| Author | Message | ||
     HaveTo Remain Anonymous4Now (198.81.26.106) |
Does anyone have any info and opinions on Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, founded by Che Ahn and Lou Engle? I had some exposure to then when they were Abundant Life Community Church there. I know they are big into the Toronto outpouring stuff...bark like a dog...things like that. But I do not think that in itself defines the identity of the group one way or the other. How do the relate to other Christian movements? Are they isolationists? Anything about the integrity of the leadership? I had a bad experience with the leadership as they went to my daughter, who was visiting with a friend, and when I had long before counseled with the in confidentiality about a marital indescretion I had and later left the group...they told my daughter everything when she did not even ask...actually they told her friend so that she would not associate with my daughter...who knew nothing about it and is a fine Christian girl. It really hurt my feelings and made me lose respect for the leadership. But in fairness people make mistakes. I am walking with God now and have since changed my own life. I am just sad that what I communicated in private when I was seeking help was used against me and intended to destroy my relationship with my own child and family. They also told others not to associate with me and would have never known anything at all if I did not come to them for help for my situation. I was not even a member of the church. I liked Che Ahn alot and Lou too. When I confronted them about it, they denied they said anything...which was not true. I never thought I would have had to threaten them ...another Christian movement...with an actual lawsuit to stop the rumors but that was what happened. After that things subsided but I lost respect for them and their church. Yet people are not perfect and make mistakes and I would be willing to forgive...however they never sought me out to make things right. I was wondering if anyone else out there has had similar experiences with this group. | ||
| Anonymous (4.233.83.34) |
Yes, they are a bunch of wackos. Stay away from them. Follow the Word of God and find a healthy, well-balanced church. Calvary Chapel Pasadena is excellent. | ||
| Have2Remain Anonymous4Now (152.163.101.12) |
To Anon 4: It sounds like you have had some exposure or experience with Harvest Rock. Could you tell me more about what you experienced and why you feel as you do? I would be interested because that whole situation really bothered me and left a scar on me as far as trusting leadership. I had some friends that attended and they turned those people against me and, as I mentioned, while not even being a member and trying to get counsel as to deal with a marital issue..they began disassociating with me when I told them of my problem and then, when I was no longer even attending as a visitor...and had moved on with my life...trying to recover and straighten out my marriage...my daughter had visited with a friend and they told her friend everything about my past so she would not associate with my daughter, who was a fine Christian girl (still is) and did absolutely nothing to anyone. Before that happened, I was okay with the group and just let it all go. But after that, I felt they got personal and tried to attack me and that bothered me. I still have no real bitterness towards them. It is just that they claim to practically "have it all"...and yet they conduct themselves in such a manner. So I was just wondering if there were other similar incidents or if mine was just an isolated one. | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Junior Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.43.195.205 |
Take a look at:http://watch.pair.com/antipas.html Also might do a search on the name of the former church and the pastor. Usually you come up with information about teachings, beliefs, etc. M or Michael | ||
| redeemed1 New member Username: redeemed1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.87.129.144 |
Che Ahn was discipled by the restorationist Dick Iverson. Restoration is a sector of the Latter Rain Movement which was declared heretical by the Assemblies of God April 20th of 1949. Che Ahn is also one of C. Peter Wagner's New Apostolic Roundtable apostles for his New Apostolic Reformation. Probably the most dangerous movement in the Church today. So, dangerous and pervasive is this movement that I would strongly recommend that you attend for a time a church that has no charismatic influence whatsoever. It won't kill you, they are not the enemy, and I am not suggesting that you do it permanently. But if you were attending Che Ahn's church you have been steeped in false teachings, such so that only by completely removing yourself will you be able to sort things out. As a Pentecostal by new birth myself, I know that Charismatics are loath to attend cessationist Churches, considering them dead, and so you are unlikely to heed my advice. Which is too bad, because though the medicine might seem to taste terrible, the healthy new insight that it will bring would be invaluable. As for Che Ahn's alleged indiscretions. If they are true, then by them as well, Che Ahn is ill qualified to be an elder. One of the qualifications in Timothy 3 is for an elder to be "above reproach". Just because Western Christianity has sunk to such lows that this verse seems unreasonable to expect of a minister. It does not change the facts. The qualifications for a true minister of God are daunting but real. This should cause every minister of God to be quick to hear and slow to speak, circumspect and grave. These new light, happy, snappy kind of ministers are disasters waiting to happen. Che Ahn also often visits here, in Abbotsford, British Columbia,Canada so he can join the shameless phony faith healer, Todd Bentley in his charades. | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.186.18 |
Please fill me in on Todd Bentley, as I want to know what he is up to. Walked out on him three times in Oregon, and felt he is just bizarre! Got on his site and saw that he and his wife took a "sabbatical"---wondered what is up. Is Harvest Rock on Lake Avenue? When I was growing up in Arcadia (I attended Arcadia Presbyterian Church), Lake Avenue Church (Congregational?) had quite a big youth group as I recall. When did it go through all of the name-changing if it's the same church? Nina | ||
| redeemed1 New member Username: redeemed1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 209.87.129.159 |
Nina The talk around town here (Abbotsford) where Todd Bentley lives, is that he has had a nervous breakdown. And is therefore on Sabbatic. As a side note: This is not to say that I believe in the concept of a "nervous breakdown" as it has nothing to do with our nerves. It would better be described as a "resource breakdown" the person has run out of resources with which to handle his life and difficulties and so has "shut down, or flipped out, depending on his personal preference. Often our way of handling our life and difficulties is not right (Biblical) and when it comes down to the crunch they fail us and leave us floundering. (Message edited by redeemed1 on April 21, 2006) | ||
| nina_s Intermediate Member Username: nina_s Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 209.216.173.237 |
Thanks for the info, Redeemed. Hopefully he will turn to the Truth---the Bible and the Lord! Can anyone answer my question on Harvest Rock? Thanks! Nina | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1154 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Hi, Harvest Rock was a Vineyard Church that combined with the Mott's Auditorium group headed by the American Korean Che Ahn. By the way, Dick Iverson of Portland Or., and a writer in the Spirit Filled Bible with Jack Hayford as Editor is better than this guy. Right before the merger of these two churches I visited Harvest Rock and it seemed an OK church to me. When the merger took place I went to a couple of meetings to investigate, since some of my friends were leaving our Home Church to go to this church. There was no laughing in the service, although they were connected with the laughing movement Toronto Group. One meeting I went to had Jim Goll as a speaker and his wife and him were going to sing prophecy to the church. The prayer sessions after the meeting were down right strange. They had young children being the prayer leaders of little prayer groups throughout the church. I saw one group of teenagers "Pass the Laugh"...they would go ha ha ha and then pass it off with their hand. The Korean Christians have a habit of audibly groaning when they pray, and interesting thing to listen to. I saw people fall on the floor, "slain in the spirit", but it seemed like to me a Kundalini demon manifesting if you want to know the truth. I was praying to the Lord for protection, I was putting on the armor of God, even praying in my prayer language. One lady got up and shouted that she had seen God in His Shekinah Glory, it wasn't correct, it was off. * My friend that left our Home Church had been a pastor and went to the pastor meeting. I told my friend that I had seen false manifestations and false demonic activity in these meeting. He told me that the other pastors had seen it also, but they didn't to stop the madness, because they, "Didn't want to quench the Spirit." He knew better, he had been part of an Oshrom, (however you spell it), in Illinois and had been delivered himself of some pretty heavy demons. That was just idiotic lunacy. He told me of a woman that they knew was a witch and cast a spell on one of the fellow pastors, and they cast the demon back on her and she ended up in the hospital. Complete lunacy! What a bunch of nuts...and this a Charismatic talking, mind you. * While John Wimber was alive he excommunicated this Motts Auditorium Group and this Toronto "Laughing Movement" specifically for having kids pray for adults. Exactly correct was he!! Don't just do Gifts for Gifts sake, Supernatural for Supernatural sake, stop the false that comes from Satan! Correct the errors. * Tell the witch that you know is casting demons on people to leave the service!!! I'm sorry, but I tried talking to my friend for hours to help him see the reality of this complete error! | ||
| stickwiththeword New member Username: stickwiththeword Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 66.229.31.135 |
Run Forest Run from Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena! Here's the deal...Harvest Rock oversaw and were the covering for our Hollywood church and they were so full of wisdom and discernment(total sarcasm!) that our Hollywood Pastor was in secret sin with all the men in the church in homosexual affairs and in satanic mind control and hidden witchcraft for several years, HR did nothing to handle this and when the Pastor's Mom threatened to sue HR they bailed on all the hurt memberes and our pastor got away with everyone's money and took off to Texas with his wife and will most likely open another church and molest more men and boys, they totally abandoned our church and left several new christians without any proper guidance or counseling after such a devastating event, and they had prophesied over our Pastor several times and with the KC prophets and said he was the guy who God chose to lead Hollywood and they did all kinds of weird up in the spirit crazy praying over he and his wife when the whole time the guy was oozing with sin and wickedness and nobody picked up on this? Not even the best of the so-called KC prophets? Their excuse is Prophets sometimes are wrong and blah blah blah. Well they are lucky prophets don't get stoned anymore b/c all the prophets I have heard in their church and in the Hollywood church were wrong over and over again. They are so caught up in the false prophetic movement that they have missed the whole point of the gospel. They are way caught up in seeing Angels, 3rd heaven visitations and feeding the prophets checkbooks and getting personal words....they could care less about loving the least and saving souls. Remember the message of the gospel for salvation? Whatever happened to that? It's so ridiculous and just a side show circus created by the enemy to divert your eyes from CHRIST and his message!Just stick to the bible and find sound solid gospel preaching, God will take care of the rest. You don't barking or laughing or blowing on each other to feel connected to God. On a further note, they focus on Satan wayyyyy tooo much and give him and his demons wayyyyy too much attention, I feel it only enables them more to do such things. Oh and every problem and everything has a spirit attached to it with a name. God is God and no demon can ever defeat him, Jesus said we have power over such things. It's total nonsense and foolish talk, non-discerning and completely lacks wisdom to give the devil and his minions such attention. It's an insult to Christ and the power of his Cross. I am all for binding spirits and stomping the serpent under my feet but they take it to a whole new level, you'd think Satan was more powerful than Jesus after hanging out with them. Apostolic blah blah blah, you know what I say...if you can't find a peace about it and have any sort of check in your spirit....get out!!! I had to learn the hard way...I kept thinking in my head that was judging all these leaders when I finally realized that it was cultish and not biblically sound. God saved me and got me out and now I am in a healthy church. I do believe in prophets I just have yet to see a real one  And don't get me started on the Jesus as our Lover thing....they teach this doctrine too and it's becoming more and more perverted. Be wary of anyone who starts teaching in this direction. It gets weirder and weirder as they progress and it's really sick and it opens the doors to sick Pastors like my past one who used this doctrine to lure really young men and older men into his own homosexual fantasies and molestations. I won't even offend you with the Jesus as my Lover trick he used on them. Sick sick sick. Warn all brothers and sisters especially new christians to stay away... In Christ, Shelby. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1165 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Shelby, "Their excuse is Prophets sometimes are wrong and blah blah blah. Well they are lucky prophets don't get stoned anymore b/c all the prophets I have heard in their church and in the Hollywood church were wrong over and over again. They are so caught up in the false prophetic movement that they have missed the whole point of the gospel." Good point! I'm a Charismatic also, but too many Charismatics are into false prophecy and false words. For everyone out there Scripture says, Deuteronomy 18:20-21 "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' "And if you say in your heart, 'HOW SHALL WE KNOW THE WORD WHICH THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN?'- "when a PROPHET SPEAKS IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, IF THE THING DOES NOT HAPPEN OR COME TO PASS, THAT IS THE THING WHICH THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN; THE PROPHET HAS SPOKEN IT PRESUMPTUOUSLY; YOU SHALL NOT BE AFRAID OF HIM." Next time you see that fake prophet dressed like a dragon on the cover of Charisma Magazine just remember that you don't have to be afraid of him, only God and the true Words of God. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1166 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Nina, "Is Harvest Rock on Lake Avenue? When I was growing up in Arcadia (I attended Arcadia Presbyterian Church), Lake Avenue Church (Congregational?) had quite a big youth group as I recall. When did it go through all of the name-changing if it's the same church?" Lake Avenue Church is not connected with this group at all. Lake Avenue Church no longer calls itself a Congregational Church, (Congregational are now mostly Liberals), but their Statement of Faith when I visited there 2 weeks ago, (Christian Schools were allowed to use the auditorium for a choir voice competition), clearly stated that: "The Word of God is Inerrant and Infallible..." In this day and age you can't beat that! | ||
| stickwiththeword New member Username: stickwiththeword Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 66.229.31.135 |
Easeltine, Amen to that I hear you loud and clear. My prayer is all the leaders and members that have fallen under this deception get a clear wake up call from God it has been so damaging for so many new and older Christians. I was really new to protestantism when I encountered Harvest Rock and Gateway Church. I had been raised catholic and was a believer but I didn't have a clue about all the junk out there and all the movements so I fell right into it for awhile but it never felt right. Then I got out and now I try to help people via the web with the witnessed information I have about these kinds of movements. The more I stepped away from it the more God revealed to me how terribly perverse it all is, and the more I am in his word the more I see the enemy's deception. It's unbelievable how deceptive it all can be! You have to be so discerning. In Christ, Shelby | ||
| drddpdc New member Username: drddpdc Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.230.229.228 |
Part 1A This is a three part meszage as it is so long. see next message. (Message edited by Drddpdc on November 29, 2006) | ||
| drddpdc New member Username: drddpdc Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.230.229.228 |
Open letter to members of Harvest Rock Church: I was a member of Harvest Rock Church for 7 years. During that time I have seen and experienced many things that were unusual, but not necessarily to a new convert as I was. I had been invited to attend by a friend and when down the aisle after a few services in response to an alter call. I accepted Christ as my savior. There was always laying on of hands and people falling down in the spirit as is the evangelical custom nowadays. My wife always thought they were phony but I continued as I felt I had been saved there. I served on the sound team for many services and with worship team practices and many events. I have personally talked to Che Ahn (Pastor) and had given him a ride home one night from a meeting and I had the chance to ask him about the multi-level marketing scam that he had gotten many of is into. It was called Get Moving Today or God Moving Today for the Christians. I told him that I hadn’t been in time to get my $1000.00 back as the company had gone bankrupt. Che said he got his refund and wondered why I haven’t gotten mine. There were no refunds when I applied. Che said that he probably shouldn’t have sponsored it and gotten so many Church members involved. He said, “You know my heart “implying that he wouldn’t do something from his heart that was bad. I gladly accepted his answer and felt satisfied. I didn’t know enough of the Gospel to question his answer. Let me tell what the Bible says about the heart. Gen 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Mt 15:19 Jesus: for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnesses, slanders. Prov.28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool. Jer. 17:9 The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick, who can understand it. The reason that Che endorsed the MLM was so that the congregation would make more money and tithe more. GMT’s founder had donated $200,000 to The Call. This was a project that took place at the mall in Washington D, C. and was initiated by Pastor Lou Engle. I think this is where Che picked up his taste for big donations as he had to raise $10,000,000.00 to pull off the event. Even before this Che had Peter Daniels, a Christian motivational speaker, come and sell his Christian financial success system. Many bought the deluxe system of tapes for over $1,000.00 It was just good motivational material with all the right scriptures. Not really worth the price. I bought his book for $12.00 on line. Che Ahn always asks his congregation to give sacrificially and guarantees them that God sees how much they give as a Church and God will richly bless them. If people don’t receive the transfer of wealth that he preaches will happen in these ends times, as prophesized in the Bible. Che will tell them to look at their health as a blessing or an adopted child as a blessing as he did to one congregant. Che preaches that if you want a greater blessing you must tithe on your gross income not your net. Che preaches “do you want a gross blessing or a net blessing”, sounds pretty silly to me it you want to stay in business. | ||
| drddpdc New member Username: drddpdc Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.230.229.228 |
Part 2 Spiritually they did a lot of weird things like the whole usher team falling down laughing, in the spirit. They had a thing called the fire tunnel where people would line up to go through a tunnel made up by two rows of people across from each with their hands touching above there shoulders so people would go through the tunnel and feel the spirit. Since I’m pretty strong I was recruited to help pull or push people through as they fell under the power of the spirit. They are all praying in tongues, supposedly. People kept going through. It was real goofy, but Che and the other pastors and people were really into it. I thought it was strange, contrived and not real. But what did I know, I’d only been a Christian for two years and Harvest Rock was the only exposure I had to Christianity. About two years ago HRC bought the Ambassador Auditorium that had been the showpiece of the Worldwide Church of God a well know cult group., with Maranatha High School as HRC couldn’t afford the 40 million price tag of the ambassador auditorium and the surrounding buildings so they got Ambassador for around 12 million and Maranatha got the adjacent structures for their high school campus. To be able to acquire the building they needed 3 million or so right away and started milking the congregation hard. I didn’t mind the effort and even gave a extra but didn’t refinance my house or donate my lives savings as some had. What bothered me was that Che started talking about buying the rest of the mansions on the property. He started parading people up on stage during services and they said they donated thousands off their deals and business increases since tithing at HRC. At that point I stopped tithing as I felt my $10,000 a year was chump change. I felt like they only cared about the people who could give hundreds of thousands of dollars. I’m not the only one who felt that way as many had confided in me that they felt it was wrong. Scripturally it’s not right to bring up your big donors to shame the others to give more sacrificially. This is just manipulation through guilt. I wouldn’t tell anyone not to go to HRC but you had better watch your wallet. This next item is perhaps the weirdest of them all. I had been going to the Sunday night services for a few weeks and they had a guest band. The band was incredible and the worship leader was the wife of the pastor that spoke for these three Sundays evening services. He was a little weird to me, but I though if Che let him preach he was O.K. Apparently he started a Church in West Hollywood because he mother was a wealthy Home builder from Texas. Che was very taken by this young pastor James Stauncher. After the service Che was lying on the ground, supposedly in the spirit and James was lying on the floor in front under the power of the Holy Spirit. Che later said the Holy Spirit had told him that he was to serve James Stalnaecker. I thought that was weird. But Stalnacker said the Holy Spirit told him that he was to serve Che. Che invited him to his private men’s group and was so amazed that he showed, proving his willingness to really go for it., as Che said. Well Che ordains him at the next weeks service and a few of James congregants come up and say how much they worship him as a man of God, that’s the only way to put it. It was a little creepy. I didn’t think anything of it. Six months later they shut down this Church in West Hollywood as Steelmaker was molesting many men in the congregation. There was a lawsuit filed against HRC and Che as well as the Stalnecker. By the molested men. | ||
| drddpdc New member Username: drddpdc Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.230.229.228 |
Part 3 Here’s the kicker. A year later I’m at Sunday morning service and Che proudly proclaims that a frivolous lawsuit-of course- that had been going on for a year had been settled in his favor and he couldn’t say anything until now, due to the legal proceedings. The people clapped and were thrilled. What Che didn’t tell them is what had happened. He layed on the floor and the Holy Spirit spoke to him to serve the goofball of a pastor. I think Che should have asked for forgiveness for being so blinded by his greed and pride to not be able to discern the Holy Spirit. I thought that if someone could be that off. He really doesn’t hear from the Holy Spirit. People I talked to said that God used Che to root out this sinful pastor. Some people will blindly follow their Pastor. I really though that Che was very immature and had absolutely no oversight or mentoring from a godly person. Che Ahn owns Ambassador Auditorium; there is no oversight, no board of elders. Che does what he wants as it’s all his. Che says he’s accountable, but to whom. Peter Wagner and a bunch of apostolic leaders. Advisory Board, Ha. Che is the CEO of HRC, owns everything and is accountable to no one. The teaching is very spotty there and is filled with doctrinal errors. Like spirits being able to attach to your body in one recent sermon. The teaching is so fragmented and full of hocus pocus that it’s hard to understand any consistent doctrine except that Che’s going to the nations and keep the money coming. They are no feeding program for the poor. No benevolence program for widows and orphans. There are very few if any new coverts and there is no evangelism, just talk about it. Che gave an Evangelism course three years ago and I got the tape and eagerly listened to what, I don’t know. It sure wasn’t how to properly present the Gospel to bring someone to Christ. It’s just pitiful. Don’t get me wrong. They will talk about Jesus until they are blue in the face; you just won’t see any fruit. Well the Worldwide Church of God was a cult and now there’s a new cult. It’s almost like Jesus’ ministry in that the Bible says there were so many things you couldn’t write them all down. At HRC there are many other things and hundreds of people that have left. No one ever says why they left. Suddenly there not there anymore. I watched them fire a pastor that had been there from the beginning. They offered Jin six months salary to help him on his way or else he would be fired. Remember, they are always told not to talk bad about God’s anointed, citing the Bible. Amounted people are servants like Jesus, not international leaders that won’t even pray for individual church members anymore because there britches are too big. The new lay prayer team pastors said that Che no longer prays for people in person as he used to because he is now an international leader in the body of Christ. What kind of pastor doesn’t pray for his flock? Recently they ordained a new pastor, the bookkeeper. She did such a great job turning the finances around, of course by being tight fisted and firing all but volunteer workers. Now who makes the bookkeeper a pastor? It would be funny if it wasn’t true. It could go on and on. My experience is just one of hundreds. | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.58.44 |
I would like to tell all the current HRC members that they need to do some real soul searching. Your attending a church that is ruled by a man who has only one motive. That is to make as big a name as possible for himself. He cares nothing for you personally or the lost in this world. He has little and a poor knowledge of the Word of God and is using his natural and spiritual gifts to promote himself. He's competing with a brother who's a doctor and a father who was a pastor. Along with every other big name in the current and past Christian world. He is accountable to no one. His board is nothing but yes people. His church is not qualified to have an ethical standing endorsement from the Christian community since his whole family is on the payroll. No matter what he says from the pulpit regarding this it's a lie. Check it out for yourself and ask yourself why your using all your energy and resources to feed a white elephant called Ambassador Auditorium and the Che Ahn clan and not taking the message to your friends , family , and neighbors. http://www.ecfa.org/?PageName=GeneralBackground You are also guilty of being spiritually lazy or easily fooled because Che substitutes the Holy Spirit for Jesus. God cannot lie. He inhabits the praises of His people. That's why you still get your goosebumps when you visit. Che is not into the Word and if you were you'd realize that. If your a young believer get out quick and find a good Word based church. You are not serving God by Che milking you for every penny he can get out of you. Your just showing God that nothing is more important to you than Him and not your money. Che says from the pulpit that he needs up to $100k a month . $20,000 for grounds keeping alone. What a waste when so many good organizations like Gospel for Asia or Hope for Homeless Youth exist. | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.58.44 |
Che has no ministry to the lost. Just a constant story about, "if you buy it they will come" Meaning his legacy he will leave to his children so they can go on milking the new flock of suckers. Get off your lazy butts and start taking responsibility for the call of God on your life. You want to be part of something big so you stay around ambassador auditorium. Guess what? Che isn't it. Have you ever heard the verse that says in the KJV. " He gave them their request but sent leaness to their souls." In the next few days I will post many stories about all the back door foolery going on at HRC if anyone is interested. Did you know that board members are heavily pressured to give an extra $1,000 a month above their tithe to be a board member. I feel sorry that so many people feel insignificant that by aligning themselves with Che they hope they will be great Christians. Members should be glad that they are aligned with Jesus not Che. Hoping that maybe he will make you an honorary pastor. I truly feel sorry for you. Why else is the congregation still only 5 or 6 hundred people after so many years. It's because his anointing is for a little flock not a big flock. The calling is without repentance so Che gets to play his little game. Too bad his current ship of fools has to suffer. How many years will you waste on your walk with Che 3 , 5, or more years. Take care of your family. Provide for their future and invest in the people around you. You preach the Gospel in a bigger and better way. Complete your calling in Christ by taking personal responsibility for it. Che doesn't care about you. Che cares about being a big shot.By the way the market place Apostle doctrine that Che teaches is a false doctrine, It's just manipulation on their part. Masterfully executed I might say, " Fooled Ya!" You should really get a grip and open up your bible for yourself. Don't be lazy my friend. Give up the stories of gold dust prayer lines and tunnels of fire where you get the Holy Spirit. It's all a joke. What happened to Dutch Sheets a good preacher along with all the other people who were suppose to keep Che accountable in Che's words back in the late 90's? Che on Che's incorporation papers he put down a bunch of preachers who all live out of state, how convenient. He's had his little empire game all planned out from the very beginning.  | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.213.161.192 |
When anyone talks about Financial accountability @ HRC were you ever given the impression of uprightness. Maybe HIM because HRC would never make the grade. Even if HRC did it wouldn't excuse anyones behaviors. In the mean time you were deceived on purpose since HIM is a whole different enchilada! http://www.ecfa.org/?PageName=MemberProfile2&MemberID=15335 HIM is a front organization for financial accountability. HRC is a cash cow. Don't you think HRC would be registered if it could be? Ever heard of bait and switch tactics involved with fund raising? In 2003 HIM spent $649,506 on program services. $192,434 on General & Administrative expense and $14,150 on fund raising. Tell me how many 1st class plane tickets and fancy dinners for visiting preachers that went for while you, Sacrificed for the kingdom" I remember during the Billy Graham Crusade Che told everyone to take a neighbor out to dinner and spend a couple hundred dollars and then take them to the Crusade and they would be sure to accept Christ. Definetly an unusual strategy and to anyone who wasn't there you'd think an absurdity. Just shows you how badly brain washed the current members are.How much of that went into someones pocket to subsidize someone's supposed sacrifice for the kingdom and piety in front of the congregation? ? It sure didn't go for any ministry efforts in your neighborhood. At least not approaching that dollar amount. If you get fooled once shame on him. Twice..........you know the saying. Now that Che sees himself as a superstar don't count on him rubbing elbows with you unless he reads this post or you have lots of money not yet committed to his legacy. I think I'll visit this Sunday and give the readers the latest up to date report. I know plenty has happened since last month. Che I hope you read this and wake up but then again I don't think you want to after leading your sheep into this desert that you inhabit. You'd lose your self created legacy and your mausoleum. Just remember every man's works shall be tried by fire but your soul will be saved. I wonder if that's too high a price for Che in this world as he dances with the Holy Spirit and the precious lives of the saints with whom he toys with? I guess if Che's rebuke fron the Lord never comes then he will either suffer great loss since the least shall be the greatest in the kingdom or that dance with the Holy Spirit will result in Jesus saying depart from me I never knew you. I know Jesus didn't tell him to ordain and to serve that Homosexual that molested those young men. Remember those were Che Ahn's words that, " God told me to serve you". This is the guy who had his staff place a giant blue tarp on the stage at Mott Auditorium while visiting paid ministers poured oil over him and spontaneously declared (disgusting), " This man is an Apostle to the Nations." Well he's got 500 men women and children duped at any time during the year. We come and go as the curtain is lifted and we realize that we allowed ourselves to be deceived. | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.227.162.140 |
Here is a reprint from the life of Che Ahn and the people he's touched. Pasadena Star News Church, leader named in lawsuit By Marshall Allen , Staff Writer PASADENA -- Harvest Rock Church and its leader, Che Ahn, are being sued over their connection to a pastor accused of coercing men in his congregation into sexual relationships. The pastor, James Stalnaker, 28, has since resigned from Gateway City Center Church in West Hollywood. Stalnaker also is a defendant in the lawsuit. Stalnaker's former personal assistant identified in court records only as A.W., 22 filed the complaint last month in Los Angeles Superior Court. The lawsuit claims A.W. engaged in unwanted sexual contact, including oral sex and fondling, with Stalnaker from September until December. Stalnaker is accused in the complaint of using "mind-control and brain-washing techniques' to perform sex acts with at least 10 other young men at the church. The allegations against Stalnaker were never reported to the police, A.W. said in an interview. The complaint also names Pasadena nonprofit organization Harvest International Ministries as a defendant. Ahn is president of the organization, a network of about 1,200 churches and missionaries affiliated with Harvest Rock Church. Stalnaker was ordained by Harvest International Ministries and pastored Gateway City Center, a church in West Hollywood affiliated with the Pasadena organization. The lawsuit alleges he was under the formal control of Ahn, Harvest Rock and the nonprofit, so all are liable for the alleged harm Stalnaker caused, the complaint said. Stephen Reed, attorney for Ahn, Harvest Rock and the nonprofit, said the claims against his clients are "absolutely groundless.' Reed said his clients are concerned about A.W. and offered to settle the dispute through Christian mediation. But the plaintiff declined. Stalnaker's attorney, Bill Abrams, said "we categorically deny' every accusation in the lawsuit. But while lawyers for the defendants dismiss the lawsuit's allegations outright, the Pasadena nonprofit asked Stalnaker and other Gateway leaders to resign before closing the church, according to a Dec. 28 letter explaining the situation. Harvest International Ministries attorney Reed acknowledged the existence of the letter, but refused to comment on its specifics. The letter was written to former Gateway members, signed by Ahn and other leaders from the organization, and posted on the Internet. It said that seven men confessed to having sexual relationships with Stalnaker. Stalnaker was asked to resign Dec. 19, the letter said. "As a result of the entire pastoral leadership's resignation from ministry, and because at the very inception of the church plant there was deep immorality, dark deception, and lies, the church has closed down and will no longer use Gateway's name or building,' the letter said. In June 2002, Stalnaker and his wife, Ruth, founded Gateway City Center, an independent nonprofit organization under the Harvest International Ministries umbrella. The church was located in a storefront building on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood and its ministry included work with prostitutes, as well as the gay and homeless communities. Did you read from that last paragraph? " and because at the very inception of the church plant there was deep immorality, dark deception, and lies," Was self proclaimed Apostle Che Ahn following a kindred spirit? He saw something in Mr.Stalnaker possibly a kindred spirit to deceive, or was it the 'mind-control and brain-washing techniques' ? | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.227.162.140 |
What does Che Ahn offer these pastors? It certainly isn't oversight or leadership.If not in Santa Monica certainly not in Indonesia.He has no full time staff for HIM to speak of. Did that pastor in the 3rd world country think he was gonna get some American $$ if he joined the mighty Che Ahn. What is the purpose of having 1,200 churches mostly from third world countries under your umbrella? Nice speaking tool for Che. Maybe it's just a great tool for fund raising when you travel around the country on the backs of tithers telling them that they are saving the lost by donating to HIM or is it Che's slush fund.Shame on those pastors for not having a strong enough discipleship program to cultivate ministers of the Word from their own ranks. Is anyone learning anything? Che can do what he wants with the money he gets from HIM because he is not required by law to file a," FORM 990" Whereas you would be able to see what he does with the money funnelled into HIM. This guy has got the scam down good!http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?partner=guidestar&npoId=394962 (Message edited by exhrcmember on December 04, 2006) | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.227.163.210 |
Latest note. I just took a look at the Form 990 filed by HIM off of the Guidestar web site and it seems that Che has been paying himself and always another pastor a little over or a little under $50,000 a year for part time service. The other pastor currently would be Erik Tammaru. I looked at the 2002, 2003, and 2004 years. Right now I'm trying to figure out lines 25 & 26 from their 2004 form. Something about $141,606 for compensation of officers, directors,etc. line 26 says $130,769 other salaries and wages. I'll be back! This is all for HIM with 2 part time pastors. I guess HRC gets 2 part time pastors in return. Gee nice care for the flock of Christ at HRC. Or is that FLOCKED @ a fleeced church. Now in the spirit of fairness I have to be truthful. Unlike Che has been with the young souls whom God has given him. Becuase of his pride and abandonment of duty. You see if you read his book "Into the Fire." you will understand this Korean who once said from the pulpit, "I was a failure as a pastor and was going to go back to being a businessman." Not exactly the Jeremiah with the Word of God shut up in his bones. No, Che is not a self styled Kim Jong Il but you will understand his demeanor and the abandonment of his flock in the early years. These days he has to keep closer tabs to get the maximum donation value from his followers. All this from an Apostle as he has been declared to be by his subordinate lackys and recipients of his cash offerrings. Wagner Institue is on there for $9,600 along with Generals of intercession for $2,900.($900 more the prior year) Wagner and Jacobs were suppose to be some of the people that Che stated in the early days that they would reel him in if he got out of hand. See Jacobs-Generals of Intersession has plenty of their own followers. What would she need an offerring from HIM for to spread the Gospel. (hand washing?) Gee who would want to cut off the hand that feeds you. Jacobs might come around though since she got $3,800 in 2003. Wagner still got his $9,600. Anyway in 2004 HIM gave away $254,539 to 52 organizations or peoples; 8 of them were out of the country,Example: India or Africa 1 was in Canada and the rest in the USA. How nice. Hooray! HIM. Let's see now what does this say? OK! line 2 : Program service revenue, translation--Conference Revenue: $220,749. Seems that the books were prepared by Derek Thomas yet the roster shows Angele Deforest as Chief Financial Officer with no compensation. Interesting I wonder what that means. I bet Derek is a nice guy! Ok your thinking what's the point I'm making. If you go to HRC I think you should consider getting out of those 4 walls of grandeur and hit the streets. That's where the lost are. In your own back yard. The only way you can do it is to start having relationships with people. You like Che because you don't have to have one with him or anyone else much at church except your own chosen few that you associate with. God loves your neigbors, friends, familiy members, and co-workers. | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.227.163.210 |
Part 2 Start investing your time and your life with them and one day your going to realize that your making disciples. Just what your commanded to do. There is no revival outside of this. Just a clanging cymbal. Why do I say this? Because in the old days people knew how to be neighbors. They knew how to enter eachothers homes. Why can't the great prophets of today see this? Why can't they see the times and the seasons? because they only see in part. They only prophesy in part. Half the time I believe they have a lying spirit in the mouth of the Lord's prophets. Because God will give people their request but send leaness to there souls. As spoken of in Psalms regarding the incident in Numbers 11. Remember no matter how good an idea or a program, if there is anything you can see from God. There is always a better way. God is only limited by our willingness to do something that we've never done before. Anyone can witness on a plane or in a coffee shop. That doesn't make you an Apostle or anyone exalted or payroll worthy to the body of Christ. It just means you have a burden for the lost and a Spirit that crys ABBA Father! I may not see the whole picture but I know that the vision is blurred by the more comely parts of the body. Why else would the real Apostle Paul say, " I will not charge for the preaching of the Gospel lest I hinder it." The balance is lost in many congregations when leaders feel that they are Gods anointed to people who don't know their left hand from their right. All this from a group who are suppose to be brothers and sisters. Where is the elder who will serve the younger? | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.54.15 |
I've been thinking a little more and wondering how HIM recieved $880,221 in total revenues in 2004 and was only able to distribute $254,539 to people that Che Ahn chooses worthy. How good is the Apostles discernment? After ordaining a practicing homosexual I have my doubts. In any event I think the generous members of the body of Christ deserve better leadership. On another note Patti Wong is listed as the person who prepared the Form 990 for 2003 with no mention of any CFO listed.Patti Wong also is listed as the person who prepared the Form 990 for 2002 with no mention of Angele Deforest/pastor as Chief Financial Officer. Lots of room for discretionary spending. Interesting stuff to any HRC member currently under the spell of Che Ahn the Apostle to the Nations! It's time to leave the nest little chickidies. Flap your wings and take responsibility for the call that God has on your life. Awake oh sleeper and get off the goosebump wagon train. Your loved ones, friends, co-workers,and family members are dieing in their sins along with thousands of shut-ins,hospice patients, convelescent patients every year. While you feed on the muddy waters of your anointed pulpit sitter. Open your bible and feed yourself. Of course this message is for those hard heads whom I love. HRC has a regular flow of people out the back door after they've had a sufficient fleecing and a diet of undernourishing pablum. (Message edited by exhrcmember on December 05, 2006) | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.53.243 |
Has anyone seen the thread title. Fraud Benny Hinn style? There is an interesting link at the first post which talks about Christians who rake in millions thru manipulation of the masses. This is from a guy who is a big shot procecutor who has a 100% conviction rate.It reminded me of Che Ahn and how he's doing what tons of preachers are doing all across the country. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21282.html?1165339204 | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.227.174.125 |
I think that lots of believers are gullible to think that because someone is a pastor they can always be genuine or sincere & led by God. 1st off genuine or sincere means nothing if you are clueless or decidedly bent on not letting God completely have his way. It's called freedom of choice. 2nd of all look at how all the mighty have fallen. Pastors have a different rule book. They can get away with evil and not get slammed by the Holy Spirit. They operate in there natural gifts meaning the flesh much easier. The Holy Spirit may still show up because, He inhabits the praises of His people. He's also there to do a genuine work in those whos hearts are right towards God. The pastor had nothing to do with that. God is never dependent on a man to minister to His own. (KJV)Less comely parts of the body may have to rely solely on the move of God or the strength of the Lord to help them in public settings. (Message edited by exhrcmember on December 06, 2006) | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.49.233 |
LOOKS LIKE Che Ahn IS AT IT AGAIN. He is promoting himself on something called GODTV and he was also nice enough to provide his church membership address records to a company out of Texas. I'm sure for a cut of the profits. Something about skin care products and a chance to start a global business.Proceeds to help benefit medically fragile children. I got a free ticket to attend at HRC home, Ambassador Auditorium. How can people be so gullible? Well I guess when you have a $40,000 a month mortgage for your personal tax free corporation, and to keep your family on the payroll you have to huckster someone. Good thing he has goosebump hungry people to fleece. No excuse for those who have been sitting in the pews for so long and not maturing. Oh yes, that's right. Give til it hurts then I know I'm serving God. Since when do you work out your salvation by paying for it. Only in the land of Che Ahn. This isn't the first time he has done this. Won't be the last. All monies that go to HIM go to pay off Cindy Jacobs and Peter Wagner. The latter of the bunch is just as big a huckster as Che. | ||
| exhrcmember New member Username: exhrcmember Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.49.233 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOOKS LIKE Che Ahn IS AT IT AGAIN. He is promoting himself on something called GODTV and he was also nice enough to provide his church membership address records to a company out of Texas. I'm sure for a cut of the profits. Something about skin care products and a chance to start a global business.Proceeds to help benefit medically fragile children. I got a free ticket to attend at HRC home, Ambassador Auditorium. How can people be so gullible? Well I guess when you have a $40,000 a month mortgage for your personal tax free corporation, and to keep your family on the payroll you have to huckster someone. Good thing he has goosebump hungry people to fleece. No excuse for those who have been sitting in the pews for so long and not maturing. Oh yes, that's right. Give til it hurts then I know I'm serving God. Since when do you work out your salvation by paying for it. Only in the land of Che Ahn. This isn't the first time he has done this. Won't be the last. All monies that go to HIM go to pay off Cindy Jacobs and Peter Wagner. The latter of the bunch is just as big a huckster as Che. Check out HIM form 990 for yourself and see what he does with the money. http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?partner=guidestar&npoId=394962 Did I mention that HRC was rejected for financial accountability with the ecfa.org. Yet he can do a bold face lie once a month and tell us that HRC has it. I guess that is the basic bait and switch. HRC / HIM what's the difference to Che as long as he gets to be a big name. | ||
| accountable4everyword New member Username: accountable4everyword Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 76.171.20.84 |
Whoa! You must be joking! I'm a member of Harvest Rock Church and have just finished reading this entire bizarre page. Some of the 'inaccuracies' (to put it politely) here are so off the wall that they would be laughable, save for the fact that they're also potentially hurtful. Is this so called 'FactNet' website really where you want to go to 'find out the real dirt' on these dedicated servants of God? I'll start with just one example of how distorted this message string is. Lou Engle has been interceding for years to have partial birth abortion banned. He and many other believers have been faithfully praying in Washington, D.C., standing out in front of the Capitol Building, often in horrible weather, while gossipmongerers like you sit and speculate about the horrors of Harvest Rock (are you aware of the recent Supreme Court ruling banning it in the United States? Amazing how God is actually paying attention to these intercessors, when the Lord Himself apparently wouldn't even attend their church). Please! I KNOW these people, and have known them for years. I know what they do and don't do, and I'm shaking my head at the contents of this message thread. If you think I need to have my theology straightened out, google Regent College, Vancouver, British Columbia to see where I took a number of graduate level courses that helped to shape that theology. Listen up, people: I'm going to explain something to you and I'm going to keep it real simple so you'll understand. If you study history (I wouldn't recommend using the internet as your primary source) you'll learn that there have been many 'moves of God' throughout history (there's nothing cultic or scary about a 'move of God'. One example of which you all would surely approve would be the Azuza Street revival). Now, take a guess who, whenever there has been a new move of God, has historically persecuted those believers responding to what God is doing? Did you guess "the former one"? If so, you've got it! Now, go stand in front of a mirror and take a good, long look. Then do what I did: attend Harvest Rock on a regular basis, get to know the people there, become involved in one of the many ministries they support, and stop participating in this time-wasting "National Enquirer" brand of uneducated banter. | ||
| lifelover New member Username: lifelover Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.133.127.35 |
Wow!! Thanx for the commentaries regarding disillusionment at Harvest Rock. I attended Che’s church way way back…in the days where they rented a small hall at a Methodist church on Colorado Blvd. I know I’m going come off like I’m bashing Che, but my aim is to simply outline some spiritual errors I observed and highlight a pattern of systemic spiritual abuse. If anyone else can relate to my experiences, hold your head up high and trust God. Everything is under control and God knows the final outcome is all good. Back in the early days, Abundant Life Community Church (ALCC) presented themselves as 12 “missionaries” from the Washington D.C. area who had come to the land of “fruit and nuts” to usher forth a huge revival. They hit the universities and local hot-spots seeking converts and new members. My initial experience was exciting; they were somewhat personable, eagerly encouraged my attendance, and had great worship. I enjoyed their vision and their exuberance for Christ. I stayed with that church for 7 years. In time, I began the roller-coaster ride implicit in maturing in Christ. I was a periodic alcoholic and I was married to a woman who suffered from mental illness. I had three small children, and was simply ill-equipped to meet the demands of everyday life. I threw myself into as much church as I could because it helped me cope. Eventually I learned that something stunk, but I couldn’t quite identify the source of that stink. Let me tell you a few of my personal experiences. I went on evangelism excursions a few times with the church. I remember one time I street-preached at the beach and thought I did a good job, but Lou Engle told me I had a lot to learn, and to be quiet next time. (I wonder what would have happened if he had just said “Good going!!”). One time Winky Pratney gave a 3-day seminar on evangelism, and I wanted to thank him afterwards. I waited for him to finish talking to people, but before I could approach him, Che barged up and said to him saying “This is _ _ _, he can’t stay off the bottle.” (I wonder if shaming me was a ploy to help me, or if Che was embarrassed of me). I remember standing for prayer during numerous alter calls, with tears running down my face, being passed up as hands were being laid on people all around me. Customarily, being the last one to be prayed for, I would look at these “mighty intercessors” straight in the eyes to see if they really believed the obligatory prayer they were offering on my behalf. (I wonder, was it then that I believed the stink that stunk was me?) One time I went to Che’s house to pick up something someone had left for me, and saw him swimming in his pool. I was pleasantly surprised, and kind of hoped we might exchange small talk. Che had other ideas, telling me he didn’t have the energy to talk to everyone, and that his pool was where he went when he wanted to get away from everything. In other words, get lost!!! (I wonder what would have happened if he had just said, “Hi!! How have you been?” By then, I was becoming convinced I was indeed the source of that stinky stink). If it wasn’t so embarrassing, I would describe the 5 hour exorcism I once had with spiritual leaders in the church. Thank God the debacle finally ended when one of the “spiritual warriors” declared that the demons would only leave if I went on a 40 day fast. | ||
| lifelover New member Username: lifelover Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.133.127.35 |
continued... Once I arranged an hour long counseling session with Che in his office. I discussed the stresses in my life, while Che looked as his watch every 5 minutes. He was obviously perturbed at my being there, but he may have felt obligated given I was putting fat tithe checks in the basket every week. You see, all of this was so weird. The people attracted to ALCC were mostly young and ambitious, and they had a sense of spiritual superiority about them. Here I was, a struggling young man, learning how to be a Christian, being scorned and rejected while I tried my best. Years later I realized it was text-book spiritual abuse. I know now that those who are vulnerable and trusting of those who profess to be spiritual mentors have the right to expect to be loved unconditionally. How does one contribute to another’s spiritual demise, by judging him or her as insignificant, inherently flawed, or being outside the realm of any available help. Well, I kept attending and in time ALCC grew from a tiny little group to a church of almost a thousand members. How did it grow? Well, the church moved up to the Mott Auditorium located on the Center for World Missions campus. There were tons of young missionaries zealous to reach the world for Christ. Che expertly exploited the opportunity by announcing ALCC had a heart to do the same. Soon the place was packed, and the air was filled with excitement. I attended the prayer groups, and watched who got elevated to positions of prominence. It was all about ego, with Che playing the part of the master manipulator. He had everyone believing there was no greater cause than to reach the world for Christ.”….“And YOU are part of it!!” I heard many of the missionary students that came into Che’s fellowship from the Center of World Missions declare that the sole reason they were in Pasadena was to help Che fulfill his vision. Interestingly enough, one of these couples were leaders of the home group I attended, and this family was sent off to the Phillipines to start a new church under Che’s “leadership”. They lasted less than a year. This couple later told me that People of Destiny (ALCC was under their “covering” at that time) refused to shell out the money to support them, even though $100,000 had been pledged directly for their support. They were supposed to hustle cash out of the poor Filipinos in order to finance their stay there. Unfortunately, this was told to them after they had arrived on the mission field. They couldn’t pull it off and came back to Pasadena with their tails between their legs. When I talked to them they felt extremely betrayed. Their marriage split up shortly afterwards, and I don’t think they ever recovered. The only explanation I ever heard was that they harbored “hidden rebellion” in their hearts, and were unfit to do God’s work. After that, one-by-one many of those missionary students from the Center started to leave Abundant Life. I thought it odd. Why would somebody pledge their heart and soul, declare their involvement to be “God’s will”, and then do an about-face and drop the project like a hot potato? Most likely because they smelled something stinky. I wonder how those two are doing today. | ||
| lifelover New member Username: lifelover Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.133.127.35 |
In time, I attended church less often and started to investigate recovery support groups. I learned how to stay sober and how to deal with a dysfunctional marriage. I would pop back into Mott Auditorium from time-to-time to see how things were going. Sometimes I just wanted to worship God. There were always new faces up on the stage; new assistant pastors, new cell group leaders, new worship team members, new this-person, new that-person. There would often be merchandising from the podium, with this person selling this CD or that person selling that teaching series. The message was generally targeted toward ushering in the big revival that was going to happen soon. Year after year, this started to sound like a broken record. Poor Lou, he would get up to the podium and bounce and rock, talking about the need for prayer and preparation. We did fun stuff like little Jericho marches around the auditorium, and big Jericho marches around Pasadena. (My wife broke her ankle on one of these marches, tripping on a large cable someone had laid across the aisle. I asked for the church’s insurance carrier but never got a response). Sometimes I would pop into the 24 hour intercessory prayer room to check it out. Two or three people would be there grunting and moaning, waving their hands around like shaman. Other times the intercessors would be overcome with burden and fall asleep. Most telling, I didn’t see any real growth. Attendance was hardly overwhelming and most of the people were students and young couples. Certainly there were not a whole lot of seasoned believers. Sometime along here I think the “revival” started. That is what they called that whole “hiccup” and “laughing” thing. I hate to sound sacrilegious, but it was better than the Barnum and Bailey Circus. Someone would get up to the microphone, hiccup or gulp spasmodically, and every was convinced God Himself was in our midst. People in the audience would start to convulse as if they were having seizures, with their arms or legs flailing uncontrollably. Others would start to shriek; others would whine or moan loudly. There were a few folks at the podium that seemed to have an extra amount of anointing, and when they started to hiccup or gulp, there bodies would double over like they were getting kicked by a donkey or something. Sometimes it would take 15 minutes for them to finish saying something simple like “God is Love”. Che would declare His servants had been faithful; that the Holy Spirit had finally fallen; and that we should prepare ourselves for the monster harvest that was to come. | ||
| lifelover New member Username: lifelover Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.133.127.35 |
continued..... In reality though, I wished I could have sold tickets to those services. It was a spectacle beyond compare. By this time, I had received my M.S. in psychology, and I was totally hip to the mechanics of trance-induction, the power of suggestion, and the influence of group think. What they were calling a “movement of the Holy Spirit” was far from that and could be easily explained with a few psychological constructs. It looked like to me Che got duped pretty good by all of it. His ego was huge, and people were attending in droves to get a “hit” of that “Holy Ghost Revival”. He got tons of recognition from around the country, and you know he made sure he promoted himself as the leader responsible for this great wave of God. The money must have flowed in like milk-and-honey. I can’t believe anyone worth their spiritual salt would equate such bizarre displays of behavior with an actual move of the Holy Spirit. How such weird behavior could be viewed as anything but weird was beyond me. Whats more, from those days on I saw Che as a man seriously ill-equipped to function in a position of international church leadership (his general presentation of himself). I figured he could use a long sabbatical to reassess his take on that one. Anyone familiar with that Kansas City stuff or Toronto stuff or Pensacola stuff or British Columbia stuff will tell you the stink stunk. Many in Christendom have regarded these “movements” as simple spiritual errors, others denounce them more strongly as displays of overt heresy. There are a number of potential explanations for such spiritual debacles, but the simplest explanation was that in each instance people were honestly mistaken. In most of these cases, the ministers responsible for these artificial moves of the Holy Spirit opened themselves up to scorn and humiliation. In the Harvest Rock fiasco, Che was smart enough to not let that happen though. He has a keen sense to know how to escape accountability. He can hide behind his credentials, and the endorsements of other well established ministers. Plus, don’t forget that congregations susceptible to this type of error are generally comprised of those more prone to be gullible. Whatever explanation offered to them was probably absorbed without question. The fact is, I doubt if anyone has the gumption to question Che. I know from my personal experience with him, that Che presents himself as any successful leader in the secular world would; politely impersonal, self-absorbed, strategically manipulative, covertly inaccessible, shrewdly self-serving. Those are not the kind of character traits that are easily addressed in those who wear the mantle of “God’s anointed”. We have been taught not to question Christian leadership, and to honor and submit to them. What a crock. Those days should be long gone by now. If someone was to question Che about his narcissistic tendencies, I’m sure he would walk away unscathed. I doubt if he could ever admit to himself that it is all about himself. That is the Che I knew anyway. | ||
| lifelover New member Username: lifelover Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.133.127.35 |
continued.... Well, I hope my tone does not convey unforgiveness and resentment. I hope I do not appear wounded. I think what I learned, I learned well. Narcissism is alive and well in the church, unchecked but fully disguised. Che is not alone; lots of preachers use the pulpit as a means of propagating their own agenda. Exploiting a ministry and a congregation for one’s own selfish ambition is a simple human mistake. It is easy to forgive someone for being human. It is not easy to outline evidence documenting systematic patterns of spiritual ignorance and spiritual abuse. You know, I once wrote a 3 page letter to Che and Lou detailing slights I experienced and certain hypocrisies I observed when I attended Harvest Rock. I asked them to contact me so I could put the matter to rest. I figured it to be no big deal, but they never got back to me. Hmmm, did someone say unaccountable? Anyway, I heard that Lou moved on to fight battles on the abortion front. I wish him well. I would like to visit the Ambassador some day, and see how Che is doing. I hope he reads this and remembers who I am so I can convey my thoughts directly to him. That would be cool. I will print out how that conversation went if he decides to do so. I think there is enough information here for him to remember who I am. In any case, I wish him well. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1797 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
Is there no wonder that people don't trust Charismatics and Pentecostals when you have a person as corrupt as Che? This is just the type of person that give us a bad name. To give everybody an update. My freinds who invited me to this church got divorced. The wife lives in Spain and the 2 kids that she pulled from their marriage need prayer. They got in a horrible car accident and are in intensive care. Watch out for these people. Put on the full armor of God when you visit a church like this. I really felt religious and demons all around me when I was there. | ||
| firstgarden Intermediate Member Username: firstgarden Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
I was very much involved with Abundant Life and Harvest Rock. I was also in fellowship with one of their current pastors for seven years. I know them extremely well. Some of the observations here are very valid. If you experienced hurt in one of these ministries, or in a ministry like these, your complaints are valid. I have also been involved in other hurtful ministries. The patterns/dynamics are quite common wherein spiritual authority is taken into the flesh, and authoritarian elitism and opportunism flies free at virtually every whim. I would like to encourage all who pass this way to forgive freely, as I believe you have. And just trust that the Lord will judge with greater severity those who call themselves teachers. I also encourage you to hate the sin and excesses and avoid too much focus on individuals. Life is full of mixture in this world, and we do have this treasure in earthen vessels. By nature, these ministries are experimental, controversial, extrabiblical, feed on sensation, are deeply exploitive of submission and tend powerfully towards fear of man and trappings of legalism. These are not your quiet, local churches which humbly serve the community. (By the way, is it biblical to have a ministry of harvesting without farming? Think about it.) As such, they tend, all the more, to wildly amplify and expose the sins of the leaders who start them. Whenever groups are restoration-oriented, by nature, they tend to become exclusivistic. (Highly true of early ALCC). And wherever high and holy standards are exalted, or ANYTHING for that matter OTHER THAN the person of Jesus Christ, HE subtely gets pushed out of the center. Then most of the problems you see come as a result. It inevitably becomes a man-centered endeavor. Add to this the peculiar traits of an Asian leader who comes from a culture that largely values people not for their inherent value, but judges them by their level of education, outward success and affluence, and seeks to surround themselves ONLY with the company of "spiritual" assets, not liabilities. (See how the insidious, anti-biblical spirit of elitism creeps in here, instead of that of true servanthood?) We are no longer talking about "churches" here, in the biblical sense, but rather, parachurch agencies that are little more than a self-centered arm or expression of the LEADER'S personal giftings. Yet, in our careful observations, let us be merciful, remembering our own great need for mercy. God will deal with them. Blessings! (Message edited by firstgarden on December 23, 2007) |
