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ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
New member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.218.211.212
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:30 am: | 
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Jesus Forbids Sectarianism- NKJV Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
39But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40For he who is not against us is on our[3] side.
When I met the TT I had a firm faith in the Word of God and believed in His Son so deeply that I gave my whole exsistence to follow Him.Now since I have left the TT I dont know whats up or down.I even question the validity of the Bible and the exsistence of His Son.
So this one is for you Yoneq...
Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea... |
pat (pat)
New member
Username: pat
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.32.13.158
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 8:25 am: |
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Yes David! Many Many people that are so precious and beautiful in the sight of G-d have been caused to stumble. Many are here. Yahshua is calling US to pick one another up and heal the broken hearted and pick up the pieces. WE are to represent Yahshua and HIS convenant and Yoneg is only one little man. WE are called to establish order by means of Loving one another and establishing Yahshuas will....the kingdom. You are regenerating when you seek HIM with all your heart. Satan did not have victory over you when you continue to pursue that yearn for perfect peace and order and establish this in Tanach and the entire new covenant.
Judgement will come sadly for Yoneg untill he sets the record straight. Perhaps at some point you will speak to him face to face. |
seebehindthings (seebehindthings)
New member
Username: seebehindthings
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.174.183.111
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 3:48 pm: |
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I agree with you Pat. I have been thru some Protestant sects & visited TT (TT set me back for 3 weeks...just a 2 day stay). I have seen good and been horribly mistreated. I thought God had thrown me away. My heart was and is extremely sincere in my pursuit of God...and for God to allow such continual heartache (starting at age 4-and now I am 51) became literally unbearable for me to handle. But my near death experience at 4 yrs. old keeps pulling me through because the Jesus I saw when I died was about "eyes to see through everything" ex_yathed, just like you. Perhaps you should see Jesus standing with you and using you as his mouthpiece instead of estranged from him. The judgment for TT will happen. I am praying for the victims to be rescued and the whole thing to be exposed..what a stepford community. |
pat (pat)
Junior Member
Username: pat
Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.2.224.242
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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Dearest see behind things,
WE are heartbroken..I know. But in that broken place we are filled with Yahshua who makes us whole. If I could only heal all of the mistreated and broken people. Not one of these offfenses will be forgotten since many here are of the elect. It hurts ...the heartache is intense and can trip some precious one up and even cause us to sin but maintain your faith and be true to your heart and convictions. Yahshua is real and that faith with carry you through. |
seebehindthings (seebehindthings)
Member
Username: seebehindthings
Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.174.183.120
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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I have learned living the gospel is "a continual dying that Jesus life may be continually manifest" from Art Katz tape: Prophetic Suffering. www.benisrael.org |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 12:47 am: |
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The Parable of the Twig
There was a tree that grew alone in a field and was cared for by a very loving farmer. The tree had both strong and weak branches. The weak branches bore bad fruit. The strong branches bore good fruit. One day a twig started to grow on one of the strong branches. It was a humble twig that enjoyed being a part of a strong branch that grew good fruit. It flourished on the branch and started to grow beautiful healthy leaves. Then it started to flower and later the beginnings of one of the most beautiful fruits started to grow from the twig. At first the twig was happy to be contributing to the production of the branch and the tree overall. The tree produced healthy delicious fruit that made the farmer very happy.
However, overtime, the twig started comparing its fruit to those grown by the weaker branches on the tree. At first it felt sad that the other branches could not grow healthy fruit and wished that it could help them grow stronger. The farmer chose to prune some of these branches. And yet the twig started to think, “The farmer loves my fruit. He is happy with me and the branch that I belong to.” Then the twig started to compare it’s fruit to the fruit of other strong branches and it started to become judgmental of those branches for not having the “best” fruit. The twig started to question why the tree even bothered to grow weak branches at all? The twig started to become more and more proud and was becoming unhappy to be a part of the tree.
The twig shared its thoughts with the branch that it grew on but the branch would not listen. Therefore the twig started to compare its fruit with the fruit grown by other twigs on the strong branch. In its view, their fruit not even compare to what it produced. So finally, the twig decided, “I need to break away from the branch and the tree and flourish on my own. Maybe by not being constrained by the tree I can become my own tree and make the farmer happier.”
When the twig broke away from the tree it fell to the ground. From the ground, the twig was able to see the results of the weaker branches face to face. Over time, all the twig could see was the rotten fruit on the ground. It could no longer see any good fruit on the tree from its position on the ground. Therefore it determined in its heart the entire tree was “rotten” and unable to grow good fruit. Pride had completely taken root in the twig and it truly believed that the farmer only loved it and its fruit. The tree from which it grew was no longer loved by the farmer. It judged the tree by the dead fruit it saw and there was plenty to judge.
But something slowly started to happen that the twig’s pride prevented it from seeing. Due to being disconnected from the tree, the twig was no longer being fed by the tree. The twig had to produce food for its fruit entirely off of what it had inside it. Slowly the twig’s fruit began to shrivel. The twig was too proud to admit that it had made a mistake by disconnecting from the branch and tree. The fruit on the twig increasingly started to look like the fruit it was surrounded by on the ground. The twig was growing old and as twig with rotting fruit, it did not have the ability to grow additional branches and twigs to keep growing fruit. Now it’s fruit is withered and as rotten as anything produced by the weak branches on the tree. And still the twig’s pride declared, “I am the only true tree”.
Sound familiar?
Yoneq said, “Judge me by my fruit, if I am an apostle or not” |
anon_e_mus
Advanced Member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 759
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.204.12.151
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 10:11 am: |
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Wow! Well said! Who ARE you? Are you a former member? |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 12:59 pm: |
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Voocitd!
A parable of the Twelve Tribes! Awesome! Bravo!!! |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 4:32 pm: |
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I am the VOOCITD "Voice of One Calling in the Desert". I am in the Desert, "the World" but not "of it", and I am calling to those true believers (not those who have been corrupted by power) in the Edah of the Twelve Tribes to Come Out of Her and give up the mental, physical and spiritual bondage of Elbert Eugene Spriggs and his not so merry band of elders that have imposed their legalistic, materialistic and authoratitive practices on you. You who truly love God and his Son and wish to give yourselves to him and not a man who abuses his authority over you. And before David asks, no I do not have a religion, or people or following to further enslave your people within. I offer them what Paul and the original true apostles offer (although unlike Yoneq, I do not claim to be an apostle with the only direct line to the Word of God). God's word was good enough before Yoneq corrupted it for his own pride and materialistic uses. |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 4:44 pm: |
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On a personal level. I am someone who has been involved with the TT for over 30 years. I have family members in the TT and for that reason wish to remain anonymous due to the TT practice of demonizing and cutting-off anyone who speaks against them. I have much to say against the leadership of the TT but agree with many of you that there are many very sincere people/believers that are being controlled everyday and misguided by this false apostle. There has been just enough time that has elapsed and "fruit" that has been exposed publicly (along with internal heretic teachings) that it is possible to do exactly what Yoneq has asked for, "Judge me by my fruit". Therefore, I believe that I am following Yoneq in this "command". He has much fruit to inspect, and most of it is rotten. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 5:52 pm: |
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Can I call you VOR? (Voice of Reason)
I have been called the antithesis of a TT supporter by some and that I run people off this board.
Need I remind everyone what kind of website this is? If they want to romanticize the TT and stroke each others fantasies because they don't have the "cajones" to actually join the TT and suffer their imposed discipline/penance and ascetic lifestyle or maybe it's that they actually know in the back of their minds that the TT is "off" but like to dream that the TT are living the way "God wants them to" and we heretics shouldn't speak ill of their "institution". This is a anti-cult website but there are several TT wantabe sites that I can provide the links to if need be...
So Voice! I welcome you here! You can take some of the heat off me! (and no it's not coming from the lake of fire! )
Take the point! I got your back!!!! |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 9:19 pm: |
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Thanks Nab. And I have your back as well. Before posting here I went back to the original posting dates and read forward to today. I know the heat you have taken and the frustration that comes with beating your head up against the wall when talking to a puppet who fancies himself a puppet master (Dave Derush and most of the elder/leaders of the TT). I am very glad to have this forum to speak and listen to those who want to talk about the Twelve Tribes. By the way, I like VOR.
Voice |
fatherofaking
New member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 71.255.151.176
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 9:58 pm: |
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the call to rebellion has it's place in the history of mankind.
the TT are fond of using american history to lend legitimacy to what they do.
now it is my turn.
"In the story of America's Great Seal, a particularly relevant chapter is the imagery suggested by Benjamin Franklin in August 1776. He chose the dramatic scene described in Exodus, where people confronted a tyrant in order to gain their freedom."
"Pharaoh sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his head and a Sword in his hand, passing through the divided Waters of the Red Sea in Pursuit of the Israelites: Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Cloud, expressive of the divine Presence and Command, beaming on Moses who stands on the shore and extending his hand over the Sea causes it to overwhelm Pharaoh."
"Motto: Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"
echoes the Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. . . whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
www.greatseal.com
(Message edited by fatherofaking on January 06, 2008) |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 10:10 pm: |
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Yoneq said, “Judge me by my fruit, if I am an apostle or not”
Let's do a little fruit inspecting:
Criticism of Christianity: Fathers and mothers being too busy working to spend time with their Children
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Fathers too busy working in “Industries” and mothers too busy working in communities to spend time with their children. Young singles and other families raising their children. Families separated within and outside the communities.
Criticism of Christianity: Christians focused on “the love of money”
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Communities and elders so focused on Industries and making money enough to pay the 10% tithe to the Apostle they don’t have time to Shepard the followers or raise their children properly. These facts are documented in their own teachings and minutes from the Apostolic Meetings.
Criticism of Christianity: Christians having the same divorce rate as non-Christians.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Community members are encouraged to divorce non-believing spouses. Members who have spouses leave the TT, are encouraged to remarry.
Criticism of Christianity: Critical of Christian Leaders that fall (Baker, Swaggert, etc) and judging all Christianity based on the sins of these few.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Multiple leaders accused and at least one arrested for molesting children. Jeff Leonard was arrested in Brunswick, Ga for child molestation and extradited to Desota County, Fl (Arcadia) where he was later convicted and placed in jail. Stories of multiple others accused of child molestation and disciplined but then forgiven by the TT leadership.
Criticism of Christianity: Christian Denominations divided and divisions within churches therefore they are accused of not having the “Holy Spirit” and Christianity as a whole being an apostate church.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Many of the original TT elders (“the nucleus”) have left the communities because of differences with Yoneq. Those who were credited with having “The Holy Spirit” now accused of never having it because they disagreed with Yoneq.
Criticism of Christianity: Christian churches leading people away from God instead of towards Him. Yoneq repeatedly states Christians and anyone who openly disagrees with him or his teachings should have a millstone tied around their neck and they should be thrown in the sea or sent to the Lake of Fire.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Yoneq requires new members to denounce their Christianity before baptizing them. Many former members have not only abandoned the TT but also their belief in God altogether due to Yoneq and his controlling practices. Yoneq is personally responsible for leading thousands away from their faith in Christ and God.
Criticism of Christianity: Christian children don’t have their hearts turned towards their father. The Spirit of the Eliyah will turn the hearts of the children towards their father and the hearts of the father towards God.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: It is estimated by many ex-TT members that between 50-70% of male teens leave the TT between the ages of 14-19. Many of these teens have gone on record as “despising” their fathers and mothers for the abuse they had to endure in the TT. These teens are rejected and abandoned by their parents once the leave the TT.
Yoneq - You have been measured and found lacking.
Voice of Reason |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 10:48 pm: |
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It should be interesting to see how things unfold or rather split up and fall apart once Yoneq "kicks the bucket" and I think that could be soon...
Voice, how do you see the TT post Yoneq? You think they will elect a new "Apostle"? If they fell apart, how are they gonna divy up the spoils? How many so-called elders do you think there are that have a "golden parachute" already packed in their closet? |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 8
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:00 am: |
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naba - I am who I say I am |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:29 am: |
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Naba - I can only speculate. But sometime speculation is fun.
The TT is following the normal evolution (or I like to think of it as a devolution) of a cult. There are two potential paths for a cult. The first path is to die out with it's leader (sometimes this is tragic as in the case of Jim Jones). The second is to become more acceptable and ultimately be viewed as a mainstream religion. The original Jehovah's Witnesses were run out of town at the end of shot-guns. Now no one thinks twice when they open a church in town.
In the case of the TT, it is hard to say. I think Yoneq has a view of the end of his days. Most people his age start to think about their death and legacy. Despite what he wants us all to think, he is human. I believe he wants the TT to outlive him. This will be a problem however. Unless he finds a way to climb Mount Nebo and have God bury him, he will most likely die of a stroke or heart-attack or some other illness that will bring into question his status as Apostle, Elijah, Prophet. For those who don't know, the TT believes if an elder or leader dies there must exist some unconfessed/unforgiven sin that needs to be revealed. They have a good old fashion chum fest on the person's life, wife, children until they can uncover or fabricate some reason God would allow this to happen. Can you imagine? Who would be bold enough to stand up and say anything?........... The one who is proud enough to try to take over the reigns. (Hey DD..you man enough?)
Well, I strayed from my train of thought. So I speculate I think Yoneq has been thinking about this for some time. His shift of himself being the Eliyah to the Edah having the spirit of Eliyah allows the TT to outlive him. His teachings of the three eternal destinies tones down the former "all who are out are going to the Lake of Fire" doctrine and makes it more palatable to those on the outside. Possibly paving the way to becoming an acceptable mainstream church?? I know, they will have to come a long way to get there, but again, I am just speculating. I believe the Three Destinies teaching had an alternative motive in that it was hard to keep the slaves to keep turning the grindmill while they were distracted with the eternal status of their loved ones outside the communities. Also it helps to excuse the lack of any real effort to evangelize the lost and dying people of the world. Missionary work is quite expensive and deters from making profits in the industries.
I will have to continue this line of thought again tomorrow as I need to get some sleep. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:31 am: |
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I yam what I yam! OTAY!!!
Answer my question above! |
truth_seeker
New member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:40 am: |
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How can ex-members give up everything for the dream, or the kingdom, and then give up on it? If you really don't want to be of the world, how could you go back to it? When so much is exposed by the twelve tribes as unfruitful, how could you eat of it again? Does it taste any better than it did when you gave it all up to join the community? What do you have? Do you not have the very thing which you had before and chose to die to realizing the worth of Yahshua? |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:49 am: |
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TS - You are eating of it everyday in the TT. See my post above on how hypocritical the TT is. Their fruit is no better than that of those they slander.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Fathers too busy working in “Industries” and mothers too busy working in communities to spend time with their children. Young singles and other families raising their children. Families separated within and outside the communities.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Communities and elders so focused on Industries and making money enough to pay the 10% tithe to the Apostle they don’t have time to Shepard the followers or raise their children properly. These facts are documented in their own teachings and minutes from the Apostolic Meetings.
Twelve Tribes Fruit: Multiple leaders accused and at least one arrested for molesting children. Jeff Leonard was arrested in Brunswick, Ga for child molestation and extradited to Desota County, Fl (Arcadia) where he was later convicted and placed in jail. Stories of multiple others accused of child molestation and disciplined but then forgiven by the TT leadership.
And there is so much more. What have they given up? They have given up the physical, mental, and spiritual bondage of Elbert Eugene Spriggs and his not so merry band of elders that have imposed their legalistic, materialistic and authoratitive practices on sincere believers of God and His Son. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.75
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:03 am: |
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"How can ex-members give up everything for the dream, or the kingdom, and then give up on it?"
You give up on it when you realize your being used because of your beliefs. You will try to ignore or explain away the incredible disparities in the community between a few privileged elite and the underprivileged majority while pretending to the public that it isn't really like that.
After your baptism you will discover that much of the spontaneous worship that attracted you to the community is contrived. Your told to give a resounding "Amen" to a few who dominate the gatherings with their long winded intellectual musings completely disconnected from the reality of the life. You'll discover you've put your trust in people who tell you they are spiritual and will shepherd you into a spiritual life only to find yourself ignored and avoided and any problems you have completely trivialized.
After having worked all day you will sit in an empty dining room with a baked potato as your supper while the majority of the community retreats to the isolation of their rooms to eat with their families. You will find yourself looking forward to the Friday night meals and the short time after breaking of bread because you are just so incredibly lonely, and these are the few times you'll have to spend sitting and talking to the people you live with. The rest of the time you will be working or at gatherings or trying to make up for the continuous lack of sleep.
And one day you will wake up and realize you have to spend your whole day pretending. Pretending you like it there. Pretending to like the brother who will spend his day refining his insinuations towards you. You'll pretend not to notice when the Elders kids are all wearing new shoes while your using duct tape to hold your work boots together. You'll pretend or else be dragged into an inquisition in front of the same elders who've ignored you for years. And you will remember that all you ever wanted was to serve God, and now your not even sure if you believe in Him anymore. |
lets_be_real
New member
Username: lets_be_real
Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 71.98.157.3
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:09 am: |
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Just in short Because I can't resist this temptation or timing. But I do have to go to work. I believe in Yoneq's sincerity and of a new testament church. Unfortunately I believe the bad fruit of the community is do to a lack of obedience to what Yoneq teaches. Yoneq will admit that they have made mistakes along the way. I believe as I said last week that I felt wrongly judged, but I'm not going to hold that against him. If you follow the recipe you would get your desired result. To many in the community are not willing. Remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. More later. |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:11 am: |
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Jody - Well said.
I am praying for you. |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:15 am: |
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TT post Yoneq - Continued....
So what happens when Yoneq dies? Speculation continued. Yoneq earned his position by founding the TT and successfully convincing his followers that he is in fact the Elijah and has the anointing. And we all know that if we speak against the anointing, you have committed the unpardonable sin. Therefore, no is allowed and would dare question his authority or right to be the one and only head leader of the TT. That is not true of any of his power hungry elders and puppet masters.
In fact, Yoneq has made it a common practice to personally tear down these men to keep them humble. Don’t get me wrong, the common folk are not allowed to tear down the elders, but every now and then the door is opened to “inspect” these men to find fault to support a sickness, death of a family member etc. In fact look at what Yoneq says about Hakam, his second in command at the death of Hakam’s wife Mary, “If Hakam had a bad judgement (of)her - this could be a problem with him not judging her properly - Is this not a sin? Are we seeing it right? We won't be able to judge future communities”. There are just enough similar statements about each of the elders to keep them in their place and therefore disqualify them as being viewed by the Edah as “anointed” once Yoneq is gone. Now I am talking from the perspective of the communities following Yoneq’s replacement and choosing to give their lives on a daily basis and "die" for such a person.
Another perspective to consider is how peer elders would respond to one of them stepping up and saying, “I am the one, follow me”. Anyone arrogant enough to say this would be immediately disqualified by the others. Therefore, unless Yoneq passes his cloak on to an Elisha prior to his death, I envision a food fight among the elders who will struggle to win power (and a chance to get the 10% tithe from the industries).
And there is the question of ha Emeq. After enjoying near equal standing with Yoneq for all these years, will she simply back away and allow an elder and his wife to take the reigns and rule over her? Maybe she will take the riches Yoneq has stored up for them and retire to a tropical island. |
pilgrum
New member
Username: pilgrum
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 72.70.5.56
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:27 am: |
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can we at least get one thing straight? The 10% tithe does not go to anyone in or of the twelve tribes. It goes toward the payment of real estate taxes. There is no one that is storing up riches for themself (ex. Yoneq). I can understand some of the other sentiments posted (though I don't necessarily agree) but this thing about the 10% tithe is simply a sensationalist, miserable lie. |
lets_be_real
New member
Username: lets_be_real
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 71.98.157.3
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:29 am: |
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I second that whole heartedly |
pilgrum
New member
Username: pilgrum
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 72.70.5.56
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:47 am: |
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lets_be_real:
thank you. at least someone is "real" enough to be somewhat objective about this stuff. It's these kinds of lies that make headlines on the Boston Herald. It's so ridiculous it's almost not worth responding to but at least if we are going to criticize others we could at least have the integrity of presenting factual information. |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 9:47 am: |
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Pilgrum - Can you support your assumption the 10% tithe is used to only pay real estate taxes? Do you have a teaching that states this that you can share? Do you have a record of financial accountability of the TT and it's industries? Why call a tax a tithe? Did the Son of God teach to give the tithe to Caesar? Is this what the tithe is for?
I will gladly apologize if I have this wrong, but I would like to have some evidence that this is anything more than what I have already implied. Many elders had a problem when the tithe was implemented and some left. I see no reason why they would be concerned or offended about paying taxes. |
pilgrum
New member
Username: pilgrum
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 72.70.5.56
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:15 am: |
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The son of God didn't teach anything significant about giving tithe but he did teach specifically about giving unto Caesar what is his. Should the church be exempt from paying a state property tax because it is the church? The tithe is a provision to help pay the real estate tax. My statement about the 10% is not an assumption. It is a fact. If there is an abundance of tithe after paying the property taxes it goes to meet the greatest need in a community, a region or even a tribe. The notion that someone is storing up the 10% somewhere for their own is libelous. I can support my statement by the checkbook from which I write & the bank account to which I deposit my 10%. -Uh, oh, now you know that I am a 12 tribesman. When the tithe was first implemented yes, there were some who struggled with it as it wasn't yet clear how it would be used. It was first used for evangelistic events. I don't know of any "elders" that left simply because of the tithe. But if they did I am sure it had no relation to what the tithe was used for as it has only been used for the whole & not any one person and certainly not the "elders" to spend as they wish.
You aren't the only one that has said such things. You can apologize only if you wish. This kind of inflammatory stuff is what sells newspapers & keeps people tuned into demoralizing talk shows...
I don't plan on posting much more here. It's not worth the stress to try and defend myself nor the people I live with. Granted, there are problems in the 12 tribes as there are everywhere man has trod on planet earth but I hope to learn from the mistakes I've made in my own life and strive to do good & not harm to my fellow man. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 69.19.14.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:36 am: |
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I'm just impressed somebody from the community actually wrote something on here (besides D.D.'s sloganeering propaganda). |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:55 am: |
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I know for a fact that the tithe was used for way more than just taxes.
It is more like a "slush fund" and used wherever need be, or rather for Yoneqs pet projects like the buses or the ship and purchases of properties like the "White Elephant" or Morning Star Ranch.. Its also the financial backing for the evangelistic pushes like the concerts, bus tours and printing costs of hiring out web presses for free papers. (Seamus! can you verify this?)
So yes! Lets "at least have the integrity of presenting factual information"!
Lets_be_real, so my friend you say that Yoneqs "recipe" works? Isn't that what he does? Drive/fly around from community to community assuring that his "recipe" is followed correctly? Why then in 30 years has that "recipe" not been perfected?
Why does the loaf always "fall" flat? Too much leaven maybe???
Also did not the Priests of old collect the tithes not pay them because as Levites they had no inheritance? Is not everyone in the "Body" considered Priests? (que:double speak)
"Give unto Caesar what is due Caesar". I believe we all know who the Emperor is here and he doesnt have any clothes on... |
nabashalam
Junior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 26
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 11:10 am: |
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Pilgrum, I knew you were a current member from your first post... so dont feel like you gave anything away in your later one.
Please dont leave! Its been so long since we had a current TT member here that actually wants to talk "brass tacks"!! I agree with you that facts get twisted and blown out of proportion here as well as in your local Boston rag! We need someone here from the Tribes, not to evangelize, but to level out the one sided discussion here! Bitterness can sensationalize events and facts remembered and your voice can actually bring us back to reality.
Its been years since many of us lived there and myself for one would like to know actual current facts of if or how the Tribes have changed for the better or for the worse.
I beg of you to stay. I will try and be on my best behavior, cuz I can be a real brat sometimes. No kidding! |
pilgrum
New member
Username: pilgrum
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 70.19.206.131
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:03 pm: |
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ok, it is true that the tithe has been used for other purposes as I also said in my post. It is used for the greatest need and the "fact" of the matter is this is not always and exclusively decided upon by Yoneq. As it is now our income/tithe to property tax ratio isn't enough to pay all our property taxes from the tithe. So, we help each other. Each locale is obliged to hold their own tithe fund from which they pay their local property taxes. If there is excess tithe (though this is very rare) it is used to help other communities that aren't able to keep up with their taxes. Unfortunately with lands and farms comes a tax and that adds up pretty quickly and some communities just don't have the means with which to cover all these expenses. I hope that brings a little clarity. Can we agree to stop making the insinuation that the "elders" or "apostle" is getting rich off the tithe and traveling the world 'round on some kind of joy ride? The fact of the matter is Yoneq doesn't travel as much as he used to. I think he's hoping that we would catch on to loving more with the kind of love our God gave man the potential with which to love. We all fall short of loving and caring for our neighbor don't we ex-Y?
Besides, just for the record even if it existed, our "slush-fund" could hardly cover purchases such as the Morning Star Ranch or the "White Elephant". Such a fund doesn't exist.
Will I stay on? We'll see...  |
nabashalam
Junior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 1:26 pm: |
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Well, I hope you stay...
So how does the "anointing" justify the "usury" involved to finance large property purchases?
I do know of one elder leaving for the TTs improprieties in repaying debts and fulfilling financial promises.
Believe it or not, it irks me when the lies about Yoneq being a jet setter Guru are spread. I realise that wherever he goes he is treated like royalty but not at his request. The communities just want to show their appreciation, respect and hospitality. Actually, they even "roll out the red carpet" for visiting common members at times, but more so for visiting elders you must admit. Especially if they are from foreign Tribes.
Yes we all fall short, priests or not... |
pilgrum
New member
Username: pilgrum
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 70.19.206.131
| | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 1:53 pm: |
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well you caught me at a good time since I happen to be dealing with the piles of stuff on my desk... so I happen to be in front of the computer...
when we borrow from one another we don't charge each other interest so it's hardly something we need to justify. At least at this point real estate transactions seem to be a fair investment. We need houses and we need farms. We need a place for people to live and raise their families. We certainly aren't rich to the point that we have a bunch of cash flow sitting around. we don't expect the lending institutions of the earth to not produce an income for their enterprises however unjust they might be at times. We certainly don't foresee a future of carrying a debt load of outstanding mortgages held at myriad financial institutions. We hope to pay down our debts and especially our mortgages and in the future as we continue to grow and develop our hope is that we will no longer need to use the "system" in that way but we will instead be able to lend to one another without interest.
I am sure there have been communities that were not and still are not able to keep up with all their financial obligations. This is where we hope to meet each others needs. Perhaps there have been cases in which it was difficult for a community or clans to fulfill their financial obligations but does this mean that the entire TT are guilty of such?
If a person chooses not to remain in the TT there are certainly plenty of things one can come up with to give them a way out and I am not saying that all such things are unfounded. I am sure there have been many people that have made many mistakes along the way but we can't put a blanket over the whole TT and say this is the "way they are..."
That's similar to suggesting that all Christians are going to hell b/c they aren't part of the true church. We know that isn't true. That isn't what we say.
According to many prophecies we find in the Bible God will have his people, and they will be one as the Father & the Son. I'm only saying what the Bible says. I don't mean to be spouting off "sloganeering propaganda". It is yet to be revealed if the TT will certainly be that people... that is our hope & it surely is not easy...
Hopefully people can learn from the mistakes they've made & hopefully those that have truly hurt others can make restitution as they are able. } |
voocitd
New member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 16
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 12:13 am: |
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The following song makes me think of the TT:
"Numb"
I'm tired of being what you want me to be
Feeling so faithless lost under the surface
Don't know what you're expecting of me
Put under the pressure of walking in your shoes
Every step that I take is another mistake to you
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
Become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this, all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you
Can't you see that you're smothering me
Holding too tightly afraid to lose control
Cause everything that you wanted me to be
Has fallen apart right in front of you
Every step that I take is another mistake to you
And every second I waste is more than I can take
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
Become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this, all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you
And I know
I may end up failing too
But I know
You are just like me with someone disappointed in you
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
Become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this, all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I'm tired of being what you want me to be
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I'm tired of being what you want me to be
Linkon Park |
