| Author | Message | ||
     a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
In the last two weeks, I have been reading (rather obsessively) nearly all of the conversations on the discussion board from the past 2+ years. I have learned much from all of your open sharing of your perspectives. My question today is "What next?" In some of your stories, you have told of child abuse, along with spiritual, psychological, sexual and physical abuse. While any and all abuse of authority is reprehensible, not all is illegal. Given the recent articles in the Waco Tribune, and ongoing attention to HH, is there any recourse in the criminal code for the illegal types of abuse that is possibly continuing to occur? Are any of those with first-hand knowledge taking steps to protect the vulnerable children possibly being subjected to abuse? I have many, many, many years of stories/hurt//discord in my family, etc.... related to this church. However, as much as I disagree with the teachings there, adults are free to believe and associate with whom/what they choose. And as much as I am troubled by the abuse and coercion that goes on there, and has for many, many years, I am even more concerned about possible childhood abuse continuing. What about truly illegal actions that may be occuring there? Does social services need to be notified/involved (perhaps they already are)? What about indivuals who have died that are buried on the property? Is that legal? other statutory crimes? I'm just asking about these matters because I do not know what, if any, criminal action needs to be taken, or perhaps is already under way. I look forward to hearing from anyone who know about these next steps that need to be taken (or perhaps are already under way) I do understand that there may be a need for a "no comment" if a criminal investigation is currently under way. Have there been criminal charges filed in the past? If so, to what finding? ASOY | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
I joined several days ago but have been afraid to post because I do not want to cause harm to the few people I still know on the inside if the elders find out who I am. I also do not want to loose all contact/credibility to those I am still in touch with. Then you joined and asked my question, how do we help those still stuck on the inside come out. I was so glad to see your question. I can answer this question that you have. When any authority comes out, they put on a big old happy loving act for them. The shouting ceases, the beatings cease, the show is believable the members are coached on how to act while they are being investigated. This was at least true when it was still Emmaus Fellowship. That is when I was involved and when I know the authorities were called. I was young, but witnessed some of the abuse and from what I understand and hear from VERY reliable sources it continues. I've been told horror stories! However, I think even if the elders are able to decieve the authorities, anyone who knows for sure that it continues should call and call and call until someone realizes that there is abuse, that it is not a person with a grudge or a nosey person making false allegations. If contactd enough won't they investigate enough to see the marks, to see the proof? Granted it would be tricky because even the children are coached and regardless of how they are treated they don't want to be taken away from their parents and the only life they know out into the evil world, and it is made clear to them that is what will happen if they respond incorrectly. Hope this helps, Grace Alone. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Kowing to do good and doing it not is a sin...We really need to pray for God to empower someone with holy boldness... Prax tries to make me out a liar and some dumb old lady with a chip on my shoulder but my tract record shows I would only be here because I know the people of HH needs help and rescue from authorities...abuse is a terrible thing. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Kowing to do good and doing it not is a sin...We really need to pray for God to empower someone with holy boldness... Prax tries to make me out a liar and some dumb old lady with a chip on my shoulder but my tract record shows I would only be here because I know the people of HH needs help and rescue from authorities...abuse is a terrible thing. | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
ML, Do you know if the authorities are still involved? How did they not find anything or do something to help these kids when they were involved???? If the authorities are blinded are unable to step in and take action because of whatever reasons you can see where someone would choose not to call them again, especially if they have loved ones on the inside. If the elders find out who called not only are their loved ones in danger but the person who called will loose all contact with them. And some contact even if you are avoiding an "elephant in the room" is better than none. How can you help someone who is not even allowed to talk to you? Its an awful situation. Grace Alone | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 128.101.254.107 |
Thank you, Grace Alone. I am (have been for years) struggling with this whole situation and what you discuss; sounds like you have as well. It is as you say, not unlike children not in this group, they often fear the authorities and what they say to them will result in removing them from their homes. It is intuitive for a child to want to be with and protect their parents (my opinion, even one who abuses them. The abuse is not clearly defined for them as this is all they have know and do not have a broader context of what is/is not abuse. So, yes, it is more complicated than simply calling the authorites. Plus, the line is somewhat 'fuzzy' on discipline vs. abuse vs. neglect vs. parenting style, even in the law (at least in the state where I live). I have been on a home visit and saw mold literally growing on piles of food/dishes in the house and reported it to social services, but they could not go in (even to investigate my ocncerns) becasue just being filthy is not considered neglect or a social services issue(not a HH home, just to clarify). I see their point, but it does bring challenges in reporting. Are not ministers mandated reporters? In my state, if a mandated reporter (such as a teacher) does not report suspected abuse, they are subject to criminal prosecution. I thought ministers are mandated reporters, but I am not sure. Does anyone know Texas law on this point? ASOY | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 96 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
My opnion: First, I want to defend what I think is the majority of parents in Homestead, and say that I don't think physical abuse is occurring in most homes. There are some, in my opinion, very mean men in Homestead, and I would be scared to be their child. I have heard enough to not to defend every family, but I also know enough not to accuse them across the board. I would hate for the "child abuser" image to come to mind every time someone looked at a Homestead Heritage member. Prax would say that that was sick, and I would be agreeing with him. I have thought and thought about these things. I have read up on them due to the same concerns you have mentioned. This is what I have learned: Because of religious liberty, feigned persecution, and isolation of the children, child abuse in religious sects is close to impossible to prosecute even if with evidence of trauma. The history of investigation into religious sects and the successful prosecution is not good. It has the potential of backfiring, and the very ones you are trying to protect, the children, are further isolated and frightened to keep quiet. The group draws closer, screams persecution, sometimes takes desperate measures; including tighter control, becoming more isolated as a group, becoming more paranoid and irrational, and starts talking about their "apocalypse." The Waco Tribune article brought out this: “Some people might think it’s absurd to assume that just because such developments have occurred, the dire prediction about Homestead Heritage coming to a violent end will also come true. But stranger things have happened, he says.” Now the children have that kind of fear to live with. to be Continued | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 97 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
my opinion continued If something comes up, I am pretty sure that everyone in Homestead, even the children, will do their best in order to protect the group, even outright lie and sign false affidavits. The victim will not likely be the first concern. Based on my past experience with them, I would be shocked if it was. Child services have been guilty of abuses of their own. I would never want my children to suffer the psychological trauma of a strip search by a stranger, being lead by leading questions that might include sexual references, fear of separation from the family, being put with strangers, etc... A child who has never been abused would be suffering abuse to prove it. With the average family outside of a sect the likely hood of there being more than one witness to come forward, or witnesses that are taken seriously; like school teachers, school nurses, family pediatricians, summer camp councilors, or close neighbors and friends who are not in the group, etc. is more common. With a sect like Homestead Heritage the isolation of the children and the strict unquestioning obedience to parents and elders, (including older siblings and friends,) practically guarantees the abusers immunity to consequences. The potential to lie and cover up… I can’t even imagine a case where prosecution would be possible. It would well-nigh have to be caught on video. to be continued | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 98 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
my opinion continued I don’t believe the cause is totally hopeless. For instance: Who is teaching these children anything the parents don’t want them to know? Who is teaching them that they shouldn’t be beaten, kicked, starved, suffering solitary confinement for days, or even touched in certain places if the parents aren’t teach them? They are not going to hear it on TV or anywhere else are they? It will take someone inside the group, but when I was there these are not things we talked about. I am sure there are HH appointed monitors to this forum. I am asking them to please, as much as some might despise me, to get a message to all of the top three men: Dear Sirs, please, you have mandated so much, please include a mandate that all HH parents teach their children about child abuse and molestation at whatever level is appropriate to that child. Better yet, because an abusing or molesting parent will not teach that to his own child, make sure someone besides the parent gets to teach each child. You could write your own children’s book about appropriate and inappropriate touching of child to adult and adult to child. Tell them there are some things that they do not have to submit too. Child molesters seek out places where children are vulnerable and have to submit to them like daycares, and summer camps etc. Please make HH children less vulnerable. Maybe after the BD case you have taken precautionary measures. I sincerely pray that you have. When I was in Homestead I heard an incredible amount of teaching on submission to authority. Little if any was said about possible abuse using the authority of an elder, or a husband, or a parent or an older child. There was much on the abuse of the authority of “The State,” but not of spousal abuse or child abuse. These things need to be talked about. Leaders may not agree with most of us on what constitutes abuse, but surely even they believe that there is such a thing, and that at least the extremes of beatings and starvation, and any sexual abuse needs to be addressed. Not talking about it does not make it go away. You were talking about “What next?” Though HH is not accountable to us on any level, I think we should pursue them on this until they can assure us that this issue has been thoroughly addressed internally in such away as to remove the vulnerability of children and wives to at least the extremes of legitimate immoral abuse. I pray for that assurance… and by assurance I mean more than a little statement of "Be assured that we have taken care of this." formerhh@yahoo.com It would be a loving place to start. Sincerly FH | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Dear FH: I so appreciate your balanced words of wisdom; you really do have special insight and care for these people aimed at a greater good. I think your request is a good one and I join you in asking humbly that this precationary step from the leadership of HH is taken out of a common desire to protect the safety and well-being of the innocents. Let's agree where we can agree. Perhaps this is the start of joining together in this one area. It is also good to hear that in your experience these abuses are in the small minority; you have shown (at least to me) that you are not vengeful or on a witch hunt and give honest credit where credit is due. Thank you, asoy | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
This is a very strange thread, with some being very loose with their words. For the reader, HH shines holiness forth in their family relationships. Problems arise ? For sure. Do folks stumble ? Most assuredly. However, unlike so many in and out of Christendom, there is a real sense of accountability and there is a Biblical relationship ministry and fellowship that really helps folks who stumble to be overcomers. In fact, to put it plainly, this is one of the great blessings and lights and strengths of HH (even in comparison to many churches that do highly value holiness - which is God's great blessing). That is one reason why so many such folks (Christians with holiness in the forefront) have warm and deep relationships with HH, even if differing or unsure on various doctrinal matters. The goal of many in oppo-land is to scavenge over 30 years and the lives of hundreds of dedicated believers for things that can be used as a cause of offense. This is a very, very sad tact to take against a community whose life and dedication is a beacon of holiness before God to many. Those who make this scavenging a mission in their life really should examine whether they are seeking that God's will truly be done - or are they moved by a spirit of self-justification. Integrity first, including examining oneself. May you all have a wonderful weekend in the Lord Jesus Christ, and may we heed when God calls upon us to reflect deeply on our lives and actions. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Texas Child Abuse Laws Reporting Child Abuse Mandated Reporting Texas Family Code 261.101 Persons required to report A person (everyone) having cause to believe that a child's physical or mental health or welfare has been adversely affected by abuse or neglect by any person shall immediately make a report as provided by this subchapter. This requirement to report under this section applies without exception to an individual whose personal communications may otherwise be privileged, including an attorney, a member of the clergy, a medical practitioner, a social worker, a mental health professional, and an employee of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services. The identity of the reporter is confidential and may only be released by order of court or to law enforcement agency conducting a criminal investigation. Texas Family Code 261.103 Report made to appropriate agency A report shall be made to: any local or state law enforcement agency; *Child Protective Services if the alleged or suspected abuse involves a person responsible for the care, custody, or welfare of the child; the state agency that operates, licenses, certifies, or registers the facility in which the alleged abuse or neglect occurred; or the agency designated by the court to be responsible for the protection of children. Texas Family Code 261.104 Contents of report Person making report shall identify, if known: name and address of child; name and address of person responsible for the care, custody, or welfare of child; and any other pertinent information concerning the alleged or suspected abuse or neglect. Texas Family Code 261.106 Immunities Persons acting under good faith who reports or assists in the investigation of a report of alleged child abuse or neglect or who testifies or otherwise participates in a judicial proceeding arising from a report, petition, or investigation of alleged child abuse or neglect is immune from civil or criminal liability that might otherwise be incurred or imposed. Texas Family Code 261.107 False report A person commits an offense if the person knowingly makes a report under this chapter that the person knows is false or lacks factual foundation. The offense is a Class A misdemeanor (up to 1 year in jail and/or $4,000 fine). Texas Family Code 261.109 Failure to report A person commits an offense if the person has cause to believe that a child's physical or mental health or welfare has been or may be adversely affected by abuse or neglect and knowingly fails to report as provided in this chapter. The offense is a Class B misdemeanor (up to 180 days in jail and/or $2,000 fine). | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Child Outcry Statements Texas Code of Criminal Procedure 38.072 Hearsay statement of child abuse victim Statements of a child under the age of 13 who is a victim of sexual offenses or assaultive offenses made to the first person 18 years of age or older are an exception to hearsay rule and that person can testify directly as to what the child said to them. Privileged Communications Civil Texas Family Code 261.202 Privileged Communication In a proceeding regarding the abuse or neglect of a child, evidence may not be excluded on the ground of privileged communication except in the case of communications between an attorney and client. Criminal Texas Code of Criminal Procedure 38.10 Exceptions to spousal privilege The privilege of a person's spouse not to be called as a witness for the state does not apply in any proceeding in which the person is charged with a crime committed against the person's spouse, a minor child, or a member of the household of either spouse. Texas Rules of Criminal Evidence 503 and 505 The privileged communications afforded by attorney/client and clergyman/ client relationships applies to criminal prosecutions except as noted in the Texas Family Code 261.101 (initial reporting). Statute of Limitations None - murder/manslaughter 10 years past child's 18th birthday - aggravated sexual assault of a child sexual assault of a child indecency with a child by contact 10 years- indecency with a child by exposure --- | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Non legal Version All persons are required by law to report child abuse. The report can be made to law enforcement, Child Protective Services, or the agency regulating the facility where the abuse is occurring. Report should contain name/address of child and caregiver as well as information regarding the abuse. Information about the reporting person is confidential except if ordered by court or to aid law enforcement in their investigation. Persons reporting in good faith are immune from civil or criminal punishment. Persons making intentional false reports can be punished criminally. Persons failing to make a report can be punished criminally. Hearsay (statement made by another person) is usually not admissible in court. In cases where a child is a victim under 13, the first person the child told about the abuse 18 or over can testify to the hearsay statement. There is no privileged communication in civil child abuse cases except for statements to your attorney. The only privileged communication in a criminal child abuse case is those to your attorney and your clergyman. A spouse or other family member can be compelled to testify against anyone. The time that a person can be charged after committing sexual abuse of a child is up to 28 years except in cases of child death in which case there is no set time to bring charges after the commission of the offense. http://www.abilenepolice.com/child/caclaws.htm | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 146 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
and whoever knows these things and does not report them only make it possible for abuse or whatever to happen over and over. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I in no way want to discourage anyone from reporting current abuse that they know about. That was not my intention. If you know specifics it is your human and Christian duty to report it in order to prevent future abuse to the victim(s). (Message edited by foreverhis on July 14, 2007) | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
Thanks for the info FH!!! Now we need someone with current first hand knowledge to make the call! My first hand knowledge is not at all current, more than a decade old... and I have "hearsay" knowledge even though I know its reliable its still hearsay. I've heard from both children who are now adults and now free (some still mentally scarred from their childhood, others who by the Grace of God are doing well in their Christian Walk and their recuperation from the cult) that have confirmed as to how "punishment" is handled and also "hearsay" from parents now free who speak of how the elders direct parents to "punish" aka abuse their children, and of course we all know or have read how a word from certain elders is as if it was from Jesus himself. So the question is how do we get someone with current fresh firsthand knowledge to make the call. I wanted to share that the reason I don't post often, and am more of a lurker than a poster is simply because I don't want to get in arguments or anything like that. I know what happens, I know what goes on in the cult. I know God has very graciously restored my life and given me a wonderful walk with Him. I know that it is pointless to argue with someone still not free and I don't really want to be attacked or anything, so thats why I waited so long to post and will post very rarely. I know that the people suffer, I feel badly for the adults and the children who are being hurt, but I guess my heart really breaks for the kids, because the adults at least can get out, it might cost them their marriage, their finances and everything they know, but even though it is extremely difficult, they can get out........the kids can't unless someone helps them. Also, I am thankful for all the greast post I've read. FH, ML and ASOY (and others) have really been a blessing through some of their postings. Hope everyone has a great weekend, Grace Alone | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Please do not think what I said I am referring to you FH but I know people read here but are confused what to do. I have e mails asking for prayer along these lines. I love you folks and God will bring every evil deed to light. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I have been doing a lot of internet searches when I have time. This has been going on in many groups for some time. It has got now where the general public is becoming aware of it. I was reading a site today that had a writing from a lawyer who has specifically studied totalic authority sects, (I think he was avoiding the word cult,) and knows how they work. He mentioned that most contracts signed while they were members of a group like this will not hold up in court, especially if their council was a lawyer within the group and also represented the group. He has even had experience of ex-members getting reimbursed for things they paid for but were put in the name of the group. Judges are seeing through the undue influence and social coercion. Also mentioned was the use of "freedom of religion" to bring harm to another person rarely succeeds anymore. There are professional counselors that specifically help young adults who grew up in these groups regain hope and self respect and teach them the life skills needed to get and retain jobs and live independently, especially the skill of decision making. Even child services are gaining insight developing training materials on how to help children with the specific needs caused by cultures that harbor abuse. More and more people are talking, more studies are being done, and the word is getting out. People are watching and caring. We need to be there too. I have been so busy, but I really would like to get together a data base of "helps" so if some one does want to leave we know how to help them. I think there is enough of us that we could maybe develop a ministry that would include life support...counseling, teaching life skills, job hunting, a temporary place to stay, etc. There are other ex-member groups who have done this for the people who come out of the group they were in. I hate to know that a person can not leave because they do not have family outside to help them over the hurtles. Though we are not ready to do this smoothly, I believe God will provide. If you are in Homestead Heritage and are reading this and you feel stuck with no one to help or no where to go, please e-mail me. formerhh@yahoo.com | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
PRAX SAYS... For the reader, HH shines holiness forth in their family relationships. Problems arise ? For sure. Do folks stumble ? Most assuredly. HH shines? Prax how deceitful can you be...I wonder how many really knew what happened to a group leader’s wife a while back? Telling people that others are away visiting family is stretching the truth a bit... Doubt if the people inside the village ever caught on... Prax...you know so little to think you know so much. Why don´t you tell us how biblical it was to put diapers on grown kids or cover up abuse or lie to the law or shame people into believing they believe something they really do not believe. Why don´t you quit trying to turn the truth into a lie? If you do not know what REALLY goes on there you sin by covering up for evil thinking you are doing God a service. Prax you said…..there is a real sense of accountability and there is a Biblical relationship ministry and fellowship that really helps folks who stumble to be over comers… a relationship ministry? Just like they really helped the Crow family spreading lies about them? You call that a ministry? You call what Real Truth told me a ministry? You call screaming at people shaking fingers in people´s face a ministry; you call domineering other people and driving them a real ministry? You call teaching people that a group of men are Jesus in the flesh coming to minister to you? You call revealing a dead boy´s sex life at his funeral a ministry? You call not letting an old woman travel to a mission field a ministry? You call not letting kids go to collage a ministry? You Prax keep mentioning the numbers do you know Jim Jones had numbers…numbers mean nothing…numbers can be good or bad…thousands of people are brainwashed into dangerous cults every year. Prax do you have children? Have they ever ate at Mc Donald’s been to Wal-Mart? I saw young kids set for hours through services and at first wondered how that could be until I found out they think it is ok to spank babies and later found out about beatings and kids being locked up. No wonder they set for hours and never moved…You think that is normal? You take up for evil or you do not really know what goes on there. When it is proved and it will be you will feel strange left holding the bag. People are going to talk. With every passing day more people are opening up and talking. At one time HH could keep things hid it is now passed that point. When anyone says anything contrary to you, you are fast to call them some name and tell how much they need to repent. Maybe you should go weep for those that their homes will never be the same, weep for those that are driven in the name of the Lord, weep for those who are numb inside, weep for those that harbor horrible secrets and are afraid to step out because they have friends or family there. Weep for those that have to sit in services and be screamed at in front of everybody. Weep for those who only imagine God with a big rod to beat them at every false move. Weep for a man inside HH that told me he missed what he once did for the Lord…but how can he change without dividing his whole family? It is not love that keeps them there it is fear. I saw that fear with my own eyes…I heard it with my own ears. What kind of loving kind pastor would make an old lady call her “kids” in the middle of the night weeping saying hh would not let her travel even after she had already bought the ticket with their permission? Prax I am not dumb. I was taken in at first by what I thought was a real way of life. Not only the hand mower incident. I personally sold them power tools that someone gave me that I could not bring to Brazil and visited where PL made things by power tools. Why live a lie? The longer I stayed the more I realized it is just a big impossible dream. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 151 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
How crude and unethical of them to tell Daniel of their offerings to us when he is not a member. But they did not tell Daniel our expenses of them wanting us to stay there and what it cost us and what we spent on their members that came here. See the coin has 2 sides. No matter how much I disagree with their heresy I do not regret giving anyone a plate of food, helping anyone or any money I have ever given. Whatever Brazil gave to their cause we gave as unto the Lord. We don´t make big shows and tell rank sinners what or where our church money goes. We don´t make up dream posters using other people’s names and missions to promote our work. Take a walk over to Good New Café or Apostolic Friend Forum I have pictures on both forums. God´s people do not have to be dishonest and prophecy and try to fulfill their own prophecy. If God speaks anything it will come to pass. If HH is of God it will stand if not it will crumble down… | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Prax says.."The goal of many in oppo-land is to scavenge over 30 years and the lives of hundreds of dedicated believers for things that can be used as a cause of offense. " So you know for 30 years things have been going on? MY, Prax that is stunning that you would even tell us how many years you have known things were wrong. | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Wow.. Mrs. Alvear, are you incapable of even understanding English ? Or do you just twist and fabricate as a matter of course in everything in regard to HH ? Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Amazing. You folks might feel better moving to Sweden. Then you could surely report any parents for spanking to the authorities and get a sympathetic ear. Or you could report the pastor for speaking out against sin like homosexuality. And you could get all sorts of 'expert' psychobabble testimony. Since you could report the Christian pastors and parents to the state much easier there, you would be much happier in your agenda. =================================== Anyway I will speak bluntly for a change. The masks are off. The one oppo with some sense and heart is gone. Now we can see the true agenda of the oppos. Warfare against HH. These folks simply cannot stand that HH prospers and flourishes in holiness and community without them. They are very upset that grace and peace and love abounds within the fellowship and that HH is a beacon to so many. This gnaws at their innards. Instead of seeking God for the peace that passes all understanding, their 'solution' is to join in a conspiracy of evil, to try to reassure each other of how righteous it is to try to attack Christian community. Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on July 16, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
and your true agenda is it to protect the guilty? Do you like to abuse people? Lie to people? Scare people in the Name of the Lord? With each passing day I worry about your sincerity. Are you hidding something? | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
You know we aren't talking about spanking or speaking against Homosexuality. You keep playing your little game and it is making you look bad. We are talking about beating to the point of blood and vulnerability to sexual abuse and lack of prevention. For the reader, HH shines holiness forth in their family relationships. Problems arise ? For sure. Do folks stumble ? Most assuredly. However, unlike so many in and out of Christendom, there is a real sense of accountability and there is a Biblical relationship ministry and fellowship that really helps folks who stumble to be overcomers. Where is your concern for the child while these stumbling folk learn to become overcomers? Sticking your head in the sand until the damage is done leaves a child traumatized for life. Not talking about the uncomfortable issues like child abuse and child sexual abuse, (which is most often done by a family member,) and not coming up with a plan to prevent it or at least minimize the vulnerability... means those who could have done something to try to prevent it and didn't share in the guilt. You should be on our side with encouraging prevention with educating the vulnerable which will make them less vulnerable. I was talking about possible internal measures that I had not heard or seen in my 7 years there. Dressing a little girl in a dress in stead of shorts or a bathing suit is not going to stop a pedophile. Chanting, "Thank you Jesussss... Thank you Jesussss... Thank you Jesussss... Thank you Jesussss... Thank you Jesussss... Thank you Jesussss..." for hours isn't going to do it either. Someone needs to be teaching these children that there are times to say no to authority and to run and tell... Well that goes against the "always submit and God will take care of it" teaching, doesn't it? It is also admitting that authority can be abused, and that critical thinking before obedience is a legitimate action. It is encouraging questioning authority. We can't have that; it is against the core of HH doctrine. Could this questioning authority be the small stone that cracks the glass house and brings it all down? “No, let God take care of it... It will never happen in HH, HH is too Holy”. Well buddy it already has, and not by a new member either. Tell that little girl that the holiness in HH was enough covering. My children stayed in that man's home when I had my baby. Like you I thought there could be no threat. So did a lot of other children from other families. Has anyone even addressed that? Has anyone talked to those children? to be continued | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Wake up people. The appearance of holiness is putting you to sleep. Like the three monkeys you cover your eyes, your ears, and your mouths, and think hard..."See no evil, hear no evil, don't even speak of it." There are white washed cups among you and they are giving you a false sense of security. They send people away to hide the truth. When someone is missing you have learned to not even ask why. Like good little sheep you just let things go on around you. Wait until it hits your family, then there will be no ignoring it. Then you can leave or be sent away until the smoke clears. Until then sweep it all under the rugs in your glass house. Please wake up! Please think things through! What does love require? Authority is not always a covering, it is sometimes the perpetrator!!! Use your God given minds and your intelligence; ask yourself, “what is right?” Have I been taught to blindly submit? Have I been taught to cast aside doubts when it comes to doubting those in authority or the doctrines? When I am uncomfortable about things do just dismiss it from my mind and figure it is covered somewhere else? Don’t be a sheeple of men. And people wonder how they drank the kool-aid??? Ask yourself... What are you drinking?} I love you, and I know this sounds harsh, but if I can convince you to educate you children and yourselves this way, someday you might thank me and be able to see that love. ForeverHis | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
Prax, I wanted to clarify what I meant too. I also was not talking about spanking, I was talking about the stuff like whipping with switches for 20, 30 or more minutes daily every day, elders advising parents to remove their toddlers diaper and whip them until they bleed to get rid of the evil spirit, the notion that it is okay to physically discipline YOUNG babies, confinement of youth to their room for days, weeks or even months with insufficient nourishment (example water and bread meals only) and a bathroom trip or two a day etc. This is what I meant by abuse. Kids in these situations need help and if the leadership or the parents can not assure that the child lives in safetey the authorities need to, because I can personally attest that this type of physical abuse really is HARD to overcome as an adult, through God's grace alone have I been able to get to the point I'm at, a peace and a knowledge that I am safe in Christ, but some of the people raised in the fellowship have a hard time seperating the God that allowed them to be beaten and hurt from the real God so they don't have God to turn to because of what they went through they can't turn to Him to help them get over it. So it was not spanking that I spoke of even though spanking is not the discipline choice I use with my kids, I have a difficult time with any type of physical punishment. I don't spank but thats not what I meant by abuse because even though I have my personal hangups with it because of real abuse in my childhood if I think about it I can seperate spanking from abuse and realize that some parents can correctly use it as a way of discipline. But I wanted everyone to know that I was not talking about spanking. I was talking about types of abuse like I listed above. Hope this helps, Grace Alone | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 159 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
now Prax...you see some of my reason for weeping...and I have no idea who grace alone is...and I am sure he/she is not one of the ones that spoke to me about this and more... | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 161 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
So, Prax, you notion of a quite, sweet little community goes down the drain. You seem to have no concept of what is really going on at HH. In 3rd world countries governments like to keep the people poor, ignorant and controlled...ever wonder how this relates to some churches. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 162 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
holding leaders accountable for their behavior is what needs to be required at HH... | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Even in a quiet, sweet little community there are perverts and abuses; this is just a fact of life and the leadership can't be necessarily blamed for the evil doings in others. However, let's ALL hope that the leaders follow their hearts, show real courage, and do the right thing at this time to prevent further damage. This is somethign that they CAN be held responsible for. It will take only one of them to stand up for truth. ASOY | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 166 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I agree my sister but when leadership overlooks perverts and abuses what happens? If leadership encourages people to whip babies what do you think it might do to some kind of pervert? I hope following their hearts leads in the right direction. In some cases following the heart is not the right thing to do. Jer 17:9-10 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve." NIV We really need to pray for truth to come out and for God to move and for hearts to be changed and pride turned into repentance. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 77 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hello everybody, I don't have the time to post much anymore, but this evening I was catching up on the latest posts and felt compelled set a few things straight. First and foremost, I must deal with MissionaryLady. She is a woman of great talent, a woman who has seen God work in the lives of many, and a woman who believes passionately in her version of Christianity. For all these things I commend her and honor her. Yet, she has made a grave mistake in attacking HH like she has, and in her attack of HH she has revealed a bitter and vindictive side of her self that is very sad indeed. I sincerely fear that this arrogant self righteous attitude toward HH is tainting all of her other good deeds, but that judgment is up to Jesus, so I will leave it to Him. One fact remains though. And that is, ML's version of many circumstances and situations involving HH are so radically different than HH's version than any prudent person would deem it best to either throw both versions out, or rely on their own past experiences with both ML and HH to make a judgment call on who to lay their trust with. As for me, I fall squarely on the side of HH. I have never been lied to by HH, I have never been abused by HH, I have never been coerced by HH, I have never been anything but loved by HH. Therefore I will continue in my staunch support of them. In case some of you have not read the beginning threads here on FactNet, then you may not know my story, but it can be summed up in a few short sentences. I grew up at HH. I became a Christian at HH. I was Pastored at HH, and last but not least, I was Loved at HH. That "horrible man" (According to Robin), the HH founding Elder that ML and her ilk love to make fun of, called me the day I left HH, and for the evil man he supposedly is, I sure didn't hear any of it. He told me that he heard I was leaving, and he would miss me, and if I ever needed anything, he would help me to the best of his ability. What an evil horrible man!!!! Mrs. Alvear and her merry band of accusers are a sick demented bunch to call fine men like that the things they do. (To be honest, 'sick' and 'twisted' are too fine of words to be wasted in describing the hearts of people like FH and ML. Unfortunately, I know not what else to use.) ************************************************** | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Now, to the fairly new accusations I read here about HH advocating the abuse of children. These accusations are accusations straight from the pit of Hell and straight from Lucifer's own mouth. Like I said, I grew up at HH and not only that, I watched countless other kids grow up at HH. Never once did I see signs of abuse of any sort. Two of my siblings and, just recently, a niece, were born at HH. They are all the sweetest most wonderful kids I have yet to know, and to think that folks like ML and FH and Maja are making vile and despicable accusations against their parents makes me so angry I can't see straight. I see how my sister loves and nurtures her child. I see how my folks love and nurture my siblings. I see how my extended family at HH treat their children, and unless I am the blindest stupidest idiot in Texas, there is not the slightest sign of abuse anywhere that I can see. In fact, as far as I am concerned, to accuse HH of any kind of physical abuse is akin to claiming that little green aliens daily conduct probes on unfortunate livestock in West Texas. It is so ludicrous that words cannot even begin to describe it's idiocy. Which is exactly why this 'abuse' accusation bothers me so much. Any sane individual who knows HH members would discount such accusations immediately, but the casual reader here on FN, who knows nothing first hand about HH, may actually believe the demonic accusations against my family and friends. Which leads me to ask; What kind of sick person would do the things that Maja, ML, TH, FH OW etc have done? And, even more importantly, should the word of any such tortured and demented soul ever be trusted? DOwen. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.95.28 |
I'm glad you didn't forget me bro, I was worried there for a minute that you had forgotten to list how sick, twisted, and evil I have to be. (Yup, comic relief is needed from time to time.) I guess if it wasn't for the liars who have nothing to do but make up stories about the squeaky clean golden calf, the epitomy of Christianity in the civilized world, Homestead Heritage, all would be well in utopia. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 167 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Daniel, time will tell... | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hello Majajh, I knew I could count on you to provide the board with an arrogant and, yes, comedic post. As my roller skating cool dude teenager friend next door would say, "Whatever duuude." Just for the record, I have never come even close to comparing HH to a "Golden calf" or "Utopia" or the grandest example of Christianity known to man. I have simply spoken of my first hand experiences with HH, and striven to present the reader with a different side to the story than you and ML and FH have the guts to present. My words and convictions are based upon over 17 years of real life experiences with HH, and as such are every bit, if not more, valid than those of the oppo's. Like it, hate it, skew it, do whatever with it that you wish, it doesn't change the fact that I happen to know more about what I speak of than you can find it within you to acknowledge. The friendly village idiot, awaiting your next barrage of pathetic vapidness. DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 169 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
17 years and never baptized..never signed away your life to them...strange isn´t it... Some people that write on here were elders and leaders and others were also raised there...their real life story sounds different from yours... Time will tell...I am too busy to write here... | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
Dowen, The new accusations aren't from the pit of hell. They are true. I believe you when you say that your relatives are the sweetest kids....there are many sweet people at HH. My sharing these things is not wrong; hurting kids IS wrong and in my opinion, its not right to accuse people who are speaking of difficult true situations as speaking things from Lucifers own mouth. Its a tactic to stop people from talking, to say what they are saying is from Lucifer and the depths of hell is meant to quiet and discredit them. It would have worked on me a few years ago because it has taken a while for me to get to the point where I need to be as a Christian to be able to speak things and have confidence that its okay to speak with the right motive and spirit, even about difficult things. I'm not trying to say anything in a wrong spirit or to cause problems, I'm saying it with this motive: if there are kids in a physically abusive situation help for them is going to have to come from a change at HH from the elders and the parents abusing the children or from someone on the outside, because the kids can't help themselfs. I did not know to do anything at the time I left because I still had the "elders can do no wrong" mentality and to be honest I was sure I was destined for hell with no hope of salvation, much less a walk with God. That was my mindset at the time. And now, I don't find reasons to be optimistic that parenting strategies have changed as everything I hear is that HH is becoming more and more controlled. I admit my current info is not firsthand experience. In all sincerity, I would be so happy if you are right and that kids are no longer hurt there. I know I'm right that they were hurt there in the past, and I'm glad that it did not happen to you. FH asked if HH could assure us that it doesn't? Since you still are in "good graces" for lack of better words, could you find out.....and not to take anything from your positive experiences but sometimes certain peoples kids have better experiences. I feel your experience was better especially since you aren't aware of these things. Please could you do something to help the situation, find out if they have or are willing to prevent these things like FH suggested earlier? I really am not trying to be abnoxious, I'm not even sure if your post was referring to some of the stuff in my post. I'm worried about someone, thats why I'm reading this site, trying to figure out what could be done. I would rather know that things are going great with the kids at HH and right now personally since things are going great with me, I consider myself blessed and honestly would rather not be delving back into the past. Thanks for anything you could do. Blessings, Grace Alone | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 175 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.245.122.130 |
I agree with GA there are many sweet people in HH but there were many sweet people BD and Jim Jones cult. Just yesterday Brother Alvear and I were talking about Sister Mary Stein and how she made so many meals for us and others. I dearly love her of course she may think different because I write here on FN. I love her and many others so much that I am compelled to write here. The love of Christ is reaching out to help those who have no power to help themselves... | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.65 |
"I dearly love her of course she may think different because I write here on FN." You think? "BD and Jim Jones cult" Bobby Darin has always had a BIG cult following. PS You got any of them there diapers for teens? Might need one this weekend, going to Racing Rapids Water Park... Let me know! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.65 |
"I am too busy to write here" Except for those quick, 175 posts you've written thus far. Hope you get your whole Busy List done... Let's see... 1) Hurriedly type out post #176 on Factnet with what precious little time I have. 2) Polish Shofar. 3) Sharpen fangs. 4) Missionarize someone. 5) Shave back. 6) Gather incriminating info on Bobby Darin and Pampers. | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
ML, I googled you because I wanted to see if I knew you from back in the day. I did not recognize you so we must have been around HH at different times, but I had to tell you how beautiful I think your work in Brazil is. I watched the Norwood church service that you spoke at because they have it online. I do not know how anyone on these boards could justify saying such ugly things about you. It is just obvious that you are doing a great work for God, caring for lepers, spreading the good news of salvation to many, caring for poor kids, ministering, introducing the lost to Christ, and not only that but sacrificing to do so, even though you don't seem to think of it as a sacrifice. I was very impressed with all I read and heard (which is whatever came up on the first page of google after typing your name in) But your family is awesome, your work is amazing and I think you are a powerful lady that God is using to reach hurting people. Those that insult you should look at what you do each and every day. The churches in Brazil, the areas you travel to, what it must mean to walk amongst lepers in a leper colony and give them a new hope in Jesus, I just don't understand why you are so criticized on here when your life story that happens to be publicly accesible shows clearly that you are a strong caring Christian woman obviously in the will of God. I just had to let you know what I thought. Blessings, Grace Alone | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Just know that it takes many years, perhaps a lifetime, to recover from a trauma. But God is good, and healing does come from him. I commend you grace alone, for your gentle spirit and concern, and willingness to share your first-hand knowledge. I think it important not to sling careless accusations, and your insight is invaluable. An authority structure (such as HH) does lay a foundation for potential abuse of children and I am so happy that these occurances are few and far between. However, even ONE child who is hurt in the future because someone has not stepped in is truly a sin. Peace to you for continued healing, ASOY | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.170.2 |
Hi ASOY, Thanks for the kind words. God is Good!!!!  I am so thankful to Him for what He's done in my life, that being said I can definitely agree with you when you said it takes a long time to recover. I'm going to keep on praying for not only the people who we are concerned for but also for someone with first hand knowledge to have courage to step in and help. I am not as optimistic that the occurances are few and far between. I believe that God is going to answer our prayers. There are so many differing views on here but the neat thing is God is big enough to bless and help all of us and all involved with HH past or present. Have a great weekend! Grace Alone | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 176 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.245.122.130 |
Am at such a sweet minister's retreat here in Brazil..Last night I looked over some of the ministers and wept to see those that were once witchdoctors changed by the saving power of Jesus Christ. It is really and truely nothing I personally have done but it is HIS great power that makes such radical changes in the human heart. People that had rode the buses for hours and would sleep on a peice of black plastic for a bed yet they were so thrilled to be in the presence of one another and in the presence of an awesome God. Those that know me well know it grieves my spirit to write here on FN...yet because I see danger in the past and hear things are not well at HH so that means danger in the future I will take out time to plead for those reading to come out of such horrible bondage. There is a life outside of HH...as you know it will be rocky for those that take part in HH but after a time you are able to talk about it with anger or bitterness. I know it takes a real man or woman to walk away from such false doctrine when curses are being pronounced but light is greater than darkness. Yes, anyone is free to do a search to find out who I am...Go to Goodnewscafe or Apostolicfriends forum in the mist of being forums that discuss mostly doctrines and this and that you may follow my footprints of many years on both forums... I must go for now have a class to teach at the seminar. I wish God's blessings on all. Sister Janice Alvear |
