| Author | Message | ||
     johnny (4.225.109.8) |
I was wondering if the pentecostal religion was a cult?? I have always heard it was..I know people(certain family members) who go to a pentecostal church, they seem "brainwashed", and seem to "shun" those who do not -practice- or -preach- with them. Even shunning their own family members,because certain "views" were not the same. If you know about this religion, or have seen any cult-like, behavior from the pentecostal religion PLease Let Me Know.. thanks | ||
| AARON (68.119.37.147) |
MANY OF THE PENTACOSTAL FAITH GET LIIKE THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES GOING TO HEAVEN BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE FOR ALL OF THEM. THE MAJORITY OF PENTACOSTALS ARE GOD LOVING PEOPLE AND ARE NOT CULTIC AT ALL I AM A MEMBER OF A HOLINESS CHURCH. WE DO BELEIVE IN LIVING ACCORDING TO STRICT RULES AND MAY AHVE DIFFERENT IDEAS THAN OTHER CHURCHES BUT WE DO NOT EXCULDE ANY ONE WHO SAYS THEY ARE SAVED | ||
| johnny (4.225.109.8) |
Thanks Aaron, I just think the church Abundant Life Ministries in Cininnati Ohio is a cult,because of some of the weird things that go on. Not to mention, most of the members who go there seem to HAVE to consult their "pastor" before making any decisions. Almost like they are not their "own" persons anymore. They cant confront other family members on anything without A. The pastor being there. OR B. Basing the whole conversation with "Our Pastor said...this is wrong or right" Like the 'Pastor' was controlling their whole life... Now the family members who do go to this church will not talk to the rest of the family, because of a clash in different views.. and that was back in OCT 2003! A whole YEAR has went by, no one is aloud to see their kids, or speak to them. And we think the pastor is behind it all, Most "Helpers of God"(meaning the pastor) would try to help bring this family back together!! But instead he's telling them terrible things, especially to the kids-like--"your mother and father are not speaking to the rest of their family, and you should not either--because if you do, that family may take you away from your mother and father, and put you in foster homes, and you will never see your family again" NOW WHAT KIND OF PASTOR IS THAT??? SOUNDS LIKE A CULT TO ME WHAT DO YOU THINK???? | ||
| qwerty (64.241.230.3) |
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!! Is every religian a cult to someone? look at this board, someone is questioning almost every denomination out there!!!!!!! | ||
| Anonymous (64.255.96.72) |
qwerty- I was just thinking the same thing! I do think johnny has a problem tho. If it is as you say johnny, it most definitely is a cult. Pray hard. | ||
| qwerty (64.241.230.3) |
That church sounds scary | ||
| JOHNNY (4.225.109.8) |
To all who posted on this : Thank you--We all have been praying VERY hard. We all just dont understand how someone who is supposed to be a "helper under God" (the Pastor) wont help us work our problems out..Yet the "pastor" says it is because "WE" are not members of "THEIR" church... (even though a family member that we are having problems with DOES go there) BUT if thats the case--why then does the "pastor" collect and send donations to the poor kids of east africa..who dont belong to THEIR church much less this country. IT ALL JUST SEEMS VERY ODD TO ME!! | ||
| Anonymous (64.255.96.72) |
Johnny - You are absolutely right and thinking very clearly. Unfortunately, those who succumb to these wolves in sheeps clothing have given in to a spirit of deception. You must pray that they may overcome that spirit of deception and then remain sensitive to the Holy Spirit so you know what to say and when to say it. | ||
| AARON (68.119.37.147) |
SOMETIMES THE UPC IS VERY DOGMATIC IN THE FACT THAT THEY BELEIVE YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF JESUS IN ORDER TO BE SAVED NOW THEY DO TEND TO GET CULTIC LIKE.. I DID NOT SAY THEY WERE CULTIC BUT CULTIC LIKE IN THE DOCTRINE I KNOW I AM SAVED BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS AND BAPTISED OR NOT AM GOING TO HEAVEN. I AM OF COURSE BAPTISED IN THE WATER AND I DO HAVE THE BAPTISIUM OF THE HOLY GHOST | ||
| Anonymous (65.13.189.216) |
to qwerty Most denominations have a few bad apples. Others, like the one I came out of, have more than their share. It just a fact of life. | ||
| My Church Is A Cult (64.12.117.20) |
Johnny is NOT thinking clearly! Churches are not fast food advice givers. Most of the time the problems that people face in their life are a result of not being truly connected to Christ, nor to the Body of Christ. A pastor is not a 'helper under God'. He is a shepherd of those who are in his flock. There is a responsibility upon the part of the pastor to not only give out 'advice', but he has to give an account to the Lord for how he has shepherded those in his care. If someome is not actually in his care, the pastor is very limited to what he can give that person, not knowing him/her in a personal way. In fact, it could be very dangerous to give off-hand 'advice' without a true personal relationship with that person. Sending 'donations' to poor kids in other nations is not the same thing as 'helping' someone out of their problems. At the end of the day the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who can help Johnny, a pastor's responsibility is to bring Johnny to Him. If Johnny doesn't want to come, the pastor cannot help him. | ||
| Elliott (63.185.17.182) |
Pentecostals are one of the closest true denominations. But they are wrong in about a half dozen of their teachings. In the book of Acts they had all things common, but the preachers want to take them back to the Old Testament, the book of Malachi. So they can get 10% of their wages. Just put tithing in your search engine and let the Holy Ghost lead you. I paid tithes for 7 plus years and ended up in bankruptcy court. Then God (not man) opened my eyes to the truth. But I started out in a cult called The Church of Jesus Christ (NOT latter day saints)they have almost the same doctrines. But they say they are the only true church, because you can't be Pentecost, because it was a day, and you can't be a day  If you have never been to a Pentecostal church, try it. But if the hand of God moves and you get the Holy Ghost or healed don't worship or trust the preacher with all your heart, because he could be a devil. Remember this, all the law is fulfilled in ONE WORD, AND IT'S NOT TITHING. | ||
| The question/answer (69.163.116.200) |
Every man should study the word of God for themselves. It seems like most people today have created their own religion. God knows what he wants, and He is the final authority of what is acceptable. Pentecost is an experience. People continue to explain things away... I would suggest that anyone that has questions about Baptism in Jesus name and being filled with the Holy Spirit seek God FOR YOURSELF. GO TO HIS WORD AND PRAY. HE IS THE REWARDER OF THEM THAT DELINGENTLY SEEK HIM. SEEK HIM, NOT A RELIGION OR TRADITION. I DID, AND I WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLYSPIRIT (SPEAKING IN TONGUES AS THE SPIRIT GAVE UTTERANCE), AND IT WAS REVEALED TO ME THAT I NEEDED THE WATER BAPTISM IN JESUS NAME. SEEK GOD! | ||
| Anonymous (24.70.178.211) |
Johnny! Thankyou so much for bringing up the words CULT and PENTACOSTAL in your message,in answer to your question yes unfortunatly it is a cult. I am an optimist and always give everyone and evrything a chance. Big mistake in this case I lost my daughter to the Pentacostal cult and I am terrified of the mindset she has adopted,she is vacant in her eyes,she shuns the family,friends that she had all through her childhood erased from her life. I need some help with this "PLEASE someone help me,HELP us. You are all in my thoughts and prayers. | ||
| 69thstreet (69thstreet) New member Username: 69thstreet Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
ive never seen so many people judging others when there not in the position to as in the pentecostal church | ||
| 69thstreet (69thstreet) New member Username: 69thstreet Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Is the pentacostal church a cult? I really cannot say but I'll tell you all why I left. I left because they believe the only way your a christian is if you speak in tounges, which is not true. they are way too judgemental, they shun you if you dissagree w/ them and I dont like the way they treat women. | ||
| medicine (medicine) New member Username: medicine Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 170.215.179.171 |
You want to talk about "judgemental" try a Catholic Church. I know I experienced first hand the Catholic Church. The Bible talks about relationships with other Christians and the Lord's Supper this was something I was not taught in the Catholic Catechism but rather learned on my own through Bible study 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 "For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgement against themselves. 30For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." (NOAB) I left the Catholic Church because of a catholic Chaplain that perverted the Gospel. And the laws of celibacy don't apply to all Pastors, if that was true the main disciple Peter would not of been married, of course Jesus did not bind that law on him, but rather believing in him is a requirement for "eternal life", and that is more important than celibacy, as Peter had "strong firm faith" as he was crucified upside down on a rugged cross. I have learned that Church is not about a particular religion but rather about a "true Pastor" that does work at God's word, God's love, and studies the word of God, the mebers of the body, relationships witht the memebrs, having "strong firm faith" in Jesus Christ, and administering the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the Christian community, and that takes a true Pastor to lead and guide in the administering of the gifts, some Pastors want to see the gifts administered, and for building up the body of Christ, the opposite is true for a "false Pastor". The Bible speaks of false prophets 1 John 4:5 "They are from the world; therefore what they say is from the world, and the world listens to them."(NOAB) Other verse(s) speak of "fruits" you will know the false prophets by their fruits. As Christians we produce fruit. Hate is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit, but rather probably an antonym "love" is a fruit of the spirit. I adhere to 1 Corinthians 11:31 "But if we judged ourselves, we would not be judged." (NOAB) I try to live out that verse because I know how judgemental other people are. I like a Church that administers the gifts of the Holy Ghost. The gifts are for the Christian community, I've read it in the Bible, I don't recall the verse quickly but can search it out if necessary. I make sure that my life is together before I set foot in any Church. I don't go to Church to sit in the pews, I want to see the gifts of the Holy Ghost administered with boldness, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the Gospel preached with boldness, when I walk into a Church. I want to see Matt. 10:1 in real life. (Message edited by medicine on December 01, 2004) | ||
| scott (scott) New member Username: scott Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.33.254.125 |
our pastor apoints his on elders an decons and we never vote on anything he just tells us what we are doing next is this right | ||
| scott (scott) New member Username: scott Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.33.254.125 |
i also grew up bapasit and long to be a deacon but he would never pick me i dont fit his profile i sopose | ||
| 69thstreet (69thstreet) New member Username: 69thstreet Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Why do pentacostals think that their right and everyone else is wrong? Can someone answer that? | ||
| overseas (overseas) New member Username: overseas Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
When I evangelize people, I don't use to advertise my denomination/ church. I don't consider my christian mission is to build a certain denomination or organization. But I try to make people aware of the Bible truth and then they can pick a place to worship. Of course I have limits because I am an evangelical. I am not tolerant with wrong theology, but people should choose free. People defend their groups (see previous post) because they look for unity and not primarily for a community of sincere God seekers. Unity gives immediate comfort and rewards loyalty to group. Also it is very nice to feel unique as a group, it makes you feel magical while the rest are stupid. I feel unique because I am saved but I recognise saved people in different denominations as well. And I don't afford to be proud of myself because it is all God's work, by faith and grace not by my intelligence. Sometimes God slaps me in the face and I hear something really wise and helpful from somebody 'un-churched' and I remember not to despise anybody. | ||
| penetcostalreligionproudly (penetcostalreligionproudly) New member Username: penetcostalreligionproudly Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.21.13.164 |
I am appauled at the harsh judgements against the pentecostal religion. I am a Christian, and Pentecostal. My Grandfather and Grandmother founded a Pentescostal Church, "Community Holiness Church". And I assure you that it is not a cult. We do not believe that if you don't speak in tongues that you don't get into heaven (that is a terrible stereotype). I have not been blessed with the Grace of speaking in tonuges and it does not mean that I am any less of a believer than anyone else of Pentecostal religion or any other religion. My Grandfather was one of the most well-respected Deacons and a very good man. He would never judge anyone (no matter what their religion) and I am hurt that any of you would judge anyone or any religion just because it does not suit you. What kind of religion do you have that teaches you to be harsh and judge God's childern? Maybe you should all educate yourselves and have a little more faith in yourself and accept other's as they are and learn not to be racist and stereotype other religions because you don't understand them or you don't have strong faith. A cult! NOT! Why would you suggest a thing? And brainwashed? That is funny. So, I guess if the religion doesn't fit into your daily lives then you find a way to criticize it and stereotype it so that you can justify your lifestyle and judgements? Is Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Baptist, and etc, cults too because they are not all the same and have different ways of worshiping God? And since when is receiving the gift from God to speak in tongues a bad thing, or a cult thing? I see it as a blessing from God and I am sure God will forgive your judgements. By the way, my husband is Catholic and we respect each others religion and do not judge because we both believe in God. | ||
| teeter (teeter) New member Username: teeter Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 207.192.193.136 |
I belonged to a full gospel pentecostal church of God for over 12 years. Then I left and joined (shortly) an apolstolic pentecostal church mistakenly thinking they were the same. THEY WERE NOT! Beware of this when thinking of a cult like atmosphere. Just because someone has a belief or a strong pastor...Not a cult. Just because you don't understand the church doctrine...not a cult...the tell tale thing that makes it not a cult or is a cult is this: WE HAVE TO....we have to wear long dresses...or what? what will happen? We have to do what is expected...or what? if you feel that something is not right...then investigate. Use your brain. Our child was segregated away from us for "sunday school" about a block from where we were, in a locked building. (for the children's protection) if felt odd...then they finger printed her without our permission and showed up at our house when we didn't go back, then the pastor kept calling (not too odd..just telling the story) but what happened next...we live in a small town..because we decided just not to go back...they shunned us! in public refusing to speak to us...I say...possibly a cult..either way. we left. YOu have a brain. If you want to leave..and can't ..could be a cult...if you want to do something that is not dangerous, illegal or morally wrong and it is not allowed..maybe you should rethink it all. That is how you know. Use your head...to guard your heart... | ||
| teeter (teeter) New member Username: teeter Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 207.192.193.136 |
I went thru and read a lot of the comments and there are some harsh ones but remember there is good and bad right and wrong in all religions. Not all Catholic priests molest children and not all pentecostals believe you have to pentecostal or speak in tongues to go to heaven. I say follow the BIBLE and GOD and not any man or preacher or minister to the opposite of those two things. We do have a brain for a reason. One does not have to surrender all to anything of this earth but only to God in heaven..by the way I get sick of the whole tithe thing too. Geez..but that is ALL RELIGION not any one singled out. All of them spend about 15 mins of the sermon to 1/2 of it focased on getting more money and making us feel guilty...they are not always good stewards of the money either..Benny Hinn, for example but I am not attacking him so don't freak...just think the money could in most cases be better spent...God Bless all, we must guard not to be too quick to judge.. | ||
| washington (washington) New member Username: washington Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 192.232.30.80 |
i,m not a member of the penecoastal religion ,but my best friend is and she changed she is not who she use to be we dont even talk anymore i dont know who she is neither does her family i say ist a cult because they dont let you be your ingividual self my heart goes out to whoever is going through the same thing i am just pray and dont give up thats all i can do dont let them win!!!!!!!! | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.143.200 |
I too was UPCI, but no longer am... I agree that they are legalistic and pharisee... But I have to stand up for Oneness, Baptizm of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues and I stand up for Baptizm in the name of Jesus Christ.... One thing people fail to realize is that when a person believed they were immediatly baptized, read acts, all accounts of believers are baptized right away... ACTS 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were BAPTIZED: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. ACTS 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were BAPTIZED, both men and women. ACTS 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he BAPTIZED him. ACTS10:48 And he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. ACTS 16:15 And when she was BAPTIZED, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. ACTS 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was BAPTIZED, he and all his, straightway. ACTS 18:18 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were BAPTIZED. ACTS 19:5 When they heard this, they were BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus. ACTS 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be BAPTIZED, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Paul, the apostle gives many accounts to us asked us who were baptized in Christ have put on Christ, were baptized into his death, ROMANS 6:3, GALATIANS 3:27, Colossians 2:12 my point: if baptizm isn't that important why, tell me why was it done right at conversion... Jesus himself stated: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God JOHN 3:5... MARK 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. so search your own hearts, search the scripture, please don't take my word for it, take God's... Now on the issue of the UPC holiness standards, MATTHEW 23:25-26 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. MATTHEW 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness GALATIANS 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? | ||
| jeff_p (jeff_p) Junior Member Username: jeff_p Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 70.60.4.240 |
Yes, every denomination of Christianity is a cult. I read it on the internet. C'mon guys. Yes, they're are bad apples in every part of the church. Pentecostals believe that a filling of the Spirit isn't received at conversion, but at the time of receiving tongues. They don't believe that that you have to speak in tongues to be saved! I whole-heartedly disagree with the Pentecostals views on tongues. I don't think it should be elevated over gifts of teaching, hospitality, healing...Paul even states that prophecy should be the most desired gift. And if you've visited a Church of Christ or Fundamentlist church, I think you'll see the same critical spirits at a higher intensity. But to say they're a cult! Most sects of Christianity 'cut up' the gospel message. Pentecostals often emphasize the power aspect of the church (the Spirit working, gifts, etc). But often neglect education and science. The conservative evangelical sect emphasize the truth of the gospel. But they're often embarrased of the supernaturalism of the gospel. As a result they're is no talk or expectation of people being delivered from demonic bondage or God speaking. The liberal side of the church is very socially focused and active. They serve, have numerous programs to reach people and show love. But they often don't emphasize the vertical element of a relationship with Christ -how to have relationship with God, how to find God. I've heard in some liberal churches, literally "You can believe anything here and that's OK." There's this fuzziness. The whole true NT church should bring these three elements together. The power, truth and love of the gospel. That's a church running on all 12 cylinders. The powerful church Jesus came to usher in and advance by His grace. | ||
| samantha (samantha) New member Username: samantha Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Ok, i kno the pentecostal church might scare you if you've ever been...i mean it scared me too...but my mom was so strong in it and i wanted to know what was different about the pentecostal churches....so i went and i felt something there that i've never felt before...it was scary at first but i gave it a try and went there with an opened mind...pretty soon i became a member of Greater Life Apostolic Church and me and my family...but a couple years later my whole family put sports infront of God and going to church and thats when my life started getting bad....First my parents got a devorce and then my mom got this wacked up boyfriend that mentally abused her and made her think that she couldn't make decisions by herself and thats when i came back to God cause I had nowhere else to go....and i knew he would always be there for me no matter if i did things wrong in my life or not...cuz nobodys perfect....so i got really strong into church and my mom was still hurt from her ex boyfriend and 1 day i asked her to come to church and she did and the whole time i just kept praying for her right there in the church...and we started having a shout out (when people start speaking in tongues, go to upci if u want to kno what that is)so i took my mom by the hand and asked her to come up there with me and she raised her hands and started praying letting all the sadness come out and crying to God for help and forgiveness....and ever since that day she has been coming to church and has not had anymore problems with her ex-boyfriend....and she tells me herself that, that night at church was the day she has not had a problem with him ever since...in the bible is says to not judge people....but i don't understand because people don't give the pentecostal religion a chance its...there not brainwashed and u can look at acts chapter 2 and read all of chapter 2 and see why we speak in tongues...it says it right in the bible.....i don't understand how u can have a catholic bible and all these other bibles when king james version was the first bible to come out...and i also don't see how u can believe half the bible but not the other half....it almost seems to me like people pick out what they want to believe....The pentecostal religion believes in the old testament but we live by the new testament...so if u want to know why we do certain things and "speak in tongues" then read the new testament and espically Acts 2:38...Theres nothing like the feeling of speaking in tongues...its the greatest feeling in the world and if u have u know what i'm talking about but if u haven't u need to go and really try to understand what its all about and don't judge...before u know...}}} | ||
| samantha (samantha) New member Username: samantha Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 |
I just wanted to say that the pentecostal religion does not say that ur not saved if u don't speak in tongues...because in the bible it tells us not to judge and so we don't judge other people....just like people shouldn't judge us.....also the pentecostal religion might have strict rules and standards that they go by but doesn't every church.....the catholics have old priests that are more strict than the younger ones and thats exactly the same with the pentecostal religion the older ones are more strict but the younger preachers and more leberal than the others....so we might have different standards than other churches but all churches have standards...ours are just a little different.......also about speaking with tongues it says it in Acts 2:4 "And they were filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with tongues as the spirit gave them utterance" it says that and thats why we speak in tongues!! (Message edited by samantha on May 11, 2005) | ||
| alphaomega (alphaomega) New member Username: alphaomega Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.96.86.4 |
I am amazed that the posting on this thread so far has not even dealt with the key issues in the so called "Pentacostal Charismatic" holiness movement. Let me begin by quoting pastor W.E.Best from Kingwood, Texas... "Pentacostal Doctrine" is right out of the pit of hell", and I have to concur with him. What a sham, what a deception, and what a conflagration of errors this movement is. Pentacostalism is the bulwork of "american FREEWILL religion". That is a fact and it cannot be denied. So instead of focusing on the subjective aspects of this cultic movement, that has gone astray from orthodox christian teaching regarding the "third person of the trinity", I think it is high time this cult be unmasked for it is. The only way this can be done of course is to address their "doctrinal aberrations". I will begin with this piece from the booklet "Honoring the True God", and I welcome any discussion on it. MAN-MADE DOCTRINE: The Christian life is incomplete apart from the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." BIBLICAL TRUTH: "Baptism in the Spirit" refers to what took place historically at Pentecost. Charismatic Pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit) emphasizes the "experience" of the Holy Spirit, but neglects the "doctrine." Subjective "experience" must never be given precedence over objective truth. Erroneous doctrinal understanding of the Holy Spirit leads to erroneous experiences. No doubt there is a lack of spiritual power in the contemporary "church," but the teaching and practice by Charismatics does not exemplify the Biblical description of spiritual power. Many sincerely think they are experiencing the power of the Spirit; but how can they be sure, if they neglect doctrinal teaching on the whole counsel of God? There are seven references to persons being baptized "in the Holy Spirit" ; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16; I Corinthians 12:13. The Greek preposition en is used in the locative case in all except Mark 1:8, but there the locative case of the Holy Spirit determines the preposition to be used. The locative case makes the verse read "in the Holy Spirit" rather than "with the Holy Spirit," which would be the instrumental case. The first five references to baptism in the Spirit point to Pentecost. Jesus Christ was the Baptizer, and He has baptized in the Holy Spirit the assembly that He is building. All the references contain future tense verbs except John 1:33, which has a futuristic present participle. The verb "baptized" in reference to water (Acts 1:5a) is an aorist active indicative verb (point action past time), which makes that part of the verse history. However, the verb for "baptized," in reference to the Spirit (Acts 1:5b), is future passive indicative. The passive voice means the subjects will be acted upon rather than participating in the action. Hence, the "promise of the Father" in Acts 1:4 was an unconditional promise. The fulfillment of the predicted Pentecost was as sure as the fulfillment of Passover. Calvary was for all who were elected unto salvation, and Pentecost was for all who would constitute the body of Christ. The promise was not only unconditional, but it was inclusive, passive, indicative, and future. After the Gentiles had experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:15,16), Peter remembered what Christ had said in His promise recorded in Acts 1:5. Thus, the same inflected form of the verb is used in Acts 11:16, which makes it point back to Pentecost. The last verse that speaks of baptism in the Spirit is I Corinthians 12:13. The controversy over this verse arises from prejudice rather than Biblical investigation. Like Acts 11:16, it points back to Pentecost. Every regenerated person has been baptized in the Spirit, but not when he was born of God or when he was baptized in water as an ordinance. The tense of the verb "baptized" is aorist passive indicative, signifying that Paul spoke of the reality of a past action in which the recipients did not participate. Our baptism in the Spirit at Pentecost (the fulfillment of the predicted "feast of Pentecost" of Leviticus 23:15-22) is understood in the same sense as our crucifixion in Jesus Christ at Calvary. We were not crucified in Christ when we were regenerated but when He was crucified: "knowing this, that our old self was crucified [same verb tense as I Cor. 12:13 -- aorist passive indicative] with Him ..." (Rom. 6:6 NASB). Both I Corinthians 12:13 and Romans 6:6 are to be understood legally rather than literally. Therefore, the reality of both Calvary and Pentecost was not dependent on the disciples - obedience to God's command any more than Christ's second advent depends on our obedience to Him. The one Pentecost had three parts, and they are portrayed in Leviticus 23:22 ; (l) "ye," (2) "corners of thy field," and (3) "gleaning of thy harvest." The Holy Spirit came upon the Jews (Acts 2) [corresponding with "ye"], the Samaritans (Acts 8) [corresponding with the "corners of thy field"], and the Gentiles (Acts 10) [corresponding with the "gleaning of thy harvest"]. This truth is further established in the three divisions of Acts 1:8 -- Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth. The conclusion of what has been given on the baptism in the Holy Spirit can be stated concisely. Persons made alive by the Holy Spirit subsequent to Pentecost are introduced into the already baptized body of Jesus Christ. If Charismatics are correct, the promise of the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:4-5 would have been in the subjunctive mood (the mood of possibility), rather than the future indicative mood (the mood of future reality). Therefore, Pentecost was not a possibility but a reality. Pentecost merely describes the Holy Spirit's coming to baptize the assembly in power. | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.85.214.9 |
Alpha, You are obviously WAY out of my league! I am extremely impressed with your knowledge and scholarship. I have a sincere request. I am not trying to be a smart aleck or stir up trouble. Could you encapsulate your previous post, in a "Cliff Notes" type post? The references to tense, grammatical positioning, etc, leave me cold. I have a good vocabulary but weak grammar. Thanks in advance, and God Bless. Doug P. | ||
| anonymous_2 (anonymous_2) New member Username: anonymous_2 Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 68.101.72.194 |
You know what? Why are we arguing over the word. The only religion that I've known to prove the word has been UPC. I went to Methodist, Baptist, Assmeblies of God, and then Pentecostal. I was told that tongues was a cult, then that it wasn't for everyone, to then experiencing the outpouring of the Holy Ghost and uncontrollably speaking in a heavenly language. LET GOD B TRU!! ya know what else? God is the only one who draws every one of us to his truth. He will eventually pour out his spirit on all flesh. Until then, all we can do is live the best way we know how for him, not worry about how holy we are or how great of sinners we are, or if our church is a cult. If the church has the spirit of God, stay there! The Holy Ghost is not for the world to receive. GOd is love, and if you wanna know which church to attend, get on your knees and pray, and he will draw you when you submit your will. Pentecostals back up everything they do, and the Lord is present with them. So prove that they are a cult, and I will consider. Until then, i am confident that they are not a cult. Praise the Lord, and avoid vain babblings!! Nobody is perfect and all fall short of the glory of God. We are all human, and will all find out if our beliefs are right. Until then , we must stand on a belief. A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Be blessed everyone, and stop the drama. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Dear friends, I come from a hindu background and my encounter with Jesus transformed my life. Every denominations has it's own faults. The Pentacostal movement started in 1901, turning the world upside down, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which was prophesied by Joel the prophet in Joel 2. The movement was started by people who weren't very educated.Their view of holiness was mostly legalistic. They thought holiness was the way they dressed, and the way they walked. But the movement brought back the life-changing experience of the Holy Spirit baptism back to the church, marking the latter rain prophesied by the prophet Joel and later in the new testament by James. It wasn't a fashionable thing to belong to Pentacost. They were often scorned at and persecuted. Later in 1960s came the Charismatic movement. It became a fashion to be called a Charismatic, that even secular people started using the term. Charismatics brought in a lot of false doctrines with it, one of them being 'once saved always saved doctrine'. People lost the value of true holiness. They lost the truth about being separated from sin and the world. But the bible is crystal clear that without holiness no man will see the Lord. That's strong, but yet it is true. People say that Charismatic movement is the next great wave after Pentacost, but that isn't true. I believe Charismatic movement is the dirt in between two great waves. No, don't get me wrong, I am addressing to the unholy activities that they introduced and manifestations they attribute to the Holy Spirit, which mostly has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. The only condition to be saved is, to be born-again and that means to be cleansed of ones sin through the blood of Jesus. The bible doesnot teach that you have to baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved. Yet, the bible teaches that every born-again soul must be filled with the Holy Spirit to make the rapture. There is much contention and blasphemous teachings when it comes to the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. The bible is crystal clear about the requirements of salvation: confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. Does this mean, that the dumb cannot be saved? Does this mean that the deaf cannot be saved? Something to think about. The initial evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. I say this so that no one will push off this evidence to be of the devil and there by blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Whoever is baptized in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues, just like whoever is willing to be baptized will get wet. It's that simple. Christians fight over this bible teaching because they lack the knowledge of scriptures. They confuse the gift of tongues to the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. If you study the 5 experiences in the book of Acts: Act2, Act8, Act9, Act10 and Act 19, closely with 1 Corinthians 14 you will understand the difference between the gift of tongues and the initial evidence. For those who want this biblical experience and for those who crave for more of God can mail me. I am not here to debate on the Word of God. The Word of God is not debatable. The bible makes things so simple and clear, it's man who complicates things. God bless. Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Water baptism must be administered in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Those who say, one must be baptized in the name of Jesus alone, are part of the cult. Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
The bible is clear about the born-again experience and the Holy Spirit baptism. One doesnot receive the Holy Spirit when he or she believes. The scriptures you used have nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit as such. Firstly, the born-again experience is when you follow the basic principles mentioned in Romans 10:7, where you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead. The moment you believe this, you are born of the Spirit or said to have the Spirit of Christ. This means, the Holy Spirit takes of the blood of Jesus and cleanses you from all sin. In the epistle of Peter, he mentions this truth in the first few verses, where he says the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. He is the agent that uses the blood of Jesus on our souls. Jesus is the second Person of the trinity, and His divinity is in His blood. If you ask a good doctor he will tell you that the father furnishes the blood of a child and not the mother. And so Jesus did not have Mary's blood, but had divine, sinless blood. Jesus received the Holy Spirit only at the age of 30. As the Son of God, He didn't need the Holy Spirit, but as a Son of Man, He showed us that without the Holy Spirit we couldn't overcome the various temptations and the trials that we face daily. In the greek language, in many places the 'the' prefix is not found along with the Holy Spirit. In English language since the phrase would look incomplete, tranlators have added the 'the' in places where the 'the' prefix is not there as well. If you closely study these scriptures and compare them with the others which have the 'the' prefix, you will find that they are speaking of the Holy Spirit in an impersonal manner. One such place where the 'the' prefix is not there is the scripture you quoted in John 20. The places where the 'the' prefix is absent, the Holy Spirit is often meant to be impersonal and as a power. Jesus breathed on the disciples and asked to receive the Holy Spirit, but later before Jesus ascended, He commanded them to tarry in Jerusalem until they be endued with power from on high: the promised Holy Spirit would be poured out on each of them. What happened in John 20 was that, they were born of the Spirit, that is they were the work of the Spirit. But the Holy Spirit came to dwell in their hearts only on the Day of Pentacost. In Act 8: 12-18 you again find the Samarians believed and were baptized and later when Peter and John came, they placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. And in bracket it is given: For the Holy Spirit was not yet given to any of them. In ACt 10:44-48, you find that Cornelius and his household believed as Peter preached to them and even while he was preaching they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The only criteria for receiving the Holy Spirit is being washed of the blood of Jesus. In case of the Ephesians, Paul first thought these were the disciples of Jesus and found out they were not when he asked them "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?". But they replied and said they hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul immediately asks them, with what baptism they were baptized. For if they were baptized in the christian baptism, which is in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, they would have heard about the Holy Spirit being mentioned. But they were just baptized in John's baptism, which was not administered in any name. Then Paul preaches to them, they believe are baptized in water and then Paul places his hand on them and they receive the Holy Spirit. Again, they didnot receive the Holy Spirit when they believed. Most people use Ephesians 1:13 to say they are sealed with the Holy Spirit when the believe. But as you study what happened in Ephesus, you find they didnot receive the Holy Spirit when they believed. Moreover, the word used in Eph1:13 is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER you believed." I would ask you to study on the places where the 'the' prefix is not used with the Holy Spirit, it could avoid a lot of confusion. Again, the 'the' prefix is not used in Matthew 1, where it says Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Here again the Holy Spirit is impersonal, not mentioned as a Person. Jesus mentioned the Holy Spirit as a Person many times in the gospel on John. I hope I could clearly explain to you what it means to be born of the Spirit and to be baptized in the Holy Spirit as the early disciples were on the day of Pentacost. I exhort you to receive the Holy Spirit according to Act2:4. God bless. Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
If you study the foundational doctrines in Hebrew 6, you will find it mentions, repentance, faith, 'baptisms', laying on of hands, ressurection from the dead, and judgment. Paul says these are the elementary, and foundations. In 1 Corinthians 10, you find Paul again mentions two baptisms, the baptism in the sae symbolising the baptism in water, and the baptism in the cloud, symbolising the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They are different. Only a person born-again or born of the Spirit can be baptized in water, which is administered in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as commanded in Matthew 28:20. Those who want a shallow knowledge of God can stay there and lose the blessings that God has for them. The christian life of power starts only when you receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The true gifts operate only after one is baptized in the Holy Spirit. I am not for pentacostals or charismatics, I believe the bible and the bible teaches this marvelous experience. I have experienced it and know it is real. Many blasphemous teachings have gone forth, teaching the Holy Spirit baptism is a doctrine of the devil and tongues is not of God. I don't want anything to do with such people, they have sealed their destination as they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Just because Pentacostals are legalistic in their views of holiness and Charismatics are steeped in modernism, doesn't mean you have to disregard this bible experience. Many people who think they are preaching the gospel and for God are actually preaching against Him. The Holy Spirit baptism is God's greatest fire for man-kind in this final hour. The church went into absolute darkness when they neglected this, but with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel and James the power from on high has been restored. I stand for God's Word not man's theories. Because of His love, Sidharth | ||
| wecheskaya (wecheskaya) New member Username: wecheskaya Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 217.21.112.18 |
What exactly, in clear terms is the bone of contention here? | ||
| cindig (cindig) Member Username: cindig Post Number: 58 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.65.135.11 |
belong2jesus, What difference do you make in "when you believed" or "after you believed"? | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 245 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Sidharth, Why does Matthew 28:20 have to be water? Why can't it be Holy Spirit baptism, in line with the scripture, Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" for the church. I don't see any water in Hebrews 6, 1 Cor 10, or Romans 6. If Ephesians says that there is one baptism, which baptism does it have to be? Could we have been wrong all along, and maybe it means that the references in the Church epistles refer to baptizo as being imersed in the Holy Spirit? We can't use John's baptism in water because he was preaching the Kingdom message for repentence of Israel. Then he did something unique by anointing the Christ -- something we cannot copy. [Christos means "the annointed one".] We can't use use Phillip and the Ethiopian eunoch because, that early in Act, they were still practicing the Jewish traditions and a ceremonial cleansing for prosalytes was part of it. The prophesy by Joel refers to the end of the Tribulation. That hasn't happened yet. I search "power from on high" and I didn't get what you got." Where is your reference in James? --Alan. (Message edited by Wyoming on August 24, 2005) | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
wyoming... do you beleive in water baptisum? matthew teaches water baptisum | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 246 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
. Prove to me that Matthew teaches water baptism for believers, for membership in the body of Christ. You will never be able to do so; not for a million dollars. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i asked you if you beleive in water baptisum. i also have read your posts on some other subjects and find you are very condemning person and that you come across with if i dont beleive the way you do i am wrong. now answer me do you beleive in water baptisum and have you been baptised in water. | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 247 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
I'm not a politician and I'm too old to care what people think about me anymore. I'm convicted according to scripture and conscience in what I believe and I'm not going to be wishy washy or mamby pamby about it for fear of offending someone. People who disagree with me accuse me of all kinds of things. Some who disagree with me still show me respect. People who agree with me don't seem to have a problem with me. I don't take it personally and I can control my emotions when people disagree with me. It should be clear from my posts that I only believe in one baptism and it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was dipped in water when I was ignorant and didn't know any better. (Message edited by Wyoming on August 24, 2005) | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 380 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.27 |
wyoming, you surprise me alot. For me baptizism with water is a sign of a believe following in the footsteps of Christ, But I wonder if you would define Holy Spirit baptizism in the way you believe. Becasue you throw me for a loop since I would of not thought you at all pencostal or charismatic. So enlighten me on what you believe on this. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
by reading wyomings posts i find she is still involved in some cultic beleif and has no concern for other beleifs | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 248 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
Love, Can you do more than make a wild guess? I'm transparent enough at my web site: http://www.ChurchGrowth.CC (Message edited by Wyoming on August 25, 2005) | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
Water baptism does not save anyone. One can be baptized in rivers, ponds, lakes and swimming pools and still go to hell. The only criteria for salvation is being washed of the blood of Jesus.The thief on the left of Jesus didn't get baptized in water, yet he was in paradise with Jesus. Yet, water baptism is an act of obedience. People were baptized in the early church in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a physical declaration you make , that you belong to the Lord Jesus: symbolising the death and resurrection. In Romans 6, we find this. Being immersed in water symbolises death and burial with the Lord, and coming out of the water symbolizes resurrection. In Act 2:38 it says "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". Yet, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is not necessary to be baptized in water. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave me utterance even before I was baptized in water. The house of Cornellius was baptized in water, only after they received the Holy Spirit. "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, an any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."(Act10:44-48) Again, those in samaria were baptized in water before be being baptized in the Holy Spirit(Act8:12-18). The bible is clear on this. "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."(Act 8: 12, 13) Again Paul meets a certain disciples in Ephesus, which he first mistakes to be the disciples of Jesus. He was led to ask, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"(Act19:2) They said they hadn't even heard of a Holy Ghost. However, no one can be baptized in water, and no hear the name of the Holy Spirit, since the water baptism is administered in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit in accordance to Matthew 28:20. Jesus wasn't speaking obviously here about the Holy Spirit baptism because on the day of Pentacost, no one laid hands on the 120 disciples to receive the Holy Spirit. More over, not even one place in Acts where the baptism in water and baptism in the Holy SPirit is seen, do we find people being baptized in the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. More over, man cannot baptize another man in the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the baptizer. The disciples were commanded to make disciples and baptize them. When it comes to the Holy Spirit baptism, even without laying on of hands people can receive the Holy Spirit as in the case of Act2:4 and Act10:44-48. Moreover, Peter in his epistle makes clear the importance of water baptism: an answer to a clear conscience.For he comapares the baptism to Noah and his household saved by water. The Holy Spirit baptism is a baptism in fire, not water. Hope I am clear. Sidharth I hope I am clear. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Dear cindig , Read Act19:1-6 and Eph1:13. See what actually happened in Ephesus(Act19:1-6) and then read what was written to them later (Ephesians 1:13). You will see, dear one, that they didnot receive the Holy Spirit when the believed, but AFTER they believed. They believed in the One who came after John, and was baptized in water and later Paul laid his hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. I hope I have answered your question. Sidharth | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 249 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
My Turtle Dove, There is nothing in scripture for us to be baptized water as a sign of a believer to follow in the footsteps of Christ. All doctrine must come from scripture. There are too many traditions of men masquerading as Christian doctrine. Again, Ephesians 4:5 says that there is only one baptism for the Church. All Christians receive the Holy Spirit as a part of being saved, immediately when they are saved. There cannot be a second baptism. How do you manage to drop kick Ephesians 4:5? | ||
| cindig (cindig) Member Username: cindig Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.154.128.12 |
I agree with wyoming that we receive the Holy Spirit immediately when we are saved. Sidharth, You believe we receive the Holy Spirit after we are saved because your definition of receiving the Holy Spirit is tongues? am I right? | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
Sidharth, Acts 19:1-6: Nobody received the Holy Spirit by John's baptism. He was preaching the Kingdom of God to the Jews. If the Jews would have accepted the coming Messiah the Epistles and everything else that happened wouldn't have had to be written. The Holy Spirit wasn't available until Pentacost. John was beheaded long before then. Paul and the Apostles had the power to lay on hands and give gifts but those powers ceased when the Apostles were gone. The big, big mistake that most Christian make is to assume that "baptism" means "water" when there is no water implied by the context of the verses; and you have to remember Ephesians 4:5. Why does Matthew 28:20 have to be water? Why can't it be Holy Spirit baptism, in line with the scripture, Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" for the church. I don't see any water in Hebrews 6, 1 Cor 10, or Romans 6. If Ephesians says that there is one baptism, which baptism does it have to be? Could we have been wrong all along, and maybe it means that the references in the Church epistles refer to baptizo as being imersed in the Holy Spirit? We can't use John's baptism in water because he was preaching the Kingdom message for repentence of Israel. Then he did something unique by anointing the Christ -- something we cannot copy. [Christos means "the annointed one".] We can't use use Phillip and the Ethiopian eunoch because, that early in Act, they were still practicing the Jewish traditions and a ceremonial cleansing for prosalytes was part of it. Can you argue against or refute these things? (Message edited by Wyoming on August 25, 2005) | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 382 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.19 |
wyoming I do believe in the baptizism as you describe in ephesians. I will look for verses to show why we baptize in the church or river as far as water baptizism. I do believe as John 3 &4 talk about baptizism of the Holy Spirit. I do believe each person is sealed with the HOly spirit at the instant they are saved. But I do believe in the baptizism of the Holy Spirit according to Acts experience too. Do i believe there must be tongues no which is unusual for the group I am in. I do not think my pastor is as strict on the tongues as many pentecostals. I look at the Acts experience as more of an empowering for service to receive that boldness for service in whatever way God leads you. I know the word empowerment is not in scripture so don't go there. I think you understand exactly what i mean. REalize i have had more then one event in my life and so when I talk about my healing the only thing i did was receive healing from God and God confirmed it through gifts of the Spirit were present. | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 251 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
Turtle, I would never want to rob you or anyone else of their testimony of the faithfulness and the blessings they have received of the Lord. I too, thank the Lord for your healing by means we may or may not understand. All Christians have the Holy Spirit but there is no scriptural purpose for tongues nor grandious miracles to try to get unbelieving Israel to understand that Christ or His authorized apostles are in their midst. 1 Cor 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not...". At Pentacost it says that everybody from the all the nations heard in their own tongue; Peter spoke normally. If Buddists and American Indians can speak in tongues, anybody can speak in tongues. It's not a Holy Ghost language. You can try the rest of your life to look for verses to try to find out why we baptize in water. I challenge everybody and they still cannot find them because they are not there. (Message edited by Wyoming on August 25, 2005) | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
My dear ones, Why would I a hindu want to convince you about this experience? I showed you there is no biblical ground in what you have said. Wyoming, you don't seem to know the Lord or have a personal relationship. Man didn't teach me all this, or else I would be standing for some denomination. I plead with those who haven't received the Holy Spirit, to receive Him. That experience will transform your life. Sidharth | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 386 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.19 |
belongingtwoJesus did you recieve Christ ever has your personal Savior or only the HOly Ghost. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
I received Jesus as my Lord and Savior at the age of 9, and He healed me of sarcoma(cancer). I believed He died for my sins and rose again on the third day, and 'His sinless blood maketh an atonement for my sins'. To receive the Holy Spirit is a totally different experience. Again, you find in Act2, Act8, Act10, Act19, that all who received the Holy Spirit were born-again. The disciples were born-again after Jesus' resurrection as Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit and said, "Receive ye My Spirit.". But after that they were told to wait in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Spirit. They went to Jerusalem and waited there in the Upper Room. The Bible tells me, that there were 120 disciples, and that they ALL spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. SIdharth | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 389 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.30 |
belong2Jesus, When you say I am a hindu it makes one wonder so define Hindu and how a hindu can be a christian. When I think of Hindu i think of someone that is part of the hindu religion. And I personally dont' believe you can serve two masters. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
1 Corinthians 1: 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. This passage fascinates me; why would Paul very clearly articulate that he didn't make it a practice to baptize and that he wasn't called to do that? Who WAS sent to baptize? John the Baptist, and he practiced a baptism unto repentance and said repeatedly that he (John) baptized with water but the one who came after him (Christ) would baptize with the Holy Spirit (NOT the Holy Spirit AND water). Jesus himself was baptized but did HE baptize anyone? John 4:2 "although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." Why not? Personally, I don't have a problem with someone choosing to use water baptism as a means to symbolize their new birth in Christ. I do take issue with being told that it is an act of obedience to Christ -- the inference being that not being water baptized is an act of disobedience. | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 392 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.30 |
Common-sense have you seen how much certain topics seem to overlap on these boards. lol Okay in the passage you mentioned I believe there was a problem in the early church of people bickering over who they were baptized by and that one was better then the other. And so Paul was glad his name was out of that picture. I think he was trying to correct them in this passage about that it didnt' matter. What matters is we be baptized by the Spirit. | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 393 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.30 |
Common sense want to add one more thought do we not see this type of bickering today with todays christians. I go to this church makes me better or I have this and you don't. It is ridiculous. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
I think he was trying to correct them in this passage about that it didnt' matter. What matters is we be baptized by the Spirit. Turtle, Exactly! Water baptism means nothing. It can't save you and it can't make you any more saved. And if "believer's baptism" is meant to be an "act of obedience" as so many believe, then why wasn't Paul teaching it and practicing it? Btw, I have noticed the overlap of topics. Sometimes makes it hard to keep up. Can't decide whether to limit myself to one or just do duplicate posts.  | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
Turtle, Yes, isn't that type of attitude exactly what has led to the proliferation of cults and authoritarian groups we see represented on FACTNet? There is nothing new under the sun! | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 394 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.30 |
common sense, Yes definitely. And that is why I would like to see unity between brothers and sisters even if we are in different church building. We need our common ground exposed. So we are not fighting against each other but united together in just the basic beliefs. I feel i could worship almost in any denomination but I am more comfortable in some then in others. | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Turtle, Your heart is right. But you know me... if something doesn't jive with scripture, I won't be silenced. There is too much taken for granted that is merely man-made tradition. We won't have unity unless we stick to the scriptures. And if we don't stick to scriptures, I hope the whole thing blows up. It would be justice, either way. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 644 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.208 |
Paul wanted the people to know that it was not 'he' that was important, but his message. He was just the vessel that carried the message. People build up teachers today. Paul wanted to make sure that didn't happen. Baptism was meant to align people to Christ, not the man performing it. | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 395 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.30 |
The bible says to exhort wyoming. I think that was Paul instruction to timothy. Here is a good passage for this. These things command and teach. Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. (1 Timothy 4:11-15) But first he says to set the example. And true timothy was young here and he was talking to youth but it applies to all of us. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 183 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
Godchild, I agree that was Paul's primary point, but when you say that "baptism was meant to align people to Christ," to which baptism are you referring? Ephesians 4 is a call to unity and it cites one baptism and one faith. Yet how many "versions" of that faith have their origins in exactly how water baptism is to be interpreted and practiced and what effect it has? Water baptism definitely has NOT been a uniting issue! That said, let me make it clear that I have no interest in allowing the subject of water baptism to divide us. Unfortunately, the conflict usually tends to arise from someone's insistence that I must be water baptized as an "act of obedience". Unless someone is claiming that water baptism is necessary for salvation, I am willing to leave it well enough alone until it is pressed on me. | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 255 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Common Sense, I'd like to know your background. You can e:mail me at alan.hemenway @ comcast.net | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
BURIED "WITH" OR "LIKE"? Sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was saved. Gal. 3:6-9; Rom. 4:1-13. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom. 10:9-10. The moment a convicted sinner calls upon the name of the Lord he becomes saved "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Of course, God is the One to determine whether or not the sinner is truly penitent and sincere in his call. When a sinner thus "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ" he is "crucified with Christ, ... buried with Christ, ... raised with Christ" and his new life is " hid with Christ in God." Gal. 2:20; Col. 2:10-12; 3:1-4; Rom. 6:1-5. Note very carefully that the Word of God says the Christian has been crucified WITH Christ, not LIKE Him. Exactly in the same miracle way in which the believing sinner has been "crucified with Christ" he has also been "buried with Christ." No where are we told to be buried LIKE Christ was in the waters of the Jordan but all Christians have been buried WITH Christ in His baptismal death. It is, of course, a miracle. And, by the way, why do not some of our religious imitators, who are so eagerly seeking to imitate Christ in His water baptism, try to imitate Him in His crucifixion? All are only too ready to admit that "with" means just exactly "with" and not "like" when Paul says: "I am crucified with Christ," but when he says: "buried with Christ", then many are eager to get their sectarian followers to seek to imitate Christ's water baptism. This they do in spite of the plain fact that the apostle is speaking of Christ's burial in death and not His burial in the waters of Jordan. My friends, be well assured of this: Christianity is not our miserable imitation of the earthly life of Jesus of Nazareth as He lived His perfect life of law-keeping under Judaism, Christianity is the life we live after we have been created anew in Christ Jesus: the life of the indwelling Christ who move into all "broken and contrite hearts" the moment His glorious gospel of grace is humbly heard and honestly believed. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom. 5:19. In other words, Adam's disobedience made all of his children like their father, sinners. Now Christ's perfect, law-keeping obedience with His fulfillment of all the physical ordinances is passed on to all who receive Him. With His perfect heart and sinless flesh He obeyed all fleshly tests of character and then "became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Now, that is good news! It is THE good news! It is simply the "gospel of Jesus Christ." I have "obeyed the gospel." That is I have heard with submission, of Christ's perfect, substitutionary life, death, burial and resurrection. He not only died for me. He also lived for me. Therefore his law-keeping and ordinance-keeping obedience is put to my credit as well as His death-obedience. Thank God, as a new creature in Christ I am "complete in Him." Col. 2:10-12. From "Saved By Dry Baptism", by Maurice Johnson. http://www.MauriceJohnsonArchives.com/baptism.htm | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
wyoming i dont think you have ever answered my question . do you beleive in water baptisum and have you been baptised in water. | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 257 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Love, I answered you at... Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:22 pm: | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Did you get this answer yesterday. Someone asked. We can't use use Phillip and the Ethiopian eunoch because, that early in Act, they were still practicing the Jewish traditions and a ceremonial cleansing for prosalytes was part of it. The Eunoch who had come to the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was reading Isaiah 53, out of the old testament. The Eunoch who knows something about Judaism, asks a tentative question, "What doth hinder me to be baptized". The traditional Jewish thing was to perform the ceremony. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
wyoming i read the post and am sorry i did not see it before. i am convinced however that you are still in volved in a cult and that you may not have real salvation after all | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 187 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
Interesting perspective, love22698. I have read a few of Wyoming's posts and am curious as to what causes you to draw those conclusions? | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
. Thank you. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
Paul never baptized because the attention would move onto him. If someone was baptized by a famous preacher today, the person would use it to boost up his ego. It is not to Paul we are baptized into, but Jesus. Wyoming, I think you should ask God, before you spew things against Him. You may think you are right, or you may want to stand your point, and so you may persist with the lies. May the Lord deal with you as He thinks perfect. I leave you to Him. And to turtle, I don't belong to the hindu religion anymore. My birth certificates and educational certificates record my religion as hindu. I don't belong to any religion, I belong 100% to Christ. I don't claim any relationship with the hindu religion. How people can twist what I meant! Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 58 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
When I said, "Why would I a hindu want to convince you about this experience?". I didn't mean I am a hindu, I meant I come from a hindu background and do not belong to any denomination or christian sect to stand my own point. Sidharth | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 399 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.17 |
BelongingtoJesus, I did not mean to offend but to clearify what you mean by being hindu on the other board. I know there are people taht claim the buddist religion as well as christianity and I can not except that. I understand what you mean born into, but doesn't make you one. But the way you said it made me wonder. I wanted clearity in my mine when talking with someone. Thank you for taking time to respond. And glad to know you found the true truth. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
No, turtle you didn't offend me. These discussions don't carry the tone in which one speaks. As you know, the tone matters a lot while speaking. Thank you for your kind post. Yours serving Him, Sidharth | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
Paul never baptized because the attention would move onto him. If someone was baptized by a famous preacher today, the person would use it to boost up his ego. It is not to Paul we are baptized into, but Jesus. belong2jesus, Your first statement seems to make sense from a historical perspective though I'm not sure that it is biblically based. Next, you say that we are baptized into Jesus; again, is that through the Holy Spirit or water? | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 264 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Sidharth, Thank you for letting go and leaving me to God. --Alan. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
the pentacostal CHURCH is not a cult. the once saved always saved bunch is the ones who practice cultism and always talk about others who are as saved as they are. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 195 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
love22698, Have you ever lost your salvation? | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
if i were to get in sin and stay there, i do not think i would go to heaven should i die. i dont beleive one can die say as a drunk and go to heaven. i have never backslid. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 197 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
So, in order to lose your salvation, you must die "in sin"? And there is no way of knowing, prior to dying, whether you have lost your salvation or not? What constitutes being "in sin"? Can you die drunk and still be saved if it was the first time you got drunk? How do you define "backslid"? Sorry to throw so many questions at you, but I've never really had a chance to ask these of anyone who believed they could "lose" eternal life. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 653 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.84 |
common, When I said 'aligning them to Christ' I was referring to the fact that John the Baptist spoke of the Lord, saying, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness: make straight the way of the Lord." And also when Jesus came he said "This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining on Him, This is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 269 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Godchild, I don't think you would equate the visible appearance of the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus like a dove, deity joining with deity, as being baptized in the Holy Spirit as we are. I know that is not what you are saying, but it is a thought. I like the idea that when you repent he transforms you with the Holy Spirit. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 198 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
godchild, So how do you interpret that Scripture in light of the difference between John's water baptism and Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism? They are clearly differentiated. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
if i sin continously after i get saved and still continue to live in sin i am back sliden. the BIBLE says as a tree falls so shall it lie. i can not die in sin and still be saved. thats all i have to say on the matter | ||
| cindig (cindig) Member Username: cindig Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.219.63.66 |
love 22698-If you sin continously after you got saved and continue to live in sin means you never were saved, you never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When a person is saved (truly saved) they are a new creation. Where exactly does the Holy Spirit, who idwells in you, and seals when you are saved go when you loose your salvation? | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
cindig, The bible teaches against willful sinning, and that is deliberately sinning against God, inspite of having the knowledge of truth, the blood of Jesus ceases to operate for such an individual, and there is no more sacrifice for such a person. God doesnot hold us accountible for sins committed unknowingly. When a person is saved, his nature totally changes, from sinful to be a partaker of the divine nature, that means he has divine blood on his soul. A SAVED LIFE AND AN UNCHANGED LIFE IS NOT BIBLICAL. Some people have never been born-again, they just turned a new leaf, no wonder they struggle with sin. Grace of God brings deliverance. Grace of God never permits sin. It is because of the cloud of God's grace, we are nto consumed. Paul warned Christians in 1 Cor6 and Galatians 5, that if they walk after the flesh the result would be death. God's requirement is godly repentance, which leads to salvation. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a temple constantly open to sin. No. Sidharth | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 658 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.150 |
I am so thankful that God loves me, a sinner. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i am glad GOD loves me as a sinner before i was saved and as a CHRISTIAN after i was saved. i do not beleive one can sin and still be saved. that is what ever once saved always saved always falls back on.. you were never really saved to begin with... stupid..i know i am saved and if i were to backslid and stay that way hell would be my destination | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 405 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.59 |
Love i have a thought about sinning after you are saved. God considers us righteous when we accept what Christ did for us on the cross for our sins and we repent. Look at Abrahan who did not know the law but believe in God. He had sin in is life and God consider Abraham righteous because he believed God. Now I am not saying it gives you a license to sin. But I do not know one person that is so holy with out sin beside Jesus and he was God's Son and also God. So how in the world do you go about not sinning? Do you ever gossip, or say something you should not? Do you ever tell a fib, or disrespect someone or not show kindness to someone. So you obey God law one hundred percent. Let me know where you live so I can shake your hand maybe it will rub off on me. We all make mistakes even after we get saved, but all we need to do is ask for forgiveness and realize Christ has already paid the price for our sins. That doesn't mean I purposely do things I know not to do but we all do sin still after being saved. We maynot commit adultry, fornication, homosexuality, drunkness, etc......But sins is sin anything not pleasing to God. You seem a little self righteous to me. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 201 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
love22698, I'm still trying to understand......please bear with me. So basically you are saying that you must work for your salvation? In other words, Christ's sacrifice on the cross was enough to cover your sins prior to salvation, but after you are saved, it is up to you to hold onto it? Turtle asked another of my questions: are you saying that since you were saved, you have lived a sinless life? | ||
| kathleen (kathleen) Intermediate Member Username: kathleen Post Number: 190 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Work out your own salvation in terembling and fear. A Bible verse love22608 is correct. | ||
| david_munson (david_munson) Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 1175 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 65.144.126.190 |
Burkitt puts it like this, Php 2:12 Observe here, 1. The commendation given by St. Paul of his beloved Philippians, for their cheerful obedience to the precepts of the gospel: they always obeyed, that is, ever since their first conversion to christianity, not only while the apostle was upon the spot with them, but since the providence of God necessitated his absence from them; not in my presence only, but now much more in my absence. But how came it to pass that their obedience was greater, when they wanted the apostle for their instructor? Ans. In the absence of one teacher they had another, and him a better that the inspired apostle, even the inspiring Spirit of God, who in the apostle's absence was more immediately present with them by his inward motions, to excite and enable them both to will and to do what is well pleasing to him. O! how good is God at the supplying the wants, and making up the losses of his people! If persecution drives his church's ministers into dungeons, and they cannot hear a voice behind them, they shall have the presence of his Holy Spirit, and hear a voice within them, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it. Observe, 2. A special duty which St. Paul exhorts the Philippians to be found in the practice of, namely, to work out their salvation with fear and trembling; implying, that it should be every christian's great work to be daily working out his own salvation, that is, diligently making use of all means and faithfulness, practising all duties in order thereunto. Note here, 1. The excellency of the object proposed; and that is, salvation: there is salvation held forth and tendered by God to lost sinners, in the gospel. Note, 2. The difficulty of salvation, supposed and implied in the word work; which signifies an exerting our utmost endeavours, in order to the attaining of it. The work of salvation is no lazy man's business, but a work of labour and difficulty, though the difficulties may be overcome by an industrious diligence. Note, 3. The necessity of perseverance, in order to our attaining of salvation: Work out your salvation, that is, perfect and consummate the work which you have happily begun. Note, 4. The manner how we should work out our own salvation: namely, with fear and trembling; intimating, that an holy fear of God, and an humble fear of ourselves, will be of singular use and advantage to us in the working out of our salvation. Observe, 3. The argument or motive to excite unto this labour and diligence in and about the work of salvation; and this is very encouraging, because God works with us, and in us, ver. 13. For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do. That God works with us, is great encouragement to work; but we must remember God works arbitrarily, and not necessarily; he worketh but of his own good pleasure, as a free agent, who can cease when he pleases. Therefore work with fear and trembling. Learn from the whole, 1. That we can do nothing without God. 2. That he will do nothing without his assistance, he will do nothing without the concurrence of our endeavours: he worketh in us both to will and to do, and we must work with him, in order to the working out of our salvation. ------ I would add Jude 24 to obtain a balance to this. Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. This correctly implies that it is our submission and co-operation with the Spirit of God that allows us to "work out our salvation." Colossians 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister. The Lord does that which we allow and no more. He says that we should not quench the Spirit. We should always seek to be obedient and when we fall,we have an advocate with the father. Dave } | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 202 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
Kathleen, Can you be more specific? Thanks! | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i never said i lived a sinless life but i donot commit sin that i know is sin. if i find i have sinned or made a mistake then i ask THE LORD to forgive me. i do not live in sin...no if we would all live like we should we wouldnt have to ask questions like that | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
also before you ask .. CHRIST DEAT was sufficent for all my sins. i am not saved by works but when we get saved we need to work outour own salvation with fear and trembling.. fear.. the reverence of GOD not fear of man or of the pit. i live right because HE has saved me and i love HIM for it | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i miss spelled deat in the last post i put deat instead sorry | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
sorry agian, i miss spelled death in both last posts, i put deat it should have been death in all three | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 204 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
but i donot commit sin that i know is sin. Wow! That's quite a claim! It's tempting to start getting more specific with my questions, but I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say, I haven't arrived at that point yet. I still get impatient and drive over the speed limit occasionally.  | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 660 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.145 |
love, I haven't heard anyone here say 'I can sin all I want because I believe in Christ'. Christians do not intentionally sin. But we don't boast either, nor do we judge other christians. Why? Because our righteousness is like rags to God. It is only through the Holy Spirit in us that we are acceptable to God. If we say we are without sin, then we no longer need God, do we? What is worse, is by being self-righteous, people who do not know the Lord want nothing to do with Christianity because some christians go around saying you have to be perfect, or that they are unacceptable to God. God wants us just as we are, knowing that He has the power to change us. Only God is perfect. | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 270 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
Working out your salvation means being dilligent to live the Christian life in the salvation that you already have. It does not mean working toward salvation. "No more sacrifice for sin" means that it is not necessary for Christ to be sacrificed every year, like the animal sacrifice of the Annual Atonement. The subject missing in these conversations of God's Grace. All our sins were forgiven once and for all; past, present, and future. If you don't understand that, you don't understand God's Grace and you won't be a joyous liberated Christian. Read the book of Romans over and over again until you understand it. | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.207 |
love22698 i am glad GOD loves me as a sinner before i was saved and as a CHRISTIAN after i was saved. i do not beleive one can sin and still be saved. that is what ever once saved always saved always falls back on.. you were never really saved to begin with... stupid..i know i am saved and if i were to backslid and stay that way hell would be my destination A CONTRADICTION AT ITS BEST! READ what you typed WROTE! Youve sinned we all have sinned so we are all going to hell? I think not ! speal for your}}self! | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.207 |
Hi everyone! sorry for the type O's on the previous message!} | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i did not say i had never sinned but after i got saved i have no reason nor desire to sin | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
love22698, I agree with you, in saying that we must live free from sin. The bible does teach it. But some people say we are not under the law, but under grace. I should say they have wrong definitions of law and grace. Grace isn't license to sin, grace means deliverance from sin. Here's a parable that can help those who need help: A man is given a map to find out his way. There is also a guide to help him. The guide offers his help, but the man refuses and says, "I have to map, I can find my own way.". The man reaches dark areas in his walk and gets lost. He calls the guide and the guide comes to his aid. Now again the man tells the guide he can find his own way using the map, but then he reaches some dense woods and gets lost there. This time he calls the guide and offers the guide the map to help him find his way. The guide says, 'I don't need the map, I made it.". Here the map is the law. The law is good, it shows me the right path. "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. "(Romans 7:12) The law pinpoints at what is sin and what is not. "Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."(Romans 7:7) Then what's wrong with the law? The law does not offer any help. That's where the guide comes: the Holy Spirit. He is the author of the law, and He knows the right path. We just need to be led by Him. Only those who are led by the Spirit belong to God. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."(Romans 8:14) Some say, "The Holy Spirit led me into sin, so that I would humble myself.". That's not true, for the bible says, "He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake."(Psalm 23:3) " But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"(Romans 5:20b) Bigger the pit, longer the rope has to be to pull someone who has fallen into the pit. The same way, where sin is more, grace abounds. Now Paul goes onto say,"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"(Romans6:1,2) Romans 6 deals with truth, Romans 7 talks about one who under the law, and Romans 8 speaks about being led by the Spirit. Without holiness, no man shall see God. One must be separated from sin and the world. The doctrine 'once saved always saved' is a lie. I am not saying, I've never sinned after I came to the knowledge of the Lord. No! I have fallen, but the true, godly kind of repentance demands a 'U' turn from your ways. If you're constantly in sin, even after having the knowledge of the truth, that has set you free, then you have not met with the primary condition of salvation: repentance from dead works. True faith stands, and produces results. Dead faith shows no results. Hope I could make it clear to you. Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
Working out ones salvation is through obedience. Read the whole chapter Philippians 2. To be obedient, one has to be humble. Humility is a major requirement in Christian walk. True humility bows down to thus saith the Lord. True humility is mindful of the will of God, and serving others. This is why Paul says, "Let this mind be in you, that which was also in Christ Jesus"(Philippians 2:5) The mind of Jesus was humble. Totally obedient to God, obedient even unto death on the cross. And He offered Himself as a sacrifice for the entire human race inspite of knowing multitudes would reject Him. Oh, the Jesus mind amazes me! The Spirit of Christ is one of humility and meekness. He who does not have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Him. Paul here is talking about obedience, to the Philippian church, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."(Philippians2:12) We work out our salvation by being obedient to what God wants, by denying ourselves and taking up our cross DAILY. It is not a once-for-all denial. What is a cross? It is not your sickness, dear one. It is not your wife, dear brother; Nor is it your husband, dear lady. A cross is a place where your will and God's will crosses. So what do you do? You carry the cross with you, so that you can die on it, whenever God's will clashes with yours. That's denying self, as Jesus prayed, "Not my will, but Thine be done." In love with Him, Sidharth | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 662 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.37 |
kev, You say you lost your sister and her sons to pentacostalism. We don't own our loved ones. She is taking her own path. She still includes you in her life. You say you are all religious. Being 'religious' is not what God wants from us. God wants us to love Him and one another. It sounds like you are talking 'behind her back' instead of to her. She seems to have found something that was lacking 'for her' before. Have you stopped loving her, or love her less? If not, you need to tell her so. If you want respect for your choices, shouldn't you respect hers? I have a feeling she would love to talk to you about it. She must feel pretty ganged up by her family right now. That's a difficult position for anyone to be in. I know. I was there once. And don't think since she has stopped loving the Catholic church, she has stopped loving you. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 663 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.37 |
common sense, I'll try to answer the question: How many kinds of baptisms are mentioned in the New Testament, and how was John's baptism different from Christian baptism? Matthew 3:11 mentions three baptisms: of water, of the Holy spirit, and of fire. And if we add Christian baptism we have four. John's water baptism was a symbol of repentancre and commitment. The Jew who accepted baptism from John confessed his sins and expressed his determination to live a righteous life. The water baptism practiced by the early Christian church was also a symbolic act. But rather than symbolize repentace, Christian baptism symbolizes the union of the believer with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection (see Rom. 6:1-4). The baptism of the Holy Spirit is defined in 1 Corinthisans 12:13 as that act by which the Spirit unites the believer to Jesus as a member of his body. This spiritual union is the reality symbolized by Christian water baptism. The baptism of fire referred to in Matthew 3:11 has been understood in two different ways. Som take it as a reference to the fire that destroys the unrepentant (wheat and chaff, Matth. 3:12). Others emphasize the many symbolic references to fire in the Old Testament as a purifying agent (Zech. 13:9; Mal. 3:2-3). In this view, the Holy Spirit and fire are closely linked, reminding us that when the Holy Spirit enters our lives he not only joins us to Jesus but also begins a purifying and cleansing process. There are contemporary theological traditions and Scripture. It's important not to read into any New Testament passage its theological rather than biblical meaning. In the Bible, baptism with the Spirit refers to that work of the Holy Spirit by which the believer is united to Christ and to other believers. (1 Cor. 12:13: "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink" (see Rom. 6:3-8). This first took place on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4; Acts 10;45-47; 11:15-17). In one comtemporary theological tradition, however, the phrase 'baptism of the Spirit' identifies the doctrine that God the Holy Spirit fills and empowers believers. This baptism of the Spirit is a "second work of grace," believed to happen subsequent to salvation. Many in this tradition see speaking in tongues as the sign of an authentic baptism of the believer by the Spirit. It is important to know whether he or she uses it biblically or theologically. How did it happen that the believers in Acts 19:1-7 did not receive the Spirit until Paul laid hands on them? Paul asked them if they had received the Spirit when they believed. He clearly assumed that if they were believers they would already have the Spirit. A few questions revealed that these men had not yet heard of Jesus but had responded to the call of John the Baptist to repent in preparation for the appearance of the Messiah. As soon as they heard of Jesus they were baptized, and "when Paul placed his hands on them" (during the baptism) the Spirit came upon them. I want you to know I found a lot of these answers in a book that is verified by scripture. I think the 'processes' results in one baptism. | ||
| cindig (cindig) Member Username: cindig Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.219.63.66 |
love22698-Ok, let me get this straight. You say if a person deliberatley sins, Jesus blood ceases to operate? Where is that in scripture? And you are talking about a person that has been saved, right? Then you say God doesn't hold us accountable for sins we unknowlingly commit? How do you unknowlingly commit a sin? So, if you sin and know it your salvation is in jeopardy, but if you sin and are ignorant and don't know you are sinning, God won't hold you accountable????? Seriously now, you don't really believe that, do you? You say a saved life and unchanged life is not Biblical? I agree with that, then how do you think a saved person can loose their salvation? You say God doesn't permit sin? Of course God doesn't like sin, that is why He sent His son to die on the cross, so His blood covers our sin. Is it an excuse to sin, OF COURSE NOT!!!! There is a big difference betweeen making sin your lifestyle and sinning. We are all going to sin, we are human??? If we didn't sin Jesus wouldn't have needed to come. Just because you are saved doesn't mean you are perfect. If a truly saved person is living in sin, they will be absolutely miserable. God will squeeze them and won't leaven them alone. If you can sin and not care, then I would question that you have ever been saved. Tell me something, what do you think the people really believe that think their salvation is eternal? What do you honestly think we believe? Do you think that if you died and sinned and didn't ask for forgivess that you would go to hell? You say God's requirement is Godly repentance with leads to salvation????? Where is that in scripture????? I'm having a major problem with the word "lead". Until a person realizes they are secure in the Lord, they will never be able to understand what exactly happened on the Cross. By saying a saved person can loose their salvation, is telling God His sacrifice of His Son wasn't quite enough for us to make it to heaven. I asked on 8-27 where the Holy Spirit that sealed us when we are saved goes. Does he break the seal, then leaves? Why would the Bible ever talk about a seal, if it could be broken? I hope I didn't come on too strong, these are questions I have always had, and it seems no one can ever answer them. (Message edited by cindig on August 28, 2005) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 664 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.49.148 |
kevy, my last post was not meant for you. You seem to be doing all you can. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
no i did not say JESUS BLOOD is insufficent. it is sufficent but only if we accept it. when a person they certianly arent living for GOD nor trusting HIS BLOOD. i have said enough and am no longer interested in the discussion. since you twist everything i say. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 207 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.238.89.54 |
Godchild, A lot of good information there, but I come back to my same questions. You said: Matthew 3:11 mentions three baptisms: of water, of the Holy spirit, and of fire. And if we add Christian baptism we have four. In other words, "Christian baptism" is not there! The baptism of the Holy Spirit is defined in 1 Corinthisans 12:13 as that act by which the Spirit unites the believer to Jesus as a member of his body. This spiritual union is the reality symbolized by Christian water baptism. Amen to the definition of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And, again, I have no problem if you want to use "Christian water baptism" as a personal, voluntary symbol of that, but it is neither commanded nor taught in Scripture as an "act of obedience" in identifying with Christ. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
"You say if a person deliberatley sins, Jesus blood ceases to operate? Where is that in scripture? And you are talking about a person that has been saved, right?"- Cindig "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Cindig, read the above passage carefully. This is speaking to Christians. The passage is crystal clear, that one can backslide if they sin WILLFULLY. Again, I didn't say Jesus' blood was insufficient to cleanse us from our sins. When I said the below in my previous post: "The bible teaches against willful sinning, and that is deliberately sinning against God, inspite of having the knowledge of truth, the blood of Jesus ceases to operate for such an individual, and there is no more sacrifice for such a person" I didn't mean, God was unable to cleanse us. No! There is no sin, whether wilfull or not, that the blood cannot cleanse. But if we deliberately keep on doing the same sin, even after the knowledge of the truth, then your sins have separated you from your God, and Jesus' blood cannot cleanse you, because the blood of Jesus goes into effect only after true godly repentance. Again, I say that if you backslide, you can come back to the Lord. For the Lord Himself said in Jeremiah 3, that He was married to the backslider. That means He will do everything He can to bring him back. But since man has been given a free-will, God will not tamper with his free-will. It's 'whosoever will'. "How do you unknowlingly commit a sin?"-Cindig If I do not know the truth, and if I don't know what I did was a sin. I committed a sin unknowingly. The bible says, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."(James4:17). Now, the Holy Spirit will chasten you and instruct you in the right path. If you are yielded to Him, and sensitive to Him, He will correct you and let you know what He has to say about what you did. A saved person can lose his salvation, by willfully sinning. Simple. If I give my child a bath, and after he is clean, if he still persists on playing in the mud and he does, it makes him dirty. You are right in what you said, some people haven't gone through that change from sinful nature to a partaker of the divine nature. They just turned a new leaf. I didn't connect, "saved life and unchanged life" with loosing ones salvation. I meant some have never been saved. Don't isolate what I said and club it to something else. Here's what I said: "When a person is saved, his nature totally changes, from sinful to be a partaker of the divine nature, that means he has divine blood on his soul. A SAVED LIFE AND AN UNCHANGED LIFE IS NOT BIBLICAL. Some people have never been born-again, they just turned a new leaf, no wonder they struggle with sin." "You say God's requirement is Godly repentance with leads to salvation????? Where is that in scripture?????"-Cindig For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7: 10) "Does the Holy Spirit break the seal?"-Cindig No He does not break the seal. No one can. But you yourself can. God wont push you to hell, your sins will drag you to hell. I saw a documentary 'Raised from the dead". A person was dead placed in the mortuary for 3 days and he was taken to a Reinhard Bonkke meeting, and was raised from the dead. He related his experience in heaven and hell. He said, the angel of God, on reaching the gate of hell, waved his hand up and then down and the door opened with a great big sound. There he saw absolute torment. People were being tormented terribly. One person caught his attention: a Pastor. He was crying and yelling in pain saying, "Don't you see me tormenting? Help me! I just stole a small amount of money. I am willing to repay. Please help me." If you could see the whole documentary, it will surely bless you. At the end, it's not the theology of the preachers that stand, but God's Word. The bible is crystal clear, and you better stay in with the truth, instead of man's filthy interpretations. None of these preachers who preach 'one saved always saved' doctrine operate the gates of heaven. Sidharth} | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.21.72.63 |
Sidharth, Folks who believe that you can lose your salvation confuse scriptures on salvation with scriptures on the walk of the believer. Some of your references are clearly referring to the unsaved. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: A I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall and man pluck them out of my hand." 1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the son of God." How can you saved-and-lost folks believe that eternal is less than eternal? How can the Lord give you something and call it eternal and take it away? You will probably try to say that we can gave it up. No! God says it is eternal. Repeat: Working out your salvation means being dilligent to live the Christian life in the salvation that you already have. It does not mean working toward salvation. "No more sacrifice for sin" means that it is not necessary for Christ to be sacrificed every year, like the animal sacrifice of the Annual Atonement. [Then the verse switches to the unsaved.] The subject missing in these conversations of God's Grace. All our sins were forgiven once and for all; past, present, and future. If you don't understand that, you don't understand God's Grace and you won't be a joyous liberated Christian. --Alan. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
Alan/wyoming, You quoted 1 John2:1. Why didn't you quote verse two aswell? "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." Christ is the propitiation for sin, not only for the Christian but also for the WHOLE WORLD. Sin's result is the same, it hasn't changed: Death. The soul that sinneth shall die(Ezekiel 18:20). But anyone can have eternal life through Jesus Christ. Never in the bible do we find anyone saying 'Sin is permissible'. If we sin, we needn't get all worked up; God has provided a way of reconciliation: through His blood. Some people have never been born-again, they have just joined some church and were baptized in water. If a person does not believe in what the divine blood of Jesus can do, they are without hope. The blood of Jesus is powerful, and can devour sin. The blood of Jesus sets us free from the devil and sin. What wonder working power there is in the blood! Working out your salvation surely doesn't mean working for your salvation. For salvation is not by works lest any many should boast. But obedience is a must to enter God's rest. "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it" (Hebrew 4:1) In John 10:27, 28: it is true that no one can pluck us out of His hand. But we can get out of His hand through wilfull sinning. This teaching that you have mentioned is based on some isolated scriptures. In hebrew 12:15, it says "without Holiness no man shall see God." In 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 it says: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Here Paul is telling the christians in Corinth not to be deceived. You must realize Paul writes this in response to the fornication that creeped into the church at Corinth. "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. " In fact in 1 Corinthians 5:11 he says "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is CALLED A BROTHER be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." Sin is sin, and any sin will cause you from entering heaven. It's a different thing when you're saved and living for Him. You may fall or sin, but you despise what you did. You repent and never again endorse it. That's true repentance. Eternal means forever and ever, but you have to keep it. If you let go, it's no longer yours. Only them that "stand firm till the end will be saved". Again, Jesus said, "him that believeth in me shall be saved and have eternal life." In the english language, 'eth' is used to represent a continous work. Eg: sinneth means sin and continue to sin. Worketh means work and continue to work. And so believeth means, believe and continue to believe. The bible instructs us not to grieve the Holy Spirit. not to quench Him. To quench means: (1) to cool by plunging into cold water; (2)put out the fire (3) crush completely. God's accusation against lukewarm christians found in Revelation 3:15-20. God says He will spew out such people from His mouth. He will spew them right into the Great Tribulation. I come from a hindu background, I say again. I don't have a preconcieved notion about the Word of God. The Holy Spirit graced me and taught me. I do not take it light, the grace He has given me. He told me to take everything whether by word, prophecy, vision, dream, or any other manifestation to the Word. He told me the Word would be my safety. I believe Him more than many so called preachers of righteousness. I'm sure Adam didn't even think Eve would give that rotten fruit to him. It's through people you trust the most and who aren't yielded to the Holy Spirit, that the devil spews out lies. God knows who belong to Him. The bible says in 2 Peter 1:9, "But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his past sins." The bible never says your future sins are cleansed, only your past sins are forgiven and cleansed as you obey 1 John 1:9. If you sin, the fountain of blood is still open to you to come and be cleansed. But if there is sin between you and your God. It cuts off your relationship with Him. God is serious about sin in this final hour. If you are going to believe, you can't live free from sin, that's what your life is going to be: bound in sin. Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
"For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"(Hebrew 10:26) ""No more sacrifice for sin" means that it is not necessary for Christ to be sacrificed every year, like the animal sacrifice of the Annual Atonement."-Alan Paul is saying here in Hebrew 10:26, if you sin wilfully even after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice. "No more sacrifice". Yes ofcourse, Jesus is not being crucified or sacrificed every year.He was sacrificed once and for all, and He remains the sacrifice; the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Jesus is no longer your High Priest, you wilfully sin. Paul says, such people WHO TRAMPLE the blood of Jesus under their foot, who had received the knowledge of the truth, that sets them free, but still continues to sin, can expect nothing but judgment which shall devour them. How people twist scriptures to fit their theology! "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."(hebrew 6:6) Speaking about Christians who sin and fall away or backslide, Paul says this. What happened to eternal salvation? "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. "(hebrew 6:7,8) If your life isn't living witness to the death and resurrection of Jesus, you haven't been born-again. Your life is just full of briers and thorns. Jesus uses the same words for those who profess to belong to Him. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?'(Matthew 7;16) Then He goes onto say, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"(matthew 7:21) I know you will never agree with me, Allan, because you have been taught that way in your church. Many people think they are preaching for God, but in reality they are preaching against His gospel of grace. What does Grace teach us? "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"(Titus 2:11-13) Grace has a different message than most christians preach today. Grace teaches us to say NO to ungodliness. My sincere plea, please go to the Lord and ask Him to explain this, instead of writing a whole lot of junk without proper knowledge.Not to offend you,dear, but to let you know that God speaks and has much to say about His Word. Study the Word of God, and let the scripture interpret itself. The Holy Spirit is a marvelous teacher. He is very real and very present help. Hoping you respond rightly, Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
I don't wish to continue the discussion. I would like to bring up only some profitable discussions. This kind of discussions reach no where. I honor God's Word and the Word is the paramount, not man's belief or interpretation. I know people who have preached this message and later they have repented and said, 'I believed that because Billy Graham preached the same message. I thought "How could he go wrong? he is a man of God who is bring used greatly!" '. But those who really want to know God's Word can know, if they aren't held up with their own interpretations. God knows how to teach His Word. Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
TO KEVY, No, pentacostals are not cults. There may be cults in pentacostal denomination. But what the true pentacostals believe is bible. Please read my post number:44, 46 47 and so forth. I come from a hindu background, and I find the Pentacostals better than most of the denominations. Ofcourse, certain Pentacostals are just as dead as a log, there is no life, no love in them. But true pentacostals are full of life and power from on high. If what you said about your sister is true, that she keeps away from you. Then she has some problem. Bible pentacost is when the Holy Spirit comes to reside or dwell inside a believers, as on the day of Pentacost. The Act2, Act8, Act9, Act10, and Act19 experience is still valid today and for all Christians irrespective of their denominations. Don't fight that experience, it's for bible believers. Please read my previous mail on the Holy Spirit baptism for clarity. Don't mistake me, I am not a Pentacostal. I love all of them, whether pentacostals, lutherans, charismatics, baptists etc, because Jesus died for all of them. He didn't die for a particular sect alone. If you read my post 44 , i speak of what is wrong with most pentacostals and charismatics. Sidharth Mohandas | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
sidharth mohandas, Thanks for the input! BUT ,Pentecostal's from my own experience are arrogant! Why ??? They allways treat people lower than them! As if to say "look at that poor lost soul" BULL SHIT! I pray every day and go to church on sunday. My grandmother went to church allmost every night and sat and did her rosery every day. Is she going to hell??? I think not. Any pentecostals want to answer that please? (without preaching to me) She had sooo much faith you could smell it. As far as pentecostalism being a cult ask anyone from other religions and they will tell you "yes!" and they would probably say "STAY AWAY FROM THEM"! Sorry i don't want to get mixed up with them . But i will continue seeing my sister ,and its not just me she is ignorring its the whole damn family.! Thanks for letting me vent! | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
And god (little g) Hates arrogance! | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
kevykev... there may be some who treat others that way same as baptist who will lowrate any pentacostal around but as a denoantion they dont. i certainly dont and neither does THE CHURCH i attend. and by the way we dont use the words you used in thelast post either. | ||
| anonymous2005 (anonymous2005) New member Username: anonymous2005 Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.51.131.132 |
Kevykev35, after hearing the tone of your last email...how are you treating your sister? Are you condemning her for seeking out another religion? Are you making her not want to be around you for your negative comments? Just a thought. God is love and the words you have used in your posts don't really have the love of God. You are correct with no one should have arrogance regardless of what church. If you are truly a Christian then you should have the fruits of the spirit and that is the difference. Christians I thought were suppose to be "Christ Like". Just something to keep in mind. Love your sister and her family no matter what. Just love them. Hold no bitterness toward her or anyone and see if you don't see a difference in your relationship with them and others. I do attend a Pentecostal Holiness church "Apostolic" and one thing my Pastor always preaches is the love of God, treat others as you want to be treated. Look down on no one. We are all trying to make it to the same place. I will be praying for you and your sister. God Bless you!!!! | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
I say we should all respect one another. and ANONYMOUS 2005 read did you read at all about the love i have for my sister still? Thats far from condemning her....I do love our higher power. I never ever say anything negative to her at all..ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND! Believe me ok question for you anonymous!!???????/I am not a pentecostal would you talk to me ??? I mean have a normal conversation without preaching...????/?? Bet you can't! lol Thats the problem ...when i am intraduced to someone from my sisters church everything is fine,but when talk of christ and how I worship comes up we are all shunned pushed asside..they walk away never to talk to anyone other than there people in there clan..I could care less but its a little experiment i have been doing for the last five years and let me tell you it works every time. I was hoping to find at least someone that would talk about anything other than preaching the word.( or converting) | ||
| bee (bee) Member Username: bee Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.235.45.162 |
Kevykev35, Without hearing your sisters side it is hard to say but perhaps & this is only perhaps, she is feeling that you are not open to what has happened in her life. I was raised Luth. my whole life but was lost & when I shared my faith with a friend who was still Luth. she becamse very upset with me for my testimony & the fact that I was lost & now was born again. Finally I said to her why am I not upset for what you believe. She never said anymore. Perhaps the Lord has you & your sister on different paths right now for whatever reason. And He is big enough to move either of you if He see's fit. My belief is you must trust Jesus payment on the cross on your behalf in order to be saved. One must be born again as Jesus said. I once met a lady in a store who was trying to tell me that all should speak in tongues & how she had offended her baptist nieghbor in sharing this. I told her there was no greater gift then Love. If one is given the gift of tongues PTL, if one if given another gift it is the Lord who has given the other gift & scripture is clear tongues without love is nothing. Jesus made it so clear for us. He said I give you a new command to Love one another & by this all will know we are His. If she is in an unhealthy place He can move her & help you to love her where she is at right now. 1st. Cor 13 helps me a lot to know how to love another. I hope this helps. Jesus Bless You. | ||
| anonymous2005 (anonymous2005) New member Username: anonymous2005 Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.51.131.132 |
Sure could. I do it everyday. I will be honest...I love God and talk about him a lot but I can talk to you with out trying to convert you or preaching to you. The only thing I can tell you about your sister is maybe she needs to balance out. God had to balance me out and maybe she needs to let God do that for her.... here is my email.....feel free to email me anytime... jng31313@msn.com Have a blessed day! | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
Are you a pastor for a church? anonymous? | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
bee bee , Please spare me the preaching to. Thanks but i don't need to be preached to. And you are right i don't like that she is in a pentecostal church.. From the likes of Jim Jones and, David Keresch, Its a very dangerous decision. I hope you understand my concern. My sister is being controlled by the church! She is told what to wear what not to wear , Where to go, Where not to go. How not to cut her hair. Every aspect of her life is being controlled.. I mean COME ON!!!!! ..Are you people blind? deaf? Sorry for the harshness? Does anyone agree with me? I can think of a lot of people that do. Don't get me wrong worshipping a higher power (god) is great but pentecostalism? PLEASE! There are other options ..As long as you worship. | ||
| bee (bee) Member Username: bee Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.238.13.19 |
Kevykev35, Yes I agree with you if these things are true that it is control. Have you talked to her about it? | ||
| anonymous2005 (anonymous2005) New member Username: anonymous2005 Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.51.131.132 |
kevykev35, No, I am not a Pastor. I just read your last post and wanted you to know I saw documentary on MSNBC and they had something on Pentecostalism, it is one of the fastest growing religion, there are other religions incorporating some aspects of Pentecostalism in there church services...As for your sister....What church is she affiliated with? Is she doing these out of conviction or because man told her to? | ||
| wyoming (wyoming) Intermediate Member Username: wyoming Post Number: 276 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 199.156.164.245 |
Sidhartha, Hebrews 10:26 talk about some who have heard the gospel but rejects it. Almost all of the scriptures you give are verses that are talking about the unsasved and you are using them to argue that a Christian can lose their salvation. You use one or two scriptures that are exhortations to the saved but do not give a consequence of losing their salvation. It's amazing as to the simple things that you don't undersdtand! You don't know the difference between the scripture on salvation and the scriptures on the walk of the believer. When Martin Luther came out of Roman Catholicism, not all of Roman Catholicism came out of him. I can see where you came out of Hinduism but not all Hinduism has come out of you. The eastern religions and culture are very strong in discipline and works and keep you in a state of anxiety. God's graciuous arrangement for us liberates you from all fear. I don't go to church; I am part of the church to which all true Christians belong. And I am also outside of sectarianism. http://www.ChurchGrowth.CC is who I am. (Message edited by Wyoming on August 29, 2005) | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
Anonymous Thamks for the info on the documentry. Its the religion and the church combined on why these people do the extreme changes. It was in the bible somewhere that women have to grow there hair long... I agree wearing certain clothes is a good idea..look at mtv! They mine as well be nude. But what bugs me is the mental change. I'm just hurt that they turn from there family there own flesh and blood. | ||
| kevykev35 (kevykev35) New member Username: kevykev35 Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.243.81.27 |
bee bee Yes we all have tried to talk to her. But again its like talking to a steppferd wive. Thanks Bee Bee | ||
| cindig (cindig) Member Username: cindig Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.219.63.66 |
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH: neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch thme out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29) By you thinking that you, yourself can snatch yourself out of God's hand; you are saying that you are stronger than GOD. | ||
| turtle (turtle) Intermediate Member Username: turtle Post Number: 410 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.39 |
Kevykev, have you ever sat down with your sister and asked her what she believes. Asked her about her faith. You might find that she is not that much different then a catholic. What happens is you got two extremes in doctrine here. What you need to do is find if there are any similiarities and really do some talking. You dont' have to agree but see if she still believes the basics. I have meet catholics and one thing I know I agree with them is that we believe Jesus Christ is Lord. Now I do not have a rosary or take commune the way ou do but I do pray and take commune. I do not confess to a priest my sins but I confess to Jesus. Maybe what you need to do is sit and talk to her. Ask her why she became a pentecostal. You might be surprised. Only thing I wonder about if she is not under legalism by the way she dresses. So ask her why they all dress the same in long dresses. See if she believes in the HOly Trinity not all pencostals do then you might be right then agree you all are different but then you might just find you are very similiar just expressing your beliefs differently. May God help you find truth. If your sister and you both love God as you claim you will meet her half way to discuss with her about what she believes. Unless you think catholics is the only true christian faith and then that is another discussion. | ||
| anonymous2005 (anonymous2005) New member Username: anonymous2005 Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: |
