| Author | Message | ||
     johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Was FA a cult?It didn't start that way but eventually cult tendencies developed at FA centered around the opinions of Freeman. Authoritarianism,legalism.Similarities between FA and JW's.Let's define the word,cult.See: http://www.freeminds.org/fmi_faq1.htm Here are two books: A Life of Trials,Tragedies,and Triumphs,Gordon Lindsay.Story of John Alexander Dowie.Similar parallels in the fixations of Freeman.It would have been better to simply preach the gospel,pray for the sick and let God heal(signs following)to confirm,rather than preach against doctors.There's a difference between medical healing and divine healing but it's not a sin to help people.The teaching of Freeman legalistically tried to bring about healing at the expense of common sense.Sick people need hope not condemned for going to doctors. Attacking medicine doesn't produce faith. FA spent time denouncing instead of demonstrating.FA had the mindset of the disciples in John 9.They saw a blind man and were more concerned about what sin had been committed rather than simply healing the man.Jesus didn't debate sin-he healed.FA couldn't do that so they got entangled trying to figure out what sin or demon was responsible,etc.According to FA disciples,Hobart died to go home to be with the Lord-no fault was found,while others had an evil eye focused on them for their failures. Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz-former governing body member of the Watchtower.This cult destroyed people's lives. Matt.9;Mk.5;Lk.8 The woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science.The incident is there to show the hopelessness of her condition,desperation; that Jesus healed her through determined faith.By the way,she didn't subsequently have to go through deliverance from medical science demons.To believe in them is as farfetched as the war in hell story of JDS teachers.They're only in the fertile imagination of FA. Matt.9 doesn't mention physicians.Mark 5 is the only place where we're told she suffered at the hands of physicians.Luke 8 says she spent all her living on physicians.John doesn't mention the story at all.Hobart himself used the argument in Did Jesus Die Spiritually p.40 that since only two of the gospel writers recorded the Ps.22:1 passage,total abandonment of Jesus by the Father wasn't true.Had it been true he assumes all 4 gospels would have recorded it.Since the woman with the issue of blood story is in only 3 of the 4 gospels,and since only one of them tells us she suffered at the hands of physicians,one says she spent all she had on physicians,and the other doesn't mention the physicians at all,how then could Hobart and FA use this as a crucial prooftext to outright condemn doctors/ medical science, and to psychologically put pressure and fear in Christians not to seek medical help?He elevated "thou shalt not go to a doctor" to a doctrine to be wrapped around the necks of believers.He made people think they weren't even saved if they went to get help.FA members showed no compassion. Col.4:14Paul calls Luke a BELOVED PHYSICIAN. It's not a sin to be a doctor.Yes,all Luke reported in his inspired writings(Luke,Acts)is the power of God to heal people but the fact remains he was still identified by Paul as a physician.Paul mentioned one of his opposers as Alexander the coppersmith(II Tim.4:14).Does that mean the profession itself is somehow evil?Luke never renounced medicine or went through deliverance.No conflict in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
How I found balance and freedom concering "The Christmas Issue" of Hobart: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/holidays.htm Like Jehovah's Witnesses,FA made an issue out of the celebration of Christmas,to isolate members from friends, family and even other true sincere born again Christians.All this did was bring further divisions between true believers. It's not a sin to celebrate Christmas.If you don't want to celebrate it, then don't(Romans 14) but don't condemn other people for it. However,you shouldn't even be living your life by a calendar, since it's pagan in origin too. Legalism like this just produce hypocrisy and contradictions because you can always find something in this life that has pagan origins. Hobart and FA violated other people's consciences by making issues out of things like Christmas. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Hobart had no right, no authority and no business getting involved with public teachings in regards to the private, personal, intimate sexual practices of married couples. Matt. 19:6; Hebrews 13:4 The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did this and destroyed people's marriages. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Positive Thinking and Confession is really nothing more than Christian Science in a new dress, no matter how Hobart and FA defended it. Read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin to start with. The fruit proves it. Hobart and his followers couldn't positively think and confess away sickness and disease any more than Mary Baker Eddy could by actually denying the reality and existence of sickness and disease in the first place. Hagin, Copeland, Kenyon and the rest have their take on this practice, and Hobart and FA had their's. In fact, Hobart more than likely got it from Hagin after becoming charismatic, and it is not a balanced view of Biblical Christianity. He just took it further, went out on a limb with it to extremes in regards to divine healing. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Hypocrisy: Hobart preached against doctors. He belittled people for wearing glasses; at least things like this were implied if not explicity stated in FA teachings. Yet, he himself wore an orthopedic shoe because one of his legs was shorter than the other due to polio. If it was a lack of faith to wear glasses, then it was a lack of faith to wear a lift shoe. I am not aware that he threw his shoe away, believing God for healing. If he did, then I stand corrected. When Hobart died one of the five-fold ministers said it was a Job's trial for Hobart. It may have been a Job's trial for his wife or the church, but certainly not for Hobart. He was dead. Job got healed in the Bible. God restored everything he'd lost and his health. You can't use Job and call Hobart's death a Job's trial for him. And he wasn't raised from the dead. FA taught you shouldn't get immunizations for your children, but it was OK to get them if you were a big cheese five-folder travelling to another country to spread the Word of God/End-Time Message of Faith....just rebuke the effects. After all, you don't want those medical science demons to get the upper hand on you. This is lying, double standards, contradiction. Sounds like the fast ones the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has pulled over the decades.. Come on, people, this is obviously ridiculous. Can't you see through this kind of deception? | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
FA implied in it's message that going to college and working for the government in a government job was wrong, yet Hobart went to college and seminary. Many of the followers gave up jobs and their kids didn't prepare for college and higher education to find their place in society like they should have. I know one man who thought just about every job out there was "unscriptural". I got to the place in my life where I thought: "Hell, just being alive is unscriptural. I might as well go live on the moon. How can I be prosperous if I can't work anywhere and support my family?" Hobart and his wife worked in a group home while either he was in college or attending seminary. I don't remember the details on that. I later found this passage of Scripture: Romans 16:23. A Roman city treasurer/chamberlain was a disciple and believer.No conflict, no contradiction.No issue being made of it. Hobart should have stuck with what he taught in Charimatic Body Ministry, that people are called to serve and glorify God in whatever field or profession they find themselves. This includes government positions, scientists, biologists, doctors and nurses, etc. There were even believers in the Roman Army. Acts10. This obviously doesn't mean be a prostitute or drug dealer for Jesus. But Hobart had no business dictating or "doctrinizing" the personal lives and professions of Christians. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
There are probably still people who hang on Hobart's every word like those who follow William Branham's message and ministry in Bible Believers Churches. Some of these fanatics believed Branham would rise from the dead like some of the FA members. They think nobody else could possibly have any truth. I remember hearing some of the FA members always saying, "Brother Freeman said this and Brother Freeman said that. That's what Brother Freeman says." To this day I don't give a "RA"(rat's •••) what Brother Freeman said about everything, claiming it to be nothing but the pure Word of God, strong meat, deeper truth or whatever it was supposed to be. He wasn't right about everything in the Bible. He didn't die for your sins. He won't be sitting on the Judgment Seat of Christ judging you or trying your works. We weren't following Jesus or glorifying God by putting every word he spoke and his opinions on par with Scripture and absolute and final truth. It did not further the Gospel by putting this man on a pedastal. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Acts 5:34-39 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. I think what happened to FA, a church of 2000 people, after Hobart's death proves there was something fundamentally wrong with it. The vast majority of people were following a man and not the Lord. It could have been a great church, bringing light and hope to a suffering world. By preaching against every Christian denomination outside itself, it BECAME just another denomination with cult characteristics and tendencies. Authoritarianism, extremism, legalism, irrational thought processes, and the lacking of common sense. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
I do not believe anymore that the denominational churches are Babylon as Hobart taught. In the book of Revelation we are told of the 7 churches of Asia. Each had it's strengths, weaknesses, attributes and faults. Throughout history since Christianity's birth these types of characteristics can be found in every church or every church age, as some believe.. Even heresy, false doctrine, error are found in true churches; but, they're still the church, not Babylon, later mentioned in the book of Revelation. The angels or messengers to these churches are in Christ's right hand. God is in control. There is real Christianity, truth and life outside of Faith Assembly and Hobart's teachings. Jesus Christ cannot be limited to one man or one group. The Church of Jesus Christ somehow managed to exist and survive over 2000 years before Hobart Freeman or FA ever came along on the scene to fix it. With all it's faults God still loves the church or churches. They represent the Body of Christ, his Bride. In trying to tell everybody else what was wrong with their church Hobart and FA failed to see what was wrong with their own. I believe Jesus Himself would have good things to say about FA, but he would also have some negative things against it and some sound rebukes. He loves Hobart, he loves the people from FA. For people like me to point out some of the problems does not mean we don't love them or that we are of the devil. I'm sure there will be those who defend Hobart and his teachings tooth and toenail- to the bitter end- but I only feel sorry for them. Denial and justification don't change the facts. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
If anyone would like to post what changes you witnessed from Hobart's Claypool pre-Baptism of the Holy Spirit days, to the Glory Barn Days, to the FA warehouse in a cornfield Days, please share with us. There were good things about the movement but I believe the bad eventually outweighed and overshadowed the good that was left. Tell us the good and the bad. Be honest with yourself first and then with us. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pentecostal, Charismatic Movement all over the world is of God but oftentimes what men are doing with it and what goes on in the name of it is NOT of God. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Here are some other topics of interest surrounding Hobart and FA: Earrings and pierced ears( I am a man and have both ears pierced now. I am of Native American descent and attend Pow Wows, wear my regalia and dance in the circle honoring my ancestors and culture). This wouldn't have been tolerated. Women and Makeup- some of you women need a little makeup. Women wearing pants-religious groups run by a bunch of men always seem to legislate women's clothing. Headcoverings-I have my doubts about his take on this in I Cor. 11 Adida tennis shoes-maybe Hobart shouldn't have worn neck ties. Aren't they phallic symbols? T-shirts with Logos. Sports- Paul used a Roman soldier's gear,something a gladiator might wear, to describe the whole armor of God. TVs- How many of you read newspapers or magazines? Oh, that's right, the five-fold ministers had to watch a little TV in order to keep up with things and bring timely messages from the Lord to the congregation. Songs in minor keys vs. major(I was a music major in college. Hobart needed to admit his ignorance because he didn't know what he was talking about) Much of the Messianic Jewish music is in minor keys and different modes in praise to God. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil with minor key music. This is ridiculous. The fact that FA had relatively few people of minority involved in it- the actual FA church and it's satellite associate groups. If it was ALL truly of God then like on the Day of Pentecost there should have been people of every color and nationality and tongue of the nation of Israel who had gathered at Jerusalem. Yes, I'm gonna make a racial issue about it. He had messages on God's Answer to the Racial Problem with some token folks offering testimony but I don't buy into him and his bigoted five-fold ministers. I remember visiting FA and people looking at me like I was from some other planet. Excuse my language but some of you were nothing more than ignorant, redneck white folks living in the cornfields of Indiana, hiding from the rest of the world. With your headcoverings and granny dresses(we jokingly referred to them as church uniforms)you might as well have been Amish Charismatics, Old Order German Baptist or Mennonite Charismatics.. How about Muslims or Catholic Nuns? I laugh now at what used to cause me heartache. Calling yourselves free in Christ and just as much in bondage as the folks you criticized. Apostolic Baptism in Jesus' Name- I came from a Jesus Only Church before getting involved with Hobart's teachings. After reading Gordon Lindsay's book on the Triunity of God I have my doubts about the dogmatism of Oneness Pentecostal water baptism even though Hobart refuted their view on the Godhead. Hobart and FA constituted a pick and choose religious social club-they picked and chose what to make doctrinal issues out of, calling it deeper truth, strong meat, etc. I now call it self-deception. | ||
| healed Member Username: healed Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 218.47.92.89 |
"but it was OK to get them if you were a big cheese five-folder travelling to another country to spread the Word of God/End-Time Message of Faith....just rebuke the effects" Never knew that one...but it makes sense. How could they of traveled without them? That one was covered up for sure. Welcome to the forum! You have certainly done your homework. You gave Hombre something to chew on, Im sure he is at a loss for words right about now. I think where FA did the most damage was in family homes, where someone perhaps had lost hope due to an illness or a spousal abuse problem, and FA gave them a false hope. In reality, however, it made matters worse, much much worse. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Thank you healed for your warm welcome. I would like to comment that Christ's atonement on the cross may have included physical healing but his redemption for us also included our own bodily resurrection and glorification. That hasn't happened yet. I came to the conclusion that while God can and certainly does heal, some things just will not be remedied until all things are made new. I base this on Romans 8, that the whole of creation waits for the coming of Christ and the resurrection and groans and travails in the meantime. That is when our bodies will be redeemed, changed and we will fully realize all he bought for us at Calvary and through his resurrection as the firstborn from the dead and firstborn of creation. Also in Revelation it says that there is coming a time when God will wipe away all tears, death, sorrow, crying AND PAIN. Christians, just like non-Christians experience tears,death,sorrow,crying and PAIN. In short,SICKNESS. So sickness and disease are real, they are here and believers experience them. If Jesus does not return we will all die and await the resurrection, and most likely you're gonna die from something. Everybody not being healed has really nothing to do with a lack of faith or them having some secret sin in their lives. We are in Adam and his one act of sin plunged the world into sin and death. While believers are now in Christ, it doesn't mean the entire effects of Adam's fall have been totally dealt with at this time. Potentially, yes. Actually, no. All things have not been made new yet. The faith message was a distortion and robbed people of true faith, their hope and trust in a God who is in control of his plan for mankind, creation, and his children. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 107 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.32.36 |
...looks like yer preachin' to any empty room, but soon, the rest of your unbeliever buddies will surely show up to pat you on the back for your rabid unbelief, and acceptance of the worlds' methodology for all solutions to lifes' problems. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
The room apparently isn't that empty. You were here to "Attack Me With Your Love" and give us a cameo of your defense.I seem to remember Hobart saying something like if everybody left and the church was empty; he talked about preaching to even just a few people in his early church and other places, he'd still keep on preaching the Word of God. That numbers didn't matter,etc. John2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men], And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.Mark 12 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in [his] words....But he, knowing their hypocrisy... And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question]... Take the "T" off Christ and make Chris. Exchange C for a K...Kriss Kross 'll make ya jump, jump. Como Esta? | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
Hi johiyom >>>Was FA a cult?It didn't start that way but eventually cult tendencies developed at FA centered around the opinions of Freeman. Authoritarianism,legalism.Similarities between FA and JW's.Let's define the word,cult.See: http://www.freeminds.org/fmi_faq1.htm <<< The link you provided on your definition of a cult states this: Concerning: RECRUITMENT 1) Deception - The group's identity and/or their real motives are not revealed at first. The group's leaders tell members to withhold information about the group from outsiders. This definitely did not apply to HEF or FA. 2) Love Bombing - Cults offer instant friendship and acceptance. Recruiters will not take no for an answer without making you feel guilty or ungrateful. If you say yes, guilt and obligation will increasingly be used to lower your defenses. By your own admission this didn't occur! (..."people looking at me like I was from some other planet") 3) Exploit Personal Crisis - Situations such as a broken relationship, death in the family, loss of job, recent move, and loneliness as well as depression are exploited. I cannot answer absolutely that this didn't occur at FA, but I can say that if this occurred, it was absolutely not a part of some concerted or orchestrated effort on the part of the Church. 4) Crisis Creation- The world around you and even other believers are seen in a darker light, or the end of the world is imminent, etc. You must be part of this group to be saved or healed. Yes, this was definitely true. I think Christianity promotes this idea. Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 5) Answers- The group has over-simplified answers to life's questions for every question you ask. Theirs are the ONLY answers. Almost any answer one gives to any situation can be categorized as over-simplification, so this is a general statement that would universally apply... but the second part of the statement "Theirs are the ONLY answers." cannot be applied to HEF or FA... unless by "theirs" you mean bible teaching which we have embraced. Besides, Jesus said that He was the ONLY way. continued... | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
Concerning: PROGRAMMING 1) Intense Study - The focus is on group writings and doctrine. The Bible, if used, is quoted selectively but out of context. The bible was never selectively used and context was ever important. The bible was the heart of HEFs teaching. 2) Warnings - Recruits are told that Satan will cause relatives and friends to say bad things about the group. Recruits soon trust only group members. The cult of Jesus says the same thing: Mat 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 3) Guilt and Fear - Groups focuses on individual's sinful nature and the need to purge the old personality. We were taught that we were a new creation in Christ Jesus and that old things were passed away. 4) Schedule Control, Fatigue - Study and service to group are mandatory, taking up almost all the time of the new member, making them too busy to question or to listen to others. Family, friends, jobs and hobbies are squeezed out, further isolating the new member. We were encouraged to study the Word of God, but "mandatory?", I think not. 5) Attack Independent Thought - Critical thinking is discouraged as prideful and sinful. Blind acceptance is encouraged. Well, my friends at FA all were pretty independent thinkers, but I'm sure you had the herd mentality as well. That wouldn't be an inaccurate statement applied to the denominational system either. 6) Divine Commission - Group leader(s) claim new revelations from God, and that they are God's sole spokesmen to mankind today. Now on this point you may have hit on something (not that FA or HEF ever claimed "new" revelations or ever considered themselves "sole spokesmen") that plagues the modern-day Church, and that is a lack of DIVINE COMMISSION. I've lately come to realize that the lack of a clear calling categorizes those who find themselves mixed up on the focus and commission of the Church of Jesus Christ. 7) Black and White Mentality - All issues have simple answers, and require unquestioning obedience to the group. "Us against them" thinking strengthens group identity. Everyone outside of the group is labeled as weak or misled. While there wasn't "unquestioning obedience to the group," the "Us against them" mentality did prevail at FA... at least in my experience. continued... | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
Concerning: RETENTION 1) Motives Questioned - When sound evidence against the group is presented, members are taught to question the motives of the presenter. What is verifiable is ignored due to what is non-verifiable. Here you describe our attitude toward the media... "sound evidence" would be the lacking ingredient. They traffic in the non-verifiable. 2) Information Control - Group controls what member may see or hear. Forbids contact with ex-members or anyone critical of the group. No one controlled anything, we all were free to see, hear, or do, whatever we wanted. That isn't to say that a person could live in sin and not be disfellowshipped from the assembly, but we certainly were not "controlled" in how we interacted with the world or those ex-members who may have been critical. We were encouraged to avoid those who had an axe to grind, but there was no element of control with regard to who we "could" and "could not" have contact with... I know this from personal experience. 3) Isolation and Alienation - Group becomes a substitute family and is taught that no others are needed, including natural family. Members may be told to quit school, leave home, give up sports, etc. To a limited extent this was true, but hey, wasn't it Jesus who said "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. "? But as far as members being "told" to quit school, leave home, give up sports, etc., you'll need to provide an example. Parents may have had this authority, but never the leadership of FA. 4) Coercion - Disobedience, including even minor disagreement with group doctrine will result in shunning and expulsion. Shunning perhaps by some of the members, but expulsion would have only occurred by HEFs consent and to my knowledge this didn't occur unless there were *serious* problems. You'll need to provide an example for us to examine if this indeed occurred at FA. 5) Phobias - Fear of the world and other people is magnified, as is fear of the devil or evil. Members are taught that something very bad will happen to them if they leave the group. No honorable way out of the group. From the bible we were taught to fear nothing but God. However in practice, I would admit that fear played a part in motivating many of the actions of the FA membership. Leaving the group honorably? I left the "group", I'll leave it to others to decide whether or not it was "honorable". 6) Striving - Group membership and service are essential for salvation. No matter what you do, it is never enough. Like hombre has said, Christianity is an adult religion, it isn't easy, but once you've put your hand to the plow, don't look back. continued... | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
Concerning: RESULTS 1) Dependency - Member adopts a childlike dependency on the group. Members of FA were never encouraged to depend on anyone but God... in fact dependency on the group was absolutely frowned upon! 2) Personality Disorders - Depression, disorientation, anxiety, stress, neurotic or psychotic behavior and even suicidal tendencies may result. No group, no matter what their purpose, is immune from those who suffer from these disorders. 3) Diminished Capacity - Members lose ability to think clearly and critically. Logical contradictions in doctrine have little or no impact on member. If you were there, you would not label FA with this broad stroke. I'm sure that there were those there who did not have the ability to think clearly and critically, but to attribute this to "group-think" would be an error. So prevalent were those who "pointed out logical contradictions" it seemed as if it was an established gift, right along with tongues. There were logical contradictions, but let's not attribute that to some over-arching mind-control technique used by the leadership. If we were wrong about something it was our own choice to keep our eyes shut. 4) Broken Relationships - Family and friends are cast aside. (See Above) 5) Exploitation - Member is exploited financially, physically and/or mentally. May be manipulated into giving all possessions to group, leaving school or job to put in long hours selling literature or other items, providing low cost labor for the group, etc. Didn't happen. A member could put money in a box located in the building... or not. Okay, we've gone through the definition of "cult tendencies" from the link you provided... I'll leave it to the readers to determine whether or not there are sufficient similarities with this guys free mind to warrant a blanket designation of cult status for FA. I do see he is taking donations for his trouble... if any one would like to send me a donation for my trouble, send it to PO Box 666 Good Mental Health Institute, Freebird AL-- thank you! Concerning your other points, I'll attempt to cover them, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. William | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
William, I just do not believe everything Hobart and FA taught was "bible teaching". Plenty of it was Hobart Freeman's heterodox bible teaching. Things were sifted through his views, colored by his opinions. This doesn't mean EVERYTHING he taught was wrong but that he was just as fallible as anyone else no matter how sincere, convinced and convicted he may have been. I have shared a few examples above of how I think he was wrong, hypocritical, legalistic, contradictory, etc. If you feel everything he taught was pure and true biblical teaching then that is your perogative. I just don't and it took me a long time to realize it. | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
I only have a limited amount of time... I'll get to your other posts, but your first paragraph dealt with your definition of a cult/cult tendencies. Most of the Freemind link did not apply to FA, although some points did. Since that was your starting point I felt the need to begin there as well. I'm unsure of why you wanted to associate FA with the link unless it was simply to associate FA with the term Cult? This is unnecessary because the name of this board actually accomplishes this. I'm not a defender of all things FA, but I do think that factual inaccuracies need to be addressed. Later, William | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
I submit the responses of Anita Rosenthal, countmyhair,elijah,and healed on the thread entitiled, Faith Assembly a cult? then what's the definition of a cult? as to why I too believe FA was a cult, or as I like to say, became a cult or cultish. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
I submit the responses of Anita Rosenthal, countmyhair,elijah,and healed on the thread entitiled, "Faith Assembly a cult? then what's the definition of a cult?" as to why I too believe FA was a cult, or as I like to say, became a cult or cultish. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.32.36 |
William...apparently, at present, you have more of the fruit of patient longsuffering than I do. I am beginning to come to the conclusion that there are some people who are completely lost, confused and don't want to understand. This guy appears to be one of them, and for the time being, I have neither the interest nor the time anymore to waste on people who ought to know better. The question that keeps arising to me is this: How is it that you and I heard something entirely ( for the most part ) different than what these others heard? This guy is a fatalist, claiming to be a Christian, just like the rest of the system, who continually recite their religious creeds and mottos, prefacing each prayer with 'if it be thy will', while the ship is sinking. I have yet to see any of these guys deal with the way that Jesus taught faith toward God. Jesus said: 'Have faith in God'. I ask: ' For what?'...if we are going to dismiss every prayer with a spin of the great roulette wheel of Gods capricious desire to help mankind, as they believe, then they are right. There is no point in having faith, and really no point in praying either, unless one simply like to feel pious in some sort of perverted religious way. I say with Paul: If this thing isn't true, then why do we bother?..why not just eat , drink and be merry? It would appear that there are those who have made that decision theirs, and would thrust their belief on others as well through perverting the Gospel....which is of course ' Good News'. ...so tell me, those of perverse disputations, what exactly is 'good news' about a god one cannot trust? ...how is it that you are sure of eternal salvation, when you can't believe Mark 11:24?...isn't He the same Jesus who spoke both things? Logic would conclude confusion from one of these sources, either in Jesus, or in these defamers of the Gospel. I choose to believe Jesus. | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
My point is this: Your header and then your opening paragraph links to this freemind guy's definition of a cult. My question is, why? Most of it is irrelevant. It is one thing to believe along with Anita, countmyhar, elijah, and healed, that FA was a cult, no problem, but why put a link to a irrelevant document? william | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
hombre, obviously you have the interest and time because you've been on here all over these threads so much defending everything FA and Hobart Freeman that it speaks for itself. You had to post on this thread that I started. You'll be back somewhere on here so don't pretend to not be "wasting time" for the time being. You can't help yourself. | ||
| duncan New member Username: duncan Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
Interesting discourse today! My journey here over the past couple of years has been a pursuit of truth and knowledge. As a member of FA from a child until I was in my mid-teens, I didn't understand a lot of what was going on. However, I can remember certain emotions that I felt at the time - not all of them good. As an adult, I am trying to understand this part of my life. I have never been a basher of FA and HEF, nor have a blindly defended them, either. With this in mind, I would like to ask a question to both Hombre and William: Do you believe everything that HEF said was accurate and right in line with scripture? Please don't take this as a trick question or a "set-up" to bash either of you. Thanks! Duncan | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.230.4.175 |
Duncan, >>>With this in mind, I would like to ask a question to both Hombre and William: Do you believe everything that HEF said was accurate and right in line with scripture?<<< NO, and I've said as much... and I'll say more, but what I do say is this, with all of his faults, HEF stood head and shoulders above anyone that I've ever heard when it comes to pointing people to the word of God. I was there. The culture that grew out of his attempts, was a culture of legalism. Now, whether you believe that he was the direct cause, or whether you believe he was, through omission or lack of attention, the indirect cause, makes absolutely no difference to the central point (made over and over by Hombre) --- will you believe God's Word, brought to us by HEF? We certainly heard it enough, or have you forgotten? Throw out every opinion, every pastoral prerogative, every tee-shirt message, he ever preached and still you are left with ream after ream of truth from God's Word that must be either true or not. If it is true, then forget your opinion about who taught it and make it your own. William | ||
| duncan New member Username: duncan Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
William, I agree that HEF was far deeper than most pastors out there. And to answer your question - I do stand on the Word and believe it totally. Not necessarily the way HEF always brought it, but the way it actually reads. I have been going through Biblical Theology for the past year. I just finished my 3rd MP3 which concluded the doctrine of redemption (predestination, election, calling, adoption, etc.) I can say without hesitation that I agreed with 99% of what he said. Having never heard these sermons before(done in 1975 and 1976), one thing stood out to me. He pointed out in every sermon, without exception, that this was teaching that you could not get anywhere else. He stated over and over that seminaries didn't teach it, and he stated that, and I quote "99 and 44/100% of churches do not believe this." I know that Baptist seminaries were very liberal in the 70s and 80s, until the conservative resurgence in the late 80s and early 90s. However, the doctrine that he taught is exactly what is taught in the church I attend. Going back to that cult tendencies list you went over, I agree that HEF taught regularly that you couldn't get the "strong word" at any other church. As an adult, I have found that statement to be false. The whole point of my post is not to say the HEF didn't teach the truth, but to say that there are others out there that believe the Bible, as well. Have a great day! Duncan | ||
| odysseus New member Username: odysseus Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.105.58 |
William, please enlighten us on what HEF taught that you didn’t agree with. I have never read the specifics. Eyeglass perchance? | ||
| odysseus New member Username: odysseus Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.105.58 |
I just loved your magical changing eye glasses on your website that went from Bi-focals to Sunglasses then back to Bi-focals. You gotta love Photoshop. Hey William tell us all again what you disagreed with Hobart Freeman the most on? Eyeglasses, television? Maybe the designated hitter rule in baseball? We all know you loved the x-files on TV. You want to know something William? I think that ole’ Hobart would consider that TV series an occult program. I mean look at what he taught. Wouldn’t you? My sweet Lord I just realized, William you have been had. You need deliverance from the x-files demons. 5-Fold Prophet was right! His curse on you and faith assembly, Hombre and Mark1124 worked after all. Well you know how it starts? First you’re looking at internet porn on a Three Stooges website and next your consorting with Witches named ‘Diva’. After a few succubae you’re so jaded and confused you don’t know Matthew from Melkizadeck. | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 71.207.243.17 |
Humor isn't your forte. | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.146.37.160 |
Okay, on to the rest of your posts. >>>A Life of Trials,Tragedies,and Triumphs,Gordon Lindsay.Story of John Alexander Dowie.Similar parallels in the fixations of Freeman.<<< I quote this only to point out that you seem to love finding parallels. I have read Linsay's book about Dowie, but it was a long time ago, too long to remember any "parallels". >>>Jesus didn't debate sin-he healed.FA couldn't do that so they got entangled trying to figure out what sin or demon was responsible,etc.<<< You know, there may have been some of that, but there wasn't a week that went by that someone didn't have a testimony about God supernaturally healing or delivering someone. To say "FA couldn't do that" is misleading, because God was doing that (I don't mean specifically a blind eye, because I don't remember any blind eyes being opened, but certainly supernatural healings were commonplace.) >>>According to FA disciples,Hobart died to go home to be with the Lord-no fault was found,while others had an evil eye focused on them for their failures. <<< If there was fault, and if it were found, then there would be no reason to hide the facts. Trust me, there were plenty of people searching for the "reason". Possible reasons for HEFs death: Old age (none of us know when it is time to go), a Job-like trial (your protestations noted), chastisement, sin, (oh, better leave this one out lest a parallel be made between me and the disciples in John 9) or something in the infinite wisdom of God that escapes our little minds. >>>Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz-former governing body member of the Watchtower.This cult destroyed people's lives.<<< The second time you've mentioned the JWs. Why? I don't know, but I suspect it is for some perceived parallel. I don't see any. >>>Matt.9;Mk.5;Lk.8 The woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science.The incident is there to show the hopelessness of her condition,desperation;<<< Er, perhaps also to show the limitations of medical science? The problem with this, is that you are asking us to believe your assessment over against someone else’s assessment? Why should your pronouncements be accepted? Give us a little more time hearing your "teaching" before you ask us to blindly accept your interpretation. Another take might be this: She ran out of money. If only she could have afforded better treatment she would not have been in this awful predicament. She should have listened to that guy who was selling gold investments. Who could have known that gold would appreciate so quickly! (Odysseus, you need to understand that I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek here.) But wait, let's look a little closer at the passage: Mat 9:22 "But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour." Now you say "... that Jesus healed her through determined faith." The passage says that it was her faith that made her whole. In reading the passage it seems as if Jesus had little to do with the healing apart from her faith embracing the fact that He was the Healer. Imagine that, Jesus the Healer. A point not lost on FA, since we heard it hundreds of times from HEF. In fact, there weren’t too many messages that didn't mention the importance of faith in the life of the believer. Knowing that faith only comes by the Word of God, HEF stressed the Word more than anything else. continued... | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.146.37.160 |
Yikes, I can't get past the passage and the misleading way you seem to want to handle it while at the same time denouncing Hobart Freeman. >>> You say "The woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science."<<< A re-reading may be in order... nowhere does it state that she was (quoting you) "SUFFERING FROM AN ISSUE OF BLOOD". God's word states that she "...had suffered many things of many physicians". Now, that kind of inaccuracy would not have been tolerated at FA. In fact, I've heard some of the five-fold get up and correct a seemingly minor point that they had made in a previous message, when the point was dealing with scripture. The integrity of the written Word was a standard that HEF held with the highest regard. >>>By the way,she didn't subsequently have to go through deliverance from medical science demons.<<< Yes sir, Mr. Scholar... if you say so, it must be true. >>>... medical science demons... To believe in them is as farfetched as the war in hell story of JDS teachers.They're only in the fertile imagination of FA.<<< Oh, sure thing. I'll scratch those from my notes. While I'm at it, what about the whole medical deity thing? Are they real? Your next "parallel" nearly made me choke, until I looked up the facts. You said: >>>Matt.9 doesn't mention physicians.Mark 5 is the only place where we're told she suffered at the hands of physicians.Luke 8 says she spent all her living on physicians.John doesn't mention the story at all.Hobart himself used the argument in Did Jesus Die Spiritually p.40 that since only two of the gospel writers recorded the Ps.22:1 passage,total abandonment of Jesus by the Father wasn't true.Had it been true he assumes all 4 gospels would have recorded it.Since the woman with the issue of blood story is in only 3 of the 4 gospels,and since only one of them tells us she suffered at the hands of physicians,one says she spent all she had on physicians,and the other doesn't mention the physicians at all,how then could Hobart and FA use this as a crucial prooftext to outright condemn doctors/ medical science, and to psychologically put pressure and fear in Christians not to seek medical help?<<< Again, you misrepresent the situation... here is the link to the relevant chapter of Did Jesus Die Spiritually. I'll let others determine for themselves the validity of your "parallel". http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/jdspoint05.htm continued | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.146.37.160 |
>>>He elevated "thou shalt not go to a doctor" to a doctrine to be wrapped around the necks of believers.He made people think they weren't even saved if they went to get help.FA members showed no compassion."<<< There is an element of truth to this statement. >>>Col.4:14Paul calls Luke a BELOVED PHYSICIAN. It's not a sin to be a doctor.Yes,all Luke reported in his inspired writings(Luke,Acts)is the power of God to heal people but the fact remains he was still identified by Paul as a physician.Paul mentioned one of his opposers as Alexander the coppersmith(II Tim.4:14).Does that mean the profession itself is somehow evil?Luke never renounced medicine or went through deliverance.No conflict in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs.<<< I'm weary of your constant need to parallelize everything... especially since there is precious little to parallel, and then the obligatory pontification: >>> "Luke never renounced medicine or went through deliverance.No conflict in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs."<<< How do you know what he did or did not renounce? No conflict? How do you know? continued... | ||
| william New member Username: william Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.146.37.160 |
Here is a parallel: Jesus never sinned. Luke never sinned. Using your own standard here... we don't have a record of Luke praying for repentance, therefore he never sinned, maybe Luke was a medical deity! That makes as much sense as you deducing that he never "renounced medicine" or "went through deliverance" and then concluding that there is "NO CONFLICT in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs"! Wow, who knew that using parallels could make one so bold! Go on, believe what you want about doctors, but don't try to twist scripture to justify your belief. Okay, I've gone through your first message The next one barely deserves mention since it is dealing with Christmas. It is true that this is a sacred holiday for millions, but it is also true that HEF didn't mention this issue for years, even though this was apparently one of the main reasons for dismissal from his seminary job. Afterwards, when he did mention it, he gave us the reasons he did not celebrate this most holy of days. To my knowledge, he never once legislated the issue, or spoke without saying something to the effect that FA didn't have a policy that you could not celebrate; it was left completely in our hands as to whether or not we would keep this wonderful day. I do notice you make another point of paralleling FA with the JWs in this second post. That's all I got to say bout that. Looking at post number 3 it seems we are due for another comparison between JWs and FA. >>>Hobart had no right, no authority and no business getting involved with public teachings in regards to the private, personal, intimate sexual practices of married couples. Matt. 19:6; Hebrews 13:4 The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did this and destroyed people's marriages.<<< Unless you are a little more specific, I'm not sure of your meaning here. Mt 19:6 Jesus is teaching in "public" on the subject of divorce and in Heb 13:4 it says "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." Do you think that ministers shouldn't preach/teach on these verses? Or just Hobart? I'm tired tonight, and to top it off in your next message you parallel FA with Christian Science: >>>Positive Thinking and Confession is really nothing more than Christian Science in a new dress...<<< I can't stomach another parallel tonight. Perhaps I'll have another go of it tomorrow. william | ||
| passin_thru New member Username: passin_thru Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 12.214.100.32 |
johiyom, thanks for the really great posts. I enjoyed reading your perspective. It appears the Lord has led you to a balanced understanding. One that’s worth sharing! _____ I would also like to note the ‘overcomers’ replies. They harp the same old refrain, “...looks like yer preachin' to any empty room, but soon, the rest of your unbeliever buddies will surely show up to pat you on the back for your rabid unbelief, and acceptance of the worlds' methodology for all solutions to lifes' problems.” They hafta be superior. They can’t accept anyone as a ‘believer’ if they don’t hold to Freeman. That, in itself, made FA a cult. They just don’t see the real path of love and selfless service the Lord Jesus taught us to tread. They still believe Freeman and their overcomer label is their ticket to great heavenly rewards. Their ‘deeper life’ hasn’t overcome sin in their life anymore than it’s given them the power to conjure miracles. I recently read hombre was divorced and remarried. Awhile back, I challenged him to a righteous living contest. I now see maybe why he didn’t want to play. And I read William wears bifocals. He told me he hadn’t seen a doctor or dentist in more than thirty years. I gather his glasses must be the drug store off-the-rack kind. Still, it begs the question. Where’s da faith? Overcomers are no better than anyone else. They just think they are. They lie to themselves even more than they lie to others. They’re afraid to stand naked (except for grace) before the Lord without the hypocrisy of an overcomer label and Hobart Freeman. _____ When all is considered, does it mean everything Freeman uttered was false? No! Every cult, sect and false teacher holds some truth. It’s what makes them 10,000 times more dangerous and deceptive than if they held no truth at all. As the Bible says, the final proof is in the fruit. In the case of Hobart Freeman’s faith formula, the fruit is bountifully bad. To be sure, today’s churches and Christians are too carnal. Such has been the case throughout history. There is no perfect earthly church or teacher. It’s wrong to even look for it. It’s wrong to hold that much faith in any organization or mortal man. It only leads to much suffering and a stunted relationship with God. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
I'd like to comment on this passage that is always used by FA people to justify not doing right by family members,separating oneself from family in the name of discipleship, deeper life, faith,following Jesus,etc. "...wasn't it Jesus who said "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. "?" Luke4:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. The same Jesus also told the legalistic Pharisees this: Mark7:9-13And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:But ye say,If a man shall say to his father or mother,[It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Christ was not for us alienating our family and not doing right by them, even if they were unbelievers, in the name of our great spirituality in following him. He also pointed out the greatest commandment was to love the Lord our God and like the first, the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves, so the statement about hating father and mother and loving son and daughter more than him cannot be taken and run amok with as a justification for some of the things cults such as FA did to alienate people from their relatives. He did not intend for us to literally HATE our fathers and mothers, sons and daughters. I alienated my family in the name of some of the crap I sought to live under Hobart's and FA's teachings, and I had so many regrets, even apologizing to my parents after leaving the FA satellite church. I hurt and worried them, but all that has changed for me and I am thankful. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
I don't believe in medical deities or medical science demons anymore than I believe that by obeying the laws of the land I'm making "gods" out of those in governmental authority/positions. The only medical deities/idols or demons are the ones in your weak, fearful, childish and superstitious minds; the deities you make. An idol is nothing. There is but one God to fear. | ||
| johiyom New member Username: johiyom Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Concerning Dr.Dowie's Attitude Toward The Medical Profession p.169 (Gordon Lindsay) Readers will have noted that Dr.Dowie severely criticized and took to task the medical practice of his day,which it must be admitted was rude and elementary in comparison with the status of the medical profession today.While the Scriptures plainly teach that the child of God, if and when sickness comes, should look to God rather than to man there is no wholesale condemnation of those who minister to the sick by natural means. Apparently Christ during his ministry showed a friendliness to the physicians, as he did to all who would receive him. Indeed Luke, the beloved physician wrote a Gospel that bears his name.It was in Divine healing that Christ, the Great Physician showed men "a more excellent way". Yet we must bear in mind that it has often been the case that when God seeks to re-establish some great truth in his church those instrumental in accomplishing this seem impelled by human necessity to almost over-emphasize certain phases of the truth, in order to awaken people and to counteract the damage caused by centuries of neglect or under-emphasis.There was certainly no ulterior motive in Dr.Dowie's hostility to the doctors.He was well aware that his opposition to them brought great persecution upon him from many quarters.His motive seems evident and sincere.He believed that those who desire divine healing must definitely transfer their faith in the "arm of the flesh" to that of faith in the Living God. Point made: Hobart had a predecessor-John Alexander Dowie. He is not unique in this respect. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 109 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.24.82 |
...soooooo...whatcher point? Gordon Lindsays' synopsis of Dowies' position on medical science, is exactly what I've been saying here now for 2 years, and from what you have written yourself, you concur. You'll look fruitlessly to find any post of mine condemning anyone who uses medical science for healing. .....so....the problem is? Here's a parallel. You and Alexander the coppersmith. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 110 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.24.82 |
...if you had/have a problem with that, you are really gonna have a problem with Jesus regulating your thought life. Matt. 5: 27-8 | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Is your thought life regulated hombre? And since you resort to name calling, how 'bout if I change yours to Hombre Freemanite? By the way, here you are again wasting your time and showing an interest on this thread with people like me as I predicted. As passin_thru stated: Their ‘deeper life’ hasn’t overcome sin in their life anymore than it’s given them the power to conjure miracles. I recently read hombre was divorced and remarried. Awhile back, I challenged him to a righteous living contest. I now see maybe why he didn’t want to play. And I read William wears bifocals. He told me he hadn’t seen a doctor or dentist in more than thirty years. I gather his glasses must be the drug store off-the-rack kind. Still, it begs the question. Where’s da faith? Overcomers are no better than anyone else. They just think they are. They lie to themselves even more than they lie to others. They’re afraid to stand naked (except for grace) before the Lord without the hypocrisy of an overcomer label and Hobart Freeman. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Here's another thought for hombre: I think the word "rabid" describes yourself best. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.24.82 |
I have never made the claim to being one. That's kinda up to Jesus to decide...and no, overcomers aren't intrinsically better than anyone else, the ground is level at the foot of the cross, and that would also include condescending intellectual blowhards like yourself, who also stand quite naked and revealed to the Lord. PS: You can call me whatever you like, enemy, as I will continue to do likewise. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
It's an extremely LONG topic to discuss so I won't go into it but I will just make the comment that as far as I'm concerned much of their superior, deeper life, discipleship, supposed, phoney total faith for healing mentality is a lot like Gnosticism. An elite who felt they had special revelations that only the intitiated had. They had a knowledge that sanctified them. Overcomers and manifested sons of God. They weren't content to be a "rank and file" simple believer in Christ. They are ABOVE the rest of us lowly, shallow,ignorant, unbelieving, faithless, milk and pablum, born again and sometimes Spirit-filled Christians, who trust in Christ for the complete forgiveness of our sins, weaknesses, failures, and broken lives, on our way to heaven; awaiting the kingdom of God, only by grace through faith- having nothing of which to boast. We can't measure up to THE LAW of Moses and can't measure up to the LAWS and mindset of Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly. And they can't go out into the world and fulfill Mark 16,though they quote it all the time(I don't see them picking up snakes and drinking poison like the Pentecostals in Kentucky,Tennessee,W.Virginia-if you're gonna be literal then BE LITERAL) healing the sick, cleansing lepers, raising the dead(not even their precious Hobart) as the apostles did. They aren't bringing them out of wheelchairs, opening the eyes of the blind, opening deaf ears, restoring maimed limbs,etc. They're just hunkered down in a mess of delusions and fixations. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
On a Positive Note: I have never seen a movement or church since(this includes the associated satellite churches) that encouraged Body Ministry the way Hobart and FA did. The gifts of the Spirit, primarily the utterance gifts of prophecy, divers kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues, to flow freely in worship services. It was absolutely priceless. Most other charismatic or pentecostal groups suppress this kind of ministry. Most of the ministry is done by those in the pulpit-pastors, teachers, or evangelists, some supposed guest prophet or apostle. The people sit there and sing/praise/worship as spectators, get up and put money in the plate, go up for prayer, laying on of hands, and go home. Yes, FA was special in its emphasis upon Body Ministry. The Worship, on the other hand, was really good but not necessarily the best, especially after Hobart got off into this crap about songs in minor keys. I found the praise/worship of Christ For the Nations to FAR surpass that of Faith Assembly. A sister at our meetings exposed me to CFN praise on cassette tape. The songs, the spontaneous singing in the Spirit. Anointed; powerful. Faith Assembly needed to lighten up, quit being so anal and serious about itself, and really get free in this area of worshipping God- letting the joy just flow. Scrutinizing every song's lyrics to make sure they passed the test of being "scriptural". Straining at gnats and swallowing whole camels. I commend FA for it's emphasis upon Body Ministry.} | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Intellectual???: Thank you. Paul was an intellectual who counted everything as dung to win Christ, yet God used HIM to write the vast majority of the New Testament that you cling to. Luke, the beloved Physician, was an intellectual, yet God used him to write the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts. So, if I'm an intellectual, then so be it. Sela! Hobart went to college and to seminary. I guess he was an intellectual too when it came to where he learned the foundational theological truths of the Bible, that he taught to you, even including Hebrew and Greek languages, while you sat their, in awe, hanging on every word he spoke. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
What ever happened to "Cincinnati Jim", as we nicknamed him? Never knew his real name. Just remember him going to Faith Assembly sometimes wearing maybe a cowboy hat. We called him that because he gave us the recipe for Cincinnati Chile. MMMM MMMM! Spaghetti, hamburger, kidney beans, diced onions, and grated cheddar cheese, with a lil' hot sauce on it. A home made version of Sky-Line Chile. I have good memories too. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Enemy? Hmmm? That's what some tribes referred to other tribes as: enemies or snakes. Most native american tribes referred to themselves simply as "THE PEOPLE". Their enemies, even white settlers, picked up the derogatory name of "enemy" to describe them. For instance, we call them Sioux. They are not Sioux. They refer to themselves as Lakota, Nakota, Dakota. I am Notoweega, but tribally I am Wapoo/Cusabo, Tsalagi/Cherokee, Iroquois/Haudenoshonee...people of the longhouse...to their foes it means snake, adder, enemy. You wanna be enemies? that's fine with me. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 112 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.24.82 |
Explain the term 'born again' and what that means; also, beginning with the creation account, give us understanding O wise one, how the supernatural is subject to the intellectual reasonings of man. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
John 3 KJV says born again Williams Translation says born from above ...of the water and Spirit regeneration simple And just as Moses in the desert lifted the serpent on the pole the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who trusts in Him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that He gave His Only Son, so that anyone who trusts in Him may never perish but have eternal life. I'm only allowed so much space to type on here and besides you wouldn't want to waste your time reading a long thread starting all the way from the book of Genesis(creation). "I have neither the interest nor the time anymore to waste on people who ought to know better" But here you are again. Amazing. Are you laying hands on the sick and bringing them out of wheelchairs? Opening the eyes of the blind and deaf ears, restoring the maimed, healing lepers, raising the dead, O overcoming, faith to move mountains, supernatural,gifted one? None of that TV preacher fake crap either. When you can do what Jesus and the apostles did I'll take you seriously. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 113 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.3.210 |
...likewise......but with this qualifier: All must be done in the name of Jesus the Christ, to and for His glory....as opposed to those 'who will arise in the last days showing signs and wonders to the effect that they would deceive even the elect if that were possible.'  ...I just felt that I had to make that clear, due to your abhorrance of demonstrating faith in the Words of Jesus the Christ. | ||
| johiyom Junior Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
All done in the Name of Jesus the Christ and for his glory? Are you sure? I thought Jesus said that people would come in His name.... claiming to be Christ and these things would be done in His name to deceive. So, it's not about the mere name of Jesus they claim to be calling upon or representing. | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
Hombre, Jesus himself essentially prayed 'if it be thy will' in Mt. 26:42 -- 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.' We know that the Son was perfectly conformed to the will of the Father and that Christ knew exactly what he was sent for, but he left us with this clear demonstration that it's perfectly fine to pray something contrary to God's will and qualify it with a 'nevertheless...' I can see where Freeman and you folks get all bent out of shape when people use the phrase and don't mean it, but you're bordering pretty close on implying that Jesus did something sinful, which is heresy as Freeman defined it in _Did Jesus Die Spiritually?_ Actually, that's a mistranslation of the Greek. Mk. 11:22 literally reads, 'Have faith OF God,' which is to say the stuff in the verses following is qualified by the condition that God spoke to you and delivered to you the faith to do such things. (Message edited by Christlicher_soldat on September 10, 2007) | ||
| healed Member Username: healed Post Number: 60 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 222.151.16.27 |
spankin that azz spankin that azz...  Hombre gettin it spanked good! | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.22.96 |
To compare the request of Jesus, in requesting 'if it be thy will' that the cup of his sacrificial offering might be taken away, yet all the while submitting to the will of the Heavenly Father, has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus' own teachings on faith, nor yet what His sacrifice bought for us. That is an absolutely perverse and corrupt twisting of the gospel, and perhaps the most classic case of taking something out of context that I have ever seen. I am going to have to find a way to honor you for being without a doubt the most bereft of spiritual and common sense among the foes of the gospel. It is no wonder at all, to me, that you ( collectively ) continue to stumble all over the teachings of Jesus that were reiterated by HEF at FA. I honestly don't think any of you could add 2 + 2 spiritually speaking.....I would add that perhaps you got your ignorance from your parents, but seeing as the majority of you despise the ground they walk on, I would have to conclude that the only mistake they made with you ( collectively ) was not in doning a rubber. In addition, moron, in accurately quoting the verse: 'have the faith OF God', you have neglected to recognize that is exactly what we are admonished to do. I don't remember God ever wrestling with Himself over whether something was His will or not....and might I quote what is that will? ...Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. ~ Mark 11: 22-4 ...among numerous others, and I'm not going into qualifiers here, besides, you have set yourself up to be an authority and ought to know what the first principles of the oracles of God are, yet you lead people astray with your dead denominational errors. ....and BTW: Unhealed, you're still a moron too,: I would call you 'children', but children have within themselves the capacity to learn. | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
I would not advise rubbing it in. It only reinforces his beliefs that the outside world is hatefully hostile to his cause. There is no formula for extricating someone from a sect like Freeman's, but contributing to the forces that maintain their thinking certainly won't help. (Message edited by Christlicher_soldat on September 11, 2007) | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
Hombre, “christlicher Soldat” is German for “Christian soldier.” It has nothing to with licking. I am not a member of any denomination, connexion of churches, pseudo-denomination (e.g. churches of Christ), or ecumenical movement -- I don’t even agree with the doctrine of entire sanctification as it is defined by the Holiness Christians with whom I assemble. My tutor is God’s infallible Word, not catechisms and statements of doctrine. Thus, you have no grounds on which to accuse me of “dead denominational errors.” I agree that Christ’s great prayer has little to do with his teachings on faith, but not nothing. However, that is beside the point, which is that even when Christ knew his Father’s will, he prayed for a possibility, which is essentially what ‘if it be Thy will’ signifies. Why would he do this, especially if he knew that ‘it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins’ (Heb. 10:4)? I believe he was demonstrating the same point he made in Mt. 26:53, that even though he had power from on High, he had to conform to his Father’s will. But whatever your answer, it is clear that his prayer for a possibility was not done in sin, and a categorical smear against all such who pray in like manner is not in line with the Word. The philosophical considerations of Mk. 11:22-24 are too deep to get into. My point is that faith is not something that’s self-generated, and the passage is not a license to ask for anything. ‘Whatsoever ye desire’ should be in line with what the Father desires. Otherwise it is twisting God’s arm, and He does not take kindly to that. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 128 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.22.96 |
Well it's good to know that we now have a new representative of God on the earth that presumes to speak for him in contradiction to what He said on earth in the person of Jesus Christ in Mark 11: 22-24, among numerous others. Conditions to receiving are a given, and the only other factor, which might include by way of illustration, but not limited to, James 4: 3, which states: Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. The problem with the beliefs that you represent is not that you are not sufficiently pious, but that your beliefs do not agree with the Biblical narrative. Many do not receive for one reason or another, but there is always a reason, which is not about wavering in ones faith about what one has prayed for, otherwise there is no point in praying to a capricious God, who will not do what He has said that He would, namely, as Jesus Himself declared : 'Have I not said: Ye are gods?', It is about the dominion that Jesus purchased for us, and about subduing it in His name, for His glory...and answered prayer glorifies God....the phrase 'if it be thy will' only provides an excuse for failure, and renders the true Spirit of Christianity powerless....which is where the church has been for the last 2,000 years, with people like you attempting to continue that pattern and instill a continuance in unbelief. | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
Hombre, I am not German, and most Germans repudiate their country’s dark role in modern history. I appreciate their language and their role in Protestant history and find it relevant to study German theology’s collapse at the turn of the last century. Perhaps I was insufficiently clear in where the emphasis fell in the sentence, ‘the passage is not a license to ask for anything.’ The idea intended to be conveyed was, the passage is not a license to ask for just anything you please in and of yourself. ‘Whatsoever ye desire’ is predicated on the condition that this desire is consonant with the desire of the Father. Acknowledging God’s absolute sovereignty in the matter does not make Him out to be capricious but affirms His authority. With regards to ‘Ye are gods,’ take a look at Ps. 82, from which Jesus was quoting, and you will discover what he was talking about: ‘God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.’ The ‘gods’ the Psalmist was talking about refers to the judges appointed to judge Israel according to the Law. The entire context confirms this. The words for ‘gods’ here, in Hebrew, is ELOHIM. Though this is a common word for God himself, it is occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates. The context of the Psalm bears this out. The ‘gods’ then are these unjust judges who are lording it over God’s people and oppressing then. Regardless of your status in Israel, says the Lord, you are nothing but men and shall die as such under judgment. ‘I have said, Ye are gods; and all you are children of the Most High. But ye shall die like mere men.’ Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for their unjust and irrational appraisal of Him. He was telling them that they were no better than those unjust Judges in Ps. 82. In effect, he was saying something like, ‘You hypocrites. You would sooner acknowledge those unjust judges as being from God, rather than One such as I who has proven His righteousness by His miracles.’ His point was NOT to illustrate any dominion he gave us. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
According to John Davis, Freeman came to be "deeply influenced" by Kenneth E. Hagin, John Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, T.L. Osborn and E.W. Kenyon, who were leaders of the Word of Faith Movement. However Freeman explicitly rejected their Doctrine of Identification, which asserted that Jesus died spiritually, and he also repeatedly warned his congregation about the leaders and their teachings.Freeman's opposition to that doctrine was confirmed by Daniel McConnell.However McConnell also described Freeman as a "renegade preacher of the Faith movement" who "eventually broke with the other Faith teachers". This is interesting because I visited the Glory Barn in 1976 and I clearly remember seeing books and tapes by Kenneth Hagin for sale on a table. Hobart had to have known back then that men like Hagin taught JDS but it was OK to sell his teachings at the Glory Barn while his own faith teaching ministry was growing in influence. Later, in essence, he told his followers they shouldn't listen to or read such men as Hagin. I stand on my statement that Freeman got his Positive Thinking and Confession(and Faith Message) from Hagin. Has anyone read a book by Judith Matta, called: The Born Again Jesus of Word-Faith Teachings(1985)? She exposes and debunks the revived gnosticism of word faith teachings. | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
I have seen Matta's book cited in Travers and Jewel's van der Merwe Strange Fire: The Rise of Gnosticism in the Church, which you can find here, but I have not hunted her book down yet to read it. Another good resource is Rafael Martinez's website, which is unique in that it's not a stuffy Reformed or Fundamental Baptist exposing the heresies of Word of Faith movement, but a classical Pentecostal pastor who takes a firm stand against using social pressure to drive people into their faith. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 129 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.14.107 |
...my response to the present ignorance can be found at: http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&goto=652&S=43750819d5a32c663796c0b282d1e58b#msg_652 | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
Hombre, 1Cor. 3:21-23 has nothing to do with dominion, either. Carefully examine the flow of the entire chapter and you'll discover that Paul was telling his audience that all things are ministrations to them. This was half his purpose in writing the epistle -- to do away with the factional nonsense of rallying behind one apostle or the other when all of them where contributing to their reception and maintenance of the gospel. You will also discover in Rom. 8, if you carefully read v.23, that the adoption is not something we have actually attained yet because it is defined as the redemption of our bodies. That is, it's a status bestowed upon us when Christ returns, resurrects the righteous, and installs his Millennial kingdom, during which those resurrected shall reign with him, according to Rev. 20:4)\. The ‘Spirit of adoption’ is merely the earnest or down payment of that inheritance (2Cor. 1:22). I did not brand you a Gnostic. I commented on johiyom’s post. Please be courteous enough not to misrepresent my statements. I do not by any means deny the power of godliness. What I deny is adopting the mindset of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. My position is not mediated by experience, either. For instance, I believe speaking in tongues is for today. I have never genuinely experienced it, neither in myself nor in others, but I find no convincing evidence for its cessation in the objective testimony of the Bible, and so I believe they continue, recognizing that the plethora of counterfeits do not obviate the real thing. Also, please read the site I referred to. The ‘social pressure’ against which this preacher stands is particular to the ‘altar call’ and to the tongues-speaking experience. Namely, he argues that the altar call should be a soul-searching experience, not an episode where the assembly crowds around you and prays for you until you stand up and announce you’ve received the anointing. This is to be distinguished from Reformed and Fundamental Baptist traditions which condemn the altar call altogether as a faith-generating ritual on par with Roman Catholic mass. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 130 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.41.157 |
YOU go carefully examine the flow of the entire Bible, intellectual unbeliever, for it IS as I have proclaimed....speaking of the plethora of counterfeits, you fit well within their camp. | ||
| passin_thru Intermediate Member Username: passin_thru Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 12.214.100.32 |
“It IS as I have proclaimed.” I sure wish Freeman’s overcomers could realize their own idiocy. Is this the way you talk to your ex-wife and family who years ago wrote you off? Johiyom and Christlicher_soldat provided answers to some Biblical questions you’ve asked for a long time. They offered clear, concise and complete answers. As always, you just turn a deaf ear. You are utterly terrified of the truth. Anyone with prowess in written word and biblical knowledge scares you to death. You’re afraid they’ll get you to question your long dead leader. Remember a while ago, I posted about my Bible debates with the overcomers in my family? I wrote that when they could not refute the evidence, their last resort was to say I was of the devil sent to deceive them. They would literally put their fingers in their ears and speak in tongues to drown out my words. Don’t be like my sad sack relatives. Be humble and open enough to let someone have an impact. God didn’t start or stop with Hobart Freeman in some Indiana cornfield. Jesus calls everyone to believe in Him and be free to love Him and others. Healed is belittled for trivial errors in grammar. Yet, when Johiyom and Christlicher_soldat demonstrate advanced writing ability and biblical expertise, you brand them as intellectual unbelievers. Is this how you want to live your entire life, name calling, insignificant fault finding and condemnation for everyone who does not pay homage to Hobart Freeman? If so, then (like my relatives) you’re shut off from mankind, Christendom and God. Those of us you malign here in FACTNet are simply pointing out the fallacies of Hobart Freeman, his faith formula and Faith Assembly. We tell of the elitism, suffering and needless death. We tell our story. This is Hobart Freeman’s legacy. It’s what he made it. Don’t blame us. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 419 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.25.75 |
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| odysseus Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.105.58 |
Relevant commentary? Common Hombre, these guys have given you so much ‘relevant commentary’ that they’ve outmatched you. I think you’re out of your pay grade dude. You’ve also proved by your ad hominem attacks on them that your neither what you say you are and very possibly mentally deranged. Does your buddy William (you know the one with the magical glasses) get on you about your lack of civility? I doubt it. He’s so deluded by your religious spirit that he’ll believe any excuse you tell him. For the folks out in Facnet land here’s just a few lines from a post he made over at ‘Overcomersonline.com. Please go over there and read all of it. It’s called, ‘WHAT I DO WHAT I DO’, this is scary. See below. Why I do what I do. [message #639] Fri, 07 September 2007 10:04 Overcomersonline.com Hombre Messages: 175 Registered: February 2006 Senior Member “The question of the ages. I must have a reason for crucifying with my own hands, and admittedly with a restrained amount of glee, those who enjoy crucifying the faith that was once delivered to us. I even call them names....like moron, among others. Is it an 'eye for an eye' kind of thing? ..and am I totally in the flesh about it? Well, I've got my reasons, and it really boils down to this: I can forgive others for anything, as the Lord has done, and does for me, but what I can not tolerate is the twisting of scripture to meet the lifestyle requirements of whoever decides to do whatever they want with it.” END OF EDITED POST The above is just the first few lines he wrote. Hey Hombre, you like “Crucifying with my own hands” do you? Folks these are ranting's of a pathological hate filled bitter man that lashes out behind the safety of his keyboard. Hombre do you like to fantasize about ‘crucifying us’? If so you ain't the real article. Like I said in the past, ain’t no overcomers here, just a few overcant’s. You're more than just a coward. (Message edited by odysseus on September 18, 2007) | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
For certain, hombre, stop glorying in men, stop glorying in Hobart Freeman(I Cor. 3)- an "intellectual" theologian who sought to understand and apply Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, although you won't admit it. Obviously it was Hobart's intellectual background and Biblical scholarship(he even being a man who learned from others) that was a foundation for him refuting JDS. Just how extensive was his library in his home? Probably filled with volumes of interlinears, concordances, lexicons, commentaries, Bible dictionaries, and the writings of numerous theologians- you name it. A man who spent 15-16 hours a day studying and researching, as well as praying. Why is it that you attack anyone you perceive as "intellectual" yet embrace Hobart's intellectual scholarship without question? The context of I Cor. 3, as christlicher_soldat pointed out, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with our dominion. Paul was talking about heresies or factions in the Corinthian Church over men called to preach or teach. This is EXACTLY what FA members WERE and ARE guilty of...glorying in Hobart Freeman, as the Corinthians did over Paul, Apollos and Cephas. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and rebuking them for their lack of faith in Him, though they have seen His miracles performed, and also reminds them that their own law refers to men as 'gods', about which they should not be offended by Jesus being referred to as the Son of God....and Jesus' reference to Psalm 82:6, most certainly does refer to exactly what it says it does......the dominion that God has given us, not only over the earth ( Gen 1:27-31 ) but also all things, whether they be life or death, things present or things to come(I Cor.3:21-23)" "their own law refers to men as 'gods'..." Ps.82 and John 10. The use of applying the term "god" to men is limited or rare in the Bible. These passages cannot be used to teach in broad sweeping terms that all men are gods. This is dangerous. Ps. 82 is talking about the judges or magistrates,on account of the dignity and honor of the positions, offices they held; only because the law/commands or Word of God were entrusted to them. Ps.82 was a rebuke to these men who were not faithfully representing God, as Moses (Exodus 4:16; 7:1) in actions and words. Jesus knew Ps.82 was a rebuke and he was rebuking and challenging the unbelieving Jews(Pharisees) who had accused him of blasphemy. These leaders failed to do and say as God had appointed them. They judged, led and ruled unjustly. Read the whole Psalm and see what they were failing to do. Ps. 82 says I said ye are gods and all of you are children of the Most High but you shall die like men. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Perhaps we should look at Genesis 3:And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die(a lie): For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil(truth). And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever*:Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life*. *Gen.2:17 thou shalt surely die. *Gen.3:3 lest ye die. *Ps.82:7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. "Jesus' reference to Psalm 82:6, most certainly does refer to exactly what it says it does......the dominion that God has given us..." John 10 Barne's Notes on the New Testament: You charge me with blasphemy. The foundation of that charge is the use of the name God or the Son of God applied to myself; yet that same term is applied in the Scriptures to magistrates. The use of it there shows that it is right to apply it to those who sustain important offices. And especially you, Jews, ought not to attempt to found a charge of blasphemy on the application of a word to the Messiah which in your own Scriptures is applied to all magistrates. Ps. 82 isn't teaching about God giving US "dominion" over anything or anybody but about men doing right and speaking right as God's representatives on earth. The only one with dominion is God himself. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty. He judgeth among the gods. Arise, O God, judge the earth:for thou shalt inherit all nations. Certainly Jesus was not like the unjust judges/ magistrates- those to whom the Word of God merely came, but he was the Word of God Incarnate itself. He was sanctified and sent by the Father and was doing the works of his Father and speaking the words of his Father rightly. Judging righteously unlike the magistrates then or the religious leaders opposing him. Rev.11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. God certainly gave man dominion over the earth(Gen.1:26-27) but MAN LOST THAT THROUGH THE FALL. Only when Christ returns will that dominion be restored to redeemed man. Rev.5:10;20:6;Matt.5:5 | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"...the typical crapola you unbelievers who label yourselves as Christians attempt to shove down the throats of the rest of us..." I think it's the other way around in many respects. How much typical Hobart Freeman crapola was made into doctrinal issues on par with the doctrine of Christ, to be shoved down people's throats, as if someone who didn't line up with it wasn't even considered to be a Christian at all; wasn't even saved??? If I am an unbeliever, then it's because I don't believe everything Hobart taught was the pure Word of God. It may make me an unbeliever in Hobart Freeman, but certainly not an unbeliever in Jesus Christ or the Word of God. Typical twist of Scripture: II Tim.3:5 This power is often made into miraculous power, healing power, signs and wonders power. We who don't agree with everything FA and Hobart Freeman are accused of having a form of godliness but denying the power that the faith message is supposed to produce. Paul is talking about the power of godliness not the power of faith or the power of the Spirit to produce the supernatural-healings, miracles,casting out demons, raising the dead, etc. He is talking about men's characters, their actions, works, etc. | ||
| passin_thru Intermediate Member Username: passin_thru Post Number: 108 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 12.214.100.32 |
Johiyom (et al.), Hombre has challenged people several times to explain Mark 11:24. Poster Mark1124 takes this verse as his moniker. The ‘overcomers’ in my family continually dwell and put great emphasis on this single Bible verse. It seems to be their mantra for belief and life. Yet, they totally ignore all passages like Matthew 25:34-45 and Romans 13:9-10. I’m interested in your take. P.S. I never attended FA. However, I have four relatives who became ‘overcomers’ through cassette tapes. Two indirectly died because of it. They refused all medical care until it was too late. One is now totally blind from untreated cataracts. Each of them cut themselves off from all friends and family decades ago. The statement I’ll always remember came during my last visit. They literally hissed, “Jesus… You’re all about Jesus. There’s more to it than just Jesus!” | ||
| passin_thru Intermediate Member Username: passin_thru Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 12.214.100.32 |
P.S. (#2) Odysseus, it’s a shame your previous post above will get lost in the midst of other posts. It deserves it’s own thread. That way, it’ll always be a lead post. You could title it ‘Overcomers: In Their Own Words’ or whatever. Maybe you could also include a link to Hombre’s whole post as reference. Nothing is as revealing as one’s own words. Anyway, it’s just a suggestion. Take it with a grain of salt. | ||
| odysseus Member Username: odysseus Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 74.133.105.58 |
That’s a great idea but since it was your idea feel free to do it. I’m getting to feel like what Micah said in another post that, “this site is poison to me”. I’m getting to know that feeling. I’m needing a break from Hombre’s hate. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 420 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.19.76 |
Gee, I think I'll take everyones advice. 1. For now on, the doctors will be the true messengers and healers sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself. 2. Doctrine will no longer be as important as embracing anyone and everyone, regardless of their belief system. 3....and finally, we'll just throw out the entire idea of faith in God for anything, because as we all know, it never works for anything; therefore, we can all simply retire back to the world, and enjoy the tasty fruits of drunkeness, fornications, reveling and stealing from one another, and not just a little but as much as is possible. The new order of the day shall be greed and selfishness, and those who name the name of Jesus for anything besides a curseword will be hung. ...I can't wait to see you morons misqoute and misinterpret me on that. (Message edited by hombre on September 21, 2007) | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
First time here...I've been reading everything and, as a "disinterested" outsider (once involved in the International Churches of Christ movement and now going to the Catholic Church), I know that Hombre has said that he doesn't condemn anyone for going to the doctor and that he simply puts his faith in God first. Compared to some of the relatives I've read about in these posts, Hombre is a voice of reason. My exposure to FA, of course, is very limited: I've emailed Joe Brenneman some questions and he emailed back some answers. In one of HF's pamphlets now online that warns against the occult and the like, medicine isn't mentioned as a taboo treatment. It seems, again to an outsider like me, that people mistakingly interpreted HF as outright condemming all medicine in all cases and he may not have been aware of the extremes people went to (Joe also believes this). Anyway, Joe seems like a very level-headed guy, not given to the fanaticism that existed before. I think that Hombre's in the same league, within the FA context, but I understand that there has been hurt and anguish due to slavish legalism. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 421 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.19.76 |
Yes, finally an outsider who has read the wrapping paper correctly. My point is that the problem had more to do with peer pressure, than pulpit pressure. Fact is, people don't like blaming themselves or their family for their own problems, shortsightedness, failings, sins, whatever, and now that Hobart is dead, he becomes an easy scapegoat to dump their refuse on. Yes, Hobart pushed the idea that the atonement of Christ included payment in full to restore us to not only a right standing with God in righteousness through Jesus Christ, but also bought back all of the benefits that the Adamic fall from grace lost, and the curse of disobedience to Moses law, including but not limited to: health, healing and prosperity, all obtained through faith in God, as demonstrated by Jesus Himself when He walked the earth....asking the disciples where their faith was, when He was called upon for deliverance, healing, etc. However, none of us were ever under any 'law' or 'commandment' by FA or HEF, that we could not either go to a doctor, or use medicine. That is where peer pressure came in, and subsequent tragedies. This is where I and the kids from FA here disagree. I believe that everyone is personally responsible for their own decisions. They find it easier to escape personal responsiblity for their lives by accusing others for their problems. I don't find that to be a victorious spirit. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
I'm not saying that everything HEF did was exemplary because he died unnecessarily, in my opinion, due to refusing medical treatment, but that was his choice for himself. About restoring Eden, I have a problem with that, though the Kingdom is here on a spriritual basis. Adam and Eve weren't supposed to die physically but they sinned and brought death on themselves. We die. I can't see an Edenic restoration anywhere in the Bible, though Jesus is the new Adam. We're not new Adams are we? Jesus said we'd do greater things...but I haven't figured that one out yet. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 422 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.19.76 |
HEF was willing to believe in what he considered to be true, to the death if necessary, and you are correct...that was his choice...but also if one looks at many of the 20th century 'faith healing' ministries, notably Oral Roberts, one sees a sort of process of decompostion of 'healing doctrine' from God to medical science. IMO, Hef would rather die than become compromised in his beliefs, and especially as a pastor in front of the world...and as such, I see that as honorable on one hand, yet full of religious pride on the other. God is the judge, not me. On the other issue, I see Edenic restoration as being completed in reality after tribulation during the millenium ( classic pre-millenialist here ), but encouraged as a legal right, to obtain through the force of faith in the here and now individually, as per the teachings of Jesus ( Matt 11:12, Mark 11:24, John 14:12, as well as the numerous accounts where Jesus either explains that someone was healed by their faith, or rebuking others for their lack of faith, even in the face of ridiculous circumstances, like the storm on Galilee ). We may not be 'The' new adam, but we are 'sons of God, heirs and joint heirs of Christ, to whom have been given all things, whether life or death, things present or things to come, etc. The question remaining to me, you and many others is 'the why'. If you are like me, you believe Jesus to be the Christ and the story to be true. That leaves us with a problem as to why things aren't/haven't happened the way we assume they should from what we read in the Bible. If I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't be here talking about it, I'd be emptying hospitals. ...so then, I am in agreement with your conclusion...it is something I haven't figured out yet, however, I am not going to deny what I have read to be exactly what it says, and attempt to make excuses for myself and it, but rather I will continue to seek solutions in my own life and before God as to the answer. I may never know until the hereafter, or even then, but I don't find consolation in the denial of what is clearly stated. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
Yes, HEF sure took faith healing to its logical extreme...but I don't think that seeking medical help is spiritually compromising IF one thanks the human agency ALONE (render unto Caesar...). Then what is one left to thank God for? Well, besides life itself, we are told that in this life there will be trials and tests, though not beyond what we're ABLE bear, though possibly be beyond what we're WILLING to bear. I'm not minimizing blessings, but the "name it and claim it" can be taken too far, as has been and is the case with some preachers. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 423 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.19.76 |
..you seem to be a very level headed person. ...yes...willing to bear is the problem, isn't it? Speaking as someone who sat under the HEF/FA ministry for 10 years, and was on multiple automatic tape mailings, I say this with the most absolute confidence that I can have: FAs position toward the topic of 'name it and claim it' was not at all the same as other charismatic 'faith' teachers. It was a balanced teaching that taught faith to the glory of God for everything on one side of the coin, with consecration and the idea that one should not 'claim' things to consume it upon their own lusts ( James 4:3 ) on the other. In fact, I remember Steve Hill ( one of the outreach teachers ) on MANY occasions reminding us to NOT be like Jimmy, whose vocabulary consisted of 'Gimme, Gimme, Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee'. I have never claimed a Ferrari, even though, to this day, I'd like to have one....but I really don't need it..I'd only get myself into trouble with it anyway, which is probably why, God hasn't just decided to dump one one me anyway. ..one last note: are you aware that by speaking to me civily, you risk attainment of pariah status? | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
Who cares about what you call "pariah" status? I'm speaking man to man (hombre--yeah you get it). I think I can relate to you even though I'm married to a Catholic breadwinner--opposite of what HEF would envision. As for gimme gimme--have you heard about that stupid "The Secret" gimmick that Oprah fell for? Now that's Satanic paganism if there ever there was any. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 58 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"I've emailed Joe Brenneman some questions and he emailed back some answers. In one of HF's pamphlets now online that warns against the occult and the like, medicine isn't mentioned as a taboo treatment. It seems, again to an outsider like me, that people mistakingly interpreted HF as outright condemming all medicine in all cases and he may not have been aware of the extremes people went to (Joe also believes this). Anyway, Joe seems like a very level-headed guy, not given to the fanaticism that existed before. I think that Hombre's in the same league, within the FA context, but I understand that there has been hurt and anguish due to slavish legalism." There's no need to interpret or misinterpret anything about what Hobart taught concerning medical science/doctors. I was a member of one of the associated groups for almost 10 years and got the tapes. I heard what the man taught. It wasn't on the occult bondage tract. You need to listen to what he taught on tape over the years. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. There's no mistake about it. The extremes to which people went were HIS extremes and HIS teachings. To pretend like he wasn't aware of it is in my honest opinion deliberate lying or sincere delusion. People will do and say anything to wash over his responsibility as a pastor and leader for the words that came out of his mouth on a weekly basis. Luke 19:22 out of his own mouth....... (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 22, 2007) | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Whole religious groups have been built on isolated texts to the exclusion of everything else the Bible teaches. For example, Pentecostal Oneness have built their entire soteriology on Acts 2:38. Word of Faith teachers have built an entire atonement error basically on II Cor.5:21. Should we build our entire theology and Christianity upon Mark 11:24 in the exclusive context of divine healing? The Gospel does not rise and fall on divine healing or faith for divine healing. Divine healing is not an end in itself. That is the problem I see with FA. Everything WASN'T about Jesus, the furthering of the Gospel and bringing men to Christ. It was about having faith for divine healing. It became an end in itself. The ME syndrome. Isn't there more to Christianity than that? Five million people died and went to hell and all you're concerned about is not going to a doctor and believing God for a healing to prove... whatever. Then it doesn't work. Something is amiss. Out of sync with God's greater will and purposes. What you stated passin-thru: "The ‘overcomers’ in my family continually dwell and put great emphasis on this single Bible verse. It seems to be their mantra for belief and life. Yet, they totally ignore all passages like Matthew 25:34-45 and Romans 13:9-10." This is very similar to what Jesus told the legalists of his day- you pay tithe of mint, anise and cumin and omit the weightier matters of the law, justice mercy and faith. These ought you to have done and not left the other undone. Having said that, the problem is not with Mark 11:24. The problem is with human imbalance, extremes. Going to seed on a given truth. The question is the application of certain principles of truth in our daily lives. Did any of the apostles take Jesus statement and proceed then to move literal mountains by faith? Not even in the book of Acts, after receiving the Holy Spirit, do we find where one of them attempted it. In fact, not one of them attempted to even curse a fig tree by faith as Jesus had demonstrated. I greatly enjoyed listening to Malcolm Webber's online teaching concerning the sovereignty of God and having an aggressive faith, keeping the two truths in tension and balance. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"Joe seems like a very level-headed guy, not given to the fanaticism that existed before." If Hobart was alive right now, FA would be gone from worse to "worser yet". If Joe isn't given to the fanaticism that existed before then he's not living what Hobart taught. If he's not given to the fanaticism then he's admitting and KNOWS GOOD AND WELL that what Hobart taught was fanatical to begin with, legalistic, impractical, imbalanced, extreme, and not really a "pure" Word of God. And dangerous. Joe won't be "persecuted"(I put that in quotes for a darn good reason) as the pastor of FA because children will not be dying under his watch. The problem was all those yes men who couldn't or wouldn't stand up to Hobart while he was alive. No one kept that man in check and someone should have. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"For now on, the doctors will be the true messengers and healers sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself." hombre, Were the orthopaedic shoe makers who helped Hobart walk better because one of his legs was shorter than the other due to polio the true messengers and healers sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself? Since these practitioners are medically science related and work with the medical profession(I used to work at a Brace and Limb company which made braces, artificial limbs, and orthopaedic shoes for various needs) was Hobart guilty of relying on Medical Deities and not exercising faith in God? When your car get's "sick" do you lay hands on it and claim it's healing? Or do you go to the true messengers and car fixers, called mechanics, sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself? So you'd show more mercy and have more compassion on your car than you would your own body? Or as FA members did, their own children's bodies. When you get a splinter in your finger do you just rebuke it and claim healing, or do you get maybe a needle and pair of tweezers to pull it out, put some disinfectant on it and bandage it if the wound is bad enough? If you were stung by a honey bee would you leave the stinger in and just believe God for it to stop pumping venom in you or would you pull it out? Oh my, you'd be guilty of practicing medicine on yourself and not trusting God for your healing by doing something about it. Oh faithless and perverse generation. Why is it that doctors somehow are enemies of God and faith, diametrically opposed to the Gospel, working against God's will? Why does there have to be a contradiction and conflict? Believe me, I used to think like that. I was part of the FA movement.I heard what was taught.Now I look back and see it was ridiculous.Crazy.But,I grew up.It took living a little longer, getting older, stepping back to question things, and objectively looking at what was going on for me to see the obvious contradictions. What are you going to do with this when you get to the eternal state? Rev.22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life,clear as crystal,proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.In the midst of the street of it,and on either side of the river,[was there]the tree of life,which bare twelve [manner of] fruits,[and]yielded her fruit every month:and the leaves of the tree[were]for the healing of the nations. "I can't use those leaves. That's medicine and not trusting in God for healing!" "That leaves us with a problem as to why things aren't/haven't happened the way we assume they should from what we read in the Bible." I have the answer for you: The problem may be in the assuming and in the way you're reading the Bible. Exegesis vs. Eisegesis. Maybe doctors and medicine aren't the little satanic antichrists we've made them out to be in our minds. Maybe they serve some purpose in God's plan and scheme of things afterall. Now you go right ahead, anoint with oil and lay hands on the sick and let the Holy Spirit work it all out in people's lives. Just go right on showing love and compassion, and doing good works, telling of God's love and Christ dying for mankind, awaiting the kingdom of God, and not making an issue out of the particulars of how somebody gets better. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"Yes Men" Some of you may refer to such as "Brown Nosers". On my job we call them "Danglers" because they are so far up the foreman's behind that all you see is their legs dangling out. ROFLOL | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"... but encouraged as a legal right, to obtain through the force of faith in the here and now individually, as per the teachings of Jesus ( Matt 11:12, Mark 11:24, John 14:12, as well as the numerous accounts where Jesus either explains that someone was healed by their faith, or rebuking others for their lack of faith, even in the face of ridiculous circumstances, like the storm on Galilee )." Isn't it interesting that Paul the Apostle didn't rebuke the storm in Acts 27, after all, he knew Jesus rebuked the disciples for their unbelief and fear during the storm on the sea of Galilee? I'm sure he had more faith than Hobart, you or me put together and then some. Paul ended up shipwrecked. Where was his faith? Oh, maybe God had already revealed something else to him concerning the matter. Does God have bigger plans, weightier purposes above and beyond our supposed exercising of the force of faith to do this or that? In other words, faith cannot be reduced to a formula concering all situations and circumstances in life. Reducing faith to simplistic, trite little steps in a manual and we'll get this, and we'll get that, this will happen and that will happen. Hmmm? Force of faith and going around commanding God concerning the works of his hands, as has been so misconstrued, just as Malcolm Webber pointed out. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
I agree that HF was ultimately responsible for the goings-on (and tragedies) at FA, but another theory I have (I may be way off) is that he was in such a different league with his ThD and publishing that his listeners couldn't keep up, but his yes men didn't tell him that they were suffering. Maybe he was so busy listening to himself that he didn't really listen to (or see) his congregants. Although the orthopaedic shoe is definitely in the same category as glasses, braces, and other paramedical devices, did it require someone with a "dr." title to prescribe it? Optometrists are doctors of optometry, though not medical drs.; dentists are doctors of dentistry, again not medical drs., but there may have been confusion among the congregation and they said "when in doubt do without." Who initiates the process of fitting an orthopaedic shoe? Does a podiatrist have to? Podiatrists are medical doctors. Ironic that HF may have visited a dr.--of course he could've done this before his conversion--while congregants stopped seeing optometrists and dentists, not to mention drs. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 424 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.251.231.80 |
Thanks for your recent essays on encouraging unbelief. A+ on that effort, moron. What do you do with the entirely selfish and stupid act of Peter getting out of the boat and walking on water, for no other purpose than some adolescent desire?...and yet we have Jesus rebuking him because he ultimately failed though for a time, it worked. ...and once again, here's the quintessential backslider, Peter, AFTER the resurrection, healing people through his shadow and raising the dead. I call at least the shadow thing, 'greater works', since I didn't see Jesus doing that. I bet Peter got some gold stars on his celestial report card for that....unlike you, busily attempting to turn men away from the exercize of faith in God for anything other than the initial act of accepting Jesus as the Christ. I betcher gittin' some failin' marks there, pard. If it were up to you, Israel would have perished at the Red Sea crossing. Compared to the heroes of faith, you are looking more like Dathan every day. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 425 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.251.231.80 |
....and sadly, that is to your shame. You ought to know better. (Message edited by hombre on September 22, 2007) | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"Although the orthopaedic shoe is definitely in the same category as glasses, braces, and other paramedical devices, did it require someone with a "dr." title to prescribe it?" Yes, doctors prescribe it and CPO's and LPO's fill the prescription. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
Then surely he acquired his shoe before his conversion. I haven't heard his tapes or read his books. The group I was in (International Churches of Christ) emphasized Acts 2:38, saying that you baptize (immerse) disciples only. Also, they didn't believe in tongues because, according to them, "when the perfect comes the imperfect shall disappear (NIV)" (don't know where in Paul's epistles this is--Corinthians?): the imperfect being tongues and signs, the perfect being the Word of God aka the Bible. You could say they worshipped the Bible, much as overcomers worship faith. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Well I Cor. 13 says when that which is perfect is come then that which is IN PART(not imperfect) will be done away with. Obviously that which is perfect hasn't come because we don't see face to face yet. Paul is not talking about the Bible/Word of God but when the kingdom comes. Jesus hasn't returned yet. I Cor.14 and Eph. 4 teaches that God set in the church the ministry gifts; a five-fold ministry and that the gifts of the Spirit are for the church. They didn't pass away. Again, that which is perfect hasn't come yet. Another thought: hombre, Nothing is to my shame and I DO KNOW BETTER. That's why I got the heck away from all yall- both pulpit pressure and peer pressure. They worked hand in hand. Two sides of the same coin. hombre Christian wanted to be number 1 but his kingdom never comes, thy will be done he couldn't stand the glory, he would be 2nd to none the way hombre tells the story, Hobart's his Only Son | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 426 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.251.231.80 |
....a theory that I have, is that HEF was perhaps out of his league himself. You and I both agree about what the Bible says, and so did HEF, but unlike us, HEF wasn't willing to fail to live another day, and perhaps come a little closer to understanding the mystery. Faith, as HEF himself said, can take a lifetime. One can't get it in a moment of crisis. ...we don't have the benefit, like Peter, of having been able to learn directly from the Master. The closest thing we have is words from books, be it The Bible, or biographies and sermons by godly men who themselves were purported to have walked in these sorts of supernatural occurances. One sermon, by Smith Wigglesworth, has always stood out to me. It is about the nature of faith, being tied to purity. Purity. That's a BIG word. That word can encompass a world of things, including, as James says: ' Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world'. The fact that Hobart had a orthopedic shoe, and continued to wear and be fitted for it ( I am reasonably sure that during the space of his ministry, he had to have worn several pairs out ), is of course a question that we could refer to and deduce that he indeed was not following what he preached. I am personally privy to how that was interpreted, due to my own personal experience with a similar situation. It was the leaderships' opinion, that there is a difference between a 'healing' and a 'restorative miracle', where someone needs not just to be healed, but actually needs something that they don't have. A missing tooth would fit into that category, as well. In my mind, however, I don't see Jesus making that distinction. I don't see Him separating supernatural manifestations into different categories. I personally see that as faith-defeating, to think of having a leg grow out, as being more difficult to believe God for, than to believe Him for healing/deliverance from Pneumonia or Cancer. That sort of thinking, to me, infers that it is more difficult to believe for, or that there are levels of faith that one attains unto. I see Peter walking on water on his first attempt, fresh out of the boat, if you will. Faith is about a relationship with God, not about attaining unto some elevated level by ones' own volition, or works. ...and to me...that is/was the failure of FA/HEF and the laity.... an attempt to aquire mountain-moving faith, through faith in themselves, and their ability to interpret scripture correctly....which in itself for many became a dead religious work, instead of a 'live', 'now', 'personal' relationship with The Living God.....which is what I see from Noah to Paul. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 427 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.251.231.80 |
...I don't ever recall making that statement, or even inferring it..perhaps that is only how you see me.  | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Another thought: hombre, Nothing is to my shame and I DO KNOW BETTER. That's why I got the heck away from all yall- both pulpit pressure and peer pressure. They worked hand in hand. Two sides of the same coin. :-) I'm surprised, hombre. I was expecting this reply to that post: I John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. Or being called stupid and a moron again ....LOL. I'll be stupid phoneyom moron as long as you'll be dangler. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
You're so hard on Hombre, as if he caused all this. Do y'all know each other personally? Is Hombre old enough to have participated as an adult in FA's first inception (1970s & 80s)? I just turned 47 and remember the late 70s and early 80s as a time when lifestyle extremes, both in the world (partying, drugs) and religion (Moral Majority, Pentecostal and other groups) were becoming more visible. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Hard on hombre? He's the one going around calling folks stupid morons and other various derogatory names all the time trying to belittle and brow beat. Attacking our characters and persons so I feel justified in what I've said. I make no apologies. I don't hate him but just for the record, I'm gonna bite his behind real good 'cause I ain't no punk....some young naive, impressionable, gullible fool like I was back then, just sittin' there takin' it. Bullies need to be bullied right back. I'm like Granny Klump: Come on, Cletus. You walkin' over, but cha limpin' back. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
Well, Hombre can dish it out...I won't even try to figure out who started this war of words and focus on the topics rather than the personalities. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"...and to me...that is/was the failure of FA/HEF and the laity.... an attempt to aquire mountain-moving faith, through faith in themselves, and their ability to interpret scripture correctly....which in itself for many became a dead religious work, instead of a 'live', 'now', 'personal' relationship with The Living God.....which is what I see from Noah to Paul." That's not what Hobart taught. There's no distinction between clergy(HEF) and laity. I read Charismatic Body Ministry, hombre. Everybody in the church is BOTH clergy and laity. Everybody has a ministry and function; purpose in the Body of Christ. (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 22, 2007) | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
I'll dare to throw a wrench in the proceedings...as a historian currently reading up on the clergy/laity matter, I believe that the non-distinction between clergy & laity is an American (i.e. cultural) rather than a Biblical phenomenon because the N.T. speaks of church leaders--elders, evangelists, and deacons. Need I say more? | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 428 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.251.231.80 |
Hey, thanks for leading the crusade for brothery Christian love, as well as a superb example of the same. Right back atcha, darlin. BTW: I'm 54, and yes, I was a first generation FA'er...and yes I know that HEF taught body ministry...duh...I was making a distinction in order to differentiate between the '5-fold' and the rest of the 'body'...but if you want to split hairs on semantics, go ahead, it won't be the first time you majored on a minor or twisted something to meet your needs. ....oh... Studious, in case you haven't gotten far back enough into the archives, or even care to, the major contenders for stupidity here are, not necessarily in order of magnitude: Odysseus, Healed, Five Fold Prophet, and more recently, Passin Thru, Joniyom and that nazi guy whose name is too long to care about. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
I saw a thread by 5-Fold Prophet listing a whole bunch of links "proving" that medicine has occult origins. I don't think that even HEF would have agreed with 5-Fold's point had he been alive to see it, though he might've been intrigued by his research... | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
The days of the week and months of the year have pagan occult origins too. Better throw out them calendars. Satan might be using them as open doors into your life to oppress you with demonic spirits. LOL | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"...but if you want to split hairs on semantics, go ahead, it won't be the first time you majored on a minor or twisted something to meet your needs." You have the unmitigated gall. FA and Hobart and you are the epitome of splitting hairs, majoring on a minor and twisting to meet their needs. How about songs in minor keys not being of God? Twisted Ps. 82 saying it's teaching about our dominion. Twisted II Tim 3:5 saying denying the power is denying the supernatural when it's talking about godliness. Twisted Heb.11 dying in faith and not receiving the promise(concerning those dying trying to believe for healing) when it's talking about a difference between promises patriarchs did receive by faith in their lifetimes and the promise(s) they saw afar off concerning God's unfolding revelation fulfilled in Jesus Christ(new and better covenant)and a heavenly kingdom. (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 22, 2007) | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Studious, in case you haven't gotten far back enough into the archives, or even care to, the major contender for arrogance and denial of the obvious concerning Hobart's and FA's teachings here is, not necessarily in order of magnitude: hombre, hombre, hombre, and more recently hombre and hombre and that hombre guy whose name is too short to care about. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
From the 2 Simple Questions Thread hombre said: "Self denial would be denying the mortal body something needful for it's survival or sustenance...in the search for the Divine." I replied: Like denying your kids or yourself medical treatment in your search to prove you had faith for divine healing? | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 73 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
"Hey, thanks for leading the crusade for brothery Christian love, as well as a superb example of the same." But we're all stupid and morons and various other adjectives that you spew out on a continual basis...hombre you're nothing but a self-righteous, inflated, windbag, hypocrite. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 74 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
hombre said this: "I can forgive others for anything, as the Lord has done, and does for me, but what I can not tolerate is the twisting of scripture to meet the lifestyle requirements of whoever decides to do whatever they want with it.” Yet he twists and twists and twists and JUSTIFIES and excuses and glosses over and tries to rationalize and come to terms with what was wrong with Hobart, FA and it's teaching. Sometimes he'll admit things but he'll only go so far. Then people like me are accused of being "intellectual" because we go over that line they've drawn in the sand. He's had more relevant commentary from numerous posters on this site to fill a million lifetimes. A mind is a terrible thing...- keep your butt in school, hombre. People like him are like I was at one time: afraid of reality and the truth. That ministry and church produced a spirit of fear. Fear of doctors, fear of objects, fear of satan and demons and fear of being deceived because everybody and everything outside of Hobart and FA was not of God, fear of thinking for themselves, fear of questioning, fear, fear, fear, fear.... Don't trouble the waters, don't come against their precious Hobart, don't question things down to the very core and the nitty gritty, because their whole structure of belief will come crashing down like a house of cards. They've built their whole life and relationship to God on divine healing. They don't understand grace. They can't see any Christianity or discipleship or relationship with Jesus whatsoever outside of faith for divine healing. They worship divine healing and they worship faith in faith. Like the Israelites, making an idol out of a serpent on a pole- a piece of brass. Nehushtan. II Kings 18:4 Hobart is their Moses. Making mysteries out of what is no mystery at all. Robbed of the simplicity of faith in Jesus Christ. (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007) | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 75 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
 Some folks, like hombre, just can't handle the facts. Don't be afraid of a good debate. Don't fear what you perceive to be poison, from hombre or anyone else. If you drink any deadly thing it won't hurt you. Come on guys and gals, get in the ring, and take hombre on. Say what you've got to say. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 76 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Throw the ring away, hombre. Get rid of it. It belongs in Mount Doom. http://www.cesnur.org/tolkien/033.htm | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 77 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
And while I'm on a roll I'll go so far as to say that Hobart and FA had the nerve to teach and preach against Shepherdship, Neo-Discipleship and the bondage and abuse that it caused in people's lives yet HOBART HIMSELF became the same thing over believer's lives, going so far as to stick his nose into the sexual relations of those bound in the covenant of marriage, calling oral sex sodomy. Scripture please! There is none. Marriage is honorable and the BED IS UNDEFILED. What God joins together LET NO MAN, not even Hobart Freeman and his lofty opinions, divide asunder. As I've stated before, the JW's got into this mess and wreaked havoc upon marriages and families. See the book Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz for the background on this episode. There, I've said it. (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007) (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007) | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.181.100.89 |
Hi all. Sorry I'm a little late. F.A.C.T.net inadvertently deleted my account in the updates, so I had to wait for the re-activation. Hombre, I am not a National Socialist. If my user name is too long, don't be shy about shortening it to "soldat." Returning to where I left off, the subject matter from 1Cor. 1-4 is structured around the question of factions forming in the church at Corinth. In ch.3, we may outline all the statements leading up to 'all things are yours' in the following way: + v.1-4, The Corinthians are carnal babes because of their divisions over ministers. + v.5-10, All these ministers were sent to build the same structure. + v.11-15, We are expected to build that structure with quality materials. + v.16-20, We are expected not to defile it with worldly vanities (such as carnal divisions, perhaps?) because it is a holy temple (or literally, 'sanctuary'). 'Therefore' -- for all these reasons -- 'let no man glory in men' -- the ministers who have contributed to the building of this temple -- 'for all things are yours; whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas' -- again, those ministers -- 'or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; and ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's' -- everything, even death, is for your edification. The proof is in the pudding of ch.4:1 -- 'Let a man so account of us...' That is, in like manner, think of us as yours, as being for your service, as well as for God's. This is about ministry, not dominion. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 79 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Amen, and thank you christlicher_soldat. A very thorough post and right on target. We're not all stupid morons, fools, etc. as hombre says. | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.181.100.89 |
Thank you, johiyom. I can't help but wonder if hombre might construe the deletion of my account as judgment from God. However, to put a twist on something once said of the Christian Science religion, there is no divine dignity for a god whose vengeance can be defeated by a simple re-registration. :-D | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
Call it playing devil's advocate--just looking for the core of this discussion. I found, in the other thread, "Swearing Oaths to Medical Deities," this by Hombre: "When a clergyman gets such a hold on peoples lives that they start obeying him rather than Him, that's when things like the Inquisition begin...and I wholeheartedly agree with maintaining ones independent thought and discernment in judging religious matters." He understands as much as anyone else the danger of following a man slavishly. The question is WHOM do you trust? He still trusts HEF, for better or worse; Catholics (supposedly) trust the Pope; churches trust their leaders or they can't function, not that all should function if they're heretical--let God do the sifting. I think that Hombre, at least now, knows better than to go over the edge of the cliff, if you will, with a human leader though I think you're saying he would because many DID go over the cliff and to their deaths because of him, with HEF going over himself. So, Hombre, would you have? Or is this an "if I knew then what I know now" meaningless question? | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 80 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
The story of Job is lesson for the FA mentality: In a nutshell, Job is called righteous and serves God faithfully. He loses just about everything and gets sick(and yes, God allows Satan, the source of sickness and calamity, to afflict him). Here come his friends, just like FA people, who believe that the reason Job is suffering is because he deserves it and did something wrong. God wouldn't do that or should we say allow that if Job had all his spiritual ducks in a row in his relationship with God. God is a God of blessing and he wouldn't let that happen to you if you were pure with him. You're sick because: 1 you have sin in your life 2 you have a demon 3 you are not meeting some condition 4 you really don't have the faith for healing etc. Job maintained his innocence and while he cursed the day he was born he never once curses God. The only thing we could accuse Job of and find fault with him is that the thing which he feared came upon him. But I don't view that verse as some sin or unrighteousness on Job's part because God himself says Job was righteous. God, in the end, rebukes Job but at the same time defends and vindicates him and says that his words were right. His friends, on the other hand, were told that what they said was altogether not right and they needed to go to Job and make amends. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job. Job has a true revelation of God. He sees and knows God in a way he did not before. God heals and restores Job. So my advice is this: every Christian is not sick because of the 4 points mentioned above. That is a Job's friends mentality. That is the kind of mentality the faith message produces. Trite little simplistic faith formula theology answers for the complex difficulties and questions of our human existence. Again the sovereinty of God must be kept in balance with faith in his promises for blessings. The FA mentality is a folly and does not really see and know God like it claims. Healing is in the atonement but still the righteous suffer. | ||
| studious New member Username: studious Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 70.153.89.223 |
Can't argue with that--good analogy (Job's friends). | ||
| hardbones Junior Member Username: hardbones Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.95.26.41 |
As far as your comments on Job are concerned HEF would likely agree with you. I certainly do. I heard him teach on stuff like that many times. There is something greater than our faith and that is God's will or God's sovereignty. As far as oral sex is concerned it really seems to be a bee in your bonnet doesn't it? I think an excellent case could be made against it from Rom.1/26. It could mean oral sex or lesbian sex or both. Personally I agree with HEF it is a homosexual act being used by hetrosexual people and that it is not natural. I think it is entirely in the purview of a xian minister to speak to private family issues. Provided it doesn't go to far and I don't see that he did on that issue. If a further comment is required to any reply it will have to wait as I am short on time. | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
It's not a bee in my bonnet. I just believe that it is not scripturally justified. I believe Romans 1:26 is talking about women with women...lesbian sex, not oral sex between a husband and wife. Homosexuals fondle one another's genitals. Does that mean that if a husband and wife fondle one another's genitals in foreplay they are engaging in an unnatural homosexual act? It is natural and a matter of conscience in the privacy and covenant of marriage if the couple chooses it. But you are entitled to your opinion on the matter. That's all I have to say on that. Ooops, I forgot something I was going to include in this post, so I must edit. I think oral sex is alluded to in several verses of the Song of Solomon between heterosexual couples. (Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007) | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 82 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
I want to ask these questions. Were there any Down's Syndrome people at FA? Any totally blind? Any dwarfs? Any totally deaf? Adults or children? Any with obvious debilitating birth defects? Any ministry to deaf people, for instance? | ||
| christlicher_soldat New member Username: christlicher_soldat Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 164.111.202.141 |
"Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste" (Song 2:3). "Awake, O north wind, and come, wind of the south; make my garden breathe out fragrance. Let its spices be wafted abroad. May my beloved come into his garden and eat its choice fruits!” (Song 4:16) “I said, ‘I will climb the palm tree. I will take hold of its fruit stalks.’ Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine" (Song 7:7). Can there be any doubt about what's being described here? It doesn't take a dirty mind. | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 429 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.44.11 |
...sorry kids, it's the weekend, and for now, your questions and comments will have to wait for my return, during the normal hours of the school week. Try to remember that I hold special hours for my very special ed students. Also, remember to eat a nourishing breakfast, as that will help give you energy for your bodies and your very special minds. All for now, see you kids later. Mr Hombre Director of Special Education | ||
| johiyom Member Username: johiyom Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.185.69.124 |
Not to jump to conclusions or take offence by an assumption but for some odd reason I get the feeling that hombre is now calling us "retarded", but in a nice, coy way.  I used to think John Cougar Melloncamp was a place for retarded kids in the summer. j/k LOL | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 430 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.31.29 |
Hey, you're really good with metaphors aren't you? ...and utilizing your inferred method of interpreting them, could you share the meaning of this one, and how it relates to you personally? '.....And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.....' ~ Matt. 25:6 | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2841 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
Hobart Freeman was a cult leader-his message led many to an early death including himself.... R | ||
| hombre Intermediate Member Username: hombre Post Number: 431 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 76.252.31.29 |
Rachel England is a person that is entitled to her own opinions.....in the United States, and presumably on this board..... for right or wrong.......H | ||
| rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2842 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
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