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randyspenser
New member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 9:01 pm: | 
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How would a group best decide who to "invite" to be new members? Would it be based on compatability of goals? Needs? open to all as long as they adhere to the "rules"?
What would you decide if YOU were the one starting a new community? Could you determine goals or would you first want to have a few members to begin with that would help to establish those goals and "rules". What if your handful you started with didn't agree with your intentions. If you start it by yourself, are you putting yourself up as the leader and does it become at some level dictatorial?
Do you think these are things ANY group (including the Twelve Tribes) had to wrestle with? I do respect them for for 3 decades, they have continued to move forward. It would either have to be brilliance in organization, dedicated to cause, being annointed or a combination of some or all of these. } |
fatherofaking
Intermediate Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 311
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.255.159.145
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:36 pm: |
|
when starting a monastic order(community?) this has been the model for centuries.
this is an excerpt from a paper that does a comparison to monastic orders and the largest and most successful fraternity in the world, the freemasons.
Benedict of Nursia
Born in Nursia (present-day Norcia in Italy) he lived from 480 - 550. He was born into a well-to-do family of land-owners. What is known of him comes mostly from one of his monks who later became pope Gregory (590 - 604). Gregory wrote the Dialogues, a book about the lives of Benedict and other Saints.
His Rule dates from about 530 AD.
If the rule of Benedict is compared with other monastic Rules one cannot fail to notice the simplicity and the ease with which he directs monastic life. Some Rules, for instance the Celtic versions, can be very strict, and are almost a penal code.
The Rule of Benedict was one of the most written and read manuscript in the Middle Ages. His was the most influential rule. That may well be because of the intriguing mélange of strictness and forgiveness. Benedict gives very detailed instructions for the daily rituals, including which Psalms to sing at which days. In Chapter 18 however he states that "if this distribution is displeasing to anyone, he should arrange them otherwise". A wise acceptance of differences and changing possibilities.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/monastic_masonic_orders.html
to maintain a community there would have to be a genuine conversion experience of it's members upon entering.
this happens through the initiation ritual.
it is always composed of the same elements.
the death ,burial and resurrection.
if these are incorporated into the ritual and properly understood by the initiate a conversion experience is likely to happen.
it does not happen for everyone.
the reasons very.
one could be that the initiate is joining for other than altruistic motives.
another could be that the initiate has not been properly taught what it is that he is doing.
it could be a combination of both.
there are many others i am sure.
the ability to understand what is being taught is also important.
i think the twelve tribes has stayed together because they do provide this conversion experience.
they call it something else of course (salvation) but is no different than any other conversion experience in any other religion.
that is where the confusion comes in.
i had no idea what it was that had happened to me.
i experienced the same thing when i joined the TT as when i joined a christain denomination.
i underestand it clearly now.
that is why i see no need to ever go back.
the christian rhetoric of salvation only through a man named jesus and the exclusivity that they teach is just plain wrong.
it does not fit with the human experience.
sorry, guess i got a little carried away there.
i will let my statements stand even though i know i will get some flack for them.
i believe i can back up what i am saying and am not afraid to be wrong if i cannot.
when i am shown to be wrong i have made a commitment to change.
fear of the truth is no longer something i will tolerate in my life. |
jodymcgrody
New member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.62
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:59 am: |
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The "Ideal" community already exists but all its members are asleep.
We flock to the Twelve Tribes because it's the closest imitation to what we 'know' deep inside. But it's just another false grail.
If I were starting a community I would say "wake up: God is inside of you. Open your eyes."
Then I would run like hell before the Roman authorities got there...no wait, different time. |
truth_seeker
Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 9:44 am: |
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Randy,
Who to invite?
Who will come? Would you be able to live with them? Any community must have some sort of goal however simple it may be, so yes, those involved would have to be on board and be like minded. People with special needs could be included provided the community could still function and thrive, there has to be balance. I would never open anything to all, you never know what you are going to get. I think it would be best to go with people you know, or with people who know people you know.
A far as rules go, well if you are in a community of people you know, and you are all working toward a common goal, then I'd hope there wouldn't be any need for written rules. If someone isn't acting right, they would be confronted and ask to change their behavior. I wouldn't include people I would anticipate having problems with, but if someone did have a problem, the community would pull together to try and help them out, but not enable them.
So, if it was a community we were beginning, it would start like this...contact a few key friends and family, purchase land, the goal of community would be to operate as agriculturally, economically, and environmentally efficiently as possible, to be close family and friends, to raise children together, to share meals together, work together, and live off the grid so to speak and enjoy a more natural fundamental way of life.
The tribes offer much of this, but the catch is Yahshua. I would never want to live in any other sort of religious community other than the twelve tribes for the following reasons.
1. The name Yahshua, they know it!
2. The gospel they preach, a life for a life,
no compromise!
3. Well, I guess those are the main reasons,
but I also think a biblical community should honor the Sabbath, not love the things of the world, and be preparing for the second coming of the Messiah, and model the first church.
Are your thinking of starting your own community? Why re-invent the wheel? |
nabashalam
Intermediate Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 268
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:39 pm: |
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I had to stop for a day, pray and take a deep breath before I attempted to reply to this...
First off FOAK, just as Jody said, we are living in the 21st century and Randy isnt talking about some secret society monastary! He is talking about a community! Men, woman and children! A village! A tribe if you will! Not Monks!
And it's not reinventing the wheel, its just forming a new one. A fresh one that has been built knowing the mistakes of history and learning from them. Keeping an eye out for the "Romans" and keeping pride, high-control and fear at bay.
And it will never be considered a "grail" but a container non the less, of the pure in heart living and loving each other without the "leaven of the Pharisees".
I agree with truthseeker... The golden rule rules. "If someone isn't acting right". But ask yourself this question, who decides what is right behavior and what isnt? For instance, do you watch TV? What is allowed and what is not? G rated movies? PG? Heck, regular primetime is rated R now!
Another example. I smoke! About a half pack a day. Would I be denied entrance? I do curb my habit, smoke strictly outside and away from anyone. I do intend on quitting as every smoker does. I just dont have the stimuli to do so yet and a place such as community with its peer pressure usually does it for me. But in the meantime would I be allowed to indulge in my one vice? I would support my own habit and it would not cost anyone anything except me and my health...
Friends and family is a good start. Word of mouth is plenty enough of advertisement. Let the "Spirit" draw who it wills. Anyone who shows up will be required to participate in whatever is needed up to their capabilities and time itself is a great threshing floor.
It definitely needs to be democratic. Majority rules. You might need to even draft a constitution and bill of rights!
Does it need to be strictly Christian? I think not.
Havent we learned yet about non-secular communities? Yahshua came for the sick! Not the righteous! Especially the self righteous!
Why not have Christians and also those who arent sure? Like these folks! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
But truth seeker! You already started an argument if you went strictly non-secular! When is the "Sabbath"??? Saturday? Sunday? How do you observe it and to what extent??? IMHO everyday I am breathing(ruach) is Gods day and should be given to Him!
OK, let me start over...
(cont.) |
fatherofaking
Intermediate Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 316
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.255.159.145
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:20 pm: |
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it was a comparison naba.
if you looked at the article you would understand.
even the TT incorperates some of the benedictine rule in their communities.
the conversion experience is the key.
an understanding of the concepts of death, burial and resurrection are key ingredients to a spiritual community. |
nabashalam
Intermediate Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 269
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 3:02 pm: |
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"How would a group best decide who to "invite" to be new members?"
-Open it up to a dialogue. Serious enquiries only.
"Would it be based on compatability of goals?"
-Yes. Define goals!
"Needs?"
-Will these needs be met through your goal, or is meeting these needs part of your goal?
"open to all as long as they adhere to the "rules"?"
-Yes! As long as they take on your goal!
"What would you decide if YOU were the one starting a new community? Could you determine goals or would you first want to have a few members to begin with that would help to establish those goals and "rules"."
-I would suggest both for starters.
"What if your handful you started with didn't agree with your intentions."
-Intentional communities start with the same intentions. Intentions can change but must be democratically agreed upon first or it can be agreed upon in the beginning never to change your original intention. Dont ever lose your "first love".
"If you start it by yourself, are you putting yourself up as the leader and does it become at some level dictatorial?"
-Only if its run dictatorial. You must decide. Do you want the final say on everything or will you allow democracy to take place.
Do you think these are things ANY group (including the Twelve Tribes) had to wrestle with?
-Absolutely! And you will see that the non-secular ones with the most longevity turned into dictatorial hierarchies. Take a look at some of the older secular communities and see how they run things. They usually have some sort of government but elected from below and not from the top!
I dont see why you cant have a cooperative secular/nonsecular community. The goal should be simple...LOVE! Arent most villages made up as such?
You dont see the agnostics and theist shooting each other! Its the Christians and the Muslims! The Catholics and the Protestants!
Read this Randy...
http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/publications/SosiscommunesCCR2000.pdf
http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/publications/SosisandBresslerCCR2003.pdf
If you use religion as the mortar, it might last longer but at what cost?
After some research, maybe we should use a little history in this modern day...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_commune
http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/root1.html |
nabashalam
Intermediate Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 270
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 3:28 pm: |
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"the conversion experience is the key."
http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/james/toc.htm |
fatherofaking
Intermediate Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 319
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.255.159.145
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:03 pm: |
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thanks naba,
i thought i might be being ignored.
nothing i can't handle.
it happens all the time.
i have read william james' book cover to cover.
i still use it as a reference sometimes.
i first read the book when i got involved with AA for a time.
bob and bill were very familiar with that book.
do you agree that a conversion experience is important to keeping a spiritual community together?
the problem i have experienced in the TT is that they don't know that this experience is not exclusive to them.
i believed them when they said that i could not possibly have the holy spirit apart from being baptized into there group.
i became very confused when i had the same experience as when i became a christian.
i was told that what i had was a christian spirit.
i was devastated.
i tried to hang on but it was not possible when i denied the only thing that could have kept me there.
they are simply ignorant of the truth of these things it seems.
william james is really the only proof needed to show that the TT are not exclusive in any way.
i wish it didn't take me so long to figure that out.
no matter.
i am where i am and am pretty happy with the progress i am making.
the eventual goal is to revisit that conversion experience.
i am on my way. |
nabashalam
Intermediate Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 271
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
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IMHO I believe it is strictly neurological and self induced but I could be wrong! But I definitely dont believe it is necessary for any purpose or should it be required as such. Although it could be needed by the individual.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/moriyuki/abukuma/moriyukis/intro/Religious_Experience.html |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 11:24 am: |
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Wow! Thats the longest I've went without a FACTNet "fix" in a long time! I was "jonesen" big time!
You know you can find a "wiki" on practically anything...
I found this "wiki" on starting a community and it's full of a lot of great info, questions and directions on starting a new community...
http://wiki.ic.org/wiki/Category:Starting_a_Community |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 53
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 4:21 am: |
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"3. Well, I guess those are the main reasons,
but I also think a biblical community should honor the Sabbath, not love the things of the world, and be preparing for the second coming of the Messiah, and model the first church. "
Points are well made TS, but what if your belief includes all of these things but you do not believe in preparing for the second coming does not include the belief that the 144,000 is the seed of the Twelve Tribe community? Of all the teachings of the Twelve Tribes, that is the one I personally have the most trouble accepting.
Fatherofaking- I spent two days studying your post and came away with many new insites I hadn't thought about. I understood your connection. Thank you.
Jody- "The "Ideal" community already exists but all its members are asleep. "-- then that would make them less than ideal if they are asleep. I told my uncle of your response and he related to me that one of his teaching tours in Israel when at the Garden of Gethsamane, he was so impressed at the comparison of the Disciples when they slept while Christ was asleep was like the Church world today. They were willing to walk with him in front of some people but too weary or too drunk to pray with him at the most important time.
Nabashalam- I read your entire posts to my uncle on the phone. His main comments had to do with his "should it be based on needs". Right now he is gone purchasing 4 houses to help some homeless families, so for him "needs" means fulfilling "inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these...." Would you consider this as a need?
He says he plans to respond to these posts when he gets home Saturday or Sunday.
Sorry, right now I am his ears or eyes on here.
FYI-- I thank God he is 90 percent recovered according to his doctor reports. |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 4:26 am: |
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Correction: Misti says the houses in Lexington are already purchased, they are being remodeled. Sorry. |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 466
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:22 am: |
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unknownunsure
What are your beliefs about the 144,000? |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2280
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:53 am: |
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with only 3000 people worldwide it is possible but unlikely that they could produce 144,000 like minded people, let alone 144,000 12yr old males willing to go to their death. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1621
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 1:57 pm: |
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I want to know where they got the idea that "They will be the last to preach the Gospel on the earth and then they will be slain".
No where in Rev. does it hint to that except where it says they were "redeemed from the earth" as first fruits of the harvest. Does this mean they were killed? Or does it mean they were "taken from the field" as in "beamed up" and "transfigured "?
BTW The TT will use that verse, ignoring the mathematics, that ALL things are possible with God.
unknownunsure,
Ive got kin in Lexington! Is Randy going to put Truthseeker to work??? |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 56
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:02 pm: |
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I am leaning toward the teaching (opening a can of worms) that the 144,000 are the Jews who accept or recognise the Diety of the Christ they rejected until then. They realise the "Crucified One" was actually the Christ. |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 57
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
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Maybe my Uncle will send you a sermon he delivered a few years ago on the subject. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1622
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:09 pm: |
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I'd be honored! |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 58
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 1:22 am: |
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Just a symopsis: 12,000 from each tribe, they recognise the Diety and end up evangelizing, and receiving God's protection. I don't remember all of the Scripture references, but I do remember the importance of them being virgin men. I found it interesting. Oh, by the way he refers to this as a hypothesis, not a sermon. LOL He told me he has read over 50 different translation or interpretations of the Scriptures in Revelation concerning this subject.
|
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 467
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 199.76.157.237
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 3:54 pm: |
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unknownunsure,
I may be wrong about this, but aren't the "jews" from the tribe of Judah only? If so, that leaves 12,000 from 11 other tribes, right?
What about the 10 lost tribes? How would anyone know if they were physical descendents of Israel(Jacob), or not? |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 59
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 4:29 pm: |
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Revelation 7:2- 8
" 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
KJV |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 60
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 4:31 pm: |
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Interesting question for Bible scholars out there.. where is the Tribe of Dan? |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 468
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 199.76.157.237
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 5:22 pm: |
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unknownunsure,
I'm no bible scholar, but I found the information at wikipedia informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite
What sort of conflicts do you have specifically with the beliefs of the twelve tribes about the 144,000? |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 469
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 199.76.157.237
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 5:27 pm: |
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Here is another on the lost ten tribes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 5:34 pm: |
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I am not in conflict with their teachings, just unsure and studying further to see if their is validity in it. I won't criticize anything I am unsure about. They have some valid points that seem rasonable, but I am praying about to see if I am at peace with.
I believe the Gentiles were offered salvation due to the rejection of Christ by the Jewsish people. Therefore if the Jewish people continue to reject His Diety and be unwilling to be the New Israel, would He find someone else and could it be from the Gentiles (a group like the Twelve Tribes or the Twelve Tribes themselves) who are willing to be obedient... possible.... and what I am praying about.
|
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 62
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 5:51 pm: |
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If I determine or believe that the Twelve tribes are the chosen to fulfill this prophesy, would I be willing to give up all and join them. Absolutely, without any hesitation. I just want to do the Will of the Father and have my life totally submitted to Him. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1627
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 6:36 pm: |
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These should get your head spinning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replacement_theology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000 |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 470
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 12:50 am: |
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unknownunsure,
Well, I think for the twelve tribes to be a complete nation, the tribe of Judah, or the jews, would have to be included. There are some prophesies about it. Let's see, I guess I should pull it up so I can remember what I'm talking about, and if it even makes sense...
ok, this is the one that comes to mind,
Ezekiel 37:19
say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Josephwhich is in Ephraim's handand of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'
Also, Romans 11, especially...
25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,
The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.
So, I quess my question is, does God save the gentiles, and thus they become part of Israel?
The following verses would lead one to believe that is the case.
Romans 11:23-24
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Do you think there will be a rapture of gentile believers before the 144,000 are established? |
unknownunsure
Member
Username: unknownunsure
Post Number: 63
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 3:20 am: |
|
"Do you think there will be a rapture of gentile believers before the 144,000 are established?"
Yes |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2289
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 8:25 am: |
|
the real question is not who are the TT and what is going to happen in the end days.
the real question is whether jesus actually rose from the dead, or if it is just a story designed to tell us who we really are.
the death burial and resurrection is a common theme in what many call the "pagan" religions.
this understanding existed long before jesus ever came on the scene.
not only that, people report having the same conversion experiences (the results are the same, the ritual is different)in all sorts of circumstance.
knowing if the resurrection is true is the key to understanding all of it.
the rapture the 144,000, the number 666, etc., are not what christians think they are if the NT is not to be taken literally.
i never have been able to understand how one verse in a paragraph can be interpreted literally and the next interpreted figuratively. |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 471
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 8:33 am: |
|
unknownunsue,
What makes you believe so? |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 472
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 8:40 am: |
|
What do you think, FOAK?
Do you believe the resurrection of Yahshua is true?
I think you are right that knowing so is key to understanding it all. |
jodymcgrody
Junior Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.75
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 9:23 am: |
|
Myself, I no longer view the bible in literal terms as I once did. It hasn't changed my belief that there is a God, but it has definitely freed me from the constraints and controls of organized and even disorganized religion.
Any time there's a discussion of a community that involves a set of beliefs with (possibly) no room to question or challenge the validity of those beliefs I think about Giordano Bruno http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno.
I learned about him from reading more about the Catholic church, which I originally belonged to. The defenders of Christ burned him alive to protect the faith/maintain the status quo. Reading about it added a degree of pallor to my romantic view of Catholicism. That was just a few months ago by the way, just for perspective.
So clearly any required adherence to a dogma or set of unchallengeable beliefs wouldn't qualify as an ideal community. As human beings we need structure to survive, but freedom to grow. Structure gets the dishes washed, freedom lets people speak and grow intellectually and not have to fear chastisement, or banishment, for thinking outside the box.
Consensus decision-making I think would be a fundamental aspect. Stand up and make a valid argument, then let the group decide. Sort of like how we thought the community was supposed to operate, and how we implied to the public that it was. But thats a separate topic and more of a rant.
My previous post was just after watching the movie "Excalibur" (which I really like, I dig Wagner). When Parsifal finally finds the grail (during a near death experience) it turns out that what Arthur really needed was already inside of him, he had just forgotten who he was. Hence the ideal community already exists but we've 'forgotten' who we are. We are blinded by our own fears, lusts, and prejudices and caught in an illusion of our own making; resulting in a world full of war, starvation, and destruction (just to start off the list).
So, yes, I believe the ideal community already does exist, but its members are asleep. Like Merlin in the catacombs, we are under a spell of our own making.
JRL |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 1:12 pm: |
|
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/003.htm |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2292
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 1:13 pm: |
|
TS,
i am not sure what to think about the resurrection.
it seems to me that a lot of the bible stories were written using real people and places and in some cases, even real events.
i do not think however that they were ever intended to be used as historical documents.
this is how people prove the literal resurrection.
they say that the NT manuscripts can be read as reliable historical documents.
i would accept that idea if there was confirmation of this event written by secular historians.
jesus life and even crucifixion is documented but the resurrection is strangely missing.
an argument from silence is not very strong in most cases.
in this case however, why mention his life and way of death and not his resurrection?
the literal interpretation of the bible does not seem to fit with human experience.
the conversion experience is in every culture and religion. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 1:46 pm: |
|
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2293
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 1:52 pm: |
|
thanks for the link naba. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1634
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 1:57 pm: |
|
Your quite welcome! |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2294
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:56 pm: |
|
he seems to be an interesting character.
i think he may be right about the resurrection theme being in the egyption myths.
there seems to be some evidence of this.
i do not read hieroglyph.
i am trying to find the most reputable sources i can and then decide from there what i think.
i think the theme is ubiquitous.
it is everywhere.
everything from the movement of the sun to the death of a seed has this theme in it.
it seems to be a secret in plain sight.
life itself seems to be teaching us a spiritual lesson.
something that explains the same theme in so many unrelated myths and cultures.
it is the same death, burial and resurrection theme because it is the natural rhythm of life. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1637
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 7:06 pm: |
|
How about we get this thread back on track.
After hearing from a few folks and their inputs,
I would like to hear from Randy about his thoughts on starting a community... |
randyspenser
Intermediate Member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 306
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 2:42 am: |
|
Wow, a lot talked about on these threads while I was gone. I had a very productive time away and happy with the results.
People that were homeless now have homes and jobs. I thank God for Blessing these people and giving them another chance.
I have fully formulated plans for my family and others. Next week we will be contacting some people who may wish to have about 1,000 acres to farm and minister to others. They aren't aware of this yet, but I will be inviting them for a visit. This way I can retire.
A large farm was purchased in Oklahoma to set up a place where people who are in need and want to share can live.
Other things took place which I will talking to some about later, but right now, I'm exhausted.
Please keep us in prayer that we may do the WIll of the Father.
note: I'm somewhat glad I wasn't on here to hear some of the sparring. I'm have by nature a very peaceful nature. 
I will go through the list of everypme who posted over the last week and include you in my prayers tonite. |
whereto2
Junior Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.244.58.75
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 12:41 pm: |
|
sounds to me you are doing your own will... |
randyspenser
Intermediate Member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 307
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 1:25 pm: |
|
That's why it would be foolish and counter-productive for you to make assumptions. You have no idea in what direction God may be leading. |
whereto2
Junior Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.244.58.75
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 2:10 pm: |
|
hardly an assumption...
the commonwealth of israel is the living witness of gods leading...
Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
this word is living in the commonwealth of israel...
i do not see how your work is in submission to anyone who has rule over you... i dont see anyone who has to give an account to these actions but yourself... |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1648
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 2:30 pm: |
|
Dear Yoneq,
"i do not see how your work is in submission to anyone who has rule over you... i dont see anyone who has to give an account to these actions but yourself..."
signed:whereto2 |
randyspenser
Intermediate Member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 308
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 3:50 pm: |
|
Whereto2, you have no ideas of the structure of what we do as far as accountability. I am answerable to several people and more importantly, my accountability is to- God |
randyspenser
Intermediate Member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 309
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 4:04 pm: |
|
I am not sure why you are chosing to pick arguements. I am not one who is hostile toward the Twelve Tribes. I am tryig to be helpful to them when I can. |
whereto2
Junior Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.244.58.75
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 4:15 pm: |
|
you blind fool... anyone in the commonwealth of israel can write those words , speak those words , share those words, and live those very words written as they are...
apostolic words they are... written by an apostle... these are the words of the elect...
Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
yet you accuse everyone who stands in your proud path to divert from the truth....
correct your path... repent...
as for the structure randy has built with his own hands... i need not be aware of it... as it too serves only to divert from the truth.... |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 4:47 pm: |
|
Why are people mean?
Here's the short answer: They're hurt.
Here's the long answer: They're really hurt. At some point, somebodytheir parents, their lovers, Lady Luckdid them dirty. They were crushed. And they're still afraid the pain will never stop, or that it will happen again.
I've just described every single person living on planet Earth.
The fact is that we've all been hurt, and we're all wounded, but not all of us are mean.
Why not?
Because some people realize that their history of suffering can be a hero's saga rather than a victim's whine, depending on how they "write" it.
I should know! I've "written" both!
Hopefully I'm done whining...
The moment we begin tolerating meanness, in ourselves or others, we are using our authorial power in the service of wrongdoing.
We all have both the capacity and the obligation to do better. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1651
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 4:53 pm: |
|
Whereto2,
Who do YOU serve? |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2312
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:07 pm: |
|
"everybody's got to serve somebody"
Bob Dylan |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 56
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.148.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Shalom,Shalom! Which means perfect peace! |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 57
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.148.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 6:03 pm: |
|
Ideal community? I truly wonder IF a better option would be a "secular" community? |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 6:38 pm: |
|
Why not a combination of both?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism
whereto2,
Remember these Apostolic words...
"Anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the High Court. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
and I ask you again...
Who do you serve? |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1653
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Randy!
That is excellent news! Where in Oklahoma?
ps... GET SOME REST!!!! |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.149.46
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 9:49 pm: |
|
Believe it or not I lived in Okmulgee for 2 years...I attended a trade school and unfortunately majored in.... the 80's. |
whereto2
Junior Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.244.159.3
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:06 am: |
|
i do not call you brother |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 481
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:25 am: |
|
whereto2,
Are you going to join the twelve tribes?
Randy and his family are seriously considering the twelve tribe's way of life, and you are treating them as if you feel the same way about them as you do ex-members. Do you see where you are doing your own will too? We all are!
Is that wrong? It seems right to us, doesn't it?
What is God's will anyway?
Who can know His will?
Think about it!
Please, find a new song, this one is depressing,
let's move on. What do you say? |
whereto2
Junior Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.244.159.3
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:30 am: |
|
i am not interested in your diversions from the truth |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 482
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:40 am: |
|
blind fool...I just read that,
well, if it is worse to claim to see,
then I'd rather be blind.
Whereto2, our guilt remains,
we are the fools if we fool ourselves.
We should come clean! |
truth_seeker
Intermediate Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 483
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:54 am: |
|
Truth is Yahshua.
Is that is why you come here?
Have you notice David Derush doesn't post here anymore?
Truth isn't here.
So, factnet is a diversion from the truth.
What ARE you interested in?
It's not here! |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 2:44 am: |
|
So are you saying David Derush is the truth?
It sure reads like that!
And if the truth isnt here, what would a truth seeker be here for?
Or were you being facetious?
Kinda hard to tell with no body language or speech inflections... |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 2:47 am: |
|
whereto2,
If you dont call us brother, you must be "brotherless"!
Because the TT sure as heck don't call YOU brother! |
jodymcgrody
Junior Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 69.19.14.40
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 11:57 pm: |
|
After reading some of your posts whereto2 I've come to this conclusion:
>Your probably between 14 and 16 years old
>Your probably in the community somewhere
>You have absolutely and undeniably no clue as to what your talking about
Peace Out,
JRL |
whereto2
Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.244.56.157
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 1:24 am: |
|
more accusations and diversions... |
lets_be_real
New member
Username: lets_be_real
Post Number: 14
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 71.98.157.3
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 5:40 am: |
|
He's what we called in the community, an irritant.Our Master said forgive them for they don't know what there doing. In this case I would say forgive him it's clear he doesn't know what he's talking about. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1666
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 8:20 am: |
|
Lets_be_real,
I have a theory on whereto2... They are most likely someone similar to you!
They left the community because of certain reasons and are planning to return sometime in the future.
The thing is, unlike yourself, they dont have the "heart" that the community truly needs. Just like what the fella from the Vine House days spoke about...
"If there is grace in the TT community, it is due more to the fact that found within it are many, like yourselves, that are very loving, caring and graceful believers who had attempted to live out their faith in that community. Grace happens in spite of the legalism of the leadership. But grace doesn't stop because you left TT. You can't bottle up grace. It is there because it's in your hearts."
Now a thought came to me that either you(LBR) or Whereto2 is Stewart Lavin(Shalom). I thought it might be you because you live very near to where Shalom had his book published.(but according to you, you are married, Shalom is not) I also thought whereto2 could be him because of his apologetic nature towards the TT(if whereto2 is a he)and also that thay live in Jersey right next to NYC and they did have an IP in Long Island awhile back.(both Shaloms old stompin grounds)
But as whereto2 will say, its all speculation...
So..."Will the REAL Stewart Lavin please stand up!". |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 8:26 am: |
|
I also appreciated what the Vine House fella said here...
". . The Law of TT says: you can have God and the people of GOd only within the confines of our community; and our community demands lots of conformity. This goes against everything I was ever taught by Gene Spriggs in the early 70s. The new wineskin of The Vine House/Light Brigade has become an old wineskin. But as I have written previously: the old wineskins never see themselves as "old"; in their mind, they are still the "new wine" of the Spirit. In their business of protecting their spiritual turf, they've lost touch with the fact that the spirit of love and grace has left them. What's left is just the maintenance of a big, and outwardly impressive, spiritual plant. It has gone from being a true spiritual ministry to just a human business. I use chop sticks sometimes when I am eating sushi. I doubt their use, or the use of Hebrew names, or pony tails on men, or hippie skirts, have anything to do w/ God's grace or God's community. Actually, this little chat site is more of a community of grace, a fellowship of love and support, a real community of the Holy Spirit, than many places. . . but obviously, from the kind support and honesty with which many have found on this site, you get to experience GOd's grace from the care of others. We share with one another the grace in our own hearts." |
lets_be_real
New member
Username: lets_be_real
Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 71.98.157.3
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 9:07 am: |
|
I,m not Shalom but you do know me, and we reminded people of eachother in the community. As far as where 2. I think he is someone who has visited saw what we saw and now feels he has the ammunition to judge everyone else. But lacks the understanding of the things we experienced. I still pray that our Fathers will will be done and the truth revealed. There are many sincere people in the community. I had many friends. |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2326
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
|
There are many sincere people in the community. I had many friends.
this has always been my sentiment as well.
i think most leave feeling that way. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 5:45 pm: |
|
LBR....Now I'm intrigued!
Email me! I have some questions for you about Randy Spensers new community...
Your identity will be kept strictly confidential... Scouts honor!
nabashalam@yahoo.com |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.147.84
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 11:29 pm: |
|
"IDEAL COMMUNITY "You have got be kiddin' me! What ever is near by IS what you should start with! MAYBE Mr. Spencer has a little bit extra to work with!!but it doesn't really matter! I'm sorry but thre chard. wine is running out.. I honestly apologize if I have offended ANYONE!!! TQ |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.147.84
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 11:39 pm: |
|
Nab you have really "pulled" a few of us along on this stupid/but really important forum! YOU have honestly gone thru a maze of "sh-t" and seem to be coming out on the positive end of "recieving"! PEACE ON BRO!! |
jodymcgrody
Junior Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 71.162.78.19
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 7:27 pm: |
|
I like this thread, so even though I don't have anything of any great depth to contribute, I'm going to go ahead and post/rant just to do so.
Purpose is definitely the glue that binds a group of people together, but what seems to have happened in the Community is that the cart ended up in front of the horse. The Community became the purpose rather than being one of it's logical outcomes.
To me the purpose is pretty obvious, there's something wrong with the World, with the Human race, and I'd rather be on the side that's actually trying to find a solution. I think if you parsed down the concept to its most fundamental level you'd find a solid purpose. Instead of basing a lifestyle on a theology why not let the theology evolve naturally out of seeking the answer to the problem?
Instead of starting out with a fixed theology start out with the assumption that there is an answer and that it can be found. Start out with the intention of finding a solution and being open to the possibility that "God" will assist as necessary. Then base the whole thing not on revelations but on what actually works. Practical reality. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1687
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 7:34 pm: |
|
AMEN JODY!!!
"Practical reality"! and the only practical and real thing is LOVE!!! Everything else will fall into place! |
jodymcgrody
Junior Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 71.162.78.19
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:01 pm: |
|
Facing the reality of the World and looking for a real solution. That would be the ideal community to me. I've started to question the whole theology that mankind needs forgiveness. I don't see people walking around carrying bags of guilt. What I see are people who don't know who they are, and subsequently act and treat others with the same ignorance. And this was just as prevalent in the Community as it was in any other place that I've been.
I've also had experiences that have proven to me beyond any reasonable doubt that there is a "God" and that faith isn't attached to any particular theology. Theology is almost in direct contravention to faith, substituting mental gymnastics that try to remove the absurdity of faith and instead render it as something intellectually sanitary and utterly useless in terms of the real and not-so-sanitary World.
In this light the Community is just another distraction from the real problem. Another theology that ignores reality and gives people a delusion to buy into. Another social pep rally that stirs the emotions of its followers but produces no substantial changes in them (contrary to those who boisterously claim that they themselves are changed, even while their brethren wouldn't say for the better) . Another theological dogmatic set of crutches to allow people to avoid the embarrassing absurdity of faith in something intangible and spontaneous. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:50 pm: |
|
I also have had undisputable experiences. And I agree God is so much larger then we can fathom and not confined to manmade theologies.
Now back to a "practical" modern day community...
Jody, What would be the purpose, the common goal that would serve as mortar? Can you put it in common language? |
jodymcgrody
Junior Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 71.162.78.19
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:38 pm: |
|
I was kind of hoping others would fill in the details on this. To me the goal is remembering who we are. That the reason we have a world so far off center is that something fundamental has been "forgotten" or occluded in our minds. We draw lines on a map and then kill each other over those lines, as if they were real. We have bloated wealth and starving children on the same planet. Doesn't that sound like maybe we're missing some important aspect of being Human? And everywhere we look there's a microcosm of this happening right in front of us.
So my goal would be to wake up. To grasp what it is to be a Human Being and to see others in the same light, without all the filters in place. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:16 pm: |
|
"All This Time"
-Sting
I looked out across
The river today
I saw a city in the fog and an old church tower
Where the seagulls play
I saw the sad shire horses walking home
In the sodium light
I saw two priests on the ferry
October geese on a cold winter's night
And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly to the sea
Two priests came round our house tonight
One young, one old, to offer prayers for the dying
To serve the final rite
One to learn, one to teach
Which was the cold wind blows
Fussing and flapping in priestly black
Like a murder of crows
And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly to the sea
If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
And I'd bury the old man,
I'd bury him at sea
Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
Better to be poor than a fat man in the eye of a needle
And as these words were spoken I swore I hear
The old man laughing
'What good is a used up world and how could it be
Worth having'
And all this time the river flowed
Endlessly like a silent tear
And all this time the river flowed
Father, if Jesus exists,
Then how come he never lived here
The teachers told us, the Romans built this place
They built a wall and a temple, an edge of the empire
Garrison town,
They lived and they died, they prayed to their gods
But the stone gods did not make a sound
And their empire crumbled, 'til all that was left
Were the stones the workmen found
And all this time the river flowed
In the falling light of a northern sun
If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
Men go crazy in congregations
But they only get better
One by one
One by one... |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:40 pm: |
|
But then again we need to help(heal)others as we help(heal)ourselves in doing so...
First, as a child, it seems like the entire world is there for you and you rush to drink from its every cup, sometimes wondering to yourself how anything could ever be more fun.
Then, as you grow older, if you're observant, you realize much of what you enjoy was made possible by the contributions, work, and labor of those who came before you, and you're taken aback, disappointed even , because with maturity you can now see cracks in the façades, imperfections in the details, and 10,000 ways it could have all been done better.
At which point, folks typically choose one of two paths: Spend a lifetime lamenting how far from perfect things are. Or, to one degree or another, roll up their sleeves and pitch in.
And should they choose the latter with gusto, they will come to know, to the core of their sacred being, that the differences they might make in the world cannot be made by another. And then they will discover the answer to their often-wondered childhood question.... That the most fun one can have in time and space comes from making such a difference, and that the joy derived from serving is 10,000 times that of being served. |
intransition
Member
Username: intransition
Post Number: 52
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 69.95.176.117
| | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 2:49 pm: |
|
I had a situation occur this past week that brought to mind some of the unresolved issues my wife and I had in the community. Some friends of ours, that we are working on a project with, made some decisions that greatly affected us. As we related the sitution to another friend, they commented on how our need for cooperation and respect was obviousy nor considered.
That, "our need for cooperation and respect" has been on the forefront of my mind all week. It brought up how that is at the core of a lot of decision making in the TT. A fundamental need in all of us is ignored. I think it is the feelings related to these needs that most ex-menmbers can relate to.
So I thought about this thread. For an ideal community to exist, there needs to be a communication and decision making process in place that assures these fundamental needs in all members. The cohousing movement has used consensus but there are real problems with that too. Some of these communities are now using a model of governance callaed sociocracy, which seems to have some promise. Here is a link for anyone interested: http://www.sociocracy.info/.
So, communication and decisionmaking must be at the foundation of community development. And, along with that, ways of dealing with our unresolved conflicts and resulting emotional baggage, that fuels our comunication and decisionmaking, must be considered. |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 81
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.146.86
| | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 4:42 pm: |
|
Naba your last post was awesome! "Community" is not the answer but loosing self or sacrifising, so others can be together !!!Life is tough and we all need is to move foward and LOVE, the way YHVH told us in the Torah!!! TQ |
jodymcgrody
Junior Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 193.200.150.26
| | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 9:59 pm: |
|
Reading the description on the Sociocracy site I can't help but think that we Human Beings keep trying to construct a better set of rules that will somehow absolve us of our personal responsibility to change. We've been doing this at least since the days of Hammurabi and there hasn't been a dogma or law invented yet that people couldn't find a way to manipulate for their own selfish ends, even while justifying their actions as necessary and even commendable.
We keep looking for the answer outside of ourselves when the source of the problem lies within, buried inside a tangled forest of beliefs that we've succumbed to. Beliefs passed on from generation to generation, reinforced over and over again as being reality when in truth they have no real substance whatsoever. Concepts and ideas that create a mental fantasy world of scarce resources where manipulation and dishonesty are the norm.
We need to wake up and begin to see through the fog, see through the delusions that we use as crutches to avoid the reality of just how off center we really are. We are Human Beings living in imaginary mental playgrounds where it's acceptable to ignore our fellow Human Beings in need. Our minds are a Gordions Knot of mental constructs with no hope of ever being untangled. And at the center is who we really are.
If there was a first church as described in the book of Acts, it would have been people who were learning how to function from this core of their being. And this would explain why they would be such a threat to both the Jewish Priest caste and the Roman Empire. Both only mental constructs that would cease to have meaning to a world full of Human Beings with their eyes open.
"And should they choose the latter with gusto, they will come to know, to the core of their sacred being, that the differences they might make in the world cannot be made by another. And then they will discover the answer to their often-wondered childhood question.... That the most fun one can have in time and space comes from making such a difference, and that the joy derived from serving is 10,000 times that of being served." Per Nabashalam.
JRL
(Message edited by jodymcgrody on October 14, 2007) |
randyspenser
Intermediate Member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 312
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 11:35 pm: |
|
In reference to what is needed in an ideal community:
First issue- trust of the brothers:
There is one issue missing in most communities that make them go from common life of love to cultish... that issue is trust. I have noticed in nearly all the different types of communities I have researched, that they all claim a love and brotherhood where they will lay down their lives for one another. I think they really believe they are doing that. Is trust voluntary or imposed. We should be answerable to one another, but we shouldn't have the right to sneak around and spy on one another or encourage others to spy on each other. That isn't trust or what the Scriptures teach about accountability.
If I am in partnership with my brother and find I am wrong or he sees me straying, we should talk about it and handle it in a manner of love and forgiveness. How can we "spy" on each other and say there is trust?
No matter what we feel about the lives described in Acts that many use for an example, please show me where lack of trust was part of the equation. This is a problem I see in nearly EVERY community especially those based on Faith. Laying down ones life for a brother should be a demonstration of freedom, not bondage; It should be with love, not oppression.
I haven't lived in the Twelve Tribe communities so I don't know exactly what happens there. I am speaking of most communities I have seen with any group.
**** Other observations as time permits***** |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 24.183.98.4
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 1:57 pm: |
|
Randy... So it can be said there can be trust or lack there of wether it is a secular or religious community, and it has nothing to do with beliefs, faith or lack thereof...correct?
Trust has been described as "the state of readiness for unguarded interaction with someone or something." Which must be the precursor to feeling able to rely upon a person, cooperating with and experiencing teamwork with a group,
taking thoughtful risks, and experiencing believable communication.
So how is this trust developed? It just doesnt happen! Especially in starting a community with people who dont know each other. Track records must be established with words and actions.
Trust is a prediction of reliance on an action, based on what a party knows about the other party. Trust is is a measure of belief in the honesty, benevolence and competence of the other party.
Blind faith/trust is just outright stupid... |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2455
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 2:22 pm: |
|
i would think there would need to be a set of ideals that all were expected to commit to in order for that kind of trust to be established quickly.
any thing other than that is just foolishness.
there has to be a foundation.
what is it going to be built on? |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1736
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 24.183.98.4
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 2:30 pm: |
|
Randy,
If you were to start a community, what part would faith or religious orientation play?
Would a common path be imperative for membership?
If not, do you see a potential problem with cliques and divisions forming? Us and them?
One more question, of the following, which one would you identify yourself as?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
If none of those, could you tell us the major tenements of your faith?
I myself would lean to this...
Christian Humanist |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2457
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 2:53 pm: |
|
that is quite a list of fellow christian humanists you have there naba.
kierkagard
erasmus
t.s.elliiot.
i am impressed.
i had never even heard of such a thing as a christian humanist.
i don't think i have nailed down a place to fit into.
i kind of like who i am without a label.
i am who i am.
free.
you see this way i can serve everyone.
that is freedom. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1737
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 24.183.98.4
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 3:11 pm: |
|
Labels do not limit servitude...
and I didnt say I "fit" anywhere...
Funny/strange how you used the expression "nailed down"...
I think thats already been done!
I really wouldnt classify myself as in the typical definition of a "Christian".
I just recognize "truths" when I see them and the Holy Book of the "Christians" is full of truths...but so are other "Holy Books"...
The tough part is "walking them out"... |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2458
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 3:26 pm: |
|
any position will draw opposition. |
randyspenser
Intermediate Member
Username: randyspenser
Post Number: 313
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.49.198.243
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 3:43 pm: |
|
Naba... noone said blind faith... yes trust is earned... encouraging spying is my issue. That happens in many communities. I think that could cause problems and lead to "control" issues. I don't think people should be controlled where they have no ability to think for themselves.
A common path is necessary. It could be based on Faith or on common needs. Depends on what people are wishing to accomplish with the community.
If the common path is helping others, then could not different beliefs exist without division? I won't say that is the direction I would go, but I don't nessarily feel diversity in beliefs would be a huge issue if handled properly. |
heartstar12
New member
Username: heartstar12
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 71.255.38.243
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 5:56 pm: |
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Communal living is a waste of time, unless people feel like they need to be punished and be slaves. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1738
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 24.183.98.4
| | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 7:23 pm: |
|
Randy,
I wasnt addressing anything you said when I made a statement about blind obedience. Sorry you took it that way. I said that because thats what the TT DEMANDS!
"If I am in partnership with my brother and find I am wrong or he sees me straying, we should talk about it and handle it in a manner of love and forgiveness."
Now if when confronting someone on their "straying", accusations of "spying" could fly! Thats just a fact. Now if it were me, I would be thankful for someone checking me or gently asking me how I felt about my actions or lack of action. I might not know I was straying and even if I knew I was, I might need help to get back on the right path.
It really all depends on how you approach someone. Do you come over the top of them with a heavy hand of accusation, judgement and punishment or do you come from "underneath them with a humble heart and helping hand? just as you said, you must "handle it in a manner of love and forgiveness."
Also that anything can be "handled properly". WWYD?
"I won't say that is the direction I would go."
So Randy, what direction would you go?
I just read an old email you sent me 2 years ago about possibly starting a "Retreat Farm" for those exiting cultic groups or just folks needing help that are lost and searching.
The thing is Randy, people, men, women and children coming out of these groups need a safe place to rest, heal, unwind and regroup. The last thing they need is another "doctrine" shoved down their throat. Like out of the frying pan into the fire.
When I was at Bob Pardons place, Meadowhaven, the spirituality portion of the program was a small part in the healing process and it was strictly on a individual personal need basis. Even though Bob is an ordained minister, he pushes nothing but lets you know he is there for you in any capacity.
People should and will be drawn to lived out faith and love in action, not pushed into a whitewashed tomb.
The only thing lacking at Meadowhaven is that their facility is not set up to receive families. It was a nursing home and still has that "institution" feel to it. That is one thing a community does not WANT or SHOULD be! It should be a village! For a lack of a better word, a TRIBE! A town with real houses and real families helping each other live life together, for each other! Not a barracks or dormitory or compound full of inmates with guards and trustees. BTW Thats one thing Rose Creek Village got right. There problem is that they allowed it to get too big, lost its intimacy, and became a "institution" just because of shear numbers and logistics. They are even too big to have a common meal together.
heartstar12, Welcome to the board! Believe it or not, there are communities that arent "work camps" and actually function quite well without a "shared spiritual path". Ganas is such a one that I lived in for a year. So is East Wind
Theres more then one way to make it work...
"If you build it, they will come..." -Field of Dreams |
heartstar12
New member
Username: heartstar12
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 71.255.37.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 11:45 am: |
|
Hi, Yes I agree, I guess what I wanted to get at is that some people will never be happy living communally, because even though they believe it to be more ideal, it's not what they really want, and would rather live a more private, solitary life, or just with their immediate family, etc. I wish everyone the best who wishes to live in some form of community.
The Twelve Tribes really messed up my life, even though I think in some ways it is very ideal and beautiful. I know not all places are the same. I also lived at a Benedictine monastery and enjoyed that very much. And, at a vegan community. Both were much more balanced places. People were not sleep deficient and exhausted much of the time, and not under guilt and having to repent all the time. Thanks for your understanding. |
heartstar12
New member
Username: heartstar12
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 71.255.37.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 12:26 pm: |
|
Hi, I forgot something I wanted to say and that is that there is no such thing as an ideal community on Earth. All of human experience is tainted with the un-ideal, no matter where you go, how you set things up, or who you live with. But, for those who insist on finding th ideal, I wish them the best. I think the Buddists are closer to the truth in thinking that true happiness is found in desiring nothing, not even an ideal community. Happiness is be thankful for what you have, right now, where you are at. Maybe we are all at the ideal community right now, and need to search no further than our own hearts and gratitude. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1739
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 24.183.98.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 12:57 pm: |
|
"Maybe we are all at the ideal community right now, and need to search no further than our own hearts and gratitude."
Dont tell that to someone still in the TT!
But yes we as humans always look forward to something better, a better community, a better car, a better job, a better abode, a better partner and when we get these things they are fleeting pleasures, and we start looking forward to something even better! And the whole time we are not experiencing the NOW! We miss life completely because we are too busy looking into the future, and miss the present! Which is truly Gods PRESENT to us!!!
Carpe Diem!!! |
truth_seeker
Advanced Member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 506
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 2:44 pm: |
|
I suppose it all depends on how you define happiness, but I think it is worth while to consider that perhaps the search for happiness does not lead to the same place as the search for the meaning of life. In general, happiness is thought of as an emotion, and thus happiness can be fleeting and it can even be induced, where as true enduring joy persists in the presence of suffering and even greif. Therefore, if we find the meaning of life, we will inevitably find joy, but not necessarily a perpetual feeling of happiness.
It seems most will agree that fulfilling our experience as human beings depends upon how we relate with one another and give of ourselves, however there are different ideas about the ideal environment for the actualization of an optimal love. Never the less, if God is love, and we are created by God, then this must be what we were created for. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1740
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 24.183.98.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 3:18 pm: |
|
First, we must realize that happiness is in our hearts. The contentment, tolerance, wisdom, and faith in our hearts are the fountains of happiness inside us. Second, happiness lies in genuine affection and honor. Treating others with sincerity and integrity brings happiness. Third, happiness exists in friendships between the self and others. Nobody can live without friends for friendship provides support and good will throughout our lives. Fourth, happiness is in liberation. For, if we can see through the phenomena of the world, and be liberated from troubles and suffering, then happiness can be realized.
Money does not equal unhappiness; as long as we know how to make good use of it and do not let ourselves become enslaved by it, then money can bring happiness. Similarly, love can also bring happiness; but love needs to be pure and sublime and not selfish or tainted.
We should not only pursue the sensual pleasures of life: seeing beautiful things, hearing wonderful sounds, smelling fragrant scents, tasting delicious food, and feeling physical comforts. Such sensory happiness is only momentary and unrealistic. We should instead pursue the joy of non-attachment, meaning that we will not allow ourselves to become attached to the five senses. We should cultivate our mind without attachment to achieve true happiness. It is only when we have the truth and joy in our hearts, and discover the treasure that lies inside within us, that we are able to attain lasting happiness.
Life is difficult. Life is mysterious. Regardless of our planning, it is essentially unpredictable. For years, I had a sign on my bathroom mirror to remind me, daily, that "Life is what happens to you while you are making other plans." All the same, I keep spending time trying to fix up now so I'll be happier in the mythical future.
Suffering is what happens when we struggle with whatever our life experience is rather than accepting and opening to our experience with wise and compassionate response. From this point of view, there's a big difference between pain and suffering. Pain is inevitable; lives come with pain. Suffering is not inevitable. If suffering is what happens when we struggle with our experience because of our inability to accept it, then suffering is an optional extra.
"Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional." -Buddha |
sabbathkeeper
Member
Username: sabbathkeeper
Post Number: 82
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 64.24.177.109
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 10:07 pm: |
|
Shalom! |
heartstar12
New member
Username: heartstar12
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 75.95.39.114
| | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 3:00 am: |
|
Thank you for all the great response. It really helps me to consider these things from a positive place, where I don't feel locked up and shut down. Take care. |
