| Author | Message | ||
     ggwo_defender New member Username: ggwo_defender Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 24.29.73.59 |
I just want to say that Gods hand is in GGWO. Many great men of God came in and out of the this great work! My father for one is now in Bulgeria Spreading Christ's word. Ya it may be forwoard but the time is short we need to tell everyone about Christ and he is the son of God and died for sins and washed us with his blood! >>> 1Cr 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. | ||
| littlesister New member Username: littlesister Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 65.206.74.7 |
I believe that's why we all were once associated with TBS and GGWO, we all came to spread the gospel and Christ's love, however "CLEVERNESS OF SPEECH" became the norm there and that's why we left. Be careful of your heart and mind and make sure to listen to them, as that is where HE lives, not in an organization. | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Praise God, that He's been doing many great things in these last days in spite of the leadership of GGWO!!!! That includes God working through some of the regular attendees at GGWO. God will use anyone who is yielded to Him!! Overall, God's hand is upon GGWO rather than in it. It is the hand of God that most affiliate GGWO churches left, that hundreds of regulars in GGWO services left, that FACTNET and other websites publicly exposed the truth that GGWO is a self serving personality cult built upon maintaining the legacy of Carl Stevens and his twisted churches while deliberately disguised as a mainstream evangelical church. Carl Stevens and other pastors at GGWO can call Factnet one million percent satanic garbage all they want, but overall there's been a lot more truth revealed on Factnet than at typical GGWO services and raps. Many teachings and policies of the GGWO leadership are not of God whether you believe it or not. Here's some examples. Geographical will and one pastor for life. The presumption that God wants the members of GGWO to always stay at GGWO under the same pastor teacher for the rest of their lives. God requiring everyone to attend every single service. God requiring everyone to always believe everything their pastor teacher says and always obey his every word. The presumption that to leave GGWO is to leave God's will for one's life. The prohibition against ever publicly exposing a pastor that decieves others with false doctrine or slanderous lies against others or presents an ongoing threat to the spiritual or physical safety of others. Just covering up for him and "just leaving it to God" is NOT scriptural!! Carl's claim that he had God inflict men with cancer for speaking against him. The requirement for everyone to hand over at least 10 percent of their gross pay to GGWO and the requirement for the youth to hand over to GGWO at least 10 percent of their allowances. The claim that your pastor teacher will present you to Christ on Judgement Day. The no-touch-love doctrine for those who aren't married. Thats just some of them. The GGWO leadership is the most arrogant, divisive and slanderous group I have ever seen in over 25 years being a Christian. People at GGWO have been pressured to turn their backs on spouses, loved ones and friends just for leaving GGWO or questioning its leaders. I personally know of people who have been brainwashed and emotionally damaged from alienation, slander, and judgementalism during my nearly five years as a GGWO youth worker. THIS IS NOT A MINISTRY THAT SEEKS THE WILL OF GOD!!! THIS IS A MINISTRY RUN BY THE WILL OF MEN FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT, PERIOD!!! While God would have loved to do many great things through GGWO that sadly never did happen, the GGWO leaders would rather run things their own way and condemn and slander others just for disagreeing with them. Instead of defending GGWO, you would be far better off in the long run to just leave GGWO yourself and find yourself a real church ministry that truly cares about God's will and about the lives of others. SIDETHORN | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 146 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.226.214 |
Sadly I have to agree with sidethorn. GGWO had such a great potential and the Lord gave many chances for them to come around to His way and stop all the man worshipping and adoration. Christ is the head ,not "any" so called pastor. No one believer is anointed more so than any other. We read "by the same Spirit" when we read what God has given the body. Follow no man. Follow the Christ. } | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
It is not the church, not even the chuurch of Christ. It is not the assmebly, it is not a man, It is our King, Our Lord, and Our Master that is and should be our focus. All Hail King Jesus not CHS, TS, or any man. | ||
| shat_happens Junior Member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
Here is one of the bigger reasons that GG gives me the Shats... http://youtube.com/watch?v=eeZsg8AdUMM | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
ggwo-defender said: "I just want to say that Gods hand is in GGWO. Many great men of God came in and out of the this great work!" Gg is not a 'great work'. No organization is a 'great work' IMO. Many men (and women) of God have done and continue to do great work while they were in gg and while they are out. It appears that ggwo-defender's dad is doing great work in Bulgaria. The fact that there are Spirit-filled people in the ministry doing good things does not mean that the ministry or its leadership is good. The fruit does not belong to the organization, but to Christ, yet tbs/gg has always sought to claim it was a healthy church based on fruit. One of my favorite quotes from "The Purpose Driven Life" is: "Jesus has not promised to build your ministry; He has promised to build His Church." | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
How true....God did His work even in GG, despite the corruption there. We all would agree that it is the people we met there that will always have a part of our hearts...despite the bad leadership and twisted teachings. The people were still God's people and He was still there through them | ||
| ggwo_defender New member Username: ggwo_defender Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 72.226.89.90 |
Tell me all the things you have seen heard or read Bad about GGWO. And yes men and women have been comin out of there. But we should know no man after the fleash and every pastor there is a sinner saved by grace it is not a cult we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.They do not twist scripture...And for what sidethorn Said yes God dose tell us to give 10% to the church its tithing (1 Corinthians 16:1-2). No touch love (1 Corinthians 7:1) I have never heard this from a pastor at GGWO >The claim that your pastor teacher will present you to Christ on Judgement Day or , and I have heard from Pastor Stevens himself say that he is just a man and this is Gods work and he has called him to build this church and Colledge. I pray that God puts love in your hearts and realize we are all here to spread Gods word. Time is short look around you and ask yourselves "Is it Gods will for me to do bad mouth mighty men of God and put down one of christ Church? or to go to all the world to preach the gosple?" what say you? | ||
| daved New member Username: daved Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.154.225.9 |
ggwo_defender writes: >>> "Is it Gods will for me to do bad mouth mighty men of God and put down one of christ Church? or to go to all the world to preach the gosple?" what say you? >>> 1Thes 5:23 (KJV) quotes Saint Paul as writing: >>> 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. >>> ggwo_defender, I certainly have been guilty of bad mouthing GGWO, but generally speaking my prayer for Christians in GGWO and for Christians who post on FACTnet:GGWO is that your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. What is done is done, let's move on. daved | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
What does it really mean to "know no man after the flesh"? Is it talking about the sin nature or sinful behavior? Jesus, who we are also told in the very same verse not to know after the flesh, had neither a sin nature nor sinful behavior. Does it mean we should not hold leaders accountable? Maybe those verses regarding qualifications for elders should be deleted from the Bible. Is it possible that following a leader because of his style or personality is knowing him after the flesh? | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 102 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
ggwodefender, LMAO brings up a good point. How many times have you been instructed to study to show yourself approved? Have you studied? You seem to have a love for the Bible, which may be your saving grace here. Ask yourself this question: Are the qualifications for an elder listed in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 minimal or are they unreachable ideals? The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. I can't remember how many times in discussions on this very board that I have had quoted to me the "I'm only human" excuse. Read the above verses again. How many times do you see the qualifying word "must" occur? | ||
| forte New member Username: forte Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
dear defender, I don't have anything profound to say except that if you will notice, everything you go to as far as meetings in GG, is a GG sales meeting. It's not all about Jesus. It's all about, "How can GG be all over the world and recognized as the greatest Christian organization in the world?" It's about "now were in this country and that country" It's about, "don't talk to anyone that doesn't side 100% with us" "hear no evil" "speak no evil" "it's a very bad world out there, we need to be together as much as possible" They throw Jesus' name around, say things that seem spiritual, but if you do your own investigating into their messages, you will find error. I'm sure your father is doing the work of Jesus with his whole heart but I could also be sure that he has some ingrained ulterior motive to get people to come to church to build the church so they can help support homebase. It's still all about homebase. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 105 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
I really have an unfulfilled felt need to have the term "homebase" return exclusively to baseball. | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 147 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.227.73 |
Defender said, "They do not twist scripture." --- What about the erroneous teaching application of "touch not mine anointed?" The application that GG puts on it is out of line with God's Word. Who are the anointed if not the body of Christ? So then ,how does one come up with the theory that one can not question a pastors message without questioning God? This is erroneous teaching. There are no Kings,Priests and Prophets today as there where in the old testament. They use this to squelch any opposition or disagreement concerning proper application of the Word. (what happened to "come and let us reason together"?) What about those pastors who use rap sessions to vilify those who simply disagree with doctrinal statements and call them "infected" with evil? I have sat in on some of them myself and heard with my own ears the terrible unfounded claims against people that simply disagreed with some of the doctrine.(what kind of person does that?) There is a serious "elitist" mentality within the hierarchy of GGWO and it is harmful to the body of Christ. I just thank God that He is able to reach folks "in spite" of all the pride that causes division. There is not a lack of Godly love here but that of concern for the health of other body members and their positions as believer priests with personal accountability before God. No pastor is the head of the body. Jesus is and Him alone. } | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.76 |
GGWO defender, This is a good place to start: Why is GGWO on FACTNet? | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
HEY GGWO_defender, did any of the pastors there sexually assault you yet? I don't know maybe it's changed... one pastor felt me up whilst his wife and 3 kids where upstair napping...also one other paster took advantage of me because his excuse was that his wife was very ill and had'nt given him any for a few months...i being only 19 years old didn't know any better...so ....what do you think of GGWO now? still defending it? | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
GGWO_defender.. I bet you can't leave that church right now and go to an evangelical church whose beliefs are the same. If you can't do this than you know you're part of something dangerous...I don't know how old you are but my advice to you is...get out of there as fast as you can. There are plenty of other churches that believe if you accept christ as your saviour you are born again ....try leaving and see if other people try and stop you...this is one sure sign that it is a cult. God speed. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
what happened to you was wrong but 19 is certainly old enough to know better | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
you're an 'A' hole for saying that...you were not im my shoes at that time...I forgot there are also arrogant jerks on this site and you don't scare me as my purpose is to share my story and maybe help someone else and not be a judge of other people's lives. We are here to help not to judge. And if you're here to do something other than we know where you're coming from... | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.76 |
KNOW better? Like sexual assault is a CHOICE? | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
ghost-story, Just to help put it all in perspective, how high up in the leadership was the pastor? Did you report it to the leadership? If so, what did they do about it? Why am I asking? Unfortunately, this stuff happens every day in churches. And in gg, just because the perpetrator was a pastor does not really say he was a leader since they ordain just about anyone. But if the person was a leader, it says something about the corruption of the church. If he was not a leader and you reported it to the leaders who swept it under the rug, that also says something about the culture of corruption in the church. Of course, the fact they it is so easy to get ordained in the first place says something, too. | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.78.203 |
whatsup, lmoa. This is appaling that you would say these things to anyone who has been assaulted sexually by anyone. Nineteen is old enough to know better???? It somehow makes a difference that he may have been not a leader, JUST apastor because they ordain anyone??? I am seriously sorry ghost-story that these two have no compassion, are simply not on board with the truth about sexual abuse. IGNORE them and remember that some DO understand the damage sexual abuse does, we DO NOT excuse anyone who abuses ANYONE sexually or any other way. It is worse when the clergy is involved and anyone with a brain cell knows this. I do hope you have sought help from a rape crisis counceling center, a therapist (Christian or otherwise) and are on the way to healing. Many here do understand and care deeply about this vicious problem in churches of all denominations, and GGWO in particular. I will keep you in my prayers, ghost-story. Remember that people do care. | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 148 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.177.103 |
19 is still young and wet behind the ears.(impressionable) So, how can anyone not understand that someone that age can so easily be swayed by a predator that is encouraged by the system of covering?(covering up that is.) Never blame the victim because the next step in that mindless process is to claim they led them on and it's all their fault. I think they call that "transference". Even long into the twenties people are still discovering who they are and are "very" vulnerable to persuasive personalities. Don't be dissuaded from telling your story Ghost. There are many here who will "not" try to divert you away from revealing the heinousness of what took place. } | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
"Sexual assault" is very serious but it is only one aspect of this discussion. RJ and others seem to know a lot about that and they do not need any input from me. I am interested in looking more into the culture of corruption that allows it which I also think is relevant to this or any discussion involving gg. I asked the questions I did to try and sort out whether or not this particular incident was a gg leadership corruption problem or a ••••• man problem. So far, there is not enough information to decide. RJ said "It is worse when the clergy is involved and anyone with a brain cell knows this." That is exactly why I brought up the point about gg ordaining almost anyone. Not every one who has the title of pastor there gets the same recognition or trust. The bottom line for me to expose the leadership at gg of not being the holy men of God they claim to be. This could be an incident that does that. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Sorry, call me whatever names you want, honey, but 19 IS old enough to know better. Women are married and have children at that age. It is one thing to be impressionable and still discovering who you are...but if a married pastor "feels you up" or otherwise takes advantage of you...that is pretty clear cut. Shouldn't be any wrong impressions there....a much younger child would know that was wrong. That is not blaming the victim or condoning the sexual abuse in any way. It is simply saying there is no way a 19 year old wouldn't know it was wrong and should fight it, regardless of persuasive personalities. I knew at a much younger age what to do in a situation like that, and that pastor would have been missing at least a couple of teeth as well as hurting in very vulnerable spots. That pastor was despicable to be sure. But I just don't buy the statement "i being only 19 years old didn't know any better". Five years old maybe....not nineteen. It would be more honest to say "I was too intimidated to fight him off".... but you surely did know better | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
The 1st pastor I mentioned was a teacher of a bible school course. The 2nd pastor was not only a teacher but a very well liked preacher as well. I will not metion any names. I became attached to the 2nd pastor as well as many others since he was very well liked and I looked up to him. Since leaving the ministry I can look back now and see how naive I was at the time and very vulnerable. Today I would have made different choices and perhaps reacted/acted differently. But those pastors who were supposedly men of God (married ones at that), abused their authority and took advantage of me. I am over it now, but I will not keep my story a secret. I want others who are still in the ministry to keep their eyes open and beware of unacceptable behavior. Don't be blinded by your love of the ministry and keep some sort of sense of self. That is a good thing! | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
Whatsup, your ignorance is only eclipsed by your stupidity and your comments show clearly that you are a compassionless sadist-in-training. However, I will, since I am not like you, sincerely hope that neither you nor any child of yours will never experience the horror of sexual assault. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
how do you know we have not experienced that Am I a sadist because I would fight off a sexual assault..... or because I was honest about a 19 year old knowing enough to fight it off..... or because I would love to see the sexual predator get what he deserves instead of being passively submitted to.....actually I would love to see them castrated with a dull knife...how is that for sadism You don't know me but you feel qualified to evaluate my intelligence and my feelings...I don't know you either (such a loss) and although I do have an opinion based on your posts I choose not to express it. However, I will say this: you are right in that you are not like me | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
No, I said you're a sadist-in-training. A sadist wannabe. That opinion was drawn from the manner in which you regularly make statements to people that are completely devoid of human compassion or natural affection. But many say it is the endtimes and I suppose that is to be expected. It's not about the predator getting what he deserves (and that's the part that makes you stupid), it's about pontificating to the victim about how you could have handled the situation better (that's the ignorant part). | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
GGWO_Defender As far as believers being instructed to set aside an amount of money on the first day of the week, where in that verse does it say that the monetary amount has to be 10 percent of your gross pay????? It just says 'an amount' without implying any specific percentage. You have not established any connection to other verses that discuss tithing at all!! Let all giving be done cheerfully and not under cumpulsion. As far as your other point, the Bible says that its good for a man not to touch a woman and also that its good for a man not to marry a woman either. However, nothing in Scripture condemns either as sin. If It did, you would be in serious sin if you were married and touching your spouse. No touch love is yet another twist of Scripture of Carl Stevens that puts people in unnecessary bondage. As far as Carl Stevens himself goes, he is largely self appointed, self anointed, and full of himself instead of being a great man of God. Carl's theology is his own and is full of holes!!! He invented all his twists on touch not Thine anointed and never repeat a matter to coerce people to cover up for him while he continued to mislead people, take advantage of them and manipulate them to serve his own selfish interests. That is not a great man of God. That is a man that needs to be exposed publically for the spiritual safety of others!!! Just because some people did get saved at GGWO is not an excuse to look the other way and cover up for Carl or anyone in his leadership. Evangelism is always important, but so is the public exposure of the wolves in sheeps clothing among us. Such are the likes of Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller, John Love, and Steve Scibelli. Let these 'men' continue to be exposed as long as they see fit to take advantage of others and impose their own ideas upon them and pass them off as God's!!!! SIDETHORN | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.118.3 |
whatsup, if your 19 year old daughter came to you and said she had been molested by a pastor of your church, what would you say to her?'Honeytoo bad, you should have known better'? It is so sad to hear that blaming the victim is still they way that people protect abusers. You should be ashamed for your words, whatsup, and your attitude is sorely in need of alteration, education and some true Holy Spitit. Disgusting. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 106 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.40.2.121 |
ghost story, You should not keep silent. You should name names. If any of these guys are still with GG you should get a good lawyer, especially in light of the recent happenings in the Roman Catholic Church. I know of several others like you who are keeping silent and not naming names and what they're doing is allowing GG to continue on behind the facade of "we're going forward for God" that they perpetrate so well. We can learn that when you hit them in the pocket they reel--and they lose people--those on the inside who still have an ounce of conscience left in them that's not seared. | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Please spill the beans on these perverts. Chances are pretty high that if they did it to you that they've been doing it to others and probably still are today. Naming names publicly and suing their a$$e$ off can put a permanent end to what these creeps are doing to people. Don't let people pressure you to stay silent just because some people got saved in GGWO and that GGWO is supposedly a great ministry of God. GGWO is not a real ministry of God. It was started by a selfish unaccountable buffoon that spend many years trying to pass himself off as a modern day "apostle" with all this "delegated authority" from God that is never to be questioned. Let Carl be exposed for who he really is and even more let these jerks that abused you be exposed and forced to face the authorities. | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
It was back in 1987 and I do not remember the 1st Pastor's name but I know he taught 'Old Testement Survey'. The 2nd Pastor recently passed away so I choose not to mention his name. I think he suffered enough from the disease he died of. I just wanted to make sure GGWO_defender doesn't live with blinders on and trust authority on everything. I am sorry at the time I did not spill the beans but I was scared and instead I just left the place very disallusioned. I spoke with Pastor Stevens also about being so broke I couldn't find a job and had no food to eat. He gave me $5 and prayed for me, sent me on my way. I was in disbelief after that as well. Stuff just wasn't making any more sense to me so I left. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
RJ, if I were the type to expose all my family's personal business, I could tell you things that would surprise you, to put it mildly. However, I am not that type, tempting as it is at times to set people straight...it is simply not worth it. However, I will say that my daughter would never come to me at age 19 to say she had been molested, because at that age she WOULD know better. She would not allow herself to be a victim unless a gun was being held to her head or she was physically forced, which I do not think was the case here. I stand by my words, and if you want to twist them to say it is blaming the victim, that is your own choice. I have already explained it. There are victims who have no choice, and then there are victims who allow themselves to be victimized, but that is not to say they don't "know better". Not at age 19. There is a reason why even in court cases of sexual assault, they differentiate between a child and an adult. A 19 year old can certainly be raped at force, but as I said, this seemed to be more of a passive submission out of intimidation. And it is frustrating to know that sexual deviants get away with what they do many times simply because people will not fight back. That is how I feel and if you think that is disgusting, you are entitled to your opinion. Now I must get back to my sadist training classes. | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.161.140.130 |
It may surprise you that cult members, especially those who have been involved in the organization since childhood, because they had no choice, do not have normal or usual responses to situations such as we have been discussing, whatsup. Carl himself shattered the lives of many women who trusted him, believed he loved them and were used and dumped by him. They were lied about etc. How can you not see how self righteous you are? Rape is not simply forced sexual activity. Have you not heard of emotional incest? Have you not heard of mind control that leads to physical control? I really do not understand why you are so sure your daughter is somehow a better person because you, superior mother that you seem to believe yourself to be, believe she could not be fooled into a sexual situation by someone she trusts. Passive submission is what cult kids are taught. A 19 year old can be hurt as easily as a 6 year old. And yes, you are blaming the victim and you should be ashamed to call yourself a follower of Christ. Your lack of compassion is disgusting, demoralizing and a denial of truth. BTW, I have reported every single person I have information about as far as the sexual abusing of boys, girld, men, women of all ages to the proper authorities, in case you think I do not follow through with what I believe. It is people like you who keep this blaming the victim abuse continuing....you do not need sadism classes, whatsup. I feel so sorry for anyone who reads your foolish uninformed tripe...you blame them for the abuse they have suffered or are currently suffering. It is heaping abuse upon abuse! Please....see the damage you may be doing and STOP? I beg you. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
It has nothing to do with being a better person or superior mother, RJ...it is simple common sense and what any responsible parent would teach their child....if that is self righteous then so be it...I do not have to justify my opinions to you, and I don't care if you can't see past your tunnel vision of this, nor do I care what you think of me....I AM done talking about this now here, I dont have the time or inclination to go round and round about it, and it is pointless anyway | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.122.47 |
I differ with you, it is not pointless. The problem is a simple one: in a cultic situation, common sense is NOT a factor. Tunnel vision? I will accept that, as I am firmly convinced that all the models that can be quoted about what constitutes a cultic organization talk of cognitive dissonance, the interruption and negation of critical thinking, i.e. 'common sense'. Mothers and fathers who bring up children in a cultic organization such as GGWO are neglecting to teach their children this common sense if they are themselves totally sold out (I hate that expression, but it fits)to 'the ministry'. People of all ages in this cultic organization are sexually abused, spiritually, financially, educationall abused to a frightful degree. THIS is why I ave continued this conversation with you. It is still vitally important, even more now that Schaller is in charge, that we not lose sight of the dangers. | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
Ghost Story, your description of the two fits each of them like a fingerprint, and I agree with both your decision not to bother "going after them" and your perspective on the issue now that you have twice as much life experience as you did then. My first guess was that your initials would be NR, but there is a good chance I am mistaken since I graduated and left Lenox temporarily in '85, and then got married and left Lenox permanently (as it turned out) in '86, so if this all went down in '87... I'm not sure, but my guess is that "Defender" here is a male, and thus at less risk of getting felt up. Your critics here are what they are. If you are someone I studied with or went to Bible studies with back then I'd like to renew the contact. Check out "Rocket's" blog or my FN only hotmail address if you're interested. God bless, DH / D2 | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Here's a brief reminder/definitions of a few of the thought tools used to manipulate / control others. Even those old enough to know better. These excerpts all come from Wikipedia, but there are plenty more for each term. Cognitive dissonance --the tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance Groupthink --a mode of thought whereby individuals intentionally conform to what they perceive to be the consensus of the group. Groupthink may cause the group... to make bad or irrational decisions which each member might individually consider to be unwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink Doublethink --an integral concept in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, and is the act of holding two contradictory beliefs simultaneously and fervently believing both. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink Denial --a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimization) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.161.151.51 |
Thanks John. This is so necessary to remember. | ||
| isabella New member Username: isabella Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.143.230 |
What's, Just because you didn't know enough, when you were molested, (by your father, at an early age, perhaps?) doesn't mean that all women were molested at an early age and, so... when someone was with their pastor and he molested her, (like, when Ghost was molested by her pastor), she had no reaction....(like, with a slap or a kick...or worse) You told your daughter how to react because you knew what you should have done back then, but most women have no idea what to do. Age has nothing to do with it, except when you're a little tiny person, you cannot react, even if you know how too.... It's very good to warn your daughter, once you have seen the error of (HIS...NOT YOUR) ways, but you need to understand that there is no justice for what happened to you and you cannot fix it by blaming a 19 year old for not reacting the way you wished you would have done. I'm sorry, What's-Up, I have always been kind to your family, but you seem, not to be kind... you're not kind to anyone, especially yourself. Isabella | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Isabella, I don't know who you think that I am, but you are wrong in your assumptions, guesses, or whatever you would like to call it. I have never been molested in my life. My father was a great dad. So whatever sick presumptions you have drawn from my posts, you can dismiss them. I doubt if you even know my family, and it is quite clear that you don't know me at all. I stand by my opinions on this issue...age certainly does have something to do with it. I did not intend to post about it again at all, but it seemed necessary to set the record straight after your delusionary posts about me and my family. Try not to speak of things that you know nothing about (although then you may not be speaking at all) | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
I don't think GGWO_defender even cared to read my post but others have and I didn't expect such reactions. I didn't mean to stir up any anger between you guys. I guess I am still angry myself. And maybe I am more angry at myself than anyone else for allowing it to happen and for it to still bother me till this day. I should have known better. Anyway, I only think about it when I read FactNet posts that praise that church still and all I can think about is all the negative things that happened to me. Perhaps it's not like that anymore. Perhaps the place has changed what do I know? That doesn't mean I'll ever go back because I don't trust authority anymore in churches. I go directly to God himself and it works for me. dancer2 I am not NR. I do want to thank the ones that are very supportive, it means a lot to me. | ||
| hodeuon New member Username: hodeuon Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.160.68.34 |
Ghost_story, There's been a lot of anger on this board. You didn't stir it up. The anger was going to come out anyway. It's not your fault. GGWO hasn't changed. Lots of people have left over the past three years or so, but Schaller and Love are still preaching the same controlling stuff. I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you. There's nothing I can say that wouldn't sound trite to me, much less to you. It's hard to tell if people read what you post or if it makes a difference. Sometimes you hear later on. The one thing you can usually count on is that there are more people reading than posting, and you may have made a difference for some of them. Hodeuon | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
ghost, Not having been around in Lenox in '87, I'm not sure who's who. I do know, however, that one of the guys who used to regularly drop his pants in front of young ladies has been promoted to the top of the food chain in the "Bible College". No one has come forward, but I personally know of at least three women who were humiliated by this guy. He's still there. Somebody needs to take them to court. It worked for the Langs. It can work again. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
Think about it. Before Sandy Cove (which was brought about largely because of the Lang debacle) they had much deeper pockets than they do now with their dwindling coffers. They're more vulnerable now. One good hit could decimate the place. Limitations shlimitations, they don't want the publicity--at this stage they couldn't take the publicity. And Tommyboy is not the uniter and motivator that CHS was...Not by a long shot. | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 155 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.253.219 |
Whatsup says "old enough to know better". How old was Eve when she was beguiled by Satan? I bet she was physiologically older than 19 but still was able to be led into deception. (and she didn't have to struggle with a sin nature at the time) I deal with young people a lot and there is a naivete' that still lies within a person of that age.They want to believe the best even in the worst of situations and that leaves them open to "cognitive dissonance" more so than anything else. Sometimes when we get older we forget how things where when we where younger and "more easily" deceived. So we then begin to think that others should be where we are in their walk. This is completely unrealistic. I have seen young folks up into their twenties make naive decisions because of immaturity and susceptibility to deception. (something we are all subject to is deception regardless of age or knowledge) It is the human condition this side of eternity. Ghost, you are right that no one is above you in your relationship with the Lord. No pastor or elder or any other body member. You have personal access to the presence of God to come "boldly" before Him without the need of "another intermediary" other than Christ Himself. That is not the way of GGWO but it is the way of the Lord. } | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Well, apparently God thought Eve should have known better, because He sure held her accountable for being deceived | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
To openly accuse some-one's father of being a child molester with zero evidence just because you apparently do not like her opinion is at least as bad if not worse than anything said here about ghost being old enough to know better. Such a statement demonstrates an extreme lack of kindness and compassion. And secondly, ghost never said it was HER pastor, but a pastor and yes it can make a difference. I agree that one good hit could decimate the place, but it would have to involve one of the the three main leaders to be a good hit in my opinion. Any one else would be too easy to distance themselves from. I am not saying that the schaller, scibelli or love are not vulnerable to such charges since I think at least one of them is. | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 157 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.175.220 |
Did Eve know enough not to add to what the Lord said? No. She added that God said (which He didn't) not to even Genesis 3:3c "neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." The Lord never said not to touch it. So Eve added something in her naivete". Maybe Adam didn't explain to to her exactly the way he should have since it's obvious she didn't totally understand what He did say. Consiquences are consiquences regardless of what one knows or doesn't know.(cause and effect) }}} | ||
| isabella New member Username: isabella Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.143.230 |
LMAO said: "To openly accuse some-one's father of being a child molester with zero evidence just because you apparently do not like her opinion is at least as bad if not worse than anything said here about ghost being old enough to know better. Such a statement demonstrates an extreme lack of kindness and compassion. You are right, Laughing My AO: It was unkind to suggest that about What's Up....I'm sorry. I meant to say: Maybe, just because you didn't know enough, when you may have been, molested, (maybe) by your father, or someone else, (at an early age, perhaps?)...doesn't mean that all women were molested at an early age and...etc...etc... Sorry..I didn't mean to "Openly Accuse"...I'm sorry. | ||
| listener New member Username: listener Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 199.46.198.237 |
I've been trying to stay away and actually spend more time interacting with people that I really know and have a relationship with. Having read almost every post written here (even going back to the beginning when I first arrived), I need to not obsess about having every detail about things that are in the past for me. Many were offended by Whatsup's comments. I disagree with her, not because she was wrong, but because as was pointed out, because not everyone shares her frame of reference. I don't think that her comments were offered in sanctimoniousness, and think that much of the response was kneejerk based on everyone's established position. I have been in situations where I did not respond in what most people would consider a "normal" way. My "frames" (as the psychologist says) did not permit me to see the appropriate response. My response was incomprehensible to those who knew the "correct frame of reference" for the situation. I was lucky enough to "join" GGCF long after becoming a Christian. Yet I saw warning signs that I deliberately ignored, because I also saw the good happening in specific ministries, and in their acceptance of people often rejected in society. I saw love laid out in ways often not observed in other church bodies. So I ignored the strange doctrinal statements from above, the obvious pastor-worship, and the focus on the infallibility of Baltimore. The standing o's, the quoting of Steven's Tracts, I could overlook. I WANTED to find "a great church". But eventually, with the happenings in Winter/Spring 05, God got through to me. Thanks to those who focused (unlike me) on GGWODefenders points. I hope with all my heart that GGWOdefenders father is focussed on the work of the Gospel, and pray that God will bring people to Himself (not to GGWO) through his efforts. I would encourage GGWODef's father to consider using his calling in a ministry that focuses less on an earthly city in Maryland and more on the celestial one. | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
whatsup said, "what happened to you was wrong but 19 is certainly old enough to know better..." This entire board exists to address the aftermath of people who were primarily 19+ and apparently didn't know any better than become entangled in a religious system and eventually regretted it... As of this writing, at the top of the Factnet home page is a link to an article titled Classic “Stockholm Syndrome”… Concerning young women being sexually exploited and telling law enforcement agents "that they wanted to have sex with the older men," the article from the Winnepeg Sun asks, "What did he (the Attorney-General) expect from girls who’ve been raised in a cloistered community where men have all the power, independence and education is discouraged and females are brainwashed for years to believe their role is to breed and serve men." Just think how different all our life stories would be had we all "known better" simply because of our chronological age... Ghost Story, you have every right to feel however you feel. From what you've written here, occasionally you feel anger, and you have the right. It sounds as if most of the time this is all behind you and you live free from it. Good for you! Neil Young described the impotence of our bad dreams and memories in It's A Dream: It's a dream Only a dream And it's fading now Fading away It's only a dream Just a memory without anywhere to stay I hope the last 20 years have not had the cloud of Stevensism interrupting and keeping you from having a good life with healthy, normal relationships, good dreams and fond memories. And I hope the next 20 are even better, for you and for all of us! | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
I have seen almost 9 years battles with GGWO. I am worn thin how people repeat things they learned at GGWO's hands and once they leave defend the tactics to end GGWO. Accusing somebody of sexual offenses destroys people. If its true than fair game, if not than it is an injustice that can almost never be redeemed. I wondered why Gary Soulsman sat on his story, the amount of information, testimony, and real evidence was mind bogging. He spent hundreds of hours doing that work. As he said it would make for some great novels. But the degree in which people lied who were against GGWO has destroyed what would most likey hammer a nail into the ministry'coffin. The people who were involved in the ministry in Delaware who told the truth will be denied justice again and again. The same is true with Baltimore's church. We cannot lie our way into justice. I believe I closed my eyes in regards to how bad GGWO was for years out of pride. I mean how can I be so stupid? You have to believe those who work there now believe the same thing. That is, they are not in a cult. This is after all Gods ministry. I hope (neil) Young will remember. A Southern man don't need him around anyhow. I really like Mr. Young John but I got to tell you can spin it either way. It doesn't become truth by repeating it, it just feels that way. I remember having a discussion with a defender of GGWO in 97. He been subject to a deprogrammmer. I will go to my grave accepting some of the lies I learned then. I hope however my pride has come undone to the point I see it for what it is. Otherwise life is just a misery. Wanta kiss the sky, better learn how to pray, on your knees boy. Happy birthday K | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Golly gee, John Collins, is it really necessary to explain...well it seems it is... As RJ would say...{sigh} Seems to me that being "entangled in a religious system" is SLIGHTLY more subtle and deceptive than being sexually molested. It is easy to be fooled by someone twisting the bible, especially if you have no other training in it, at any chronological age. BUT having a pastor "feel you up" and coerce you into sex is clearly wrong to any 19 year old, and while they may go along with it, they do not believe it is right, as they might believe some erroneous doctrinal teaching. So it is not a fair comparison at all. Nor is it a fair comparison to quote your Winnipeg Sun article, which was written about a polygamous Mormon community. The women it speaks of are girls raised from birth to marry older men with many other wives, and have children with them. This is a lifestyle lived openly and not only condoned, but mandated to them. Not QUITE the same as a young woman being secretly molested by a pastor and having it covered up. I agree that being in GG could make a 19 year old emotionally vulnerable and even complacent toward a perverted pastor. But that is not the same as not knowing better. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 113 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
whatsup my dear, when will you learn that you contend with bears of very little brain? | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Whatsup, I understood your point. You've been very clear. I disagree with it, and wanted Ghost Story to know there were others who were unwilling to throw her under the bus for something that was done to her many years ago. People have been known to do all sort of foolish, dangerous, destructive, illegal or immoral things because they believed they were serving God. You can not condemn the victim by declaring "they should have known better." Isn't that the result of many types of religious indoctrination? People do the wrong things, often for what they believe are good reasons, specifically because they're deceived. So they don't make the right choices. They do or fail to do all sorts of things, despite the fact that they "should" know better. Do you know people who have done any of the following? Sad to say, I do... Some sold homes and businesses, and gave all the money away in exchange for empty promises of a home for life. They should have known better. Some left their studies at college to pursue "the highest form of education" from an unaccredited school named after a man with a diploma mill degree. Some of them now find themselves middle aged and still working entry level positions. They should have known better. Some spent years alienating their families and life long friends who loved them, even to the point of condemning them to hell because they dared speak against "God's anointed man." The fortunate ones woke up and smelled the truth before those they railed against died, and were able to reconcile with them. Whether that happened or not, they should have known better. Others forsook careers which could have supported themselves, their families, and even left them able to financially support legitimate missions work. Instead, they followed a higher call and often worked for far less than minimum wage. They should have known better. Some had sexual advances made towards them by men they'd been taught to always submit to, since the pastor is God's man, blah, blah, blah. The snake oil salesmen abused their position of "authority" to fleece the flock. Even married women in the 20s and 30s (or older?) were targets of this abuse, sometimes made to feel "special" because they were chosen for such an honor. People do the wrong things, often for what they feel are the right or good or noble reasons, specifically because they're deceived. So they don't make the right choices. They do or fail to do all sorts of things, despite the fact that they "should" know better. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 47 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
John Collins, apparently you do NOT understand my point because you are still not getting what I am saying. No one is trying to throw anyone under a bus or condemn the victim. There is a difference between "should have known better" and "DID know better....but did it anyway for reasons that are understandable". Most of the examples you cite are cases of "should have known better"....the situation we are discussing here is the other case, I believe. I can personally identify with one or two of the examples you use myself. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, but at least be clear on what you are disagreeing with. As many times as I have posted on this, what I am saying still seems to be misunderstood. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 114 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
Please... | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Thanks John for bringing up that point about that "highest form of education". Reminds me about how so many people were pressured into wasting all those years of their time at GGWO's cult college known as Maryland Bible College and Seminary. Many left jobs, other educational pursuits, and the company of loved ones to attend this unaccredited "Bible college" to earn worthless "degrees" and get their heads full of Carl's false teaching while being mislead to think they got the best Bible education there is. I saw several people I know getting pressured into attending this so called Bible college. Slick high pressure sales tactics were often used. Peoples' walks with God would be questioned if they didn't attend. Right there the peoples' love and commitment for God was used against them to get the GG leadership something it wanted. More bodies and more $$$ for their money making machine passed off as this college. People were expected to quit their jobs and spend years there to get a degree. They were told to just "trust God to work everything out". One guy I knew that joined quit a good paying job to move to Baltimore to get his MBCS "degree" and almost went flat broke as he struggled to get low paying jobs locally to help get himself through. All this while Carl and his cronies lived the life of wealth and luxury. To my knowledge he eventually left GGWO altogether and likely had lots of questions about things. Another person I knew that attended got so brainwashed that he became a different person. His own identity was sadly lost along with some very positive healthy interests in his life. He would just spout the Carl teachings like a robot that didn't really know what he was saying or how to think for himself. How sad. How sick that this "Bible college" is yet another money making machine to support the lavish lifestyles to the top leaders at GGWO. They love money and power and created a whole cult kingdom for their own personal use. Such is GGWO. They want at least ten percent of what you make on the job. They want at least ten percent of your allowance if you're a kid. They want you to invest all these additional dollars in "the highest form of education" at MBCS while they won't even be up front about tuition rates when they pressure you to attend. They manipulated Betsy Dovydenas to give them millions. The list goes on and on. GGWO is not there to serve and minister to the people. The people are expected to serve and minister to GGWO itself while being mislead to believe that is serving God. The cult continues to feed off the sheep as it consumes them. | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Sidethorn, I keep waiting for you to drop the "shy and meek" persona and tell us what you really think about bs-gg-chs & co.  | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
I think Carl, Tom Schaller, John Love and Steve Scibelli are friggin cult leaders that want to use people for their own personal benefit and pass off their cult as a fundamentalist church to sucker in more converts to their man made kingdom. They've enjoyed a lot of wealth and power at the expense of the people for many years and are showing no signs of repentance. GGWO needs to be continuously exposed as a cult as long as these slick charlatans continue to mislead, use and abuse people. I'd say more right now but I've got some other pressing things to take care of. I'll probably have time to post a bigger and more potent post later today. SIDETHORN | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.161.140.120 |
sidethorn, John is right....you really ought to tell us how you really think! *hug* I want to say thank you for the advocate you have been for kids who have been hurt emotionally, spiritually and sexually by these criminals. Thank you for adding your eoquent, energetic and angry voice to these discussions. I think I may have a handle on whatsup has been trying to say...please whatsup correct me if I have it wrong....are you saying that 19 is old enough to know better under NORMAL/non-cult cirumstances, but not necessarily old enough under the manipulative atmosphere of GGWO? If that is what you are saying, I almost agree with you, but 19 year old people in 'the world' can be used and abused and hurt without the ability to stop it too if they are not taught well. Yes? No? Maybe? | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.191.72.162 |
Here ya go. No political correctness. Nothing refined. No holding back. Carl is one of the most divisive, disgusting con men I've ever seen. He duped hundreds to think they were in the elite ministry by attending TBS/GGWO while all along they were living a lie, Carl's lie. A man made twist on mainstream Christianity to subtlely manipulate the people to follow him and serve him while tricking them to think they were serving God. Many were lured to give years of their lives to this so called ministry. Some gave up careers for GGWO. Many wasted years in their "Bible college". Hundreds gave huge amounts of money. The people were taught to never think for themselves, to never question anything or anyone, and to never speak up or make waves. THAT IS A CULT, PERIOD!!!!!! As for Carl Stevens, I think he's ... a liar, a coward, a slanderer, a betrayer, a hypocrite, a manipulor, a divider of people, a control freak, a con man that brainwashes others, a fraud that leads people astray, a complete a$$hole (jerk ain't strong enough), an egomaniac, a legend in his own mind, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a disgusting charlatan As for Tom Schaller, John Love, and Steve Scibelli, my feelings about them are quite similar to Carl's. Obviously Carl chose them as his sidekicks to help take advantage of the sheep. In return, they all got a lot of power and wealth as long as they served Carl and promoted his legacy. All these men know better, but chose to help Carl dupe the people and enslave them to serve "the ministry" over God. SHAME ON THEM ALL!!!! I have particular contempt for the actions of John Love. He knowingly decieved children and teens to believe the lies of Carl, to blindly follow and worship the youth leaders/pastors, to never question anything, to never think independantly or critically, and to put GGWO above everything and everyone else in their lives. John Love is the lowest scumbag of scumbags, since he mislead and brainwashed the weakest and most defenseless among us, the kids. In some ways he's even more of a coward than Carl himself. As for GGWO itself. This place is a bull$hit factory if there ever was one. A place to learn the false teachings of an arrogant freak in a toupee that puts himself above all others. A place to learn that serving a man is serving God. A place to learn to blindly follow, blindly obey, to divide people to maintain control, and to destroy the reputations of those who speak out or just leave. This place makes me want to puke!!! I wish it would be closed down forever and its leaders forced to face the authorities for anything they did that crossed the line. Seeing Frankford Plaza with a fence around it and all the whole place boarded up would make my whole year!!! Seeing a big wrecking ball smash the entire complex into the ground would be even better. What a great Youtube video that would make!!!! Some would say long live GGWO, I say let GGWO die. The world and evangelical Christianity would be better off without it. God does not need this organization to do His work. God has done so much in spite of GGWO instead of through it. If Tom Schaller and the rest of them would repent, then I'd change my mind. But if they just want to continue the disgusting legacy of Carl, let this piece of crap known as GGWO face complete destruction. In that case, let the Plaza be razed and built over with something else in a way one could never tell the Plaza ever existed at all. SIDETHORN | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Hi RJ, I cannot believe that I am still explaining what I mean on this...I thought I had been clear, but apparently not. This is getting as drawn out as the predestination debates. Anyway, I was saying that 19 is always old enough to know better, in or out of a cult. But in a cult or a "manipulative atmosphere" such as GGWO, one would be more likely to go along with things that they know they shouldn't. Being in a cult or manipulative church does not erase one's intelligence or sense of right and wrong, but it can make you suppress it and go against it. Kind of like the teenager who knows drugs are wrong but does them out of peer pressure. So I guess you cannot almost agree with me after all | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
You have no choice but to believe in free will! | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
Cordell: Once a convert to Calvinism, always a convert to Calvinism. Sidethorn: One word - catharsis. Has therapeutic value only until it becomes an addictive behavior. I have a few personal bones to pick with Tom S. as well, but as Luke Skywalker said of his dad, "There's good in him..." I consider him to be no bigger hypocrite than the politicians who say to their idealistic base, "I agree with your convictions, but I can't take that stand publicly because that would keep me from staying in power, and I have to stay in power to move things in the sort of direction we all want." It was in 1982, returning to "home base" from Stockholm, signing on to fight the "evil" embodied in Steve Quinlan, that Tom "sold out" in that particular way. But for those of you who missed it, the historical fact of the matter is that it was really because of the moral standing, intensive work ethic and working class accessibility of two men, Jack Leonard and Tom Schaller, that the place didn't close down after the Martin report. Of course keeping it going may not have been a good thing, but before judging that I recommend reading the book behind the film, "The Remains of the Day". D2 | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I think the comparison of schaller to the hypocrite politicians nails his character perfectly. For me, I expect more by way of Christian character from church leaders than I do politicians and therefore place a higher standard on them. And IMO, the willingness to sell out to the cause to the point that he was willing to lie about others and characterize as evil those who left the church over honest differences is at the root of gg's problems. The Martin report called it the "ends justify the means ethic". | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
Darth Quinlan: "I am your father D2, come over to me!" D2: "I will, my Daddy!" | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
Do I bother responding to that? Yeah well... Steve was one of the few bus captains of SB who refused to chip in $0.25 to have his bus swept out by yours truly each week (Elwin's arrangement) because it was too much of a financial hardship for him back then (?!). For many other reasons as well he and I were never particularly close. When he made his famous declaration from the pulpit, "I don't like people," I sort of thought, "O.K., that explains it." I do like people, so he and I will always be a bit different from each other. That being said, he is one of the more intellectually honest people to have participated here, even if he is more on the Soddomite than the Cromwellite side of the divide within your denomination. It's his son, the Arizona fireman, that I'd be interested in having a beer with some day so as to hear about his current perspective on life. But I'd actually put your boys Noel and James higher on the list of those I'd like to have that sort of chat with. All of us have had some unusual religious elements in our childhoods, but all of us are still personally responsible for what we've done with our lives, and AFAIK all of us are happy to take it at that. D2 | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
GGWO appears to be in a prosperous mode right now. d2's thoughts on TS and his work ethic might be on target, more so the budget discipline of running a business as opposed to a free for all. The amount of guys who did relatively nothing when I was there in 97 is overwhelming. People who did work got paid only slightly better. whatsup view concerning knowing the difference is a fair one. If my daughter came to me at 22 said she been molested I ask when? If she said now. I say that isn't possible. I say harassed, taken advantaged of, etc. One of the people I know in this world was molested by her great uncle at 6 repeatedly.Her grandmother sat back and knew of it, and defended the guy. He has remained scott free and there is no justice in this world. Ironically I know some GGWO people who will still defend what her family has done to her, her children even present day. Like last week. The guy will never get in trouble. People, Pastors included, Pastors wives included, Good God I could go into details of who knows what have the same feelings for people on staff at GGWO right now. But the focus on elements that may be lousy but not outright wrong is disturbing. Think I like where my kids are in school? Talk about easy targets.. How GGWO treats people is more important than its subtle theological twists. You could never convince me those in charge agree on theology now. The differences in theology between the elders in theology in 97 was not slight. Its a decade after and those guys lives, pulpits etc illistrate they have been far from one another. Jim and others can say Theology defines the views on power and such, thats just a cop out. I see a striking difference in theology now between GGWO leadership and what was. I see zero difference in how power is used. You don't need theology and/or a bad understanding of scripture to rape and for that matter rape peoples minds. It seems you need a DICK and some lessons in mind control. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 143 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
"Didn't know any better"? I don't know either. Are we going to get into definitions of "is" and "know"? I hope my oldest knows the difference and I would hope old men at GGWO know what is right and wrong about hurting or taking advantage of people rather it be in court or in the bedroom. But it seems 50 ish men know little. According to my understanding this is what I have learned. When a 6 year old girl is raped by an old man and he doesn't get prosecuted that is ok, when a girl is 16 years old beaten to a pulp by her family it is ok to abandon her, and when she is 20's it is ok to beat her down from the legal and family side because she falls into being against the ministry. Who wouldn't be against the ministry? Can you imagine bleeding out for 3 days and your family looking the other way at 6 years old? Can you imagine abandoning her at 16 and then encouraging others to hurt her throughout her life. God Bless GGWO for its kind heart. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 144 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Hmm, gee I hope I didn't silence you folks with remarks about definitions of "is" and "know" being an issue here. Scary to think we might have to call Billy to help explain what "knows" means.I figure he could help with "knows" and "is". I believe in preemptive explanations after multiple years of assault here. Yes I personally know somebody who was raped for multiple days at the hands of her great uncle when she was little, no the person has zero to do with GGWO (well I don't know the person who did the rape, just the person who got raped). Yes the cops were involved and her family even agreed it happened, but they help clear her uncle and like. Yes its sad but it happens all the time. Yes she got hurt again and again by the same people. Umm. At 16 She was abandoned by the people she lived with by the encouragement of people involved including a 2 GGWO Pastors, one that was a missionary then, heard he is in America now, his daughter who actually cussed out the girl to some degree, and many in the GGWO family.The girl was living with a family connected to GGWO. The mother/wife of the family is in GGWO now. I have voice mails, emails and other information which leads me to believe that people are trying to be involved in hurting her more now in regards to her family from people at GGWO. I actually wrote them and asked them to tell me it wasn't so. But the voice mail I listened to concerning it was pretty convincing. The email more so. I never heard back and frankly I figured the person I wrote would have responded pretty quickly if it was not so they are involved. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
Might as well be talking on... | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Eating BBQ iguana? I feel a hot wind on my shoulder..Just can"t understand just what does he say.. Nah its closer to your home Jim..Mine to the north speaking French.Bout 30 miles... | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Dammit Jim (ever see old Star Trek JF?) I get accused of being so stealth. Ohh I wish I had a half pence for all the times I got accused of saying something that was rumor and unsubstantiated. My best predictions have been the rumors. LOL All those things people say they can show happen but really its just a bunch of allegations. Well there are court records, and testimony and now even modern day stuff for the involvement. Not even Mr. Lang had this much fun. Or had this much evidence. Oh and I am not minimizing A.L suffering. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 147 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
If you like to help this young lady, show people you are willing to make a statement against those are from GGWO please let me know. I can put you in touch with her lawyer and social worker. There are three hearings coming up this next 30 days. | ||
| ggwo_defender New member Username: ggwo_defender Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 24.29.72.68 |
We are Given one life on this earth. God has set us to be Born in this day in age In a world of fear and Hate. The Greater Grace World Outreach is a great Church to come against the prejudices and Terror from Satin and Sin of this world . Ya some fall and look to highly on pastors in there walk but we are all one Flesh no one is Loved more by God we all have our own Walk with God and this Church helps people find there walk and how to study the Word because "with out a Vision the people parish" Proverbs 29:18 So past Stevens had a vision to spread Gods word and many followed and Jesus had him build a college were Godly men and Women come out to be strong in their Faith in Christ Jesus through the Word and a Personal relation ship with Christ to spread the Word of Christ Jesus to a lost and dieing World. | ||
| ggwo_defender New member Username: ggwo_defender Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 24.29.72.68 |
We shall "know No man After the Flesh" 2 Cr 5:16 We are all Saved by the Blood of his Son Christ and we must do all thing according to his Will be cause we are here to save the lost the Time is Very Short Find Gods will and be found Holy in his Eyes because we all sin but are Forgiven Rom 6:1-23 (Amplified Bible >>>) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%206:1-23;&version=45; . We must stop hateing our Brothers and Sisters in Christ and Start hateing the Thought of People and our Loved ones in Hell because we spend to much Time here on FACT.Net talking about who has Fallen to day or who has Sined and Fallen Short But I Know God Sees us All as Holy and His Sons and Daugters with out fault. We must lead people to christ not Fight. Jhn 15:17 "These things I command you, that you love one another." We are all saved by Grace. I Love you all God Bless | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 223 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.227.136 |
GGWO, in responce to your "August 20, 2007 - 3:01 am:"post. --- Those that have come out of GG have had to unlearn false doctrine and learn that no one has any authority over another body member nor does any have a "greater anointing" than any other. There is zero accreditation if you choose to attend another College. That is a red light for those seeking accreditation. Tom Schaller recently stated something about being "odedient to the body". That's not a problem with you? There's nothing in scripture telling us to be obedient to the body.Instead we are "commanded" to be obedient to "Christ". Part of this obedience is to protect other members of the body of Christ against false teachings such as "touch not","pastoral authority","one pastor teacher for life". Shall I continue or do you yet realise the importance of being a "watchman"? What say you about pastors who enable others or engage in child molestation themselves and then cover it up? Are we to "just let God deal with it"? Or do we get involved and do the right thing? Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. :16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. :17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Do you think this is something that God is just joking about? More than one pastor has brought this out in line with scripture as well as many body members. Protecting children is right and righteous. Defending enablers and abusers is sin. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. } | ||
| hodeuon New member Username: hodeuon Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.160.68.34 |
Hi, Ggwo_defender, I would like to paraphrase your argument to make sure I understand what you are saying. Does this pretty much cover it? 1. GGWO is good because it opposes Satan and sin. 2. Some fall and look too highly on pastors. 3. GGWO is good because it helps people find God and helps them with their walk. 4. Carl had a vision of spreading the word. Jesus told him to build a Bible college. 5. “We know no man after the flesh.” It’s pretty clear to me the way this statement is used, it’s felt to convey something of great import and gravity. What I *hear* is that because of the overall mission (which is good) you turn a blind eye to things the leadership does wrong. 6. We have to stopping hating other believers and start hating that unsaved people are going to hell because we spend too much time on FACTNet talking about who has sinned. 7. It doesn’t matter who has sinned because God sees us as holy. My response: 1 & 3 - I do think that The Bible Speaks and Greater Grace World Outreach were used to bring many people to Christ. Some were discipled. This is all good. But there was bad mixed in there, too. In last night’s sermon in Baltimore, the speaker talked about believers having two natures, saint and sinner. If you believe that, then why is it so difficult to see that while GGWO did some good, it also did some evil? Instead of being satisfied with some good and some evil, ought we not aspire to further sanctification? The verse just before the one GGWO loves to quote says, “And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,” (Hebrews 10:24) 2 – If some look too highly on pastors and that is a known problem, then shouldn’t the pastors do something about it? They know their brothers are stumbling, and yet they let it go on. It’s not enough if the pastors keep it in perspective: “And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.” (1 Corinthians 8:11-12) | ||
| hodeuon New member Username: hodeuon Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.160.68.34 |
4. Carl Stevens claims to have had a vision from God. In fact, in the sermon “Corporate Pentecost”, he claimed to have received the vision on five separate occasions. “But there’s one thing that night that He told us that I’ll never forget when most of these things came for the first time, and He gave them to us on five different occasions, adding too.” However, there are specific reasons those of us here do not believe this. First, the published account of Carl’s experience at Worthley Pond does not have “that certain sound”. In fact, it reads very much like Charles Finney’s conversion experience, right down to the phrase “liquid waves of love”. Since Carl Stevens adopted much of Charles Finney’s theology and evangelistic practices, this suggests to me that the published account of what happened at Worthley Pond was similarly borrowed. Second, the test of a prophecy is whether is comes true. “And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' -- when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) “Corporate Pentecost” was preached Sunday, August 10, 1975. In it, Carl Stevens states, “God will do things in the next few months, twenty-four to thirty, that will totally astonish you and when He’s all said and done He’s going to have a living epistle left to reign and this living epistle even now living will go and take this corporate life message into the entire world. But He’s going to operate on cancer, He’s going to operate on diseased cells, He’s going to bring in the cross again and again and again. And that cross, not I and not you – that cross will separate hearts.” What happened by August 10, 1978 to fulfill this prophecy? Or what about the prophecy of an incident at the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant? Third, Carl’s account of what God said to him lacks “that certain sound”. Again in “Corporate Pentecost”, Carl says God said, “I will call you out to put you in places that have been tread down by the feet of man. You will travel over roads of religion and roads where legalism and law and stifling religion has been before. But as you travel and walk over these roads, you will walk by faith. And I will give you a baptism of love, and this love will be shed abroad in your hearts experientially. Not only will I give the body a baptism of love but I’ll give the body a revelation on grace that no other ministry has ever had in the Northeast.” Let’s look at this. “Places that have been tread down” – that’s King James English. This makes me instantly suspicious that someone is trying to sound like God. God is pretty well-known for talking to people in everyday language. The New Testament is in koine (common) Greek rather than in formal Greek, for instance. Next, “this love will be shead abroad in your hearts experientially”. There’s biblical language with a twentieth-century theological term tacked on. Now, all of a sudden, God <does> talk on Carl’s level? Finally, “I’ll give the body a revelation on grace that no other ministry has ever had in the Northeast.” No other ministry has had? Not the Pilgrims? The Puritans? Jonathan Edwards and the First Great Awakening? No, this is an explicit claim to new revelation. However, it’s already been established that Carl Stevens isn’t a prophet. Plus, “in the Northeast”. Again, after starting out in King Jamesese, now God is supposed to be using American regionalisms? | ||
| hodeuon New member Username: hodeuon Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.160.68.34 |
5. We know no man after the flesh. It’s pretty clear to me the way this statement is used, it’s felt to convey something of great import and gravity. What I *hear* is that because of the overall mission (which is good) you turn a blind eye to things the leadership does wrong. By “wrong” I do not mean someone got his feelings hurt. I mean that Carl Stevens had multiple affairs while preaching no touch love. I mean that pastors were send back into the pulpit after having affairs. In the name of rebound, not only were the consequences of sin ignored but nothing was done to keep it from happening again. There were irregularities with finances. See IN RE THE BIBLE SPEAKS, 869 F.2d 628. There was harassment and abuse of employees. See “A Secretary’s Story”, www.carlstevens.org/subpage17.html. 6. We have to stopping hating other believers and start hating that unsaved people are going to hell because we spend too much time on FACTNet talking about who has sinned. This is a guilt trip. First it assumes that people who post on FACTNet do not share their faith. It assumes that they can’t possibly be doing so because since they’re posting like this, they must therefore be evil. Again, that’s utterly illogical by Greater Grace’s own theology. You guys preach two natures in the believer. How can you then assume that if someone does something evil (granting your premise for the moment) that they cannot also be doing good (sharing the Gospel)? But I don’t grant your premise. I don’t hate you. I hate that Greater Grace is teaching false doctrine, that it tolerates the destruction of families as acceptable collateral damage as long as the ministry accomplishes its objectives, that Greater Grace itself turns people away from the Gospel by having one public standard and a different private standard, that it “marks” those who leave and go to another church. 7. It doesn’t matter who has sinned because God sees us as holy. This is the same argument that the Cerinthian Gnostics used, that since God has saved us, don’t worry about holiness, just give the flesh what it wants. But Jesus said, “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48). We are called to practical, experiential sanctification as well as positional sanctification. Hodeuon | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
GGWO's twisted teachings on not knowing anyone after the flesh are yet another attempt to coerce the people to refrain from holding their GGWO pastor teachers and in particular the top leadership in Baltimore accountable for their actions. Its all about covering up for self serving leaders that want to do whatever they want and never have to be responsible for their actions. Whatever happened to the laws about sowing and reaping in the Bible?? At GGWO, these laws exist for the people but not the leadership. What about the civil governments, their laws and law enforcement that were instituted by God?? Do the top leaders at GGWO really feel they're above the law too??? HMMM. For example, if you have a pastor that molests little girls and then claims he repented and insists that you cover up for him because we're not supposed to know anyone after the flesh, what do you do??? You do the right thing and turn that pervert in to the authorities, period!!! People like that belong behind bars along with those who knowingly cover up for them!!! You do the crime, you do the time!!! That's God's way when you take all of Scripture into account. The covering up of criminal acts and especially crimes against children can never be tolerated anywhere including the church!!! | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 224 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.179.108 |
GGWO Defender, you need to discern the body of Christ. Every time we as believers place any man on a pedistle above others it causes serious spiritual issues.(no matter who the man is) A true Spirit led leader never turns attention to themselves but to Christ alone. This is a form of "humility". There is only "one" mediator and His name is Jesus. Follow no man. } | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Exposing cults and the wolves in sheep's clothing among us is not hate, its love. Its love for the people that could get sucked in, exploited and led astray by these so called "ministers" that prey upon the uninformed and vulnerable. The fact remains that God does not need Greater Grace World Outreach to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth. God is using individual people (in spite of GGWO) to spread the Good News. There are sincere Christians inside and outside GGWO that God is using. God is powerful enough to save people whether or not some people spend some time on Factnet exposing the truth about GGWO being a cult disguised as an evangelical church. It is not hate to expose charlatans like Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller, John Love, and Steve Scibelli as power hungry exploiters of people that lead them astray into false teachings that put them in bondage to their cult. It is love to spread the truth that sets the people free to leave the bondage of Greater Grace behind and live free in Christ out there in the real world out there that GGWO shuns. GGWO truly does not discern the true body of Christ which is really the body of all true believers in Christ everywhere. But the GGWO leadership in its arrogance and pride insists that its own body is the real body of Christ and all others are questionable at best and really should be avoided. Its all about who blindly submits to the teachings of GGWO and its leadership and who doesn't. Those who submit are the true body and those who don't are evil and off. Carl and his squad of dictators have set themselves as the standard by which to judge all believers by. They think they have it all figured out and want to draw attention to themselves instead of directing peoples' attention to God Himself. This whole submission to body thing at GGWO is really about keeping people under the control of the leadership itself. Since the true body as defined by GGWO is the group of people that blindly submit to Carl and company, submitting to the body at GGWO means submitting to those who believe in Carl's teachings and enforce them. In the end that is essentially submitting to Carl's teachings yourself. Carl set himself up as the modern day intermediary between people and God. He set himself as the standard of truth as he insisted his interpretations of Scripture were so close to perfection they were never to be questioned. Carl attracted peoples' trust, loyalty, devotion, and worship to himself instead of God. Carl basically set himself up as an idol in many peoples' lives. An idol for people to blindly lean on, serve and obey. Now you have Tom Schaller, John Love, and Steve Scibelli carrying on this same old legacy of madness, idolatry and pastor worship. It is sick and it is wrong. A true shepard or pastor would never do this. They would lead the people to look to Christ Himself, serve Him, love Him, and worship Him directly. Christ is the only true intermediary, there is no other. People like Carl Stevens that want to place themselves as intermediaries are leaches that want to live off the people instead of serve them. Best to avoid them and expose them as the frauds that they really are. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
GGWO defender writes: Ya some fall and look to highly on pastors in there walk but we are all one Flesh no one is Loved more by God we all have our own Walk with God and this Church helps people find there walk and how to study the Word because "with out a Vision the people parish" Proverbs 29:18(sic) Tell me, GGWOdefender, have you ever read this verse in its entirety? Or perhaps in another version? Since you quote only the first half of the passage, do you think that the writer intended the verse to be used to castigate those who were not forward planning? Is that really what it means in this context to have no 'vision'? What does it mean to 'perish' in the context? Have you merely put forward half of the writer's thought and then misconstrued it to support your argument? What does that say about your approach to the Scriptures, particularly since you emerge from a 'ministry' that was once known as 'The Bible Speaks'? Are you in your use of this passage actually allowing the Bible to do any speaking at all? Please do us the favor, in your wisdom, to interpret the 'b' portion of this passage, or does that not fit into your 'theology'? Hody writes: “Corporate Pentecost” was preached Sunday, August 10, 1975. I was at that service. Kinda makes you wonder what was not 'corporate' about the 'first' Pentecost. | ||
| rjfernalld Junior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.244.230 |
"I was at that service. Kinda makes you wonder what was not 'corporate' about the 'first' Pentecost." I'd like to have a nickle for every time that thought has crossed my mind since being out of TBS/GGWO... | ||
| goldie New member Username: goldie Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 76.24.238.127 |
This letter was addressed to the church we were attending. We feel this is relevant today for the GGWO Ministry. December 16, 1998 Dear Brothers and Sisters whom I Love in the Lord, Christmas Greetings.. Better still, Greetings in the Name of the Our Lord Jesus Christ! Isn't Christmas every day for the believer?! Every day we have the gift of His Son.. May we be a delight and a gift to Him, not only on this day but forever! The Pastor at the church that we were attending said something in his message on Persistent Prayer that helped me to understand and see how God has worked in my own experience, and why we should never give up asking, seeking or knocking. God clarifies what His will is on a given request and also makes clear to us our motives for asking. Quoting his message, "We should be persistent in prayer, because persistence gives us clarity in the midst of confusion as we continue to open our mind to what it is we are asking.. As you pray for a particular issue over a long period of time, your understanding and comprehension of it after a year is much different than when you began to pray for it." That's so good and so true! I can certainly attest to the importance of this in my own life.. May God help me to put into words what's so on my heart. When God starts waking me up in the middle of the night with a burden to share, I have learned to write it down. As some of you know, our family, including my Mom (who went home to be with the Lord ten years ago), lived in an apartment in Lenox, MA., on the college campus of the headquarters of what was then called "The Bible Speaks," of which I now believe is called "Greater Grace Ministry," headquartered in Baltimore, Maryland. Very appropriately named, for it practices a "grace" that goes beyond Biblical grace. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" As one ex-pastor told us, "When the pastors got together they would say to one another, "Let's go out on the town and appropriate a little more grace." Meaning.. going to X-rated movies, taking women with them who weren't their wives, taking drugs, and so on. They excused themselves, saying they were only human. They had been taught to rebound in their minds after doing something wrong, because the finished work of Christ "covered it positionally." Sort of like the Mafia going to confession in the Catholic Church and then sending the "deceased" a large bouquet of flowers after the murder.. Both of which operate under a false sense of absolution. Continued: see next post} | ||
| goldie New member Username: goldie Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 76.24.238.127 |
Needless to say, my heart and mind were so troubled. We did not know these kinds of things were going on, but the mocking spirit and superior attitude of some of the leaders and your pastors including our oldest son who was made a youth pastor, was so disturbing that I didn't know what to do. (I knew that my son's heart was not broken before God in true humility.) What I was hearing from the pulpit and what I saw happening, was totally the opposite. My mind was short-circuiting. I asked a few of the women if they would pray with me. We would get up very early before dawn and go up to the main building on the campus grounds and go into the room where the people gathered around Carl Stevens as he did the "Telephone Time" radio broadcast. The room was empty at this time, so we got on our faces before God and began to pour out the burdens that were on our hearts. We did this for several days a week for many weeks. And I believe God heard those prayers. I wrote on a file card the fol lowing prayer: "I pray, God, that the doves wise up." I still pray that prayer, maybe not in those words, both for myself and for the Church. Our God is well able to deliver from the hand of the fowler. None of us understood then what was going to take place and what God was going to do. I know that our whole family and many others would not have been delivered from the tentacles of that diabolical ministry if God hadn't opened my eyes and kept reminding me of His Word, especially "I will have no other gods before me." The leaser had such control over the hearts and minds of the people that even when you were shown the facts and what God's Word was actually saying, you couldn't receive it. When I tried to help those who were so dear to me to see the truth, some of them would say in essence, "I love you, and I love "pastor (Carl Stevens) with God's unconditional love, and whatever "pastor" says is right from God's throne." -Yuck- So much for loving the Truth!! Others wouldn't speak to me if I questioned "pastor" or their ministry. I was going against "God's delegated authority." I was touching "God's anointed." I was self-righteous and a Pharisee because I had some honest questi ons of wrong-doings. He was a master at putting you on trial, instead of acknowledging his own sins. Cont: see next post | ||
| goldie New member Username: goldie Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 76.24.238.127 |
You see the same with Clinton, our President. He puts everyone else on trial. These men are masters at discrediting and intimidating you. It was a nightmare. Someone you trusted so much outright lies to you over and over again. I repented before God and told Carl Stevens over the phone as well for putting him in a place that only belongs to Jesus Christ. President Clinton now is apologetic, supposedly even before God, yet at the same time refusing to admit that he lied, and has his lawyers scrambling to his defense. The truth and the facts mean nothing. I see this happening in so much of Christianity today. God help us! When God took the scales from my eyes, my head was like a slot machine: all the things I couldn't understand over the years, things I had put on the shelf, were coming to light, and everything was coming up lemons! I did what Jesus said to do in Matthew 18. I spoke to Carl Stevens three times and the 1st conversation was with great fear and literally trembling These conversations were also revealing for me to see how deep my own sin was and how he did not know how to tell the truth when I questioned him about the control he had over peoples lives and the wrong doing it caused. I said to him, "Where are your deacons and elders that I can go to for help?" He started naming a few he thought I might accept, because he knew I knew that all the men he had around him were "Yes!" men, and when he said "Jump!" to them, they would say "How high?". The fact was, he didn't have any elders or deacons. I finally asked him, for the sake of Jesus Christ, to give up the kingdom that he had built for himself. He said he would, but then proceeded to select a whole board of elders and deacons just for me, all our friends and people we knew, and turned them all against us, except for one. I had written a letter to all the people on and off campus, plus the teams that the ministry had sent out all over the world to let them know what was happening. The one elde r who stayed loyal to us feared something terrible was going to happen if I didn't stop, because he had heard the wicked mischief they were planning. I told him I didn't care. The letter hit like a bomb. I had no idea. We were in Vermont by this time, and God protected us that December of 1980 with the weather. It was so cold that it went to -42 F. Three times he tried to send his henchmen and they never made it. The phone rang off the hook with people calling who had been so taken advantage of and were so oppressed.. That following Wednesday, Carl Stevens told the whole congregation that were fellowshipping with demons and that he had umpteen lies against you and then proceeded to ex-communicate us. Praise God! We were told this by some friends that had been present at the meeting. Cont: see next post | ||
| goldie New member Username: goldie Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 76.24.238.127 |
My prayers are for the naive and innocent ones. I wrote a letter to Christian Research Institute and tried desperately to get help from other ministries to mediate this situation for all of us. To no avail. The leaders all covered one another or did not want to get involved. There were only a couple of individual pastors that tried to help. This is why I can't express to you enough that only going to God to handle every matter and only in humble prayer will bring His results.. He alone is God, we are not. There is a real devil who works through evil men and women to destroy Gods people. He doesn't play fair. There is such a dark cloud of deception over the whole world and a good deal of the Church has become so worldly that it has been seduced and has succumbed to deception as well. If there is one thing I have learned from this experience.. it is that I can be deceived very easily. I am very vulnerable. Jesus said, "Watch and pray that you enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak," May we not take these words lightly, but obey what He says to do. He knows, you know. When I hear these messages on prayer and how important it is that we pray to our God, pray without ceasing, in our personal walk and corporately, I can't thank God enough that you understand and know this. And I pray to God that you will continue to call upon Him for everything. Otherwise, as one man so aptly put it, "There will be much movement, but no progress"... It is only because of God's mercy that He heard my cry and the conviction of the Holy Spirit was finally able to get through. His faithfulness when we call upon His Name is beyond words. It sometimes takes God a long time to get through to us. He's so patient, and even works all our mistakes for good if we love Him above all.. When you’re in a cult you not only give up the guidance and conviction of the Holy Spirit to the leader, but you are so busy doing ministry work that you don't have time to think and pray quietly alone with God Our Father and really meditate on His Work and study it for yourself.. so that you will take up your cross daily and follow Him and His Word, not a man and a ministry. Jesus said if we continue in His Word, we are truly His disciples. Much is crying for our attention today. I call it the invasion of the mind-snatchers. It's like the demons have straws and are sucking our brains out through our entertainment centers by the sin and worldliness on TV, computers, music, books, and so on, they invade our thoughts, rather than God and His Work being on our mind as we think of things above. It is bread and circus all over again. I've always told our sons, "Garbage in, garbage out." It takes so much of our time away from God and doing His will upon the earth. Instead of appreciat ion and adoration for the One who sacrificed His Life for us, many Christians get more excited about sports and StarTrek, than they do about Our Wonderful Lord. How we need to pray for each other, speak the truth in love and obey His Word, no matter how much it hurts.. And it can be so painful, as I'm sure you know. Cont: see next post | ||
| goldie New member Username: goldie Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 76.24.238.127 |
I think of JESUS.. "Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared. Though He was a Son, yet learned his obedience by the things which He suffered, and being made perfect He became the Author of eternal salvation unto them that obey Him." Doesn't that make you appreciate Our Lord? The word supplication is defined as asking for something humbly. I hear so much arrogant praying these days. I am not talking about technique driven prayer but prayer made from a heart that is made low before the Lord. The more I read God's Word, the more I see the trouble we're in, and few seem to realize it. Humanism, psychology, unconditional love, false unity at the expense of the Truth, and so on, have invaded the Church today and made a provision for our flesh, denying the only remedy for curing us (the Cross!). Our old nature will never do anything good. It can't. It's so self-centered, even in the good it does. God never gets the glory. Spiritually applied, Isaiah 22:14b says, "Surely this iniquity shall not be purged in you till you die, sayeth the LORD God of Hosts." We need to reckon the old nature crucified with Christ. I'm not saying anything you don't know already, but generally speaking, the cross isn't being applied in our daily lives, moment by moment. We are not "working out our own salvation in fear and trembling." Therefore, many Christians are powerless to overcome sin and can neither love God nor man, and many are either giving up or turning to the occult for power in the ir lives. We need to get so serious with God, that we won't think of taking a step without going to Him first in Prayer. You know what grieved me so much (besides the devastation of knowing the truth) afer we came out of the cult, was that so many who had come out were not willing to pray together for God to give us wisdom on how to help those who were still in. Despite much encouragement their minds were so fried and they were so humiliated to think they went into such a mess. They just wanted to be left alone. According to one man that was used by Carl Stevens to fleece people, He said, "Carl Stevens would steal the eye balls out of his grandmother if he could." When I asked him to help the others still in the Bible Speaks he said "don't pull my chain, I'm not my brothers keeper." Instead of turning to God and getting on our faces before Him and confessing any wrong-doing on our part, many went back to the world for comfort. Some went to psycho-babble therapy, instead of continuing to fo llow the Lord and His Word. Cont: see next post | ||
| goldie New member Username: goldie Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 76.24.238.127 |
I used to do a mothers' study in this "ministry," really out of desperation because many of the parents didn't believe in any kind of discipline and their children were running wild. The parents were too busy "ministering". They believed in giving their children "grace" all the time, when what they actually needed was the law. They said, "Kids will be kids." I tried to share with the mothers that they weren't a decoration in the home, but were to train up their children. I didn’t know what I was doing, and I'm not a good speaker, but again, I was so troubled by what was happening that I tried to help out and did it anyway. We went through a good deal of Proverbs. It's loaded with gems on child rearing. I'm not sure how much I was able to impart. God only knows. But I myself was helped by getting back into God's Word. God was trying to show me so much through that Book. But I was nummer than a hammered thumb. When you're under that spell, it's hard to figure things out. He had to put us in Vermont to clear the cobwebs out of my head. And then the book of Proverbs opened up to me. What I began to do when I was teaching this class, was to take what I was hearing from the pulpit and tried to fit it into God's Word. Needles to say, I was coming up with mixture of Truth and error, fact and fantasy, which I continue to see brewing in so much of "Christianity" today. May God draw his people back to himself and out of this false system.. Instead of Our Father's house being a den of thieves, may it be a house of prayer both corporately, and personally. May we do what King David says in Psalm 131: "My heart is not proud, O LORD. My eyes are not haughty. I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. But I have stilled and quieted my soul like a weaned child with its mothers. Like a weaned child is my soul within me. O Israel! (O Church!) Put your hope in the LORD, both now and forever more." Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall He teach knowledge? And whom shall He make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast." We are weak, frail, and feeble, but God is mighty and well able to handle every situation, and do it in the most astonishing ways. To Him be all the glory, honor, and praise! Who else on earth can compare with Him. Let us worship at His footstool! Please keep us in your prayers, our sons and their families as well, that we will all come to glorify Him in everything we think, say, and do. Please, I beg you to pray for those in Rhode Island who are in this "ministry" that those with humble hearts would flee and draw near to God. You have no idea how I feel having opened our home to such a deception. May we continue to humble ourselves as our Lord Jesus Christ did when he emptied himself of all his glory with the Father and became that tiny seed in Mary's womb.. Then that seed fell into the ground and died.. We who believe are the fruit he produced.. May we do the same. Sincerely hoping and praying this will be helpful. If you wish to respond to this letter, please sent it by mail to this address: Mr. and Mrs. Frank Manchester, 208 Railroad Street, Johnson, VT 05656-9102 End...... (Message edited by Goldie on September 12, 2007) |
