| Author |
Message |
    
Anonymous (203.131.109.66)
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 5:25 am: | 
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I just wanted to know what are the grounds that make Watchman Nee's Local Church considered a cult. |
m (69.242.21.100)
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 2:00 pm: |
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i think people accuse his ministry because of excess shepherding ...but i believe he meant very well and has some good books...i mean hey the bible says to ''go and make DISCIPLES of all nations" theres so much "religious spirits" out there calling everybody a cult or accusing this guy and that guy ...but the accusers of the brethren seem to have alot in common ,they like a "dead church" more than a live one ,they like dead preaching instead of preaching that is mixed with faith.. |
Wyoming (199.141.125.33)
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 8:10 pm: |
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M: I disagree with you this time because you narrow a generalization. It's really a mixed bag out there -- running the whole spectrum and not just the accuser's of the brethren liking a "dead church". |
Anonymous (203.131.109.66)
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 4:40 am: |
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I read the Bible written by Witness Nee, I think there are "some" sentences that does not have the same meaning with that of the other Bibles like NIV or King James.
Isn't it that this could be it that his church was considered a cult. They are using a different Bible, the recovery version written by him. |
SquirleyWurley (141.157.13.94)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 2:35 am: |
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Cell churches and discipling/shepherding can get very manipulative and subtle, and some people put their life decisions into the hands of a cell church/local church leader, and at first they don't think they are idolizing such leaders, but things start getting sick, in the name of having faith that God put people together for guidance, etc.
I recommend Mary Alice Chrnaloger's book "Twisted Scripture" to sort out good spiritual fellowship and guidance, from manipulative shepherding/discipling. |
Anonymous (69.242.21.100)
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 9:42 pm: |
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I noticed the post up a few , that witness lee wrote a bible ??? |
Anonymous (203.131.109.66)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 12:35 am: |
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He translated a new version of the Bible. The New Recovery Version. |
Anonymous (208.24.179.208)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 12:43 pm: |
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HEY!. I've already talked to a church GGWO which is on Factnet. A lot of their problems stemmed just from those very bad teachings. Unless you have discernment and an understanding of where this guy comes from there are plenty of volumes written by other strong teachers without the mess you get into with reading Watchman Nee.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n01.html
http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_nees_latent_power.html
It would be better to find something else to read.
M or Michael |
Anonymous (69.143.68.103)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 10:47 am: |
|
The problems at Greater Grace World Outreach stem directly from the teaching of Watchman Nee, particularly his book "Delegated Authority". In this book, Nee states that the primary focus of a Christian and Godly life is TOTAL OBEDIENCE to your pastor. He even goes as far as to say that a Christian must obey his or her pastor, EVEN IF THE PASTOR IS WRONG since God will not judge the follower for doing wrong, only for not obeying the pastor.
What this belief does is create an environment in which the pastor can easily abuse followers, and one in which the pastor is worshipped (since Nee teaches that God only speaks to pastors and they, in turn, speak to you).
Carl H. Stevens is the pastor of Greater Grace. He is openly worshipped by followers, no criticism of any sort is allowed since he is considered God's Annointed Man on Earth, and is allowed to manipulate people at GGWO to the extent of telling people to sell their homes or who to marry. Further, he is suffering from dementia and pain medication abuse to the point that his sermons no longer make any sense or makes fantastic claims. For instance, he recently claimed that five men died for speaking against his ministry.
Go to the Greater Grace World Outreach thread to learn how dangerous Watchman Nee is. It is a certain recipe for abuse of power.
Boss Martian |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:46 am: |
|
Watchman Nee was never part of the Local Church. Before the Local Church started, Watchman Nee was imprisoned for life.
Rather, Watchman Nee, as do I, believe in the local churches. The Local Church is a cult, not affiliated with Watchman Nee (though this cult tries to use his name, as they alter his writings http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Spiritual_Man.htm) nor Nee's little flock in China. The little flock in China have nothing to do with the Local Church still today, they do not. It is amazing how warped peoples' percetions get, but I know why that happens. It is the flesh and its laziness, false associations through the deceptions of cult leaders like Witness Lee. Lee was a calvinist, whereas Watchman Nee was OSAS arminian. Watchman Nee did not believe in Lee's central hub locality. I have learned so much about true salvation, and not the copycat kind that uses copouts or man's methods.
What to do you say to a smear campaing? Shameful.
If you care for the truth when you read this,
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n01.html
make sure you read this,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Richard_Fisher.htm
Richard Fisher is not a Christian (that is, he is not saved).
Now if you are going to read this,
http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_nees_latent_power.html
Make sure you read this to discern the truth,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/cephasbereancall.htm
Also, watch out for Cephas Ministries, they are out of control, slopy undiscerners,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/discipling.htm
My site is here,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm |
overseas (overseas)
Intermediate Member
Username: overseas
Post Number: 271
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 164.143.240.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:47 am: |
|
Witness Lee is cult leader. What is his training in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew to qualify him for translating the Bible ? Even recognised scholars gather together in bigger teams to undertake such a task. W. Lee made his Bible which has a large amount of his erroneous teachings in footnotes. He also teaches heresy instead of Christian Trinity. He leads believers to study based on his 'best' books. Below info from a phillipines site on cults.
1. The Recovery Version of the Bible -– this was spearheaded by Witness Lee along with a number of Local Church members. Only The Recovery New Testament has extensive footnotes written by Witness Lee.
“The Recovery New Testament -- Originally labeled ‘The Gold Bar,’ this is the name given to the first edition of the Local Church's New Testament, The Recovery New Testament. Individual New Testament books were bound together in this single volume in 1985 and was published by the Living Stream Ministry. The overall size, shape, and distinctive gold edging coined this name. The second edition of The Recovery New Testament, published 1991, was printed in England by University Press, Cambridge. The binding and print quality of this second edition rivals that of many recognized study Bibles, such as the Ryrie Study Bible. The Recovery New Testament contains a number of extensive footnotes, all of which are written by Witness Lee, which are supportive of his particular theological slant.”[4]
Lee and the Local Churches believe that there is only one proper version for it’s members and that is the “Recovery Version.”
“First, a Christian needs a proper version of the Bible to progress in his Christian life. Therefore, you need to purchase a Recovery Version. This version is the best translation of the New Testament available today. It is up-to-date and easy to read. It has an outline to help you obtain an overview of what you are reading. It contains footnotes to explain some of the hard-to-understand truths. It also has references to help you locate verses that corresponds to the verses you are reading for your study.”[5]
They have also painstakingly translated Lee’s Recovery Version of the New Testament into Filipino language (1991). This Bible was named, “Ang Bagong Tipan: Salin sa Pagbabawi” which was translated by The Editorial Section of Living Stream Ministry. They have also informed the would-be readers that all notes, charts and references were actually translated from the writings of Witness Lee. It was published in Seoul, Korea and was translated into Filipino in the Philippines. This Study Bible with matching commentary by Lee is very much inclined in his own preconceived and heretical version of the Trinity i.e. modalism in triune form. An example of his commentary on John 14:7 in the Filipino translation reveals,
“Ipinakikita ng kapitulong ito ang Tres-unong Diyos para sa pamamahagi ng Kanyang Sarili tungo sa loob ng mga mananampalataya. Siya ang nag-iisang Diyos, ngunit Siya ay tatlo-ang Ama, ang Anak, at ang Espiritu. Ang Anak ay ang pagsasakatawan at kahayagan ng Ama (bb. 7-11), at ang Espiritu ay ang realidad ng at pagkatanto sa Anak (bb. 17-20). Ang Ama ay naihayag at nakita sa Anak (ang Anak ay tinawag ding Ama – Isa. 9:6) at bilang Espiritu (IICor. 3:17) ang Anak ay nahayag at natanto. Ang Ama sa loob ng Anak ay nakakubli, ang Diyos Anak ay naipakita sa gitna ng mga tao, at ang Diyos Espiritu ay pumapasok tungo sa loob ng tao upang maging kanyang buhay, kanyang panustos ng buhay, at kanyang lahat-lahat. Samakatuwid, ang Ama na nasa loob ng Anak, at ang Anak na naging Espiritu, ay ang Tres-unong Diyos na namamahagi ng Kanyang Sarili tungo sa loob natin at naging ating bahagi upang matamasa natin Siya bilang ang ating lahat-lahat sa loob ng Kanyang maka-Diyos na Trinidad.”[6]
This is what Lee was saying: the Son is the embodiment of the Father and when He resides in the believer He becomes the Holy Spirit so that the Triune God can be experienced. In fact this harmonizes with Lee’s statements in his books, quoted in the book, The New Cults edited by Dr. Walter Martin:
“Thus, the three Persons of the Trinity become the three successive steps in the process of God’s economy.”[7]
“In the heavens, where man cannot see Him, God is the Father; when He is expressed among men, He is the Son; and when He comes into men, He is the Spirit. The Father was expressed among men in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit to come into men. The Father is in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit—the three are just one God.”[8]
“Like wise, the Father, the Son, and Spirit are not three Gods, but three stages of one God for us to possess and enjoy.”[9]
These statements by made Witness Lee are apparently the beliefs of a modalist whether he along with the Local Church leaders admit it or not.
2. Writings of Witness Lee -- Although pretending to allow Local Church members to read other Christian materials, the truth still surface that he wanted each members to be familiar and grounded first in the Local Church theology.
“I do not feel burdened to charge the saints to go home and study beyond what is in the truth lessons, but all the elders should promote the reading of the Recovery Version (the Local Church New Testament), the gold bar, in the homes plus all the Life-studies (Bible commentaries) and other publications by the Living Stream Ministry. These will be their library books. Besides attending the meetings to learn the truth, they should read these spiritual publications every day.” [10]
“My burden is that we must take good care of the young ones among us. Do not bring them into peril so that they will be occupied with the wrong things. We have a pure system of publications which comprise all the main things of the divine, spiritual, and heavenly things. These publications are very adequate for all the young saints among us to have a good foundation laid and a strong standing established. Then they could go on, not to learn more things from the old books, but to check the old books and get themselves confirmed. For us to bring the young ones into the old books without consideration is a peril and a risk. It is not safe. What you young ones can use as reference books, however, are the dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances ....These are the only things which I would recommend for you young ones to use-the lexicons, the dictionaries of languages, and the concordances of the Bible.”[11]
“We do not need to control the saints, and even more we do not need to stop them from reading what they want. As leaders in the Lord's recovery, however, we should conduct the saints the right way....The publications which can help and serve the Lord's recovery in carrying out His New Testament economy for the fulfillment of His heart's desire, I still would say, are the Life-studies and the Recovery Version with the notes. Since this is the case, why would we not wisely conduct the church toward this way? For example, if someone asks us the best way to drive to Phoenix, we should conduct him to the straightest way.” [12] |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 3:17 am: |
|
The deception of course is that this thread confuses Watchman Nee for Witness Lee. That is the sin.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm
To be fair to Lee, to say successive steps is not so bad in itself if you realize that the Father, the Son and the Spirit in eternity are revealed in the OT (though not always discernible which of His 3 Persons is operating), but then Christ came in the flesh, then the indwelling Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost outpouring to save souls. Here we see a succession outwardly according to time.
I would not so accuse for this statement of Lee's, but there is a quote of Witness Lee saying God is a "threefold Person" which is clearly modalism for then you would have to say "God is a Person who is 3 Persons", and that is confusing and dumb. God is not a Person. God is 3 Persons. |
overseas (overseas)
Intermediate Member
Username: overseas
Post Number: 273
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 164.143.240.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 4:37 am: |
|
Yes. Witness Lee (CULT LEADER) should not be confused with Watchman Nee (reputed Chinese christian).
The problem is that W. Lee capitalizes on his former relation with W. Nee to promote the cult. Usually if you inquire on W. Nee you soon bump into W. Lee cult. This is a real danger. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
|
As Boss said, you can get a lot of insights into the effects of the Watchman Nee books by going to our thread on TBS/GGWO.
As was said, Lee started his work after Nee was imprisoned, in fact, the way he began was to abscound with a lot of the folks that Nee helped to escape to Taiwan. Nee eventually died at the hands of the Communist Chinese. Later the books began to be published, however, although they were published as "Written by Watchman Nee" were actually transcribed from notes by a number of students, but mainly Lee. How accurately did they transalted? Very poorly I would say.
My $0.02 from an ex TBS/GGWOer.
Be blessed,
Ralph
1Cor 15:10 |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
|
Ralphwells is mistaken in several ways. First off, to OVERSEAS, the read danger is the undiscerning spirit of how Satan while try to match himself onto God's most spiritual of Christians as Witness Lee did. That is why I created this page,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm
and
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm
Much of Watchman Nee's writings are by his own magazines, not by others' notes. For some reason people need to say this but that is not true so this view of yours ralph, "from notes" is merely your imagination. Nee's two books Rethinking the Work and The Spiritual Man were his only two books he published himself.
If you want to get into the truth that covers every article on the internet that attacks Watchman Nee, you will see for your own eyes in your own heart how deceitful men are.
Also, at CFP is Watchman Nee's COMPLETE WORKS nothing by Witness Lee as was proposed by ralph when he said "mainly lee". This claim is an undiscerning spirit.
All of Watchman Nee's writings at CFP and CLC are perfectly accurate.
Witness Lee's at LSM and his versions were not translated, but actually the sin of bearing false witness making stuff up.
Hope this helps.
In the same way, if someone also uses Watchman Nee's writings like Witness Lee did, or construct their own new bearing false witness material said to be of Watchman Nee you may get stuff like TBS/GGWO. Man prefers to be lazy and tries to make false connections in seeing the flesh of the men misusing. So be it.
The thing about spiritual life is when you touch it, there is lots of false copycats on your heels.
I can testify there is no mistakes to mention at CFP and CLC the authority for Watchman Nee's writings.
I don't know why everyone always has to quote from LSM, but that is how people are.
Watchman Nee = CFP + CLC, not LSM.
That's the math of it.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm
I did a tonne of great work here,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Pat_Knapp.htm |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
|
If you provide your attempt at a connection between TBO/GGWO and Watchman Nee I would be happen to show you how you make a false connection.
I will add it to this list,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm
Always remember, Watchman Nee does not believe in the Local Church central hub of local churches since the Bible has no central Local Church hub.
Rather in the Bible you see the local churches. e.g. the church of Ephesus in the church of Asia Minor or the church of Dallas in the churches of Texas or the church of Jerusalem in the churches of Judea.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm
Did you see how Witness Lee altered The Spiritual Man? Only trust the white covers.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Spiritual_Man.htm
If you want to discuss any of this with me, here is my forum,
http://christianity.3.forumer.com/
This is what God wants to do to set up the local churches is create a really awesome program to facilitate logistics,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchrist.htm |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
|
Praise the Lord!
p.s. this whole thread by the original poster is deceitful calling it "Watchman Nee Local Church", since Watchman Nee has nothing to do with the Local Church, never did, nor did Watchman Nee believe in the Local Church central hub by the Local Church cult. The flesh likes to use and attach itself to what is spiritual and molest it to try to profit from it. Call this pigs in the church (Matt. 7.6) that do not chew their cud, dirty, unregenerated inside.
Read here to understand,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/rethinkingthework.htm
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchrist.htm
Let God free your mind to the truth! It's amazing to see what Nee showed us in the Scriptures, and it is so obvious.}
If your heart has been reached, come join me,
http://christianity.3.forumer.com/ |
the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come)
New member
Username: the_west_here_i_come
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 68.46.231.222
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
|
Hi Guys. I read the comments regarding watchman nee and never thought about the writings being written directly by him. I just assumed. I read his biography called watchman nee a man of suffering.. I was wondering not that it matters but according to this bio there was a man within watchman nee's own ministry that turned him (watchamn nee) in to the government... if I understood it correctly. It's been a while since I read this book but I was wondering does anybody know who it is or was and the remaining of their testimony as to why they did it and their relationship with watchman nee? thanks |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 3:28 am: |
|
I don't know anything about turning someone in, since all the government really needed was the fact that Nee was a leading Christian (which was more than obvious) to jail him for the rest of his life.
All of Nee's writings at CFP are by Watchman Nee from his magazines, transcribed speeches, his own writings, and the 2 books he published. It is all his own writings and translated into English at CFP which are the Complete Works (not the so-called collected works at the lsm/lc cult which even today they keep making new things said to be of Watchman Nee to agree with the lsm agenda).
At the lsm/lc system, they are caught creating false Watchman Nee writings and changing words brutally out of context so they agree with Witness Lee's agenda as for example here,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Spiritual_Man.htm
That is why you can't trust anything from the lsm/lc cult when they say it is Watchman Nee they are selling. Just be aware of this. To further discern this simply compare same source material to see the differences and it will blow your mind away what they are doing.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm
Bottom line: Witness Lee was not a Christian as it turns out, and Watchman Nee was the foremost Christian in the history of the church. It is not always easy to tell if someone is really saved as John in the Bible alludes to. Who would have thought Witness Lee was all about creating a cult and turning Biblical locality into a central hub command and control system? |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 3:34 am: |
|
Read the 5th bullet here to see what happened.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm |
authority (authority)
New member
Username: authority
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 222.152.205.3
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
|
Hey, 'the local church' as your calling it does not have a 'leader', they simply follow the teachings found by certain elders mostly over in the states as there is a lot of study and such of the Bible going on over there.
The recovery version is not a self written but more an up-to date version as it was translated directly from the original language, unlike other versions derived from about 2 - 3 translations and so a lot of the meaning is lost. Ie translating something from hebrew to chinese to french to english will have a very different outcome to just translating from hewbrew straight to english.
The Recovery Version has an extensive amount of footnotes written by Witness Lee, these are to help explain the meaning of the Word and this is what the 'Local Church' follows.
Also about the threefold person, I believe Witness Lee said it correctly, God is a threefold person, you don't say there are 3 God's or 3 Person's, there is one God who is a threefold person. |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 4:01 am: |
|
They call themselves the Local Church which is a central hub at Living Stream Ministry which manages all their websites of all their outlets which they think are local churches.
It would be misguided to say that each of their outlets are operating truly independed as local churches should operate for various reasons. This is obviously seen in the inordinate Witness Lee materials sold from their central hub and additional Witness Lee training manuals. That is not how Biblical locality is suppose to operate. They also have their own annual training seminars from Living Stream Ministry.
Living Stream Ministry was created by Witness Lee, and now men live out his mind with its errors of modalism, screamers, suing Christians, and various other antics. Biblical locality will never come about by one man, but by twelve in agreement,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/bodyofchrist.htm
I think it is dumb to say other Bibles are from "2 or 3 translations" since it is common knowledge the major Bibles derive their formation from all previous documents, languages and texts, to make the best decision that their scholars deemed best. You do not go to an end translation in swahili when the original language was hebrew or greek. That creates confusion. Swahili takes from hebrew and greek, just as English should.
See, you admitted the central hub command strucure and control system when you called the lsm/lc system the "Local Church" as I quote you. In the Bible there is no central control system called the Local Church. There are the local churches only. Witness Lee was quite dumb to implement this terminology from his flesh, but it is these kinds of things that we can pick out to expose him as a fraud.
I know you believe Witness Lee when witness Lee said God is a "three-fold Person". Note, Lee used a capital P, not a small p too, not the way you said it with a small p for that would be additionnally bizarre that God is a person now making Him human with 3 folds. God is greater than that. Man is tripartite, spirit, soul and body, but God is 3 Persons: Father, Son, Spirit. Persons is a spiritual term to give a word to each of God's forms. Capital P Persons speaks of something supernaturally so above us, that we can think of no other better word to reveal His personableness in His 3 Persons. God is 3 Persons, God is not a Person. That is too limiting lowering God from what He really is. Modalists are wrong because they say "God is a threefold Person".
You believe as you said "you don't say there are 3 Persons". That is what the Trinity is. You have just single handedly tried to kill God's Trinity and Triune nature. It is God revealing Himself in 3 Persons, not one Person. How odd a teaching of the Local Church.
Anyway you can see the non-Biblical teaching of the leeists. This is how we know for a fact that most of them are not saved. Lot's of brutal things in leeism,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/LeeModalism.htm
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/godmanproblems.htm
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/babies.htm
If Watchman Nee were alive today obviously he would refuse Witness Lee in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: God's 3 Persons, for God reveals Himself in His 3 personablenesses. Persons is a spiritual term, language not of this world. You ought not make God out to be singular or worldly by calling God a modalist Person. He Triune monotheistically. 3 Persons, not one Person, for He is Father, Son, Spirit.
Watchman Nee has never taught Witness Lee's calvinism pride of believing he was premade for salvation and others premade for hell, nor the modalism concotion brew of Satan of God only being a Person.
You can know for a fact Witness Lee was not an apostle and no one in the Witness Lee organization is an apostle either, as proven here,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/needtoagree.htm
Some people have pride in killing the Trinity. |
churchwork (churchwork)
New member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:52 pm: |
|
Hope this helps the misunderstanding and the misreading that Watchman Nee has no involvement in the Local Church cult by Witness Lee. Watchman Nee believed in the Biblical locality (without a central hub, without the various false teachings of lsm/lc) or what is referred to as locality or the local churches.
(Message edited by Churchwork on March 02, 2005) |
me_again (me_again)
New member
Username: me_again
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.145.54.220
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
|
Please use extreme caution with churchwork (Troy Brooks). He is unforgiving to those that disagree with his view. He has gone to great lengths to exalt himself as a guru of Christianity. I find it interesting that he has been able to identify Witness Lee as a cult leader yet overlooks his own efforts as beginning a cult. Remember that all false religion starts with a grain of truth. It is then distorted to deceive new believers. Mr. Brooks (churchwork) will attempt to make you believe that only he can interpret and that anyone else’s interpretation is wrong. There is evidence of this right here on this thread alone, which can be confirmed with any of his correspondence and/or writings. Again please be careful with this person he is the seed of a cult. Research and study with discernment and remember Jesus’ warnings of false prophets. |
churchwork (churchwork)
Intermediate Member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 243
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:47 am: |
|
Notice the evil spirit is an attacker, vague as the wind, without any reason behind his attacks. Notice s-t-a-l-k-i-n-g "me_again", falsely accuses like the evil spirit for this and that, but has no reason given, just a selfish self-declaration. That is how the evil spirit works and easily can be identified working in the blamers such as me_again. Such men are obsessed, opening themselves up to possession. Praise the Lord for this discernment! Christians are forgiving, don't believe me_again's hatred, hostility and efforts to deceive through self-declarations for they merely point to his or her own selfishness in being so vague and self-declaring. Remember, all cults start with someone's vague accusations without any reasoning made, and passed off as a grain of truth. Cults never start on the truth, not even a grain; that is the deception, to think they are, that me_again is propagating. It is an oxymoron to say: "false religion starts with a grain of truth". No! False religion starts with a grain of untruth as well as vagaries. Do you see how we can easily expose the me_again's deceptive work?
Witness Lee (Local Church-LSM) was unregenerated (modalist, having calvinism pride of believing he was pre-made for salvation, a violent shouter, sued for faith, and died under false locality by central hub for control purposes).
Christians are not modalists. Witness Lee (a modalist) said "God is a threefold Person" and the "Father is the Son". This reveals that Witness was never born again and is currently waiting for resurrection in the bad side of hades, later to be resurrected after the millennium, and then, thrown into the lake of fire. He worshipped some false god of modalism, refusing Christ's redemption, since God is not a Person with 3 folds, but the Godhead is a Trinity of 3 Persons in eternity past to eternity future, and the Son is always distinct from the Father, though they are OF the same Substance and Being as the Triune God. Yet they are not the same.
Watchman Nee was osas arminian according to acceptance of the needed choice made in the image of God to receive God's grace (non-calvinist). He was fervent in prayer, fellowship and prayer (non-shouter), Trinitarian (non-modalist), accepted Biblical locality (non-central hub locality), was of the little flock (which praise the Lord still today reject Witness Lee’s Local Church), never sued for faith, and only ever published 2 books; whereas Witness Lee was a book publishing nightmare for filthy lucre that altered Watchman Nee's writings and made new writings said to be of his that never were.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Spiritual_Man.htm
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm
The "Complete Works" of Watchman Nee, the actual authority of Watchman Nee's writings can be found at Christian Fellowship Publishers, preserved by Stephen Kaung. http://www.c-f-p.com/
Some (those in calvinist cults) like to bear false witness of Watchman Nee and call him a calvinist (pride of believing one is pre-made for salvation), while others accuse him of being osas arminian (he is osas arminian). He is clearly osas arminian. Anyone who reads his writings knows this obviously as it is recounted as a fact in his words thousands of times. The purpose of this distinction is to show that the little flock (who refuse subsequent cults) are not calvinists, while the Local Church (one of those cults, even the biggest one) is smothered by calvinism. The latter is a cult that alters Watchman Nee's writings. Its cult leader is Witness Lee (unregenerated), deceased, and now that lsm/lc cult is controlled by his physical birth children who receive the profits of hard sought after filthy lucre.
A few examples that Watchman Nee is osas arminian are as follows (taken from Christian Fellowship Publishers-white covers, and authority of Nee's writings translated by Stephen Kaung). You can link to them from my page.
"He [Satan] was created by God and was given a free will, just as God has given us human beings free will. How sad that this created angel misused this freedom! How many are the people today who abuse their freedom even as Satan of old did" (Mystery of Creation). Even claiming one is a calvinist, pridefully premade for salvation like robots, is an abuse of the freedom as Satan of old did. God premakes no one for salvation. Rather, He foreknows who will come to the cross to give His life to. We, Christians, are God's foreknown elect, which agrees with osas arminian.
"The man whom God created has a free will—that is to say, he has his sovereignty" (Mystery of Creation). His sovereignty is made in the image of God with a free-will. Out of that glory and grace of God's creation, we may access the redemptive design. God longs to see those make just such a choice for Him so He can give them His blessing of eternal life. He does not premake anyone to choose. That is zombiism.
In the Complete Works (note, this is not the altered "collected works at lsm) of Watchman Nee, he mentioned in favor of free-will at least 130 times.
"Whosoever believes shall be saved. This is the word to unbelievers. But God’s election—God’s predestination—is the word for believers. It will be unwise, if not a grave error, if the word for believers is spoken to unbelievers. Please note, for instance, that it was to the disciples that the Lord asserted: 'Ye did not choose me, but I chose you' (John 15.16). These words should therefore not be told to unbelievers".
"Once a theological student went to see a servant of God, asking: 'I find the Bible saying that man’s salvation is predestinated by God. Yet as I am preaching, I look at someone’s face and conclude that God has not predestinated him to be saved. What, then, will happen if I do persuade that one to get saved?' The servant of God wisely answered: 'You go and preach. And if you persuade anyone to be saved, then he must have indeed been predestinated by God.'"
"We ought to realize that the reason why God tells the believers that they are predestinated to be saved is for the purpose of arousing in them a heart of gratitude such as might be expressed by some believer in the following way: 'Many are still unsaved; and yet here I am, saved. I can only say that God has chosen me out of the tens of thousands. Hallelujah! I am saved, not because of my merit but because of God himself. I can do nothing but thank and praise Him!'"
"Hence we may answer that the words in Revelation 22.17 are spoken to unbelievers. And in this way shall the truth be balanced". (Gospel Dialogue). This is to give Christians comfort. Such is the meaning behind osas arminian, without the pride of believing one is premade for salvation like that under the calvinism of so many cults today (false reformation and false restoration and false recovery).
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17).
Nee wrote---The reason why Jacob’s brother is not named is because it is written in the Scriptures, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated” (Rom. 9.13). This is the marvelous way of God’s election. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Rom. 9.15), thus showing that the purpose of God according to election “is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy” (Rom. 9.16). Notwithstanding this sovereign way of God’s election, it is not done casually but rather according to His “foreknowledge.” For God knows beforehand who will be willing to accept grace and so be blessed: “the elect . . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1.1,2). First, foreknowledge; then, election. Due to God’s love for Jacob, his sons became the twelve tribes of Israel. (Interpretting Matthew)
According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race. (Spiritual Authority)
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" (Rom. 8.29). Ergo, predestination is by foreknowledge. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose. |
lindsey374 (lindsey374)
New member
Username: lindsey374
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.20.106.194
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 3:36 pm: |
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Umm I read spiritual authority (not delegated authority) and it does not say to obey your pastor if they are wrong...if it causes you to sin. Alot to times we tend to view our pastor as wrong on petty things and use it as an excuse to be in rebellion.
If I disagree with my pastors that the chairs in the sanctuary should be set up with 1 isle down the center instead of 2.. I am to obey my Pastor because if He is wrong God will deal with him. This is in fact Biblical and Watchman Nee backs it up with scriptures.
I read that book and was really touched by it. My exposure to him has been nothing but good things. |
churchwork (churchwork)
Intermediate Member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 423
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:32 am: |
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Amen. I found it most rewarding to pick apart Pat Knapp's misreading.
We need not be afraid to confront the use of the term "delegated authority" for if we know submission, then we know authority and those who are in the Ministry and the Work for the Church we accept gladly in their giving their lives for the Church.
Such harmony and cohesiveness is a glory to God. It is perfect cause and affect in relationships like an orchestra.
Direct authority is considered direct revelation in your spirit from God, while delegated authority are those persons whom have such direct authority to do the Work of some Ministry.
Come join Biblocality Forum. |
churchwork (churchwork)
Intermediate Member
Username: churchwork
Post Number: 445
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 142.59.133.44
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 3:54 am: |
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New forum http://biblocality.com/forums |
berean
New member
Username: berean
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 65.87.178.34
| | Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 8:49 pm: |
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I have been reading Churchwork on the Local Church Movement and would like his input on their doctrine of "Mingling".
Witness Lee States " Do you know what it means to be a real Christian? To be a real Christian simply means to be mingled with God, to be a God-man." From The Four Major Steps Of Christ- Lee p7
Lee teaches that Christ does not have a seperate Divinity and a seperate Humanity as 20 centuries of Christianity has always declared, but a mixing{mingling} of the two. Is this not a Heresy? |
termin8d
Intermediate Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 159
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:02 am: |
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Are you really sure you want to take the word of Churchwork - Troy Brooks. I tell you, I almost guarantee you that if you have fellowship with him you'll eventually agree that he does not represent the Christian community.
For a start, He believes that more OSAS Arminians are much more likely to be saved than Calvinists. He believes that Luther was not saved, Calvin was not saved, Augustine was not saved, Hank Hanegraff is not saved, and the list goes on.
He believes that the New Jerusalem will be a physical city on Mars, goes around insulting Christians left right and centre, and bans anyone from his forum who does not agree with his views of partial rapture, women elders, etc.
He says that in his experience, the most spiritual Christians are the ones who have visited his forum, and all the other forums are trash because they're too calvinistic, charismatic or whatever.
Now as far as the teaching of Christ's natures, Witness Lee clearly taught that Jesus Christ had both a human nature and a divine nature, which were distinct from one another. Witness Lee repeatedly stated that these two natures did not form to produce a new nature or a single nature. Both the human and Divine natures of Christ were completely preserved as distinct. Regarding mingling, it was merely to express the fact that Christ was, and is, a Divine Human Being. In eternity past, He possessed Divinity alone, yet in time, through His incarnation, Christ put on the human nature. Thus, in the single person of Jesus Christ there was a mingling of the Divine nature with the Human nature. He was a perfect man and the very God. As far as Christians are concerned, we were the opposite. Prior to our regeneration, we possessed the human nature alone, but after our believing into Christ, and receiving His life into us, we received the Divine life, and with it the Divine nature. The human life has the human nature, and the Divine life has the Divine nature.
In becoming Christians, our regeneration did not produce a third nature, nor did it reduce the two natures to one, but it preserved the two natures, just as the two lives, in our very being. The Divine nature and the Human nature mingled together is what makes us Christian, the New Creation of God. |
churchworker
New member
Username: churchworker
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 198.53.214.107
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 1:35 am: |
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Watchman Nee never believed in any of these false teachings taught by Witness Lee:
1) Shouters and violent repetitive screaming mantra;
2) calvinism pride of assumed robotic preprogrammed preselectionism;
3) modalism, claiming the Father is the Son and the Godhead is a Person rather than 3 Persons;
4) suing Christians for their faith;
5) calling themselves God; and
6) bearing false witness, prolific in altering Nee's writings (the Bible places this sin right next to the worst of sins).
Additionally, Watchman Nee taught Biblocality, and not to align yourself with a false system like The Local Church which distributes mainly its own products to its outlets from Living Stream Ministry which is a corporate entity owned by the physical birth children of the unsaved and deceased Witness Lee.
Witness Lee was not a Christian nor are most Leeists. As the Bible says we shall know them by their fruit. Whom you associate yourself with God will judge you by. |
termin8d
New member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:53 pm: |
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Shame on you Troy Brooks. You have defied the owners of this forum by reposting under a new username. You need to read Authority and Submission by Watchman Nee.
Looks like I'll just have to get you kicked off again. |
fatherofaking
New member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 22
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.161.88.202
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:12 am: |
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it seems he has left of his own accord.
after over 200 posts in 10 days.
this is his last post.
I find the posts from non-Christians are increasing to such a high degree of mindlessness that it is not God’s will to help save them further. So God is telling me to leave this place and kick the dust under my feet.
I don't have time to post on any other forum than at Biblocality Forums, so if you have anything else, please contact me there regarding the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible or any other issues you may have. |
termin8d
New member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 5:39 am: |
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If only, Fatherofaking. It's not the first time he's said he'd leave and not come back. 200 posts in 10 days shows how much this guy really needs to get a reality check. Check out how many posts on his forum are from ppl other than him, the ratio is staggering. On second thoughts, don't waste your time. |
workerforthechurch
Junior Member
Username: workerforthechurch
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 38.100.22.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:54 pm: |
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If you are a leeist seeking refuge from the lsm/lc cult or considering it, have you come to the right place! Still to this day the Little Flock in China reject The Local Church Living Stream Ministry.
If you like reading Watchman Nee (CFP white covers) but find he is not the same Watchman Nee portrayed at lsm/lc, have you come to the right place!
In terms of the most important things that Nee differed with Lee for Christians, it is simply a matter of accepting the truth of mistaken assumptions:
- you don't have to engage in repetitive screaming mantra;
- you don't have to sign your name on a document suing other Christians for their faith whomever the leeists decide to sue next;
- you don't have to accept and stand for calling yourself God and you can speak up against it without fear of reprisal;
- you don't have to accept the notion of calvinism that you are totally deprave and can't have chosen the cross unless you were saved first like a robot and others not without God having any regard for their free-choice;
- you don't have to associate yourself with a system of men who claim God the Father is actually the Son of God;
- you don't have to accept the leeist rendering of Nee's writings, e.g. claiming desire is really hate (ch. 2 The Spiritual Man) so that you have no emotions outside what the leeist control;
- you don't have to accept Lee's believe that women could be nothing: not Apostles, not Elders, not teachers, etc., which is abusive to wome (make no mistake about it);
- you don't have to accept the new city is not a physical new city;
- you don't have think God never wanted you to have knowledge that we all have now, that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was never God's will for you to know in due time;
- you don't have to accept that locality requires a central hub of the Living Stream Ministry to distribute just its products for filthy lucre.
- you don't have to accept that apostles choose apostles, rather than apostles are directly chosen by God.
If I have touched your heart in anyway, that place you can find refuge at is Biblocality Forums. Though the purpose of Biblocality.com is great in scope to get the Apostles in agreement and begin establishing Biblical localities like in the first century, it will not leave you leeists high and dry as there is a section devoted to helping you in the modalism section as I feel that is a major issue that has denied the Christian teaching for 2000 years of the Trinity in which God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit should never be confused one for the other.
Mormons come along 1800 years later and tell you Jesus is not one Being with the Father though always existed (which is polytheism or tritheism). JW's tell you that Jesus was a created being (denying the perfect atonement that only the uncreated creator could be). Leeists tell you that Jesus is the Father (which is not what Isaiah 9.6 is saying at all)-most scholars agree.
For me these things are not difficult things to understand and are easily proven in God's Word and done so at Biblocality Forums. My burden is for leeists lost in their motivation to want a community of believers in fellowship. However, being associated with the lsm/lc is not the way to go about it. Remember, Satan makes his copies of God's design. As soon as truth is revealed, Satan is not far behind trying to make a facsimile of it. You know this I am sure. It is time to walk away from that cult by leaning on the strength, might and power of the Holy Spirit to the glory of God.
You can do it! I know you can, for it is God's will for you. Just think how joyful God's heart would be if you did it. Wow! |
termin8d
Intermediate Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:06 am: |
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fatherofaking: Look like he's back again, just as predicted. |
loverofchrist
Intermediate Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 247
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:04 pm: |
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Yeah.....And he's spamming the forums with his own cult-like "Biblocality" group as well. |
workerforthechurch
Member
Username: workerforthechurch
Post Number: 53
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 38.100.22.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 5:16 pm: |
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Notice how loverofanotherchrist and this person who wants to terminate his soul to be a zombie for Satan do not deal with their false teachings. This is unsuprisingly typical behavior of someone who is demonically possessed, in this case, by the demon of leeism as they try to terminate people who can expose their false teachings. Crazy stuff!
In church history there is a name for this. It is called martyrdom which shall be rewarded, though I don't think they will kill me in their hatred and hostility at least not yet. They would like to shut me down though or at least claim everyone is Troy because only Troy disagrees with them they will tell you, lol. That was funny, haha! |
loverofchrist
Intermediate Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 251
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:03 pm: |
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"workerforthechurch"
You are Troy. Anyone can tell by the way that you post.
You've been reported. |
workerforthechurch
Member
Username: workerforthechurch
Post Number: 80
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 38.100.22.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:57 pm: |
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I like Troy. I like how he just lays it down on the line and says it just as it is-these are the 6 major sins of leeism. Try to disprove it. If you can't it's because you can't, so leave the cult. That's the logical thing to do. I am not so impressed with the latter since they are still in the cult. |
workerforthechurch
Member
Username: workerforthechurch
Post Number: 81
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 38.100.22.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:59 pm: |
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You shouldn't try to report people and terminate them for no just cause. That's what the Pharisees did, and I suppose we have those trying to be like the levites today as leevites trying to keep a law unto themselves with shouting mantra requirements and insistence that as a leevite you call yourself God.
(Message edited by workerforthechurch on August 29, 2007) |
everstill
Intermediate Member
Username: everstill
Post Number: 170
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 85.92.130.117
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 4:10 pm: |
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I see a contradiction for the name of this thread, "Witness Lee / Watchman Nee / Little Flock / Biblical Locality" which misrepresents reality.
Try to understand.
A Witness Lee cult (The Local Church Living Stream Ministry) member (nickname-loverofchrist) who rejects many of Watman Nee's (Little Flock Biblocality) teachings says he disagrees with Nee which there are several quotes of him doing so.
That is why he started the thread, he calls The Cult of Biblocality, though of course he cannot show it; that is why he hopes to point out errors, but can't actually do it.
loverofchrist's first mistake is to say "leader of this organization". Since there is no leader in Biblocality, then to accuse an apostle for the church of being the single leader of the whole universal church is wrong.
Since Watchman Nee did not believe in a central name called The Local Church or distribution operations from a central organization called The Living Stream Ministry, with an Acting God Witness Lee, then you can see how this thread is improperly titled, but the forum owners or moderators are blind to this because they do not have a discerning spirit, being non-Christians and unsaved, going to hell. |
everstill
Intermediate Member
Username: everstill
Post Number: 171
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 85.92.130.117
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 4:13 pm: |
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It is the owners of factnet.org that changed the title of this thread out of spite. |
everstill
Intermediate Member
Username: everstill
Post Number: 172
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 85.92.130.117
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 4:14 pm: |
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Conclusion: Satan and those in Satan are the authors of confusion. |
truth_on_lee
New member
Username: truth_on_lee
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 74.255.70.210
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 12:13 pm: |
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Does anybody know how we can access the audio files mentioned elsewhere? And does anybody have direct email to Troy Brooks? |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 789
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 75.167.163.215
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 12:41 am: |
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Why get an audio? Why not just attend a meeting of any local church and see for yourself?
Oh yeah.....We'll probably brainwash you the second you walk through the door.</sarcasm> |
lema_nal
Intermediate Member
Username: lema_nal
Post Number: 211
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.250.190.20
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 10:42 am: |
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quote:Does anybody know how we can access the audio files mentioned elsewhere? And does anybody have direct email to Troy Brooks?
Troy's website: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm
You can contact him through a contact form: http://biblocality.com/forums/sendmessage.php
I have his email address, but I do not think I should post it here. You can contact me: lema_nal@yahoo.com.
BTW, Troy is not a member of Local Church. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 790
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 75.167.163.215
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 10:53 am: |
|
No....He's just a very objectionable person in the internet whose opinion can't be trusted. But feel free to get the audio recordings which he claims are evidence of demon possession (Oh, and by the way, don't mention anything about yourself. He's likely to find a way to condemn you to hell, like he's with pretty much everyone with whom he corresponds). |
lema_nal
Intermediate Member
Username: lema_nal
Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.250.190.20
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 11:21 am: |
|
BTW, I had correspondence with Troy, and he did not condemn me to hell. |
lema_nal
Intermediate Member
Username: lema_nal
Post Number: 213
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.250.190.20
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
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truth_on_lee and other readers of this thread,
be very careful when somebody says to you: "Come and see." Many mind controlling groups have this tactic. For example, when my friend Scientologist tried to recruit me into Scientology, he told the same thing: "Come and see yourself." He did not know that by that time I knew something about mind control in Scientology: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/s/scientology/pignotti/.
Regarding mind control in Local Church, see another thread: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/39901.html?1197577987
BTW, mind control is never instant. See a good article on this subject: http://www.factnet.org/Thought_Reform_Exists.htm. Margaret Singer was the leading expert on mind control in the world. She studied this phenomenon more than 50 years. She usually called it "thought reform", most other specialists call it "mind control". In this article, she dealt with some common misconcepts of this phenomenon. |
firstgarden
Intermediate Member
Username: firstgarden
Post Number: 168
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 64.12.117.202
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 3:34 pm: |
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lema_nal - While your concerns are valid, please be aware that the expression "come and see" has very good biblical origins.
Come and see the works of God, Who is awesome in His deeds toward the sons of men.
Ps 66:5
Jesus told them, "Come, and you will see." So they went to see where he was staying and spent the rest of that day with him.
Jn 1:39
Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see."
Jn 1:46
Come and see a man who has been talking to me of everything I ever did! Is it possible that this is the Christ?
Jn 4:29
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:1
So Jesus asked, "Where did you put Lazarus?" They answered him, "Lord, come and see."
Jn 11:34
All blessings
And happy holidays 
~fg~ |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 791
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 75.167.162.199
| | Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 9:29 pm: |
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Thank you, firstgarden.
I would also remind you, lema, that it is common practice of most, if not all, Christians to invite people to their meetings. Especially if a person has questions about their denomination.
(Message edited by loverofchrist on December 27, 2007) |
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