Can a "ideal" community exist?

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Author Message   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 203 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:15 pm:        What would a "good" community look like? What size would it be? Would it be common purse or a variation of it? Would there be shared meals? (I would hope so! and of course there's always "salvation station"!) Would it be secular or non-secular, or a combination of the two? Would there be a common spiritual path? What would the direction of that path be? Who would determine that direction? Would there be a goal or purpose other then living a wholesome, Godly life? What would the government look like? How would that government be formed and function? Lastly and most importantly, can it be done without the pride of men, the "leaven of the pharisees" coming in and puffing up the whole loaf, and shouting "We are the Way!!!"? On top of that they get so large that they lose their "intimacy", their "first love", and in order to logistically function they become a sterile, institutionalized business. Sad but true.... (This has happened in so many "Christian Communities" were they start out as people simply loving and living for each other. I have personally lived in 3 different ones who have done so... *note! One thing the Twelve Tribes do try and stick to is not getting to large but their businesses have gotten huge and they try to split the work areas around. I said "They try...". I remember Yoneq saying over 50 or 60 in one community was was too much and wanted to stick to "cottage industries" and not the huge global ones they have now. Its sad that they are the "proudest" of the bunch) The Twelve Tribes http://directory.ic.org/records/?action=view&page=view&record_id=5932 , Rose Creek Village http://rosecreekvillage.com/ and Shepherdsfield. Mo. http://directory.ic.org/records/?action=view&page=view&record_id=1061)   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:58 pm:        I have already tried writing this same exercise for my own benefit. I hope this doesn't need to be 100 words or less. It took me nearly 200 pages.   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 10:11 pm:        I also would add a few more questions: Who would be eligible for "membership"? How would someone be invited or "uninvited" to stay or be a "member"? How would you finds new members or would you depend on them finding you? What would the "role" of women be in the community (and would they have an equal voice (in some communities they do not)? How would the children be educated? NOTE: These are a few questions I also tried to outline. The reason I did a similar exercise is I wanted to, before visiting the first community see what I would expect from a community if I ever joined. Amazing how some of the important point I was looking for were actually very well addressed in The Twelve Tribes. Some were different than what I would have suggested. that doesn't mean they were wrong or I was. they were just different. They have much more experience in community living than I do so some of our differences may cone from their experiences. I also did this when we began to have non-immediate family members stay at our farm. It was a way for me to determine direction we were going in and be as objective as I could as to how people were treated around us.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 204 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 12:35 am:        I would love to read your study on this...All 200 pages! Do you have it compiled? Can you email it to me or post it somewhere where I could read it?   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 3:03 am:        Let me first say that this in no way is my opinion of Twelve Tribes and should not be construed as an attack on them. I have looked at several comminities and their structure in researching this subject. It is my opinion from what I have seen so far that the Twelve Tribes is actually better than any others I have seen so far. I have never published my study online so far. I might consider doing that. Here is a synopsis of some of what I found. Others experiences may vary. ************************************ Synopsis My concept of what I would consider an "ideal" community would be Faith-based, democratic group where an equal voice was enjoyed by all of an age to make such decisions. As soon as you say Faith based, a problem arises over "whose Faith" and how do you measure the Faith of others without pride entering in where one feels like they are more "Holy" than another. As soon as someone considers themselves a "Prophet" then human nature of some will cause man to sometimes start "following a man" instead of God. That has happened in many communities. Just look all over the world and these are easy to find. Setting up a "government" is difficult without envy setting in. Do you give each individual an equal vote? that would often mean that a couple would possibly have more voice together than a single person. Another possible flaw. If you give each "family" a vote, what happens if husband and wife do not agree? The best systems I have seen is letting an elected group of "elders" make the day-to-day decisions and the major decisions be made by discussion and vote. Shared purse is an ideal concept and can work well if it is consistant. In many communities I have seen "share-purse" only seemed to apply to most of the members, but the "leaders" would often give themselves more. In these cases, there seemed to be a lack of accoutability concerning what assets were in the community. The best plan I have seen is where meals and everything is shared but a small "allocation" is given each individual to purchase items they may need beyond the basics. Food, housing, medical, etc. is shared. One of the most difficult aspects of community living I have seen is when it comes to "dating or marriage". Do people have a free will to marry whomever they wish or do they have to have the leaders permission? If you have no restriction, in some communities there is confusion and jealousy and hurt feelings. If one has to "get approval" then an issue of undo control can be argued. I have seen good and bad relationships in both of these methods. +++++++++++++++ to be continued   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 3:08 am:        added note++++ My niece told me she thinks the only way I would be completely satisfied with all aspects of a community would be to form one myself. My reply was the old line "I would never want for a wife anyone with such poor taste as to want me for a husband".   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.245.165.189 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 1:29 pm:        without a doubt those in the twelve tribes have more faith in god than anyone i have ever met... they truely are a model for all to follow... they live the word and witness it to all...   fatherofaking Intermediate Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 267 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.159.145 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 2:03 pm:        what i saw while living as a baptized member was that not everyone was so happy, nor were they all so spiritual. living in that environment was good for the young children but as they got older it became increasing difficult for them. i watched several families over the 30yrs i had contact with them. i can assure you that not all is as it seems on the outside. i watched many families get torn apart. including families that had been there for 25yrs. one community nearly imploded. it got so bad that nearly the entire leadership was replaced. what i can tell you is this. i think it is possible for a few to find happiness in an environment like that for all sorts of reasons. just do not go there thinking it is the only way you can find happiness.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 205 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 3:48 pm:        Randy, I believe Groucho Marx coined that phrase in his autobiography: I sent the club a wire stating, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER". Telegram to the Friar's Club of Beverley Hills to which he belonged, as recounted in Groucho and Me (1959), p. 321 Believe it or not I used that phrase in a "minchat" while in the TT describing the "spirit of worthlessness"! I believe that the TT are right on the money when they teach that pride and worthlessness are two faces of the same coin or rather spirit. Kind of like "Janus". But they have named this spirit as "Belial". You can see were pride of possessions and status can be spawned by worthlessness instead of getting your worth from how you live your life, regardless of intellect, income or station.   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.245.101.57 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 5:18 pm:        all apart of the testing that is required to bring his kingdom about... those who overcome are His... those who have overcome are still serving and it is they who are the light to others... to them is the foundation that many are going to continue to build on... what is not in Him will crumble... a clan , family or person... it will fall away and the faithful shall remain... Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 206 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 6:02 pm:        Randy " As soon as you say Faith based, a problem arises over "whose Faith" and how do you measure the Faith of others without pride entering in where one feels like they are more "Holy" than another." Whereto2 "those in the twelve tribes have more faith in god than anyone i have ever met" How does one measure faith? All of the ex-TT members had or still have the same amount of faith as those who remain in the Tribes! We ALL had the faith to give up our lives to God and trust in Him and that His will would be communicated to us through the "anointing" which is to say the elders, our "coverings" and the teachings and directions of "Yoneq". But for some of us it became too apparent that what was being said, done and not done could not have come from a God of love! But then of course the accusations of rebellion and not being submissive to your brothers and questioning the anointing or Gods "portion" for you would fly! The sad thing is that the TT hardly ever admits their wrongs and if they do there is no apology behind it. The old "catch 22" they love to use is "it is better to be wrong together then right alone". It's not that we had a lack of faith in God! It was our lack of faith in men! Hey FOAK! Good to see you! And yes, there are many there that love that authoritarian lifestyle. I did myself for awhile! Must have been my military upbringing... Your food, clothing and shelter were always provided for you... and us guys didnt have to cook either unless of course it was your "breakfast morning" You didnt have to make a single decision! Absolutely none! They were all made for you! You had no accountability if you were "covered" and obeyed all of your "coverings" directions! You became a non-person! "Just another brick in the wall"! You had to watch your speech very carefully also! No slang, jargon or hometown colloquialisms. And God forbid you bring in a "strange fire" into the "inner courts"! You were to lose own identity, your own "flavor" and "leave it outside the gate" as you totally assimilated their new culture. Their diet, dress, hair style, language...everything. A automaton if you will... But on the other hand there is a lot of wisdom in the functioning and teachings of the Tribes. As you said Randy, they have had over 30 years of experience and most groups would have folded after the second generation. But there are faults too...and the biggest one of those is pride and the claim of exclusivity with God and the Holy Spirit. I tried to go back several years ago and I repented on my knees in tears to no avail. It was not enough for them. I feel that the all of the Twelve Tribes elders and Yoneq himself and Ha'emeq also should be the ones to be On their knees repenting in tears mostly to God but also to all of the men, women, husbands, wives, children and families that they have hurt, damaged and torn apart in their prideful ways!!!!! (Message edited by nabashalam on August 30, 2007)   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 207 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 6:05 pm:        Thanks whereto2!!! Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy. Thats what I'm talking about!!! (Message edited by nabashalam on August 30, 2007)   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.244.45.169 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 6:30 pm:        i have not met a single ex-member who is even remotely like anyone i have met in the tribes... ESPECIALLY the people i see that come to this board... i dont see anything 'sad' about the tribes... i do see such in the ex-memebers... they all repeat and repeat the same thing which ultimately points to their own inability to overcome everything they are constantly repeating... like fools... repeating themselves over and over... claiming the twelve tribes is pridefull and not being able to see their own pride which puts them where they are now... claiming families are torn apart when it is they who have torn apart families... that is the sad thing... the mear fact you are repeating over and over just shows what you can not overcome... while those still serving in the twelve tribes are overcoming such and are strengthening their bonds and increasing their light to the world... one thing i can agree with is - i too would not want to be a member of any group that would have any of the ex-members here as a member...   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 6:45 pm:        Whereto2-- I find it mildly humorous that you say the exmember (one of which I am not) are like fools for repeating themselves over and over. Please note your post: "they all repeat and repeat the same thing " "they are constantly repeating... like fools... repeating themselves over and over" "the mear fact you are repeating over and over just shows what you can not overcome"   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 208 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:02 pm:        whereto2, As Randy said before, If you are anything like those who are in the Tribes then he would want no part of them. Sad thing is, your pride is a perfect example! "I too would not want to be a member of any group that would have any of the ex-members here as a member..." Yahshua told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves and were confident that they were righteous and that they were upright and in right standing with God and scorned and made nothing of all the rest of men: Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee took his stand ostentatiously and began to pray thus before and with himself "God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of men--extortioners, robbers, swindlers, unrighteous in heart and life, adulterers--or even like this tax collector here. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I gain." But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but kept striking his breast, saying "Oh God, be favorable, be gracious, be merciful to me, the especially wicked sinner that I am!" "I tell you, this man went down to his home justified, forgiven and made upright and in right standing with God, rather than the other man; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."   anon_e_mus Junior Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.188.35.164 Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:57 pm:        good topic, dave... I'm going to look at it more in depth when I have the time.   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 2:56 am:        I have noticed in the concept of Faith-based community, someone has to begin by basing the original concept on his or her belief. It would be difficult for faith-based to be determined by committee without a series of compromises. It seems in nearly every community I have examined, one person emerges as the "Prophet" and believers are drawn in who are willing to accept and follow the teachings of the Prophet. The teachings of the Prophet becomes the common thread and ruler for whether someone may gain acceptance. The danger I see in this is that sometimes the Prophet either elevates himself or is elevated in the eyes of the members to theplace where it would take a fully humble man to keep from having pride be the downfall. Look at some of the communities that have been formed where conflict takes over either by pride of the leaders or some jockeying for position of importance. Unfortunately as long as humans are part of a group, these failings can take place whether it is in a community or a church. If a community is set up that isn't Faith-based, then new rules are needed for there to be harmony. these rules would be based on interpretation of "moral value". This could be more easily determined than based on beliefs. Usually there becomes another goal or common thread for the community whether that be enviromentalists or joined by race or some other common thread. My conclusion is that it may be difficult to keep a group or community together if there isn't a common thread of some sort.   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 3:18 am:        I have noticed in a community there are those who join because they believe and others who say they believe or convince themselves to believe in order to join. The latter usually is because of loneliness, fear, or a strong desire to belong somewhere. Unfortunately those that accept belief to join are usually the ones who later leave when it becomes too hard or something better comes along. I am convinced that the Twelve Tribes would probably not have grown. prosperedor lasted 3 decades unless the members were willing to accept the teachings of Yoneq abd other leaders and accepted the belief that they were the Chosen. Nothing else would have been able to keep them together and attracted new converts. Nothing else but their Faith would have kept them together for 3 decades. To answer one of your questions David, if not Faith Based, another common goal of reward or a better life would have to be present for a community to survive and not disintigrate by attrition.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 213 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 3:19 am:        Your up late Randy! I agree 100% with your above post... Why couldnt that common thread be plain old LOVE??? and a version of Humanism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 214 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 3:38 am:        Randy, I believe fear and guilt has played a large part in their staying together for so long. Talk to those who spent decades there before finally finding the courage, yes courage to leave... You are threatened with eternal damnation if you leave. How many other "Churches" or intentional communities hold that over your head? And if you have truly believed and have bought into all their teachings then they have successfully built a locked cage around your whole being! Mind, body and soul! A cloud of fear and guilt that plagues you if you even think a critical thought! Randy, that is the mortar that holds them together! Fear and guilt! And its their love that is their only balm for the pain brought on by this mind control!   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 12:57 pm:        Interesting discussion. Scott Peck makes some very interesting observations about community in A Different Drum. Basically, it is our beliefs that keep us from true community - the type of community that brings people to true intamacy. It is our beliefs, rooted in our insecurities, that cause us to organize and institutionalize, rather than embrace our diversity in love and acceptance. He says that in order to come to true community we must first embrace the emptiness and pain that exsists in our differences. It is then that we can allow God to bring us together at a heart level. This idea seems to be consitent with the ideas of surrender and trust - also with human respect and dignity. It also rings true of my experience. I think it is human insecurities, and not embracing that pain, that feeds all of our control issues. I kow this can create a dilemma, but also that it has something to do with the inherrent problems in establishing community. There does need to be a common thread but, just as important, each persons perspetive needs to be honored. There must be freedom to be real in order to change (Message edited by intransition on September 01, 2007)   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 216 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 2:08 pm:        "We must first embrace the emptiness and pain that exists in our differences. It is then that we can allow God to bring us together at a heart level." And God is LOVE!!! " There must be freedom to be real in order to change " Freedom of the cross!!??   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 4:49 pm:        Good points, Intransition.   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.245.105.51 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 5:24 pm:        then scott peck should be witnessing this to the world... he is just another john lennon saying 'imagine' but not actually living it out himself... everyone can sit around here and contemplate community... meanwhile the twelve tribes are gathering and living it out each day... and while you all here sit and talk about it they are actually living it... just goto their FAQ... they have pretty much covered every question their by now... they are the ones getting the questions for the last 35 years... http://www.commonwealthofisrael.org/faq/ while ex-members here will twist the views of the tribes to their own liking to justify their own selfish reasons for leaving or being cast out for life... here is the actual truth... quoted from their website... 'We stay together because of the power of our Master Yahshua's sacrifice. His death in our place makes it possible for each of us to be forgiven and to forgive others. And so the things that usually alienate people from one another don't have to divide us. Because our Master saved us from a life of alienation, loneliness, and sin, we love Him and want to do His will. We express our devotion to Him by submitting to each other. That mutual respect and affection makes unity possible. Our desire is to follow Him, be like Him, and give all that we have to bringing about His purpose. This is our common goal, and love compels us to make sure our fellow disciples have the encouragement they need to make it.' or I suppose you can try to be like scott peck or john lennon instead what is clear is the ex-members here are no longer trying to be like Yahshua... and the ones that are here that have never been members are'nt either... what it comes down to is all of us are living for the good of ourselves no matter how you look at it... and that does not fly in the commonwealth... never will... its rooted out and cast out for good...   randyspenser New member Username: randyspenser Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 6:00 pm:        I repeat. Whereto2-- "Amazing how some of the important point I was looking for were actually very well addressed in The Twelve Tribes. Some were different than what I would have suggested. that doesn't mean they were wrong or I was. They were just different. They have much more experience in community living than I do so some of our differences may come from their experience." I think that statement in my first post on here does show respect for them and openness to say they have much more experience living community than I. Nothing derogatory in this.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 217 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 7:50 pm:        Life in the TT is full of "alienation, loneliness, and sin"! If you try and make real friends you are accused of being "overfamiliar"! You also dont dare tell even your closest friend what your true "inner workings" are in fear of being "tattled" on and then your called on the carpet for questioning Gods direction! "We express our devotion to Him by" unquestioning submission to your coverings, the elders and government. "We express our devotion to Him by submitting to each other. That mutual respect and affection( but mostly fear of reprisal) makes unity possible. So they are trying to be like Yahshua when all government meetings are behind closed doors and what goes on in those meetings stays in those meetings? Did you know they have a special secret publication they put out to just the Governments of the tribes? Oh yes!!! No freedom of information act there! No no no! Yahshua:"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." "its rooted out and cast out for good..." FYI I was NEVER cast out! The only reason I am not allowed to come back is that I befriended Bob Pardon and that I lost my fear of the Tribes and their power of fear and eternal condemnation they held over me. I finally came to the conclusion, without any doubt, that they were not who they claimed to be which in turn gave me the courage to speak the truth that I had held back for so long. There have been more wonderful people, some of whom were there for 5, 10 and 20 or more years who have LEFT AND NOT BEEN CAST OUT because there WAS alienation, loneliness, and sin and an extreme lack of compassion and love. People there are so harried with the oppressive yolk of work, protein starved diets, lack of sleep and genuine fellowship that they have nothing left to give others. Do you know what most disciples do if they dont have other chores or requirements on the Sabbath? If they have the luxury of no obligations or children to tend to...THEY GO TO THE MORNING GATHERING THEN THEY SLEEP FROM SUN UP (they skip lunch)TO SUN DOWN!!!!   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 218 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 8:15 pm:        Whereto2, Its very apparent that you have attempted to de-rail this thread that was actually being constructive and gaining momentum. Nice try! In the Tribes they would call you a "destroyer"! We all here still cant figure out why your not on your way to the Tribes! BTW, throw your computer out the window when you go! At least here you can actually voice your opinion. You might get some strong feedback but you wont be "cut off", "sent away" or condemned to the "Lake of Fire" for eternity! I have had more and better fellowship here and made better friends here then I ever did in the Tribes! And this isnt even even face to face! Im a way much nicer guy in person! Seriously, I get cyberbluntness and lose sensitivity, consideration, tact, respectfulness and diplomacy here. This I apologise for and truly want to meet everyone here at the "FIRST ANNUAL FACTNET GATHERING" and let people meet the actual big old teddy bear that I am....   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 10:21 pm:        Whereto2, Everyone on here has a purpose for being here. Ex-members are seeking answers or maybe warning others of what they percieve as problems with the Twelve Tribes. Some of us who have never been members are asking questions and want not only what people from the TT have to say, but also want to hear from people who actually lived there. (Getting both sides before we decide.) I don't mean to sound rude, but would you be willing to share your purpose of being on here if you are not a member or an ex-member or needing information about teachings and beliefs (you seem extremely knowledgable about their teachings). It may help us understand you better and appreciate where your viewpoint comes from. I am asking this not being critical, just to understand so I will never unfairly judge your comments.   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 10:31 pm:        Whereto2, Is it your view that noone can be saved unless they give up all and become one of the chosen in the community? In what way do you believe one can be led to the truth. We are human with varying degree of "garbage and baggage" that have controlled our lives. How do we break from this. What caused you to make the decision that the teachings and life of the Twelve Tribe was the right way and cause you to want to give up all for this purpose? You are much more knowledgable than I of their teachings as I have only begun to study from their site. Your help and knowledge could be of benefit. I'm sorry if I am a very cautious person who takes their time and wants to be sure of what I commit to. (Message edited by unknownunsure on September 01, 2007)   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.244.188.40 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 12:53 am:        hard for me to ever believe the word of someone cast out of the tribes... (that means not aloud to return - EVER)... especially when everything i witnessed was exactly the opposite off what i read here... if people left then good... the tribes are better of without the types of attitude i run across here... that is for sure... some here will say they escaped the guilt and fear and reprisal of the tribes... but you just avoided what you still have not been able to face and overcome about yourself... its easy to see why those cast out never established any real friendships their... they were too busy hiding their own sin... and we know from proverbs you simply wont prosper in that situation... its always easy to speak about what you see around you... but ultimately you can only speak for yourself... when one sais that those around them are aliented , lacking compassion and having nothing left to give to anyone it can only reflect on themselves... as much as someone may try to disguise all the wrong by pointing the finger toward everyone else... all they are doing is revealing themselves as exactly what they claim everyone else around them to be...   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 219 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 2:05 am:        You write and spell way to much like someone who has lived in the Tribes for a long time not to be such a person. You either were in for a length of time and left or are still in... PERIOD!   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.244.188.40 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 2:39 am:        i was neither in for a long time... nor am i in now... this is a good example of the character of ex-members... and the pride they have... quick to point at everything wrong around them without seeing it is in fact themselves that have much to overcome... the exact type of person that will never prosper in the twelve tribes... this ex-members judgement of me could not be further from the actual truth... just goes to show you exactly what you are dealing with here... you dont like my posting style ? i dont care... this is not english class... this a forum and at 120 words a minute... im not here to display a composition... nor do i think punctuation or capitalization are important in this setting... i type what i think, not what you think i should type... you want a well written composition - goto the library...   sabbathkeeper Junior Member Username: sabbathkeeper Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.24.145.153 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 6:06 am:        Be still and know that I AM   truth_seeker Junior Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 9:53 am:        whereto, I challenge you to answer unknownunsure, rather than wasting your time arguing with exmembers. Really, what is the point? What is your point? Tell us by answering unknownunsure! Everyone here has a story to tell, tell more of your own, please. I know you have good things to say...   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 220 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 11:02 am:        "i type what i think, not what you think i should type." And you have every right to!!! That's why, my friend, you will never make it in the Tribes!   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 12:28 pm:        Whereto2, I promise you I am not trying to set you up with my questions to you. My uncle talked to my cousins and I about you and others on here. After much prayer and self-examination, I feel he is right that everyone here are going through searches in their lives and we cannot assume anything about what others are thinking. We must pray for all on here that they will be directed according to God's Will for their lives. (Message edited by unknownunsure on September 02, 2007)   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 12:53 pm:        Whereto2 - are you reading what you write? You are doing exactly what you are accusing others of. It seems you are speaking out of your own guilt and frustration from not doing what is in your heart to do. You say those that frequent this board will never be in the TT - are you afraid that includes you? Or are you someone that just comes to forums to mess with people (I think it is called a troll?) If you are for real, please stop with the judgement and have an intellegent conversation. Many of us are not anti-TT. We just have unanswered questions.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 221 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 8:20 pm:        unknownunsure, Please allow me to participate in your prayer and also be a recipient from it... God bless us all...   fatherofaking Intermediate Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 288 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.159.145 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 8:33 pm:        Pray as if everything depended upon God and work as if everything depended upon man. Francis Cardinal Spellman US cardinal 1946 (1889 - 1967)   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 10:37 pm:        In our family devotion tonight, we went through all of the people who have been on this site recentlyband prayed for them one by one. My uncle told us a few days ago we should constantly keep in mind we are talking with people with needs and should pray for them daily. I don't know if it is doing any of y'all any good but it is making me feel wonderful.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:57 pm:        The power of prayer should never be underestimated. Thank you for yours   sabbathkeeper Junior Member Username: sabbathkeeper Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.24.176.61 Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:18 pm:        Shalom, OK folks, I've tried to post this reponse twice, once the "ghost in the machine" came up and then last night some pop ups kicked me off! So here goes! I honestly don't believe a "ideal community" would not work out at this time and I really don't know why!!! I think what is most important is that we raise our children to love the Almighty with our/their whole heart,soul and mind and our neighbors as ourselves!! AND seeds of the desire for closer relationships with each other and others(community?). I also think that the only question to honestly ask ourselves about the TT is...drum roll please are the TT the "only ones"? This is final question that Ya'acov in Brunswick had me think over! I honestly and sincerely think they are not the only ones! There are some within their community that I would not question their sincereity but they question mine which is sad! Shalom! Thomas   sabbathkeeper Junior Member Username: sabbathkeeper Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.24.176.61 Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:32 pm:        Oh Boy! Excuse the grammer! And the double negitive ! I do not think a ideal community would work at this time! Of coarse there are those at the TT, Rose Creek, People of the Living G-d and others that would say they are living proof other wise! May Yahweh bless them all and guide them to Truth and Light!! TQ   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 222 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:18 pm:        Hmmmm... So if there were an ideal community, would it have to be Judeo-Christian??????   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:31 pm:        What would be the purpose and the goal? Just to live together in harmony? Or to bring about a certain purpose.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 223 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 11:19 pm:        Thats exactly what I asked when I started this thread 45 posts ago!!!   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:45 am:        Do you think ome would work based on economic need as in taking in homeless that woulld have to work and follow not necessarily Biblical guidelibes but rules such as no drugs, dinking etc.?   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:48 am:        A study in the Scriptures could be optional. This way people could be shown The Father's love by example. How do you think that would work?   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:40 am:        I think what foak said earlier in his post is true. Not all in the tribes are happy and there is a problem with the children as they get older. When things are good they are very good and when things are bad it can be pretty bad. So what causes the unhappiness and the bumpy road for the children.   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:32 am:        lets_be_real, What do you think? How long did you live in the twelve tribes, or are you still serving with them? It is an interesting question you have posed, because it runs across the board, I think we see unhappiness and problemed teenagers in most societies today.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:46 am:        I was there long enough and hope to someday return. Rather then ask the question of ideal community.Depending on what your faith is I believe the Tribes are on the right path. But in my opinion things do need to be tweaked here and there. I continually pray for them and myself. We can't live by principle We have to be willing to reach the heart and invest in relationships. Nothing can be just cut and dry.Sometimes things go so fast that we lose that connection and lose sight of one another.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 224 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:11 pm:        Unknownunsure, "Do you think one would work based on economic need as in taking in homeless that would have to work and follow not necessarily Biblical guidelines but rules such as no drugs, dinking etc.?" Absolutely!!! The "Golden Rule" should cover most of it! (which is, by the way, the "new commandment" Yahshua spoke that actually wasnt a new one but all of them put in one basket!) http://www.christianhumanism.bravehost.com/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Naturalism "A study in the Scriptures could be optional. This way people could be shown The Father's love by example. How do you think that would work? I think to witness the Gospel being walked out instead of preached is far more powerful. "Spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth! and if else fails...use words!!!!" But once that word is in you and you pay close attention to the "NOW", live in the moment, the word never fails to remind you that its in there. Now that is my description of "The Living Word". Just remember that "word" is love and forgiveness and not fear and condemnation. So yes! Scripture study optional, love in action mandatory...   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 225 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:51 pm:        lets_be_real, "We can't live by principle We have to be willing to reach the heart and invest in relationships." This is what life is for! Unfortunately in the Tribes, the principles trump the hearts need for relationships. As I said earlier, in the Tribes, after the day is done, you have nothing left to invest!!! Seriously! If you were lucky enough to actually make a true confidant in the tribes, you had to keep it low profile when amongst the "authorities". Even if you shared something with your spouse that you didnt want to be common knowledge you had better trust your wife to not tell her "confidant" IF she had one...or it might get back to the wrong people! FEAR FEAR FEAR!!! Hell! Couples displays of affection for each other where stifled because of fear of reprimand! LOVE IS STIFLED, SMOTHERED, EVEN STRANGLED IN THE TRIBES! BETWEEN FRIENDS, COUPLES AND EVEN THE CHILDREN!   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 1:26 pm:        What I think I am hearing from ex-members is that the same problems, or sins, which plague our world, exist within the community, which would lead one to believe the answer to the question that started this thread would be, no, an "ideal" community cannot exist, unless sin can truly be overcome. The ultimate question for me has always been, can Yahshua really save people? I mean, REALLY save people from their sins and death, which could be witnessed by a people living together in love and unity.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 226 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:13 pm:        Yahshua or not....PEOPLE WILL SIN AND FALL SHORT OF PERFECTION! Do you actually think that Yahshua was sinless? No thoughts for self? No anger? No human lusts of any kind? If this was so...then he was not human! "One can not help if a bird flies over ones head, but they can stop it from building a nest in their hair!" Saving someone from their sins does not mean make them sinless!!! Its forgiving them! Now thats DIVINE!!!   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 227 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:16 pm:        Now heres a good question... Does unity = conformity ?   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 4:28 pm:        "Saving someone from their sins does not mean make them sinless!!! Its forgiving them! Now thats DIVINE!!!" Is that what the twelve tribes believe? I don't understand this concept. Do you forgive a pedophile in community without hope that they will not sin again? Or out of divinity do you forgive them over and over again? Yahshua told the woman he forgave to go and sin no more. Do you think he was just making a suggestion?   whereto2 New member Username: whereto2 Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 68.245.87.117 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 4:54 pm:        I saw exactly the opposite... I saw love flourishing in the twelve tribes... and on a level that I have never witnessed anywhere else... Especially for the children... they were the greatest witness of love... I also witnessed husbands and wives being affectionate toward one another... It was very refreshing... I saw the closest of friends in the tribes... I in fact made a few myself... One of whom I enjoy conversation with till this day... I also witnessed forgiveness and repentence at work...   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 228 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:32 pm:        TS!!! You dont understand this concept??? What about forgiving your brother 7x70 ???? Was THAT a suggestion??? But that doesnt mean they go unpunished or there are no earthly consequences! Wheretwo2, I lived in 6 different communities and spent time in 6 others and if what you say is true then the Tribes have made a 180 degree turn since I left! I wonder if they would let me come back just to witness this! Now if they could bring themselves to forgiving me....now THAT would be divine! Children were not allowed to play or have friends with other children and parents were NOT to be friends to their children. They were to be PARENTS only!   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:42 pm:        whereto, I can say I saw things much the same way you did in the community. However, how can we know what we experienced is any different than what we could find in other churches, communities, or families all around the world?   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:04 pm:        70x7=490. I thought love kept no record of wrongs.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:08 pm:        Whereto, Your right, the things you witnessed in the community is the norm. Naba I know what communities you lived in, but things are not as bad as you you communicate. You paint a very unfair picture of the community. I'm sure you had your differences and hurts we all did to some extent. But I agree with whereto on this that on the whole there has never been more LOVE Expressed in a people that I have witnessed. Naba I understand I had been in that place of alienation from some but there lives beared the fruit of that and it didn't go unchecked. The sincere far outweigh the unspiritual.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 229 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:10 pm:        TS I thought you didn't understand that concept? Are you being facetious Tom? Lets_be real, then why pray tell why are you not still there? And just how long where you with them? And I'll ask wheretwo2 the same thing everyone else here has asked you. Why arent you there also??? If the Twelve Tribes communities are such wonderful soul saving places to live, why arent you two there?   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 230 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:22 pm:        Lets_be_real "I was there long enough " OK then,be real! Tell the truth! How long was long enough?   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:25 pm:        First off, I want to thank you whereto2 for dropping the judgment. There is a continuum here and in the TT. As letsbereal alluded to, Nab is on the far end of critical (no offense meant Nab) - David Derush is on the far end of apologetic - other of us are in varying places. In the TT, it is also like that. I witnessed much of what you have but also many of the problems. I probably would not say it is the norm like LBR just suggested - although there is much sincerity, I found being real very difficult for many people - and being close requires being real. Truth Seeker is absolutely right that there is the same stuff in the TT as plagues the rest of the world. That is not unreasonable in itself. The problem is that there is not an adequate way to address the problems - creating the same dysfunction you find anywhere where problems exist without dealing with them. I truly hope there would be a change.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:34 pm:        Naba, Bottom line Im not a victim and I'm not pointing a finger. There was a difference of opinion and I needed to make a decision, so I made it.I spent more time in the community then you did. But the truth is the truth. There is more hurt and pain in the world. Truth seeker it's a nice thought, but I don't believe you will find what your looking for in the world, not in the numbers that the Tribes hold. I believe there on the path, not perfect but on the whole sincere.   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:36 pm:        Back to the concept of ideal community, I would agree with several others that "ideal" is probably not possible. I think real is more reachable - perhaps being real is ideal. Now for my soapbox - comunication! communication! communication! It is my experience, not theory, that being real through open communcation is the path to change. It is only in an atmosphere of acceptance and love, free from fear, that relationships (the heart of community) can thrive and grow.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 10:12 pm:        So where does the fear come from? Is it from what Naba said earlier, Pride and worthlessness. Is acceptance ourselves or our ideas. Many of us suffered in feeling we weren't being heard. So then we felt like we didn't matter. The sin of Cain and Able runs rampant in the community. The community prospers in an atmospere of Love where sin is being put to death. This is good that we can talk about these things here.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 231 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 10:42 pm:        Intransition, I agree 100%!(no offense taken!I consider critical thinking a good thing!)After having to verbally "repent" for any thought contrary to the "one mind" for so long, it feels wonderful to have "strong opinions"!!! "It is my experience, not theory, that being real through open communication is the path to change. It is only in an atmosphere of acceptance and love, free from fear, that relationships (the heart of community) can thrive and grow." But as you know this is not practiced in the Tribes and as lets_be_real is a witness to, that difference of opinions are forbidden also! BTW lets_be_real, I have a good idea who you are... Do you really hope to return? What does your wife think about that? Are you sure your not going through the symptoms of the "battered spouse syndrome" ? (brought on from the Tribes, not your spouse!)Can you tell me what changes must take place before you would consider going back, if any? Intransition, do you think it might have been easier for an "elder" to be more open and make closer and more intimate friendships then a "sheep" without the fear of being "over familiar"??? Answer me truthfully, how many close friends did you have in the tribes if any? Were they other elders? Proletariat? And dont count the ones that joined with you!   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 11:13 pm:        All I know about fear is that perfect love is supposed to cast it out. I haven't met anybody, in or out of the TT who doesn't struggle with fear. It is at the core of the human condition. People come to the TT with all kinds of insecurities - deep issues that have kept them in bondage. I am sure it is all related to worthlessness. Instead of healing love that frees them and casts out all fear, the issues are reduced to oversimplified "sin". I personally find things like "the sin of Cain and Able" to put more guilt and fear on someone already bound up. People don't get past worthlessness and depression by calling them to repentance - that just pushes it further into the subconscious. As Nab points out, there are very few with close friends in the TT. It is actually easier to get close with the sheep than the shepherds because the shepherds have a whole other set of stuff that keeps them at a distance from each other. The sheep can be a bit more real.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 232 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 11:46 pm:        Thank you!!!!! I figured you guys had it tougher on that level. How sad is that? We all need good friends! Im still learning how to make them now! I was socially retarded when I went in! I also had addictive behaviors(manipulation, people pleasing, pride and worthlessness) and Im sure all these things were exacerbated, compounded and suppressed while I was there and even more so with the guilt complex tagged on when leaving! Yes the "sheep" can be "more real" but we where encouraged to "tattle" on anyone who we thought might be committing that any type of "sin" which could be even something as being depressed or worthless or prideful. Even maybe something as trivial as making funny noises to amuse the children which would be deemed as foolishness!   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:13 am:        What is the difference between "tattling" and gossip? My uncle always told of us girls when we were growing up that tattling is the worst form of gossip because it was an intentional way to get someone in trouble. I imagine in their case they may feel it is for the members own good.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 233 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:46 am:        For the members own good and for the good of the "Edah".(hebrew for congregation, community, swarm (as of bees), and witness.   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 5:34 am:        unknownunsure, I have heard of others feeling the same about tattling, but being a mother of two small children, I want to know if someone is doing something that isn't right, because it effects the safety and security of all involved. I think not telling the truth about something you know is wrong, is lying. If a citizen knows about a crime and doesn't report it, they are held just as responsible as the person who committed it, as an accomplice. I guess the difference between gossip and tattling is that gossip is tanted with selfish motives, like just wanting to see someone get in trouble, rather than wanting to see someone's actions corrected for the benefit of all.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 6:01 am:        I never found it hard to make friends in the community, just the opposite my problem at times was being over familiar. Intransition is right communication and living an open life. You make friends by being a friend. I think sometime we get jammed up by our insecureties, like I said before we have to invest, we can't put on the person and accuse them of being stand offish. I made that mistake all too often. By the way Nabba, if you knew me which in essence you do, you would know battered wife syndrom is definitly not a problem of mine.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 8:46 am:        Nabba I can see where I misunderstood what you were trying to say concerning battered spouse syndrome brought on by the community.I tried to edit but was too late. Shalom   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:12 am:        lets_be_real, What is over familiar, why is it a problem? Where do you perceive the breakdown in communication occurring in the community, at an individual level or within the structure of the government?   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 236 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:27 pm:        You know the saying "Over familiarity breeds contempt"? When your "buddy", who has let you slide on some of your not so "correct" actions and you have done the same with him, tries to correct you on something, you say "Hey! What about when you did that "other thing"? You cant tell me what to do!" and you then hold them in contempt... I suppose you could call it the code of "honor amongst thieves"... "Friends dont rat on friends"... But I dont see where you couldnt have a close friendship where you helped each other out with your shortcomings without getting the "authorities" involved... as long as no one is truly being hurt... I think its ludicrous when you are encouraged to "rat" on your friend for "unlawful good deeds"! Have you ever heard of such a oxymoron? So...lets_be_real... Do you think they need to change and repent or do you? You say they are on the right path... What path? Whos path? Is theirs the only one? Do you believe in their purpose? Lets be real...really real!   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 237 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 2:15 pm:        If you were to see something you thought the needed to be done, maybe something nice, like finishing up someone didnt finish because they were pulled away to do some thing else, and you helped them out (maybe you did the whole thing), maybe even without telling them "hey! I finished that for you" (so you dont lose your "reward" in heaven) You would be guilty of a "lawless good deed" because you werent told to do so! You are to capitulate in the "Body". In other words, cut your head off because you are NOT TO THINK!!!! You are NOT the HEAD so you dont need one! You dont need your mind nor your lips! Only the HEAD speaks!!! "Dont let your human voice be silenced!" What a joke! Thats exactly what they demand of you!   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 238 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 2:16 pm:        Heres a Twelve Tribes teaching on "Lawless Good Deeds"... Each part has its own function in the Body. Colossians 2:19 Finally the Body grows as it is supposed to. We can do it if the prophets put it into the hearts of the elders, teachers, shepherds, etc. Then it will be put into the Body. What is in the head goes to the other parts. My hand would never question what my head was thinking. Use you hands to love, it means crucify the flesh. Our part is submission, giving our will over to His will. We need all the things in Ephesians 4:11 to bring about Ephesians 4:12. Equip means qualification, look up the word equip,perfecting of the saints. Lawless Deeds/Approved Deeds In Titus 2:14, what does iniquity mean? Lawlessness, lawless action, unlawful deeds. He purifies us from lawless deeds so we would be zealous for good deeds. It contrasts two types of deeds. The word iniquity there means lawless deeds or unapproved action — not approved, not done by faith (Rom 14:22,23). Have you ever done something that was unapproved, that you did not do by faith, that you were not hearing our Father saying to do, that you didn't have a good conscience about doing when you did it? That is the 'wickedness' that Titus 2:14 is talking about. This contrast between good deeds and lawless deeds is the same contrast as between the wise and foolish in Dan 12:10. There is a purification going on in the wise, but no purification is going on in the wicked because they are doing things in their own initiative. These wise/foolish people are in the same Body, not in the world. Both are in the community. There are the wise and the foolish. He purifies the wise but not the foolish. This word 'foolish' means the same thing as wicked. When they translate it, it comes out to 'iniquity', but actually it means lawlessness, unapproved action that shows you have a wicked heart that is not malleable, not changeable, cannot be worked with. So what is he going to purify us from? lawless deeds. Dan 12:10 and Titus 2:14 is the same purification. Do you remember doing any lawless deeds lately? (Mt 7:21- 23) You have to do His will not your own will; we don't live for ourselves anymore. Why wouldn't our Master let that man (Mt 7:21-23) come into the kingdom if he did so many good things? Because he did things without our Master — lawlessly. We are in a Body. We do not do lawless actions; we don't go somewhere and do our own things (lawless action). Have you ever done something that was not approved by your own conscience, the law of God in your heart? Rom 14:22,23 — You are condemned if you don't eat from faith. So we have to have faith in everything we do. Faith is hearing from God our Father, however He speaks. And whatever is done apart from that is iniquity. Everything not done from faith is sin. We need to grasp hold of that. Then we will be zealous for good deeds and we will know when we are doing an evil deed. If we do evil deeds we are not going to be welcome in the kingdom. In that day, He will say to us, "Depart from Me because you did deeds in your own initiative, not My initiative." Titus 2:14; Rom 14:22,23; Dan 12:10 — Get those verses together so that we can be saved. That is what we are doing here. Our Master wants us to be saved for His kingdom (Rev 3:4,5). "Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." If he doesn't condemn himself by what he approves, it means his approval comes from the Spirit, from the law of God in his heart — it is lawful action, approved.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 239 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 2:34 pm:        But it is so easy to just be here and drift. You know what drifting is? It is not seeking your Master anymore (Heb 2:1-3). Even though you didn't leave, you are just drifting away — doing it in your own strength and not (1 Pet 4:11) in the strength and grace that He provides. That is how the first church drifted away — into their own strength, their own power. Thus the community was transferred over into that strength, and then people who came in were all living only by their own strength, their own authority. They had a form of godliness, but they did not have the power to actually (1 Tim 3:5) do His will, for they were doing it in their own strength. But our Master said (Jn 15:5) that without Him we can do nothing. That keeps us from doing lawless deeds. If you have done something without YAHSHUA, you have done lawless deeds. The flesh profits nothing to build up the Body — it is useless, dead works (Heb 6:1). Dead works do not accomplish anything — they are not our Father's will. Even though you might have cast out demons, it did not accomplish the will of our Father (and seven came back anyway). Dan 12:10. We want to hear our Master say, "Welcome my good and faithful servant, because you did everything by my strength that I provided for you. You let Me live through you." Are you dead to God, or alive? 1 Jn 1:6 — Anyone who says he is in fellowship but is not and so everything he does is in his own strength and initiative, is a liar. He says, "You can trust me. I'm walking in the light, I'm not a hidden reef. I'm not a cloud without rain." A cloud without rain promises the nourishment and growth of the rain but instead it passes on by — just another cloud without rain. Are you a cloud without rain? Nahaliel — If you did it in His name, it means he authorized you to do it. Many of us do good deeds, but not by the voice you hear in your heart. We have His Spirit, everything we do has to be by his initiative, because He sent us. This is the prophet we have in our heart now. He is the head. Our brothers tell us what He is sending us to do. If we continue to do lawless deeds, He'll send us away from the kingdom. He'll say, "I don't know you. You spent the whole time in the Body doing what you wanted to do." [Lawful deeds are coordinated with the head. When we all exercise together after the sacrifice, Elad, our Israelite guest, does a totally different kind of exercises. It is uncoordinated from the head because he doesn't have a king — so he just does what is right in his own eyes.] David Derush — Rom 14:23 is something to bring fear to us. Our judgment in this is our own conviction before God. Yaqar — I saw that we need to work with vision and faith otherwise it is lawless work done in the flesh. Every little bit of spiritual food that we get is helping us to grow. We can't receive all of our spiritual food all at once, but each little bit at a time. Yoneq told us once that in America in the beginning it was really difficult. In the beginning it was difficult for the people to grow, but here we are growing really fast because we are receiving what they received and we will be responsible to pass it on to our brothers who are going to come after us. We are being renewed to be spiritual people. We have to be spiritual people. We have to guard the land our Father gave to us. Through the example of those brothers who went before us, we are going to take this land that our Father promised to Abraham. God gave us a spirit, a souls, a heart, a head, and a brain so that you would use them and not rely on others to do your thinking for you.... Unless of course you want to be an automaton, do as your told without question, so you dont have any accountability to man or God!   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 8:53 pm:        Naba What does it mean when the Son of God said I only do the will of my Father,I do nothing apart from him. I only do and speak what he has told me.It seems that you have people here that are seeking the truth, I believe the tribes are seeking the same and bringing it about as best they know how. Truth Seeker as far as communication when problems arise or your feeling certain things you need to be open and honest.Some can shut down and just bury things and they fester and just bring about misery. Many have left the community because they weren't able to open up and be real with the thing they were feeling. Whether from insecurities or pride.But unfortunately usually blaming everyone else but themselves. (Message edited by lets be real on September 05, 2007)   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 240 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:15 pm:        "Naba, What does it mean when the Son of God said I only do the will of my Father,I do nothing apart from him" I believe it means exactly what He said! So who determines who has that direct line to God? Are you saying the leaders of the Twelve Tribes have that? And that they are the only ones? That they are Gods only mouth piece on earth? I believe God spoke to my heart when He told me to leave and that the leaven of the Pharisees had leavened the whole loaf, just as Yoneq heard Him say "Gather my people"! Are you a friend of Yahshua? If so then why isnt He or God speaking to you! And if He is, its your choice to do as He says! If He is telling you to go back to the Tribes, then go! Maybe He has something there He wants you to do! Maybe God wants you to make a new loaf! Who knows? Follow your heart!   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:28 pm:        lets_be_real, Thanks, that is good to know... I'm sure I am capable of being that way myself. Is that why you left? Are you concerned at all about being given over to a lie? I've heard people talk like you here before, and then the next thing you know they are cheering on naba on his crusades. I hope that doesn't happen to you, I can hear something in your words that still shines, has beauty, and resemble Yahshua. Best of searching to you, truth_seeker   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 11:31 pm:        Comeon - lets be real. Many try to open up, only to be shut down. It's a two way street. Sure. there is accountability for shutting down but there is also accountability for shutting someone down. I have been on both sides.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 12:54 am:        Be careful intransition! You'll be accused of supporting my "Crusade"!   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 7:33 am:        Intransition, let me show you something. I think I know who you are thru what naba communicated in an earlier post. If not it doesn't matter this is still a wonderful lesson.In an earlier time in the community I went thru a very hard circumstace very hard , it almost caused me to leave I was a young disciple. It stung for a very long time I thought it was totally insensitive and unfair. Years later you were going thru the same type of circumstance and suffering deeply, out of control. I was in a place to help you although I had so much on my plate also. I really went out of my way to do the best I could to meet your needs. You know what, If I myself hadn't gone thru what I had gone thru at an earlier time I for sure wouldn't have been so keen to your needs. So what type of Faith do we have. Does our Father see all things and know what we need to be saved. Our Master said to Pilot you wouldn't have any authority over me unless my Father had given it to you.Now that's understanding. Naba thank you for your encouragement but I'm taking care of what I need to take care of right now. Shalom   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 242 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:15 am:        "Naba thank you for your encouragement but I'm taking care of what I need to take care of right now." Your welcome lets_be real! Encouragement heals both ways! But you know exactly whet the TT would say about your predicament dont you? "Yahshua said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family." Yahshua replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." But the TT fail to take this into consideration! 1 Timothy 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."   stillserving New member Username: stillserving Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 6:05 pm:        lets be real, it seems like if one is truly following his heart even if it leads him out of the community for a time then.... well, "a man has gotta do what a man has got to do" I admire your courage   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 246 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 7:09 pm:        stillserving... You realise that we can see that you are posting from the same computer as lets_be_real right????   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 7:38 pm:        Well, it would have been interesting to see where that conversation would have headed... Lets_be_real, you are so busted! No worries though, you aren't the first one to do such a thing around here. He,he...   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 7:41 pm:        truth_seeker...it could be a family member...   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 8:33 pm:        Well, if it is, then it sounds like they are on the same page, no pun intended.   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 249 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 8:41 pm:        Any who... lets_be_real, I also applaud your courage.   lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 8:58 pm:        Naba, my other half I scolded her even before you all responded. Lawless Good Deed. Sorry about that.   intransition New member Username: intransition Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.240.74.67 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 9:23 pm:        LBR - I applaud your courage too. It is unfortunate that there aren't more with enough courage to pursue the necessary changes. Thanks for the help - whenever that might have been? If you want, contact me privately - maybe we can talk some without airing too much laundry. rn_frank@yahoo.com   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 252 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 9:49 pm:        LBR! No apology necessary! I also applaud your loyal and supportive spouse! Remember! There is NO law against good deeds!   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:13 pm:        We must really confuse people them since Misti, Randy and I all post from the same computer. Hmmm wonder if that comes from living in the same house...??   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:16 pm:        Hey, I noticed Nabashalam and his 17 other personalities post from the same location!!! Just teasing, Nabash, we love you!   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 253 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:32 am:        Hey! I might be schizophrenic but I'm good people!   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:58 am:        You are!   unknownunsure Junior Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 12:24 am:        I have a question. Has any non-members that has visited the communities ever met Yoneq? I asked my uncle and two other people that are not members and all have answered me "no" they hadn't. My uncle said he has no idea where Yoneq was and didn't ask, because he was there to see what life was like everyday in their life, not to try meet anyone in particular. The reason I asked is one part of a class I took in Psychology in college was about cults. (I am in no way accusing Twelve Tribes of being a cult because I have never been there to make such judgement), It said that one of the signs a group could be a cult is if they are based on the teachings of a leader to whom access is denied before joining. It could be that Yoneq was at abother community when people have visited. I am asking because if I could see someone has visited with him before then it would be positive for the Twelve Tribes. I hope this makes sense. And before anyone starts in with their wild accusations... I am NOT making judgement or accusations. (Message edited by unknownunsure on September 08, 2007)   truth_seeker Member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:27 am:        unknownunsure, My husband met Yoneq at the yellow deli reunion in Chattanooga, TN. He was living with the community in Ashville, NC. at that time with some of our friends. I didn't talk to him, but his wife shared with the group about her life and love for Yahshua. They seemed like real nice, down to earth, normal people.   fatherofaking Intermediate Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 295 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.159.145 Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 1:48 pm:        back in the island pond vt. days (early to mid eighties) yoneq was quite accessible. he lived in island pond most of the time. it has never been about hiding him so much as it is that most just don't know what he is doing or where he is at any given time. there are about 3000 people scattered across the globe. he could be at any of those communities. last i knew he was living in boston mass. they are close to logan airport.   unknownunsure Member Username: unknownunsure Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.49.198.243 Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 6:47 pm:        Thank you both, this is reassuring. It woul;d be hard to trust a group where the leaders may be inaccessable. }   nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 255 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.128.244.102 Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:36 pm:        As far as being a member,it would be very difficult to talk to Yoneq if he wasnt actually at where you were living. You wouldn't just call him or send him a letter without going through the "chain of command". He would not be bothered with anything that couldn't be quashed at the community level.   sabbathkeeper Member Username: sabbathkeeper Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.24.147.84 Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 12:31 am:        NOOO NOOO NOOO ...Move foward with what we have!! TQ Peace on ...

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