| Author | Message | ||
     exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
For more on Mike Bickle and IHOP (formerly called the KANSAS CITY PROPHETS/FELLOWSHIP), go to these sites: http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00093_the_kansas_city_prophets_web.htm http://www.tribwatch.com/toronto.htm http://wordpress.com/tag/mike-bickle/feed/ http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b56.html etc. etc. etc. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
I'm here to tell u that MIKE BICKLE is a LIAR and IHOP ACTUALLY IS A CULT. I'd been attending their school, FSM (FORERUNNER SCHOOL OF MINISTRY) for almost two years, taking everything in, journaling everything, and TESTING everything against scripture. There are so many false doctrines taught there, its not even funny. For example: 1. They uphold teachings of Mystics and false prophets. 2. They teach/practice DELIVERANCE for/on CHRISTIANS frequently. 3. I've seen "CHRISTIANS" manifest demons more times than i can count. 4. I've seen/they teach Odd, unbiblical manifestations that they claim are from the "Holy Spirit." 5. They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, "The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!" 6. Generational curses being the cause of habitual sin and sickness in Born-again Christians (they blame demons for literally everything!) 7. Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle has been proven to fabricate numerous "prophesies" and teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy. 8. Etc But this isn't even why I say it is a cult! (YEAH, IT ACTUALLY GETS WORSE!!!) As I previously stated, I was a student at the FSM, until a series of events left me in a small office with 3 people. At this pointm I was aware of false prophesies, doctrines, and teachings. I began to warn people, adamently, to "TEST EVERYTHING! Don't believe anything unless u see it, IN CONTEXT, in the Bible. Just because something is real, doesn't mean its from God..." So, leadership obviously got word that I'd been doing this and I was brought into an office. In this office, they gave me a laundry list of things wrong with me (mostly from my past), and said that I have a problem with authority. Then they began to use smooth words to try and twist the situation and manipulate me by saying, "It's not your fault, you just need help. But we are for you! We love you! And we are going to help you." This is when they proceeded to tell me that I needed healing and deliverance from the authority issues which stem from having a bad relationship with my dad (which isnt even true). So, in order to recieve this "healing and deliverance" they were going to give me a portion of my tuition money back (i had only been to 4 days of school) and SEND ME AWAY to Toronto, where the Toronto blessing was. They smoothly threatened me not to tell my parents (without them being there) and to recieve this news with "a humble heart" so as not to "speak evil of their authority" to anyone. If this isn't CULT action, then I sure as heck dunno what is! Mind you, I had just bought a house that was $1100/mo in rent, so that I could help ihop people in need. I had been mentoring a few of my roomies who were brand new christians and came outta bad living situiations. So THEN, after ALL OF THAT nonsense, they call my roommates into their office, completely slander me, tell them to wait until I am gone, move out of my house, and then send me an email to let me know they've left. They commanded that their meeting be completely confidential from everyone. Luckily for me, one of my roommates is not stupid. So she told me everything. But my other roommates wont even look at me. IHOP completely screwed me over! Sick isn't it?!?!?! WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GO TO IHOP!!! IT IS THE BIGGEST CULT SINCE MORMONISM AND ITS TAKING OVER!!!!!!!!! | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 385 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.193.200.3 |
I am glad you started this. We have been having our own discussion over on this thread. Mike Bickle and Lou Engle are joined at the hip. Engle does the events like the Call and the Cause and Bickle supplies the IHOP kids. At this section start reading about The Call on 7-7-7 and then move on to The Cause. The events revolve around the prophecies of Bob Jones. Thanks for talking about IHOP! and creating this | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Oh, believe me, I know!!!! Lou Engle and his wife just moved to kansas city (IHOP). So Mike and Lou are now literally joined. Its scary! | ||
| matt_hatter Intermediate Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 413 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Thanks exihoper, I have taken an interest in these weirdos over the summer, and it is nice to know that my feelings were right about these guys. I was formerly with Maranatha, a campus ministry back in the 70's and 80's. It seems like Sunday School compared to your experience. One question...the body rocking dude...Engle? Did you see young people take on his mannerisms? I have noticed what I thought was the same body rocking among some of the young males on some of the You Tube vids. Also, what is the demographic of the kids? Most of the Maranatha kids were from stable families, with at least enough money to send them to college. Are the kids like this? Or the other end of the spectrum, runaways? Or something in between? Thanks and welcome to fnet. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 195 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
exihoper: I have some questions, for which I hope you can give some further explanation. #1 You said, "They uphold teachings of mystics and false prophets." Would you please share who you believe to be a false prophet(s), and please explain why you believe such prophet(s) to be false - ??? Same for someone who is a "mystic" - ??? #2 You said, "They teach and practice deliverance for and on Christians frequently." Why is this a sign that IHOP is a cult? Did you know that ALL Christians NEED deliverance??? #3 You said, "I've seen Christians manifest demons." OK, why is this a sign of a cult? Did you know that Christians CAN manifest demons, because while demons CANNOT POSSESS a Christian, demons can certainly OPPRESS a Christian, for which the Christian would need deliverance, right??? #4 You mentioned "unbiblical manifestations" that the leaders claim are from the Holy Spirit. What makes these manifestations unbiblical??? Can you share some examples please??? #5 You said, "They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, 'The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!'" How do they twist Scriptures and take them out of context? What doctrines do they have that are "wacked-out" - ? What kind of excuses do they make specifically? Why is the latter statement that they made about the Holy Spirit such a "dangerous" statement? Why do you disagree with it - ??? #6 Did you know that a generational curse can exist in families and be the cause for sin??? Did you know there is Scripture support for that??? #7 You said, "Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle has been proven to fabricate numerous "prophesies" and teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy." OK, do you have any proof of this stuff - ??? #8 Why do you think your office meeting was "cult action" - ??? Do not cults actually try to keep its "members" rather than sending them away to another city, e.g. Toronto - ??? Anyways, exihop, if you could answer those questions for all of us, and provide further explanation please, then I would greatly appreciate that. Thank you. | ||
| bluewater2 Intermediate Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 496 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
Hey, JBkrems, what is your relationship to this group? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 197 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Bluewater: What do you mean? | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
First to answer the questions of "matt_hatter" Yes, the people at IHOP take on the charactaristics of Engle. When I first started going there I didn't know what was going on. Not everyone does it, but there is a joke going around... something like, "You know you're an IHOPer, if you're rocking back and forth at a resteraunt..." So, the short answer is: absolutely. To answer your second question about the demographic. 80-90% of people here left their family in one way or another to come out here. The story usually goes, "I left my family and am living off support because my parents/church thinks this place is a cult." Then the kids eventualy get their family to come out, and the family moves to KC, or frequents IHOP, and they're one big happy family. Most people I knew were ex-addicts, abused, not very well-off, etc. There were VERY few people that weren't already "down and out" in some way, or just being rebellious. But most of those "normal" people were already part of the charismatic church, so it wasn't a huge difference for them. I hope that answers your question. Thanks for the welcome. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 389 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.73.107 |
JBK came from the general location of IHOP and has a close friend in IHOP and knows another guy by the last name of Nesbit who was deeply involved with the program called River Flush where people linked to Peter Wagner (the head of the New Apostolic Roundtable?) sent out folks to flush out demons from the Mississippi river system and thus break the power of principalities from the second heavens over the rivers which are a power source and communication network for the demonic. Their trying to save America. River Flush was designed to prepare the way for the Lou Engle/Bickle The Call event on 7-7-7 in Nashville fulfilling Bob Jones prophecies, this event is suppose to turn the nation back to Jesus, then after that there was The Cause an event where Engle took IHOP kids on busses called the Red Ryders out of Nashville to SF to an event called Gods Summer of Love on 8-11-07. This whole thing has Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, Cindy Jacobs, Leonard Jones involved with it. Look this will take all day bluewater2 but lets just say about JBK, he knows people. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 390 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.73.107 |
At the summer of love event in SF on 8-11-07, there was a kid standing in the middle of a round paint splattered peace symbol (about 9 feet across) bobbing like Lou Engle. | ||
| jeff_franklin Advanced Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 574 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
How HUGE is this guy Mike Bickle? What does he weigh? How tall is he? Does he take steroids? Is he a roid head? Former pro wrestler or football player? I'll bet he gained his hugeness from continual eating at one of them International House Of Pancakes. That'll do it every time!  | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Now to answer "JBKrems" First, I want to apologize for not initially giving much more detail in my first post. I didn't have too much time, and was only allowed a certain amount of words. That being said, I'm going to have to answer your questions using multiple posts, so please be patient with me. To answer your first question, the part about the mystics: #1 "Would you please share who you believe to be a false prophet(s), and please explain why you believe such prophet(s) to be false - ??? Same for someone who is a "mystic" - ???" Okay, first off, NOT ALL MYSTICS are terrible. I want to make that clear because there are, in fact, many good things to learn from their lifestyles. However, much of what some mystics would practice were not very good. As far as my understanding goes, they upheld all of it, not just the good stuff. ....... | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Now to answer "JBKrems" First, I want to apologize for not initially giving much more detail in my first post. I didn't have too much time, and was only allowed a certain amount of words. That being said, I'm going to have to answer your questions using multiple posts, so please be patient with me. To answer your first question, the part about the mystics: #1 "Would you please share who you believe to be a false prophet(s), and please explain why you believe such prophet(s) to be false - ??? Same for someone who is a "mystic" - ???" Okay, first off, NOT ALL MYSTICS are terrible. I want to make that clear because there are, in fact, many good things to learn from their lifestyles. However, much of what some mystics would practice were not very good. As far as my understanding goes, they upheld all of it, not just the good stuff. we had an entire class devoted to it, called "mystical life of communion" ....... | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: Yes, I'll be patient with you. Could you in a future post define what you mean by "mystic" and what you mean by "false prophet." Examples or illustration would be nice to support your definition, please. Thanks. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#1 False prophets: a) William Branham: on top of false prophet, does NOT believe in the trinity & even says its from satan; Said that HE IS Elijah the prophet; had an "angel" for a guide; said Jesus was a created being who, on the day of pentecost changed Himself from 'son of man' to 'son of God'; does NOT believe in hell; says the Word of God was given in 3 forms: the zodiac, the Egyptian pyramids, & the written scripture; etc. The guy was flat-out demonic. b) Paul Cain: besides false prophet, he followed Branham, even saying hes 'the greatest prophet ever to live'; mediumistic; uses occultic/spiritist signs/practices; upholds/teaches "new breed, new seed", "manifest sons of God", & "Latter rain"; had an "angel" for a guide; disembodied/spiritistic visitations; followed Asceticism; said "Jesus" forbid him to marry/be celebate, also says 'Jesus' laid hands on him, 'perminantly removing all sexual desire' & later became a homosexual and drunkard; a plethora of lies involving signs and wonders; etc c) Bob Jones: besides false prophet & liar; follows/upholds Branham; many spiritist/witchcraft/omens etc; occult dreams/visions; was in a mental institution where he was 'visited by demons' regularly; upheld/taught "manifest sons of God", "Latter Rains", & "new breed, new seed"; claims, while in mental institution, 'Jesus' came & told him to get his mind back he must either kill OR forgive 12 people; Was removed from Vineyard because he told women to undress in his office to stand "naked before the Lord" in order to receive a word; etc d) Rick Joyner: false prophet; teaches MSG & LT; works with Jones; books full of false doctrine; etc the list goes on. Bickle believes Branham and Cain were the greatest prophets ever. Mike still teaches that theyre 99% acurate and essential to the existance of Ihop. In fact, every student is required to listen to the "prophetic history" tapes, proving his support for it. click on the urls in my 1st post, youll find a plethora of false prophecy, false fulfillments, & flat-out lies going on between Mike & the others. For example, Mike STILL teaches (even last week) this: In 1983 Bob Jones 'prophesied' that there'd be 3 months of drought. Mike Bickle said: "Kansas City was known as the bread-basket of the world; it was the centre of grain farming, fanning out to a radius of five hundred miles. For the whole of June there was no rain! IT was terrible! For the whole of July there was no rain! It was terrible! No rain during the first week of August or the second or the third. It was terrible! Bob Jones said that the Lord had told him it would come on 23rd August. We had all been poised since early dawn that day, but by 1pm there was still no rain. By 6 o'clock we were just resigned to wait another day when suddenly it began. And did it rain? It poured! No man could have manipulated that. It just had to be God!" However, Pastor Ernest Gruen said there was no drought! Even more importantly, The U.S. National Weather Bureau confirms that 7 inches of rain fell on Kansas City in June 1983. It rained on 12 out of thirty days - almost 1/2 the month! On just one of those days, the rainfall was 7x the rainfall on 23rd August! So, the prophecy was a lie and a fake. What is far worse, is that Bickle afterward (that is, after knowing what really happened, & after knowing the prophecy to be false) claimed it to be true I hope my answer was thorough enuf 4u! I can go on and on.... | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
JBK: on to Q #2#2 You said, "They teach and practice deliverance for and on Christians frequently." Why is this a sign that IHOP is a cult? Did you know that ALL Christians NEED deliverance??? A: When I say “Deliverance” I mean the casting out of demons. This is a completely unbiblical practice and unnecessary. For further, clear explanation strait out of the Word, PLEASE read here: http://www.naminggrace.org/id62.htm | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#3 #3 You said, "I've seen Christians manifest demons." OK, why is this a sign of a cult? Did you know that Christians CAN manifest demons, because while demons CANNOT POSSESS a Christian, demons can certainly OPPRESS a Christian, for which the Christian would need deliverance, right??? A: Wrong, actually. By the charasmatic (and unbiblical, mind you) veiw of "oppression" this means that demonic can NOT possess a christian's spirit. Some say, they CAN possess your soul/body, others say they just influence and afflict you. The former is rediculous. Its like saying that Satan can posses Jesus and Holy Spirit, but not the Father. God is one. Our body, soul, spirit is US, which is God's if you are a real christian. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" right?! Otherwise, what the heck did Jesus even die for? Furthermore, Christians should be able to have full control of their body and functions. If they are manifesting demons, then they are possessed. There is NO other way to look at it. In fact, lets play dictionary: Oppression: the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc. Possession: To gain or exert influence or control over; dominate; To control or maintain (one's nature) in a particular condition; the act of having and controlling property; the trait of resolutely controlling your own behavior; control over oneself, one's mind, etc I think that in itself is very clear. Futhermore, there are ZERO biblical teachings and/or accounts of Born-again Christians being possessed. And "Oppression" is neither a word in scripture or an idea taught. EVER. Even if deliverance was real, I would argue that either they aren't really a christian, or they are involved in witchcraft, because it simply isnt biblical. Just because something is real, doesnt mean its from God. we must test ALL things by the WORD OF GOD. this test fails miserably | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Q #4 You mentioned "unbiblical manifestations" that the leaders claim are from the Holy Spirit. What makes these manifestations unbiblical??? Can you share some examples please??? A: If you are going to argue that these manifestations are from Holy Spirit, I REQUIRE you give me scripture references for EACH one. The manifestations are as follows: 1) "holy laughter" (began in toronto in 1970's) 2) "Slain in the spirit" (widely twisted and taken out of context from scipture) 3) Animal sounds. (this is just rediculous) 4) Burning sensation (again not in bible) 5) Compulsory movements 6) Seizuring on floor (demonic) 7) Trembling and shaking 8) Extra-biblical revelation 9) People acting like giving birth 10) Loud Moaning/screaming (sounds painful) 11) Orgasms (Not frequent, but has been reported) 12) etc etc etc First of all, if its from God it would be in the Bible and it would bring you closer to Jesus in love for God and your neighbor. These freaked me out and made me feel "less than" or like God didn't love me as much. But its not from God because its neither Biblical, nor does God operate like this. JESUS was more filled with the Spirit than any human being ever has been or will be. He never did any of these things. Not even close. Same with the Apostles of that day. Not even on the day of Pentecost (where Holy Spirit was poured out completely) did any of these happen. ONLY the gift of tongues manifested. No rolling around, no extra-biblical visions, no barking, no seizures, nothing. Also, there have been many people in both the OT and NT who have encountered God. NONE of them experienced any of these crazy wacked-out things. Even ISAIAH who experienced the RAW PRESANCE of GOD, did nothing but get on His face and declare his impurity. He was anything but prideful in the presance of God. Isaiah and every other Biblical character must not of had a great enough "annointing" eh? Whatever.... once again, please read HERE: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/kundalini.html oh PS. none of these "manifestations" even began until the 1970's. I think that says something about them... PLEASE read this: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/kundalini.html | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
PPS: SCRIPTURE MUST INTERPRET EXPERIENCE; EXPERIENCE CANNOT INTERPRET SCRIPTURE. Q #5 You said, "They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, 'The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!'" How do they twist Scriptures and take them out of context? What doctrines do they have that are "wacked-out" - ? What kind of excuses do they make specifically? Why is the latter statement that they made about the Holy Spirit such a "dangerous" statement? Why do you disagree with it - ??? A. This will literally take me all day long. Let me see if I can find just one example to prove the hundreds more.... Ok, This example is far less severe than others I've seen, but for sake of time I'm taking this example off of one of his recent sermons (picked at random). Example: Positive Trends, People and Events in the End Times - Bickle’s teaching notes from February 17, 2007. I will only address (I.) of Bickle’s outline. He quotes Joel 2:11 and Malachi 4:5, both of which refer to the “great” and “terrible” (or “dreadful”, or “awesome” - depending on the translation) Day of the Lord. The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it? Joel 2:11 (NIV) See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse. Malachi 4:5-6 (NIV) Now, it seems to me that your average fifth-grader would be able to deduce from these kinds of passages that the words “great” and “dreadful” are used in conjunction to emphasize the terrible gravity of the Day of the Lord. That they are expressing the same thing (even check out the Hebrew on this one if you like); namely, that the Day of the Lord will be an awesome (not synonymous with “cool”, but that which inspires admiration and wonder and fear) and dreadful display of God’s power and wrath against His enemies. But, no. Bickle teaches that these two words signify a dichotomous blessing/curse for those living at the end of this age - believers will be blessed, while sinners will be cursed. <!--[if>The 2-fold nature of the day of the Lord is seen in the great blessing it releases for those who call on Jesus and it is terrible in judgment for those who refuse Him. Mike Bickle (I., C.) As for why "Holy spirit loves to offend the mind, this is how you know it's God" is dangerous... ever hear of "passive mind"?? They are saying this because (EXCUSE) they cant support their manifestations (etc) with scripture, so they tell you to check your mind out at the door and use your heart (ie: emotions, feelings, etc). This is VERY DANGEROUS because its not only unbiblical, but it creates "passive mind." which completely explains their demonic manifestations and need for deliverance (because passive mind is grounds for possession. Read about it), which is a whole other issue in it of itself. Its very scary even. On top of that, this means you can no longer test scripture, but have to go off of emotion, feeling, and experience. This is actually WARNED about in the Bible. In other words, the bible teaches against it, not for it. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
on to Q #6 Did you know that a generational curse can exist in families and be the cause for sin??? Did you know there is Scripture support for that??? A: Okay, I'm not stupid. I was an avid IHOPer for years. I know all the doctrines, practices, and teachings well. First, generational curses ARE biblical. HOWEVER, they are NOT biblical for Christians. This is another example of twisting scipture/taking it out of context. In fact, I have the manual written by Graeme Walsh (the teacher on this issue at IHOP) on Generational Curses and Generational sin right in front of me. Allow me to type his scripture references: Exodus 20:4-5, Ex 34:6-7, Numbers 14:18, Duet 5:9, Duet 23:2, Duet 30:19, Jer 2:9. First, please notice these are all Old Testemant references. They all say about the same thing. Let me write one or two out for you so you don't have to look them all up. Notice for the first one, he only references Exodus 20 VERSE 4-5, which say, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me." Okay, first, what do the last 5 words say? "FOR THOSE WHO HATE ME." But, to prove its out of context because of the previous question... what does the very next verse say? "for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." All the other verses listed are the same. Soooo, their doctrine is WAY off. Christians are not affected by generational curses. It wasn't even that way in the OT. In fact, JESUS came out of the bloodline of DAVID, who was an adulterous murderer. He obviously didn't need to take ownership, repent, renounce. That stuff is total crap and extra-biblical. I am another example of someone without a generational curse. My mom's grandpa (dad's side) sold his soul to the devil, my mom's grandpa (mom's side) was a 32 degree MASON, my dad's dad was involved in witchcraft and (cant spell it) WEEGIE boards, his mom and entire family were Jahovah's Witnesses, my dad and his whole fam were drug addicts and alcoholics, and sex addicts, etc. I was the first in my family to know the Lord. I never had any physical ailments (havent even had a cold or flu since i was 10), never had any form of addiction, never struggled with sexual sin, never even touched alcohol (im 24)and never desired it or stuggled, never involved or interested in witchcraft, etc. And I never once renounced anything ever. Because HIS BLOOD IS ENOUGH!!!! | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Q #7 You said, "Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle has been proven to fabricate numerous "prophesies" and teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy." OK, do you have any proof of this stuff - ??? A: ABSOLUTELY. First, All of Mike's teachings are on tape. Also, his book "Growing in the prophetic" tells everything, including Mike teaching its absolutely OKAY to falsly prophesy. Second, the Mp3 set called "Encountering Jesus" is the supposed "prophetic history." These are all the prophesies of Paul Cain, Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle leading up to IHOP. He avidly believes and teaches them still. In fact, students/staff is required to listen to it. Here's a provable example that you can look up for yourself, and can't say I'm lying: In 1983 Bob Jones made a 'prophecy' that there would be three months of drought. Mike Bickle said at the time "Kansas City was known as the bread-basket of the world; it was the centre of grain farming, fanning out to a radius of five hundred miles. For the whole of June there was no rain! IT was terrible! For the whole of July there was no rain! It was terrible! No rain during the first week of August or the second or the third. It was terrible! Bob Jones said that the Lord had told him it would come on 23rd August. We had all been poised since early dawn that day, but by 1 pm there was still no rain. By six o'clock we were just resigned to wait another day when suddenly it began. And did it rain? It poured! No man could have manipulated that. It just had to be God!" Hill discovered, from the pastor of a charismatic church in Kansas City, that the whole prophecy is a lie! The pastor, Ernest Gruen, said there was no drought! The U.S. National Weather Bureau confirms that seven inches of rain fell on Kansas City in June 1983. It rained on 12 out of thirty days - almost half the month! On just one of those days, the rainfall was seven times the rainfall on 23rd August! So, the prophecy was a lie and a fake. What is far worse, is that Bickle afterward (that is, after knowing what really happened, and after knowing the prophecy to be false) claimed it to be true! Like I said in an earlier post, I know for sure he still stand by this even TODAY. He was just preaching on it last week. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
As for an unbiblical veiw of prophesy: First, Mike teaches that EVERYONE can and should prophesy. This is not Biblical according to 1 corinthians 12. Prophecy for Pastor Bickle is the speaking out of inner knowledge that is alleged to owe its origin to the Holy Spirit. The form, content and accuracy of the prophecy may vary from person to person depending on the "level" of their prophetic ministry. Biblical? I think not. Prophecy is not a public or private announcement of the impressions a person receives in his/her mind. Prophecy is from God, a proclamation of the Word of God; it is not a declaring of the mind of a person however spiritual and biblically literate he/she might be. Through a Christian's Bible reading, theological studies, exposure to teaching and preaching and other sources, concepts and images are formed and reflected upon. A reservoir of spiritual and biblical data is accumulated. From this storehouse impressions come to us. Expressing these impressions is normative and acceptable, but to call them prophecy is wrong and dangerous. Psychics (clairvoyants, astrologers, palm readers and a whole host of others), through their spirit guides or other spiritistic mechanisms, reveal details of a person's life and will predict events to come in the person's life. This is the common fair. This is not Holy Spirit prophecy. The psychic information may be completely correct and the predicted events may indeed come to pass. Still it is not prophecy from the Holy Spirit, but it is powerfully seductive to both the psychic and his/her subject. Accuracy of a prophecy is not a guarantee that the "prophet" heard from God. The sole criteria for judging prophecy must be whether it agrees with both the letter and "spirit" of the Bible. God may indeed do new things, but we believe never as to set aside the revealed written word. God has given us a means whereby we may ascertain truth and that is through the living Word, Jesus, and the written word, the Scripture. what is called prophecy in "Growing in the Prophetic" is a speaking out of a person's impressions and not more than that. If this is so, the error will have tragic consequences and may yet take on a demonic quality. "Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." - rev 19:10 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet. 2:1) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 4) | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#8 Why do you think your office meeting was "cult action" - ??? Do not cults actually try to keep its "members" rather than sending them away to another city, e.g. Toronto - ??? A: Actually, some cults do send people away to certain locations to isolate them, in order to brainwash them. As far as my meeting goes, I was lied to on every end. They brought me in there because I was testing scripture, wouldn't buy into their doctrines and spiritistic ways, and was asking to many questions/spreading truth of scripture. Their solution for this was to SEND ME AWAY. Furthermore, they told me NOT to tell my parents and NOT to tell anyone else. They also told me I will not be allowed anywhere near the premises UNLESS I WILLINGLY GO. They wouldn't even tell me what it was. Come on. Lets use our brains and discernment here. I think I have given you MORE than enough proof. I've become aware that you have certain ties to IHOP. That's okay. Like I said, I was an avid believer and promoter of IHOP for many years. Until I started reading my Bible, that is. But the truth be told, there is way too many false doctrines, teachers, etc. I LOVE the gifts of the Spirit, when they are practiced BIBLICALLY. Which is not the case for 90% of IHOP. There is SOOOO much more that I have both seen and experienced there that I haven't even come near touching on. There is just too much to write, for real. I so love the Lord and so love the Word of God. More than I love the "feeling" of whatever goes on there. Its sick. It really is. Test it for yourself using in-context scripture. I GUARENTEE, they will fail the test big time! In fact, you can ask my friends and family who know me best. My first year at IHOP, I bought into ALL their teaching and doctrine and became another person. But in a very bad way. I was so consumed with the manifestations and with deliverance. i even told my best friend she wasn't saved because she's never seen a healing! That's freaking sick! After being slapped across the face by close friends and solid scripture, I realized what was happening to me and hated it. I was always so depressed and felt I needed deliverance often. I was never like that before or since. This place is just not good. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 393 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.9.233 |
man, that was a lot of work, take a breather IHOP buster. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Hey, JBK asked! I don't want anyone to think I'm just making stuff up out of thin air here. Or that I don't have good reason to say what I've said. This is for real. I've for real heard and seen what i'm talking about. And it is for real, unbiblical. Thanks 40days!  | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
exihoper: Good morning, and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I'd like to make some responses to your answers, and maybe ask you some follow-up questions as well. Answer #1: Would you please give me a general definition of "false prophet" - ? That way I can understand why you believe the names you mention are "false prophets." The reason why I ask is because I am concerned you are entering into a logical fallacy called "ad hominem," where you label someone something to characterize them negatively, without logical cause. It sounds to me like you could be making an "ad hominem" type accusation here, and I would like you to clarify that please, before I discuss the names you mentioned further. Answer #2: I agree that deliverance is casting out demons. But that is a very biblical practice. I am not going to analyze the link you provided me, which I believe to be a biased article, but I am going to give you some Scriptures that show deliverance is necessary, sometimes even for born again Christians. However, before I share with you my thoughts in that area, I will critique Wetmore's Point 3 from the article, "Arguing that Christians can be oppressed by demons seriously misunderstands the nature of becoming a child of God." In his short paragraph or two that addresses this "major" point, Wetmore does not define the term "oppression." This is seriously bad exegesis on his part. In fact, nowhere in the entire article does he define the term at all. He does explain in Point 3 what it does mean to be a child of God, but he fails to connect it to the concept of "demonic oppression," which he says is not found in the Scriptures. However, it is clear, exihoper, that the concept of demonic oppression IS found in the Scriptures. The Apostle Peter said in Acts 10:38, "You know of Jesus the Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were OPPRESSED by the devil, for God was with Him." Jesus Himself said in fulfillment of biblical prophecy in Luke 4:18, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are OPPRESSED." This is fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1. Lastly, I think a good example of demonic oppression in the life of a born-again Christian was the "thorn in the flesh" that tormented the Apostle Paul. Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 12:7, "Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a MESSENGER FROM SATAN to TORMENT me, to keep me from exalting myself." Simply put, demonic oppression in the life of anyone can be defined as torment. It is very clear that Jesus came to deliver us from that, given the passages in Luke 4:18 and Acts 10:38. To say that the Bible does not teach "demonic oppression" then is an ignorant statement. So, exihoper, you must see that this is biblical. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 205 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
exihoper: Continued from previous post... Answer #3: Let me explain what I believe demonic oppression to me. It is NOT the same as possession. To me, demonic oppresion is basically torment. We know that Christians CAN be tormented because of the "thorn of the flesh," which God allowed Paul to experience in 2 Cor. 12:7. This was clearly a demon from Satan (that is how the Bible defines the thorn), and Paul says he experienced torment from this demon. Further, Jesus said He came to deliver from oppression, and Peter re-affirms that in Acts 10:38. I cover all of this in my response to Answer #2. I believe that basically oppression is demonic affliction. Can it be influence? Absolutely. I believe modern-day examples of demonic influence in the life of a believer is when a born-again Christin, for instance, starts to rely on drugs or alcohol, instead of God to "fix" their problems. You defined "oppression" correctly from the dictionary, and the Bible does teach that concept in Acts 10:38 and Luke 4:18 --- and you are totally INCORRECT when you said otherwise. Now, I have a lot more to say, so I'll come back later this evening and finish my preliminary responses. I am looking forward to a quality discussion based on what the Bible says concerning these issues. You may be surprised I even agree with you here or there.  But for now, I need to go. | ||
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