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bachman
Junior Member
Username: bachman
Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 162.83.229.248
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 7:42 pm: | 
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So many preachers say "Plead the blood over your home, your business, your children!"
Is that even "scriptural" or just "something to say" while Satan rolls his eyes and Jesus wrings His hands?
Thoughts? |
hardbones
New member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 65.93.144.213
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 9:32 pm: |
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I do it all the time. Taking the power of Jesus atonement and applying it to your life or whatever is important. The devil hates the blood because that is what defeated him.
"And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony"
Rev.12/11 |
arron
Intermediate Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 247
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.206.202
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 12:12 pm: |
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ive done that all the time . i remind satan that THE BLOOD OF JESUS IS ALL IT TAKES TO RUN him clean out of town |
marta
Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.194.175.25
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 1:35 pm: |
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I think it's more superstition than scriptural. Can someone show me in scripture where one of the apostles pleaded the blood over anything? |
giulia
Junior Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 42
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.230.36
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 6:48 pm: |
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The blood is the heart of scripture, without the blood of Christ we have no reconciliation with God, no healing, no peace,joy or love. The blood of Jesus is what caused us to be saved and it is only through His blood we will resurrect.
A true blessing is not monetary but through the blood and without the blood there is no access to Living Water or refreshment of Spirit, nor access to the Clean Spirit of God.
Romans 5:9 we are justified by His blood and saved from wrath by His blood.
Hebrews 10:19 we have boldness to enter the Holy of Holies through His blood, in fact without it we have no place in God's Presence.
The book of Hebrews explains in detail the importance of the blood, the whole bible explains the importance of the blood,even in the OT, beginning with the blood that was shed for the covering of Adam and Eve by God, right through to the blood washed at the cross, there is a scarlet thread that knits the whole of scripture together. |
hardbones
New member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 65.93.27.45
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 7:10 pm: |
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"Can someone show me in scripture where one of the apostles pleaded the blood over anything?"
So the only teaching we are to pay attention to in the bible is where the apostles expressly deal with an issue and give clear instructions concerning it? Then we would have to throw out most church teaching on most subjects
Why do we have to have a proof text to say things the way "we" want them to?
What does Rev. 12 mean if it doesn't mean what it says? Here we have a situation written in the NT where the church is under attack and the way they defeated the devil is with the blood of Jesus.
I'd like to add that I don't know what everyone out there in charasmaticland says about this. I just know what I say and believe. and what I say and believe is that it is extremely effective in anything dealing with the devil. I cover myself my family and everthing important to me with the blood of Jesus everyday. I take the power of Jesus atonement and make it effective for me every day.
During the Exodus it was the blood of the lamb over the house that protected them from the devil. I see no reason why we can't do the same thing today.
For anyone who is interested here are two books on the subject. The best one I ever read is Maxwell Whytes. Short and to the point. I can't remember what Murray said on the subject.
http://www.amazon.ca/Power-Blood-H-Maxwell-Whyte/dp/0883680270
http://www.amazon.ca/Blood-Christ-Andrew-Murray/dp/0764224689/ref=sr_1_81/702-2143382-1258456?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187478611&sr=1-81 |
giulia
Junior Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 43
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.230.36
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 7:41 pm: |
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May I just add that without the blood, the bible would just be a bunch of empty word, void of power.
That is the Gospel:the blood, without the blood there is no good news for us.
Without the blood it is just religion that brings death, not life. The life is in the blood.
I'm on my way to church and it's my turn to do the scripture reading, so have to run, please excuse my abruptness. |
marta
Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.194.175.25
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 9:51 am: |
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It's my understanding that the question was, is it scriptural to "plead the blood" over one's home, business, children... etc. In my opinion, it's not.
Just to be clear, I never meant to imply that the blood of Jesus is of no importance. |
loverofchrist
Intermediate Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 201
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 71.209.39.69
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 3:36 pm: |
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IN my opinion the theology, teachin and practice of "pleading the blood" is entirely man-made. Whereas the Bible does say that "they overcame him by the blood and the power of their testimony," this is not Scriptural support for "pleading the blood." The blood of Christ is for the atonement of sin. It is not merely for overcoming a certain trial or situation.
Now, some may say that they have experienced victory by "pleading the blood" over a certain situation. But I believe that's mainly due to the fact that they were praying in and for that situation. The prayer of the righteous man avails much. We know that God answers prayers. So that fact that a word or phrase intended to "employ the blood" over a situation was used is surely secondary to the fact that genuine petition was being made for that situation. |
bluewater2
Intermediate Member
Username: bluewater2
Post Number: 401
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.42.171.14
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 3:45 pm: |
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"Pleading the blood" just sounds so yucky. Kind of like voodoo or santaria. |
bachman
Junior Member
Username: bachman
Post Number: 27
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 162.84.153.213
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 4:00 pm: |
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Thanks for your postings and comments. I never meant to imply that the blood of Jesus was not "important" and am familiar with the need of a blood sacrifice for our sin, etc.
Because I DO take the Bible literally, I think that Jesus or Paul or someone would say, "Remember to plead the blood over your endeavors, etc." but it is never stated so I sort of think it is a man-made thing to say. One of those, "It can't hurt!" but I agree with loverofchrist so felt that it's the prayer of a righteous person that availith much, not whether or not the "blood" is plead over a situation or property.
I know preachers have said they "plead the blood" over their property during a hurricane and the next day it's still there, so they plead the blood ALL the time.
I always wonder why they didn't pled the blood
over the whole neighborhood...but that's a different topic! |
bear
Junior Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 198.108.150.4
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 1:19 pm: |
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"Plead the Blood..." Is a Pentecostal invention.
As I was reading the responses above, I noticed that most responded with their church/denominations stance on the issue.
Hardbones quoted Revelation 12, yet the context of that verse does not support "pleading" the blood over anything. This text explains that they overcame (received their salvation) through the blood, not "pleading" it over the house, business, etc.
It would be refreshing to see someone actually give scriptural support for this doctrine. It is not in the text.
If you are a Pentecostal, then yes, you will use that phrase all the time. However, many Pentecostal doctrines and practices are extra-biblical (e.g., binding and loosing of demons), and can not be supported by solid biblical study.
I want to conclude by saying that the blood of Jesus is how we receive our salvation; it removes our sin. Yes we can come bodly before the throne of God now. However, pleading the blood over my house or things can not be supported.
(Message edited by bear on August 20, 2007) |
gldnboy17
New member
Username: gldnboy17
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 204.94.149.2
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 4:47 pm: |
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What about pleading the blood over a situation??? I'm only hearing about pleading the blood over materialistic things... Lets talk about the spiritual??? I would say that I'm non-denominational, but truely thats pentecostal as well, and yes we do practice binding and loosing... Remember that we are binding the demons, and binding the works of the enemy, and the person is being loosed from the oppression of the enemy, so lets not confuse what we've heard other people say. Binding primarily means that demon spirit has to submit to the authority that is in my voice. The same authority that Christ gave his disciples. And mind you they didn't say "I bind you and command you to loose them," etc. They just told them to come out and they did, but essentially they were doing just that... And yes, you can call a demon out without all of the talk (I bind this, and loose that), but it requires you to be led by the Holy Ghost. After doing so, I usually "plead the blood" over them, and over their life. I pray that God would encamp a hedge of protection around them, so on and so forth... Also remember that there has to be some loosing done, because I know that he loosed the chains that were binding me. Jesus said take on His yoke, because His yoke is easy, and his burdon is light. If not we would be bound, and we use the power of God which is given to us to bind that which is binding us. And the end result would be that a person would be no longer bound, but loosed. I'm open to all comments as well... (either on here on by e-mail)
pastor@wordofgodapministries.org |
giulia
Junior Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.230.36
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:34 pm: |
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We ought to plead the blood over every area of our lives, if what is close to your heat is finances then do that, if it is you spiritual walk then do it and if it's for your physical plead the blood for that area of your life.
When the blood gets spoken and by faith applied then the devil runs and what whatever is dear to your heart is God's concern and so the blood can be pleaded.
I might just add I am not Pentecostal, I am not Baptist I am not Evangelical I am not apostolic, I am not Catholic but I am all of the above.
I believe in the bible and whilst we all ought to examine our motivation closely, as the devil deceives, God still cares about each and every area of our lives.
I think some preachers talk about pleading the blood, without questioning the motivation or the object of desire, and I guess, for some it is their desire to please man that has taken hold and they then get deceived to get scripture to conform with their sinful desire, happens all the time and to the best of them.
I might remind everyone that drinking of the blood of Christ is something we do after we have thoroughly examined our hearts and repented otherwise we only drink condemnation and we drink of the blood to commune with Him and be cleansed and so that we can be in His will.
I guess that is what these preachers mean, although I agree the concept gets cheapened in the process and serves to condemn instead of bring power because there has been no repentance and no seeking of Him and His will, just of self and so in sin. |
loverofchrist
Intermediate Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 205
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 11:30 am: |
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I looked up the term "plead the blood" on the web the other day to see what folks were saying about it.
Apparently it is taught that "pleading the blood" is the most effective form of prayer. It is generally promoted as "the prayer of the victorious." proponents of this method of prayer promote it as the most effective means of prayer in battling the enemy.
Well, if "pleading the blood" is truly "the most effective" means of prayer, then it would imply that there are also least effective means of prayer. That's problematic for me, because I can't seem to find in my Bible any teaching that criticizes certain types of prayer as being least effective or that promotes another type of prayer as being most effective.
In the Bible prayer is generally contingent upon the heart of the person praying. Jesus taught that it's the condition of the heart that matters in prayer, the motivations for prayer. Believers are taught to be pure in their hearts during prayer and to seek the Lord deeply in their prayer.
Now, if "pleading the blood" is the most effective means of prayer, and only certain persons use such prayer, it seems to me that this method of prayer could be used as a means of division. One person using this means of prayer believes that their prayers are more effective than others. And so, when they pray they are truly "fighting the battle" where others are not. Others are not as effective in their prayer lives and they could b criticized for not truly being "warriors of Christ."
So it stands to reason to me that "pleading the blood" is merely a human invention. For we know that whatever is truly of God does not divide the Body of Christ, and whatever is of man divides us from one another. "Pleading the blood" divides believers from one another. If not outright then certainly overtly. |
bear
Junior Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.90.101.196
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:36 pm: |
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gldnboy17,
Binding and loosing is a term used in Rabbinical Judaism of Jesus' day. The Rabbis who interpreted the text would decide what was prohibited (bind) and what was permitted (loosed), based upon their interpretation of the text (their "yoke").
It is only mentioned in Matthew, and the reason is that Matthew was written to a Jewish audience.
There are only two places that binding and loosing are mentioned: Matthew 16 and 18.
- Matthew 18 deals with decisions based upon dealing with those in sin.
- Matthew 16 is not some new revelation that Jesus gave us. A Rabbi would give his students "The Key's of the Kingdom" when he felt that they were mature enough. These key's were his blessing on them to interpret scripture and make decisions.
There is NOT one place in the text where binding and loosing is ever used in spiritual warfare; that is a Pentecostal invention.
Sorry, Matthew 12, where the strong man is bound up, is not in anyway related to binding and loosing.
_______________________________________
One last note: You said that we are binding the works of the enemy, and a person is being loosed from their oppression...
Well, a person can be "loosed" from oppression, but that does not have anything to do with binding and loosing as a practice.
Some, like yourself, may search the NT for every place the word Bind or Loose is used. That does very little to support B&L being used in the Pentecostal way. Everything is based on context.
Now, it is true that a person is "bound" by sin, and that the gospel of Jesus "Looses" us from that sin. However, the term "looses" in this context speaks about being free, not a permitting of something and is the case in B&L.
The above is what I mean by using an interchange of terms in the Greek without understanding sytax and historical usage and background.
Binding and loosing, as a practice, and scripturally, speaks about what was permitted and what was prohibited.
Neither Jesus, nor his followers ever used the term "Satan, I bind you". There is not one teaching in the text that supports B&L being used in this way, and sorry, but the act of having dominion over demons is not automatically B&L, even if we never use the word bind.
Note: Outside of Pentecostalism, this B&L in spiritual warfare practice is non-existent.
If you can provide the following:
1. One scripture where binding and loosing is used in spiritual warfare.
2. Proper historical sources (first century and pre-pentecostal) which supports B&L use in spiritual warfare,
I may be inclined to concede.
From your e-mail address, I am guessing that you are hardcore Pentecostal, and the ap in your address could possibly mean "apostolic". Is that true?
(Message edited by bear on August 21, 2007) |
gldnboy17
New member
Username: gldnboy17
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 204.94.149.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 2:53 pm: |
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Bear,
I really do appreciate you responding to the message I posted here... I will surely begin to do my research, you have brought some things to light, and some things at this point, I will not change my opinion on, but I ensure you that I will definitely do my research. I am open to a change on how I do things and I honestly agree with a lot of what you said, but I will now research it for myself, and I will make sure I get back with you.
Thanks,
gldnboy17 |
bachman
Junior Member
Username: bachman
Post Number: 28
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 162.83.251.36
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 6:02 pm: |
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Pretty fascinating discussion (I think) but let me zero in a little more on the phrase "I plead the blood of Christ over...(whatever)."
For those who believe this really "means something" I'm curious as to what it means exactly.
If I were to say, "I plead the blood over my finances, that they are protected and prosper in Jesus' name" (or whatever would be correct) does that prayer mean that I am "applying the blood" to my finances/the situation?
In other words, does the word "plead" mean to APPLY the blood? And the blood of Jesus is used to forgive the sin debt -- what else is it "good for?"
Does the blood protect? Can it be used to prosper a crusade or outreach?
Here is what the word plead means:
1. To appeal earnestly; beg: plead for more time.
2. To offer reasons for or against something; argue earnestly: plead against a bill.
3. To provide an argument or appeal: Your youth pleads for you in this instance.
4. Law
1. To put forward a plea of a specific nature in court: plead guilty.
2. To make or answer an allegation in a legal proceeding.
3. To address a court as a lawyer or advocate.
So are we "permitted" to throw the blood around as we see fit (and I mean that respectfully) or is His blood only for the removal of sin and to plead its presence over other situations is pointless? |
majajh
Junior Member
Username: majajh
Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 198.250.180.194
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:22 pm: |
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The blood of Christ only shows up if you plead it over something? That's silly. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 173
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.56.92
| | Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 5:47 am: |
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I might have used that phrase once or twice in my day, I suppose. My opinion, and that's all it is, is that for a typical Christian like myself to "plead the blood", over something is more a declaration and reminder for the benefit of my own soul of the covenant of protection or whatever I have with God which was basically settled by the blood of Christ.
I don't see any magical protection that comes through the utterance of those words, but rather a sort of personal faith boost in the remembrance that I am forever a covenant child of God because of the blood. Occasionally God does tell us to remind Him of His covenant, so I can see scriptural support for it for mostly my own benefit, and maybe a little towards God.
The "power" of the blood and the reality of the covenant are always there whether I acknowledge them or am conscious of them or not, but that doesn't translate into an automatic utopia for Christians for some reason. I find I gain something when I remind myself of that covenant and perhaps freshly lay hold of it's benefits as I humbly (hopefully) acknowledge it's all because Jesus shed His blood for me.
Still no magic formula though. |
bachman
Junior Member
Username: bachman
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 162.83.229.141
| | Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 7:08 am: |
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That's well put "xman3" -- sort of like communion, do this "in remembrance of Me" to remind us of Who He is and what He's done -- the blood to cover/erase and forgive sin -- but not the blood to "do things" for us or protect us; that's us using the authority He's given us. |
homesheart
New member
Username: homesheart
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 71.101.67.137
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:35 am: |
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Pleading the blood comes from Exodus 12:7. When the angel of death was passing over the homes, the children of Israel, who had applied the blood of the lamb to their doorposts were saved.
Everything in the Old Testament is a "type and shadow" of the New Testmaent. Jesus is the sacrificial lamb, and we do not need the blood of bulls and goats or any animal sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice for sins, the blood of Jesus Christ.
Pleading the blood is the fulfillment of the type and shadow of the Old Testament where sins were forgiven and protection was granted by pleading the blood.
To find Scriptural basis in the New Testament for pleading the blood, just look for any story where someone was saved, delivered, or healed by the blood of Jesus Christ. |
loverofchrist
Intermediate Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 323
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:55 am: |
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quote:Pleading the blood comes from Exodus 12:7. When the angel of death was passing over the homes, the children of Israel, who had applied the blood of the lamb to their doorposts were saved.
This is true. But as a "shadow" of the practice of "pleading the blood," I don't think it's being applied accurately. Yes, the lamb was a shadow of Christ, and the blood is a shadow of Christ's sacrifice. But the blood in Exodus was only applied once to the doorposts and lintels, and salvation from the angel of death occurred only once. So therefore, the re-application of the blood by believers today is not in accordance with the shadow.
quote:Everything in the Old Testament is a "type and shadow" of the New Testmaent. Jesus is the sacrificial lamb, and we do not need the blood of bulls and goats or any animal sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice for sins, the blood of Jesus Christ.
Yes, and that sacrifice was once for all. The blood of Christ is not continually being shed, and He is no longer on the cross. So wouldn't the re-application of Christ's blood really be no different than continually sacrificing a bull or goat, as in the Old Testament? Think about it: The blood of the sin offering had to be poured over the mercy seat periodically, because that blood was insufficient to completely remove the stain of the people's sin. So wouldn't the periodic re-application of the blood of Christ over various things be in accordance with that same practice? Isn't that saying that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover those issue through the one sacrifice, which is continual? |
loverofchrist
Intermediate Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 324
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:12 pm: |
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quote:Pleading the blood comes from Exodus 12:7. When the angel of death was passing over the homes, the children of Israel, who had applied the blood of the lamb to their doorposts were saved.
This is true. But as a "shadow" of the practice of "pleading the blood," I don't think it's being applied accurately. Yes, the lamb was a shadow of Christ, and the blood is a shadow of Christ's sacrifice. But the blood in Exodus was only applied once to the doorposts and lintels, and salvation from the angel of death occurred only once. So therefore, the re-application of the blood by believers today is not in accordance with the shadow.
quote:Everything in the Old Testament is a "type and shadow" of the New Testmaent. Jesus is the sacrificial lamb, and we do not need the blood of bulls and goats or any animal sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice for sins, the blood of Jesus Christ.
Yes, and that sacrifice was once for all. The blood of Christ is not continually being shed, and He is no longer on the cross. So wouldn't the re-application of Christ's blood really be no different than continually sacrificing a bull or goat, as in the Old Testament? Think about it: The blood of the sin offering had to be poured over the mercy seat periodically, because that blood was insufficient to completely remove the stain of the people's sin. So wouldn't the periodic re-application of the blood of Christ over various things be in accordance with that same practice? Isn't that saying that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover those issue through the one sacrifice, which is continual? |
bear
Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 198.108.150.4
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 8:44 pm: |
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Homesheart said:
Everything in the Old Testament is a "type and shadow" of the New Testmaent.
Um...that is actually not true. Please, share with me:
1. Where the NT states this fact?
2. Where you were taught this? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 599
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 1:23 pm: |
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To answer the original question, No! pleading the blood is not biblical. It does sound religiony, though.
I agree with you, Mr. Bear. I would love to see the answers to those questions. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 104
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 61.68.189.132
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 1:45 am: |
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Actually pleading the blood is merely enforcing the work that has already been undertaken in our hearts.
If one uses the term for their finances or stuff that is not in line with God's will then it is just using God and not in His will and even can be presumptious.
"In the Bible prayer is generally contingent upon the heart of the person praying. Jesus taught that it's the condition of the heart that matters in prayer, the motivations for prayer. Believers are taught to be pure in their hearts during prayer and to seek the Lord deeply in their prayer."
loverof Christ I agree it is the heart and motivation thereof that truly matters and if pleading the blood is reinforcing the event that has already taken place or if pleading the blood helps with a current spiritual battle that you may be undertaking, then it is in line with scripture, because it is through the blood we overcome and only through the blood.
The blood of Christ is the most powerful weapon we have against or in protection of the devil.
I agree that the OT is a shadow of our present reality.
The book of Deuteronomy is the book Jesus quoted from most and even He said that not one jot of the law will be cancelled.
The blood of Christ was shed once and for all for the propitiation of our souls and the blood of Christ, shed once is enough for our souls and all our sins.
Holy of Holies was only open to one priest each year and he had to go in with a fresh sacrifice and rope on his leg and bells on his hem in case he got smitten.
Now it is open all the time for all who are chosen and have accepted and are obedient to Christ.
We are able to learn lots from the OT. Many lessons were taught from the OT throughout the NT, even by the apostles. Scripture is full of it:
Deuteronomy 1:31 is also quoted in Acts 13:18, so is De 2:14 quoted in 1 Cor 10:5,De 2:15 is quoted in Jude, Acts 10:34 is the same as De 1:17, De 4:24 is the same as He 12:29. And I can go on and on.
Then there is the picture of the Holy of Holies, described in the book of Hebrews, now if the OT is not a shadow of things to come, why describe the place in Hebrews, and with such detail.
Hebrews 8:5 "Who serve onto the example [that which is a copy] and shadow of heavenly things....."
Check it out |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 602
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 7:20 am: |
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M(r)(s). giulia
Quoting: "The blood of Christ was shed once and for all for the propitiation of our souls and the blood of Christ, shed once is enough for our souls and all our sins."
End quote.
Are you suggesting that salvation is universal? or Did Jesus die for no apparent reason in select cases? Did you waffle in the next diatribe?
Quoting: "Now it is open all the time for all who are chosen and have accepted and are obedient to Christ."
End quote. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 105
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 61.68.189.132
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 8:04 am: |
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Mr, Mrs,Ms or Miss Apostolic Truth Ministries,
I am merely paraphrasing He 9:12, I was sure you would recognise it, however was wrong.
Then He 9:11 also speaks of the more perfect sacrifice of the High Priest and more perfect tent than the Holy Place and even Holy of Holies.
Am suggesting Jesus died once for all, and also that He has chosen us not us Him, so for those who are chosen and those who choose to heed His call.
At no time did I say He died for no reason, but specifically for those who have been chosen and accepted Christ as their saviour.
Salvation is dependant on our faith. God has given us free will and will not force us, even though He is sovereign, He requires our surrender.
Obedience is also important for us to stay on the narrow path we have been chosen to walk along as we follow Christ, it is also important for our Spiritual wellbeing. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 106
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 61.68.189.132
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 8:14 am: |
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2 Th 1:8 "inflicting vengance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
He 5:9 "and being made perfect He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him"
Which part of this is waffle? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 604
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 10:54 am: |
|
M(r)(s). giulia
Quoting: "Which part of this is waffle?"
End quote.
All of it!
Quoting: ". . . Jesus died once for all . . .."
End quote.
Quoting: ". . . He has chosen us . . .."
End quote.
Quoting: ". . . those who choose to heed His call."
End quote.
Quoting: ". . . He died for no reason . . .."
End quote.
Quoting: ". . . accepted Christ as their saviour."
End quote.
Quoting: "Salvation is dependant on our faith."
End quote.
Quoting: ". . . and being made perfect He became the source of eternal salvation . . .."
End quote.
by the by, "Free will" was invented by the Roman church and is clearly refuted with the Bible (Acts 8:12 KJV). |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 11:19 am: |
|
"plead the blood?????"
Where did Jesus say to do that in the Bible????
Nowhere!
Instead in the Bible, Jesus said to use His name, the name of Jesus to "pray in His name, ask the Father anything scriptural provided in the free gift of grace", "cast out devils" etc...
The plead the blood nonsense though sincere is sincerely wrong and useless. It is nice to acknowledge that Jesus shed his blood but the authority and power and scriptural direction with power of attorney is to speak and use His name to release that power. The same power that did all the miracles, raised Jesus from the dead and conquered hell, physical and spiritual death, all the curse and the grave.
Many people just get this stretch of the Biblical truth and pass this religious tradition with no power on to others. Satan loves to deceive and sidetrack anyone from using the authority of Jesus name against him.
This is just another ploy by the great deceiver to stop people from the using the "NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERYTHING THAT IS NAMED"(as the Bible defines the power in Jesus name and its preminenece. Satan hate the name of Jesus.
They tried to forbid Paul and all the disciples from preaching "in Jesus name". Why? Because "there is no other name under heaven whereby you may be saved". There is no other name that has the power and authority in it that Jesus gave to all believers to use.
So stop being deceived and do what the Bible says use the name of Jesus. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 607
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 3:38 pm: |
|
M(r)(s). trsrinheaven:
You provide an interesting take. Like I said, it sounds religiony. It is little more than a classic con-man device. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 107
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.250.145
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 7:44 pm: |
|
Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss ATM all you do is criticise without even pointing out reasonably the grounds for your criticism, and frankly you are beginning to annoy me, free will was invented by God when He gave Adam and Eve a choice back in the garden of Eden.
Not even gonna justify my quotes as they already stand backed by the bible.
I didn't say He dies for no reason, you suggested this so get it right man/woman!
As I said earlier pleading the blood is affirming the work that Christ has already done in us, the blood of Christ has never been and never will be useless and the blood is reminding the devil and all his cronies of the most powerful weaopn we have against evil. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 108
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.250.145
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 5:28 am: |
|
Mr?Mrs?Ms ATM I'd say you are a male because you can't seem to think of more than one thing at once, that's okay, just that you dissapointed me, I thought you were intelligent!Thought you were gonna challenge me. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1195
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 5:39 pm: |
|
giulia,
"plead the blood?????"
Where did Jesus say to do that in the Bible????
Nowhere!
Instead in the Bible, Jesus said to use His name, the name of Jesus to "pray in His name, ask the Father anything scriptural provided in the free gift of grace- IN JESUS NAME", "cast out devils-IN JESUS NAME" etc...
The plead the blood nonsense, though sincere, is sincerely wrong and useless. It is nice to acknowledge that Jesus shed his blood but the authority and power and scriptural direction with power of attorney is to speak and use His name to release that power. The same power that did all the miracles, raised Jesus from the dead and conquered hell, physical and spiritual death, all the curse and the grave.
Many people just get this stretch of the Biblical truth and pass this religious tradition with no power on to others. Satan loves to deceive and sidetrack anyone from using the authority of Jesus name against him. There is no power in someone saying I plead the blood. There is only power in using the name of Jesus.
This is just another ploy by the great deceiver to stop people from the using the "NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERYTHING THAT IS NAMED"(as the Bible defines the power that is in Jesus name and its preminenece. Satan hates and fears the name of Jesus. When a born again believer uses the name of Jesus satan sees it as the same power of Jesus and just as if Jesus is making the command.
They tried to forbid Paul and all the disciples from preaching "in Jesus name". Why? Because "there is no other name under heaven whereby you may be saved". There is no other name that has the power and authority in it that Jesus gave to all believers to use.
So stop being deceived and do what the Bible says use the name of Jesus. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 109
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.250.145
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 6:20 pm: |
|
I know of some people called Jesus,yes His name is the most powerful name on earth because of the fact that He shed His blood, you know without the shedding of His blood you and I would not even be saved, the life is in the blood Lev 17:11 and without the blood there is not even a resurrection, without His blood you and I would not get a chance for reconciliation to God because Jesus took the place of the blood that used to be the mercy seat in the OT.
He 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ...."
He 13:12 "So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through His own blood."
He 9:22 "..without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins."
Re 12:11 "And they overcame him by by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony." |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 932
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.90.101.196
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 9:45 pm: |
|
giulia,
I do not have any opposition to parts of the OT being types and shadows. However, to say the "everything" is, well, that is not true. You see, many take the OT to be all shadow, and all type.
Let me give you two examples of what is not typology:
1. The three messengers who visited Abraham and then Lot. Many teach that this is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Untrue...they were Angels sent from God, not anything else.
2. The fourth individual in the furnace with Shad. Mesh. and Abed., in the book of Daniel. Many will tech that this is Jesus. However, when we understand that the king recognized this individual as the son of god (lit., the son of a god) in the sense that the individual was divine, it puts a different spin on the issue. The conclusion: that individual was an angel sent from God.
I agree with most of what you posted on September 20. There is so much that transcends from the OT into a NT reality. However, it takes much study and research to determine what transcends and what does not.
I have one question for you: do you have a Pentecostal background? |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 59
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 2:12 am: |
|
PLEASE read this. Its short.
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/pleading-the-blood-or-denying-its-power/ |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 110
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.250.145
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:02 am: |
|
I don't agree with the writer, for starters it is biblical to stand in the stead of another as this is called intercession, many don't practice nor know of it anymore, perhaps I don't full agree with the person they are criticising either, but you know, I am very fussy
Me no, I have a Catholic upbringing then got born again in a Methodist church, I think he was Methodist, from Wesley thinking background and William Booth. So Holiness mainly.
I can see traces of truth in every Christian Creed, all fall short, in my eyes. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 111
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.250.145
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:09 am: |
|
I have seen Pentacostal go totally off the deep end, pushing people over with their hands and all that. I have seen madness in Apostolic churches when they yell out "FIRE!FIRE!" and push each other over and pull all these Holy faces and pretend to be Holy, then I have seen Methodist church singing like it's an effort and no dance and I can't help myself, you know the Lord has set me free so I got no shame .
Then I have seen the Lutherans do rituals like they matter and get all legal and religious and false piety and all that drama. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2848
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 134.215.245.157
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:13 am: |
|
"all fall short, in my eyes". Guilia
Good statement! |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 64
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 1:24 pm: |
|
Giulia: No, that's not what he was saying. I agree it IS biblical to stand in the gap through intercession. What he was saying is that it isn't biblical to repent for someone else's sins. You can only repent for your own and plead for God's mercy for others. Make sense?
As for everyone falling short. I absolutely concur. Paul would roll over in his grave if he could see what the "church" has become.... |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 112
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.245.73
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 7:37 pm: |
|
Yes and it is up to you and I to show the true Spirit of God is still alive, to not be swayed nor to follow the lie but to stand firm in truth, even when the church errs.
To stay in Christ and continue each day to die to self and allow Christ to purify our souls with His Holy cleansing Fire. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1210
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
|
giulia,
John 14:13
Jesus said: whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
IN JESUS NAME
JEsus said in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father IN MY NAME He will give you.
"ask" the Father anything scriptural provided in the free gift of grace- IN JESUS NAME",
"plead the blood?????"
Where did Jesus say to do that in the Bible????
Nowhere!
Instead in the Bible, Jesus said to use His name, the name of Jesus to "pray in His name,
TO GET RESULTS IN PRAYER JESUS GIVES CLEAR INSTRUCTION in Mark 16, Mark 11, John 14, John 16 TO ASK IN HIS NAME AND TO USE HIS NAME and TO COMMAND THINGS TO HAPPEN ACCORDING TO GODS WORD HIS WILL.
"cast out devils-IN JESUS NAME" etc...
"In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."Mark 16
John 16:23
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
The plead the blood nonsense, though sincere, is sincerely wrong, total error and useless. It is nice to acknowledge that Jesus shed his blood. It may make you feel good but the authority and power and scriptural direction with power of attorney is to speak and use Jesus name to release that power. The same power that did all the miracles, raised Jesus from the dead and conquered hell, physical and spiritual death, all the curse and the grave.
Many people just get this stretch of the Biblical truth and pass this religious tradition with no power on to others. Satan loves to deceive and sidetrack anyone from using the authority of Jesus name against him. There is no power in someone saying I plead the blood. There is only power in using the name of Jesus.
This is just another ploy by the great deceiver to stop people from the using the "NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERYTHING THAT IS NAMED"(as the Bible defines the power that is in Jesus name and its preminenece. Satan hates and fears the name of Jesus. When a born again believer uses the "name of Jesus" satan sees it as the same power of Jesus and just as if Jesus is making the command.
They tried to forbid Paul and all the disciples from preaching "in Jesus name". Why? Because "there is no other name under heaven whereby you may be saved".
There is no other name that has the power and authority in it that Jesus gave to all believers to use. Religious tradition is Satans tool and gets people off Jesus name so that Gods power in them their power and prayers are negated.
So stop being deceived and do what JESUS SAID in the Bible says USE the name of Jesus.Philippians 2:9-11
New King James Version
"9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,"
Its the scriptural Biblical better way to pray! |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
|
giulia,
John 14:13
Jesus said: whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
IN JESUS NAME
JEsus said in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father IN MY NAME He will give you.
"ask" the Father anything scriptural provided in the free gift of grace- IN JESUS NAME",
"plead the blood?????"
Where did Jesus say to do that in the Bible????
Nowhere!
Instead in the Bible, Jesus said to use His name, the name of Jesus to "pray in His name,
TO GET RESULTS IN PRAYER JESUS GIVES CLEAR INSTRUCTION in Mark 16, Mark 11, John 14, John 16 TO ASK IN HIS NAME AND TO USE HIS NAME and TO COMMAND THINGS TO HAPPEN ACCORDING TO GODS WORD HIS WILL.
"cast out devils-IN JESUS NAME" etc...
"In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."Mark 16
John 16:23
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
The plead the blood nonsense, though sincere, is sincerely wrong, total error and useless. It is nice to acknowledge that Jesus shed his blood. It may make you feel good but the authority and power and scriptural direction with power of attorney is to speak and use Jesus name to release that power. The same power that did all the miracles, raised Jesus from the dead and conquered hell, physical and spiritual death, all the curse and the grave.
Many people just get this stretch of the Biblical truth and pass this religious tradition with no power on to others. Satan loves to deceive and sidetrack anyone from using the authority of Jesus name against him. There is no power in someone saying I plead the blood. There is only power in using the name of Jesus.
This is just another ploy by the great deceiver to stop people from the using the "NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERYTHING THAT IS NAMED"(as the Bible defines the power that is in Jesus name and its preminenece. Satan hates and fears the name of Jesus. When a born again believer uses the "name of Jesus" satan sees it as the same power of Jesus and just as if Jesus is making the command.
They tried to forbid Paul and all the disciples from preaching "in Jesus name". Why? Because "there is no other name under heaven whereby you may be saved".
There is no other name that has the power and authority in it that Jesus gave to all believers to use. Religious tradition is Satans tool and gets people off Jesus name so that Gods power in them their power and prayers are negated.
So stop being deceived and do what JESUS SAID in the Bible says USE the name of Jesus.Philippians 2:9-11
New King James Version
"9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,"
Its the scriptural Biblical better way to pray! |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 69
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 1:38 pm: |
|
trsr... i agree with what you said. But just so you know, when Jesus says to pray "in my Name" accoring to the greek, He doesnt literally mean to say "In Jesus' Name..." When someone says to do this, say this, or pray this in "my name" it means according to who He is or what He stands for/represents. According to His person. Does that make sense, i hope?
In other words, if you ask/pray something, it has to be according to Jesus' will, according to who Jesus is. So you can't pray down fire from heaven to kill all the babies in America because it wouldnt be in Jesus' Name. Make sense?
so NO, you dont USE the Name of Jesus, you pray according to the Name of Jesus. |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 1:48 pm: |
|
please read this for more, if you would like a better explaination than mine...
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/names.htm |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 119
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.212.251
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 3:26 pm: |
|
"In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."Mark 16
Trisinheaven just wondering if you have ever done any of this personally, seeing you speak of it?
If not, why not?
Jesus' name without His blood means nothing, His blood is His life and without blood there is no life. |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:03 pm: |
|
Giulia, actually you are WRONG. Jesus said those things (and the apostles did them) long before He ever died and rose again.
Jesus; Name without His blood is still the Name of the Son of God. How dare you call it nothing?
His blood was to set us free from sin. But the prophets of God did miricles long before Jesus died, as did the disciples.
Tell me, where in the Bible does it EVER talk about "pleading blood"? |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:15 pm: |
|
Giulia, actually you are WRONG. Jesus said those things (and the apostles did them) long before He ever died and rose again.
Jesus; Name without His blood is still the Name of the Son of God. How dare you call it nothing?
His blood was to set us free from sin. But the prophets of God did miricles long before Jesus died, as did the disciples.
Tell me, where in the Bible does it EVER talk about "pleading blood"? |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:43 pm: |
|
Giulia, actually you are WRONG. Jesus said those things (and the apostles did them) long before He ever died and rose again.
Jesus; Name without His blood is still the Name of the Son of God. How dare you call it nothing?
His blood was to set us free from sin. But the prophets of God did miricles long before Jesus died, as did the disciples.
Tell me, where in the Bible does it EVER talk about "pleading blood"? |
hardbones
Member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.48.176.4
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 6:42 pm: |
|
Rev.12/11 |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 941
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.194.175.25
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |
|
Ask yourself ....
How many times do we see Christians "plead the blood" in scripture?
Continually "pleading the blood" is not scriptural.
The blood was shed once to cleanse us from our sins forever. Nothing more needs to be done.
Hebrews 9:12 Once for all time he took blood into that Most Holy Place, but not the blood of goats and calves. He took his own blood, and with it he secured our salvation forever.
How many times do we see Christians "ask in the name of Jesus" in scripture?
Speaking "in the name of Jesus" is found throughout scripture.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.
Acts 3:16 "The name of Jesus has healed this man and you know how lame he was before. Faith in Jesus' name has caused this healing before your very eyes. |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 942
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.194.175.25
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 1:02 pm: |
|
What did Jesus say?
John 14:12-14 "The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, because the work of the Son brings glory to the Father. Yes, ask anything in my name, and I will do it!
Show me where Jesus told us to "plead the blood".
The truth is simple. Believe God. |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 1:45 pm: |
|
Hardbones: that has nothing to do with "pleading the blood" and it would be rediculous to make a doctrine based on one ambiguous scripture.
It was THRU the blood of the lamb that they were even saved and given new life in the first place. Why read more into it when there's nothing to read into at all as well as there being nothing to back it up with? |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 1:51 pm: |
|
Hardbones: ps. God makes it clear what rev 12/11 means in Rev 7:14.
Actually he defines what the saints do with the blood of the lamb then speaks of it again in rev 12:11. This, again, has NOTHING to do with this doctrine of "pleading the blood"
Maybe people should really try reading their bibles a lot more and listening to what teachers say a whole lot less. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 136
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.212.251
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 4:51 pm: |
|
Exihoper I was quoting someone else, if you read the post and asking a question, may as well ask you the same one, have you ever cast out demons in His name?
"Jesus; Name without His blood is still the Name of the Son of God. How dare you call it nothing?
His blood was to set us free from sin. But the prophets of God did miricles long before Jesus died, as did the disciples."
So what of the guy down the road whose name is Jesus? And as I understand, there were other Jesuss in the bible.
Without the blood there is no power in a spiritual walk, only through the blood do we have His power. Jesus was prophesying and it was through the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus to come that allows the disciples into the Holy presence and access to the Holy power of God.
If you study scritpure without blood there is no atonement, blood appeases God's wrath, without His blood there is no access to His Presence nor power.
The scarlet thread runs throughout scripture and helps us to understand what Christ's work on the cross actually means.
Of course without the Holy Spirit, you will never understand and you will keep deliberating with no success of discovering any Presence of God. |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 943
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.194.175.25
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 5:44 pm: |
|
Of course without the Holy Spirit, you will never understand and you will keep deliberating with no success of discovering any Presence of God.
The Holy Spirit is not the one telling you to ignore the instructions of Jesus in favor of some man-made tradition that is not even found in scripture.
Read your bible and consider how many times you see the phrase "in Jesus name", "in the name of Jesus", etc. Do you really believe the Holy Spirit has given you a deeper revelation than the one that the apostles had? |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 3:23 pm: |
|
giulia,
You post to me...
"In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."Mark 16
Trisinheaven just wondering if you have ever done any of this personally, seeing you speak of it?
If not, why not?
Jesus' name without His blood means nothing, His blood is His life and without blood there is no life.
Philippians 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
First the GREAT COMMISSION includes BOTH the verses before the one you quote, and the ones after that.
Marek 16 "15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."
Yes I have done all of what the verses say to do above and seen great results.
Notice these signs follow the word preached. The word for healing preached will have signs of healing follow after it. We are to have signs follow us not us follow signs.
Those who believe have the power to cast out devils; speak with new tongues; take up serpents; drink any deadly thing, and it shall not hurt them; lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
These signs will never manifest pleading the blood. They will only manifest using THE NAME OF JESUS". Jesus says "IN MY NAME" "In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover", using the power of MY NAME!
Pleading the blood gets NO RESULTS. WHY? The Bible says so. Jesus also only says to use HIS NAME. Their is POWER in His name because of what Jesus accomplished and gave us this power for what we may invoke when we use it.
Jesus gave us power of attorney to use His name, and Holy Spirit power manifest by using HIS NAME.
There IS NO POWER AND NO RESULTS pleading the blood.
Remember it was divine blood of Jesus Christ not just blood. Jesus overcame the devil not his blood. Jesus shed his blood. He fulfilled the law by doing so.
Ephesians 1:20-22
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 2:58 am: |
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guilia: If you are saying I don't have the Holy Spirit (it really seems that way) that is completely wrong and uncalled for. I happen to have a very strong relationship with Jesus and He's alive and well in my life.
As for your question: You may be very surprised to discover that I have, in fact, cast out a number of demons in the NAME of Christ Jesus. I also see in the spirit and have since i was 6 years old.
I agree the blood sacrifice is vital and necessary for us to even live in Christ. I never said anything otherwise. But almost as vital is dying to ourselves and living in love. Not many people who call themselves christians do that. What I was saying is that saying "the Name of Jesus" and using the "blood" are not forms of manipulation that can be used. They aren't like incantations -- you say the magic words and you're set free or this or that spirit is now under your power. In fact it is quite the opposite. I have MUCH experience with the spiritual realm, i guarentee more than anyone on this site. Take the book of Acts as an example -- the sons of Sceva. They tried casting out demons in the name of Jesus and look where it got them - Naked and beaten! And an example from real life, even: a demon visits you in the night to torture you or harass you (as a christian). You say the name of Jesus like so, "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazereth, the son of the true and living God, you have no authority here! Get out of this room and out of this house, now!" But instead of leaving the demon just taunts you even more. Now why did that demon not leave??? That's obsurd! No not really. Actually, if you are commanding a demon (and this applies to so much more than the demonic) to leave in the name of Jesus, but you are saying it in complete fear, you are not really believing in the power of Christ, and therefore you are just uttering useless words. Instead, if you had true faith and you knew who God is and that He is living in you and you in Him, then you wouldnt be afraid of the stupid demon (i call it the boogeyman, cause thats all they are, just worthless jerks trying to scare you) and you would walk in true authority, through Christ. Perfect love casts out all fear, right?!
The point: Just because you say the name of Jesus or "plead the blood" doesn't mean a single thing at all. You actually have to be walking in obedience to Christ and in love. That was the point I was making by telling you the greek didnt mean the literal name of Jesus, but His very person. Meaning you had to be walking according to His will.
Make sense? |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 3:06 am: |
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Ps. Giulia
I dont care what revelation you think you have or your church/pastor said they had, if it doesnt pass the test of scripture, it is a lie from HELL.
It is very wrong and upsetting that you would take jabs at fellow christians because they don't see eye-to-eye with you. It completely reveals your character and, unfortunately, it is fruit that shows where you are in your walk.
the GREATEST of these is LOVE.....
"if you say you know God but hate your brother, you are a LIAR and the truth is not in you" Because God is love...
NOTHING is more important than love. Unfortunately, its why the "church" is so far from God or any real move of the Spirit in this country. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 142
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.212.251
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:14 am: |
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Who is my brother? He/she who does the will of God, not just the one who talks it.
Hey Exihooper, if in fact you do have the Holy Spirit then why do you have to convince me? Shows me a fruit of self importance and desire for self recognition. You have the most experience of anyone on this site?
Ignorant statement to say the least and if you feel I was alluding to you not having the Holy Spirit when I said nothing of the sort then that is your perception.
"The point: Just because you say the name of Jesus or "plead the blood" doesn't mean a single thing at all. You actually have to be walking in obedience to Christ and in love. That was the point I was making by telling you the greek didnt mean the literal name of Jesus, but His very person. Meaning you had to be walking according to His will."
I agree with this
"I dont care what revelation you think you have or your church/pastor said they had, if it doesnt pass the test of scripture, it is a lie from HELL."
Strange, I don't recall telling you anything about a pastor or revelation, which lie from hell do you suppose I am believing? |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 4:52 pm: |
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giulia,
You post to me...
"In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."Mark 16
Trisinheaven just wondering if you have ever done any of this personally, seeing you speak of it?
If not, why not?
Jesus' name without His blood means nothing, His blood is His life and without blood there is no life.
Philippians 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
First the GREAT COMMISSION includes BOTH the verses before the one you quote, and the ones after that.
Marek 16 "15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."
Yes I have done all of what the verses say to do above and seen great results.
Notice these signs follow the word preached. The word for healing preached will have signs of healing follow after it. We are to have signs follow us not us follow signs.
Those who believe have the power to cast out devils; speak with new tongues; take up serpents; drink any deadly thing, and it shall not hurt them; lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
These signs will never manifest pleading the blood. They will only manifest using THE NAME OF JESUS". Jesus says "IN MY NAME" "In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover", using the power of MY NAME!
Pleading the blood gets NO RESULTS. WHY? The Bible says so. Jesus also only says to use HIS NAME. Their is POWER in His name because of what Jesus accomplished and gave us this power for what we may invoke when we use it.
Jesus gave us power of attorney to use His name, and Holy Spirit power manifest by using HIS NAME.
There IS NO POWER AND NO RESULTS pleading the blood.
Remember it was divine blood of Jesus Christ not just blood. Jesus overcame the devil not his blood. Jesus shed his blood. He fulfilled the law by doing so.
Ephesians 1:20-22
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church" |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 4:59 pm: |
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Good. You know who your brother is. But Jesus also tells us to love our neighbor, and that doesn't just mean people we like or people we percieve to do the will of God. If that were true we would be justified in loving no one at all. But that's beside the point.
Most experience with demonic. Not with Jesus. please actually read what i said. and I dont need to prove anything to you. Everything I said was to make the point from the previous post. And if you think I don't have a right to tell you that you are wrong in the judgement you made against me publically, then you are mistaken and it, in no way makes me pridefull or self absorbed. Please. I don't give a crap what anyone thinks of me. If I did, I wouldn't be a Christian and you have no idea what you're talking about. Please stop condescending me. You are no better than any person on this site. and you are absolutely fighting the wrong battle, for that matter.
As for the matter of the HS. You, in fact, did say, "Of course without the Holy Spirit, you will never understand and you will keep deliberating with no success of discovering any Presence of God."
as for the last statement about the church/pastor, It was a general statement. Sorry for the confusion. |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 5:04 pm: |
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trsrinheaven: I half agree with you. You're taking things much too literally. Walk in the will of God by walking in faith, hope, and love. Desire God. Love God. Live unto God. The rest will come. Jesus, and demons for that matter, hardly care what you say.
Seek first the KINGDOM and these things will be added... delight yourself in the Lord and THEN He will give....
Your words mean nothing if your heart does not follow.
see what i mean? |
bachman
Intermediate Member
Username: bachman
Post Number: 254
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 141.155.24.173
| | Posted on Friday, October 05, 2007 - 7:39 pm: |
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trsrinheaven, I was wondering what church you go to ;is it denomination or is it non-denominational?
Thanks--just curious. |
giulia
Intermediate Member
Username: giulia
Post Number: 143
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 59.101.212.251
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 6:55 pm: |
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"Jesus' name without His blood means nothing, His blood is His life and without blood there is no life. "
I don't understand, are you disputing this?
I know we have lost much of the original meanings of words in translation and I think "In His name" actually means a lot more than what we understand it to mean in our language. |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 97
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 8:21 pm: |
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Honestly, I think we all need to get off it. Lets major in what the Bible/Jesus majors in and minor in the minors.
In other words, lets stop arguing about things that don't even make a difference and live to love.
Jesus said the greatest commandment, our entire purpose, its to what? LOVE GOD and LOVE your neighbor.
LOVE. Lets talk about how to do that. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1250
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 10:49 am: |
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bachman,
"trsrinheaven, I was wondering what church you go to ;is it denomination or is it non-denominational?
Thanks--just curious.
Why do you really ask?
I go to church regularly but it does not matter what type of church. It's a Whole Bible teaching believing, loving, evangelistic, multi-cultural ministry and congegration for all races, ages and gender.
You don't read my posts or you would know Jesus was anti-denomination. The denominations put God in tight limited last word on it box. They form a denomination so because they think they know everything there is to know and put it into a nice little statements of doctrine.
NO ONE knows all the Biblical truths ESPECIALLY some denomination that doesn't encourage their congregation members to know the Bible, have a personal relationship with God on their own, and not to practice or believe in half of the Bible in the first place.
There is a spiritual realm and it rules over, influences, and effects the physical realm it came from.
God is a Spirit - John 4:24
God framed the world from the spiritual realm by His word.
Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
Jesus, God come in the flesh, defeated satan death hell and the grave, triumphed over them and gave us His power, name and word for "the ministry of reconcilation" 2Cor5 to remove all obstacles, for proclaiming the Gospel which includes salvation relationhip, healing the sick, and meeting the needs of all people "which is included in Grace."
Jesus became sin, took all eternal punishment in himself for all, past present and future and made those who will ask and receive the "rigtheousness of GOD in Christ". 2Cor5
This is "good news". Now we are to Go and proclaim the good news of RELATIONSHIP, reconciliation proving it, confirming it with signs and wonders following. Mark 16
If you have no evidence, no signs, no wonders then you either have no understanding of the power given to us in our brand new born again spirits from God, have not received the power of the Holy Spirit, are not going all the way to meet every need and or are not proclaiming the Gospel.
In order to proclaim the good news with good results...You need to renew the mind on what has taken place in the born again spirit with our identiy in Christ.
You need to know the scriptures. You need to know "the power that works in us". You need to know the power and authority in the name of Jesus. You need to know satan has been stripped of his power that he stole from mankind and we now have that power and more....in our spirits housed in earthen vessels. You need to know we all have enough faith. You need to know that unbelief is the main hindrance to answered prayer as it was to Jesus and then the disciples.
Remove unbelief and the connection of faith can work to MANIFEST from the spiritual to the physical.
Now "faith works by love." "Casting down inaginations and taking thoughts captive controlling our thinking is spirtual warfare against all the wiles schemes against the devil" "Perfect love casts out fear." Meditating on how much God loves us removes fear and allows our faith to work unhindered.
NO ONE KNOWS where satan is all the time(although he is not omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient) so it is wise to always take authority ove him "in Jesus name" and remove him from the equation. A police officers uses his authority and we are told to do the same...James 4:7 |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1251
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:15 am: |
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continued....
The Bible clearly states....
"Jesus healed ALL who were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL"Acts 10:38
Jesus cast out devils out of sick people. Jesus spoke to things and commanded them to happen as he told us to do in Mark 11:22-24 and elsewhere.
The disciples spoke to things in Jesus name and commanded them to happen.
They also laid hands on people and became a conduit of Gods love and unlimited healing power and people received.
The lights did not go dim in heaven for their is always enough of Gods power to heal anything.
"With God all things are curable" "Nothing is incurable with God".
So why don't people Go???
They don't belive! They lack knowledge. They believe religions lies and traditions lies over the word of God. They go by what the five senses and what they see rather than faith.
They don't take responsibility of what God has commanded us to do. They don't know the power and all the great things that in the Holy Spirit in them and do not ask! They pray once and dont' see immediate results so they think that must mean it didn't work. They fail a few times and blame God instead of themselves and their own lack of knowledge or unbelief.
There is right way to pray and a better way to pray for specific things according to the Bible.
Jesus said to speak to things and command them.
Jesus said to USE HIS NAME with authority in it.
Jesus said to unbelief hinders faith and to remove unbelief for faith to work, manifest and see results.
Jesus showed in MArk Chapter 4 that it all comes from the spiritual realm and manifests into the physical realm like a seed that is planted...
Jesus showed in Mark 4 all of satans hindrances to these.
Jesus said if you do not undertand mark 4 parables you will not understand the Bible and how the kingdom works.
Read Daniel chapter 9 and Daniel Chapter 10.
Each time the angel told Daniel God anwered his prayer IMMEDIATELY(in the spritual realm. BUT in Daniel Chapter 10 it took 21 days to see it manifest. Why? Because of demonic hindrances.
Daniel stood in faith and received.
We have even better weapons and the "name of Jesus" to remove hindrances to manifest the spiritual power of God from the spiritual realm connected in our spirits into the physical realm to bless others and prove Jesus is God.
Jesus said to GO and do it all with signs and wonders following proving it.
The reason the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh was to give all those POWER to be an evidence producing WITNESS. Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses..."
Christians cannot be possessed in their born again spirit but they can be OPPRESSED and afflicted in their body if they give place to it(through committing sin and allowing or ommitting doing Gods will and word, not following Gods word, not following Gods principles of health in spirit, soul-mind intellect, thought life, will and emotions, and in body-eating toxic food, water and air and not properly exercising, etc.).
According to the Bible Non-believers are already posssessed. Satan is their father and spiritual connection having a spirit that has spiritual death in it.
They need to cut the connection with satan and spirtual death, remove their old dead spirit with spiritual death in it, get a new wine skin(spirit)from God and spiritual connection with God. |
exihoper
Member
Username: exihoper
Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 75.87.113.172
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 2:04 pm: |
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OMG tris, you are rediculous!
It wasn't some freaking conspiracy. He just wanted to know where you go to church so he could understand where you get your biblical views. Holy crap! |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 3:06 pm: |
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OMG. exihoper - IS YOUR NAME BACHMAN????
"me thinks you doth protest toooo much."
Perhaps you should stick your nose somewhere else...?
Bachman and I do not have just ONE THING we were posting back and forth about. There is a spiritual realm. There are demonic influences. There is only ONE name that has authority over those influences...and it is not exihoper!lol
This thread is a serious thread that leads many ignorant well meaning Christians down into the unscriptural pit of no results.
To stop praying in Jesus name (and to start doing some unscriptural incantation of pleading the blood) RIGHT AFTER JESUS clearly states to pray, ask the Father, cast out devils, heal the sick and so on IN HIS NAME is just what the enemies of Jesus would love to see Christians to do.
Why? Well that is simple. Because then they stop all Holy Spirit power in their prayer and scriptural commands.
exihoper-only in a perfect world can we ALL "stop arguing about things that don't even make a difference and live to love."
That topic is for a different thread. So go somewhere else and start one?
The things I posted above are straight clear Biblical truths about this thread and why the NAME OF JESUS is the ONLY NAME with power.
Jesus(God coming in the flesh) did it all out of love for us. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3650
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.206.202
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:04 pm: |
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you resist satan by.. resisting him and by rebuking him in THE NAME OF JESUS |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1254
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:58 pm: |
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aaron,
I totally agree we use the name of Jesus....but the warfare is in the mind.
There are combinations of things to use at our disposal along with the almighty name of Jesus.
Our thought life is the key.
We are told to "be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
"For though we walk in the flesh,
we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"
Aaron, notice the scriptures states "war" and "warfare". It is talking about "SPIRITUAL" warfare.
Like in Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
So notice the war we are in as it states in 2Cor 10 is to change our thinking. Romans 12 states it to be transformed by renewing our minds and then Gods word transforms us.
So the best weapon is using Gods word in conjunction with the name of Jesus.
Jesus stripped satan of all his power and made a show of this openly.
Satans only weapon is to deceive us and then by doing this he makes us use our own power against us. Jesus said only a DOER of Gods word is blessed in our doing.
For example: If we don't believe in using the name of Jesus then there is no power behind our prayer or command and agreement with Gods word.
If we don't believe the Holy Spirit leads us or ever ask Him to, or that God heals, or multiplies back to us financial blessing when we are good stewards and give to good stewardship good results minisry then we are deceived and Gods power is void and doesn't work or bear fruit.
The whole thing rests upon KNOWLEDGE. "We are destroyed For a lack of knowledge" Hosea 4;6-7
Notice here in 2Peter2-3 it says everything comes to us through knowledge...
"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him"
Grace, peace and everything in life and Godliness comes us through the knowledge of God. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 689
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 2:52 pm: |
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Just a point regarding praying and asking in Jesus's name. To pray and ask in the name of Jesus does not mean simply to end your prayers with the phrase, "In Jesus' name."
According to the cultural and historical context, to do something "in the name" of another person is to do it as that person's appointed representative. For example, when a servant would arrive at the home of another ruler he would announce to that household that he came "in the name of..." and whatever message he had to deliver was coming as from the person that he came in the name of.
As representatives of Christ our charge is to do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, not as coming from ourselves. So when Jesus told His disciples to pray in His name, He simply meant that they should not pray as from themselves only, but as representatives of God's appointed elect. When we pray we should do so in this manner, not in any selfish ordinary way, but as being the representatives of the King.
Christians - people - make things way to formulaic and religious. It is possible to end a prayer with, "...In Jesus' name" and not having prayed a single word in Jesus' name. |
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