| Author | Message | ||
     MichaelStuhler (152.163.101.12) |
For those that have posted about the Living Word Church aka Walk founded by John Robert Stevens, this group was far ahead of its time by teachings in the 70s that are only now making the circuit within the legitimate Christian communities. Since the death of John Stevens, the group appears to have taken a possible turn away from his original teachings and doctrines and the message is now questionable in the minds of many and particularly 2nd and 3rd generation followers of which many feel betrayed by heavy handed shepharding and leaders who themselves lived lives contradictory to scripture. However, in defense of the Living Word, it reached it's pinnacle in the early to mid-70s when the group had many churches and followers throughout the world. The doctrine was conservative Christian but had an emphasis on the 5-fold ministries, gifts of the Spirit and an emphasis on creative and personal prophecy. Further, they were forerunners of return to true New Testament Church order and worship form and style...something that no other movement can take credit for. The name of John Robert Stevens has been slandered "after his death" when this man of God is no longer alive to defend himself. However, in the days that he lived, his personal life and holiness was never attacked although many who did not agree with his doctrines or were jealous of his following sought opportunities to make such attacks and accusations against him. Having known John Robert Stevens, I can attest that this was a man of God. He was not a "drunk" nor was he a "womanizer" as accused after his death. In his lifetime, he stood very much for the opposite...once reprimanding a brother before the entire congregation for pouring a mixed drink into punch during a church wedding reception; and on many occasions counseling "against" womanizing and admonishing his followers to "hate the sin of lust". While todays doctrines of the Walk may, in fact, be questionable based on some of the recent posts I have read, I have not been in one service in 20 years to confirm or deny whether accusations made against the current leadership and true or false. I would suggest though that all churches have some problems no matter how hard leadership tries to do the right thing. But one thing I do know...I was a part of the movement in the 70s and early 80s, knew John Stevens personally and he left an impression on me that in 20 years has never died. He was a man who loved God so much that he sought after Him with all of his heart. In his last days, his judgment may have been affected by his cancer, by medication or even the will to live and see the continuance of his movement. No one is perfect. But of all the men I have known that have come and gone preaching the gospel, this man left the most profound impact on my life and revelation of what I believe to be the truth. I believe he knew Jesus and that Jesus knew him...and that he is with the Lord now. I have taken the time to analyze posts by critics of the Walk and those who post in its favor. It seems sad to see that the movement now is only seemingly a shell of what it used to be and that many of those posting have little or no knowledge of the Bible. Why that is today, I do not know since I left when John Robert Stevens passed away and I began to see doctrinal error emerge. However, when he was alive and well, I saw only good, righteousness and a sincere man who loved God. If I missed something and was blind, then so be it and God will have the final say-so. But I felt compelled in the end, to make this post in defense of a man who no longer is here to defend himself and the work of his hands through prayer. Whether John Robert Stevens was right or wrong is now in the hands of our Lord. How he is judged in the end is also in God's hands. But for the many critics out there, I have this to say.."At least he lived and died trying." He was a man who tried, desired and wanted to build a church for people of all races and nations to come into love and fellowship with Jesus Christ. To me, John was a good man. May God Bless All Of You. | ||
| Anonymous (68.48.60.21) |
What an idiot | ||
| The Ghost of Dangerfield (69.44.60.74) |
Stuhler: You still can't get "no respect"! My legacy lives on. Sincerely, Rodney | ||
| Anonymous (64.65.136.84) |
MichaelStuhler, Can you comment on the in-depth expose' of John Robert Stevens and "The Walk" by Woodrow Nichols? What can you say about Royal DeWayne Cronquist? What do you know about Steven's occult library? | ||
| MichaelStuhler (64.12.117.20) |
Regarding R.D. Cronquist..I knew him. He pastored Coniah Chapel in San Diego and left after a supposed blow-up with John Stevens over an alleged misappropriation of funds (he purchased an airplane) and some other issues. He went on to start hos own movement elsewhere and JRS used to say that he had gone crazy. Whether that was true or not, I do not know. When R.D. taught and spoke or was in the "in crowd" in the Walk...he was a very flamboyant guy and an excellent speaker. I read the info by Woodrow Nichols but can't remember everything he wrote. I just remember that my thoughts were that alot of things written and rumored were partial truths or half-truths taken out of context by others. I would want to review his writing again though before I commented more than that. The so-called occult library....this is what I know John used to say: He would say that in order to effectively deal with the occult and "deeper things of Satan" that the scripture talks about...you had to know how it worked. So he studied some of it. He once said that he learned alot from a practicing witch that he tried to convert and in the end she tried to kill him with a curse, He said that it boomeranged on her and (I cannot recall what happened to her)...she either died or became very ill. Having made my positive comments about John Stevens, let me just say this to clarify some things, please. I believe he was a man who sincerely desired to serve the Lord and started off the right way. Many of the things attributed to Latter Rain, he denounced in the services and specifically said the Walk was "not latter rain". I vividely recall that. I left the group and was on my way out before John passed away and there were reasons...scriptural ones. Some of the things like reading auras, mini-hoonies (little people he claims he spoke with and ministered to )...some of the Walk's teachings and conduct of those in authority gave some really negative signs and I left because I was scared things were going off track. However, many of the things JRS taught were very good and real and there was an emphasis placed on a personal relationship with THE Jesus Christ in the Bible. I believe JRS loved the Lord....I really do. Sometimes people can love God and yet still be deceived in some things. Show me any religious movement or Christian group that has ALL knowledge and is perfect in doctrine. We have various groups because of doctrinal differences so if one wished to be overly critical, each of those groups could call the other "deceived" or accuse them of promoting inaccurate or unsound teaching....and the Walk has its share of critics and for good reason. I am not disagreeing. But what I am saying is that I believe the grace of God covers those who are sincere and love Christ and have accepted Him as Lord and Saviour...even if they make mistakes. Some of the accusations about JRS are just wrong. I knew him. He was NOT a womanizer and stood up against that type of behavior. But when he and Martha had their split...people took sides and accusations came out. Yet before then, those same people who accused him later were staunch supporters. So consider the source. I cannot judge the situation with he and Marilyn because I do not know. There, unfortunately, are many in the ministry and in life who have had the misfortunes of divorce. Is it right? No. But by the grace of God, we are given second chances and there are many in our churches today who have picked up the pieces and moved on...desiring to try again and believing for God's grace to cover their sin of divorce and mistakes. I cannot judge JRS repentence and no one else should either. That is between he and God. If he had an occult library...does that mean he was a memebr of the occult? Is he guilty by association? I think not. Maybe he did practice the occult...but we do not really know that. What if he really was studying it so he could write about it or explain certain practices to Christians or even minister to those caught up in the bondage? I am not saying one way or the other. But I believe a man should be judged and remember on the factual things we do know about him...not on rumors, guesses, or even appearances...unless we are sure and they are backed up with fact. I am out of the Walk and the reason is because I disagreed with enough things in it to leave. Regarding Woodrow Nichols...and no disrespect intended here...but how would he know? Was he in the group? I never met him and I KNOW he he was not in any place of authority within. If I recall, he read some "This Weeks" and took afew lines out of context from the rest of the article and attacked JRS as some kind of heretic. Maybe he heard some rumnors from disgruntled ex-members. I have read and participated in some of the sites accusing the Walk as being a cult and communicated with ex-members. Some of what they write is pure balony and nothing but bitterness. Some is probably true. Unless we were there, we really only have one side of the story...right? As a detective, I know you need both sides sometimes before you just read what someone writes and assume just becausr they said something happened a certain way that it really happened that way. Specially if they are bitter and hold a grudge. I was mistreated in the Walk by some people....but not by JRS. I have been mistreated in other very credible Christian movements by members and leaders alike at times in my life. As humans, we...they...and some on the Walk all makes mistakes. It does not mean the whole group is bad or wrong. That is all I am saying. When I read and participated in websites where mainly ex-members posted, I joined in. I found myself sometimes agreeing and after reading enough of what they wrote...even taking their side at times. But as I later went back and looked at things objectively based on my own experience and not through the eyes of others writing on the boards of whose character I know less about that JRS's character...I cannot bring myself to agree with either side totally. I can only say that many of the things written about JRS in a negative way...I do not know to be true...some of I know to be false and others are half truths or rumors that over the years have been embellished upon. In the end, the matter is one between JRS and the Lord. I believe that he really tried to serve God. I do not think he bult a church with his own hands with the idea of starting a cult. He may have been influenced by others and may have made mistakes along the way...some bad. But God also looks at the heart...at his intentions. And whick one of us has not made a bad mistake along the way in our own life and yet we depend on, hope for and claim the4 grace of God and blood of Jesus for forgiveness and for restoration. How many of us have made mistakes that we probably do not even know about? Thank God that He looks at the heart or else, we might all be in hell for something we failed to repent of before we died because we thought we were doing the right thing. My point? A person can make mistakes and still be forgiven and accepted by the Lord. Also...I think JRS did alot more good than the bad he is accused of after death where he cannot even defend himself. Finally...to the person that called me and "idiot" above. Did you notice I put my name on my posts because I am sincere and not afraid to say who I am. Yet someone who calls another names and hides behind the screen name of "Anonymous"...to me..is a "coward". For those who would like to know what went on the Walk, I will give very honest accounts of what I knew. If some things were "rumored" but I was not there to see or hear them, I will let you know. If I did see or hear certain things forst hand, I will let you know that. Perhaps then, the truth about the Walk and JRS could be better understood by those interested...as I have no ulterior motives and nothing to gain one way or another by posting and answering questions. If I do not know the answer, I will say so. So please feel free. Did JRS prophesy death to certain people....yes...that was not only rumored and known by members when I was there, but it was once mentioned and referred to by him in a service I atteneded. Did he believe in UFO's? Yes. But many scientists also believe in life on other planets. JRS believed they were demonic and operated by Nephilem. I heard him talk about this and about underground bases in Brazil. Did he and R.D, Cronquist have differences? Yes. But for many years they were close and much of what R.D. learned was from JRS. Before that I believe R.D. was a Nazarene preacher. I will reread the info by Woodrow Nichols so I can comment more accurately. I hope this answers some questions and perhaps will raise new ones. I would be interested in any comments and wish those participating would not be afraid to post their names, as I may possibly know some of you. Take care. Sorry in advance for type-os...no spellcheck and I am typing fast. If anyone wishes to correspond and ask anything privately that they do not want to post on this site, my email is MSPI007SI@aol.com Feel free to write. Thanks | ||
| MichaelStuhler (152.163.101.12) |
To Anon64: Do I know you? Obviously you have had some exposure to the Living Word back in the 70s and 80s since you mentioned R.D. Cronquist. Any other question or comments by anyone? | ||
| marilyn murphy (204.179.219.251) |
just found this sight and don't know exactly how it works, but i too left the church in the late 80's when my husband, an apostle, left me for the church. he will never know how he devastated the lives of our children, some of you may be the kids who grew up under our regime. i'm really sorry to hear what you all had to go through. why did i hope it was just my family? i will always love jrs, who loved me for who i was and always accepted me, no matter what. he was a true man of god. i feel it was the people who surrounded him who have corrupted what should have been a pure group of people who loved the lord with all their heart. | ||
| Anonymous (67.19.163.20) |
Marilyn: Did your husband leave you for the church or someone younger. What church or churches were you at, by the way, there are only 12 left. I'm feel bad for your kids and pray for a healing for them. I love JRS also, but remember, most of these people were the only ones included in the back room. | ||
| marilyn (198.81.26.106) |
it doesn't matter--it's over. and we survived. | ||
| Anonymous (69.44.62.216) |
If you were over it you wouldn't have posted on 2 other sights. I was only trying to respond in a respectful manner. I wasn't attacking JRS if that is what offended you. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
i didn't say i was over it--i'll never be over it. i am affected for life and so are the kids. the only reason i posted on 2 other sites is because i don't even know what's going on here and why there isn't one site--i just keep finding them. and my opinion is mine only--what you think is none of my business. i can only speak for me and ny kids. i happen to understand what others have gone through and their own experiences, and respect it. btw, for whatever reason, this site is not allowing me now to use my real name. fyi-- | ||
| marilyn (198.81.26.106) |
i didn't say i was over it--i'll never be over it. i am affected for life and so are the kids. the only reason i posted on 2 other sites is because i don't even know what's going on here and why there isn't one site--i just keep finding them. and my opinion is mine only--what you think is none of my business. i can only speak for me and ny kids. i happen to understand what others have gone through and their own experiences, and respect it. btw, for whatever reason, this site is not allowing me now to use my real name. fyi-- | ||
| MichaelStuhler (198.81.26.106) |
Hi Marilyn: Thanks for your email. I was not sure who you were when you wrote to me. I tried to answer you as to what I think happened to the other sites...just too much infighting. I am sure those who did it then will find there way here slowely..lol. Well, I want you to know how sorry I am for you and your family. I too was very devastated. My association with the Living Word pretty much destroyed much of my life. It is amazing that I could be a detective and succeed in that area and yet still be so scarred spiritually and emotionally from all of that. I was married in the Walk and when I left, we hung onto our marriage for 27 years and finally it ended in a divorce because of mainly me...I just lost my sensivity to everything. My wife and I lost touch with one another long ago when I left the Walk because of the anxiety attacks and panic disorders I had just prior to leaving and afterwards for many years. There was a void in my spiritual life, as I did not know where to go or how to fill the place the Walk had left. I was a young man who really loved God and wanted so badly to serve Him....that part of my life was so important and when the Walk died in my life, it was worse than a death in the family because everything I knew and everybody...as well as what I thought I knew about God...was all tied up into that group I had left. And yes, I agree it was those around JRS that corrupted the Walk and probably corrupted him in the end. Perhaps the cancer had its effects too. It is now in God's hands and so is John. For me, I am finally now and only now really seeing that there is life after the Walk...a spiritual one...and understanding how misled maybe I had become. Take the good you learned and hold fast to it. Discard the bones. Keep on walking. Yoir walk is with Jesus and He has everything under His control, including your life and that of your children. God has a plan B for us all and maybe you will find out that the plan B was really Plan A all along. I wish you the best and we can talk more on this board. Let me tell you some of the wonderful things God has done and how real He is and can be...that life in Christ is well....outside of the Walk. JRS would have kicked down the Walk as it is today, I think. Other men of vision have picked up where he left off and moved on. God is the one in control of His Word and He will bring it to pass. What can mere mortal man do? We are nothing. The Walk had to learn that through John's death but never accepted it. Now it appears they are lost. But we should pray for those within the group and at the same time move on ourselves. I wish you the best. Welcome Anon 69 and 67. | ||
| Charla (65.40.127.12) |
Michael, I have been curious for many years about John Robert Stevens and his church. Back in 1971 a very personable young man started coming to our church in Virginia. He had been a member of John's church and only had good things to say about him. He loaned me one of John's taped messages, not because I asked for it... he just said I would probably like it. I took it home and next day put it in the tape player to listen. About 3 sentences into the message the Holy Spirit very clearly spoke to me (inwardly) and said "That's witchcraft". It wasn't my judgment about it because I hadn't heard enough to make an assessment of it. I simply turned it off and returned it the next time I saw him. Since then I have learned a great deal about what constitutes witchcraft (occultism), and how Christians can inadvertently get into it thinking they are "ministering" by the Spirit. But I have never had an opportunity to talk with anyone who could help me make a rational assessment of why the Holy Spirit would have said that in regard to John's teaching. So, you see, I do have some questions. Perhaps a public forum would not be suitable for those questions but I hope to be able to discuss some of this with you and perhaps find some clarification. | ||
| Charla (65.40.127.12) |
Michael, In your first post you said, "The doctrine was conservative Christian but had an emphasis on the 5-fold ministries, gifts of the Spirit and an emphasis on creative and personal prophecy." Can you tell me what was taught as being "creative" prophecy? What did that mean within the context of what was being taught? | ||
| Anonymous (66.98.180.53) |
The thing that intrigues me, is if the Holy Spirit actually talked to you, and said it was witchcraft. Why on earth would you be asking about anything pertaining about the teaching? | ||
| MichaelStuhler (198.81.26.106) |
Hi Charla: Thanks for your post and email. I addressed your remarks in a private email so please read it. I cannot say whether what Joh taught was outright witchcraft or not. He was accused of it and of practicing the occult..yes. I head him personally speak about having studied witchcraft and, in fact, learning about it from a practicing witch because he said that "in order to fight it, you had to know how it worked and understand it."...and he did know alot about it. Of course, there are "rumors" on some other topics associated with the Living Word that he had an extensive occult library but I do not know that to be true nor can I deny it. I do know he practiced the "reading of auras" and saw the colors and had an understanding and interpretation for them. He believed that when he saw them he was "seeing in the spirit". However, in fairness, John clearly condemned occult practices in his messages. Yet, again on the otherhand, I sat in a service and personally heard him talk about conversations he had with his dead mother who, as he stated, "appeared to him". The Bible forbids that we communicate ot attempt to communicate with the dead and I remember that this was a REALLY BIG READ FLAG to me...when I heard him talk about it and I think it set the tone for me to begin thinking about leaving the movement. When John passed away, I remember sitting ins ervives where other brethren prayed to him..cryed out to him "on the other side" DEMANDING that he return. Later when he would not return...the doctrine changed that it was God's will for John to die because he really did not die but was "busy working on the otherside". This could simply be a sad way of many followers attempting to deal with his loss and justify what occurred...or it could be taken to suggest that those within the movement either intentionally or inadvertently were attempting to summon or communicate with the dead. Either way, for me...this was the thing that triggered my leaving the Walk. I had questions about questionable things before...but THIS was so blatently wrong anf against everything the scriptures said that I had no choice BUT to leave. One only has to look at the attempts by King Saul to summon a prophet from the dead by way of the witch of Endor to know how dangerous and against God's will this was...as it cost King Saul his life the very next day. Really scary stuff...and the Walk was very much very close to doing the same thing. | ||
| Charla (65.40.127.12) |
Anonymous (66.98.180.53) You asked, "Why on earth would you be asking about anything pertaining about the teaching?" Because today, over 30 years later, I see many Christians, not just a few, adopting doctrines and practices which will take them down the same path which could culminate in apostacy and occult involvement. I don't think God wants us to sit idly by when we see our brother or sister tottering on the brink of a precipice and about to fall. If we do not understand what leads to that fall we are not equipped to effectively help them. I believe I need to do more than mourn over the fallen. | ||
| Anonymous (64.65.136.84) |
I was interested in the aspect of JRS occult library as it was mentioned in Woodrow Nichol's book. I met Royal DeWayne Cronquist in the summer of 1983 in Minneapolis while he was hosting a "Feast of Tabernacles" celebration. After much research, I now know that the FOT as Cronquist promoted it is directly tied with George Warnock's book and gnostic concepts by the same title. After conversing with Warnock as well as reading Cronquist's books, including the jounal writings of George Hawtin, I can say with certainty that JRS and The Walk, along with the entire New Order of the Latter Rain, is a re-animation of theosophy and the kabbalist teachings of the Philadelphian Society. The supposed re-emergence of the "office of apostles and prophets" is directly tied to the very same rosicrucian ideas. Fortunately for me, I will no longer have to wonder about the validity of modern-day apostles and especially about the fortunetellers like New Order prophet Paul Cain!! NO HOMO! | ||
| Charla (65.40.127.12) |
Well, you must admit that gnosticism did not originate with the Philadelphian Society. I think the 5-fold gifts never ceased. They were just called by different names. The issue in it all is whether a person functioning in them is truly of God or not. Since the beginning of the Christian church there have been true apostles and false apostles, true prophets and false prophets.... etc. whether you call a person a missionary or an apostle doesn't change the nature of their function. In the Old Testament you can read God's assesment of the difference between true and false prophets. A false prophet speaks things originating from himself or from a lying (counterfeit) spirit, not from God. The question that has to be answered is how do Christians today become deceived into accepting the false either in their own functioning in ministry or in the ministry of others. | ||
| MichaelStuhler (198.81.26.106) |
Good previous post, Charla. Very objective and to the point. Very correct. | ||
| webbieswork (webbieswork) New member Username: webbieswork Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.220.172.139 |
Wow. I found the other threads first, but it sounds like this one has potential for some real healing. I hope you won't mind if I follow along and maybe even drop in a line from time to time? I'm a "blown out" "third generation" "jezebel" from the late 70's to 80's era. My mother, however, is still very, very involved, so I prefer not to be identified. Thanx, just for being here. | ||
| michaelstuhler (michaelstuhler) New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Hi "Webbieswork"! :-) Welcome. Where did you attend church when you were involved?} | ||
| webbieswork (webbieswork) New member Username: webbieswork Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.220.172.139 |
Thank you for the welcome. I'm shaking in my shoes and so filled with half buried memories and emotions I may not be coherent for awhile... But, I digress. It started in West Lafayette, IN, in about 2nd grade, which would have been 76 or so? and ended in Shiloh in the mid 80's. I don't think I've crossed paths with anyone here with the possible exception of Mr. Bobo, whose name sounds familiar. (Tho yours does too, just not AS familiar.) | ||
| michaelstuhler (michaelstuhler) New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.81.26.106 |
Well, webbieswork, I was no one really important in the Walk. I wanted to be more in the inner workings of things when I for there as a young, very zealous guy just out of the Army in 1975. I led some worship services at times...tried to kind of catapult myself into recognition I guess but never made it to the "biggies" which was probably a good thing for me anyway. Lots of people knew my name and who I was though during the time I was there, which was 1975 to about 1984. I was at John Stevens house a day or two after he passed away. I went there to pay my respects and hang with some of the brothers there for awhile and then left, knowing already that for all intent and purpose, the Walk was "over" now. I lingered a little while, went to some services and saw alot of people who could not accept the reality that John was dead. So they prayed to him to "Come Back"...and later prayed to him "as he worked on the other side". It was all pretty sad and pathetic and it left me with no spiritual home or diection at that time. I went through alot of heartache, wondering "why" and wondering about my future and whether God still loved me and even had a future for me...all of that stuff. In the end, I see that God waa there all along. Who I am though does not really matter. It does not matter if you knew me then or not. I do hope that you find the answers you are looking for here and at the same time that you view this board objectively as possible. | ||
| webbieswork (webbieswork) New member Username: webbieswork Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.220.177.145 |
Hi Michael. "I was no one really important in the Walk" Hmm...I think we were all important, but I understand your point. "It does not matter if you knew me then or not." True. But there are a few questions I have that can probably only be answered my someone who knows me, or at least my mom. Many answers I am finding in other ways, but it is also comforting to see "familiar faces" of those I held in high regard and those who have been at this longer than I have. Identification isn't really necessary in the long run though. The issues I slept on last night were these: First, I am realizing that I have some real control issues that will have to be addressed. I have come to realize that in my overzealous attempt to never be controlled again, I have gone overboard in controlling my own life and those around me. It even seeps into my business. It's a biggie, but I will be facing this head on over the next weeks and months. Second, I have realized that my mother may very well have "fallen" within the church. The set of circumstances sound very similar to some of the other stories I am reading here. The only way to confirm this, will be to talk with someone who knows her. And the only way to do that would be to publish her name unless someone casually mentions her in passing. While this may not seem to be a big issue, part of our fight in February was over how miserable she is in the "word" that is over her now. She has been separated from the body she loves and placed back at Shiloh, where she not only has to deal with her X husband on a constant basis, but is in an environment where she feels stifled, unproductive, unappreciated, unloved and isolated. This came shortly after she "submitted" a potential relationship and was denied. I guess she aimed too high. But I do know that both she and her gentleman friend are devastated by the denial. (They were told "not right now" tho not "never" and she was promptly sent back to Shiloh.) I am wondering if this may be the crack in the armour that I have been waiting for. Maybe a false hope, but I have to think about it. So that's where Webbie is today, LOL! Thanx for your support and for trying to keep up with all of these various posts. I feel better by the minute and can only thank you, those behind the scenes who have contacted me, and those who made this place possible. | ||
| sharise (sharise) New member Username: sharise Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.200.102.148 |
Hi Webbieswork, I read your story on some of the other Living Word discussion boards and I am very sorry to hear how your life was affected. And I thought my life had been screwed up! If your mother is who I think she is, she is indeed a wonderful lady. So is her husband (now ex). Although I left about 10 years ago, I was surprised and bummed out when my Mom (who's still in the church) told me a couple years ago that they had divorced, as they always seem like such a fun couple. Again if you are who I suspect, I am a couple years younger than you and had dinner with you once, along with a number of other young people from Shiloh, when you were making a rare visit with your Mom. I remember she was very excited about your visit. I don't know anything about what's currently happening with your Mom, unfortunately. Although I am not surprised, as my Mom has had her marriage and financial life totally controlled by the church as well. I'm really sorry to hear about your family story, but happy that you have a real life of your own and a new baby on the way! | ||
| webbieswork (webbieswork) New member Username: webbieswork Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.220.177.145 |
Hi Sharise! Great to hear from you! And I'm incredibly glad to know that my view of my mom isn't as tainted as the rest of my memories, LOL! That is, if there was a guitar shaped cake involved at the dinner you came to?!? OR was dinner, perhaps, in the cafeteria at Shiloh? Those are the only two I remember clearly, and that clarity isn't all that clear. ha! Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to drop me a note. I'm really sorry to hear that your mom is having some of the same experiences. Does it frustrate you the way it does me, or have you learned to cope in some way? | ||
| sharise (sharise) New member Username: sharise Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.200.102.148 |
I can't remember much about the dinner either, I don't remember if there was a cake. In the house where it was, the main front entry porch ran parallel to the dirt road. You walked in to the living room (with staircase/seperate room & hallway to the left), then straight in to the dining room, then either straight through a door to the back porch and utility/laundry, or left to the kitchen. Yes, my Mom's situation is most frustrating. At some point in the not too distant future, she will be living on social security income that's below poverty level, with only a few thousand dollars in savings. However, she is "covered" by her shepherd and designated relationship in not working now but being always available to do odd jobs for the church and its members that do work. | ||
| michaelstuhler (michaelstuhler) New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
"Yes, my Mom's situation is most frustrating. At some point in the not too distant future, she will be living on social security income that's below poverty level, with only a few thousand dollars in savings. However, she is "covered" by her shepherd and designated relationship in not working now " HMMM. I WAS IN THAT SITUATION ONCE MYSELF. I ALMOST SUCCUMBED TO IT UNTIL I STARTED RECEIVING LOVE NOTES AND WINKS & BLOWN KISSES FROM MY SHEPHERD AND DESIGNATED RELATIONSHIP. ONE NIGHT HE SHOWED UP AT THE ENTRANCE TO MY ROOM IN SHILOH WEARING A DRESS, MAKEUP AND DRINKING WATER FROM THIS EXTRAVAGENT GLASS. I QUICKLY GOT A JOB THE NEXT DAY. ;-) | ||
| ceebups (ceebups) New member Username: ceebups Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Webbieswork: I think I kinow your mom. Initials SA. She is a great lady...I'm from DC and I miss her. She loves children and is great with them. She was really great with my kids, and I hope she can be a good grandmother to yours. All the best. | ||
| michaelstuhler (michaelstuhler) New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.81.26.106 |
Ceecups: That is an interesting screen name. | ||
| ceebups (ceebups) New member Username: ceebups Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
It's ceebups, not ceecups. | ||
| mike_j (mike_j) New member Username: mike_j Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.8.230.53 |
do you know deebups? O.K.--time to end this thread. apologies, Mike | ||
| michaelstuhler (michaelstuhler) New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
LOL...Funny Mike. Ceebups...sorry about that...lol. I really did think you posted as ceecups for some reason and genuinely mistook your screen name. But I think ceecups would be a pretty cool screen name to use if I were a lady..lol. If I were a guy..naw..that would not be too cool at all. Ha! Ha! Take care. | ||
| mike_j (mike_j) New member Username: mike_j Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.8.230.53 |
FWIW, I've avoided deecups by a regimen of aggressive mountain biking, pilates & eating my last meal before 10 p.m. So far so good. Mike | ||
| walkie_generation_x (walkie_generation_x) New member Username: walkie_generation_x Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.207.221.151 |
Im interested to hear what the 30 somethings raised in the walk and now trying to live in the "WORLD" have to say. I was born and raised in the walk from the 70's to the mid 80s. My father was a "sheperd" for 15 years and our family life was changed forever when he left the walk after John died. The comment made earlier re: control issues is a HUGE one for me as well. The walk culture as well as my own family culture broke down personal boundrys to such an extent that it makes living outside the walk seem cold and scarry. I have yet to meet a walkie kid who's grown up to be healthy in that area. | ||
| zeek (zeek) New member Username: zeek Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.122.140.65 |
hello, I was wondering if anyone knows about teachings concerning an anointing I believe John Stevens had on his hands.The anointing feels like warm oil or sometimes sharp pains? Does anyone have this anointing? Thanx zeek | ||
| nonplused (nonplused) New member Username: nonplused Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.217.234.142 |
Yeah the annointing comes after some guy tells you that you're supposed to be feeling it. The feeling in your hands happens to everyone, it's just that the people in TLWF think it's a sign from God. | ||
| winterland (winterland) New member Username: winterland Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.206.216.202 |
In answer to your question about JRS's teaching on signs and gifts.....I actually have two tapes from the Living Word dated 9-5-70 titled Signs and Gifts tape one and tape two. You could maybe call the living word office and see if these are still available. John Stevens goes through a lot of the signs he felt in his body. | ||
| angietangerine (angietangerine) New member Username: angietangerine Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 130.18.149.108 |
hi, im looking for any info on The Move, the Body of Christ, Church at Sapa, Sapa Far North, Bowen's Mill, Sam Fife, John Hinson, Buddy Cobb, Preston Eby, and how this group is related to John Robert Stevens. anyone know? thanks | ||
| winterland (winterland) New member Username: winterland Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.206.216.202 |
Angietangering; I have a book that I got about 15 years ago called Latter Rain The Latter Rain movement of 1948 and the Mid-Twentieth Century Evangelical Awakening by Richard M. Riss copyright by Honeycomb Visual Productions Ltd. It was printed for Kingdom Flagships Foundation,P.O. Box 160, Etobicoke, Ontario, M9C4V2, Canada I know that John Robert Stevens and Preston Eby are mentioned in this history of the Latter Rain. I don't know if the other groups you mentioned are included in the book or not. The name Preston Eby did ring a bell though for me. It's been quite a few years since I've read the book though. It was written in 1987 Hope this is helpful. | ||
| winterland (winterland) New member Username: winterland Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.206.216.202 |
Angietangerine, I was reading the small print on the inside cover of this book and they say for information write to Honeycomb Visual Productions Ltd., 1295 Eglinton Ave. E., Mississauga, Ontario, L4W 3E6 Canada You could write them and see if the book is still available. This book, as you can tell from the title, traces the Latter Rain Movement and the different groups that embraced some of the teaching. Laying on of Hands, Baptism in the Holy Spirit, Healing, Deliverance, Ministry Gifts, Worship in the Spirit etc. I found it quite informative ...if you like history. | ||
| walnut (walnut) New member Username: walnut Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.169.248.145 |
Hi, Walkie Gen X: I was raised in CLW; my mom is still very involved. As an adult I can look back and say that religion was my parent’s drug of choice, as it served the same role in their lives as alcohol does in an alcoholic’s life. Our home life was a living hell, and true to the modeling, church became my escape, too. I attended church schools, including Shiloh, and later moved to LA where I worked at TLW. I eventually left in the mid-80’s when I was about 20 years old. I had a very difficult time adjusting to life "in the real world" for many years afterward, mainly because during the teen years I was pouring all of my energy and time into intercession and TLW, I was not learning basic survival skills---practical things like how to drive, how to balance a checking account, how to plan and cook nutritious meals for 1 person, but also core skills like how to set boundaries in relationships, how to think for myself, and what real love feels like. (For years I thought love was living for someone who doesn’t know I exist and responding to abuse with renewed efforts to please and win affection.) The wounds to my sense of femininity/sexuality went pretty deep, too. I was taught to hate, fear and be ashamed of being attractive. I would like to protect my privacy, so won’t be posting a ton of details about my story or playing “20 Questions,” but I would be glad to discuss how “recovery” worked for me---i.e., the process of finding myself (instead of trying to annihilate myself), learning to be authentic (rather than trying to live up to what I someone is telling me I should be), and creating a balanced life, healthy relationships, and healed spirituality. The first years were rough, but I am very happy now, married for many years to a wonderful man, enjoying close family relationships, a satisfying career and creative pursuits, involved in my community, and continuing to grow as a person. I came to this site because I would like to contact an old school friend and FactNet came up in a google search. Anyway, I hope its helpful to know that yes, you can heal and get on with life. Many people have painful childhoods, but once we are adults, it is up to us to seek out help, get therapy, educate ourselves, find support, etc. Good luck to you in your quest. You deserve to be happy! Walnut | ||
| winterland (winterland) New member Username: winterland Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.206.216.202 |
Dear Walnut: A wonderful, thoughtout letter. I can see you have made a lot of progress toward a whole life. I could so relate to how you said you wanted to find yourself instead of annihilate yourself. That was where a lot of my problems came when I was in the Walk. I tried to "crucify the flesh" but I had no idea what that meant. It ended up with a lot of self hate. But healing is a process. I am so thankful for the maturity that comes with time and the loving kindness of the Lord in my life. THAT has never failed in my life. And experiencing that love from the Lord has brought the most healing. I'd like to hear more about your healing experience if you would like to expand on it. If not, I really believe that this is a season that the Lord is bringing healing to many wounded sheep. " Seek the Lord while he can be found " I know this website has brought a lot of people together to pray for others that have been hurt. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| owl (owl) New member Username: owl Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.116.38.80 |
Hello, I have read all the postings on the other Living Word Fellowship thead and am in amazement. I posted to that other thread, but have copied my message here. But I will add my two cents....for what it's worth! I have been a member of TLWF since 1970; I was 16. I currently have not attended any services since December 2003 because I moved away to a state that has no churches. I cannot say that I left with the best circumstances since I did not submit what I was doing to my shepherds. So I guess you could say I am not under my covering at this point. But that's not really what is prompting me to write. I may know many of you, since I was involved in San Diego, Los Angeles, Shiloh -- I have been to Palmer Lake, Houston, Phoenix, Grants Pass, Fresno, Bakersfield, all the Southern Cal churches and facilities. I know many of the shepherds very well and know the publications aspect well too. The issues brought up are valid, yet prompted by personal experiences that have wounded and hurt. I will not say that I have always followed "the rules," but I have always believed that God has been in every step I have taken (not only because I always had my own relationship with God before being led to become part of this church, but John Robert Stevens confirmed it in a prophecy to me in 1980.) I have worked in publications, teaching in the schools, prophecy and intercession, being part of the summer activities in Shiloh -- and yes, human free will has been a hard part of being part of the Fellowship. But I must say that the Word was pure and still continues to flow that way. I am not currently getting any publications or tapes. My daughters have gone their own way, yet still have a love for God in their own right. I guess I'm just saying that I believe that everyone must find their own way. If they discover that TLWF is not where God is leading them, then take the riches they were given and move on. The church does not preach exclusivity, nor did the men of God I worked with ever have a man-worship of JRS nor Gary and Marilyn. Accusations have been made and substantiated by websites that have distorted or just copied and pasted from other sites without researching on their own. Research has been interviews with people who have left the church on bad terms. But they don't interview people who have just moved on and have no malice. If your own words were to be recorded and dissected with such an intense microscope, who would stand up to such scrutiny. God has never led me astray, and that time with that Fellowship only enriched my life. The personal things that happened -- whether in personal relationships, dealing with my shepherds and elders and pastors, just being people who live in a fishbowl -- is no different than what I experienced when I was Baptist, Presbyterian, Ba'Hai, Transcendental Meditation, or Catholic. Thrown stones, if you have no sin. But what I'm saying is if it's not your cup of tea, then be led by God to find your place and drop the bitterness! "One of the biggest lies that is perpetuated by The Walk is the lie that the bible does not make sense and that you can prove anything with the bible, simply because Satan used scriptures when tempting Christ. What the temptation of Christ proves is that a firm foundation and thorough understanding of scriptures, their historical significance in context, and the intent of God in giving them to us can be used to fight off attacks from the enemy. " Morpheus I NEVER, in all my time of transcriping services, editing Kingdom Proverbs, or in discussing with the ministries, heard that the Bible did not make sense. In fact, everything was related to the Scriptures and the messages and Words were always backed with the Scriptures, the Word of God. I guess all I really want to say is --- let it go and move on if that's what you want. But why tear apart and warn people to avoid this "cult" when in actuality, pretty much anything a group of people do that is not mainstreamed gets designated as a "cult". There are established denominations out there that are still put on the "cult" lists and TLWF is really low on the list because of the size of the congregation. I am sorry for those of you who had horrible experiences. I probably worked with, prayed with, or interceded next to many of you. My heart carries so many and give them up to God daily, because the Word of God is really the only salve for that. Anyway, thanks for letting me get that out. | ||
| watchman (watchman) New member Username: watchman Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.247.16.2 |
In the late 70s my grandmother attended a service one night when JRS was visiting the TLW church she regularly attended. She says she will never forget what happened...JRS as he spoke that night began speaking with some of the most crude language she had ever heard. He was sexually vulgar and she said it made her feel sick. She had to get up and go downstairs to where the church kitchen/co-op area was to get away from it. My grandmother has always been a God-fearing woman and uses the most gentle speech toward everyone, and she never makes up things like this. She told my mother and me about this story several times in the last 20 years. It really disturbed her and it was around that time that she and my grandfather left TLW. On another occasion she said JRS was beginning to speak to the congregation and he stopped and was silent for a moment. He stared out at the crowd with an austere expression and commanded everyone that they would turn off all recording devices, and that what he was about to say was NOT to be recorded (after all the years of tapings he had been part of at various services). He proceded to speak some shocking and blasphemous things, at which several got up and left, some did not ever return, and my grandparents knew it was time to get out of TLW. JRS was dead within the next few years. Does anyone else have an experience with JRS like this? | ||
| travis_bickle (travis_bickle) New member Username: travis_bickle Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.129.64.226 |
One of the most militant movements attempting to establish the Kingdom of God on earth is the Manifested Sons of God. This aberration came out of the Latter Rain Movement under the "apostleship" of John Robert Stevens, a William Branham disciple whose church in Redondo Beach, California, operated for a number of years as the headquarters for the movement. The Manifested Sons of God teachings are perhaps the most definitive among Kingdom Now doctrines. They have all the elements of classical dominion theory: immortalization, restoration of the offices of apostles and prophets, absolute authoritarianism, attainment of godhood - you name it, the Manifested Sons of God have it. The Manifested Sons of God Movement suffered massive dissipation as the result of many scandals that attended the extreme cult status to which it had attained. Nevertheless, its devotees, fervent in their beliefs, covertly continue to spread its doctrines to other churches. Al Dager, An Examination of Kingdom-, Dominion-, and Latter Rain Theology That this radical version of Latter Rain teachings was capable of going too far as into outright cultism is illustrated by the story of John Robert Stevens and his network of churches called, ''The Walk''. Stevens, a Pentecostal pastor who was in his early days ''mighty in the Scriptures'', nonetheless had some serious traits that did him in. One was a predilection to want to hear anything ''new'', no matter what, nor from whom. He seemed to be always looking for ''new revelation''. Another was his fiercely independent spirit. Then, by his own admission, Stevens in 1950 disobeyed the Lord's warning for him not to get involved with the Latter Rain. Instead he allowed Winston Nunes to lay hands on him, changing his life forever but in the wrong direction. Stevens developed his network of some 94 churches thereafter by teaching his people that he was not just an Apostle, but the Apostle of the Kingdom who would break through into the ultimate revelation ''in the heavenlies'', leading his flock into it with him. Basing his views on such a subjective foundation, it is not surprising to find that he eventually got into the occultic practices of spiritualism, reading auras, astral projection, psychic warfare, hypnosis and what amounted to ''white witchcraft'' (but witchcraft all the same). Stevens and The Walk are to this day universally considered among researchers to be a cult. Don Clasen, The Destroyed Foundations - The Word Stevens considered himself "God's Chief Intercessor," and himself to be an apostle. and his churches were known for their heavy-handed authoritarianism (See Ronald Enroth's article, Spiritual Abuse: The Power Abusers). This error is continued today: Prior to his death, he passed the mantle of his apostolic fathering ministry oversight to his wife, Marilyn. To Gary Hargrave, who had been the primary overseer of the Southern California churches and the church-wide communication center in the years preceding Stevens' death, John imparted the gift and responsibility for continuing to speak the Living Word. Gary and Marilyn were since married and have functioned together as the apostolic fathering ministries over the fellowship, continuing the ministry begun by John Stevens. | ||
| travis_bickle (travis_bickle) New member Username: travis_bickle Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.129.64.226 |
The Walk The Walk was organized by John Robert Stevens in 1951. He had been defrocked by the Foursquare Gospel Churches, had joined the Assemblies of God, and was defrocked again, this time for his involvement in the Latter Rain teachings (Nichols). As Stevens got further into the Latter Rain, he developed his own extensions of it. He came to teach that all the regular denominations were of the Old Order, were Babylonish, and worldly, and largely apostate. God was using The Walk to establish a New Order, and eventually they would "birth" the Manifested Sons, of whom Stevens would be the first. He claimed to be an Apostle and Prophet, and gave out endless taped revelations, many of them transcribed into dozens of booklets. Documentation on this Latter Rain variant is therefore easily obtainable, and has been available to interested researchers for thirty years. Stevens' most serious (and aberrantly fruitful) blunder was his decision that the spiritual practices and forces of Occultism are really "neutral" and that therefore the methods of the occult should also be used by Christians to help them achieve a similar or even better "spirituality." In fact, he said that Satan originally stole these methods from the righteous. Believers should therefore study the occult and appropriate their techniques, reclaiming their use for God. JRS taught that God will bless this syncretism, and the Latter Rain fire will fall at last, birthing the perfected Church. The Walk will be (literally) glorified into the Manifested Sons, thereby becoming themselves the Parousia (the Second Coming) of Christ, itself the Manchild Company (Nichols' SCP report). Stevens even said that communication with Angels and deceased believers had already become possible. Paul Cain and Bob Jones have been talking with Angels regularly for decades, of course. Stevens claimed communication himself with the "great cloud of witnesses." | ||
| themissinglink (themissinglink) New member Username: themissinglink Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 70.95.26.198 |
"maybe you will find out that the plan B was really Plan A all along. I wish you the best and we can talk more on this board. Let me tell you some of the wonderful things God has done and how real He is and can be...that life in Christ is well....outside of the Walk. JRS would have kicked down the Walk as it is today, I think. " aloha Michael, all you have shared is indeed an accurate take, and I am also a witness, and glad to here a genuine one. He was set to kick down the walk upon his last return from Hawaii, and would have, but greed held in place what needed to be purged by fire. The fire will overtake us all by the grace of God, and consume that which must be consumed, leaving a Kingdom of peace, joy and righteousness to the broken who tremble at His Word. He who has begun a good work, is MORE than capable of bringing it to His intended conclusion in spite of all of us. John prophesied on many occassions that more false prophets would come out of the Walk than any other movement EVER, because of the extent of Truth granted to us and for lack of genuine repentence and embracing of the cross in holding too much Truth in unrighteousness....(I paraphrase heavily....and do NOT wish to be one of the multitude he referred to in saying often, "I am the most misquoted man in the world." John is my father, and I am grateful to the manifest and overwhelming grace of God that provided him. He was the only conduit in his hour, that could have liberated me and those I brought to him from the chains of occultism and far worse. We are his seal. He often said in the face of the persecution accusing occult affiliation, that we were the ONLY ones that knew how to deal and deliver from that realm. this is indeed the Truth. Anyone who thinks he was in the occult, certainly has no genuine experience in it, nor the revelation of what and who he was. he also implored all to GET a REVELATION!!! AND more Love to handle the revelation we were happy to just take from him without doing the legwork of seeking God's face. We are all on hold to the extent the homework has yet to be done. May we find grace and hunger to seek the Truth in the inward parts unto deliverance from each of our personal accountability. And may mercy triumph over judgment. Marguerite (GeGe) Beavers | ||
| carey (carey) New member Username: carey Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.179.9.140 |
It has been very enlightening reading some of these posts. I am amazed at the amount of great things said about this church. I was born into this church and my grandfather was a very prominent apostle. My grandmother and other family members are still a part of it. It sickens me to hear the defense of some these "brainwashed" members about their beloved churches. I won't say that this ccchurcch destroyed me because I am a much stronger person than that. However, the damage they have helped to do will always be remembered by me and my family. Do you know who I am? | ||
| carey (carey) New member Username: carey Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.179.9.140 |
Marilyn, do you have a son and a daughter? | ||
| duggandavid (duggandavid) New member Username: duggandavid Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 130.13.83.144 |
I am greatful having found this conversation thread. I was a member of a branch of this church that began in Big Spring, Texas and later migrated to Lubbock, TX. in the mid to late 70's. I'm grateful to find that there are those who still believe the intentions of John Robert Stevens was to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, with all his mind, spirit, and soul. My name is David Duggan and for the past several years I have felt the spirits of JRS and Royal D. Cronquist during meditations and ponderings with the Holy Ghost. I've felt joy and approval from JRS when changes in my own life that occured have brought me closer to Jesus Christ. I have also felt a spirit of forgiveness and love from RD Cronquist, which tells me things are much better in heaven than they were while he was on earth. Only in more recent years have I felt the presence of RDC perhapes due to his death which seems to have been in "2003?". I too, like Michael Stuhler in a previous thread, suffered from a panic-anxiety disorder that was first experienced and seemed to be associated with the church in the late 70's. After having left the church due to the panic attacks, I for 25 years was unable to set foot into any church, with the exception of the last 7 years that I've been once again active in another sect. I never lost faith, just couldn't share my cross with others at that time. My "walk with God" began in Big Spring back in he early 70's while I was in High School. Some of the names and people I can remember are Sid and Anita F.(edited for privacy), Robert B., Ed L., Bill H., Bill O., Melvin and Gail G., Robert and Beth M., Steve S., and Richard M. who was the pastor. All of these people and others whom I can't remember their names, to this day have remained in my hopes and prayers. (Message edited by duggandavid on February 12, 2006) | ||
| duggandavid (duggandavid) New member Username: duggandavid Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 130.13.83.144 |
It was the five fold ministry (Prophets, Apostles, Elders, Teachers, and Deacons) along with the apparent visits by Jesus Christ himself to JRS and RDC that opened my eyes and my heart to desire a walk with God. The teachings I was taught at the age of 16 yrs were in great defiance to my parents "safe" Methodist religion that only acknowleged the great Apostasy that had rid the earth of the authorized priesthood of Jesus Christ. I knew in my heart that there had to be a restoration of that ministry that could have only been brought back to the earth by the initial laying on of hands and impartation of Jesus Christ himself, prior to the harvest thats about to take place in these latter times. I remember well one evening when many of the young adults and a few teenagers, such as myself, were gathered in a dark foyer outside the pastors office. He was performing an exorcism on a girl a few years older than me, at her own request, to purge her of the demonic presence of a sexual lust she felt was holding her back from a "walk with God". There was screeming and yelling from both parties along with furniture crashing against the walls. I cryed as I burried my head between my knees for protection and prayed that I wasn't next. Now as I ponder on some of those practices and proceedings of those days, I wonder as to the need and authority of practicing such an agressive removal of sin. | ||
| duggandavid (duggandavid) New member Username: duggandavid Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 130.13.83.144 |
JRS was good about dissecting the cancerous nature of sin from the sinner, such as plucking the eye out, or cutting off the hand that causes you to sin, as the bible describes without the physical dismemberment, but I've found that instead of focusing on our physical bodies and the desires of the natural man, as being strickly sinful and hideous before God, our Heavenly Father, rather that we should aim at keeping our bodies intact and fill ourselves with the desire to live like Jesus Christ. A challenge to want to live a life free of the sins that corrupt and keep us from loving our neighbor. A challenge to become more giving in charity and care for those caught-up in worldly desires such as money, drugs, pornograpy, and deceitfulness, with a plan of salvation and redemption from these traps that fits the needs of all mankind. To find and obtain through worthiness the priesthood that Jesus Christ gave to us for blessings and healings, and make changes in our lifestyles that show love, compassion, and charity to all. I live to see the day that we all come together from our various definitions and differences of christianity, that attempt to keep us divided, and learn these principles that make the harvest sweet to our Lord Jesus. If you beat me into submission, a dormant hatred may eventually surface, but if you love me and show me a plan of salvation and redemption, a broken and contrite spirit will be birthed. Then a strong testimony of the truth of Jesus Christ will come forth. It's ironic that JRS died from a cancer that couldn't be removed from his body as he had only a decade or so earlier had marveled at the scientific community's discovery of the cancer cell. Thanks for keeping the flame lit.. David.. dwduggan@hotmail.com (Message edited by duggandavid on February 17, 2006) (Message edited by duggandavid on February 17, 2006) | ||
| longgone (longgone) New member Username: longgone Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 194.125.180.185 |
Anyone out there familiar with the church in Claremont New Hampshire? AngieTangerine: the ministers you listed are largely in "the move" , some of their connection to "the walk" is Bill Grier and Whitestone Farms. Does anyone one know the Gaudreaus? I'm looking for a school friend who, last I heard was living at Shiloh. Thanks Siobhan PS username: longgone refers to leaving the walk in 1979/80 | ||
| eutamias (eutamias) New member Username: eutamias Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.161.178.32 |
Wow. This is a pretty interesting place. It stirs up some old feelings from long ago. I probably know many of the respondents on this page, and it saddens me that there is so much collateral damage out there. I joined the San Diego church in '75 and "blew out" in '78 after the great RD airplane fiasco, at which time many of my close friends were hurt deeply (including the pilot, with whom I'm still in touch). I did not know JRS personally, but he had ministered to me numerous times. I always felt compassion from him and for him, and saw many who tended to elevate him to that cult status of which has been spoken, and that is a dangerous and precarious place to be. I don't ever believe that's what he wanted. I left without guilt, and none of my friends who stayed ever made me feel that way, and in the words of the Ancient Mariner, “An older and a wiser man I woke the 'morrow morn'.” I will always be grateful to JRS and RD, and especially David C. (the assistant pastor), for helping me to awaken spiritually. RD was a vivid and living example of how this is NOT supposed to look, which I now know was an important lesson for this young man. I am still delighted to visit one of the churches when I'm in that town, and no one presses me to re-join, but love me and understand that that's the way it is. I've moved on. A “Misery Street” refugee. Coniah Chapel was only the beginning of my own road to Damascus. But what a battleground! Or should I say, Battle Royal (pun intended). Thank you all for speaking from your hearts here. I hope to write more later. | ||
| longgone New member Username: longgone Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 194.125.182.147 |
Hey where is everyone? Maybe I"m on the wrong thread? But, I'd like to hear if anyone knew Bill Grier and the church in Claremont NH? thanks | ||
| been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me New member Username: been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 12.226.56.125 |
MichaelStuhler: "Some of the accusations about JRS are just wrong. I knew him. He was NOT a womanizer and stood up against that type of behavior. But when he and Martha had their split...people took sides and accusations came out. Yet before then, those same people who accused him later were staunch supporters. So consider the source. I cannot judge the situation with he and Marilyn because I do not know." Well I can tell you from FIRST HAND knowledge that most of the accusations were dead on accurate. I do not wish to identify myself for privacy reason, and you may not choose to believe me because of that...your priviledge. But I was not only on the "inside", I was WAY inside...I was in JRS's family. Believe me, if anything, the accusations were mild. | ||
| bill_mack Intermediate Member Username: bill_mack Post Number: 260 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.95.34.234 |
been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me, Do you still have any WALK literature? --Bill | ||
| been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me New member Username: been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 12.226.56.125 |
Do you still have any WALK literature? --Bill Bill, No I don't have any left...good news bad news. It might be interesting to go back and look at it now, but I couldn't stand having it around. FLUSH...lol Regards | ||
| been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me New member Username: been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 12.226.56.125 |
Hey where is everyone? Maybe I"m on the wrong thread? But, I'd like to hear if anyone knew Bill Grier and the church in Claremont NH? thanks Hi: I knew Bill and have been to the Claremont church. I haven't seen or heard from him in about 25 years though. (Message edited by Been there...and it almost killed me. on April 09, 2006) | ||
| louann New member Username: louann Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.5 |
I remember Bill Grier, though I did not really know him. He disappeared after JRS married Marilyn, but not before he sent out a letter with his objections to that match. When I left (or, actually, decided not to return after a long visit home) the Episcopal priest who helped me straighten out theologically made me get rid of the stuff. I found one the other day, and read it. Such doublespeak! Actually, sad to say, not at all unlike the manifesto of Vernon Howells (aka David Koresh) that was read on local (Waco) radio during that awful Branch Davidian fiasco. Poor JRS. What a disaster it was for so many, including himself! | ||
| boymomx5 New member Username: boymomx5 Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 12.215.186.101 |
Hey been_there: I knew the Grier's...as a matter of fact somewhere on these boards I ran into Elaine (one of Bill Grier's daughters) and she told me that they are in the NW US and they have a "community" up there. It was probably about two years ago on here. I kept her email address for awhile, but I can't find it now. I'm one of the people on here who isn't afraid to say who I am...I don't know if I know you, but you may know my parents, Ben and Rosemary Mason. We were in the body in San Diego (where my Mom met my step-dad and married), then we lived at the "Ranch" out in the NV desert...our family left the Walk for awhile and then went back when we moved to Wash., D.C. Dan Statton was sheparding the church there at the time...I can only say that I have very fond memories of my time in the body and that I love my "family" even though I don't go to church with them anymore or see too many of them. I do not remember having any bad experiences or suffering any hardships at the hands of anyone in any of the churches! Although there are people (who are now in charge, but who I won't name) that I just didn't care for (I was a teenager during most of the time I spent in the body...but I distinctly remember having an uneasy feeling about one person in particular). Anyway, thank God that He forgives us for our human nature!! I like this site because it just takes me down memory lane...remembering Bro. Cronquist (who I still love dearly...he was truly an intense, fervent man of God and worship at Coniah was amazing), Shiloh in its early days, the brothers and sisters that I forged bonds with ... bonds that are still there today. Maybe because of my age, I didn't really understand the "politics" of the Walk, I just know that I loved and felt loved by everyone I ever met in the church. If anyone knows the whereabouts of my friends - Joy Hodges, Jeannie Fatzinger, anyone in the Carter family (San Diego)...please let me know (or let them know I can be found here once in awhile). Thanks!  | ||
| donald New member Username: donald Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 69.139.153.184 |
I have some family members and friends that are thinking about going to church at Shiloh near Iowa City Iowa. Should I be concerned? | ||
| been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me New member Username: been_thereand_it_almost_killed_me Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 12.226.56.125 |
I have some family members and friends that are thinking about going to church at Shiloh near Iowa City Iowa. Should I be concerned? Donald: I have not been associated with the group for over 25 years now, so I cannot say what they are like now. However, unless they have done a radical 180 degree turn, I would NOT want anybody I cared for going there. | ||
| cedarrapidsletter New member Username: cedarrapidsletter Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 69.233.253.173 |
I remember Bill Grier from the Fallbrook church and C of HHP days. I know of him only by rumor since he moved to NH. | ||
| breathe New member Username: breathe Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 67.183.168.210 |
Fastinating... I knew Bill Grier and entered the walk in 1975/76 through a family member of his. Spent a lot of time in Shiloh, Hawaii and LA -- all through the church. It is interesting reading all of this and not sure why I'm writing. I was certainly not a family member of John or Marilyn, but lived in the Blix Apts for a few years. I left in 1984 -- pretty much on my own accord -- the same way I decided to attend services in the first place. I was a tape editor and spent time working in a couple of "kingdom businesses." Like any church there are good folks and bad folks... there is corruption and kindness. I've seen worse elsewhere and better. | ||
| breathe New member Username: breathe Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 67.183.168.210 |
Addendum to my first post: I will say that the level of 'guidance' and/or control is a concern in retrospect. The church does not promote individuality and/or independence/independent thinking. John Stevens used to say that if the 'movement' ever turned into a religion, he'd be the first to tear it down. It is my opinion, that in some way he did that when he died. Perhaps, without current knowledge of what is going on, it's presumptious to say this, but I think any group that sees themselves as 'the answer' and having clearer insight and knowledge than others is in danger of fooling themselves and likewise those that follow them. My nine year experience was a lesson of imbalance. I have to also say that I have fond memories of many of the people I came to know as close as family members. It was a long road after I left to get clear about who I was. Definitely took time to heal. It's a shame... but life offers difficulty in a thousand ways, places, and circumstances... I blame no one, and am very I am where I am today. | ||
| now_what Member Username: now_what Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.65.209.65 |
The disallusionment we have all gone through, going through was nescessary. It is the 40 years on the backside of the desert like Moses. Of watching Egypt grow in power and the oppresion grow in intensity and you can do NOTHING! It is finally giving up and retreating, yet maintaining some inner hunger for God all the while. Until that day when God has seen you are empty of self, of ambition, of any desire to move in power, to lead revolutions, to pick a leader to go up and fight. Then you finally come and take off your shoes (human mechanism of conveyance)and listen to God and His plan unfolds. He takes the stammering mouth and inserts HIS words, that are not words of men, but words of spirit that are above all power, and powers....they are words of authority. So Moses...an individual man moves into the greatest Empire on earth and by the authority upon him devastates that Empire, with no army, no troops, no revolution. Just the authority of God, and each plague is aimed at the ruling principalities over Egypt...the spiritual infrastructure was judged, people go free, and ultimately at the Red Sea the military...physical power of Egypt is destroyed...a complete judgement in all realms. Either that is the pattern for us now, or the world collapses into the dark ages again. "Rejoice ye apostles and prophets for God has judged YOUR judgement upon her." JRS had this right, don't care what the critics of the manfest sons of God theology say about this aspect. The true prophetic word in a human channel is not prayer, not asking God to do something...you become the channel through which God flows HIS authority and power into the earth. Otherwise there would be no need to purify the channel if it was just you asking God to move in His sovereingty...like begging a reluctant King to address grievances. It was God that heard the cries of his people...Moses had forgotten. So he heard those cries and He could have just answered them directly...like prayer. But instead he carefully dealt with a man and then used him to channel his answer into the earth. An answer that was far greater, more universal than anyone could have dreamed. And to this day Egypt has never arisen to be more than a third rate power. Keep an eye our for something unusual...a burning bush, or something... Paul T | ||
| michaelstuhler Junior Member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hi everyone. I started this thread in 2004 and have not been back on factnet for quite some time due to other things going on. However, I wanted to thank the many of you that have apparently read this and emailed me for the nice letters. Through them, I have obtained some very valuable, firsthand knowledge from some insiders very close to John Stevens and the credibility of some of those providing the information has been a real help to me. You know who you are...so thank you. Regarding the Greers, I hear from Elaine often. To "Been-There-And-It-Almost Killed Me"...thanks for your response to my post. I have received emails from some that express the same information as you do and some who do not. I certainly have no reason to doubt what you wrote to me and wish you the best. Please feel free to email me, if you would like to, as we may know one another and I would be interested to know more about your experiences within John's family and the Walk as a whole. I do not have the apparent firsthand knowledge that you claim to have and if what you say is correct, then I am sorry you had to experience some of the things you did and only wish you the very best at this point in your life. One thing we can probably both agree on is that it was a good thing that we exited The Living Word when we did. Some of the letters I have received from others...people who I actually know and therefore know their credibility....have really made me very sad for them and, if anything, have made me a much more humble and thankful Christian at this stage of my life. For those interested parties that are reading this and have dropped into this site for the same reasons as many of us have visited Factnet, perhaps to gain understanding of what happened and obtain a sense of closure, I would like to encourage you to KNOW YOUR BIBLE. Please read the Word of God and do not stray from it. One thing all of this that I experienced and went through in the Walk and many of your emails have impressed upon me is the necessity of really knowing and understanding the written Word of God and then not deviating from it. Thank you Lord Jesus for your Word. It supercedes all other "words" and I have learned that it is "enough" for me and able to sustain me. May God bless all of you. Thank you FACNET for providing this site. ....Michael (Mischa) Stuhler-Safdie' | ||
| hoodornament New member Username: hoodornament Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 71.121.32.180 |
My two cents worth: I knew RD 1972-1974. My wife's family knew him even before he "joined up" with Stevens. (Prior to that he was associated with an "apostle" in TX named Bill Smith). Part of the mystery here is that God-anointed ministry comes through imperfect and sometimes deeply flawed vessels. RD is certainly not the first such vessel (consider Sampson). Even though I have not been part of a Walk church since 1974, I am deeply grateful for RD and the things God showed me under his ministry. ########### Remember, no matter who you are, you can always find somebody to say something bad about you on the internet!  | ||
| anothertraveler New member Username: anothertraveler Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 72.133.53.3 |
"Remember, no matter who you are, you can always find somebody to say something bad about you on the internet!" This is one of the most accurate statements I have ever read! | ||
| winterland Intermediate Member Username: winterland Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 209.89.232.138 |
I was just reading the Kalona Iowa newspaper and I saw that Shiloh has announced that they are opening an online University. Just "google" University at Shiloh and you will find the story released today on the Kalona News homepage. | ||
| charis New member Username: charis Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 198.185.64.201 |
Many months ago I was at this web site and read some of the postings. At the time I even registered so that I could respond to some of the postings that I read. Time has past and today I was back here reading. Perhaps now I am ready to say something about Claremont, Bill Grier and the events surrounding and leading up to the “closing” of the church there – though it did stay around as a “home church” group under the Gaudreaus’s. My name was Chris Herrick (later Hoover) and now Dupere. I can remember most everyone from Claremont so clearly – Erin Eads (Spangelo) , Helen Porter, Siobhan, Ben & Rosemary Mason, Grier’s, Armstrongs, etc…….I can even now still see and smell the church. I moved to Claremont August of 1975 after being a part of the home church down in Milford. When I arrived I lived in the “sister’s house” on Central in Claremont. For a year I lived with Ed & Nancy Corley – he was one of the 5 pastors (shepherds) over the church along with Grier, Armstrong, McCain and Corbet. I was a set in deaconess in the church and knew things perhaps I should not have. In June of 1977 I traveled to the church in DC under Dan Statton. Technically I was “visiting” while I decided whether to marry another deacon – Ted Keller. When I returned in Sept it was to get approval to return to DC and was allowed to as being “on loan”. There were things happening within the leadership that was already pulling away from JRS that I knew about. It was several months later during a wedding in DC of Jeannette Reddington to Harold Grigg (an elder from Claremont) that many of the leadership came down for. They at that time demanded that I pack and return to NH with them after the wedding. I went to Dan Statton and the elders there and a call was placed to JRS in Shiloh and …to make a long story short the Claremont leadership was denied the authority over me and I was permanently placed at the DC church. | ||
| charis New member Username: charis Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 198.185.64.201 |
A matter of weeks later JRS made a visit to DC and through conversation with him it was discovered about what was happening in Claremont and a visit was made by JRS and other leadership to Claremont. A short time later a major convocation took place in DC where the leadership of Claremont was required to come. Basically, it was then that Claremont church was in so many words – ex-communicated or related to CLW. MANY, many, many people were hurt by this whole course of events. I was at the convocation in DC and people from Claremont that meant the world to me became hostile and hateful towards me. Much of the blame of what had happened to them was placed on me at the time. It was many years later after I returned to NH after leaving the church, my marriage, remarried to someone else and had 2 children that I made a visit to Ed & Nancy Corley (who are now divorced but at the time were still married) that things were healed between us. Well, this is all water under the bridge and long gone by. I was in the CLW for 9 years. I married a man in DC who was from the church in PA which had split up – some moving to NH and some to DC. I was still in the church when JRS died and for about a year later. Most everything that once “drew” me to the church changed drastically over the year leading up to JRS’s death and the year following. Nothing was the same. I was so sensitive to the undercurrents and began drawing back and started questioning. In the end, when I went to the elders about the estrangement I felt from the church I was told that I had to lay everything down – the words over my life, my ministry, even my own walk with God and put everything into bringing my husband forth in his ministry. This was so clearly wrong and I walked away from the church, my marriage, everything. It was nearly 15 years before I would have anything to do with God again. Wrongly, I blamed God for what happened. But it was not Him. All the things that drew me to a walk with God and - THAT is what is important – our walk and relationship with Him. It is so hard to believe that now – I am almost 50 years old – how much emotion (good and bad) comes up when I think about the years in Claremont and DC – yet no matter how much pain and grief I have been through – It has made me who I am, my faith stronger and my reliance on Him more steadfast. Yes, I miss the people and still grieve over the harm that was caused to people who genuinely have faith in God. In my heart, I have great love and respect for JRS too and those who were in leadership over me – especially Dan Statton. All I know – something drastically went wrong and changed when JRS was dying and died. The original foundations he laid were sound but corruption of those truths (I have MANY of the LW publications) crept in. This happens – when people do not stand guard and test the words of men who say they are the voice of God. | ||
| quickspirit New member Username: quickspirit Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 70.224.231.97 |
To boymomx5: if you still check this board I believe Jeannie Fatzinger married Dean David from Grace Chapel, SG. I know it's been over a year since you posted but I just found fact net last month. There's a lot to read on it now re TLW. Hope this helps. | ||
| quickspirit New member Username: quickspirit Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 70.224.231.97 |
MS: Thanks for starting this board with a tribute to John, I used to sit at his feet and learn to have a walk with the Lord Jesus. I can only be grateful for the perfect gift he gave me. I came to know the Lord through him. Before that I was raised Catholic, and all the bible stories were like fairy tales to me. I longed for it to be real. I was not able to find that reality in the Catholic Church. I was led to find the teaching of John. I grew up in Michigan, and I still remember the drive to move to California to find something. I didn't know what then. But I know now it was to find JRS and the reality of God through his teaching. It changed my life. God is still moving in the earth. I have been to other christian groups and have seen prophetic word and personal ministry flow from other vessels after John died. The Word never comes back void. It still goes on to fulfillment. Other stones are being raised up to speak the truth in the earth. Check out Ruckins McKinley and his book The Sound of This Generation www.demnstrate.com/ruckins/default.htm. Also check out The Godchasers by Tommy Tenney(sp?). Both are a blessing and encouragement to anyone looking for the moving of The Lord in the earth today. Hungry hearts will not be denied. We will have more of Him in our lives. Bless you all. | ||
| now_what New member Username: now_what Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.133.116.245 |
Here are some links for further research of people or movements that had a similar message or ministry to JRS, this was gathered by someone that was in the Walk for many years and she wanted to share them: http://www.godfire.net/eby/ http://www.georgewarnock.com/ Also recommend writings of: Art Katz Ray Prinzing A.W. Tozer Bill Britton Andrew Murray Chip Brogden David Johnson Ray Prinzing T. Austin Sparks Mme. Jeanne Guyon Wayne Jacobsen George Hawtin Elwin Roach A.P. Adams Stacy Wood John Gavazzoni | ||
| jir New member Username: jir Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.112.36.229 |
I have 2 of Royal Cronquist's books/study guides- "Made Like Unto The Son of God" and "Feast of Tabernacles". If anyone would like to have them e-mailed to you in PDF format, drop me a line at: jir@centurytel.net | ||
| quickspirit New member Username: quickspirit Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.224.231.97 |
I'm glad that this has become a place to post encouragement and resources to help people find the Lord moving elsewhere than TLW. What I realized was that John refused to go in without the rest of us going in as well. He was all or nothing when it came to breakthroughs in God. G&M were just the opposite, they talked about things they were moving in that when I thought about it later I realized that they were bragging and teasing us as if they had more and were way ahead of the rest of us. That was not John's spirit or heart. He had a real love for the Lord's sheep. He was always humbling himself before the Lord and before the body. I never expected him to be perfect, he was just a man. But how perfectly the Lord moved through him. He taught that we had to give all to the Lord and hold nothing back. I remember G&M saying there were things they just wouldn't be. You cannot take a stand like that and continue to move in the Lord's will, let alone His perfect will. Arrogance comes in, followed by power and position, and the poor sheep who are earnest in their submission are led astray because their eyes have been dulled and their hearts tricked into following false leaders who do not repent. Who don't even think they have anything to repent of. Now that is true arrogance. That is the one percent poison that turns the ninety-nine percent pure wheat into rat poison. I would never give my spirit to G&M. We were meant to be set free, not come under bondage to man. I wasn't at the last service John was in but a good friend was and I was told how he was almost frantic in laying hands on everyone there and setting them free. This friend also kept their freedom and now has an incredible day to day relationship with the Lord. I knew John and understood what he taught, I don't remember him ever contradicting anything he brought previously. But I have heard things that were just wrong after he was gone. I had a healing for my father when he was dying. He refused to take it because the rest of the family was so dependent on him. If he remained they would not grow and he loved them too much to let that happen. I believe that is why JRS was taken. Too many wanted to remain babes and sucked the life right out of him. Those who grew up in TLW were too young to remember John very well. His focus was that the ground was all level at the foot of the cross. He did not lord it over people. He had a real hunger for the Lord. I knew him. For someone who was just a man, with the faults and weaknesses of a man, he had more of God in his life than anyone I had ever known before. To be as positive an influence as he was to so many people had to be Jesus Christ moving through him. I also believe that there is a healing moving now through the earth. Healing the broken hearted, the beaten down, and drawing back unto Himself all the lost sheep and lambs for nothing is impossible for Him. No Thing is impossible for Him to accomplish. Bless you all with this. | ||
| liturgist New member Username: liturgist Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 76.102.173.54 |
It's interesting revisiting all of this and seeing now that more folks have written about it than was available in the past. Some years back in the mid 1990s, I wrote several papers on cultic behaviors for my sociology classes at university because of my experiences growing up affected by the CoLW. Such behaviors aren't limited to what we would consider to be classic cults, such as CoLW, but dynamics can be found in mainline Protestant traditions and the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions as well--wherever authority is not accountable and spiritual experiences are not subject to testing by others. That alone is enough as far as I'm concerned, but the theology of CoLW takes it all beyond the pale. Fortunately for us, my parents left CoLW in 1982 after ten years of involvment and had insisted that we go to public schools against the *word* of others, but didn't completely wean themselves or our household of the theology, spiritual approach until after I'd already left home. By high school, I knew that much of this was full of baloney, and took a more skeptical view of faith while still caring about Christ. It took a serious family crisis for my parents to see that all of this "name it and claim it" bit so at the heart of CoLW does not protect us from life. Many of the teachings of "John", or as my parents would often say, "John says...", a phrase I hope never to hear again in my lifetime and a phrase that seemed to justify whatever wind blew John's way that day (as an adult I read through much of CoLW published works we still had and my how doctrine changed regularly and blew all over the place) or justified whatever poor behavior on his behalf or elders (my father was a pastor for a bit before recognize something amiss), were in direct contradiction to basic historic Christianity, and I don't simply mean a Bible-says or sola Scriptura approach which is the other extreme of the living steam-of-consciousness word of John as if either the bible itself of John are the Logos--rather Jesus Christ (in any case, both are American abbherations of Christianity as far as I can tell), but an over all way of being as Christian found over time that recognizes development but always in congruence with the heart of the Scriptures, whom Luther named as Christ whom Scripture cradles. Manipulation of energies and spirits and cursing others smothered over in God language is still witchcraft as far as I can tell. Shocking really to curse others...we are commanded to bless and not curse. To curse is to usurp God's place. I remember in reading John's words as an adult, and those of other "apostles" and becoming so physically dizzy from the experience, I threw it all away. I don't think this was by accident. Something was wrong in these teachings. One of the most startling things I remember from growing up was the amount of control elders had in the lives of "sheep"--that phrase is quite telling, I might add. My parent's marriage was arranged by their pastor--who ran off with his girlfriend and spent the flocks' money on horses, for example, because the pastor got a *word*. Arranged. Something I didn't know until I found out through other family as an adult. Now they're getting divorced. Some word. My parents were fundamentally incompatible on so many levels. The CoLW justified a rather under-the-thumb approach for women as well, and it's no wonder my mother wants nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever. | ||
| liturgist New member Username: liturgist Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 76.102.173.54 |
As an adult, I've become a theologian in the Episcopal/Anglican tradition working toward a real Doctor of Divinity, something John claimed to possess (which has never been proven)--I remember my parents wowed that he knew Greek, for example, and had a doctorate in bible theology. On basic creedal matters alone, CoLW comes across as unorthodox, making the Spirit our whim and will rather than our will being conformed to Christ--seen in fruits, which are patience, charity, etc., by the Spirit. At heart it divides Logos and Rhema, so that the "Living Word" became John's words rather than pointing always to the Living Word, Christ. Worse, it seems that the basic core good news of Jesus Christ, who loved us so much as to become one of us, not deeming equality with God as something to be grasped as our first parents did, but chose to go out of himself for us as human even to death, disappeared as an emphasis on experiences and levels and pressing in to bring about the manifested sons took over. Rather, this seemed all about the community usurping God...one thinks of the serpent's sly suggestion. In that sense, CoLW strikes me as quite Gnostic--wanting a secretive, hidden, special way, rather than the ordinary, upfront news of God in Christ. Having read more, I'm not surprised. Branham's and other's teachings on women as evil, for example, by the standards of today, are incongruent with the orthodox understanding that God created us good. Again, Gnostic with a feel like the Montanists and their blows where it will spirit rather than the Spirit of God who blows us toward Christ and no one else. I pray that those who have struggled to recover from this will be touched by the unconditional love of God in Christ, something hard to believe, after a religion so filled with fear and misused authority. | ||
| michaelstuhler New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hi Everyone: Just wanted to let you all know that I am doing ok. I was sick for awhile but am better now. Raising a 3 year old daughter alone but am blessed. I enjoy reading the posts...know who some of you are but not everyone. No matter what your views on JRS and the Walk are, know that we serve a living God in Jesus Christ that has never changed, irregardless of the status of the Walk and its currrent and former members. God is still on the throne. He has never left it. Be encouraged and serve Him. May God bless you all.} | ||
| michaelstuhler New member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
To Those Interested: I forgot to mention it but God has blessed me with a ministry in writing articles that have circulated pretty much all over the world. They are Christian articles. I am not trying to "toot my horn" so-to-speak, but I would like to offer them to anyone interested. I think they may help alot of you who have left the Walk and are in no man's land right now to find yourself and purpose. Please remember, I have been there already and made it out on the other side. For those in the Walk who might be interested, I think the articles would bless you also. If you are interested, please send me your email address at MSafdieMinistry@aol.com and I will place you on my mailing list. Mischa Stuhler-Safdie' is my legal and real name. Michael Stuhler is just a variance of that name. By the way, }I do not need to know who you are if you do not want to disclose that. Your email address will suffice. The articles are prepared about once a month. For those not interested, please consider that this is a ministry for those who might be interested and it is my desire to be a help and encouragment by doing this. The Living Word still lives within us. That was what it was intended to do. I am not looking to be a "clone" of JRS or anyone else because that was never God's plan for any of us. Rather, the Word of the Lord has its beauty and effectiveness when it can be brought forth through a diversity of vessels...all for His glory..and I am only one of many who will be coming forth. Hopefully what God has given me will be an encouragment to many of you to also move forward and be who and what God has called you to be. Also, please check out my company website at www.RiversideInvestigator.com. This is not related to the articles I write but for those who know me and were wondering what I look like after about 24 years, my photo is on the site...lol. :-) Again, please send your email address to me and I will place you on our ministry mailing list. May God bless you. | ||
| the_aged_one New member Username: the_aged_one Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.217.43.53 |
I was not part of ‘The Walk’, but my path crossed Royal’s in 1990 to 1993. He was a blessing to me. I moved on when I perceived the controlling thing, but upon his death or close to it(1995-6?) I showed honor to whom Honor is due. I went and stayed near his bed side He had a sweet spirit as he left to meet him whom we shall all stand before. We shall see him there on the other side and his work is done, may we all learn from the mistakes of our Moses’and abrahams and become all that God wants us to be. I grew up and had to live in some trash cans from time to time ,I praise god for a warm bed now. So God brought me from the shadows, the call of God was there even in my prison days, and that which God spoke to me in private, Royal prophesized from the roof top. I hope those that are near his wife and children will bless them. I know that God showed me what I could become by showing me Royals end, I took another path,I put my family 1st before the church, I know his heart was to serve, but, like many vessels he had a tough time letting God rule. The mixture of spirit and flesh is everywhere, just more profound sometimes. I am doing fine in my walk AND I hope that you all use those great talents that you have received from God TO SERVE OUR LORDS CREATION. And know that in many of the wineskins of our day, that your giftings will be used in the byways and the highways. For the leaders know not how to serve. But don’t become bitter. I can say I saw more of how the church should operate in a number of small fellowships and in a short time (2 to 3 years each time) than I have in over 30 years as a Christian, but the good news is, he is the head of the church, so its not my problem. I just must do my part even as each of you must serve that person that is in your path. Have not I lead you this far, and will I not finish this work? Please step back into that 1st love and keep it simple. May my presence be strong on and in your lives, may you walk with me in the cool of the day. My gifts are to be given away, and used, don’t wait for the church to become perfect, just obey and know that I enjoy to see my children walking in the light and enjoying there work upon the earth. From a boy whom our Lord found in a trash can and raised to be set among the princes, literally! Michael | ||
| the_aged_one New member Username: the_aged_one Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.217.43.53 |
I was not part of ‘The Walk’, but my path crossed Royal’s in 1990 to 1993. He was a blessing to me. I moved on when I perceived the controlling thing, but upon his death or close to it(1995-6?) I showed honor to whom Honor is due. I went and stayed near his bed side He had a sweet spirit as he left to meet him whom we shall all stand before. We shall see him there on the other side and his work is done, may we all learn from the mistakes of our Moses’and abrahams and become all that God wants us to be. I grew up and had to live in some trash cans from time to time ,I praise god for a warm bed now. So God brought me from the shadows, the call of God was there even in my prison days, and that which God spoke to me in private, Royal prophesized from the roof top. I hope those that are near his wife and children will bless them. I know that God showed me what I could become by showing me Royals end, I took another path,I put my family 1st before the church, I know his heart was to serve, but, like many vessels he had a tough time letting God rule. The mixture of spirit and flesh is everywhere, just more profound sometimes. I am doing fine in my walk AND I hope that you all use those great talents that you have received from God TO SERVE OUR LORDS CREATION. And know that in many of the wineskins of our day, that your giftings will be used in the byways and the highways. For the leaders know not how to serve. But don’t become bitter. I can say I saw more of how the church should operate in a number of small fellowships and in a short time (2 to 3 years each time) than I have in over 30 years as a Christian, but the good news is, he is the head of the church, so its not my problem. I just must do my part even as each of you must serve that person that is in your path. Have not I lead you this far, and will I not finish this work? Please step back into that 1st love and keep it simple. May my presence be strong on and in your lives, may you walk with me in the cool of the day. My gifts are to be given away, and used, don’t wait for the church to become perfect, just obey and know that I enjoy to see my children walking in the light and enjoying there work upon the earth. From a boy whom our Lord found in a trash can and raised to be set among the princes, literally! Michael | ||
| michaelstuhler Junior Member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hi Michael: That was a wonderful and heartfelt post. I bless you in the days ahead that you continue to walk strong with the Lord. Really, it is all about Jesus and who He is...and what you do with Him. Everything else is secondary to that. Mischa Stuhler Safdie' (Michael Stuhler) | ||
| michaelstuhler Junior Member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hi Michael: That was a wonderful and heartfelt post. I bless you in the days ahead that you continue to walk strong with the Lord. Really, it is all about Jesus and who He is...and what you do with Him. Everything else is secondary to that. Mischa Stuhler Safdie' (Michael Stuhler) | ||
| michaelstuhler Junior Member Username: michaelstuhler Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Hi Michael: That was a wonderful and heartfelt post. I bless you in the days ahead that you continue to walk strong with the Lord. Really, it is all about Jesus and who He is...and what you do with Him. Everything else is secondary to that. Mischa Stuhler Safdie' (Michael Stuhler) | ||
| jimmie_ New member Username: jimmie_ Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 130.212.185.137 |
I remember visiting RD Cronquist's church in (Imperial Beach? Chula Vista?) several times when I was teenager in around 1969 or 1970. I had been brought there by another young man named David who held "full-gospel" bible studies at his uncle's place in Point Loma. One Sunday "Brother RD" introduced an older couple at the service as, "... fine, upstanding members of the John Birch Society..." That was IT for this young hippie-boy! I was blown right OUTTA THERE! Does anyone remember David (I think his last name may have been Coe) from those bible studies and blessings of the Holy Spirit in Point Loma? He was around in his late teens or early twenties in 1969 / 1970. | ||
| liamthomas New member Username: liamthomas Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 75.51.85.47 |
That would be David Kokas | ||
| jimmie_ New member Username: jimmie_ Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 130.212.185.137 |
Thank you. I've been getting updates on some of this stuff on another thread |
