| Author | Message | ||
     exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
For more on Mike Bickle and IHOP (formerly called the KANSAS CITY PROPHETS/FELLOWSHIP), go to these sites: http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00093_the_kansas_city_prophets_web.htm http://www.tribwatch.com/toronto.htm http://wordpress.com/tag/mike-bickle/feed/ http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b56.html etc. etc. etc. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
I'm here to tell u that MIKE BICKLE is a LIAR and IHOP ACTUALLY IS A CULT. I'd been attending their school, FSM (FORERUNNER SCHOOL OF MINISTRY) for almost two years, taking everything in, journaling everything, and TESTING everything against scripture. There are so many false doctrines taught there, its not even funny. For example: 1. They uphold teachings of Mystics and false prophets. 2. They teach/practice DELIVERANCE for/on CHRISTIANS frequently. 3. I've seen "CHRISTIANS" manifest demons more times than i can count. 4. I've seen/they teach Odd, unbiblical manifestations that they claim are from the "Holy Spirit." 5. They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, "The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!" 6. Generational curses being the cause of habitual sin and sickness in Born-again Christians (they blame demons for literally everything!) 7. Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle has been proven to fabricate numerous "prophesies" and teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy. 8. Etc But this isn't even why I say it is a cult! (YEAH, IT ACTUALLY GETS WORSE!!!) As I previously stated, I was a student at the FSM, until a series of events left me in a small office with 3 people. At this pointm I was aware of false prophesies, doctrines, and teachings. I began to warn people, adamently, to "TEST EVERYTHING! Don't believe anything unless u see it, IN CONTEXT, in the Bible. Just because something is real, doesn't mean its from God..." So, leadership obviously got word that I'd been doing this and I was brought into an office. In this office, they gave me a laundry list of things wrong with me (mostly from my past), and said that I have a problem with authority. Then they began to use smooth words to try and twist the situation and manipulate me by saying, "It's not your fault, you just need help. But we are for you! We love you! And we are going to help you." This is when they proceeded to tell me that I needed healing and deliverance from the authority issues which stem from having a bad relationship with my dad (which isnt even true). So, in order to recieve this "healing and deliverance" they were going to give me a portion of my tuition money back (i had only been to 4 days of school) and SEND ME AWAY to Toronto, where the Toronto blessing was. They smoothly threatened me not to tell my parents (without them being there) and to recieve this news with "a humble heart" so as not to "speak evil of their authority" to anyone. If this isn't CULT action, then I sure as heck dunno what is! Mind you, I had just bought a house that was $1100/mo in rent, so that I could help ihop people in need. I had been mentoring a few of my roomies who were brand new christians and came outta bad living situiations. So THEN, after ALL OF THAT nonsense, they call my roommates into their office, completely slander me, tell them to wait until I am gone, move out of my house, and then send me an email to let me know they've left. They commanded that their meeting be completely confidential from everyone. Luckily for me, one of my roommates is not stupid. So she told me everything. But my other roommates wont even look at me. IHOP completely screwed me over! Sick isn't it?!?!?! WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GO TO IHOP!!! IT IS THE BIGGEST CULT SINCE MORMONISM AND ITS TAKING OVER!!!!!!!!! | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 385 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.193.200.3 |
I am glad you started this. We have been having our own discussion over on this thread. Mike Bickle and Lou Engle are joined at the hip. Engle does the events like the Call and the Cause and Bickle supplies the IHOP kids. At this section start reading about The Call on 7-7-7 and then move on to The Cause. The events revolve around the prophecies of Bob Jones. Thanks for talking about IHOP! and creating this | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Oh, believe me, I know!!!! Lou Engle and his wife just moved to kansas city (IHOP). So Mike and Lou are now literally joined. Its scary! | ||
| matt_hatter Intermediate Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 413 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Thanks exihoper, I have taken an interest in these weirdos over the summer, and it is nice to know that my feelings were right about these guys. I was formerly with Maranatha, a campus ministry back in the 70's and 80's. It seems like Sunday School compared to your experience. One question...the body rocking dude...Engle? Did you see young people take on his mannerisms? I have noticed what I thought was the same body rocking among some of the young males on some of the You Tube vids. Also, what is the demographic of the kids? Most of the Maranatha kids were from stable families, with at least enough money to send them to college. Are the kids like this? Or the other end of the spectrum, runaways? Or something in between? Thanks and welcome to fnet. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 195 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
exihoper: I have some questions, for which I hope you can give some further explanation. #1 You said, "They uphold teachings of mystics and false prophets." Would you please share who you believe to be a false prophet(s), and please explain why you believe such prophet(s) to be false - ??? Same for someone who is a "mystic" - ??? #2 You said, "They teach and practice deliverance for and on Christians frequently." Why is this a sign that IHOP is a cult? Did you know that ALL Christians NEED deliverance??? #3 You said, "I've seen Christians manifest demons." OK, why is this a sign of a cult? Did you know that Christians CAN manifest demons, because while demons CANNOT POSSESS a Christian, demons can certainly OPPRESS a Christian, for which the Christian would need deliverance, right??? #4 You mentioned "unbiblical manifestations" that the leaders claim are from the Holy Spirit. What makes these manifestations unbiblical??? Can you share some examples please??? #5 You said, "They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, 'The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!'" How do they twist Scriptures and take them out of context? What doctrines do they have that are "wacked-out" - ? What kind of excuses do they make specifically? Why is the latter statement that they made about the Holy Spirit such a "dangerous" statement? Why do you disagree with it - ??? #6 Did you know that a generational curse can exist in families and be the cause for sin??? Did you know there is Scripture support for that??? #7 You said, "Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle has been proven to fabricate numerous "prophesies" and teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy." OK, do you have any proof of this stuff - ??? #8 Why do you think your office meeting was "cult action" - ??? Do not cults actually try to keep its "members" rather than sending them away to another city, e.g. Toronto - ??? Anyways, exihop, if you could answer those questions for all of us, and provide further explanation please, then I would greatly appreciate that. Thank you. | ||
| bluewater2 Intermediate Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 496 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
Hey, JBkrems, what is your relationship to this group? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 197 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Bluewater: What do you mean? | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
First to answer the questions of "matt_hatter" Yes, the people at IHOP take on the charactaristics of Engle. When I first started going there I didn't know what was going on. Not everyone does it, but there is a joke going around... something like, "You know you're an IHOPer, if you're rocking back and forth at a resteraunt..." So, the short answer is: absolutely. To answer your second question about the demographic. 80-90% of people here left their family in one way or another to come out here. The story usually goes, "I left my family and am living off support because my parents/church thinks this place is a cult." Then the kids eventualy get their family to come out, and the family moves to KC, or frequents IHOP, and they're one big happy family. Most people I knew were ex-addicts, abused, not very well-off, etc. There were VERY few people that weren't already "down and out" in some way, or just being rebellious. But most of those "normal" people were already part of the charismatic church, so it wasn't a huge difference for them. I hope that answers your question. Thanks for the welcome. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 389 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.73.107 |
JBK came from the general location of IHOP and has a close friend in IHOP and knows another guy by the last name of Nesbit who was deeply involved with the program called River Flush where people linked to Peter Wagner (the head of the New Apostolic Roundtable?) sent out folks to flush out demons from the Mississippi river system and thus break the power of principalities from the second heavens over the rivers which are a power source and communication network for the demonic. Their trying to save America. River Flush was designed to prepare the way for the Lou Engle/Bickle The Call event on 7-7-7 in Nashville fulfilling Bob Jones prophecies, this event is suppose to turn the nation back to Jesus, then after that there was The Cause an event where Engle took IHOP kids on busses called the Red Ryders out of Nashville to SF to an event called Gods Summer of Love on 8-11-07. This whole thing has Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, Cindy Jacobs, Leonard Jones involved with it. Look this will take all day bluewater2 but lets just say about JBK, he knows people. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 390 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.73.107 |
At the summer of love event in SF on 8-11-07, there was a kid standing in the middle of a round paint splattered peace symbol (about 9 feet across) bobbing like Lou Engle. | ||
| jeff_franklin Advanced Member Username: jeff_franklin Post Number: 574 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 67.9.9.73 |
How HUGE is this guy Mike Bickle? What does he weigh? How tall is he? Does he take steroids? Is he a roid head? Former pro wrestler or football player? I'll bet he gained his hugeness from continual eating at one of them International House Of Pancakes. That'll do it every time!  | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Now to answer "JBKrems" First, I want to apologize for not initially giving much more detail in my first post. I didn't have too much time, and was only allowed a certain amount of words. That being said, I'm going to have to answer your questions using multiple posts, so please be patient with me. To answer your first question, the part about the mystics: #1 "Would you please share who you believe to be a false prophet(s), and please explain why you believe such prophet(s) to be false - ??? Same for someone who is a "mystic" - ???" Okay, first off, NOT ALL MYSTICS are terrible. I want to make that clear because there are, in fact, many good things to learn from their lifestyles. However, much of what some mystics would practice were not very good. As far as my understanding goes, they upheld all of it, not just the good stuff. ....... | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Now to answer "JBKrems" First, I want to apologize for not initially giving much more detail in my first post. I didn't have too much time, and was only allowed a certain amount of words. That being said, I'm going to have to answer your questions using multiple posts, so please be patient with me. To answer your first question, the part about the mystics: #1 "Would you please share who you believe to be a false prophet(s), and please explain why you believe such prophet(s) to be false - ??? Same for someone who is a "mystic" - ???" Okay, first off, NOT ALL MYSTICS are terrible. I want to make that clear because there are, in fact, many good things to learn from their lifestyles. However, much of what some mystics would practice were not very good. As far as my understanding goes, they upheld all of it, not just the good stuff. we had an entire class devoted to it, called "mystical life of communion" ....... | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: Yes, I'll be patient with you. Could you in a future post define what you mean by "mystic" and what you mean by "false prophet." Examples or illustration would be nice to support your definition, please. Thanks. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#1 False prophets: a) William Branham: on top of false prophet, does NOT believe in the trinity & even says its from satan; Said that HE IS Elijah the prophet; had an "angel" for a guide; said Jesus was a created being who, on the day of pentecost changed Himself from 'son of man' to 'son of God'; does NOT believe in hell; says the Word of God was given in 3 forms: the zodiac, the Egyptian pyramids, & the written scripture; etc. The guy was flat-out demonic. b) Paul Cain: besides false prophet, he followed Branham, even saying hes 'the greatest prophet ever to live'; mediumistic; uses occultic/spiritist signs/practices; upholds/teaches "new breed, new seed", "manifest sons of God", & "Latter rain"; had an "angel" for a guide; disembodied/spiritistic visitations; followed Asceticism; said "Jesus" forbid him to marry/be celebate, also says 'Jesus' laid hands on him, 'perminantly removing all sexual desire' & later became a homosexual and drunkard; a plethora of lies involving signs and wonders; etc c) Bob Jones: besides false prophet & liar; follows/upholds Branham; many spiritist/witchcraft/omens etc; occult dreams/visions; was in a mental institution where he was 'visited by demons' regularly; upheld/taught "manifest sons of God", "Latter Rains", & "new breed, new seed"; claims, while in mental institution, 'Jesus' came & told him to get his mind back he must either kill OR forgive 12 people; Was removed from Vineyard because he told women to undress in his office to stand "naked before the Lord" in order to receive a word; etc d) Rick Joyner: false prophet; teaches MSG & LT; works with Jones; books full of false doctrine; etc the list goes on. Bickle believes Branham and Cain were the greatest prophets ever. Mike still teaches that theyre 99% acurate and essential to the existance of Ihop. In fact, every student is required to listen to the "prophetic history" tapes, proving his support for it. click on the urls in my 1st post, youll find a plethora of false prophecy, false fulfillments, & flat-out lies going on between Mike & the others. For example, Mike STILL teaches (even last week) this: In 1983 Bob Jones 'prophesied' that there'd be 3 months of drought. Mike Bickle said: "Kansas City was known as the bread-basket of the world; it was the centre of grain farming, fanning out to a radius of five hundred miles. For the whole of June there was no rain! IT was terrible! For the whole of July there was no rain! It was terrible! No rain during the first week of August or the second or the third. It was terrible! Bob Jones said that the Lord had told him it would come on 23rd August. We had all been poised since early dawn that day, but by 1pm there was still no rain. By 6 o'clock we were just resigned to wait another day when suddenly it began. And did it rain? It poured! No man could have manipulated that. It just had to be God!" However, Pastor Ernest Gruen said there was no drought! Even more importantly, The U.S. National Weather Bureau confirms that 7 inches of rain fell on Kansas City in June 1983. It rained on 12 out of thirty days - almost 1/2 the month! On just one of those days, the rainfall was 7x the rainfall on 23rd August! So, the prophecy was a lie and a fake. What is far worse, is that Bickle afterward (that is, after knowing what really happened, & after knowing the prophecy to be false) claimed it to be true I hope my answer was thorough enuf 4u! I can go on and on.... | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
JBK: on to Q #2#2 You said, "They teach and practice deliverance for and on Christians frequently." Why is this a sign that IHOP is a cult? Did you know that ALL Christians NEED deliverance??? A: When I say “Deliverance” I mean the casting out of demons. This is a completely unbiblical practice and unnecessary. For further, clear explanation strait out of the Word, PLEASE read here: http://www.naminggrace.org/id62.htm | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#3 #3 You said, "I've seen Christians manifest demons." OK, why is this a sign of a cult? Did you know that Christians CAN manifest demons, because while demons CANNOT POSSESS a Christian, demons can certainly OPPRESS a Christian, for which the Christian would need deliverance, right??? A: Wrong, actually. By the charasmatic (and unbiblical, mind you) veiw of "oppression" this means that demonic can NOT possess a christian's spirit. Some say, they CAN possess your soul/body, others say they just influence and afflict you. The former is rediculous. Its like saying that Satan can posses Jesus and Holy Spirit, but not the Father. God is one. Our body, soul, spirit is US, which is God's if you are a real christian. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" right?! Otherwise, what the heck did Jesus even die for? Furthermore, Christians should be able to have full control of their body and functions. If they are manifesting demons, then they are possessed. There is NO other way to look at it. In fact, lets play dictionary: Oppression: the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc. Possession: To gain or exert influence or control over; dominate; To control or maintain (one's nature) in a particular condition; the act of having and controlling property; the trait of resolutely controlling your own behavior; control over oneself, one's mind, etc I think that in itself is very clear. Futhermore, there are ZERO biblical teachings and/or accounts of Born-again Christians being possessed. And "Oppression" is neither a word in scripture or an idea taught. EVER. Even if deliverance was real, I would argue that either they aren't really a christian, or they are involved in witchcraft, because it simply isnt biblical. Just because something is real, doesnt mean its from God. we must test ALL things by the WORD OF GOD. this test fails miserably | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Q #4 You mentioned "unbiblical manifestations" that the leaders claim are from the Holy Spirit. What makes these manifestations unbiblical??? Can you share some examples please??? A: If you are going to argue that these manifestations are from Holy Spirit, I REQUIRE you give me scripture references for EACH one. The manifestations are as follows: 1) "holy laughter" (began in toronto in 1970's) 2) "Slain in the spirit" (widely twisted and taken out of context from scipture) 3) Animal sounds. (this is just rediculous) 4) Burning sensation (again not in bible) 5) Compulsory movements 6) Seizuring on floor (demonic) 7) Trembling and shaking 8) Extra-biblical revelation 9) People acting like giving birth 10) Loud Moaning/screaming (sounds painful) 11) Orgasms (Not frequent, but has been reported) 12) etc etc etc First of all, if its from God it would be in the Bible and it would bring you closer to Jesus in love for God and your neighbor. These freaked me out and made me feel "less than" or like God didn't love me as much. But its not from God because its neither Biblical, nor does God operate like this. JESUS was more filled with the Spirit than any human being ever has been or will be. He never did any of these things. Not even close. Same with the Apostles of that day. Not even on the day of Pentecost (where Holy Spirit was poured out completely) did any of these happen. ONLY the gift of tongues manifested. No rolling around, no extra-biblical visions, no barking, no seizures, nothing. Also, there have been many people in both the OT and NT who have encountered God. NONE of them experienced any of these crazy wacked-out things. Even ISAIAH who experienced the RAW PRESANCE of GOD, did nothing but get on His face and declare his impurity. He was anything but prideful in the presance of God. Isaiah and every other Biblical character must not of had a great enough "annointing" eh? Whatever.... once again, please read HERE: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/kundalini.html oh PS. none of these "manifestations" even began until the 1970's. I think that says something about them... PLEASE read this: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/kundalini.html | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
PPS: SCRIPTURE MUST INTERPRET EXPERIENCE; EXPERIENCE CANNOT INTERPRET SCRIPTURE. Q #5 You said, "They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, 'The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!'" How do they twist Scriptures and take them out of context? What doctrines do they have that are "wacked-out" - ? What kind of excuses do they make specifically? Why is the latter statement that they made about the Holy Spirit such a "dangerous" statement? Why do you disagree with it - ??? A. This will literally take me all day long. Let me see if I can find just one example to prove the hundreds more.... Ok, This example is far less severe than others I've seen, but for sake of time I'm taking this example off of one of his recent sermons (picked at random). Example: Positive Trends, People and Events in the End Times - Bickle’s teaching notes from February 17, 2007. I will only address (I.) of Bickle’s outline. He quotes Joel 2:11 and Malachi 4:5, both of which refer to the “great” and “terrible” (or “dreadful”, or “awesome” - depending on the translation) Day of the Lord. The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it? Joel 2:11 (NIV) See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse. Malachi 4:5-6 (NIV) Now, it seems to me that your average fifth-grader would be able to deduce from these kinds of passages that the words “great” and “dreadful” are used in conjunction to emphasize the terrible gravity of the Day of the Lord. That they are expressing the same thing (even check out the Hebrew on this one if you like); namely, that the Day of the Lord will be an awesome (not synonymous with “cool”, but that which inspires admiration and wonder and fear) and dreadful display of God’s power and wrath against His enemies. But, no. Bickle teaches that these two words signify a dichotomous blessing/curse for those living at the end of this age - believers will be blessed, while sinners will be cursed. <!--[if>The 2-fold nature of the day of the Lord is seen in the great blessing it releases for those who call on Jesus and it is terrible in judgment for those who refuse Him. Mike Bickle (I., C.) As for why "Holy spirit loves to offend the mind, this is how you know it's God" is dangerous... ever hear of "passive mind"?? They are saying this because (EXCUSE) they cant support their manifestations (etc) with scripture, so they tell you to check your mind out at the door and use your heart (ie: emotions, feelings, etc). This is VERY DANGEROUS because its not only unbiblical, but it creates "passive mind." which completely explains their demonic manifestations and need for deliverance (because passive mind is grounds for possession. Read about it), which is a whole other issue in it of itself. Its very scary even. On top of that, this means you can no longer test scripture, but have to go off of emotion, feeling, and experience. This is actually WARNED about in the Bible. In other words, the bible teaches against it, not for it. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
on to Q #6 Did you know that a generational curse can exist in families and be the cause for sin??? Did you know there is Scripture support for that??? A: Okay, I'm not stupid. I was an avid IHOPer for years. I know all the doctrines, practices, and teachings well. First, generational curses ARE biblical. HOWEVER, they are NOT biblical for Christians. This is another example of twisting scipture/taking it out of context. In fact, I have the manual written by Graeme Walsh (the teacher on this issue at IHOP) on Generational Curses and Generational sin right in front of me. Allow me to type his scripture references: Exodus 20:4-5, Ex 34:6-7, Numbers 14:18, Duet 5:9, Duet 23:2, Duet 30:19, Jer 2:9. First, please notice these are all Old Testemant references. They all say about the same thing. Let me write one or two out for you so you don't have to look them all up. Notice for the first one, he only references Exodus 20 VERSE 4-5, which say, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me." Okay, first, what do the last 5 words say? "FOR THOSE WHO HATE ME." But, to prove its out of context because of the previous question... what does the very next verse say? "for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." All the other verses listed are the same. Soooo, their doctrine is WAY off. Christians are not affected by generational curses. It wasn't even that way in the OT. In fact, JESUS came out of the bloodline of DAVID, who was an adulterous murderer. He obviously didn't need to take ownership, repent, renounce. That stuff is total crap and extra-biblical. I am another example of someone without a generational curse. My mom's grandpa (dad's side) sold his soul to the devil, my mom's grandpa (mom's side) was a 32 degree MASON, my dad's dad was involved in witchcraft and (cant spell it) WEEGIE boards, his mom and entire family were Jahovah's Witnesses, my dad and his whole fam were drug addicts and alcoholics, and sex addicts, etc. I was the first in my family to know the Lord. I never had any physical ailments (havent even had a cold or flu since i was 10), never had any form of addiction, never struggled with sexual sin, never even touched alcohol (im 24)and never desired it or stuggled, never involved or interested in witchcraft, etc. And I never once renounced anything ever. Because HIS BLOOD IS ENOUGH!!!! | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Q #7 You said, "Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle has been proven to fabricate numerous "prophesies" and teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy." OK, do you have any proof of this stuff - ??? A: ABSOLUTELY. First, All of Mike's teachings are on tape. Also, his book "Growing in the prophetic" tells everything, including Mike teaching its absolutely OKAY to falsly prophesy. Second, the Mp3 set called "Encountering Jesus" is the supposed "prophetic history." These are all the prophesies of Paul Cain, Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle leading up to IHOP. He avidly believes and teaches them still. In fact, students/staff is required to listen to it. Here's a provable example that you can look up for yourself, and can't say I'm lying: In 1983 Bob Jones made a 'prophecy' that there would be three months of drought. Mike Bickle said at the time "Kansas City was known as the bread-basket of the world; it was the centre of grain farming, fanning out to a radius of five hundred miles. For the whole of June there was no rain! IT was terrible! For the whole of July there was no rain! It was terrible! No rain during the first week of August or the second or the third. It was terrible! Bob Jones said that the Lord had told him it would come on 23rd August. We had all been poised since early dawn that day, but by 1 pm there was still no rain. By six o'clock we were just resigned to wait another day when suddenly it began. And did it rain? It poured! No man could have manipulated that. It just had to be God!" Hill discovered, from the pastor of a charismatic church in Kansas City, that the whole prophecy is a lie! The pastor, Ernest Gruen, said there was no drought! The U.S. National Weather Bureau confirms that seven inches of rain fell on Kansas City in June 1983. It rained on 12 out of thirty days - almost half the month! On just one of those days, the rainfall was seven times the rainfall on 23rd August! So, the prophecy was a lie and a fake. What is far worse, is that Bickle afterward (that is, after knowing what really happened, and after knowing the prophecy to be false) claimed it to be true! Like I said in an earlier post, I know for sure he still stand by this even TODAY. He was just preaching on it last week. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
As for an unbiblical veiw of prophesy: First, Mike teaches that EVERYONE can and should prophesy. This is not Biblical according to 1 corinthians 12. Prophecy for Pastor Bickle is the speaking out of inner knowledge that is alleged to owe its origin to the Holy Spirit. The form, content and accuracy of the prophecy may vary from person to person depending on the "level" of their prophetic ministry. Biblical? I think not. Prophecy is not a public or private announcement of the impressions a person receives in his/her mind. Prophecy is from God, a proclamation of the Word of God; it is not a declaring of the mind of a person however spiritual and biblically literate he/she might be. Through a Christian's Bible reading, theological studies, exposure to teaching and preaching and other sources, concepts and images are formed and reflected upon. A reservoir of spiritual and biblical data is accumulated. From this storehouse impressions come to us. Expressing these impressions is normative and acceptable, but to call them prophecy is wrong and dangerous. Psychics (clairvoyants, astrologers, palm readers and a whole host of others), through their spirit guides or other spiritistic mechanisms, reveal details of a person's life and will predict events to come in the person's life. This is the common fair. This is not Holy Spirit prophecy. The psychic information may be completely correct and the predicted events may indeed come to pass. Still it is not prophecy from the Holy Spirit, but it is powerfully seductive to both the psychic and his/her subject. Accuracy of a prophecy is not a guarantee that the "prophet" heard from God. The sole criteria for judging prophecy must be whether it agrees with both the letter and "spirit" of the Bible. God may indeed do new things, but we believe never as to set aside the revealed written word. God has given us a means whereby we may ascertain truth and that is through the living Word, Jesus, and the written word, the Scripture. what is called prophecy in "Growing in the Prophetic" is a speaking out of a person's impressions and not more than that. If this is so, the error will have tragic consequences and may yet take on a demonic quality. "Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." - rev 19:10 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet. 2:1) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 4) | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#8 Why do you think your office meeting was "cult action" - ??? Do not cults actually try to keep its "members" rather than sending them away to another city, e.g. Toronto - ??? A: Actually, some cults do send people away to certain locations to isolate them, in order to brainwash them. As far as my meeting goes, I was lied to on every end. They brought me in there because I was testing scripture, wouldn't buy into their doctrines and spiritistic ways, and was asking to many questions/spreading truth of scripture. Their solution for this was to SEND ME AWAY. Furthermore, they told me NOT to tell my parents and NOT to tell anyone else. They also told me I will not be allowed anywhere near the premises UNLESS I WILLINGLY GO. They wouldn't even tell me what it was. Come on. Lets use our brains and discernment here. I think I have given you MORE than enough proof. I've become aware that you have certain ties to IHOP. That's okay. Like I said, I was an avid believer and promoter of IHOP for many years. Until I started reading my Bible, that is. But the truth be told, there is way too many false doctrines, teachers, etc. I LOVE the gifts of the Spirit, when they are practiced BIBLICALLY. Which is not the case for 90% of IHOP. There is SOOOO much more that I have both seen and experienced there that I haven't even come near touching on. There is just too much to write, for real. I so love the Lord and so love the Word of God. More than I love the "feeling" of whatever goes on there. Its sick. It really is. Test it for yourself using in-context scripture. I GUARENTEE, they will fail the test big time! In fact, you can ask my friends and family who know me best. My first year at IHOP, I bought into ALL their teaching and doctrine and became another person. But in a very bad way. I was so consumed with the manifestations and with deliverance. i even told my best friend she wasn't saved because she's never seen a healing! That's freaking sick! After being slapped across the face by close friends and solid scripture, I realized what was happening to me and hated it. I was always so depressed and felt I needed deliverance often. I was never like that before or since. This place is just not good. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 393 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.9.233 |
man, that was a lot of work, take a breather IHOP buster. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Hey, JBK asked! I don't want anyone to think I'm just making stuff up out of thin air here. Or that I don't have good reason to say what I've said. This is for real. I've for real heard and seen what i'm talking about. And it is for real, unbiblical. Thanks 40days!  | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
exihoper: Good morning, and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I'd like to make some responses to your answers, and maybe ask you some follow-up questions as well. Answer #1: Would you please give me a general definition of "false prophet" - ? That way I can understand why you believe the names you mention are "false prophets." The reason why I ask is because I am concerned you are entering into a logical fallacy called "ad hominem," where you label someone something to characterize them negatively, without logical cause. It sounds to me like you could be making an "ad hominem" type accusation here, and I would like you to clarify that please, before I discuss the names you mentioned further. Answer #2: I agree that deliverance is casting out demons. But that is a very biblical practice. I am not going to analyze the link you provided me, which I believe to be a biased article, but I am going to give you some Scriptures that show deliverance is necessary, sometimes even for born again Christians. However, before I share with you my thoughts in that area, I will critique Wetmore's Point 3 from the article, "Arguing that Christians can be oppressed by demons seriously misunderstands the nature of becoming a child of God." In his short paragraph or two that addresses this "major" point, Wetmore does not define the term "oppression." This is seriously bad exegesis on his part. In fact, nowhere in the entire article does he define the term at all. He does explain in Point 3 what it does mean to be a child of God, but he fails to connect it to the concept of "demonic oppression," which he says is not found in the Scriptures. However, it is clear, exihoper, that the concept of demonic oppression IS found in the Scriptures. The Apostle Peter said in Acts 10:38, "You know of Jesus the Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were OPPRESSED by the devil, for God was with Him." Jesus Himself said in fulfillment of biblical prophecy in Luke 4:18, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are OPPRESSED." This is fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1. Lastly, I think a good example of demonic oppression in the life of a born-again Christian was the "thorn in the flesh" that tormented the Apostle Paul. Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 12:7, "Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a MESSENGER FROM SATAN to TORMENT me, to keep me from exalting myself." Simply put, demonic oppression in the life of anyone can be defined as torment. It is very clear that Jesus came to deliver us from that, given the passages in Luke 4:18 and Acts 10:38. To say that the Bible does not teach "demonic oppression" then is an ignorant statement. So, exihoper, you must see that this is biblical. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 205 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
exihoper: Continued from previous post... Answer #3: Let me explain what I believe demonic oppression to me. It is NOT the same as possession. To me, demonic oppresion is basically torment. We know that Christians CAN be tormented because of the "thorn of the flesh," which God allowed Paul to experience in 2 Cor. 12:7. This was clearly a demon from Satan (that is how the Bible defines the thorn), and Paul says he experienced torment from this demon. Further, Jesus said He came to deliver from oppression, and Peter re-affirms that in Acts 10:38. I cover all of this in my response to Answer #2. I believe that basically oppression is demonic affliction. Can it be influence? Absolutely. I believe modern-day examples of demonic influence in the life of a believer is when a born-again Christin, for instance, starts to rely on drugs or alcohol, instead of God to "fix" their problems. You defined "oppression" correctly from the dictionary, and the Bible does teach that concept in Acts 10:38 and Luke 4:18 --- and you are totally INCORRECT when you said otherwise. Now, I have a lot more to say, so I'll come back later this evening and finish my preliminary responses. I am looking forward to a quality discussion based on what the Bible says concerning these issues. You may be surprised I even agree with you here or there.  But for now, I need to go. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Answer #4: I agree with you that SOME of these manifestations are not biblical at all. The ones that I believe are not biblical would include: animal sounds, burning sensations, compulsory movements or seizures, and orgasms. However, I believe the others you mention are biblical. "Holy laughter" has a premise in the Bible because of the verse, "Laughter does good like a medicine." I believe this is found in Prov. 17:22, and I have experienced this myself. "Slain in the spirit" really should be called "falling out under the power of God." This is biblical. The example is found in the OT, when the presence of God was too heavy, the priests could not stand to minister. We are the priests nowadays, so the presence of God can be so heavy on us, that we cannot stand up either. As for "extra-biblical revelation," could you explain what you mean here??? To me, this is really a separate category and not really a "manifestation" like the others. As for people acting like they are giving birth, and loud moaning, etc., to me this is all one in the same. The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit can and does groan through us in Rom. 8. That is what I believe this is describing. I will return later this evening with more responses to your answers, #5 through #8. Thanks for the dialogue. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Hi, I am into revival (have had holy laughter since 1995) and attend The River (Rodney Howard Browne's church), so you may be surprised by what I am going to say. At first, I was very much into the "harp and bowl" style of worship, but the more I research into what is actually going on, the more I am on the "this is on the cult side of the spectrum" I would like to ask some questions for anyone who attended the school. First, I should also say that after reading up on Bob Jones, who apparently is the one that confirmed the revelation of Song of Solomon/bride/bridegroom worship, I have tons of flags. Does anyone here feel uncomfortable with all of the, "I am God's lover, worship?" I do, and I actually think it may border on blasphemy. I love Jesus with all of my heart,and soul, and might. I believe in being passionate about God, but for me, I don't see that we should take Song of Solomon to be a metaphor for Christ and the Bride. I just don't see it. It looks like a love song from Solomon to one of his hundreds of wives and concubines. Jesus has one bride, and the church is not one of his hundreds of brides. I don't see anything in Scripture that backs up making a huge doctrine out of Song of Solomon. The bride of Christ is referred to as a number of things, and I think it would be theologically dangerous to start new ministries based on those metaphors. Ok, now here I may step on some issues, but I really need some answers, or at least opinions from those who've seen this first hand. I have watched the prayer and worship sets on God Tv,and one thing that I have noticed, (that is a little frightening) is that at any time, it comes on, no matter who is playing or singing, everyone is always doing the exact same thing. Have they been trained that there is a "new song" and that is the only one you can sing? I mean, I don't see any individuality or personalities coming through. If you see a worship team, everyone has their own flavor. Everyone worships God in their own unique way. I don't see that at Ihop. It even seems like everyone is trying so hard to sing this new style, that they are in essence striving to make sure they do it right? How is this pure worship? It seems contrived by man, when you get back to it. Why is everyone acting exactly the same? Ok, thanks. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Oh, maybe I should say this too. I have never once made an animal sound, or have ever witnessed that at Rodney Howard Browne's. Joy is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and I have plenty of joy. I believe in sound doctrine and also believe in studying the Scriptures. First, let me say that under no circumstance, would I ever exalt a manifestation above the Word of God. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Hi homesheart, Welcome to the conversation. I have not attended IHOP or FSM personally, but I have friends and acquaintances who have. We welcome your thoughts here. I have been corresponding though with exihoper. Exihoper, The next post(s) are for you as I continue my responses to your answers. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 209 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: Alright, as promised, here are more responses to your answers... Answer #5: As for believers being blessed and sinners being cursed in the last days, there are other Scriptures that teach that as well. One need not look at the OT, when this is clearly what Jesus teaches in the sheep and goat judgment that refers to the nations. Nations that honor God will be blessed, while nations that dishonor God will be cursed. I think Mike is not too far off base there with those two passages. I've never heard of the "passive mind." That just does not make sense to me, for the human mind is active, etc. However, if you are correct that they are telling people to check their minds at the door, and go by emotions and feelings, then YES, I agree with you, they are wrong. BUT --- I do not think you should go by EITHER one's mind OR one's emotions and feelings. Your mind is just as soulish as your emotions and feelings. What you really need to go by is being led by the Holy Spirit, amen - ??? Answer #6: You clarified and said that generational curses are not biblical for Christians. Well, now we need to discuss the atonement. I believe that redemption from generational curses, along with redemption from sin and sickness, was provided for at the cross. However, you are not simultaneously redeemed from both sin and sickness when you get saved. Rather, you still have to deal with sickness and appropriate by faith that redemption separately. The same is true for a generational curse. If you do not renounce it when you get saved, you still have to deal with it later. Does that make sense to you - ??? And let me say one more thing as regards to generational curses. First of all, I believe that generational curses are bondages and iniquities that are transmitted, if you will, from generation to generation. Praise God that you have never been affected by generational curses. Unfortunately you still have to be sober and aware because your children could be affected (it can skip generations). A personal example on my part is there is a lot of divorce on my Dad's side of the family, but my parents, who are NOT Christians either, are still married. I still have to be careful because I have to guard against divorce in my own lives, as well as my children's, ensuring a proper foundation, etc. Make sense? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 210 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Continued... Answer #7: I've read "Growing in the Prophetic." I think you misunderstand Bickle when he says its acceptable to prophecy falsely. I don't think that is what he is saying there. I think what he is saying, and this is what I personally believe as well, is that we are all human, we are all fallible, we can all make mistakes, and we can all MISS IT. And when that happens, and someone does not prophecy accurately, we need to give that person grace and mercy, rather than judge them. Yes, we should judge the prophetic word as wrong, for whatever reason, but that does not make the person a false prophet. A false prophet is defined as false because of his motives. You can prophecy accurately, and still be a false prophet because of your false motives. You can also prophecy IN-accurately, and be pure in your motives. I think that is what Bickle teaches. As regards to an un-biblical view of prophecy, Bickle is correct that EVERYONE can prophecy --- 1 Cor. 12 does, indeed, teach this gift is available to all. I cover this in my own blog, "World of Faith," which I encourage you to go read and study at http://www.worldoffaith.wordpress.com/ --- that should be the right link. You can look up my series on spiritual gifts and I look at the definition of prophecy, etc. in that entry. For now, however, I will say that 1 Cor. 12 teaches that the Holy Spirit is sovereign in the distribution of spiritual gifts, and because the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 12 are manifestational in nature, they can work in everyone's lives. Further, Paul exhorts in 1 Cor. 14:1, "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but esp. that you may prophesy." Paul is saying here that anyone can prophesy, and that everyone should seek after and covet that gift specifically. In fact, Paul repeats this in 1 Cor. 14:39, "Therefore, my brethern, DESIRE EARNESTLY TO PROPHESY, and do not forbid to speak in tongues." | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 211 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Continued... Answer #8: Hopefully this will be the last preliminary response I need to give in our discussion. I understand you were lied to, and that is unfortunate and wrong. I don't think this was cult-like, though, because you could just leave the program instead. There was a way out. This is re-inforced by the fact they refunded part of your tuition money. You could have just left the program and gone back to live with your parents, or whatever. That's probably what I would have done, should that have happened to me, personally. I would have also called my pastor in St. Louis (where I used to live), and discussed the situation with him, as well. I would definitely submit it to his counsel. Yes I have friends who are associated with IHOP. You may know one of them, Nathan Panke, from the time you were there. He and I have been in the past very close, but now because I live in Oklahoma City, we do not keep in touch as much, and I do not know if he is still in KC. Anyways, that's enough for you to consider for now. I do have more questions and comments for you, but I think I've said enough for now. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Homesheart: thank you so much for your posts. I agree with you, to an extent, regaurding the bridal paradigm and the prayer room. Yes they all do the same thing, but they DO all have their individual flavors. And I certainly like some leaders more than others. I found the prayer room to be very useful when studying my Bible and things at times. But mostly from the atmosphere. The majority of the prayer room leaders (especially during prophetic sets and worship with the word sets) are more focused on themselves and the people in the room than they are God, at times. What i mean, is that they will sing about what God does/feels for THEM instead of how awesome He is. Or they will ask God to bless them, instead of blessing God. So its not true worship, unless you worship yourself. But they do have regular church services. And I have to say I HATE going to the prayer room now because of what Godtv has done to it. Its invasive and its pretty much a TV set, instead of a prayer room. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
JBK: I think we will be on this subject for quite some time. #1False Prophet = a label given to a person who is viewed as illegitimately claiming charismatic authority within a religious group. The individual may be seen as one who falsely claims the gift of prophecy, or who uses that gift for demagogy or evil ends. It is also someone who claims something is from God (dream, vision, word, etc) that is unbiblical, or foretells of something that doesn’t ever happen. Throughout the New Testament, there are warnings of both false prophets and false Messiahs, and believers are adjured to be vigilant "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. (Matthew 7:15-23) "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (Matthew 7:15-23 NIV). "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. . . . For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect –- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time" (Matthew 24:10-13;24) "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them –- bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" (2 Peter 2:1-3 NIV). Here is the Bible’s clear definition: Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). By nature of what a prophet is/should be according to the Bible, my saying that they teach false doctrines, claim untruths about God, manipulate people with their authority, etc, are completely valid to the point. So no, I’m not committing Ad-Hominem falacies. Everything stated was completely valid. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#2 By way of YOUR definition of “oppression” I would agree with you. We can be afflicted and tempted by demons. But I don’t agree that demons are the cause for all of our sickness, sin, and problems. We too have wicked hearts. People still sin, get sick, etc in the millennium when satan is bound. No demons to blame things on there. But that is BESIDE the point I was making. I agree demons can come around and mess with us, if we let them, and afflict us, if GOD lets them. However, I apsolutely disagree that Christians can be POSSESSED by demons. In order to manifest a demon, you have to be possessed by one. In order to be possessed by a demon, you had to of given them ownership by way of submission to them, which means you’re not submitted to the will of God and He does not dwell in you. Christ specifically said that no man can serve two masters, and that no house divided can stand. You cannot serve demonic and Christ, nor can you have a demon possessing you if Christ indwells/possesses you. Its impossible and unbiblical. The verses you quoted: Acts 10:38, “How God anointed and consecrated Jesus of Nazareth with the [Holy] Spirit and with strength and ability and power; how He went about doing good and, in particular, curing all who were harassed and oppressed by [the power of] the devil, for God was with Him.” Again, your and the Bible’s definition of oppression is completely opposite of what IHOP teaches. This is the very point I was trying to make though. You proved it for me, even. But once again, this does NOT prove that this is true for Christians. Luke 4:18, “The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon Me, because He has anointed Me [the Anointed One, the Messiah] to preach the good news (the Gospel) to the poor; He has sent Me to announce release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to send forth as delivered those who are oppressed [who are downtrodden, bruised, crushed, and broken down by calamity]” So, this verse actually proves my point. It says Jesus announced the release to the captives and that He sent for as delivered, those who were oppressed BY CALAMITY (in the Greek). So, by nature of being a Christian, that means you have been SET FREE by Christ’s work on the cross. So why, then, do we need to continually be “delivered”? Is Christ’s blood and the cross on Calvary no enough? As for Paul, never at any point was he manifesting demons. This is the issue. Not being sick or bruised by evil/demonic, but the manifestation of demonic. Understand?? | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
#2 Cont... Furthermore, Paul warns Timothy about “paying attention to deceitful spirits and the doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1). But Paul does not suggest anywhere in the passage that Timothy's charges needed to undergo deliverance sessions. In fact, Paul may be warning that Christians can become too interested in such matters. How does Paul suggest we deliver those who have been tricked by demonic doctrine? He writes in 2 Timothy 2:25-26: “with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.” If they were in the devil's snare, wouldn't they need deliverance? Instead, Paul commands Timothy to correct them with gentle admonition. Think about the world in Peter and Paul's day. They were surrounded by pagan religions and many competing understandings of idols, spiritual powers and gods. Many of Peter and Paul's converts did not know what to believe about demonic influence, since their previous religions had many contradictory beliefs. In light of their probable confusion, we would have expected Paul to explain exactly how they should deal with spirit oppression, curses, fetishes, and power encounters in general. Yet he remains silent about all of this. Why? For example, Peter tells us to resist Satan. “But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace . . . will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.” (1 Peter 5:9-10) If the power encounter approach was true, we should expect Peter to tell us to bind Satan or cast out his demonic servants. What about the whole armor of God in Ephesians 6:12-20? Have you ever noticed that in this passage about spiritual warfare Paul never suggests in any way that we should speak to demons by name, bind them or cast them out? Instead, he tells us to stand against the heavenly forces of wickedness (11,13,14) by holding on to the truth (obviously God's word), holding on to our righteousness, being ready to proclaim the gospel, standing in faith, looking forward to our future salvation, and speaking the Word of God praying about everything. Surely, no one would ever suggest that these activities sound anything like deliverance ministries. They sound like the normal Christian life. The same holds true for James when he commands us to resist the devil that he might flee from us. (James 4:7-8) As for 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, I personally believe that Paul here has a disease brought upon him by Satan. Yet Paul does not rebuke it or command it to leave in the name of Jesus. Instead he tells us that he prayed about it. “Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Corinthians 12:8-9) Paul's approach to this "messenger of Satan" (we do not know if this is an illness or something else) is to ask God to take it away and then trust His perfect plan regardless. What is odd about this story (from a deliverance ministry's perspective) is that Paul does not record praying the prayer of faith, but instead pleads with God. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Answer #4: “Holy laughter has a premise in the Bible because of the verse, ‘Laughter does good like a medicine.’ I believe this is found in Prov. 17:22, and I have experienced this myself. “ Okay. The Bible says the word “laughter”!! Good job! You just committed your own fallacy. This, in no way, supports that the Holy Spirit comes upon whole groups of people to make them laugh. First of all, this NEVER happened in the Bible. Second of all, it NEVER happened until the Toronto blessing in the 70’s. Third of all, just because something is real, does not mean it is from God. "Slain in the spirit" Will you give me your Biblical reference for that one? I honestly would like to look into that. Thanks a lot! As for "extra-biblical revelation," You’re right, not a manifestation. Remind me and I’ll respond to this in another post. As for people acting like they are giving birth, and loud moaning, etc., to me this is all one in the same. The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit can and does groan through us in Rom. 8. That is what I believe this is describing. I read Romans 8, and I will agree that Holy Spirit can groans, and our spirit groans. Thank you. But as for the “giving birth” thing, that’s just out there. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Answer #4: “Holy laughter has a premise in the Bible because of the verse, ‘Laughter does good like a medicine.’ I believe this is found in Prov. 17:22, and I have experienced this myself. “ Okay. The Bible says the word “laughter”!! Good job! You just committed your own fallacy. This, in no way, supports that the Holy Spirit comes upon whole groups of people to make them laugh. First of all, this NEVER happened in the Bible. Second of all, it NEVER happened until the Toronto blessing in the 70’s. Third of all, just because something is real, does not mean it is from God. "Slain in the spirit" Will you give me your Biblical reference for that one? I honestly would like to look into that. Thanks a lot! As for "extra-biblical revelation," You’re right, not a manifestation. Remind me and I’ll respond to this in another post. As for people acting like they are giving birth, and loud moaning, etc., to me this is all one in the same. The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit can and does groan through us in Rom. 8. That is what I believe this is describing. I read Romans 8, and I will agree that Holy Spirit can groans, and our spirit groans. Thank you. But as for the “giving birth” thing, that’s just out there. Answer #5: As for believers being blessed and sinners being cursed in the last days, there are other Scriptures that teach that as well. One need not look at the OT, when this is clearly what Jesus teaches in the sheep and goat judgment that refers to the nations. Nations that honor God will be blessed, while nations that dishonor God will be cursed. I think Mike is not too far off base there with those two passages. not sure i understand? I've never heard of the "passive mind." That just does not make sense to me, for the human mind is active, etc. However, if you are correct that they are telling people to check their minds at the door, and go by emotions and feelings, then YES, I agree with you, they are wrong. BUT --- I do not think you should go by EITHER one's mind OR one's emotions and feelings. Your mind is just as soulish as your emotions and feelings. What you really need to go by is being led by the Holy Spirit, amen - ??? Well, yes we need to be led by the Spirit. And yes our hearts and minds are equally wicked. But we also need to use them and rightly divide the word of truth and test ALL things. That's all I meant by that. I was going off when I was talking about "Passive mind" dont worry about it, LOL. | ||
| exihoper New member Username: exihoper Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Answer #6: You clarified and said that generational curses are not biblical for Christians. Well, now we need to discuss the atonement. I believe that redemption from generational curses, along with redemption from sin and sickness, was provided for at the cross. However, you are not simultaneously redeemed from both sin and sickness when you get saved. Rather, you still have to deal with sickness and appropriate by faith that redemption separately. The same is true for a generational curse. If you do not renounce it when you get saved, you still have to deal with it later. Does that make sense to you - ??? Okay. Show me one scripture that tells us we need to renounce because Christ's blood wasn't enough. You wont find one, nor is it even taught. It says that God allows the curse to go on for those WHO HATE HIM. But He abondantly pardons and gives grace to those who love Him. I think you give too much credit to demonic and sin, and not enough to God's love and power. It is foolish to take ownership of something you never did, in order to renounce it. By living for Christ you renounce it in your life. Furthermore, by nature of becoming a Christian, you are BORN AGAIN. This means you are no longer sons and daughters of bondage and sin, but are now sons and daughters of GOD. You have a "new bloodline" spiritually speaking, from which there are no curses to be passed down. Make sense? What I am saying is that I think "Generational curses" (for christians) is saying that what Christ did is not enough and it ignoring every scripture on adoption and being born again, etc. Does this make sense, I hope? i love this! I love that you are so honest and open, and KIND, even. Thank yoU!!!!! | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Answer #8: I actually didn't get my money back. And, as I said before, they've been slandering me and sabatojing everything i do. It sucks. They also encouraged me not to tell anyone and to lie to my parents. This just isnt right. Even still, I am affected by what they are doing to me. I guess its hard to describe the things that I've seen, felt, experienced, and heard in the correct way to you and all in a small post. Especially with you not knowing me or whats going on, in full. All I know is that while I was here, I was filled with deppression and felt like a ton of bricks was always on my shoulder. I became something I'm not (in christ) and began secluding myself in an un-healthy way. I even acted and talked different/weird. I think at one point I told my friend she wasn't saved because she didn't speak in tongues....very bad. But as soon as I let all these doctrines go, stopped pursuing them, etc. I stopped having demonic visitations in the night. Started having dreams again (good ones). Started being happy again, full of joy in the Lord. And it isn't situational, because im going through the hardest time of my life currently, and still am full of Joy. Because I'm in the Word and standing on the truth of God. Not concerned with His hand or those doctrines, but only concerned about Loving Him and seeking His face. Thanks again, so much, for writing back and conversing with me with such humility and grace. God bless and until next time, hehe. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I haven't read the book myself, but I have read many reports that John Wesley experienced Holy Laughter. “Holy Laughter” is not new in the church. Eddie L. Hyatt in “2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity” writes that John Wesley and his brother Charles took a walk in a meadow intending to sing psalms in praise to God. Just as they started to sing Charles burst into loud laughter. Before long, John too was laughing uncontrollably. “Nor could we possibly refrain, though we were ready to tear ourselves in pieces, but we were forced to go home without singing another line..” (vol. 1 of The Works of John Wesley, pp.271-272). | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity (of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear), but [He has given us a spirit] of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Ok, This is taken from John Wesley's book: The Journals of John Wesley, chapter 3. He was discussing the manifestations that he was witnessing when many of the people were saved and Spirit filled. He describes being slain in the Spirit. At first, Whitefield was against the move, but you can read John Wesley's response. But anyway, the manifestations have been happening for a very long time, much longer than Toronto (which isn't even the first of the manifestations in current revival) Talks with Whitefield Friday, July 6.—In the afternoon I was with Mr. Whitefield, just come from London, with whom I went to Baptist Mills, where he preached concerning ‘the Holy Ghost, which all who believe are to receive’; not without a just, though severe, censure of those who preach as if there were no Holy Ghost. Saturday, 7.—I had an opportunity to talk with him of those outward signs which had so often accompanied the inward work of God. I found his objections were chiefly grounded on gross misrepresentations of matter of fact. But the next day he had an opportunity of informing himself better: for no sooner had he begun (in the application of his sermon) to invite all sinners to believe in Christ, than four persons sank down close to him, almost in the same moment. One of them lay without either sense or motion. A second trembled exceedingly. The third had strong convulsions all over his body, but made no noise unless by groans. The fourth, equally convulsed, called upon God with strong cries and tears. From this time, I trust, we shall all suffer God to carry on His own work in the way that pleaseth Him. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Doesn't matter. Just because someone says something is real, doesn't make it biblical. I don't care if an angel from heaven tells me, it has to be in the Word! Galatians 1:6-9!!! | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.231 |
exihoper: Are you Joe who contacted me through my blog? If so, I'd like to know, please. First, let me address some issues about these false prophets. Thank you for quoting the classic text for Matthew 7. Let me share with you how my pastor has defined "false prophet" based on this text. It is someone who allegedly has "good deeds" or "good words," but fails to point to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They may do signs and wonders. They may do wondrous works of charity. But they point elsewhere, rather than pointing to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, as to the Source of their deeds, etc. But, just because a prophet prophesies something, and gets it wrong, does not make him a false prophet. Let me say something about the test you cited in Deut. 18. That test does not exist anymore --- Jesus Christ came and eradicated the Law of Moses. We are now under the Law of Christ as believers and should be pursuing and following after grace and mercy, and not judging PERSONS. Yes, we can judge the words that a prophet says, but we CANNOT judge the person or messenger. Next, there is the issue of "oppression." I agree with you with what you said. Christians CANNOT be possessed by demons, but they can be oppressed, i.e. tormented and afflicted. We agree on these points. Where I disagree with you is when you said, "In order to manifest a demon, you have to be possessed by one." I disagree with that --- I believe that if a demon has manifested, then you are "vexed," which is NOT possession, but a SEVERE oppression. I do believe a Christian can manifest a demon, because a Christian CAN be vexed, or severly oppressed by a demon. But YES a Christian CANNOT be possessed by a demon at all. I think I understand what you're saying here. I think I agree with you that continual deliverance really is not biblical. I do believe, however, that there might be a new believer, if you will, who NEEDS deliverance and perhaps what I might call "inner healing" (although not how IHOP would define that term). By "inner healing," I mean EVERY person, including EVERY Christian has deep, inner hurts and wounds that need to be healed. This is NOT a continual process, but does need to be done once a person is saved, as part of discipleship. Finally, as regards to Paul, YES --- he never manifested a demon. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
People responded to the Holy Spirit the whole time in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. They spoke in tongues They prophecied They danced wildly (King David) All of the Prophets acted strangely Paul's Shadow healed people Paul's handkerchiefs healed people Peter and Paul worked miracles Why would God say that the gift of the Holy Spirit is for all that He calls, Acts 2: 17-18 (and there are a ton more Scriptures) but if the Holy Spirit is for the last days, and not for today, then that would mean we aren't in the last days- that doesn't make any sense. Why would God give gifts to the church then take them away so the church can't use them? 1 Corinthians 12. We are still the church, He gave these gifts for the church, and the church is still here. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I mean Peter's Shadow | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 214 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.231 |
Cont'd... I agree with you that basically from the other passages you cited Paul is basically pointing to a ministry of discipleship in correcting this kind of oppression. I also believe that you can pray for someone to be instantly relieved of specific kinds of oppression. Where I probably disagree is in the interpretation of 2 Cor. 12:7. I think the Bible is CLEAR the "thorn in the flesh" was a demon. The Bible describes it as a "messenger of satan." Sickness is NOT a messenger, but a demon is. And so that is what Satan sent Paul, NOT a sickness but a demon. Issue #4: Holy laughter. I do not believe it can come on a group of people. I do believe it can come on a person, who is open to it. And it HAS come on me before, as well. I do not believe I committed a fallacy by citing Prov. 17:22. The Holy Spirit simply moves on the person to make them laugh. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can move on a person to make them cry - ??? "Slain in the spirit." I would call this "falling out under the power of God." This happened twice in the Scriptures. Once it happened in the OT, when the priests could not stand to minister in the temple. If you google "priests could not stand to minister," you will find the verse. The other time it happened is when Jesus healed the ear before He was taken to Pilate, and the guards fell out because the presence of the power of God was so strong they could not stand and were knocked out. This is the same thing that happens when you lay hands on someone, and they fall out because the power of God and the anointing is so strong, that it overcomes them and they fall out. It is NOT a manifestation, but more of a side effect. As a male (and I don't know if you are a male or female, exihoper), I think acting like "giving birth" is "out there" as well. BUT --- if it is accompanying groaning, well --- I do not want to limit God. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 215 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.231 |
homesheart: Are you Joe who contacted me through my blog? I am trying to figure that out. Exihoper: Cont'd... Issue #5: I think Bickle has used two verses (the ones you originally cited) to make a point that he could have made using other Scriptures. In other words, he has confused the issue. To me, Bickle is NOT a good Bible teacher. He does have a prophetic gift, which may or may not be accurate, but as regards to Eph. 4:11, et seq., he is NOT a teacher in my estimation. More of a prophet to me. That being said, I agree with the conclusion he made about how believers are blessed in the last days, and unbelievers are cursed. To me, in the last days, the light gets brighter and the darkness gets darker. Does that explain things well??? Issue #6: Generational curses/sin/iniquity. Let me explain what I mean by "renouce" here. I believe that when you get born again, you need to repent of sin. Repenting of sin includes a degree of renouncing sin. By repenting of sin, you are renouncing it, and falling out of agreement with it, and saying to God you are turning from it, amen? Well --- renouncing generational curses operates the same way --- except you have not necessarily commited a sin. Instead, you are just renouncing iniquity and falling out of agreement with it. You can do this when you get saved, just like any other sin, or you can do it later when God reveals it to you. But that is what I mean by "renounce." The whole concept of generational curses stems from Deut. 28, which outlines the basic blessing and curse structure that is still in place today. According to Deut. 28, if you walk in faith and obedience, then you are blessed with all the blessings listed therein. But if you walk in unbelief and disobedience, then you receive all the curses --- and the Scriptures say in Deut. 28 that the curses are effectual to multiple generations, i.e. generational curses. That is where the concept originates. Does that make sense - ??? | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.231 |
Cont'd... Issue #8: I am really sorry about your situation. Why did you not contact your home pastor at your home church? Have you asked him to counsel you concerning these issues??? What city are you in now and where do you attend church? I am just trying to get a picture here of your situation, and point you in a direction where you can get some help. I hope you are getting involved in your church in a healthy way and are being discipled and coached by a pastor. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I have a question regarding Ihop and some things that I "haven't" seen via God Tv. Do they lift their hands during worship? Also, do they (Mike Bickle and leaders) pray over people and lay hands, etc.? Do they ever have a prayer line, and pray over people, like is so common with word faith? Thank, Charisse | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 218 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.231 |
Homesheart, I take it you are not Joe who contacted me via my blog. Thanks. Yes, they believe in lifted hands in worship. Yes, they believe in praying for people with the laying on of hands. I don't think they believe in prayer lines so much like WOF people do. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I'm a woman...lol. Charisse | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Homesheart: Actually they DO have prayer lines. JBK: really quick (i'll respond more later), I'm not joe, and I don't have a home church/pastor. | ||
| jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Homesheart: Ok. Yeah, I figured that out. Exihoper: Can I ask why you do not have a home church or pastor??? Did you have a home church or pastor before your time at IHOP - ??? | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I really have a problem with Bob Jones, and his being represented as a "father of thunder" through the Call. Did he go through a process of rebuke and restoration or anything? | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
homesheart: yes, quite a few times. but to no avail. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Do you know if Mike Bickle still associates with him? I'm sorry, but he just creeps me out... | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
actually yes. read some of the above posts... i wrote about how Bickle STILL lies about some of his "prophesies" still teaches jones/branham's false doctrines, and still calls Jones, "one of the greatest prophets ever to live" he talks about the guy all the stinkin time. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
actually yes. read some of the above posts... i wrote about how Bickle STILL lies about some of his "prophesies" still teaches jones/branham's false doctrines, and still calls Jones, "one of the greatest prophets ever to live" he talks about the guy all the stinkin time. In fact, last year at IHOP's 7-year anniversary, a ton of people were wearing t-shirts that said, "I love Bob Jones!" in support of Mike Bickle and his "encountering Jesus" series that everyone was required to listen to..... | ||
| firstgarden Member Username: firstgarden Post Number: 90 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
Hi exihoper - "Lou Engle and his wife just moved to kansas city (IHOP). So Mike and Lou are now literally joined." Are you sure this is true? I thought for sure Engle lived in DC. Where did you hear that he moved to Kansas City? Thanks, and blessings.. todd | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
i saw him myself in august when he announced it out of his own mouth. he said him and his wife are sleeping in sleeping bags even. so i am absolutely positive it is true. he used to be in DC, yes. But now he is in KC | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2069 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: I don't see how Engle & Bickle being together is such a bad thing (two are better than one). I've heard Engle preach and minister in person before, and he has a lot to offer the Body of Christ that is good. Sure, some of it is corny and flakey, but I think its better to chew the meat and spit the bones. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
yeah, "better to chew on the meat and spit out the bones"... thats exactly what bickle says.... too bad there are way too many bones to even enjoy the meat.... | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2071 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: I understand your point. But I was saying that about Engle, not Bickle. I have enjoyed the ministry of both, but Engle is better in my view, when it comes to empowering and encouraging people, compared to Bickle, who is a weak teacher if you ask me. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1705 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Another unscriptural position accepted as a truism by the unthinking adherents to the false gospel of WoF. "Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." (Luke 12:1) "Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." (Gal 5:7-9) "But I fear, lest perhaps as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes to you preaches another Jesus whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you did not accept, you may well put up with him!...For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." (2Co 11:3-4; 13-15) | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2909 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
exihoper I do believe in deliverance for Christians so in that we differ. If a Christian exposes himself to gross sin or the occult he may need deliverance in my opionion. There are sincere people out there who found themselves having manifestations at Toronto and IHOP and have left those movements because of it. So I think Christians can have manifestations and I don't think a manifestation means someone is automatically, not Christian. I do have a question though. A lot of kids that participated in The Cause event (mostly IHOP kids) over the summer had to fill out an application to participate and travel with these guys. The application asked: Personal and Family Information (your application will not be reviewed without this information.) 1. Please briefly share how you came to give your life away to Jesus, including the highs and lows of your life. You're encouraged to share both positive and negative things that are still affecting you today to help us understand you. This information will be used as we review your application.Please include one paragraph that accurately describes your present relationship with God. (1-2 pages typed on separate paper and stapled to application.) 2. Please write a summary of your relationship with your parents and siblings. Please be honest and seek to the best of your ability to give the reasons for the present circumstances. The truth no matter how difficult is not going to hinder you for being accepted into the apprenticeship. (Please also attach to application.) All applications are required to have these two biographical questions completed. 40 here: Are in depth applications like this used to get info to put kids through deliverance sessions? I mean I can understand The Call/Cause people being concerned about security and even asking if your a Christian but having someone divulge such personal stuff in such detail seems fishy to me. Anyway I was kind of rebuked for suggesting their in depth applications could be used for deliverance purposes or even for material for future Words of the Lord. So I would appreciate any insight you have about the subject. Thanks. Actually mcmstaff, JBK has convinced me that Bickle is not WOF or even much of a Protestant. His mind set is far more like that of RCC/Orthodox mystics who tolerate ghoulish things like the veneration of relics. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2911 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Also exihoper how would you rate the diet that people eat at IHOP? It does seem that excessive fasting is emphasized to kids associated with Bickle/Engle events. And they always seem to have another event coming up every few months with calls for heavy duty fasting, at least it seems like that to me. On the websites affiliated with IHOP, The Cause/Call they talk about fasting a lot and even mention eating just basic staples like rice and beans. Did you find that kids in IHOP were not getting enough protein or otherwise exposed to a diet that might hinder cognitive functions? I know fasting is suppose to open up spiritual doorways but the cynical side of me says its a good way to save money. I mean you have to pay IHOP in advance so you can fast? or if you do eat, you eat the most inexpensive staples available? Is that the way it is? It sounds like a neat trick I hope I am not being to cynical. http://louengle.com/articles/26 http://thecall.com/ The most devoted kids to these Engle events are IHOP kids. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
okay 40days. You are very wrong about Mike Bickle not being WOF and not upholding the Mystics. JBK has no clue what he's talking about. I've been under Mike Bickle's teachings for years and have even talked to him one on one. He is very WOF. He's also a great politician if you catch my drift. As for the questions on the application, those are the same ones they asked in the IHOP application. I have found, very much so, that those things were used against the students. And not at all in love or for "deliverance." Instead, they know exactly who is going to their schools and so they know how you think, what "Words from God" to give you, and how to manipulate you. i have caught certain people in leadership doing it a number of times and not just to myself either. It is very scary what I've seen some of them do. And that is an understatement. You can look past the lies, manipulations, etc and make excuses because you like what they have to say or the way it makes you feel. But the truth of the matter is, Mike bickle is a liar who supports liars and false prophets and it is very wrong to support someone like that. Its what we call a "wolf." and Lou Engle stand with him. I really dont know much about Engle he could be just as decieved as everyone else. Who knows. But his ministry is joined at the hip with Mike's. As for your comment on Christian deliverance. Your example was: "If a Christian exposes himself to gross sin or the occult he may need deliverance in my opionion." I would say, if a "christian" is involved in the occult or in so much sin that they are manifesting demons, I would argue that they aren't really Christians then. The whole premise of being a Christian is that you have to die to yourself and thus being "Born again" into a new life with a renewed mind. The term "Christian" means to be Christ-like. I don't care what you've seen or heard, I've never read anywhere in the Bible where any real christian needed any kind of deliverance or said any prayer against "generational curses." The curses and deliverance are for those who aren't walking with the Lord (remember Jesus came from a bloodline with a prostitute and murderers and never said a "generational curse" prayer nor did He need "deliverance"). I have lived to see the results of deliverance ministries and can confidently say that the Deliverance ministries are themselves the very cause for these manifestations. We give too much credit to the enemy and not enough credit (at all) to GOD or the blood that was shed to set us FREE once and for all. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 50 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Oh, and as for the fasting... lets just say that everyone is either very skinny or very rebellious. I lost 40 lbs going there. I was also very sick all the time, as are a lot of others. and mcmstaff78, you are completely right-on. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 51 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
And JBK, as for your "chew on the meat" theory. Our first semester at IHOP we were required to read a book for a class. Most of the book was complete heresy. The sixth chapter of the book is what set me off though. It said and expounded upon the author's veiwpoint that, "God is sexually aroused by His people." When IHOP leadership (more specifically, the teacher who happens to also be the president of the school) was confronted about our required reading, he refused to take the book off the self and responded by urging us to, "chew on the meat and spit out the bones." those were his actual words. The problem with this is not only did the entire book defame and degrade the name of God with heresy, but it was negatively affecting people who had much less spiritual knowledge. Even my roommate told me how, when she read that chapter she began to have sexual thoughts and thought it was "okay since God feels that way." And she was definitely not the only one with this experience. And knowing this full well, they did nothing about it. Their only course of action was to become angry at me for saying anything. That kind of shows you what they're like, doesn't it? | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2074 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
exihoper: What makes you think Bickle is WOF? Also, I would not call Bickle a "wolf," for he is your brother in the Lord and you do not want to slander a brother's reputation like that. A wolf is someone who does NOT point people to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior as a result of what he does. Bickle DOES point people to Jesus, and so he is not a wolf. What is the title of the book please? Yes, I would be concerned about that chapter. Why do you believe this book was full of heresy? Again I would like the book's title please? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1711 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
40, you're a hoot. I try not to make comparisons regarding things about which you know little. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 54 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Well I suppose Joseph Smith isn't a wolf either, even though he pointed people to Jesus. Or the catholic priest who molested boys and girls because he pointed people to Jesus..... catch my drift? Even Satan himself comes dressed as an angel of light. And as for WOF. I dont think he is, I know he is. Not only does he uphold the teachings and highly revere of ALL wof teachers (also having us read their books, listen to their sermons, and on occasion, have them speak at a church service) but he teaches much of the same doctrine that they do. Mike Bickle is VERY much WOF. [In case you're wondering, some of these teachers include: John Bevere, Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn, Bishop Eddie long, Kim Clement, Kenneth Copeland, Rodney Howard-Brown, Oral roberts, Paula White, Etc.] Furthermore, I have personally heard him and other Ihop leaders teach that faith works like a mighty power or force. You hear it in the prayer room ALL the time, even. They teach that, through faith, we can obtain anything we want -- health, money, sucess, whatever. They also teach that this "force" is only released through our own spoken word. So as we speak the words of faith, power is released to fulfill our desires or whatever was asked. I mean, I have heard so many terrible sermons by Bickle and others there. They make God seem like less than He is and make us seem like much more than we are. They make it sound like God NEEDS us, which is entirely untrue. He may want us, but He definitely doesnt need us. The title of the book was "The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus" written by a Franciscan Priest named Brennan Manning and I could give you a detailed exegesis of what was wrong with it, if you like. The specific chapter I refered to was chapter six. I believe this is the same author who wrote "The Ragamuffin Gospel." | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2076 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.160 |
Exihoper: No, Joseph Smith didn't point people to Jesus. He pointed people to the Mormon Church and to HIMSELF! That's clearly not what Bickle, Engle, etc. do. They DO point people to Jesus as the Source, the Lord, and the Savior. I agree that a catholic priest who is molesting is a wolf, I think that's obvious. That priest is not pointing anyone to anywhere or anyone. However, Bickle and Engle are not molesters, and they are not creating their own cult where Bickle and Engle become "gods" to their followers, much like Joseph Smith did for Mormonism. I think for you to compare Bickle and Engle to Joseph Smith, or to a molesting priest is far-fetched, exihoper. I find it interesting that you think Bickle is WOF. I know a lot of Bickle's history, including the period when he was affiliated with Vineyard. Bickle is originally from St. Louis, and so am I. I know when he started pastoring at what is now Victory Fellowship. So far as I know, Bickle does not have the dispensationalistic theology that is inherent within WOF. As regards to eschatology, I think most WOF preachers (e.g. the ones you mentioned) would DISAGREE with much of Bickle's theology as it relates to End Times, which is a common theme in Bickle's sermons. To say that "through faith, we can obtain anything we want," is a horrid paraphrase of what WOF actually teaches. A much better way to put it, and a more accurate WOF teaching is "through faith we can obtain anything God desires us to have," and yes, health and financial abundance would be including with that, as is SALVATION. Faith truly is the currency of God's Kingdom, and you must exercise it to (1) please God (Heb. 11:1) and (2) receive salvation, healing, deliverance, blessing, and everything else that has been provided for you as it pertains to life and godliness (Rom. 10, and other Scriptures). To say faith is a "force" is bad terminology. Love and compassion IS a force, but faith really isn't. However, I would agree that faith is released through our words. And I have Scripture to back that thought up --- are you interested in that - ??? Lastly, about Manning's book that you mentioned, thank you. I am VERY surprised that Bickle and IHOP endorses this guy. Because Manning is rather close to a heretic, and I agree with you he should not be read by anyone who is a serious Christian. On the other hand, not everyone who is close with Bickle and Engle endorses everything... I do not think JPJ would care for Brennan Manning's stuff, and he would not endorse or promote that BS. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
I do not believe in WOF, just to make that clear. Or at least the way Bickle teaches it. What i wrote were things I've heard Bickle & other IHOP leadership teach. So yes, calling faith a "force" & saying "thru faith we can obtain whatever we want" is horrid. I completely agree. Also, I wasnt comparing bickle to a molester or Jo smith. Just making a point. Also, if u look at Bickle's history, you'll also know that he taught "Manifest Sons of God" & "Kingdom Now" among other like doctrines. So given Bickle's history, hes been known to think/teach that he'll be a god. Though he took those doctrines off the shelf after the Paul Cain scandal, they resurfaced more recently in his teaching at IHOP. Only, a little "refurbished." Sure faith may or may not be released thru words. But when I say they teach things like this, I mean they take them to the extreme. To the point where you're paranoid of saying anything at all because of the spiritual affect it may have on someone. Its rediculous. i mean, sure we must be careful with our words, but they take it to another level. Make sense? And, yes, them strongly supporting manning is BS. As for JPJ, honestly, i know little about him at all except that bickle supports him. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
I must say, there were some very good people (in leadership) at IHOP with a very solid relationship with the Lord who genuinely loved Jesus and wanted more of Him. But more than there were solid teachers/lovers of God, there were false teachers and people who manipulate others for gain. People who are in it for fame and for whatever else. Now with GODTV in the picture it is only getting worse. For IHOP to be like this after only 7 or 8 years is sad. I am just frustrated because it seems like everyone is looking past the obvious red flags and making excuses. they just except whatever they are taught without properly testing the scriptures themselves. I'm sick of all the lies and deception in the church. I'm sick of all this "feel good" crap. Job didn't "feel good" i'll tell you that. Neither did 99% of God's people. They went to hell and back but still trusted the Lord. In the New testament and the old. The church in america is nothing like acts at all. I think Paul would roll over in his grave if he saw what the church has become. That being said, I think that reducing God to all this feel-good manifestation, signs and wonders crap is degrading the very name of God. Jesus Himself has said, "a WICKED and PERVERSE generation seeks after a sign and a wonder." Go to the prayer room just once and every other word out of their mouth is "give us a sign and a wonder!" Just like the pharasees cried out for. But that is NOT AT ALL what the true lovers of God were like. NO. They didnt NEED a sign or wonder or anything. Nor did they constantly ask for one. They knew their God. They knew what He could do. They also knew that He was going to have His way whether they liked it or not and chose to stand with him. Just like in Daniel, they said to Nebucanezzar (in boldness) that their God would save them, and IF NOT, they would still never bow. THAT is what God is looking for. Not a bunch of power-hungry sheep who dont really want God just because He loves us, but they want God because of what they think He can do for them (not in a positive way). That is what our church and IHOP has become. I know, I went there. Everyone walks around all depressed that they dont have the annointing and that God isnt giving them what they want. They are so dissillusioned by a false perception of who God is and who we should be in Him. That being said, I DO believe God loves us and wants the best for us. But the point is, ITS NOT ABOUT US!!! Its about Him and HIS glory. Its for HIS name, not ours. I'm just rambling now out of frustration.... | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 60 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
ps. I agree with this guy, lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gworC0-oQbw | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 2927 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.193.166.35 |
exihoper I was not claiming above that Bickle is not into the Mystics or their writings. Earlier I assumed that Bickle was WOF because of his friends and I asssumed he was prosperity oriented like most in WOF. JBK though told me that Bickle likes to dress casual and is not a materialistic guy. So I was taking JBK's word on this about Bickle not being WOF. Then I noticed that Bickle promotes a lot of books by mystics who are ascetics. The Nazarite vow stuff, fasting, denying self.... Anyway, Mike Bickle is obviously into the Mystics, Desert Fathers...etc. and is very big into that and he promotes books on that subject. So I was not claiming he was not into them in my earlier post. A lot of the contemplative prayer is centered around the writings of RCC monks who adopted prayer techniques from eastern religions, Hinduisim, Buddhism...etc. and these monks had Eastern spiritual revelations practicing this stuff. So I do find this very disturbing that Bickle seems to be promoting Eastern prayer techniques at his prayer centers. I would say the Bridal Paradigm / Jesus is your personal Lover stuff is what most out there are the most uneasy about when it comes to Bickles ministry. I bet Bickle has been confronted with these concerns many times but he does not care. (Message edited by 40days40years on September 25, 2007) | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2078 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: Unlike WOF, "manifest sons of God," and "kingdom now" are not just doctrines, but they are buzz phrases. So, I need you to explain what these "doctrines" mean to you, because they mean different things to different people. The way I define these terms might be different than the way you define, so lets get on the same page here. Let me say something about John Paul Jackson (JPJ). I know Bickle supports his stuff, but that does not necessarily mean its mutual. JPJ has a very different flow compared to Bickle and Engle, he sounds more grounded and balanced to me in his teachings, and he also has personally moved from New England to Dallas, I believe. I do agree with you that the church in America is nothing like the church in the Book of Acts, and that really REALLY is a sad indictment. I think most of the ones I associate in my circle want to get back to the Book of Acts and what life was like in the early church period. However, "signs and wonders" is a necessary demonstration of the Kingdom of God in power. If you look at the Book of Acts, what was done in that period, the "acts," so to speak, were the signs and wonders we should be DOING as the church (not just platform ministers, mind you) --- i.e. we should be ALL OF US praying for people and seeing people healed, delivered, set free, people being saved, etc. This is what I think of when "signs and wonders" come to mind. The fact that a wicked and perverse generation would seek for a sign means that they NEED to see the Kingdom of God be demonstrated in power. This is very true in the world today. You cannot win someone to Christ by just convincing them your "doctrine" is right. This does not work in Muslim countries, for instance. Rather, you preach the healing, miraculous, saving power of God, people get healed, and then they get saved because God is MERCIFUL, amen? Signs and wonders are thus one of the ways that God gets the attention of people who desparately need Him as their Lord and Savior. 40: A word about fasting and denying yourself. I think thoese two things are necessary, but for separate reasons. I don't fast very often, but many churches are beginning each year with a 21-day fast. Mine does not do this, but I am praying about whether I should do so personally, or to a lesser extent. As regards to denying yourself, that is a fundamental aspect to the Christian life. Jesus said we are to take up our cross (deny ourself) and die to ourself and follow Him. And yes, Bickle doesn't care because he is so absorbed into his theology and ways of doing things. But I wouldn't care, either, if I was in his position. God needs to move in personam if he needs to be corrected in this area. It would have to come from God Himself and not a man. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 61 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Okay, I think we are starting to get on the same page here JBK. I agree with you that MIRICLES are definitely part of God's ministry and even neccessary in some cultures when it comes to PREACHING the gospel. This isn't my issue. I definitely believe in healing the sick and seeing people restored because of their FAITH in Christ and His work on the cross. What I was saying is that this MUST be coupled with the PREACHING of the gospel, that GOD might be glorified (not these supposed super apostles). Do you get what i mean? There is a very big difference between how miricles should be used and what IHOP leadership is seeking. (I say leadership because not all the students agree with leadership's doctrine.) Furthermore, I dont believe in teaching a "Formula" to win souls, pray, or anything. Scripture says to SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM and THEN these things will be added. It says to Delight yourself IN THE LORD and THEN he shall... I'm saying that we need to stop seeking the Lord's Hand and start seeking His face. Because if we seek His face, then He is faithful to give us His hand when the time is right. Do you see what I'm saying. Its about knowing Christ and taking part in His death that we may just have the grace to take part also in the ressurection. Its about knowing the Son of God that we might know God and walk according to HIS purpose, not ours. Sure scripture says that we will do even greater works than Christ, but not apart from knowing Him and walking according to HIS purpose by walking in LOVE. Not to exalt ourselves with some elitist mentality. I hope this is making sense.... | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 62 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
To clarify on Manifest sons of God and Kingdom now. As far as I understand this is what they are. MSOG: The teaching that in the last days, a "new breed" of Christians will arise - the "Manifest Sons of God" - who will have super-natural spiritual power and be instrumental in subduing the earth. This movement is also referred to as "Joel's Army." (ps. Joel's army is a bad army if you read it). It is claimed that these people will be perfected into their "glorified bodies" prior to Christ's return. That perfection will allow them to subdue the earth for Jesus (as if He needs any help at all). Proponents of this doctrine also claim Christians, having a "divine nature," become "gods." (originally Bickle taught this, along with Paul cain and Bob Jones). They say Christ came into us as a "seed" and grows into a "prophet." Thus Christ does not physically return, but returns within us. The rapture, according to this doctrine, will be of the wicked - not of believers. (I have actually heard Mike preach Matthew 24 that way...that it is the wicked being "raptured" not christians). This teaching is also part of what is known as 'dominion theology' which teaches that an elite army of 'overcomers' will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world (Joyner has also been said to teach this). The government of the nations will be upon their shoulders and when all the secular authorities, governments, princes and kings have finally submitted to them, Christ will return and they will present the kingdom to Him. The doctrine also includes the idea that Jesus was sent as a "pattern" for the corporate church. And the "Corporate church" in this context means that the church becomes Christ. Christ is considered not complete without us because he is the head and we are the body. (i've also physically heard Bickle and other IHOP leaders teach this, especially Allen Hood). The current church, according this this view, has the "spirit of the anti-Christ." I have been told that this teaching is akin to gnosticism. .... | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Kingdom Now holds that Jesus cant return unless/until "the Church" subdues/rules the earth. KN comes in various flavors, goes by many different names, & permeates several related movements (Latter Rain, MSOG, Dominion theology, & 5Fold Ministry) The basic premise of Kingdom Theology is man lost dominion over the earth when Adam & Eve succumbed to Satan's temptation. God "lost control" of the earth to Satan at that time, & has since been looking for a "covenant people" who will be His "expression," in the earth & take dominion back from Satan. This will be accomplished thru certain "overcomers" who, by yielding themselves to the authority of God's apostles/prophets for the Kingdom Age, will take control of the kingdoms of this world. These kingdoms are defined as all social institutions ("kingdom" of education, "kingdom" of science, "kingdom" of the arts, etc) Most especially theres the "kingdom" of politics/government. This being a concentration of military & police power in the hands of those in control during the Kingdom Age. Theyre referred to as the "many-membered man child," whom KT adherents believe is the fulfillment of Rev 12:1-5. Those who hold to KT assume the Church (some believe only a small group within the Church, called "overcomers"), under submission to the latter day apostles/prophets, IS that man child, & it has the responsibility to put down all rebellion & establish righteousness. This necessitates the utilization of supernatural power & the full implementation of the gifts of the HS. This theory is based on the idea that all authority in heaven & earth has been given to Jesus. Since believers are indwelt by the same HS that indwelt Jesus, we have all authority in heaven & earth; we have the power to believe for/speak into existence things that are not, and thus we can bring about the Kingdom Age. The many-membered man child must take control of the earth before Jesus can return. Necessary to the Kingdom Age is "the Restoration of the Tabernacle of David," defined as the completion of perfection of the Bride of Christ-a Church without spot or wrinkle. During the Kingdom Age (or after all is subdued) Satan & all enemies of God will be put under the feet of the many-membered man child. This will be the fulfillment of 1 Cor 15:25-26: "For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." The rationale that the many-membered man child will put God's enemies under 'its' feet is that Jesus is the head of Christ & the Church is the body of Christ. And where are the feet but in the body? Many in the Kingdom Theology movements insist that when this Scripture refers to Christ it is really referring to the Church who is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is necessary for them to establish within the minds of Christians the idea that, as the Body of Christ, we are Christ. In other words, we have His divine nature. Notice that this idea, similar to that of mind science & other false religions, separates the anointing of "Christ" from Jesus & bestows it upon all who come into a place of certain knowledge and spiritual attainment. This is a heresy that is as old as the Church. It is rooted in the Greek school of philosophy known as Gnosticism. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1715 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Jonathan, I'm curious, in what Muslim countries are there people preaching "the healing, miraculous, saving power of God" and then Muslims are getting "healed" and "saved"? A better demonstration is that of love and the fruit of the Spirit, which is so lacking in both Muslim countries and our own. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 66 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Mcm: agreed if we could but love God and love our neighbor, then nothing else matters. but the church lacks the one thing Jesus lived and died for: LOVE unto the glory of God. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2079 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: Oh, I absolutely agree with you that the PREACHING and proclamation (sp?) of the gospel is absolutely necessary for the Holy Spirit to work a transformation in people's lives (to get them salvation, etc.) I think I agree with the rest of what you said in post 61. Wow, that is a lot to digest about MSOG theology. I think I would agree with part of it, and I think I would DISAGREE with part of it as well. So, let me take what you said line-by-line, and show where I agree and where I disagree. I do believe that we are in the "last days" and that there is going to be a "generation," i.e. a group of people who will be endowed with supernatural power to subdue through the power of Christ. I do NOT believe that these people will receive "glorified bodies" before everyone else does, and to claim that "manifested sons of god" WOULD receive "glorified bodies" before everyone else would contradict the Scriptures and almost be heresy, according to one of my former pastors. So, I disagree with MSOG theology on that point. As regards to Christians having a "divine nature" and becoming "gods," that's not entirely correct, although there is some truth to that. First of all, I do believe that the Scriptures teach that we as Christians are "partakers of the divine nature," according to Heb. 6. In fact, we have received a "new nature" as we have been born again. As regards to becoming "gods," I believe that we were created in God's image and God's likeness, that we are the "god-class," if you will, and this is what Jesus referred to in John 10:34, quoting Psalm 82. Because we have been created in God's image and likeness, we have God's power to exercise His authority, and OBEY GOD in our lives, subduing the enemies in our lives, i.e. sin, sickness, and any work of the devil or work of the flesh. Does that make sense??? To deny the physical return of Christ is heresy. To deny the rapture of the church (which I believe in, except I have a mid-trib view personally), is ALSO heresy. I do believe in an End Times army in which ALL Christians are to be enlisted for service (and NOT JUST ELITE Christians), which will help usher in the End Times harvest of souls. I believe a great part of this will be Christians assuming roles of leadership and responsibility in ALL arenas of life, including government, but also business, the arts, etc. I do NOT believe that all secular authority will be Christianized before Christ physically returns to judge the nations. If all secular gov't is Christianized before Christ physically returns, then there can be no judgment of the nations, which is promised in the Scriptures, amen? As regards to the "corporate church" doctrine, I just do not understand it, but from what you've described, I would dismiss it as not correct. Cont'd... | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2080 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: Continuing from above, I'll next comment on your post #63, which discusses "Kingdom Now" theology. Again, I agree with part of it, and disagree with part of it. I believe the Kingdom of God is BOTH a present AND future reality. The Kingdom of God has already been "inaugurated" according to George Ladd (I agree with much of his theology in this area), but has a future fulfillment with the physical return of Christ, which will be the consummation, etc. I do agree that mankind lost "dominion" when Eve, and then Adam, gave into the temptation of the devil in the garden. God had given Adam a commandmant to subdue the earth. This is recorded in Gen. 1:28, when God said, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and SUBDUE it; and RULE OVER the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky and OVER every living thing that moves on the earth." This commandmant is re-iterated in Gen. 2:15, "Then the Lord Good took the man and put him in the garden to CULTIVATE it and KEEP it," which again is basically to subdue it, and keep it under subjection to God's rule from heaven. Adam is thus God's representative until the fall. I do not agree that God "lost control" of the earth at the fall. It is mankind that abdicated control to satan. But because of the fall, man has fallen out of favor with God because of SIN, and thus God DOES want a "covenant people" to enforce God's covenant on His behalf. I do NOT believe, however, that this will be accomplished through "certain overcomers." Again, I believe that there is an End Times army, in which EVERY believe should enlist himself in surrender and devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is WRONG to teach that only CERTAIN individuals or SELECT Christians are "overcomers," because EVERY believer is called to be an overcomer over the sin in their life, and if they have sickness, then that as well, and if they have some sort of oppression or addiction or bondage, then that as well. Again, I do also believe that Christians will take leadership roles in many areas of life, including government, but that does NOT mean that ALL secular authority will bow before the physical return of Christ, and I hope I've made that clear above. As regards to all the "man child" stuff, I don't understand that, and so I really cannot comment about it, except that because I lack understanding here, I dismiss it as wrong. I do agree with the theory that as believers, we have God's authority and power to speak into existence things that are not, and thus we can bring about the Kingdom, in a fuller measure, but NOT THE FULLEST MEASURE. Again, this "many-membered man-child" crap is BS. WOW, that is a HORRIBLE explanation of the restoration of the Tabernacle of David. I do believe in that restoration, but I define that as simply a return to Davidic-style praise and worship in the life of a congregation. Nothing more and nothing less than that. I think that's enough on what you wrote. What do you think about some of these ideas - ??? | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2081 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: I heard this report third-hand (from my pastor who heard it from another pastor who experienced it himself). I am not sure which Muslim countries Mike Keyes was referring to, but Mike Keyes is the one that originated this report about Muslims and what is happening in Muslim nations. I'm positive that Mike Keyes experienced this first-hand in his crusades, etc. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
JBK. I think you're more on the right track than before. But i dont entirely agree with everything you said. None of it is herecy, mind you. Just different interpretation of scripture or me misunderstanding what you mean.... Tab of David, i think will be the physical tabernacle. Personally i believe that the 7-year treaty from Antichrist will involve the rebuilding of the temple (but thats not biblical just opinion). But it does say that Antichrist will stand at the TEMPLE during the abomination of desolation. So its definitely a physical temple. no biggie. I dont agree with your interpretation of the divine nature/god thing. Maybe i just dont like the word "god-class" but even the best of us (after being saved) are nothing more than wretched dust. Even paul. I don't believe we HAVE God's power. I believe God has God's power and chooses, out of friendship, to use us as willing instruments to do His will and glorify His name. I don't believe that we can "use" His power like a sorcerer would use thier power to control/manipulate things. Rather that God allows us to partner with Him..... like the elephant and the mouse who were holding up the falling bridge. The mouse says to the elephant "look! we are holding it up!" Make sense? But I do agree that He has given us authority. But we only have authority because He's given it. I feel the need to emphasize that it has nothing to do with us and everyhing to do with God. He doesnt need us. We need Him. We possess no power at all. Its GOD that does the work. We merely ask and it will be given. See the difference? ... | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
...cont.... please explain what you mean by the kingdom of God being both now and at the coming. sure they lost "dominion" and all you said in that paragraph. but, as you said, KN takes it too far. And of course God didn't lose control, thats absurd. Actually everything else you wrote besides the tabernacle sounds fine. I'm also definitely NOT pre-trib. I'm not exactly mid-trib either. More like pre-wrath which is a little after the middle. Much of what you agree with, I do as well (other than what I've stated above). IHOP takes even those things to another level. Its being used to start their own entire community that will be the "overcomers" or the "elite" or the "super prophets/apostles." Its all done in arrogance and misrepresantation of scripture. But thats how the enemy loves to work. He USES scripture by taking big chunks of truth and a twisting it with the lie. But if you have 99% water and 1% poisen, you will still die from the poisen. Its still poisen no matter how you look at it. Same with how the Devil lies and uses people to lie and create false doctrine like that. These are the kind of things i'm talking about. I hope you're finally starting to understand where I'm coming from (at least a little). | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1716 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
So nice to be positive! But, knowing how preachers tend to spread stories without ever having substantiated the facts, I'd be extremely surprised to find this to be true. Wonder how a judge would react to trying to get something like this admitted into evidence? Not just "hearsay", but third (or more) party hearsay with no details whatsoever (you might also notice that stories like these rarely have any details - that way they cannot be checked up on). Do you ever get the feeling that all of WoF is based, ultimately, on hearsay? | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2082 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: But David never physically built the TEMPLE that was destroyed. You need to read up on your biblical history. It was Solomon's work that was destroyed in 70 A.D., not David's. You're right that we are nothing but wretched dust, but ONLY if we do not have God. Without God, we are NOTHING. But with God, we are NOT wretched dust anymore, because God lives in us. You said, "I don't believe we have God's power." So, how do you interpret the Scripture in Luke 10:19, which says, "Behold, I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and and over all the power of the enemy." - ??? And then how do you interpret Acts 1:8, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses," etc. -- ??? These are the very words of Jesus Christ, and these verses imply to me that we have power and authority BOTH that God has given us. I agree with you that we cannot use this power/authority to control or manipulate people. But I strongly do believe we can use this power/authority to speak to circumstances and cause them to change. That is what Mark 11:23 is all about. The Kingdom of God is BOTH a present reality AND has a future fulfillment. It is a present reality because the Kingdom has come to (1) rule over our hearts, and (2) to extend into our own PERSONAL spheres of influence. In other words, the Kingdom of God extends into wherever we go, because we take it there (our heart is there). For instance, if you are a student, the Kingdom of God has come to your school or university. If you work, then the Kingdom of God is extended into the sphere of your workplace. Stuff like that. But the Kingdom of God also has a future fulfillment. This is when Jesus Christ physically returns to and establishes God's Kingdom in its fulness, because at THAT POINT, every knee must bow and tongue confess, etc. At this point everything must come into full subjection to Jesus Christ and His Lordship, etc. This is the future fulfillment of what we have in ONLY A MEASURE RIGHT NOW. Make sense? I think I am understanding where you're coming from. Like you've said, even not every student agrees with the IHOP leadership on some of these issues. I bet many students lack understanding as well, even with items like many-membered man-child, whatever that is. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2083 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: The Kingdom of God is not the same as a courtroom. So, you cannot bring the concept of hearsy in as an appropriate analogy. Unless you consider yourself a legalist, and that's not cool, mcmstaff. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1717 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Jonathan, so you believe absolutely anything anyone whom you perceive to be in "the Kingdom of God" tells you? You don't believe in evidence? Scripture states "faith is the evidence of things hoped for", so evidence is a scriptural principle. Unfortunately, you demonstrate once again the utter gullibility that hucksters such as whomever spoke about the preaching being done in Muslim countries relies upon to separate people from their money. P. T. Barnum was absolutely correct (well, it wasn't really Barnum who made the assertion about suckers, etc., but he always gets the credit). I've heard more fabrications, "evangelizations" and outright lies from the pulpit of WoF then I would care to count. IF you insist that "signs and wonders" are a demonstration of God's Kingdom and bringing people to Christ; and if you use stories of where this is happening to encourage others to either a) "step out in faith" and follow the example or; b) give money to support such efforts, it is contradictory and oxymoronic to claim that evidence for such is irrelevant and doesn't apply. In fact, you assertion above may be the most absurd and hubristic statement I've read from a WoF advocate. Bizarro!! | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
ephesians 1:6-9 for MCM and JBK on that issue. Jbk: as for what I said about "I dont believe we have God's power" i simply meant that I dont believe we posses the power unto ourselves. But He does give it to us as He sees fit for His glory. In other words, we arent given the power and we have it forever to do whatever with it (like in bruce almighty), but it is given to us by God according to His sovereignty. I'm having trouble explaining what i mean, so hopefully that makes sense. I absolutely agree with scripture, even the verses you quoted. You're just misunderstanding what i meant by it. As for the tab of David. I may be wrong on my OT history, but didnt David design the temple, and Solomon merely built it? (check out 1 chron 22-29, ezra 3:10, etc) Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are talking about when referring to the end-time temple. But make no mistake, the ACTUAL temple will LITERALLY be rebuilt and Antichrist will stand at the PHYSICAL temple to declare that "he is god" and commit the abomination of desolation, Per Daniel 9:27, Matt 24:15, and Mark 13:14. Also check out revelation 11 where they actually MEASURE the temple... come on now! The bible makes it clear that the Temple is very literal. I may be rusty on my OT history, but i'm definitely not rusty on escatology.... ps. per revelation 14, GOD and His angels do the harvesting of souls, NOT us. Like i said ya'll give us humans way too much credit when its not at all about us. Its all HIM. Its always been Him. Though He has chosen us, He doesnt need us at all. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
btw, mcm is right, you can't say "well im pretty sure this guy said that the other guy said he experienced it." I dont see any transformed muslims through signs and wonders. Only the gospel, which is more than enough. If i never see a single sign, wonder, or miricle in my life (even tho I have already) I will still love, serve, and believe Jesus with all that is within me. Why? Because, just as it was said to Paul, God's grace is sufficient for me. With or without signs and wonders. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2084 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: No, I don't believe ANYTHING, but I do believe most things. That is what love does according to 1 Cor. 13, i.e. give the benefit of the doubt. I do believe in "evidence," just not the way we understand that term in a court of law. I heard a testimony, and that is sufficient for me because it came from a reputable souce. That's all. The person who shared that testimony (Rev. Mike Keyes) will minister in our church sometime next year (2008). When he's there, I'll ask him. Will that satisfy you, mcmstaff??? Exihoper: I agree that we do not possess God's power and authority to ourselves, to do with it whatever we want. However, I do NOT believe that God sovereignly distributes it where we need it one minute and NOT the next minute. That is the way things happened in the OT, exihoper, where God's power would be sovereignly bestowed on His servant, and then it would be removed. No, exihoper, God now gives His power to us at the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and it permanently comes and fills us --- and so if you have the Holy Spirit, then God's power is in you to OBEY GOD, and to kick sin and sickness, etc. out of your life. It does not come and go, it is always there and available as a gift. And because it is a gift, God does not just give it and then remove it from you. That would be UNLOVING. He gives it to you permanently, because the gifts of God are irrevocable, according to the Scriptures. You're right that the temple will be re-built. I absolutely agree on that point. But I do not believe the "tabernacle of David" is in reference to that. Instead, I believe that the "tabernacle of David" is a pattern for praise and worship that David established, for God to come dwell in, and THAT is what Amos 9 and Acts refers to. Make sense now - ??? As for Rev. 14, I believe that the "harvest" you refer to is the resurrection of the unjust unto eternal punishment. That is what I see depicted there, not the harvest of souls unto the Lord, which is still being ingathered, and will have been consummated by the time the events of Rev. 14 occurs. Make sense??? | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
on the harvest, that's what i thought you meant. my mistake. on the tabernacle, i did misunderstand you. I'll look into those scriptures. on God's power. Thats actually what i mean. just having a hard time explaining it. So we agree on that as well. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2085 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: Cool, I'm glad we're getting over our terminology differences. I think one of the problems with charismatics (be it in IHOP or WOF or other circles) is that we use lingo and terms and get caught up in the definitions, and then those from outside our circle easily misunderstand. So, I apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding. But I'm glad we are agreeing with one another about these issues. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Mostly... and i am too. its rare to have good conversation when you dont see eye-to-eye | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2086 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: Cool. Thanks for a fine chat. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 645 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
Good discussion fellows. I may not fully agree with any one point of view here, but I have to agree that it went pretty well for a factnet discussion. JBK, I think you did a real good job explaining your views here and I found it interesting. Over all, I don't think (my opinion, that's all) everything ex said to indicate Bickle's group is a cult proves they are a cult, but I do see a lot of similarities in the kind of abuse being referred to here and the type found in EN. Regardless, you (exihop) really go the extra mile to prove your case with concrete examples and fairly clear opinions. Very informative for me, one who believes in the prophetic and am very dissappointed that many of these "prophets" have stumbled and misused their gift. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1723 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
JBK - a source is only "reputable" based on past experience of legitimacy and accuracy. You don't have any way to judge either. With absolutely no details and just the assertion that "I heard from this guy who heard it from that guy" - that's just crazy. I don't believe one word of it because, based on my experience on the lack of veracity of WoF preachers in the pulpit. No one corroborates, no one substantiates, no one ever finds a true source. They just keep repeating what they hear someone else say and make a total mockery of themselves (and, unfortunately, everyone else who term themselves Christians). What will satisfy me is getting the details of the story (who, what, when and where) and someone who can independently corroborate it. Shoot, just corroboration that someone is truly preaching openly something other than Islam in a Muslim country would be great. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2087 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: I need to clarify something with you. This is in response to something you posted over on your own board, but since I cannot post this clarification, I will post it here. I heard the story about Muslim converts from my pastor, and he heard it from Rev. Mike Keyes, who experienced it first-hand, and so there is no third pastor who was involved --- just my pastor hearing it from Mike Keyes, and then my pastor telling me. The reason why these sources are "reputable" are because I trust my pastor to give me truthful information, and Mike Keyes is likewise trustworthy, i.e. because my pastor trusts Rev. Keyes, so should I. Rev. Mike Keyes will be in town sometime next year. If you're still interested, I'll ask him about this personally myself. I hope that will satisfy you. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1724 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
You are the third person.  Also, your "trust" is irrelevant to the veracity of the assertion. You are conveying something third hand for which I have no reason to put any stock in. If your pastor told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it? I wrote what would satisfy me. Mike Keyes making another unsubstantiated assertion with no corroboration would not. After seeing his web site, anyone who terms himself an "apostle" has absolutely no credibility with me. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2088 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff: So, does that make me a preacher??? Just kidding, If my pastor told me to jump off a cliff, no, of course I would not do it, because such an action would not line up with the Scriptures. However, this testimony of Muslim conversions DOES line up with the Scriptures. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 652 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
I think you're both correct to an extent. Keyes claims are, on the surface, no different than most other's claims. Unsubstantiated. I hear so many great testimonies and claims for healings and salvation that not only are unproven, but by this point would have probably numerically saved every person in the world about 3 or 4 times. The claims and numbers don't add up, and the proof isn't there. I don't believe the Bible says have faith in the evangelist, or the prophet, or the apostle. My faith is in Christ and the Word and I don't believe what someone claims, no matter how trustworthy I or my pastor says they are, just because they said it. Experience and the facts have proven to me that there are to many evangelAstic claims made. On the other hand, IF Keyes or anyone else is actually preaching the gospel in a muslim country or anywhere for that matter, it stands to reason that people will be saved. That's why it's preached. If it didn't produce some salvations, why bother preaching. I also chuckle at claims made to be an apostle or prophet in many cases, but that doesn't negate the effectiveness of the word. It will produce when it is preached. The numbers may be exagerrated like usual, but I believe preaching the gospel leads to salvation wherever it is preached, particularly to those whom God has called and prepared to receive it at that time. Hopefully, they are really preaching the "gospel" and not something else. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2089 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
mcmstaff and xman3: By the way, this testimony wasn't shared with me through the pulpit. It was shared with a few people who were present at last Monday night's weekly prayer meeting. The point of the testimony that my pastor was making was that we do not have to persuade others to agree with us on doctrinal matters in order for them to be coverted. Rather, the raw preaching of the Word of God, with signs and wonders that follow, is effective to win souls. Amen? | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 653 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.193.3 |
I can agree with you there JBK. I just have lots of reason to question the veracity of the claims of signs and wonders, particularly without proof, but I personally agree with you that the preaching of the gospel will be effective to win souls. Signs and wonders, in my view of scripture, ought to follow the preaching of the word, but is that really happening? I honestly don't know. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1726 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
But claims piled upon claims with no corroboration simply engenders cynicism and, ultimately, unbelief. Of course, to win people to the Gospel one must actually preach the Gospel, which I do not believe WoF does. | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I'm glad you mentioned the fasting issue, I thought Misty Edwards was anorexic. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Well, Misty is abnormally skinny. While she does fast an almost obscene amount for any normal human being, she also had cancer and almost died. Thus is also why she looks like she's in her late 30's when she is only 25. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2105 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.13 |
Exihoper: Really? That just totally surprises me. I have one of Misty's CDs, but she's not really my type (of music). Its good, but too mystical for what I typically enjoy for private devotional worship, etc. And, I would NOT say she looks like she is in her late 30s. I thought she was a little older than she is --- like 28 or 29, 3 or 4 years older than she actually is. But hey, people think the same about me. People guess I am 30-35 years old, and I am only 27. Some people just are more mature-looking than their age. | ||
| exihoper Intermediate Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 101 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Well, no. Misty looks WAY older in person. Honestly, I'm not trying to be mean or overexxagerating... to me, she looks like she is very sick or could fall over at any moment. She always wears a large amount of makeup before going on camera, but even with all the caked on makeup, her face is very very worn. Its sad. | ||
| sadmom New member Username: sadmom Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 166.128.207.245 |
I appreciate this post so much. I have a family member in IHOP who has cut off all communication and has determined after receiving "older and wiser counsel" that I'm ungodly and he needs at least one YEAR of TOTAL separation. Thank you, IHOP. What a difference you've made in my life.. |
