| Author | Message | ||
     trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 320 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.4 |
The recent publication of Mother Teresa's letters and papers reveal that she was in faking it. She was racked with doubt and could not perceive the presence of her god for the majority of her life. The Dark Night of the Soul experience is one that many of us can relate to, I believe everyone goes through it that has tried to lead any kind of a spiritual life. What you do with it is the question. I believe Mother Teresa's story is a prime example of faith as intellectual dishonesty. | ||
| ihavesinned Intermediate Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 250 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 64.122.1.158 |
Right, But she is praised for her faith and diligence by religious people. It seems that me and Mother Teresa hear exactly the same thing from God. Dead silence. On the other hand, this story seems to prove that charity and compassion can exist without any influence from the divine, which should not be a surprise. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 321 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.4 |
Mother Teresa's 'charity and compassion' wasn't what you or I would consider 'charity and compassion' if you care to take a look at it closely. She considering 'suffering' to be a positive thing that brings the sufferer closer to god and her establishments weren't hospital were people went to get well, they were places people went to die. | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 59.101.230.36 |
Suffering IS something that brings us closer to God , these days we are so interested in making our flesh comfortable and treating God like a Santa Claus that we forget that the lust of the flesh is not a good thing, in fact many preach for it these days. 1 Peter 2:21,3:14,3:18, 5:10. And so it goes, the bible is full of sharing in the death and suffering of Christ to share in His life, we just don't like to look at those verses. However about Mother Teresa, it astounds me that she didn't have the Presence of God with her, the light of His love or His love, so it means she did all she did in her own strength and this (in heaven) ends up amounting to a big fat 0, that is the disturbing part of mother Teresa's life. She talks as though she was on fire and lost it, sounds like she lost it the time she began her work, in fact that is what she says, the time she began her work was the time she lost it. Wonder if that is when she started to listen to the praise of man before above and over the praise of God? It disturbs me hearing of people who have lost their light, can't think of anything worse. Still I know there is hope and I know that Mother Teresa will be in heaven, even if her works aren't.} | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 59.101.230.36 |
geez, how do I make things bold on this thing? I tried highlighting and it didn't work, tried holding the bold button downwhen I am writing, okay that worked, but not when editing? | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
trainedobserver, The recent publication of Mother Teresa's letters and papers reveal that she was nothing more than human, like all of us, with doubts and reservation, with flaws and imperfections. | ||
| bear Junior Member Username: bear Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.90.101.196 |
It was also mentioned that she desired to have these personal writings destroyed; they were not. I am not sure that we can conclude that faith is intellectual dishonesty just from a small portion of her life story. Not too many of us have ever, or will ever, engage in the type of work that she had done for some many years. We must take in her full life story, not just portions presented by the media. It would be very easy to doubt, which is human, when faced with the dire circumstances that MT faced. Doubt is healthy. Doubt causes us to do one of two things: 1. Turn away from something. 2. Work out the struggle, and come out with a different or better understanding. My personal observation (not meant to be a definitive statement for every situation) has been that many turn away when in doubt, and few go through the struggle. Note: MT recent story is only one portion of her life. The struggle is hard...it takes work. Those who work through the struggle actually have more intellectual honesty, for it causes them to actually think, struggle and conclude, than those who turn away. This is also just an opinion. (Message edited by bear on August 29, 2007) (Message edited by bear on August 29, 2007) | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.39 |
I know from personal experience that real suffering is terribly overrated. Healthy life seeks to relieve suffering not encourage it. I would say any religious organization that promotes suffering is a dangerous cult. Mother Teresa was a fake ... a going-through-the-motions phony who would have better served the world if she would have been honest with the rest of us about her god. Instead she presented her 'play-pretend dream world' as spiritual truth. What a waste. It should cause any truth seeker to re-examine their own thinking and beliefs. | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 267 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
I couldn't disagree with you more. I think that you are obviously presenting your bias against religion here, without consideration to the fact that Mother Teresa devoted most of her life to relieve the suffering of others. You called her a fake. Are you any better than her? Have you helped as many people as her? Are your morals, ethics, and heart of higher quality - more real - than hers, that you are in the position of labeling her as a "fake."? Even if Mother Teresa was wrong to believe in a merciful and loving God - to the point that she felt obligated as a Christian to serve others to the best of her ability - then she was much more an honorable person for having devoted her life to that mission. However deluded you believe Mother Teresa was, she was much more human than any of us for having helped and served so many. I'll take her kind of delusion any day. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 347 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.50 |
Mother Teresa devoted most of her life to relieve the suffering of others. This was done how exactly? Did she provide medical hospitals where the sick were treated and released or hospices were the sick were cared for as they suffered and died? Is she famous for pioneering new techniques in medicine either directly or indirectly in any way? | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 270 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
One needn't be a doctor or health care professional, or any type of innovator to genuinely relieve the suffering of others. Mother Teresa cared for people in more practical ways: She fed them, clothed them, set up shelters, orphanages, charities, and facilitated the administration of health care in some of the most poverty-stricken places on earth. She's probably saved more lives in her service to people than we can estimate. | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 59.101.230.36 |
I heard of one instance when someone tried to give her some some type of fancy dwelling and she was worried the poor would be intimidated by the glitz. She wasn't lofty of mind and that is what I liked about her. Trainedobserver, I can't believe you are questioning what she did. He whole life was given to the poor and marginalised, she lived as one of them and took nothing more for herself that the rest had. | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 59.101.230.36 |
Her work was obviously initialised through a live faith,if that changed later on is really between her and God and that should teach us that it's not about the works, but about the relationship we have with God that matters. Faith without works is dead, so is works without faith. That includes pioneers and people who invent new medicines. She obviously lived her life in the hope that light would re-enter her dark world, as not doubt all who have tasted of the light of God are satisfied with nothing less.I hope her craving was ultimately satified. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 354 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.6 |
I can't believe you are questioning ... And there ... is the problem. If you would question more you would find that there is more than tickles the ear and meets the eye especially about public figures like Mother Teresa. | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
Questioning from curiosity is very different than questioning from suspicion. What a waste of precious time being suspicious or skeptical of people all time. I prefer to give people the benefit of doubt. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 358 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.12 |
I prefer to give people the benefit of doubt. As do I until evidence proves otherwise. Believe whatever you want to believe about Mother Teresa it hardly matters. Public religious dogmatics who entertain personal doubt without public disclosure do everyone a disservice. | ||
| bluewater2 Intermediate Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 491 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
I find it interesting, bordering on dishonesty, for her to wish that her papers be destroyed, yet she did not destroy them herself. Was she actually hoping that others were going to read them, but still wanted to maintain the position that she did not want them read? One thing is for sure, she was deeply thoughtful, and the thoughtfulness left her wondering if it was all what it was made out to be. She was obviously not inspired by god to do the things she did. | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 273 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
To quote the eminent Col. Potter: Horse hockey | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 274 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
Of course you would have to have experienced such inspiration in order to judge. | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 59.101.230.36 |
She does refer to being in the dark just after she commenced her work, implying that she once had the light, if that is so, then she started her work in Christ. I am puzzled as to how she will be canonised because I know of no miracles in her life and I understand one of the criterion for canonisation is actual miracles. Or extraordinary events in your life. Certainly her work was extraordinary, but I was under the impression there needed to be evidence of a healing or another miracle. | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 275 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
I'm sure the Roman Church will find a way to get around such a technicality. Heck, they just dispensed of purgatory....after how many hundreds of years? | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 59.101.230.36 |
I know the church will be united one day, don't know how, but know it will happen so that together we are united and not divided so we are able to stand. The Catholic church think it's the only one, the Pentecostal s think it is they who are the only chosen ones so do the Luterans, Apostolic, church of Christ, Methodist and Marononites and so it goes on and on. Truth is each has a degree of truth as each sees through a different section of the glass dimly. If there be love there also shall be a reconciliation of differences. Not an exaltation of one against another but a humble washing of each other's feet as we recognise each other's flaws and choose to wash them instead of condemn. | ||
| bear Junior Member Username: bear Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.90.101.196 |
TO stated: "And there ... is the problem. If you would question more you would find that there is more than tickles the ear and meets the eye especially about public figures like Mother Teresa." I agree with your statement. I question out of suspicion more than curiosity. If I am curious, I am not really questioning. Skeptisism is healthy, and keeps us from being trapped in one dogmatic pit. To say "I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt" is really saying "I will accept anything I hear without finding out if it is true". | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 61.68.189.132 |
"I question out of suspicion more than curiosity. If I am curious, I am not really questioning." Huuuuuuuu? | ||
| bear Junior Member Username: bear Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.90.101.196 |
Huuuuuuuu? It is obvious that you are not a critical thinker, so allow me to explain. If I am curious, yes I am questioning, but only to find a simple answer. When one is suspicious of an idea, dogma, etc, their questioning causes them to research in order to gain a clear understanding of all the ideas pertaining to the issue at hand. For the simple mind, I will give a more detailed statement than I did in my previous post: If I am curious, I am not questioning because I disagree or am seeking to truly understand something. Curiosity seeks a simple answer to a situation, not a clear understanding of all the facts, or all the details pertaining to a situation. Tell me, giulia, did you read the last paragraph of my last post, or did you simply read the first part, disagree with my position, and then draw a premature conclusion? | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 65 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 61.68.189.132 |
I simply think that many who criticise do not use the same standard for themselves and so it becomes mere hypocrisy and hot air with no substance. Ahh so see, one minute you are telling me I am not a critical thinker, then at the end you tell me I am too much of a critic and you have also loaded it with the judgement of ignorance to boot. We can analyse that we learn from someone's shortcomings (and we all have them), but to stand in judgement?not this black duck. If you question out of suspicion is it not your curiosity that is motivating you to question, and if it's not, then is it doubt from which you question? Some things I accept by faith, that they just are and for someone to be pulling down someone who has obviously lived their life in pursuit of the ultimate goal in Christ is a tad lofty minded. We are all seeking to take hold of the prize in Christ, how can one criticise, rightfully another's earnest efforts? | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 301 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
Suspicion does not arise from the critical mind, it arises from doubt and mistrust, both of which often are sourced themselves in self-doubt and insecurity. The critical thought process often has nothing to do with either doubt or suspicion, but simply of applying logic, questioning premises, and testing those premises to see if they are true. The critical thought process need not always leave one at a contrasting conclusion to the premise either. | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 61.68.189.132 |
I agree,but if it inspires you to be curious then sometimes you can get faith out of that. Curiosity is healthy, when not used to pull someone down. At times even critical thought process and logic gets in the way of faith, we must learn to trust in Jesus even when we cannot see any logic. The examples of the greats of faith in the book of Hebrews are all ones who have not trusted in logic but gone beyond into faith. I realise it's hard to swallow, it feels good to come with clever logical arguments to defend our faith, sometimes we get so carried away with that we forget our faith and great illogical things God would have us do simply by faith. Church is so full of creative thought and magnification of great and lofty thinking to prop up the self with that we forget that we are fools for Christ, instead with logic we try to give foundation to our faith, making into something earthly and no longer heavenly, this is also from a yearning to fit into the earthly mould of greatness. Naha, don't work. Philippians 1:29 "For you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" Not a verse we hear often these days because the cross has become (even to the church) offensive as it is associated with suffering, something we avoid at all costs and even our theories are laden with logic to avoid the shame of the cross. Unless we suffer the cross and that includes the shame thereon, we will not receive the honour of the glory Our Lord will clothe us with as a reward for our faith. (Message edited by Giulia on September 05, 2007) | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 61.68.189.132 |
We stay close to the cross when we continue, to live in the death of Christ, at the cross. Because it is only there we will have life. God will not have us be shamed, but when we live therein we are fools as we are not of this world and it is impossible to try to make something heavenly into an earthly thing, it just doesn't work, fire and water is no compatible on earth as it is in heaven. | ||
| bear Junior Member Username: bear Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.108.150.4 |
Giulia, Please accept my apology. Without an excuse, it was wrong for me to make a judgement about you. Know, a gew things: 1. I was responding to your huuuuuuuu? 2. Your statement: Ahh so see, one minute you are telling me I am not a critical thinker, then at the end you tell me I am too much of a critic and you have also loaded it with the judgement of ignorance to boot. I never once called you a critic; I asked a question. The critic issue is your interpretation; not my words, not my intent. 3. If you question out of suspicion is it not your curiosity that is motivating you to question, and if it's not, then is it doubt from which you question? Good Question. Yes and no, depending on the issue. Curiosity will follow suspicion, but it is not the motivator. Allow me to be clear: There are those that are suspicious for the wrong reasons. For me suspicion does arise from doubt, but that is an attempt to search for truth and resolve, not to be critical. It is for my personal interests. Through the scriptural text we see man and women of God who doubted, struggled, and wrestled with their faith and the issues of life. Those who worked through their doubt became mighty in the life for God. Sorry for any spelling errors, I nee to run here in 2 minutes, and I am typing very fast. | ||
| giulia Member Username: giulia Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 61.68.189.132 |
Yeah, sweet. You know whilst it is great to describe the essence of faith as being the substance that holds all things together, this logical explanation does not give faith to others. In order to receive faith one must receive with their heart, then their mind will align with it. Otherwise all the fancy explanations are fruitless. I have slightly stayed from the Mother Teresa topic, but as we are talking faith it is all related. | ||
| bear Junior Member Username: bear Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.108.150.4 |
My attempt is not to give faith to others, rather to have a contructive discusion on this forum. The def. of "Suspicion" is this: The act of suspecting something; something wrong, on little evidence of proof." Suspicion is not bad, especially if you are lacking evidence, which in turn means that you are in doubt. I search for the evidence and proof. You know, maybe suspicion i not the best term to use. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 378 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.39 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUepv_k-xaY | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 327 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
Horsehockey. Isn't that the voice of "Penn" of "Penn and Teller" fame. Yeah. He's a really sweet guy....Not. He's a hateful atheist to the core. I would say "religious bigot," but that's too kind a term. | ||
| loverofchrist Intermediate Member Username: loverofchrist Post Number: 328 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.117.99.166 |
Horsehockey. Isn't that the voice of "Penn" of "Penn and Teller" fame. Yeah. He's a really sweet guy....Not. He's a hateful atheist to the core. I would say "religious bigot," but that's too kind a term. | ||
| firstgarden Member Username: firstgarden Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
Loverofchrist - I'm not a Catholic. But I stand with you on your compassionate, non-judgmental position toward Mother Theresa. And I am deeply thankful that I will be throwing myself at the feet of Jesus for mercy at the bema seat, and not at the feet of some of the folks around the message board. BTW, I did have a personal question for you, if you don't mind. Could you drop me a line? firstgarden7@aol.com |
