| Author | Message | ||
     joythruchrist Member Username: joythruchrist Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
One thing I have found over and over again in these discussions is that former members often, if not always, refer to the scriptures in their criticism of Indy teachings. They encourage those questioning to be like the Bereans to search the scriptures to see if the things they say are so. Most of those speaking in defense of the Indy teachings say, "Read the teachings, they're terrific!" but rarely, if ever, do they point to scripture and urge those questioning to check it out for themselves. They point often to men from the past such as Nee, Chambers, etc, but usually not to the infallible Word of God. As a follower of Christ, it is my belief that the scripture is the final authority. This requires accurate interpretation, and if Paul himself said to search the scriptures to see if the things he said were so, how much more so should we be searching the scriptures to see if the word of mike peters, or any other wind of doctrine, is so? I've been told by more than one former member that there is not the encouragement to get into the Word for themselves while in Indy, but the teaching tapes are the focus. joythruChrist@gmail.com | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
I do remember when my family members first joined CII there were several things they read(unknown to me at the time, some "old" and obscure) but as you said, I don't remember much of it being the Bible. I know there are many good books and teachers and writers and whatever, but if they don't point you back to the scriptures, you may not want to waste your time on them. But maybe some there think they are getting the scriptures since mike does seem to quote verses. But they don't always mean what he says they mean as some have found out once they went back and read it for themselves. something to ponder... | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.40.8 |
GREAT post, joythruChrist! It seems to be the theme on God's heart. I have been trying to post this since earlier today. But I will post it now and it goes with what you and gottaposter2 said. John17, I hope you will read the following post by graceisenough VERY carefully (especially beginning with “Some truths…”! We are told to examine EVERYTHING! If you were to take ten paces back and read Mike’s teachings or even Gene Edwards and really examine them, I think you will begin to see the error. I know this will be quite difficult when they are holding “utopia” out in their hands. But I think you have been snared by that which so many of us have because of the longing in our hearts to see Jesus glorified. But then, you begin to run after THAT teaching and it becomes your idol, so to speak and then you weigh everything, even truth through those thought processes and you become deceived. Remember Jesus WARNED…24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” I ask you most sincerely to take some time to ask God to make it very clear to you if Mike is misleading people. Then, guard your heart as to the answer. If you are SO convinced that this is right, you may interfere with their being a clear word from God. You may look for the “yes” no matter where it comes from rather than confirmation from the Lord. Besides, if you take some time away (if they allow that without it being "sin"), what have you to lose? You have the Lord Jesus! And if you notice at that point that when you are faced with a dilemma, if your first thoughts are an Indy teaching, a tape, something Mike or one of his adherents said, that should be a MAJOR RED FLAG, because then his teaching and word have elevated themselves above the Lord's. I began reading that “Crucified by Christians” book and what is it based on? It’s Gene Edwards and his opinion of things. He doesn’t even quote any scripture which 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; I mean, what is this… “Hear my words. Refusal to accept your crucifixion as wholly from the hand of God only means you were not crucified, you were just mistreated. Only when you accept that it came from God…only then is it a TRUE crucifixion. The crucifixion of a Christian comes from the hand of God, and God alone.” Show me where it speaks in the Bible about our “ ‘TRUE crucifixion’ as opposed to simply being ‘mistreated’ ”. “Among believers a true crucifixion has but one author.” (that’s the first I ever heard of this “true crucifixion” stuff, but he sure talks about it much. It’s like “oh, no! Now I need to go around figuring out if my “crucifixion” is “true” or not or if what I just suffered is merely “mistreatment”! What IS the believers “crucifixion”…Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. | ||
| speakingtruth New member Username: speakingtruth Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
This is a response to a post from: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/33069.html?1189305125#POST444224 However, many of the things shared by Indy are NOT new. Tozer, Nee, Wesley, Finney, Bonhoffer, O Chambers, Ravenhill, P Washer, etc, and those "doctrines" are supported by numerous churches everywhere with many different denominations. This is where some of the greatest deception in the CII type of group lies. My questions are: 1) Do any of these people listed personally endorse anything at all coming from Mike Peters? Certainly not those that are dead and I would venture to say it is extremely unlikely or definitely not so otherwise. 2) What kind of self-endorsement is it to extract some of what other popular Christian leaders have written or said and take parts from it, then twist the ideas just enough to fit Mike Peters perversions and attempt to make it an endorsement? All other cults -who call themselves Christian- will take God’s own words directly from the Scriptures and pull certain segments and then twist them to fit their own perverted ideas which lead others astray because they get to say “it is Scripture”. The Devil himself used Scripture to try to mislead even Christ. And if Jesus was "tempted” (Mt4,Heb 2:8,4:14) by this -though He never fell for it- how much more should we as Christ’s followers be wary of this tactic and know that Christ will aid us past the lies? Always talking about “motives” in CII, what is MP’s motive in using respected teachers to back their ways? It would seems to me that this is like some actor’s repertoire using other‘s names and quotes to get attention from unwary Christians as he displays his own ideas before others. And those who will not take the time and give their own heart personally to seeking Jesus in ALL of the Scriptures -which testify of Him ONLY in their FULL balance- will fall for a man whom they can see with their physical eyes just as the Israelite fell for the golden calf in the their wilderness time. Jesus can be seen -in part- through His True Church. But the Church is NOT the Head for Jesus ALONE is the Head and we each individually must go to Him directly through His Word to truly know Him without error from other very fallible humans standing in the way. For EVERY Christian has shortcomings including all leaders and therefore the ONLY ONE we can trust is the One designated by the TRUE “Father” Himself as the ONLY “Mediator between God and man” which is the Man Jesus Christ our High Priest. I can recall seeing at least one video of a Keith Green teaching while I was in the CII group at David F‘s apartment. I also recall hearing a David Wilkerson tape as played for the whole group to hear in another place. And I recall a prayer from David F. which was sure to prepare you to accept only what fell in line with the Mike Peters doctrines. Whatever ideas could not be manipulated to fit their own perversions was covered by the “it is of the flesh” type of statements regarding the teachings of people like Keith Green or David Wilkerson. I do believe the same can be said of CII regarding the other known respected teachers as well. Yet it is my view -and likely many others here now- that Mike Peters is truly the one who is walking in the flesh with Scripture and calling people to "another Jesus" other than that which Paul preached. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.40.8 |
Here is the post by graceisenough... http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/30328.html How to join ALLATHISFEET Church graceisenough New member Username: graceisenough Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 71.99.61.188 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 3:03 pm: I am so heartbroken over this testimony. When will is end? I am mostly heartbroken for this young wife who like the real Eve in Genesis was created as a helpmeet out of the rib of Adam. Made to be special companions together, this young wife is being told that the way God made her is sin. Every young wife/mother to be needs to prepare for birth, and spend alone time with her husband. THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE!!! I am so sad over the dividing of marriages. God can heal this, I can testify. But the pain that she is feeling cuts me to the heart. This testimony is similar to many others from different people and different places who don't know each other. Let this be a wake-up call to those reading this who are still involved. May God give you eyes to see. Some truths about the state of organized religion or a revolutionary way to look at different expressions of Christ's body are not enough for us to ignore the red flags and blaring destruction caused by this group and it's teachings. I have been and I have seen others who are so zealous over a new revelation that they become blind to the obvious contradictions and false teachings that are twisted in. Remember, there is always a bit of truth mixed in with huge deception. Don't always listen to the words they may say but catch the essence of the heart. Encouraging someone to repent, take up the cross, or give up all for Christ is all part of the Christian's journey but be very careful about the context in which these things are said. For this group these are "catch phrases" attached to obeying one of their rules of MAN (Mike Peters). This is also very common for cults, they use biblical terms and lingo mixed with false doctrines. Most JW's say they are living for God's kingdom, too. We have to be so discerning when it comes to what I call bible based cults (CII) because the subtleties are sometimes hard to recognize until it's too late. This woman who posted from FL has done the best thing in my opinion. She has not ignored her initial red flags. I am so thankful for her heart and the wisdom God's given her that she cannot ignore! I pray for the freedom of this young couple. enelson8735@yahoo.com | ||
| speakingtruth New member Username: speakingtruth Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
As john17 said: “many of the things shared by Indy are NOT new”. True! But they are subtly or severely twisted just as the Scriptures are perverted to fit the controlling ideas perpetrated in CII! I am sorry I have to declare it, but such statements which try to endorse CII are ABSOLUTE WHITE WASH!!! This is what we have with the Mike Peters doctrines. “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. (John 5:39) “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,” (1Tim2:5) 1) We can not truly Know Jesus without ALL Scriptures. 2) We can not truly Know the Scriptures without going directly to Jesus ALONE through Scripture!!! 3) Only in practicing the first two with all of your heart and consistently can we then clearly see how Christ is working through His Church and know our part in His Body. Put the knowing of some other Jesus through a man or a group before 1 and 2 and you will be deceived. Period! denny.elslager@gmail.com | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
I do remember when my family members first joined CII there were several things they read(unknown to me at the time, some "old" and obscure) but as you said, I don't remember much of it being the Bible. I know there are many good books and teachers and writers and whatever, but if they don't point you back to the scriptures, you may not want to waste your time on them. But maybe some there think they are getting the scriptures since mike does seem to quote verses. But they don't always mean what he says they mean as some have found out once they went back and read it for themselves. something to ponder... | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.40.8 |
One more thing. I would like to encourage you to listen to today’s broadcast of Moody Church Hour (Sept. 9, 2007--The Book we Trust) I know that it will be difficult for those accustomed to Mike’s teaching to get past the organ music, the fact that his picture has a suit coat and tie, he “attends church” and is called “pastor”…BUT God does not look on the externals, but he looks at the heart and to his own Master he stands or falls. http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Moody_Church_Hour/archives.asp?bcd=2007-9-9 Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times. Psalm 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to your Word. Psalm 119:11 Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You. Psalm 119:16 I shall delight in Your statutes; I shall not forget Your word. Psalm 119:38 Establish Your word to Your servant, As that which produces reverence for You. Psalm 119:41-43 41 May Your lovingkindnesses also come to me, O LORD, Your salvation according to Your word; 42 So I will have an answer for him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word. 43 And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I wait for Your ordinances. Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Psalm 119:130 The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:140 Your word is very pure, Therefore Your servant loves it. Psalm 119:148 My eyes anticipate the night watches, That I may meditate on Your word. Psalm 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. Psalm 119:161 Princes persecute me without cause, But my heart stands in awe of Your words. Psalm 119:162 I rejoice at Your word, As one who finds great spoil. Psalm 119:172 Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness. Proverbs 4:3-5 3 When I was a son to my father, Tender and the only son in the sight of my mother, 4 Then he taught me and said to me, "Let your heart hold fast my words; Keep my commandments and live; 5 Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding! Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth. (Message edited by baxter on September 09, 2007) | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.40.8 |
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, ' MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'" Matthew 24:35 " Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 17:17 " Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 18:5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18:11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Romans 10:8 But what does it say? " THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Ephesians 6:17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.40.8 |
Have you ever heard the expressions..."The apple doesn't fall far from the tree", or "Out of the frying pan, into the fire"? http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/18775.html?1171849630 paul_howey Gene Edwards Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 7:05 pm: Sorry for the late post to this string. I saw this just yesterday while doing some research in answer to someone’s email request for evidence on a related subject. There seems to be a spreading doctrinal “sickness” among the Gene Edwards and Frank Viola crowd where more and more people are popping up saying similar things, that we need some kind of extra-biblical experiential “revelation” before we are qualified to minister or preach the Word, etc. That is pure garbage. I have personally witnessed both Frank Viola’s and Gene Edwards’ bashing and repeated attempts to discredit the Bible and undermine people’s confidence in the written Word all while boldly claiming that they uphold the Word. And now (some months ago) Frank has the audacity to come here and say the following: “I strongly believe that God has given us the Scripture to be our standard and guide for discerning truth from error. Especially in matters where one is claiming a subjective experience as a litmus test of some sort.” Yet notice the subtle word “especially”. This word quietly suggests and plants a doubt in the minds of the unwary observer that the Bible is not sufficient for everything regarding “discerning truth from error”. That then suggests that the Bible is not sufficient regarding all matters of faith and practice in the Christian life. No, on the contrary, the fact remains that the Bible is ALL we will ever need to discern truth from error and all we will ever need for knowing what we should and should not do regarding all matters pertaining to faith and practice in the Christian life. Gene Edwards and his followers add to and subtract from the written Word on the fly all in the name of upholding what the Bible teaches. This is utter nonsense. Frank and friends are not always this subtle but when they are this is a perfect example of how they work. Just like Gene, Frank’s teachings are interwoven with both subtle and blatant things that dangerously undermine confidence in the Bible. But, because he does expose some of the ills of the false church system, many suffocating people fall all over themselves thinking that that have finally found a breath of fresh air. More like an ill wind. Then these poor unwary souls drop their guards (if they even had their guards up to being with) and hungrily devour all that these men teach. They applaud and gladly receive whatever else these guys have to say on almost any subject without diligently checking and comparing those teachings with the Bible. But why should they be expected to do their homework? They have been taught by the very same people that the Bible is not sufficient to answer all their spiritual questions! So people think they need Frank and Gene to explain Christianity for them. So these men have built-in continued book sales and job security. How convenient. Further, this is how men like this disarm the “security system” that God has given every Christian to protect them against false teachings. Many herald these men as some of the most important and authoritative speakers on the subject of proper church assembly and other related issues. I see them as spots and blemishes, nothing more. But I am not asking you to take my word for anything. The proof is in their materials. So if you don’t believe me, please check out their books and audio teachings for yourself. Hopefully borrow and don’t buy them. I wouldn’t want to see this mess supported any farther than it already has been. | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
Well, Baxter, now I must confess to you. I actually wrote to Gene Edwards years ago when I found this wonderful community called the church in Indianapolis. Back then, as you know, I thought it was what God wanted. Gene wrote me back and said he's have to check into it.(knowing me, I probably encouraged him to read "meetings") You know, Gene has several of his own little "groups" around the country. Well, mostly in the southeast. They are the community of believers living the first century way of life. I used to be on his mailing list and would hear about when new ones were being started.....Oh well, guess I'll just stay where I am... | ||
| speakingtruth New member Username: speakingtruth Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
Thanks for the relavent Scriptures regarding how God wants us to see His own Words, Baxter. I do have one more to ponder from God's Word. As we recall all we have heard from Scripture regarding all His Names and how important they are: Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your Word above all Your name. Jesus is the Word. The Word is manified! And we can only truly know Him through His Own inspired and completed Scriptures as the Helper reveals the Word to us. The Holy Spirit and the valid, balanced Living Scriptures will never contradict for they are One. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.40.8 |
Lauramarie, following is an excerpt from a letter that I received from someone back in 1997..."Gene Edwards is a slightly less power hungry version of Mike. It was kind of funny. A couple of years ago, …We found out that he (GE) had said that he had real reservations about Mike P., because Mike was too controlling. But when …asked Mike P. about Gene, he said that he thought Gene was too power hungry. So that kind of says it all. Anyway, Gene has recently been going more and more overboard on this “NT pattern” thing. He pretty much says there is one specific way for churches to meet, etc. He is an example of one who is trying to regain something that 2000 years out of God’s plan. He is also showing more and more signs of being the only one that can make this happen. It’s sad, because some of his earlier writings were absolutely amazing. Like I said, when these guys get apostolic thoughts in their heads, they usually get power crazy shortly thereafter…” | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
I believe it. I have lived where I am now for 11 1/2 years. My letter to him and when I read his book on How to Meet were all done where I used to live. I didn't agree with everything in his book on how to meet although it did seem sort of like he and mike were both trying to find THE way to live. they both had (have) their own ideas of what is in God's head about life here on earth. Thanks for sharing that! | ||
| gottapost2 New member Username: gottapost2 Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 212.112.241.44 |
I'm resuming this is a shorter thread. >> Posted by john17 on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 12:19 am: Gottapost2, i don't understand what you mean by with CII? No, i do not live in Indy, so i can not answer your question about 3 places in indy. However, many of the things shared by Indy are NOT new. Tozer, Nee, Wesley, Finney, Bonhoffer, O Chambers, Ravenhill, P Washer, etc, and those "doctrines" are supported by numerous churches everywhere with many different denominations. << John17, I've read all those guys except for P Washer. I don't recall any of those teachers espousing the "Togetherness" doctrine, or "Withholding Affection" from your spouse, or the selective use of MATT 18. Yes, CII reads those teachers, but Mike et al borrows the pieces that support their doctrines then sharpy criticizes (should I say, tears to pieces) the other teachings and lives of those sam people (again I don't know about P Washer) you mentioned where there teachings strays from CII dogma. Speakingtruth mentioned this. Just because CII *borrows* their teachings doesn't mean these teachers endorse Mike Peters. Some still-living teachers (not in your list) have, in fact, distanced themselves from Mike Peters when they've encountered his doctrines and/or practices. | ||
| gottapost2 New member Username: gottapost2 Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 83.217.66.50 |
In regards to people going places alone (like the bathroom) john17 said: >> No, that is not TRUE. Perhaps one feels that they should, but even Mike has commented on this very subject. Check out Healthy devoted relationships. There is a TON of BLESSINGS related to doing things together. I could give examples. That's the heart of togethernes << John17, I was part of the group for many years, I KNOW! If I "feel" I can't drive through a red light, I DON'T. Why? Because I *FEAR* the penalty. Yes, I can if I really want to. Doing things "alone" (ANYTHING!) is a RED LIGHT within the CII practice. It's the same if you want to leave CII. Mike says, "it's a free country, no one has a gun to your head." Well, people to have a "proverbial" gun to your head with their exaggerated over-hyped accusations when you try to leave or you do almost anything ALONE. You say "NO IT IS NOT TRUE", it sounds like you base that your outside experience. To the outside, Mike tells a sweet story. But it is too late after you swallow the bait, the hook is already set. | ||
| john17 New member Username: john17 Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 160.136.109.103 |
Gottapost2 Just found this new thread. WOW!! A lot of posts. Don't have time to respond to all -- may be some later. As for P Washer -- That is Paul Washer who is ALIVE and he is, i believe a southern baptist?who is very strong on using 1 John as a test of the Spirit in a person. His teaches are available on the internet. | ||
| gottapost2 New member Username: gottapost2 Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 213.154.227.201 |
Oh, Paul Washer. Yes I know of him, he's got well-balanced and Biblical teaching. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 207.195.245.237 |
There was a couple who was moving because they were being "disciplined". When the woman was talking to an "elite" member back in Indy (cause usually "rejects" are exiled from Indianapolis) and happened to mention that they stopped at a truck stop to go to the restroom, the "elite" was flabberghasted that the husband would have allowed that. God forbid you put your wife and child at risk by using a public restroom at "Stuckey's" or a "Flying J's". The fear that sort of behavior and practice produces in people toward those "outside" is paralyzing. Just standing in line at a grocery or department store can send shivers up your spine if the person behind you gets "too close". Remember how when you were children you thought if someone touched you you might get kooties? Before moving to Indy, when I could hear God and sought to be led by His Spirit, I loved the body of Christ! I wanted to be with people and love them and serve them and know and understand their needs. I didn't need the "spirit police patrol" monitoring my every step and move. That does not produce the LIFE of the Spirit in a believer. But when someone tells you THIS is what is expected of you if you are going to walk with us, then you are doing it, not out of LOVE for God and love for your spiritual family, you are doing it because you know what will happen if you DON'T. The former was out of a relationship with God and a love for Him and His, the later is out of fear of punishment. Let go of the reigns Mike and let God's people GO! | ||
| etrop New member Username: etrop Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.179.140.12 |
Baxter, I really liked your listing of Scriptures. So look at these that I have used in dealing with the lost in telling of the power of the Scriptures. Luke 16 the Lord is telling the account of the rich man and Lazerus. Abraham is quoted as saying "if they believed not Moses and the Prophets they want believe if one rose from the dead". In Matthew 4 during the tempting of Jesus by Satan, every missuse of the scriptures by Satan is met with the phrase "it is written." The Lord giving power to the scriptures. In 2 Peter 2 after writting about being eyewitnesses to the Lord Jesus on earth, Peter says "we have a more sure word of prophecy that we should heed" this can only be the scriptures. Looking for the soon return of the Living Word our Blessed Lord Jesus. Etrop | ||
| john17 New member Username: john17 Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 160.136.109.103 |
Interesting note: John's baptism -- Where did it come from? Show me in the Old Testament scriptures | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
didn't mike already address that in the How to eat from the Tree of Life? Seems like that was the tape it was on. | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
Baptism as we see it today wasn't talked about or practiced in the OT. The practice started in the inter-testimental period (the last 400 years before the incarnation). It was a ceremony that gentiles had to go through before becoming Jews - a ceremonial bath. And it was practiced, not just by Jews, but other religions as well. It certainly has some roots in the OT. The ceremonial washings, pourings, and sprinklings of water and blood by the Jewish priests were closely related to baptism (the Greek word "baptizo" is used in the Greek version of the Hebrew OT relating to these activities of the priests), and have the same symbolism -- cleansing and washing away of sin. There's a lot that could be said about how, after Jesus came, baptism replaced circumcision as the sign of entering covenant with God. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 207.195.245.237 |
Why don't you just say what you are trying to get at? Which teaching of MIKE'S are you basing this question off from? The one we have already discussed as being one of the most damnable? | ||
| john17 New member Username: john17 Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 160.136.109.103 |
An honest search of the scriptures for yourself without any input from Mike, and you will see there ARE valid questions. On what authority did John perform his baptisms? There is NOTHING written in the Old Testament. So i ask again, what scripture can you show me that John the Baptist had the authority to perform baptisms. History is nice, but as you said scripture only right? | ||
| joythruchrist Member Username: joythruchrist Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
How is this relevant to mike's abuses on the Word of God and on our brothers and sisters? | ||
| gottapost2 New member Username: gottapost2 Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.27.25.205 |
JTC, perhaps john17 believes this is relevant because it is one of Mike's semantics games he's learned? I've heard this "apologetic" given by Mike too many times. I'll summarize: Rightly so, John's "authority" for everything he said and did was from the (capital R) Revelation God AND THE LAW OF MOSES ("Herod, why do you commit adultery?"). There was a tradition and scriptural precedence for ceremonial washings. What made John's different was that he was doing it 1) on the border of Israel in Jordan (Jews and Gentiles were getting baptized <remember>), and two he wasn't an "approved brother" (or he wasn't part of the leadership structure from the temple oligarchy). He had "direct" revelation. God spoke to John. Mike Peters will say that God speaks to "us" the same way today. By "Us" Mike (along with other errant groups) really means himself, the cult leader. I don't argue that God doesn't speak to people. But 98% of good teaching says that "God will not contradict his own Word." In the " How to Eat from the Tree of Life" Mike argues (with WRONG and INACCURATE scriptures) that God contradicts his own word. "New Revelation" which contradicts scripture is how we got Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist plus a plethora plenty of weird offshoots. We must have an absolute standard, and that standard is the WORD OF GOD, no matter how much it is twisted by Mormons, JW's, or Petersism. | ||
| joythruchrist Member Username: joythruchrist Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
We must have an absolute standard, and that standard is the WORD OF GOD, no matter how much it is twisted by Mormons, JW's, or Petersism. Well. All I can say to that is 'amen'. | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
john 17, many of us were mesmerized my mike peters and his teachings. I can't tell you how many times I have asked others about the authority of John's baptism from the OT. You're following in my footsteps! But what is MORE important to me today is that I have family members that I LOVE that are not rational, cannot be talked to civily, could not even discuss the Old Testament with me right now because I am "deceived" and they aren't allowed to talk to me. I would like to discuss this with them!! I can't. Their freedom in Christ is gone. Who they talk to is decided for them. What they say to me is decided for them. If they "see" me (visit) is decided for them and would never be just them. It would be with others from the group. Their critical thinking skills are gone. Lots of people out in the world can tell you things about how to live the Christian life and scriptures that will appeal to you. There are some scholars here (trying to help you see truth). We've all heard it before! Thank God there are a few who have escaped with all their faculties and are able to try and help you understand this before you are sucked in and only a memory in our minds..... | ||
| cult_fighter Junior Member Username: cult_fighter Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 40.0.40.10 |
John17, Please stop with these distractions about "the Cross" and "John's baptism". We all have no problems with these things. The real discussion is on whether you believe in a mind control cult, in a leader telling wives to withhold affection from their husband, in that same leader sending secret emails to those wives, and in that leader passing on to children that their "Daddy hates Jesus". Do YOU accept these things? Bottom Line: If you read through the many posts on FactNet, there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence against this cult! To believe Mike Peters, you are forced to believe that Maleman, Denny, Jen, First_Truth, Ultimatetruthseeker, Gottapost, Shammah, Tim D, Mike R, Tim Sz, Danielle, Elizabeth N, Threeseas, Lisa, Redm1sk, Nintai, Baxter, Anonymous, Sofia, Gene F, Rob W, Lauramarie, myself, and many others -- we're ALL lying about everything, while your holy Mike is absolutely telling the truth about everything. OK, if you want to believe that over 20 different people are totally lying -- then you're a good recruit for this cult. God help you, especially if you're married!! | ||
| john17 New member Username: john17 Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 160.136.109.103 |
Gottapost2 Part 1 of 2 Comment: He had "direct" revelation. God spoke to John. Mike Peters will say that God speaks to "us" the same way today. I don't argue that God doesn't speak to people. But 98% of good teaching says that "God will not contradict his own Word." In the "How to Eat from the Tree of Life" Mike argues (with WRONG and INACCURATE scriptures) that God contradicts his own word. Response: Mike never argued that God's word is contradicted. In fact, God does not contradict himself because ONLY God knows good and evil. That's why the Pharisees missed God. John 5:39-40 -- They did not come to GOD for understanding. They thought healing on the sabbath was sin. They MISSED God. Direct Revelation is New Testament -- Paul -- Galatians 1:11-12 Comment: "New Revelation" which contradicts scripture is how we got Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist plus a plethora plenty of weird offshoots. Response: Justification by faith, full immersion water baptism, laying on of hands, speaking in tongues, priesthood of all believers, the Father's Love ... most of these genuine REVELATIONS OF GOD -- were considered cultic with many put to death. A more recent, within 100 years, being pentecostals who spoke in tongues were considered DEMON possessed. What is the issue that angers people so much? A group of people, sincerely, trying to put into practice the WORD of GOD. Matthew 7:24. Yes, they can make mistakes, SO WHAT. Yes, IT DOES HURT when things don't go well with people you love, but that's what the CROSS is ALL ABOUT... THAT IS HOW WE RESPOND TO INJUSTICE.... not running out and telling one sided stories that many others could counter. God says -- "it is mine to avenge; I will repay.. Hebrews 10:30 and other OT and NT scriptures. And 1 Thess 5:15 -- Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else. Matthew 18:21-35 Unmerciful Servant -- verse 35. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.111.213 |
I'm curious john17 as to what specifically is your point? Are you comparing Mike Peters with John the baptist? You know, when Mike responded to a letter written to him by J. D. Bales of Harding University, a portion of his reply was "2) In a similar vain [sic], I really don't care 'who I am.' A voice crying in the wilderness will do fine." But whatever. There may be nothing in the OT, but there IS in the new and Jesus gave his endorsement of John. By John's own words he said, John 1:33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' God had revealed to John that he would be baptizing. That gives him authority. The fact that the Holy Spirit descended from Heaven and remained on Him and a voice out of Heaven proclaiming "You are my beloved Son, in You I am well pleased", well that seems to validate that he had authority from the Father. Makes no difference to me that this is or isn't in the OT. It's in the scriptures. Jesus gave His own testimony concerning John, Matt 11:10 "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.' Mark 1:2 ¶ As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: "BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY; Luke 7:27 "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.' Matt 11:13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Matt 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept {it,} John himself is Elijah who was to come. And AFTER John, comes Jesus…Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Mark 1:2 ¶ As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: "BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY; Mark 1:3 THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'" Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 1:5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. Mark 1:6 John was clothed with camel's hair and {wore} a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. Mark 1:7 And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. Mark 1:8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Mark 1:9 ¶ In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Mark 1:10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; Mark 1:11 and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. I don't see anything anywhere in the scriptures where anything has been prophesied regarding Mike Peters. | ||
| john17 New member Username: john17 Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
Gottapost2: Part 2 of 2 So what is being argued about? 1) 1 Corinthians 5, 2 Thessalonians 3:14, Galatians 5:7-10, Hebrews 12:15, -- "Get the leaven out of the batch". Now called by those here the "Doctrine of Withholding Affection" Following the Pattern: Acts 2:42-47, Phil 3:17, Acts 7:44, and Hebrews 8:5, Hebrews 6:12 As such: Doing things together rather than alone. "The Doctrine of Togetherness" -- 1) Ecclessiates 4:9-12 "Two are better than one...two can defend themselves. 2) Matthew 18:19 -- "if TWO of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 3) Matthew 18:20 -- "For where two or three come together in my name, there I am with them." 4) Healing -- James 5:16a "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be HEALED. 5) Revelation 11:3-6 -- two witnesses 6) Luke 10:1 -- Jesus "sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go." 7) 1 Cor 12 -- (Verse 21) "The eye can not say to the hand, "I don't need you." There is nothing cultic about following the PATTERN that JESUS set. The written scriptures testify of "togetherness" all over.... People who genuinely follow Jesus will hurt you, and that is a fact, and ordained by GOD. Jesus was betrayed by his best friends, and crucified by His own creation and His own chosen people. That's the way it is... it's the CROSS, and if you hold on -- there will be RESURRECTION!!!!!!!  Gottapost2, i don't know how tone is conveyed on written email, but i am excited to share these things. My heart longs for you to see the GLORY in all this suffering. Don't let bitterness or anything get in your way. God IS IN CONTROL. Mike and all the others are really trying to serve Jesus as best they can, and if I get hurt, then i am taking a perspective of FAITH, and i am going to wrestle with them and fast for them, and that is the attitude i took with the group here, and Father has brought reconciliation not once but THREE times. It's really about how you perceive things -- even the scripture says that over and over -- to some the aroma of life to others the stench of death. My heart is to wrestle with you. i am not arguing with you. i am pleading with you as i sure you are for me based on your perspective of things. love nb | ||
| john17 New member Username: john17 Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
Baxter, i didn't see anything in the scriptures prophesying about Paul either. Galatians 1:11-12 -- "i want you to know, brothers, that the gospel i preached is not something that man made up. i did not receive it from any man, nor was i taught it; rather, i received it by REVELATION from JESUS CHRIST. | ||
| baxter Member Username: baxter Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.111.213 |
Yes, but his revelation is "recorded" in the scriptures. | ||
| john17 Junior Member Username: john17 Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
Lauramarie: i just wanted to encourage you not to give up. i would like to urge you to perhaps, if you want, try to contact Mike or whoever. you seem to want to follow Jesus with ALL your heart. I encourage you to knock on the door. Following Jesus, (Phil 2:3-11): do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.... your ATTITUDE should be the SAME as that of Christ Jesus; who being in the very nature GOD, did not consider equality with GOD something to be grasped, but man himself NOTHING, taking the very nature of a servant. Go humbly and ask Mike or whoever you feel is blocking the relationship with your family. Why are you "deceived". I know you don't want to be "deceived". Humbly ask why they think that of one who wants to follow Jesus with ALL their heart. Don't hold on to any expectations or rights -- TRUST GOD... but do pursue reconciliation and pray and fast too!!! i have been in a similar boat... i can feel your pain. DO NOT give up!!! Keep trying!! I did have reconciliation!!! | ||
| john17 Junior Member Username: john17 Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
GOD IS IN CONTROL!!!! | ||
| gottapost2 New member Username: gottapost2 Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 195.177.250.222 |
john17 (nb), you sound sincere, but a tree is known not by its sincerity but it's fruit. I have two questions for you: Is it that under that same "sincerity" that ChrisO "outed" Skeza2505 (gee, who provided that info to ChrisO????)? Were you involved in any way ChrisO's gathering on past members transgressions? I understand that we have a cross to bear. I also understand that we don't have to put up with the "practice of the Nicolaitans" and the hypocrisy. | ||
| cult_fighter Junior Member Username: cult_fighter Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 75.2.15.79 |
John17 (NB), Were you the angry table-pounding guy at a contentious meeting between members of your group and members of my church at a westside McDonalds? The subject was the love being withheld by one of your women from her God-given Christian husband. That was you, NB, wasn't it? Why were you so angry? I'd say you have quite problem with anger, don't you? | ||
| speakingtruth New member Username: speakingtruth Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.127.144.7 |
John17, You clearly are not aware of this yet but you are revealing to many here the depth of deception you are in. Many have seen the mask pulled off of Mike Peters and his leading men and women. He is a severe and pathological liar and a spiritual con artist. You have fallen for this thus far and each post you make tells us all just how far you have fallen for lies and liars. As far as “John the Baptist” it was clearly stated by Christ -IN THE SCRIPTURES- that this man was a great prophet (one who hears God and speaks for Him). John being a “verified” great prophet -who never practiced lies or deception- prepared the way for our Lord. I have to say that it seems to me that those seeking revelation outside of what our Lord has faithfully given to us -at the finish of the Scriptures in the time of Christ’s Apostles and Prophets- are manifesting to others just how pride in this idea will deceive and drive you to accept more lies. For this pride feeds the sin nature of man far more than most realize. It is not like fleshly sins which are easy to discern as wrong but rather it is very, very subtle as it plays with the inner ego of man whispering in your ears things like “you hear something that only this small group hears”. Satan has attempted to add to God’s Word of complete revelation in the Scriptures, and mans pride in thinking this “special revelation” could happen to them is easy prey for the Devil. Are you playing with the bait, John17? Get in the right position with Mike Peters as you accept his words over God’s final revelation and you will feel the hook stab you! But if your pride is fed and encouraged enough this may not bother you. A seared conscience will keep you there. The more bait you take in the deeper the hook will set. We are praying for your soul that this won‘t happen. And we pray the same for others who are being misled. Don't wait until your time comes and you tell others how you ignored the Word of God and chose a mere cunning man's deceptive words. Or could it be that you are swimming by here already deeply hooked on the line of Mike Peters? denny.elslager@gmail.com | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
john 17, you missed my whole point. mike peters is not anyone I want to be involved with. his teachings are not from God, they are mike's interpretation of what he wants to believe. WHY would I try to go and "reconcile" with mike when I see what he has done to my family?? WHY would I want that in my life now? I was deceived at one time, but it was by mike. Now he tells his followers not to associate with people on the outside because they are deceived. I am not, but if he tells his followers I am, then they believe that. You miss that whole point. I don't want to live my life like a robot, living in fear of anyone or anything that is not all about mike peters. I don't want to end up without my critical thinking skills and above all, I don't want to lose my freedom in Christ. Jesus is who I go to for what I need, not mike peters. It sounds like your are in the process of swallowing all mike has to offer. It might go down OK, but will spoil in your stomach and make you ill in the end. | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
john 17, I forgot to add, I HAVE gone humbly, with a pure heart, to my family members. Pleading with them for a relationship in Christ, as GOD wants His children to have. I was attacked viciously in a couple letters back to me. I know that my family member didn't write that kind of stuff to me. I know where it came from. Why try and reconcile with that vile? You NEED to see this for what it is, and it is NOT God centered, it is man centered and we all know where that leads.....now where was that garden gate? | ||
| john17 Junior Member Username: john17 Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
Gottapost: I have never met ChrisO, and i have not even talked or emailed Mike P or anyone else in the last couple months. Not because i can't. My visiting this site was unintentional. I was actually looking for the all@hisfeet website via google. | ||
| john17 Junior Member Username: john17 Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
Gottapost: I have never met ChrisO, and i have not even talked or emailed Mike P or anyone else you would know in the last couple months. Not because i can't. My visiting this site was unintentional. I was actually looking for the all@hisfeet website via google. | ||
| john17 Junior Member Username: john17 Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 140.153.203.4 |
i just want to say to all here that i have genuinely been helped by Mike Peters and those from Indianapolis. how you look at a situation really does play out in your actions. If the proper heart is kept in the time of injustice, then all things will work out for good!!! That's my heart and attitude. I would hope that Father would show you that opposing those who genuinely want to please Jesus is not the direction to travel. God looks at the heart. | ||
| gottapost2 New member Username: gottapost2 Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 72.208.241.40 |
john17, When you signed off "nb", your initials seemed to indicate you were the man in this photo. My apology for mistaking you for a different "nb". If you say you are not, I accept your word for it. So are you saying people should accept the "times of injustice" that are the "daily life" in CII? By the way, I believe you when you say Mike has helped you. Probably with advice, right? Ask yourself this, who does Mike get advice from? Who ever gives him advice? Who ever corrects him? Do you know? I also gave you a test: Call a CII member. Go ahead, try it. See if they can "visit" with you without first consulting with a another leader. This is just an example. There are far worse things that happens there with the gossip, lies, deceit, serial exaggeration, and subtle blackmail. It has cost some people their spouses, husbands, and children. In some cases, those injured will NEVER get those people back. Never. | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
"I would hope that Father would show you that opposing those who genuinely want to please Jesus is not the direction to travel. God looks at the heart." John 17, you are exactly right!! I don't know WHY my family members would oppose us!! God DOES look at the heart!! | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
John 17, we realize you have been helped by the teachings at CII. just remember, in the beginning, it all sounded good. we have just tried to share what happens when you commit to living their way of life. the teachings seem sound, but the fruit needs to be looked at. all I have to go on is what my family used to be like and what they are like now, cold, emotionless, and not willing to even talk to their blood family. Is that the fruit you would like to produce?? once inside,you won't be aware of the metamorphose. | ||
| baxter Intermediate Member Username: baxter Post Number: 186 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 128.241.41.208 |
Exactly, lauramarie! To all who may "stumble" upon these threads: No one falls head long into an abusive cult knowingly. "I think I will join this cult and get my head messed up." People get involved unknowingly because cults know how to "hide" that which would expose them until it's too late. It's a principle for which we must be on guard. "How useless to spread a net in full view of all the birds!" Prov. 1:17 And also, many of the dangerous aspects of cults (brainwashing, mental manipulations, fear and control factors) they happen so subtly the victim is not actually aware that they are taking place. That's why many of the people in the Indy group really don't believe they are in a cult. However, if they were set free, that's where they begin to see what has happened and what has taken place. And if you begin to notice that you are losing your joy, you live in fear, you are losing the liberty we have in Christ, your faith is being "lorded over", you hear more about what a man says than the whole sum of the scriptures, you just better run in the opposite direction...it isn't GOD. | ||
| lauramarie Member Username: lauramarie Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.177.94.213 |
first truth, thank for your 9/18 post. I read it again and really like it. Thanks for sharing your heart. |
