| Author | Message | ||
     chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
I had not heard anything of the Holy Ghost Bartender, or his laughing revivals for several years and was hoping that was another 'fad' that would run its course and go far, far away. Instead, I recently read that 'Brother Rodney' and his ministry team would be conducting meetings in the St. Louis area this week. Please, why would anyone allow this man in a pulpit and over sheep that HE ( the pastor) should be guarding? Since the past five years or so, has anything about Rodney's meetings changed? Has he repented and renounced the old damaging 'demonstrations'? Or does he still preceed with his almost voodoo like meetings? Back then when we visited such a meeting, there was major chaos, hour or more of endless singing one chorus, alert abuptly to teach a long sermon on giving and taking the offering, then back to the pulpit to open the bible to Acts 2....somehow no one ever was able to read beyond that. They would become zombie looking, unable to speak for long periods of time, or begin laughing calling others out of pews and 'prophecying' over them - then blowing them- having them fall backwards to the arms of a ready catcher. Meetings were loud, unorderly, shouting, whistling, making animal noises and gestures, running around. Some people sat dazed in a trance like position for hours. | ||
| chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
(continued) many 'well known leaders' were sighted in this state during this period of time. I watched, prayed and thought 'who am I that I shouldn't follow the Holy Spirit and my leaders, etc. ) but I felt the unholiness and flagrant blasphemy at our Great God. Eventually we had to withdraw and renounce our every part of it. I heard much of the same from many people during this season, about 10-15 yrs. ago. Please, if you've attended this weeks meetings at Life Christian Church or talked with some one who has, let us know what is now happening. Has RHB repented? Are things progressively worse? Tell of what you've seen and heard. So many sheep fell during that time, I am appalled to hear he has actually been invited back. Many 'well known leaders' were sighted in this state during this period of time. I watched, prayed and thought 'who am I that I shouldn't follow the Holy Spirit and my leaders, etc. ) but I felt the unholiness and flagrant blasphemy at our Great God. Eventually we had to withdraw and renounce our every part of it. I heard much of the same from many people during this season, about 10-15 yrs. ago. Please, if you've attended this weeks meetings at Life Christian Church or talked with some one who has, let us know what is now happening. Has RHB repented? Are things progressively worse? Tell of what you've seen and heard. So many sheep fell during that time, I am appalled to hear he has actually been invited back. The word tells us to 'warn and exhort' them, for there will come a time when people will run here and there, looking and learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...having eyes that cannot see and itching ears. I believe we have come to this time. I post this with much prayer, for I do not want to be devisive, however I believe if we 'the body of Christ' does not stand up against this heresay, no one will. How very grieved this must be to the Holy Spirit and what a mockery of the sacredness of our Holy God of fear and trembling and our precious Saviour who gave Himself in such passion that we might have life abundantly and live TRUTH. This example of a ministry is a perfect example of the state of the so called church of today. Does it not sound so familiar with the scriptures that talk of the end times when men's hearts will be cold, and men will become lovers of pleasure, not God. They will want fun, money, fame, but oh forgive us Father, let us who see not turn our eyes on these things, but speak truth with love pulling some from the very fire of hell if so neccessary. These indeed, seem to be spots on your love feasts, they are contrived by the enemy to mock the very truth and sanctification of the Lord. Unfortunately the word warns us that these 'false' teachers will arise out from among us, deceiving and being decived. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.62.169.222 |
M(r)(s). chloe: Why? Simply, he makes a lot of money for pentecostalism. | ||
| chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
tatm...simply because he makes a lot of money doesn't seem to cover it all. He has now a school and is converting young people to his 'type' of ministry. PLEASE give me some hope and help. You don't know what we've been through at the doings of this man's 'ministry'. I forgive...As much as I possibly can forgive, but will no one but me speak out to warn others? This man's teachings destroyed two zeolous young believers, their families and mutilated our family. Please tell me how you would handle this? I know we must and are moving on. We fogive but the reminder of the devestation is in front of us daily. God can and does make all things turn out well to those who believe in Him and are the called according to his purpose. Do we just shut up? Can we stand idoly by while we watch another young man go the same route? Please, my brother, give me some mercy and gracious wisdom; I am bleeding and so need a brother or sister to lift me up. Yes, the MONEY...how about the POWER, LUST, DECEIT, etc? Thank you for hearing me. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 319 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). chloe: The things you mention are certainly present. However, it is the money that pays those bills. Consider yourself, which is most pleasing in your eyes? Being an honest person making $10.00 to $20.00 an hour in some dead end factory job? Or being a damnable fraud like Joyce Meyers and knocking down $100 million a year? How much filth can you buy on a $500 a week paycheck? How about $100 million a year? Can you read? Do you own a Bible? Had you taken the time to read that Bible in the first place, you would not have fallen sucker to pentecostalism. You were hoping to play God like a slot machine, and lost. Pity, not on my dime. I deal with folks like yourself every day. Quit pointing your finger at everyone else and point that finger at yourself. Deal with yourself, then you can deal with pentecostalism. Quoting: "gracious wisdom" End quote. GOYA! G et O ff Y our A rearend! | ||
| chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
My 'gracious friend'...thanks for your kind words. I was, alas, born into a family that was strict pentecostal and made to go to church every time the door opened. Now that I'm grown, I've made my choice. I saw what HELL I went thru and would consider it a kindness to anyone who would have held out a warning or a hand for me. No one did. But God faithfully heard my cries. I'm glad I didn't have to wait for a merciful brother like you. Forgive me for asking. | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 69.30.157.124 |
chloe, "They would become zombie looking, unable to speak for long periods of time, or begin laughing calling others out of pews and 'prophecying' over them - then blowing them- having them fall backwards to the arms of a ready catcher. Meetings were loud, unorderly, shouting, whistling, making animal noises and gestures, running around. Some people sat dazed in a trance like position for hours." Let me ask you this. How many times did you witness the above before you said enough is enough? The above sounds like utter confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Animal noises?? I believe the first time I heard that, I would be dialing animal control or something or dialing an exorcist. Do you also realize that people have literally been injured when falling backwards, slain in the spirit I believe it's called? Does that sound like God is in control? Think about it. If God were in control, why would anyone need a catcher when they fall backwards? Do a simple search in the Scriptures for 'backward'. It's usually not a good thing. One last question. Did any of the above happen to you also or were you just merely a witness to it? | ||
| chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
Okay, I admit I 'grew up' in a cult. But like any other child, I knew only what I was taught. Now the pentecostal church I was in did not participate in such things as described at RHB meetings. When RHB came, I had already seen enough and read enough of the word to 'work out my own salvation with fear and trembling' and I did not participate in such things. I merely mentioned this because this man is traveling, making converts, etc. and I wanted to warn others. I feel somewhat attacked here because I have spoken out. Yes, reading the 'beliefs' of a cult is deceitfully evident to one who knows better. What I was simply trying to state is when you are in that envirnment, grown up in it or 'made a convert' - it is no different than any other cult. There are sheep that need a hand, they need to see truth printed. I NEVER did. Had I had a board such as this to read and reason my doubts and went to the word, instead of leaders, my life would have been spared much grief. Now that I study my bible (something we were never encouraged to do in that 'religion'...in fact we were taught not to read Revelation for it would be harmful). They ruled us with fear, and yes, I am ashamed to admit - I fell for it. But I am out now. I thank God with every atom of my being, BUT I cannot simply forget those who are still there, still blinded, still deceived. Aren't we called to show the light? And if I 'attack' them, they will run faster to their 'leaders'....they need to hear TRUTH and to learn to go to their SAVIOR. | ||
| oneway Intermediate Member Username: oneway Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 69.30.157.124 |
"I feel somewhat attacked here because I have spoken out." I hope I didn't make you feel that way. My intentions were not to attack you but to simply use your testimony to show others who might be in the same situation. You pretty much stated you had enough courage and sense to get out, others may not have enough courage and sense. Your testimony was the right thing to do, and I for one am not judging you or condemning you whatsoever. Please don't feel that I am. We have got to be concerned about others, right? I sense from your testimony that you're concerned about others who have and who might fall victim to this deception. So how are others to come to what you now understand? They have to be warned. Not all will listen tho. Christ warns of many deceptions in the last days, but it seems very few are listening. It's quite possible that the Lord is going to use you to bring souls out of the deception, back unto him. I am in no way saying all penecostalism is deceptive, but what you experienced from your testimony was. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 320 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). Oneway: All of pentecostalism is a cult. The claim, "OH! They wouldn't let me read the Bible!" Is a call for pity, not sympathy. Had this person spend one tenth as much time studying the word of God as they spend learning to surf the net, (s)he would have known better. I spend a coupla weekends a month passing out Bibles in front of pentecostal churches. I have also spend time behind bars ministering to immates. Until a person accepts their responsibility, there can be not rehabilitation. | ||
| chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
Oneway, thank you for your comments; I appreciate them and am glad you realize where I was coming from. I am not 'surfing the web' to argue, debate, nor spread strife, I only wanted to warn others in my area about Rodney Howard-Browne. I have been out of any of that for years now, and thank God, He opened my eyes as I asked for truth. He will do so with anyone who sincerely asks. I will not pursue this subject any longer. Mr. apostle must remember that we all are admonished to be careful how we stand lest we fall...for all of us are capable of falling for deceit; The NT is filled with many such warnings. You are right in the fact that many will not listen, but for the few that may, let me always be willing to give an answer for the truth that set me free. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 322 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Bravo! Bravo!! hehehe | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
To everyone, Look at the following website, http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/howard-browne.html Please also look at the following video which I believe that exposes unbiblical manifestations, seducing spirits and doctrines of demons taught by blind and spiritually dead leaders. Title: TEXE MARRS The Blind & The Dead (ale... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1309655344938122063 | ||
| cybermom New member Username: cybermom Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 |
chloe I have come from a similar background, and my "church" became very involved in all the "river" stuff also. My family and I were very uncomfortable with it all, and after much Bible reading, praying, and reasoning, we left, and just at the right time, too. They have gotten much worse, and can hardly be called Christian anymore because of their aberrant beliefs and practices. I for one support what you are saying and completely understand your desire to warn others. There are many in the church today who are looking for an "experience" with God, rather than God Himself, and it's becoming dangerous to their spiritual lives. I understand, and am proud of your courage to speak out, esp in the face of opposition here. cybermom | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I attend Rodney Howard Browne's church here in Tampa. I first experienced Holy Laughter in 1995, so I have been "in the River" for over 10 years. I have never made an animal sound, have never been wounded being slayed in the Spirit, and can assure you that I have a sound mind, sound doctrine, and rejoice that God has touched me with His joy. I don't know what your personal experiences are, but I haven't had one negative experience with this renewal. I think a lot of people write things, that they have never experienced first hand, and therefore, may not be the best authority on the subject. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Let me clarify what I mean by experience first hand, Just watching a revival, or sitting in a meeting as a spectator, is not experiencing it first hand. My life changed when I became baptized in the Holy Spirit. In fact, the first thing that changed, I stopped cheating on my husband. How is that for a testimony? I had grown up sexually abused, and had a history of not being faithful to my husband, even though I was "saved". After I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, and yes, Holy Laughter was a part of it, I lost all desire for those sins that had me bound. You can only judge a revival, a renewal, or a "manifestation" by the fruit. I can only speak for my own fruit, and I know that the fruit is and has been good. No one has limited my ability to read the Bible, think for myself, or make my own "critical" judgments. I'm on this board, aren't I? My point is, unless you've experienced holy laughter, you may not have enough knowledge of the subject. However, if you already have concluded that it isn't from God, then you won't ever experience it. Joy is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Holy Laughter is an expression of joy. | ||
| chloe New member Username: chloe Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.132.117.145 |
homesheart, I do not doubt that there is joy and laughter in the gifts of God. I have experienced 'holy laughter'. I thought it was great, at first. I couldn't wait to have a chance to be in the meetings. But as time went on I began to see other things. Like a lady who always walked in late and went to the front row. She was stone sober til she laid her purse on the pew and stood to begin singing and all of a sudden she couldn't stand anymore, or she began laughing and falling all over the place. I also saw a woman acting in a similar way, jumping and falling and laughing, finally falling onto the lap of a man next to her (he was married to someone else). She jumped up and down and was all over him like a drunk. He was extremely embarrassed. The meetings became very methodic. The praise and worship which consisted of repeating the same verses, till people's minds were 'free'...God doesn't tell us to not think. He said we have the mind of Christ. He is also not the author of confusion. Soon after the hr. or longer praise service, somehow everyone sobered up for a long teaching on giving...this always managed to fit in. After that it could go any way. Perhaps a few scriptures, dueling tongues, calling people out and 'zapping' them, all the while the crowd was laughing hysterically; I know of someone who had an entire row of unbelievers with her. They laughed til they cried, but their lives were not changed. They are still not Christians; in fact, they mock the church. I began to question the Lord, study the word (by then I was so hungry for the word) for that entire season of years we hardly had any teaching of the word. When I realized where I had allowed myself to go, I renounced what I had been involved in, repented in tears and sorrow to our holy God. I could never be part of that again. Please take time to study and read where some of those rituals actually are practiced in the pagan 'religions'. You could not convince me now that what I saw was the Holy Spirit's movement nor a revival. It was a deception from the father of lies, and its fruit was much destruction in lives of many. I know first hand of several divorces that took place because people were given false prophecies. There became breaches because one spouse wanted 'in the river' the other wanted nothing to do with it. Families broke up. The word wasn't taught, nor was there any sound counsel. It was all 'emotions, feelings, and giving way to the pleasures of the flesh'. It did not bring any glory or honor to God. In fact, people were told 'don't pray'...and that I quote from RHB, he wanted them not praying as he laid hands on them. I believe this man is very decived at best, and my hope and prayer is he is changing since I was involved in his meetings about ten years ago. I admire what cybermom says about people wanting to 'experience' God; what if you never 'felt' anything ever again? would you still have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ filled with joy in the Holy Spirit? That is all fluff; the true joy in knowing Christ personally and having a true relationship with Him is deep and satisfying and will carry you through anything you must walk through in this life. I admit I know nothing of RHB's church nor his services now; please write and tell me he has repented and renounced the evil he was spreading. Until I know that, I will always be skeptical and warn anyone I can about his ways. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Who was leading these meetings you were at, because I can guarantee it wasn't Rodney Howard Browne. Just because a woman is carrying on in a service doesn't mean that God wasn't moving. If that were the case, any church that had a "loose" woman in it should be discredited! Rodney Howard Browne has not been spreading evil. He preaches the Bible, he and his wife lost their daughter to cystic fibrosis when she was 18 years old on Christmas morning. She died in Rodney's arms. This is not a man who is "pretending" to have joy. This is a man who truly has "the joy of the Lord as his strength." You are making a lot of presumptions, based on conversations that obviously do not include people who have good fruit. I do not go to church for anything but one purpose. To worship Jesus Christ. If I was to make a choice between worshipping Jesus Christ or have my head cut off by extremist muslims (which I believe will be the tool used during the tribulation) I will have my head cut off. To be separate from the body is to be present with the Lord. I know who Jesus is. However, my life is full of miracles. Unfortuantely, many people live their lives without ever experiencing one. You can not convince someone that God still performs miracles unless you experience one yourself. If someone says they are saved, and has no testimony of the amazing transforming power of God, I wonder how they can even believe that they are really saved? How can someone say they are a Christian and have no evidence of the power of God in their life. Of course, the first evidence should be a changed life. However, if God has the power to change your life, He has the power to touch it, transform it, heal it, and you will experience it. When I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was evidenced by me speaking in tongues, everything about me changed. Radically, drastically, and all for God's glory. Sin was purged out of me, and I had a desire to OBEY God because I loved Him. If obeying God isn't fruit, then I don't know what is. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Also, for the record, Pastor Rodney Howard Browne doesn't go around "giving words" like so many other people do. That really isn't part of church at The River. In fact, The River focuses on evangelism. They have numerous teams that go into the cities and basically share the gospel. There is a copy of the "soul winning script" on the website. You might be amazed how Biblically sound Pastor Rodney Howard Browne is. He shouldn't be blamed for what other people are doing. That isn't his ministry at all. If someone else is in revival and doing things in error, how is that Rodney Howard Browne's fault? | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
These manifestations are not new to revival. Many people mistakingly think they are. John Wesley reports having experienced Holy Laughter, and when John Wesley was talking with George Whitefield, he asked his opinion on what he thought about the manifestations people experienced when they preached on the Holy Spirit. At first, Whitefield was against it, until he preached on the Holy Spirit later that night and four people were slain in the Spirit at the same time. They reported shaking, trances, etc. Yet John Wesley and Whitefield came to the conclusion that God was at work. These manifestations are not new at all. And there isn't much of an argument to say that it is not "biblical" because all throughout the Bible, people who were clearly filled with God were accused of doing the devil's work, including Jesus Himself. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 360 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). homesheart: Quoting: "John Wesley reports having experienced Holy Laughter, and when John Wesley was talking with George Whitefield, he asked his opinion on what he thought about the manifestations people experienced when they preached on the Holy Spirit. At first, Whitefield was against it, until he preached on the Holy Spirit later that night and four people were slain in the Spirit at the same time. They reported shaking, trances, etc. Yet John Wesley and Whitefield came to the conclusion that God was at work." End quote. I own all of Wesley's writings. Please provide an exact point of reference for the false material you are spreading. I can provide Wesley's sermon/thesis denying a second work of the Holy Spirit. ps and by the by, charism has been practiced by virtually all religions from the beginning of time. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Here is an excerpt from, "The Journals of John Wesley" Chapter 3 Talks with Whitefield Friday, July 6.—In the afternoon I was with Mr. Whitefield, just come from London, with whom I went to Baptist Mills, where he preached concerning ‘the Holy Ghost, which all who believe are to receive’; not without a just, though severe, censure of those who preach as if there were no Holy Ghost. Saturday, 7.—I had an opportunity to talk with him of those outward signs which had so often accompanied the inward work of God. I found his objections were chiefly grounded on gross misrepresentations of matter of fact. But the next day he had an opportunity of informing himself better: for no sooner had he begun (in the application of his sermon) to invite all sinners to believe in Christ, than four persons sank down close to him, almost in the same moment. One of them lay without either sense or motion. A second trembled exceedingly. The third had strong convulsions all over his body, but made no noise unless by groans. The fourth, equally convulsed, called upon God with strong cries and tears. From this time, I trust, we shall all suffer God to carry on His own work in the way that pleaseth Him. You can read the Works of both John Wesley and George Whitefiled online at CCEL | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Ok, Here is Journal of John Wesley, Chapter 12: Extraordinary Trances Extraordinary Trances Monday, 6 (Everton).--I talked largely with Ann Thorn and two others, who had been several times in trances. What they all agreed in was 1) that when they went away, as they termed it, it was always at the time they were fullest of the love of God; 2) that it came upon them in a moment, without any previous notice and took away all their senses and strength; 3) that there were some exceptions, but in general, from that moment, they were in another world, knowing nothing of what was done or said by all that were round about them. About five in the afternoon I heard them singing hymns. Soon after, Mr. B. came up and told me Alice Miller (fifteen years old) had fallen into a trance. I went down immediately and found her sitting on a stool and leaning against the wall, with her eyes open and fixed upward. I made a motion as if going to strike, but they continued immovable. Her face showed an unspeakable mixture of reverence and love, while silent tears stole down her cheeks. Her lips were a little open, and sometimes moved; but not enough to cause any sound. I do not know whether I ever saw a human face look so beautiful; sometimes it was covered with a smile, as from joy, mixing with love and reverence; but the tears fell still though not so fast. Her pulse was quite regular. In about half an hour I observed her countenance change into the form of fear, pity, and distress; then she burst into a flood of tears and cried out, "Dear Lord; they will be damned! They will all be damnedl" But in about five minutes her smiles returned, and only love and joy appeared in her face. About half an hour after six, I observed distress take place again; and soon after she wept bitterly and cried out, "Dear Lord, they will go to hell! The world will go to hell!" Soon after, she said, "Cry aloud! Spare not!" And in a few moments her look was composed again and spoke a mixture of reverence, joy, and love. Then she said aloud, "Give God the glory." About seven her senses returned. I asked, "Where have you been?"--"I have been with my Saviour." "In heaven, or on earth?"--"I cannot tell; but I was in glory." "Why then did you cry?"--"Not for myself, but for the world; for I saw they were on the brink of hell." "Whom did you desire to give the glory to God?"--"Ministers that cry aloud to the world; else they will be proud; and then God will leave them, and they will lose their own souls. | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
I said that was chapter 12, but it is chapter 11, sorry. I am getting more for you from the Journal of John Wesley. If you have it, you should read it. He records all of the manifestations that are drawing controversy today. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 361 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). homesheart: To begin with John Wesley's Journals are divided into books or volumnes not chapters. Now try narrowing your claim a little closer, please. ps and by the by, I am rich and would love to share that wealth with you. Seriously! | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.150.108 |
Should we assume then that Paul/Peters etc. charism was pagan as well. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 362 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). homesheart: To begin with John Wesley's Journals are divided into books or volumnes not chapters. Now try narrowing your claim a little closer, please. ps and by the by, I am rich and would love to share that wealth with you. Seriously! | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Here is a direct link to chapter 3 at the CCEL http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/journal.vi.iii.vii.html Here is the chapter on Extraordinary Trances http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/journal.vi.xi.xvii.html | ||
| homesheart New member Username: homesheart Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Here is a direct link to chapter 3 at the CCEL http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/journal.vi.iii.vii.html Here is the chapter on Extraordinary Trances http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/journal.vi.xi.xvii.html | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Sorry for the double post, it won't let me delete it. | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.150.202 |
Very very interesting! Nothing like solid evidence to back up your opinion. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 363 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). homesheart: Those are wonderful articles. Unfortunately, they don't support your claims. Could you please narrow the search? Quoting: "John Wesley reports having experienced Holy Laughter, and when John Wesley was talking with George Whitefield, he asked his opinion on what he thought about the manifestations people experienced when they preached on the Holy Spirit. At first, Whitefield was against it, until he preached on the Holy Spirit later that night and four people were slain in the Spirit at the same time. They reported shaking, trances, etc. Yet John Wesley and Whitefield came to the conclusion that God was at work." End quote. Your support must include all or at least a good part of the above quote. | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
First, I want to post this chapter on Revivals and Sensationalism by D.L. Moody, who states that he would rather have sensationalism in a revival then one without it. http://books.google.com/books?id=YFUAAAAAMAAJ&dq=moodys+latest+sermons&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=l6A6ibrba9&sig=F9cGbPI1hDTnsCd0BIahGmyo2EE#PPA106,M1 | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
This is from Jonathan Edwards http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/JE-marksofhs.htm II. A work is not to be judged of by any effects on the bodies of men; such as tears, trembling, groans, loud outcries, agonies of body, or the failing of bodily strength. The influence persons are under, is not to be judged of one way or other, by such effects on the body; and the reason is, because the Scripture nowhere gives us any such rule. We cannot conclude that persons are under the influence of the true Spirit because we see such effects upon their bodies, because this is not given as a mark of the true Spirit; nor on the other hand, have we any reason to conclude, from any such outward appearances, that persons are not under the influence of the Spirit of God, because there is no rule of Scripture given us to judge of spirits by, that does either expressly or indirectly exclude such effects on the body, nor does reason exclude them. It is easily accounted for from the consideration of the nature of divine and eternal things, and the nature of man, and the laws of the union between soul and body, how a right influence, a true and proper sense of things, should have such effects on the body, even those that are of the most extraordinary kind, such as taking away the bodily strength, or throwing the body into great agonies, and extorting loud outcries. There are none of us but do suppose, and would have been ready at any time to say it, that the misery of hell is doubtless so dreadful, and eternity so vast, that if a person should have a clear apprehension of that misery as it is, it would be more that his feeble frame could bear, and especially if at the same time he saw himself in great danger of it, and to be utterly uncertain whether he should be delivered from it, yea, and to have no security from it one day or hour. If we consider human nature, we must not wonder, that when persons have a great sense of that which is so amazingly dreadful, and also have a great view of their own wickedness and God’s anger, that things seem to them to forebode speedy and immediate destruction. We see the nature of man to be such that when he is in danger of some terrible calamity to which he is greatly exposed, he is ready upon every occasion to think, that now it is coming.--When persons’ hearts are full of fear, in time of war, they are ready to tremble at the shaking of a leaf, and to expect the enemy every minute, and to say within themselves, now I shall be slain. If we should suppose that a person saw himself hanging over a great pit, full of fierce and glowing flames, by a thread that he knew to be very weak, and not sufficient to bear his weight, and knew that multitudes had been in such circumstances before, and that most of them had fallen and perished, and saw nothing within reach, that he could take hold of to save him, what distress would he be in! How ready to think that now the thread was breaking, that now, this minute, he should be swallowed up in those dreadful flames! And would not he be ready to cry out in such circumstances? How much more those that see themselves in this manner hanging over an infinitely more dreadful pit, or held over it in the hand of God, who at the same time they see to be exceedingly provoked! No wonder that the wrath of God, when manifested but a little to the soul, overbears human strength. | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Here Johnathan Edwards says that God will do Strange and New Things http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/JE-marksofhs.htm SECT. 1. Negative Signs; or, What are no signs by which we are to judge of a work--and especially, What are no evidences that a work is not from the Spirit of God. NOTHING can be certainly concluded from this, That a work is carried on in a way very unusual and extraordinary; provided the variety or difference be such, as may still be comprehended within the limits of scripture rules. What the church has been used to, is not a rule by which we are to judge; because there may be new and extraordinary works of God, and he has heretofore evidently wrought in an extraordinary manner. He has brought to pass new things, strange works; and has wrought in such a manner as to surprise both men and angels. And as God has done thus in times past, so we have no reason to think but that he will do so still. The prophecies of Scripture give us reason to think that God has things to accomplish, which have never yet been seen. No deviation from what has hitherto been usual, let it be never so great, is an argument that a work is not from the Spirit of God, if it be no deviation from his prescribed rule. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in his operation; and we know that he uses a great variety; and we cannot tell how great a variety he may use, within the compass of the rules he himself has fixed. We ought not to limit God where he has not limited himself. | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
There really is countless information I can post, and I will, lol. However, what I want to say, is that the only way you can really tell what is going on is to experience it yourself. I have. I pray, and I trust that when I pray in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of the Eternal Living God, that is who I am going to get. I also want to say one more thing. The lie that spiritual gifts died with the apostles is absolutely absurd. First, we have the record of revivalists who know that spiritual gifts were in operation. Second, the church is still here. The gospel has not been preached throughout the entire world. How could the gifts leave with the apostles, because they were to start the church, when the church hadn't been established yet. If the spiritual gifts were through, so would love. Because of all the spiritual gifts, love was deemed the most important. If we have no spiritual gifts, I'm afraid we have no need for love. It is really an absurd statement. I think it completely breaks God's heart to have children, who think that He has absolutely no power. His own children, give the devil more power then Him. They will jump and say the "devil did it", before they could even fathom that God could do a miracle. I think that borders on blasphemy. | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
http://books.google.com/books?id=IMgOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA37&dq=john+wesley+works+laughter+satan&as_brr=1&ei=yA_iRuDsOajA7gK5hKnIDQ This is an account of John Wesley and Holy Laughter breaking out in his sermon. He thinks it is of satan, and says God rebuked him. The controversy is OLD...lol if it is of satan, and John Wesley had it, what does that mean? I don't think anyone would call Wesley demon possessed. Let me get the link where he and Charles had it | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
http://books.google.com/books?id=s__4_HHCedgC&pg=PA260&dq=laughter+john+wesley&ei=6hniRvWJBpyS7QL6_pQa | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 366 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). homesheart: Did you have a point to make? | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.26.215 |
Quote Did you have a point to make? Well that sure beats having to respond in some intelligent way doesn't it? You have all the books and all the info and now she has shown you that you are wrong. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 368 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). hardbones: Quoting: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" End quote. You are starting to sound like our resident philistine, Mr. Arron. None of the source given contain the quote given. Perhaps, M(r)(s). homesheart should have said I am paraphrasing. Quoting: "Should we assume then that Paul/Peters etc. charism was pagan as well." End quote. I am confused! Are you suggesting that the lives/ministry/works of the Apostle Paul and/or the Apostle Peter are in someway associated with the fraud this thread is about? Charism: Noun Theology, a divine gift or power (glossolalia or faith healing). The Random House Dictionary, Revised Addition Copyrighted 1980. Note carefully the correct way to cite an authority. Now moving beyond the lunacies of pentecostalism, think. All religion is related to charism. An article in the Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation entitled "An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia(Speaking inTongues)" by George J. Jennings, March 1968. Jennings observes that glossolalia is practiced amoung the following non-Christian religions of the world; the Peyote cult among the North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Shago cult in Trinidad, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, the Aborigines of South American and Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Shamans in Greenland, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Zor cult of Ethiopia, the Siberian shamans, the Chaco Indians of South America, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Kinka in the African Sudan, the Thonga shamans of Africa, and the Tibetan monks. Again, notice correct cite information. | ||
| hardbones Junior Member Username: hardbones Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.48.177.240 |
All I am saying Bro. is that lots of info has been presented and you don't seem to want to deal with any of it. Same with the speaking in tongues thread. I gave experience from people I know. Quoted sources (loosely) and you don't speak to any of it. There is mountains of evidence of the nature I presented about speaking in tongues for any thinking person who doesn't have skepticals on. If I came across as a philistine I apologise;as a bro in the Lord you don't deserve to be treated that way. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). hardbones: You seem incapable of seperating biblical 'tongues' and faked infantile gibberish. If you would like to know the origins of faked infantile gibberish, you will find it here. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/30639.html?1178977124 You may also search for a gentleman named xman3. Mr. Xman3 attempted to defend faked infantile gibberish using God's (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages. Unfortunately, as soon as he opened his mouth, he discovered his religion had played him for a fool. I have ministered to those caught up in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism for twenty years. I have read all the quotes given above several times. I caused a major stir at a pentecostal university in Georgia when I disproved a second or subsequent event to salvation. I have been jailed for passing out Bibles to pentecostals. My point? I was born at night but not last night. I didn't fall off a turnip truck this morning. EH? Did I mention . . . money? I have had a reward out to any pentecostal who can find faked infantile gibberish in the Bible. or Any pentecostal who can find a second or subsequent event to salvation. That money is still available. Be sure to tell your preacher. I am willing to pay for an education. Find your doctrine in the Bible. I will gladly pay you for showing me. | ||
| homesheart Junior Member Username: homesheart Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.101.67.137 |
Maybe you should just pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, instead of trying to offer money to disprove God's gifts. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 373 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). homesheart: Aye! Me laddy buck! Ye seem incapable of rational thought! You have spend a massive amount of time and energy reading between the lines. I have never, mind you never, tried to disprove the gifts of God. I, sir, believe every single word in God's (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages! It is a shame you don't. As for the crapology of pentecostalism, it is just that. Crapology, filtholgy, garbology, etc. all describe the trash that religion teaches. Having said that, I do not blame you for refusing to question your leaders. You are simply afraid of discovering the truth. |
