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trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3043
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.11
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 3:07 pm: | 
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I'm going to throw this out there for discussion if anyone cares to talk about it.
One theme that goes through a great number of religions, myths, and legends is the idea that "all is one." I never really understood this concept until recently. At least, I think I have come into a new understanding of it through meditation and something I think of as a neurological perceptional phenomena, that is, the ability to identify with the 'awareness' that observes my thoughts and experiences rather than the thought and experience itself.
Anyway here is how I am thinking about it ...
1.Science tells us that the universe is 'one big thing', that everything from atoms to galaxies are systems of organized energy interdependent on each other.
2.This 'one big thing' is an enormous cloud of energy that is in a constant state of change and is therefore 'nothing in particular' for any length of time. Things come into being and things go out of being constantly. Nothing 'is' for any significant length of time before it is destroyed and re-emerges as something else. The result is that nothing, and I mean not a single thing, is here long enough in the great scheme of things that you could say they really 'exist' with any 'permanence' except the entire “system of the universe” itself.
A lot of ancient myths, legends, and teaching have been telling us just this very thing. That is, 'All is One' and 'Existence is Illusionary'. All is one in that everything is part of a larger whole and existence is illusionary because on the time-scale of the universe the entirety of human history will be so small as to be a 'non-event' within the system itself.
3.I think our realization of this is complicated by the fact that our perception of the surrounding universe is a virtual construct manufactured by our brains using the data our sense organs provide it. It isn't 'real' in any sense of the word and the depiction of the universe we get is highly edited, redacted, and manipulated by our brains to such an extent that if 10 people witness one event you will get 8,9, 10 or even more different stories about what happened. I think another stumbling block in understanding is one of scale. We are only conscious of a very small area of the universe. Our perception of it is limited by many things but mostly by the brevity of our existence. It's a bit like trying to write a book report on War and Peace when all you have is a corner torn from a single page. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3044
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.11
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 3:08 pm: |
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4.The human mind and all of the concepts it creates (including these) exist only within the space between our ears and as such are separate from the reality we seek to perceive and understand. These concepts (even science) while useful in helping us understand the universe around us are separate from that universe and is therefore limited to helping us understand our concepts about it.
5.Nature or The Universe is something that is constantly remaking itself into something else. Nothing is permanent, nothing stays the same, and nothing, absolutely nothing, is as it seems to be to our sensory-reconstructed-virtual reality.
6.If the above is true then what does that tell us about religion and religious speculation?
I think it tells us that the numerous concepts of 'god' we humans entertain are no more real than any other story we have manufactured. That our grandiose ideas of cosmic significance as 'children of god' or 'eternal spirits' of some kind are just the fleeting dreams and hopes of living things that know they will die and pass away into the void as an entire species before the second hand of the universe's clock can move one full tick.
7.Things come into existence and out of existence constantly as energy rearranges itself in the universe. We are no different, we are part of the universe. Accepting this should liberate one from the fear and terror of death and instill a deeper appreciation of life and all it entails but mileage may vary. I find it a comforting and useful way of thinking about it all at any rate. |
nikita
Intermediate Member
Username: nikita
Post Number: 442
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 76.29.64.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 8:29 pm: |
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suppose everything is..as you state above. Nothing permanent, everything remaking itself into something else, fleeting dreams and hopes of living things, and everything else that you said. Well the one one big question I guess is ...why?
Why the living things? Why the universe? Why the energy? What are your thoughts as to why there is a universe or a living thing that could even perceive of a virtual reality?
I don't think that my idea of cosmic significance as a Christian or child of God,is anymore grandiose, (and maybe much less) than your idea of the universe. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3045
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.33
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 9:02 am: |
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"Why [insert subject]?"
I think the why is a mystery and may very well remain as such. And that is ok. I have come to think the thing to do is to accept the mystery without having to force it into one of the cookie-cutter explanations that the human imagination has produced. I recognize that none of what I said is new and is actually all been said before by several different folks in numerous traditions with different cultural trappings. I also recognize that these ideas are also products of the mind.
I have come to think that the answer doesn't lie in supernatural explanations (primarily because I can find no evidence for them) but rather cognitive science and philosophy. At this point in my life it looks like the study of consciousness and experience hold a great deal more promise in determining not only the baseline of who we are but also a method of, to borrow a Buddhist idea, escaping suffering than supernatural studies do.
As a Christian I would often puzzle over the substance of 'spirit' and my questions concerning the nature of spirit and the spirit world were never explained to my satisfaction. However, as a Christian I accepted them on 'faith'. I have come to think that what we call consciousness or awareness is this thing that has been called spirit (and therefore is not 'supernatural') and many other things. But then again, its a mystery. And now I think, rather than placing my faith in a story about how things might be, I'll just accept things as they are and see what happens.
Does the question "Why" have to be answered? If it cannot be answered then is it not better to accept things as they are? |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2268
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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it is interesting that we have this natural inclination to know the unknowable.
the desire to believe that there is more to life than suffering.
what is it that drives us to want to know something that is unknowable?
we spend our lives searching for answers only to find out that there are no answers concerning the existence of god.
it seems like a rather cruel joke.
there is already a theory of consciousness.
it is based on science and philosophy.
it is called "The Reflexive Universe" by arthur m. young.
he concludes that the building blocks of life show that they have purpose.
this purpose is the evolution of life itself.
an evolution that is as unlimited as energy is eternal. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3046
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.42
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 1:24 pm: |
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...the desire to believe that there is more to life than suffering.
Don't healthy living things always retreat from pain and seek refuge from suffering?
what is it that drives us to want to know something that is unknowable?
I don't think that an "escape from suffering" is unknowable and I don't think the "seat of our being" or our base-line identity is unknowable. Do you?
The origin of the universe? Yeah, I'd agree that is unknowable because it cannot be experienced. It is irrelevant.
we spend our lives searching for answers only to find out that there are no answers concerning the existence of god.
Then what we must do is accept what is.
Accepting the mystery of existence without needing to superimpose our "ideas" and "desires" about what it "should be" liberates us from the unsatisfiable cycle of need ... wouldn't it?
I think the secret to human spirituality is in accepting that there are no answers, refusing to make any more up, and refusing to take other people's word for it. Isn't it more logical, expedient, and elegant to explore what can be experienced without the aid of any religion, ideology, or teacher? I'm talking personal observation, meditation, and self-inquiry.
there is already a theory of consciousness.
Indeed there are many. The 'truth' of the matter can't be theorized or thought about however, only experienced. All the jibber-jabber surrounding enlightenment and awakening is like a Mime trying to teach Calculus using only a bullhorn. Unfortunately due to the nature of things ... its about as good as it gets.
Get quite, ask yourself who you really are. Are you your thoughts or what your thoughts occur to? What the heck is it that our thoughts and emotions occur to? Our ability to be aware isn't an "ability" at all ... it is what and who we are, it is the "seat of our being". Seeing the totality of your thoughts and emotions as existing inside of this awareness and recognizing that they are not "YOU" is a radicalizing experience. The more I try to talk about it the more I wish I wouldn't.
The universe may very well be one enormous intelligent cloud of energy and everything that occurs within it may be striving toward a realization of this, that is to say ...we might be the universe becoming aware of itself. Then again, we might be just animals living on a rock whose evolutionary mechanisms have crafted our perceptions and desires in such a way as they have for our survival and not for our 'understanding' of any given thing.
I am thinking at the moment that the key, no matter what it is, is in acceptance of what is. This does not mean I am suddenly against progress or human endeavor. Dealing with things appropriately requires that we first accept things as they are rather than what we "wish they were".
Does that make any sense? Do you think I should just stop trying to talk about this sort of thing?
(Message edited by TrainedObserver on September 20, 2007) |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2276
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 1:43 pm: |
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sorry TO,
i am not very clear these days.
my questions were mostly rhetorical.
i have little trouble accepting things for the way they are.
The universe may very well be one enormous intelligent cloud of energy and everything that occurs within it may be striving toward a realization of this, that is to say ...we might be the universe becoming aware of itself.
based upon what we do know, i think this is the more accurate of the two.
it is clear that the building blocks of life such as photons show that they have purpose.
this implies some sort of intelligence.
talk is cheap as they say.
what is important is our experience and the understanding thereof. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3047
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.42
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 2:42 pm: |
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i have little trouble accepting things for the way they are.
You know buddy, I've come to think this is an important if not the most important thing to learn to do.
We simply must accept the moment for what it is. In all reality ... you see ... we have no other choice.
All of our striving for things to be other than they are is the cause of our suffering and confusion.
And you know, it isn't a question of making lemonade out of lemons either. It is a fundamental acceptance of things as they are and a love of what is from the core of your being that already accepts things as they are and loves what is. It is our mis-identification with our egos, thoughts, and emotions rather than an identification with the underlying consciousness witnessing it all that is the problem. At least that is what I'm getting from the "enormous intelligent cloud of energy" at the moment. LOL!! That was a joke. I'm not really sure what is going on so I'm trying to be careful, to stay skeptical, and not to drink anyone's Kool-aid.
Have you read much Robert Anton Wilson by chance? |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2277
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 3:09 pm: |
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all you are saying is live in the moment.
which is synonymous with the eternal.
if energy is eternal, then this is how we come into contact with it.
we live in it.
this also enables us to reverse entropy.
this is the basis of new life.
when we can reverse entropy we will have understanding, a new birth so to speak.
it also answers the moral question.
i like how arthur young defined it.
In the grid's fifth substage of dominion, we have the self with the power of unlimited growth. It has learned, like the plant, how to build order against the general trend toward disorder. It can reverse entropy! This is a tremendous accomplishment. To realize what it means, suppose we could reverse the entropy at a certain spot in space. This spot would get hotter and hotter; there would be no fuel and yet it would burn. We could, as they say, use it to light a city. More than that, it would suck in unlimited energy. This would, of course, burn out any finite vehicle. Or picture it this way. If there is a hole in a balloon, the air leaks out and the balloon collapses. But if entropy were reversed, then when there was a hole in the balloon, the air would flow into the balloon, and it would not stop flowing in. Naturally, the balloon would burst. Self-reproduction under this analogy becomes a device by which the expanding balloon releases its excess by producing other balloons.
Our reason, then, for saying that the monad must distribute its excess power is an objective, mechanical one. Infinite force cannot inhabit a finite system. We have thus correlated the moral question with something that has reality apart from morality. We can define morality in terms of something other than itself.
Arthur M. Young
The Reflexive Universe
i am unfamiliar with Robert Anton Wilson. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3048
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.12
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 4:26 pm: |
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all you are saying is live in the moment.
which is synonymous with the eternal.
Well yes. The now is all that exists. I don't know that it is not 'eternal' because I can't experience the beginning or an end. But I would agree it seems to always be. All that is evident is ... now. There is no real 'past' and there is no real 'future'.
I must just be too thick to get Young. |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2279
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 5:22 pm: |
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what i think he is saying is that when you live in the moment you begin to reverse entropy.
this happens because you come into contact with the eternal, (which seems to be nothing but energy with some sort of intelligence).
this intelligence is what allows for an evolutionary process.
when we live in the moment we overcome the natural law of cause and effect.
we become the cause instead of always living with the consequences of bad choices.
we become the creator.
morality is defined by the need for the release of this energy rather than morality being defined by itself.
it is the use or misuse of the power that comes with the reversal of entropy.
he doesn't think that the real moral questions even come up until we have achieved this ability.
it took me two thorough readings and constant referencing to even begin to get what he writes.
that is where i am in my understanding, at the beginning.
Now, a peculiar thing about morality is that in however "scientific" a manner we account for it, it haunts us nonetheless...
Putting all this together, I would reason that the moral quest achieves primary importance only for a highly evolved *(fifth-stage) person. For the rest of mankind, morality is a presentiment or premonition of the importance of this at some future date - hence, the old belief in a day of judgment. The day of judgment will occur at some remote future time, when the deeds of all men will be judged. But why should there be such a long wait if there were not more deeds that we are to do in the interim? One suspects that the main point of the judgment day, even if it is a myth, is sound. There will come a time in the lives of each of us when we will go on or be destroyed, but this time will not come until we wield so much power that the misuse of it would destroy ourselves. But such postponement is no true escape. The self "knows" its destiny - confusedly perhaps, but with some kind of deeper insight. And it is very sensitive about piling up further indebtedness. It is scrupulous about paying for newspapers at self-service counters and telephone calls at friends' houses.
Arthur M. Young
The Reflexive Universe
*this is the person who has gained the use of power through a new birth or awareness etc.
this happens after the new birth occurs not simultaneously.
the power (energy) must be learned to be used. |
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