| Author | Message | ||
     proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 124.106.182.201 |
I was deceived by "Church Leaders" when… (Add your experience here) I was deceived by "Church Leaders" when: 1. They baptized me to be saved. 2. They baptized me to become a member of a "Christian church". 3. They laid their hands on me and said that when the Holy Spirit fills me I will speak in tongues and that it's a confirmation of my "born again experience". 4. They encouraged me to become a member of a "Christian church" by attending Sunday services to testify my "born again experience". 5. They invited me to join a small group for Bible study and "discipleship" to become a "loyal follower of Christ". 6. They encouraged me to join "inner healing and deliverance" to be set free from "bondage of sin". 7. They told me to "confess my sins" to their "Church leaders" that I may receive "healing". 8. They taught me that Christ's disciple is an "active participant" and not a "passive spectator" in a "Christian church". 9. They prayed for me to receive the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" and later instructed me to join their "Church ministry" to practice my "gifting". 10. They taught me that the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" must be exercised daily to "edify my spirit". 11. They trained me to "fast and pray" to receive "anointing" for any "work of God" and to receive a sign that it's "God's Will". 12. They encouraged me to give 10% of any money that I receive to their "Christian church" because it's a "blessing from God" and said that God will bless me a hundred times more. 13. They trained me to "evangelize" and to reach out the "lost" (sinners) by using a "salvation" booklet from their "anointed Pastor". 14. They invited me to attend youth camps, retreats, convergences, conferences, and outreaches as a pledge of my "allegiance to God and His Church". 15. They trained me to "disciple" "new Church members" by using the cell group system for me to "advance God's kingdom". How about you? How did the anointed "Church Leaders" deceive you? | ||
| jayhernandez Intermediate Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 482 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
16. They invited me to join in for "Latino Missions", so I packed bag, moved south and I didn't hear anything about it the whole time there. | ||
| pilgrim Advanced Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 606 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
17. I WAS TRICKED THROUGH THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF SPIRITUAL COVER BY MAN TO OBEY THE LEADERS AS IF THEY WERE CHRIST.(ANTICHRISTS IN MY BELIEF AND OPINION) I just want to let you know that the root of the problem was that I was forced to turn the leaders into my God. I did not want it to be that way but I either had to let the leaders be my God or I had to leave. In all mayor decisions in my life the final decision were made by the leaders. This decisions included changing jobs, moving location, going to a Christian conference, or when to return from a Christian conference,what type of career to follow, including getting married etc. When I felt that what God was telling me was different to what the leaders said God was telling them. I had to obey the leaders even if I felt I was disobeying God as a result. To clarify I just want to say that when I said that I was forced to turn the leaders into my God I meant that I was tricked into believing that I had to obey them completely and that to disobey the leaders was equal to disobeying God. My ex shepherd once said that the church is like an army and in a war situation in the army you do not have the time to ask questions and sometimes if they tell you to move you just have to obey even if you do not understand why or you might get shot as a result. She said that was the same in the church I just have to obey and do as I was told even if I did not understand why or I might get shot spiritually. Now I that my life had been trashed by this false doctrines I realise to my peril that I was tricked to obey the leaders as if they where Christ so I followed false Christs in my beliefs and opinion instead of the real Christ. I felt like a real robot. I learn through this evil system to die to self to the point that I became willing in my heart to get married without feeling any physical attraction or feeling in love. I believe that the leaders did not allowed me to get married to a man that I submitted because I was honest and I made stupid the mistake of telling the truth by confessing that I was very much in love with this man. My pastor said that if they allowed me to get married I would love this man more than God. I feel that nobody else should go though this experience. At least they should not go through this alone. | ||
| proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 124.106.195.69 |
18. They said that I have the "gifting" and "calling" of a "prophet" because I took a spiritual gifts exam prepared by these "church leaders". Pilgrim, I somehow understand your situation because I was also victimized by the "pray for the right person" principle. The "pastor" who taught me to pray for the right partner in life deceived me again when I "submitted" to him the name of a girl that I have been praying for then. He only discouraged me when he said that it's not "God's will". He wanted to choose the right girl for me. 19. They said that I must "pray for the right person" first and get a sign from God that it's "God's will" before I choose a partner in life. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1382 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
20. They told me over and over again, that i am a "leader" and that i will do "great things for God". This led to a waste of many years of my life on the "missionfield", with nearly no spiritual, financial or emotional support, after wasting many years of my life sitting every free hour in conferences, prayer meetings, leader meetings, counsleing sessions, church services, etcetc feeding their ego instead of doing something with sense and real purpose. | ||
| speakword2004 Senior Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 1504 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
Robert I hereby appoint you as teh first Austrian Apostle to Factnet. Arise Sir Robert and do great things for God by not keeping your mouth shut, refusing them the oppurtunity to cut your bollocks off and by continuing to challenge the hidden agenda of the cultic leadership that has hijacked a Christian Church. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2933 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.155.55 |
Well of all the numbered points #17 is the winner by Pilgrim, that is the spirit behind this thing. Most of the earlier numbered points presented are pretty weak and full of half truths I even disagree with some of them. robert maybe point 20 is actually accurate? | ||
| philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1072 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
I am concerned that this thread is muddling truth and deception and thus may confuse some people who view it. Not everything listed on the first thread is bad. Maybe this is what 40days is saying. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1633 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.101.173 |
proveallthings, did some or all the things that you listed in your first post take place in an EN church? | ||
| speakword2004 Senior Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 1507 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
The mark of a cult is to muddle truth and deception. | ||
| proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 58.69.26.180 |
ulyankee, yes it was my experience under "maranatha leaders" who became my leaders during my VCF days and it was enforced too much | ||
| proveallthings Junior Member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 58.69.26.180 |
40: numbered points presented are pretty weak and full of half truths because it was my own experience, you don't have to agree with them. Are you telling me now that you know the whole truth? philiprosenthal: this thread is muddling truth and deception and thus may confuse some people which may become a reality when people here now consider a person's experience as the truth that's why I said that you 'add your experience'. Are you forgetting that everything here is about a person's own experience? Not everything listed on the first thread is bad because you see them as good for you but the points become bad when deception is added to the extreme. I ask you now to list your own bad experience, but how will you respond when others see them as good? Try it. | ||
| jayhernandez Intermediate Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 487 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
Hey Prove, you need to shrug off Phil and his buddy from time to time. Once known...they are buddies. Which isn't really a problem (I have no personal bone with it), but I wasn't surprised to see him post after that comment made about the truthfulness of ALL the numbers. Its been good understanding who is who- people change- and after a while you'll see it. For now though, they know you're new and they are going to try to let you know who is boss. As soon as you think you've made friends and start to speak more openly then they'll try to sit you back down. Most of the people here know each other and are much older then I, and probably you. So they think they have some special corner here at factnet. They certainly have a special experience with Maranatha/EN, and I totally respect that, but somehow that trickles into factnet... somehow they feel Varsity! I really do respect their age, and even some experience with EN, but what I'm saying above is different though. For example when I came here after leaving EN I found people that knew how long EN was cracking up. I didn't need confirmation for what I had gone through... I knew what I had gone through! But I didn't know what someone like my bro had gone through- the depths of my experience there was not as deep as his. So yea, they are important and I can admit that- but it's been hard getting them to the opposite with acknowledging (not confirming, who the heck need your confirmation) the new comers. They don't know it, but they are quite harsh. Kinda like I'm being right now. So when I came here I learned a bunch- there no reason to take away from any of that, and I wont, but what I'm saying now is different. (I know I'm totally putting you old timers on the spot here, but don't you do what you tried to do to me to everyone who comes here. You know how many new people have come and you've run them off? I know of two myself! I knew that what I needed to say was more important then some of you- and I stayed with it. I ended up putting Peacemaker at the end of my posts just to get people to relax around me. So chill!) Your experience is fine Prove, heck the only reason EN haven't changed is cause 'TIMES are just too good right now'- the EN experience is too plump for some to see it. Never-the-less, stay with it and you'll see who here at factnet really understands the depth of what you say. And there are some, if not most. One moment you'll speak with firmness and its muffled, other times you'll speak softer and your jumped on as if your a little fuzzy bunny rabbit. Remember older people can be stubborn and it gets worse with age. They can be like teenagers. Heck we all can! I know you must have a fresh look at things. Jay | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 656 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
Why you little..... Just kidding Jay. I kind of agree with 40 and Phil R.that some of the original points are not always bad things, but I guess what you're saying is that in the context of prove's experience, they were, and sometimes the regulars' don't always express understanding of that. There might be a good point in there, but you're right, it sounds a little harsh coming from you. Some folks can definitely come down on you when you least expect it around here. One great thing about the internet is everyone here can bash or correct anyone they wan't and not have to worry about getting socked in the nose, sent to their room, or anything else. With that spunk you're showing there I perceive you to be a real leader. God has a call..... Oh never mind. I'm not making light of anyone's story. just lightening the mood a little. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2934 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
You guys have had two years to get your stories right. Jay you said your experience with EN was very nominal about 2 years a go. Concerning Proves original post? 1. They baptized me to be saved. 2. They baptized me to become a member of a "Christian church". 40: hmmmmmmm Jay you said in another post that those who did not speak in tongues were viewed as not being Christian? hmmmmm, well that is news to me. You know I think I will join the Baptist church and tell them to get rid of the dunking technique and go with sprinkling I wonder how that will go over? I hope they don't say to me that perhaps this is not the place for you. Prove why not just start a thread on why Evangelical Christianity sucks in general. The pastor was giving me tips on how to evangelize with a little booklet? big deal, go read #17. | ||
| jayhernandez Intermediate Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 488 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
Hey xman- thanks for trying to lighten the mood. Thats always a needed thing around here. Proves 1 & 2 1. They baptized me to be saved. 2. They baptized me to become a member of a "Christian church". doesn't surprise me. I never heard this in the EN I was part- maybe I wasn't there long enough either. But I have heard this lately from a friend of mine here in town. He wanted to get baptized after have been saved for a couple years and then his pastor told him he needed to do it to become a member. He asked why and said that its required for all members. He didn't understand it then but when he told me about it I asked him "what if you were baptized some place else, but wanted to become a new member. He didn't know so he asked- he came back even more confused. He said that it didn't matter if you were baptized some place else. The thing is that theirs is "the only Church" and only their method is valid. Come to find out that they are a speak-in-tongues group and they too have a view that without it you're not Christian, or a well uninformed one at that. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2938 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.154.144 |
proveallthings perhaps there is a cultural divide between us. You talk about VCF a lot. Are you American or Phillipino or whatever? What general area are you from? Your English is excellent so I have assumed your American. The Phillipine aspect of EN has been presented as being more enlightened then the Maranatha based USA core but now I wonder? Anyway please get back to us. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2119 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
You don't need to be baptized to be saved. Salvation does not require baptism of the Holy Spirit or water to be saved. Only what Jesus has done on the cross. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2120 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
Attending sunday service does not testify of being born again. When you looked into the bible , the christian people were scattered. they can't even meet on sunday or have church on sunday. Some even meet at Solomon's porch . Most of the leaders are in Jerusalem and they travel from one place to another. But the sheep/christians are scattered all over the world due to persecution. Not everybody can be discipled , HOW ? when they are scattered . And yet, thousands upon thousands are saved on those days. What provealthings posted is "Churchianity NOT Christianity". | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1390 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
the point is: do i need to PROOF to my church or ro a person that i am born again, by holding rituals? i dont mean anything bad with the word "ritual" because there are certainly some biblical "rituals" for christians. my point however is do i really need to proof to someone that i am born again? The bible tells us to be ready for every good work and to grow in the fruit of the spirit. and by my LOVE people from outside of the church will understand my relation to God and Jesus himselve. and these things are widely forgotten. instead the poisened substitute for the fruit of the spirit is charisma (not the biblical charisma, but the personal carisma [my effect on people]. the substitute for real love has is a superstitual nice talk, cheering ("you are called to do great things", "oh how great your spirit is", "you are a mighty man/ woman of God", etcetc...) and clap someone on his back ("champ...") and a totaly perverted and evil system of punishements and (fake) rewards by people who think they are in authority over others... therefore we see so many people in "leadership" who are characterly evil, unbalanced, weird. they may atract others for a while... but what did i read one day in a smart book? "you may fool some people about your real charakter for a while... but you will NEVER fool EVERYone about your real charakter forever!" everything will be revealed. in this life or in the next! Thank God! | ||
| proveallthings Junior Member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 124.106.176.74 |
Ginger, I agree with you that our Lord Jesus came to save sinners. His preaching was not about baptism. His gospel was not about membership to a church. The term Christian was first used to mock the early disciples of Jesus; it was not an institutionalized religion. The disciples were not under any covering of an anointed leader who must confirm their salvation. Ministries were there to carry each others burden; not to be used as a measurement of loyalty and active participation. The disciples were called to be saints, called unto the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord. Paul even said: "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:17-18) | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2941 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.242.108 |
Woof! | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 672 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
Maybe you're right about the cultural divide 40. This (factnet) is supposed to be a place where one can come and post and receive help. support, healing, or some other positive thing relative to their cult experience. Because of this, I try and not question the experiences of those coming out of EN anymore, though they often are far different from mine. When I look closer at those points and compare them to my EN experience and knowledge, I find I can very loosely categorize them. 1-3,14 and 15 are things that I was (and most Christians are) encouraged to do, but the conclusion or reason is not the same. For instance, I was told to be baptised, but I had already been saved for 2 weeks so it had nothing to do with baptism. Also the purple book does not say we must be baptised to be saved. 5-10,13 seem to be biblical, but perhaps twisted around in prove's experience. Afew are things they did that were just wrong like #12, and parts like 11 (needed a sign) never happened. It sounds as though a lot of good and biblical things are encouraged here, but prove's experience has soured him/her on the church, Christianity, and the bible. To conclude that all of those things were deception on the part of the leaders tells me prove's pastor must have presented them much differently than they were presented to me, and in a way that was intentinally twisted from the Bible's true meaning in talking about them, because they are often clearly in the Bible and/or potentially good and sometimes necessary things. If I thought I was deceived, and I don't think it was initially intended but in the end it happened, it would concern EN's constant preaching on family and covenant which became meaningless once we stopped feeding them money and needed help ourselves when we lost our pastor. We were dumped unceremoniously on the spot. Haven't heard word one from one of my EN covenant "family" since after many years of faithful service and commitment. Fortunately, I am confident God will not forget our sacrifice and service, just as He promised so I'm better off now I suppose. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1478 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.133.84.220 |
X- Man, How did you lose your pastor?} | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2121 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
5. They invited me to join a small group for Bible study and "discipleship" to become a "loyal follower of Christ". Xman, you don't need to be part of a small group of bible study or be discipled to become a loyal follower of Christ. Its unbiblical. Jesus indeed said that Go make disciples, under that also He said, Go heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers. Thats part of discipleship, has any of the VCF/EN done that ? NONE. God is not moving in any miracles among them. So what discipleship are they discipling on ? Instead 1.they teach people about leadership which is ruling and controlling over people's lives. 2. They only preach about giving, giving, giving , till you have no more to give. There is no blessings when you give to VCF/EN. 3.People are so insecure, they spend their money on brand name clothes, showing off because thats what the pastors brag about. 4. EN/VCF spend money of church "church entertainment" , they have to do that because they Holy Spirit is not moving in their midst any longer. So they have to deceived the people as if the Holy Spirit is there, substituting His gift to VCF/EN entertainment. An endless display of celebrities. 5. The whole church has become a country club, showing off clothes, wealth (though they are very much in debt), socializing and they call this discipleship. 6. Their bible studies has turned into how to make money business, ala Joey Bonifacio. Rarely was the bible was even crack open. 10. They taught me that the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" must be exercised daily to "edify my spirit". what gift ? faking the speaking of tongues ? faking the prophesy ? 10. They trained me to "fast and pray" to receive "anointing" for any "work of God" and to receive a sign that it's "God's Will". The Pharisees fast and pray too and anointed with what ? you don't need to fast and pray to received anointing .Its unbiblical. People only fast and pray to know what is God's will not to force our will on God, people also fast and pray for a breakthrough , not anointing. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2122 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
Here is a thought. If giving your tithe to EN/VCF will truly bless you, how come that any business venture that Joey Bonifacio entered into failed ? or any business venture that Greg Feste entered into failed ? how come God is not blessing their business ? Or even Phil Bonasso business failed with his travel agency. How come God is not blessing them. Or even looked at Rice Brookes debt, more than a million dollars. having that much debt, you call that blessings ? If God is not blessings any of these leaders, what makes people think they will be blessed when they give to them ? These people are more of a Ichabod than being called blessed. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 674 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
ginger- I know that and I had 5 in a couple of categories. I do think that the early church met house to house but I'm no historical expert. That's what I'd heard. Obviously I don't think you need to meet in a cell group or home group to be saved or anything else. I just think there's some precedent for home meetings. Copper- Our pastor had a personal situation that was of a nature he decided he needed to step aside. It was clearly the right choice for him. | ||
| proveallthings Junior Member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 124.106.176.74 |
Our experiences within VCF/MSI/EN vary because we have different "pastors" and cell leaders who have different backgrounds. I arrived at VCF when there were still few Maranatha disciples in the leadership and there was no Pentecostal experience yet. They told me everything about their history under Bob Weiner and said that they were very legalistic. Who knows how harsh their leaders were at that time? I don't have a clue but later I experienced what they were talking about and read from books that they disbanded because of cult-like practices. I was there when VLI was established and actively participated in every discussion about church history, spiritual gifts & warfare, leadership, etc. I finished the course & graduated to become a Bible teacher but my "pastor" who's "covering" me wanted me to become like him, a full time "pastor". It was the time also when I discovered their "five-fold calling", a definition for their individual leadership roles. I won't forget how they laid their hands on me to receive the "calling" that they were forcing on me. I won't forget how they convinced me to accept a contract to test that "calling". They also argued whether they would give us a monthly salary since we're already in a full time position. I won't forget how they removed the former leaders who weren't even in the leaders' meeting. Everything was a program in the leadership but those in the "inner circle" (Steve Murrell's core group) remained and only reshuffled when a controversy among the leaders become uncontrollable. The ministry of the 12 apostles was established by Jesus for the fulfillment of God's promise to Israel. What kingdom are they establishing now in VCF/EN? | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2123 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
Proveal, I am curious for what reason that they were removed from leadership. I am also appaled that they ARGUE if people should get paid for their full time position. What they expect you to work for free ? Then expect you to obey them ? Thats not servanthood. Thats SLAVERY. I know about steve Murrell's core group reshuffling, we saw that happened with Ariel and bernard marquez. We also saw that with Luther Mancao. Curious, who else were reshuffled ? It sure pays to kiss up to Steve M. You will never get fired, no matter if you steal or destroy people's lives. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1391 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
I finished the course & graduated to become a Bible teacher but my "pastor" who's "covering" me wanted me to become like him, a full time "pastor". It was the time also when I discovered their "five-fold calling", a definition for their individual leadership roles all the courses and the educational things in groups like EN are SENSELESS. personally there might be subjects in the courses, that can possible help to grow (i remeber HP and WoF bibleschool, and i must admit that much of the material was ok and well and helped me a lot, while other things where strongly influenced by NOLR ideas). but the courses are of NO value outside the group. i did and graduated from several different bibleschools (WoF, HP), i was a ordained pastor (with certificate...), i was teaching at bibleschool many years, i was pioneering a church for many years. all these things did and do NOT count! they are of no value outside the system, because no other church accepts these in-group-educational things. and within the group nothing of these things count either. the pastor at the local EN church here told me that i "can serve my way up" if i wish. It was an invitation, but i take it as sarcasm. i was serving "my way up" already before he became part of our church for many years. i was a ordained pastor in the churchmovement and i was in leadership and a pioneering pastor for and with that churchmovement. so i was good enough to pioneer a church, but later i should start again to "serve my way up"? so why does all this not count within the movement/ group? because i was not on party line. i was not bowing before the false apostles and their false leaders. i was not "submitive enough". i was critzising things that where not right. i did not shut up when they wanted me to shut up. i did not support their ideas of a centralized "motherchurch" with many "sattelitechurches". i was not bowing. so the in-group-educations and the in-group-titles are worth NOTHING. if anyone from EN reads here: if you think, that they tread you based on your talents, education, "anointing", service, heart, "ordination", character - forget it. try to mention things that are not right (if you can see them), try to bring change, try to walk honest before your God and your conscience regarding moral issues, do not bow before them, do nut "submit" under them (the way they demand it), stop beeing a "yes-sayer": the will kick your butt. the measure for "rewards" within EN is a strange and nearly arbitarial system based on two things: - "spiritual impression" leadership has about you (how much harm this can cause) - your ability to deny yourselve and to "submit" to them at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you have done courses, seminars, bibleschools: they dont care. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2943 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.147.23 |
Robert: - your ability to deny yourselve and to "submit" to them at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you have done courses, seminars, bibleschools: they dont care. Roberto, that's because at the end of the day Kool-Aid Time will always trump Serve-the Lord Time. OH, YEAAHH! | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 675 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you have done courses, seminars, bibleschools: they dont care. Here is a question. Who are they? I have to say, at a local level I never felt that way. There is little question in my mind that amongst the members of my churches, we really cared for each other like a big family, and that included the pastor(s) despite the rest of the problems. Somewhere up the ladder, though, and I don't exactly know where, this family feeling gets lost. Where is that exactly. How far up does it go before it becomes a buisness instead of a church. That's what I wonder today. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 823 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
When you get to the point that you are submitting your life to the leaders instead of listening to the Lord yourself, you are to far up the ladder. From what I saw, to be a leader in EN you could either take the classes or not... didn't matter. There were more important factors in who became a leader: willingness to obey leadership, wealth, professional athlete status, political influence.... Many of the "pastors" who were professional athletes never took any of the "required" classes. They were just put directly into the pulpit. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1479 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.131.108.104 |
Hi All, This is a sad end, to all the hopes that we had when we first came into these groups, MCM/MSI/EN. We all wanted to please God, we read those scriptures about His kingdom. We had Him in our hearts and yet succumbed to the power of man, the traditions of men. The ascent was subtle, easy and slow, we were told we were doing well , by those we believed to be righteous, and doing God's work. If one was woken from this stupor, and then told the truth to others . Those who awoke and spoke were slandered, shunned, labeled as the devil and given the left foot of fellowship. The Word talks about the violent taking the Kingdom by force, as A.E. Houseman said, " What if the sickness is your soul ?" He can repair you, and help you stand again and follow Him, in Truth and in the Light. May God give us eyes to see and ears to hear what He is saying, and the grace to respond.} | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2944 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.44.3 |
Well Robert I reread what you wrote and it is obvious why you had problems, you said:i did not support their ideas of a centralized "motherchurch" with many "sattelitechurches". i was not bowing. 40: My guess is you supported the idea of autonomous independent churches which were equal (at least after a period of time)? They don't want that, they want a feudal system. People running this thing would not be to keen on your ideas Robert. Mother church and those running it have authority over satellite churches every time. With that model if a satellite church becomes succesfull they can replace the pastor with one of their friends or yes men any time they want. They can steer the money and local church talent away from the satellite churches and to the mother church where they can make them over into their own image. An example of this would be Phil Bonnasso and the L.A. area, no wonder he is going back there. In Tiks blog look at how Phil was consistently undermining Jake by siphoning away financial support and star members of Jakes church group by using a Mother Church/Satellite mentality. You may be able to negate some of the negatives of this type of regional system if you live far enough away from the main church center. If your in L.A or Nashville and considered a trouble maker or you have something they want to give to their friends? Your out of luck I bet. | ||
| john_r_jones Senior Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 2193 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
It seems to me this is the essence of Paul's letter to the Galatians, "Who has bewitched you...?" Paul considers this foolishness to allow themselves to be subborned by a mother church into legalism. Jonesee | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2945 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.44.3 |
In a way the MCM/MSI/EN thing is really an Anti-Protestant ministry in philosophy, mindset and reality (at least in how they wield their authority). In the past I would have vehemently denied this. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2946 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.154.13 |
Okay robert_unknown wins my dumkopf award award after Brittney this week. Now we love him but the award must be given. You say why? This 40 is a nut, which may be true but look at this! http://www.everynation.org/en/church-directory/north-america/united-states/tennessee.html Now when you click on this link scroll down the various churches. You will see a name at the top saying Senior Minister, under that you see names next to the title Satellite Pastors! I rest my case. Our loveable robert_unknown was saying I don't like being a Satellite Pastor I don't like the set up! Go with the PROGRAM ROBERT you rebellious twit!  How dare you Roberto! Dumbkopf (that is the American spelling)  | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2131 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
Geez, It looked like Rice is way over his head being the Senior Pastor on all of it. I do wonder how mess up those finances are now. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1393 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
Well Robert I reread what you wrote and it is obvious why you had problems, you said:i did not support their ideas of a centralized "motherchurch" with many "sattelitechurches". i was not bowing. 40: My guess is you supported the idea of autonomous independent churches which were equal (at least after a period of time)? They don't want that, they want a feudal system. well Paul Daniel supported and based the HisPeople movement on the idea of intependent churches, that are equal and work together under an organizaitonal umbrella (HP International) to share resources, etcetc... I had a long talk with him about this, because the local leadership here in Innsbruck wanted us to think that HP works like a feudalistic system (they didnt say so, but at the end it was like this). basicaly, they anounced that HP Insbruck is "the motherchurch" and we all are sttelites. this led to certain strange things: my celleaders have been on the list of their cellgroups. they wrote letters to my churchmemebrs and asked them to join their church (membership), they asked us to pay tithes from bibleschool income (besides the fees for the printed materials), pay part of a salary of one of their eployees, etcetc... on the other side decisions where made for the whole region and all the churches, without any involvement of the HP pastors of the region (ie conferences, dates, speakers, retreats...). So there was no team work. There was no equality. There was no acceptance of autonomy of the other churches. it was basicaly an idea that the former pastor followed and preached - so his leaders and his church believed this idea (besides him knowing that PD did not support it). he pronounced everywhere that he is the apostle for middle-europe and we are "his leaders" and our churches "his satelite churches". fact is many of the churches where founded WITHOUT him even beeing involved. No churches/ pastors got suported from the Innsbruck church. Much of this was underlined by the false submission heresy. I am not angry about this, because there havent been any resources and there has been some wrong people in wrong positions unfortunately, but i am angry about the false and abusive picture that got painted over many years and that many of my friends here still share: the idea of a pyramidal, hierarchial and feudalistic church structure. This was a big struggle between us (me, another HP Pastor from southafria, who has been in Europe for some years and the Innsbruck churches leadership). I was then blackmailed as a problem (thats at least the impression i got) and there was some stupid talk about the other pastor (Pastor X doesnt want to submit – he is rebellios... etcetc...). Our NON-SUBMISSION was a big problem for the guys here. It was even an emotional problem for a while. They had a lot to think. I do know that the rejection that my family and i had to experience later was probably based on my rejection of this feudalistic idea. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1394 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
I must say, that EN in the begining did NOT show signs of the same problem. The idea that we received from EN was like the idea PaulDaniel shared, about several autonomous churches gathering together under the umbrella/ roof of a bigger organisation to fullfill the call of God better. Only later, when i got to know what happened in Africa and when i saw how they dealt with churches who wanted to leave EN (specially with one here in Austria) i understood that the structures are different on the paper, perhaps, but hte church live, or the real life as a movement, is quite similar to a feudalistic system with popes, dukes, kings, etc... Paul Daniels, as far as i know, and what he told me personally during many telephone calls and personal talks, NEVER suported feudalism as a form of church gouvernance when it comes to a regional or international level. I know ther have been authoritarioan issues in his local church. I know that Morris and Eckleben in Europe complained about some things. But i personally havbe never experienced him as authoritarioan or abusive. The most important is, that he told me that HP is building a FLAT structure and not a pyramide structure. No sattelite churches crap! However – we know what happened to him, and how they got rid of him! The bylaws in EN, specially the one, where the „aspotolic leadership“ can interfere in the local churches and set pastors in and out of ministry is already one proof that EN works feudalistic and does not suport autonomous churches. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1395 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
With this little background information i can answer the first question in a better way: Here is a question. Who are they? I have to say, at a local level I never felt that way. Thats most of the EN leaders that i know. First the leaders on a local level, namely in the Austrian or better Innsbruck HP/ EN church. I think they never forgave me or maybe never understood, that the way and intention how they tried to build (feudalistic) was NOT suported by HP. So all my education was worthless. When we came back from the missionfield, totally burned out, they did not even introduce us to the church (we helped to build this church before we left to the missionfield and still have many friends there), and they never helped us as a couple or family to come over the burnout and to feel part of the church again. There has simply been no communication. The last part of my church (after a split about beeing with EN or not) was led by them and another guy from the region where my church was. I was not involved in anything anymore from one day to another (before we went back we had different agreements) , and i was totaly cut of from the church. I must say, that i was in such a bad shape, that i could not take responsabilty, and i am thankfull that they took over at this time. But what was very hurting, was the fact, that for several years no one of the leadership did not even talk to us. From an international level – everything has changed. PaulDaniel was not there anylonger. He was always suporting us as a friend and i must say, that i have him in good memory. But from the international official representatives, there was nothing. No reacion on emails. No interest about what we did (I remember Nasso, just turning and walking away from me when i wanted to show him some pictures about our work). However – there have been people in EN who really cared. I have good friends who where misionaires for EN for many years. Another person who was very close to Nasso earlier also became a friend, and i really mean this. In Europe however, the people who are in charge, within EN, have propably seen me always as a trouble maker and a problem perhaps. Therefore the relation was never really growing. Its just a fact, that the HP bibleschool, the WoF bibleschool, ENLIL or whatever is of no value outside of EN, and its of value within En only, if you accept their rules and their ideas. So in my opinion the price is too high. A friend of mine was doing ENLI in the USA for a year or so, and he spent so much money for it. When he came back, there was just no possibility for him to do anything with it. MPD did not work for him (it doesnt work in Europe anyhow), and soon he had to go back to a secular work (which is not bad in my opinion). | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1396 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
on a local level there is much encouragement in becoming a fulltimer, doing this and that school and seminar. even on an international level there is this encouragement (which i find strange: ie why does a succesfull youth pastor need to do ENLI?...) But at the end its NOT the education that counts. At the end its the grace of the leaders that lifts you up into the heavens of fulltime minstry and leadership or the wrath of the same leaders that kicks you down into the hell of standing there with a crapy educations thats worth nothing outside EN and beeing without job, but with a load of condemnation and despair... | ||
| proveallthings Junior Member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 210.213.221.69 |
robert_unknown, I agree with you that VLI or ENLI is useless outside VCF/MSI/EN. Every "church" program that Steve or Rice founded in this movement is a mere copy of the old Constantine's in hoc signo vinces (in this sign you shall conquer) agenda. They are simply using the cross as an excuse to lord over other person's faith. Constantine has his own army. Steve or Rice has their "Joel's Army" too. Constantine has his own patrician class while Steve or Rice use the "inner circle" brand borrowing the term from the Bible just to define their own core group. You may call the structure of VCF/MSI/EN as ladder-type (hierarchy) chain of command or flat chain of command (still top to bottom but the span of control is wide). The flat structure is similar to a net (to catch fish). Both structures are for "discipleship" with a purpose "to reach and rule" the nations. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1498 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
excllent posting, prove, and sorry for the late response. i didnt see this earlier, sorry! i do agree with what you say. hierarchy is an important thing in groups like EN, and the former pastor from the IBK church got drawn very strongly to EN, in my personall opinion it had to do with the fact, that he could sell himselve as the man for the region, and they aknowledtged this (based solely on his word, but not on facts). excelent thought however with the "in this sign you shall conquer"!! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Junior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Oh, yes, my goodness, how horrible of Constantine to liberate the Roman empire from paganism and destroy the powers that had been torturing Christians for three hundred years. Yes, my oh my, that was a terrible "agenda", wasn't it? Seriously, one should really not accept the superficial trite chestnuts of post-reformation "history" when making analogies with a truly insidious bunch of self-appointed hucksters. | ||
| ulyankee New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.112.158 |
However, even if you don't think that's a good or valid historical comparison, IMHO proveallthings' description of Broocks, Bonasso, Murrell & Co's modus operandi and agenda is otherwise dead on. I personally think they compare more to the Moravians under Zinzendorf, even though there are groups who are much more overt about it, including the crowd that Bob Weiner is running around with these days. The Moravians did reform. But only after Zinzendorf died, and they almost ran out of money. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1499 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
constantine and his military succeses are a very controversial thing,as well as the historical reports about it. i dont think, that there is enough place here, and to less knowledgeabout all the facts, to discuss this properly. i think the analogy is not so bad, because, prove wanted to point out, that vision, signs and symbols often get abused to lord over people and their faith. thats the point at least, that i could read out of his posting, which is a good point in my opinion. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Junior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Well, I won't belabor the point. Suffice to say that Constantine did not use his vision to "lord it over people", he was already was ruler over the western part of the Roman empire and was one of the Roman "tetrarchs" and was already engaged in a civil war for primacy in the Empire. He had his vision in 312 AD and wound up immediately thereafter defeating is primary rival in the West, Maxentius, in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. In so doing he became the "Augustus" of the West. Constantine had, in 306, granted toleration of the Christian faith and restitution of property to the Church in Gaul, Spain and Britain. It is, IMO, telling that in 313, along with his co-emperor Licinius, he issued the Edict of Milan which extended the toleration and restitution of confiscated properties throughout the empire. Constantine never ruled the Church, but understood it to be an important stabilizing influence in the empire. I don't know, consider if such persecution existed in the West today, would a liberator be viewed as a villain or a saint? (Message edited by mcmstaff78 on January 12, 2008) | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1500 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
as i said, Constantin, his wars and the "tolerance edict" are very controversial subjects, and there are different historical reports and interpretations about it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleranzedikt_von_Mailand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan some say, constantine was not born again at all, and the toleration of Christianity along with other religions was a inner-political necesarity, rather than a result of his faith. therefore its nearly impossible to discuss about it at all. however: Christianity, war and politics are also very controversial in context, and Christianity until today has not found consense about these three. the Austrian Emperor Joseph II. also wrote a tolerance edic on 13. Oktober 1781 (along with other emperors throughout history), which stopped the persecution of protestant minorties in Austria, that lasted until this time. I would never call him a Saint because of this! Nor will i about Constantine. |
