| Author | Message | ||
     dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Here are two facts that anyone reading about HH should know. #1. No one forced anybody to be a member of HH. #2. Anyone can leave HH whenever they want. These two facts are the "Inconvenient truths" that the oppos love to ignore, and I want to remind everyone of. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 72.254.52.225 |
No. 1: A sucker is born every day. In fact, it's pretty easy to con sweet Christians. No. 2: Yeah, you can leave when you want if you want to get a guilt trip. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 72.254.52.225 |
You mean, "inconvenient" truths? Homestead Heritage: 1. Leader holds heavy sway over the people, to include their personal lives. 2. Have teaching that is extra-Biblical. 3. Live in a commune/community, relatively isolated from "the world". 4. Believe they have the corner on the truth. 5. Live north of Waco. David Koresh: All the above. There are Christians at Homestead Heritage, but the teaching and teachers are not teaching Christianity, just a parallel to it. All the above. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
sadly this is true... and much more that the public does not know... | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
My response to #1. The process to becoming a member is fraudulent. You are wined and dined and enticed but once on the inside the attitude changes. That is one of the main reasons we warn others about the group. What you see is not what you ultimately get. My response to #2. The physical doors are not locked During the membership period people are encouraged to wean their outside connections and focus on the group. They attempt to tie you so close that leaving the group would be traumatic. This is where we have seen families torn apart. Sure you can leave anytime you want but the result can be devastating and that’s the way they design it. | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
#2. Anyone can leave HH whenever they want. Far from true. 1.And this is the big #1 reason: Their covenant is a spiritual gun that is held to your head as a threat of eternal death. (DOwen never made the covenant, he left before that was required of him.) Who needs physical compulsion when you have threats of eternal damnation? Which is worse the physical death or eternal death? Then there are threats that if you leave: of your children dying in car accidents, Satan having his way with you etc... 2. Even if you overcome their false teaching and threats, which is harder than I can explain, you could still face shunning even from family members. 3.If you have been in deep enough you become financially invested and could loose your business and your home. 4. The “waking up” process is painful. The realization that you gave your all to please men who deceived you, having you literally lay down your life to build their dream while you should have been about God's will, that you yourself deceived others, that you led other people in, that you will have to leave them there, that you can not get back all those years, that you are responsible before God for chasing a fantasy lifestyle instead of reaching the lost for Christ... that you had a part in supporting the spiritual and psychological abuse of others and possibly your children and own loved ones. And while doing that, you did it all in the Name of God. It can be it is too hard to face the truth. 5. Some people have no one on the outside to turn to. (DOwen had his grandparents and aunts and uncles on the outside.) Some were born in there and know only the lies they have been taught about -Leaving the truth for the hopeless world of other so called Christians on the outside who are really just spiritual whores of the church of Babylon. They have heard all their lives that they are destined for hell if they leave. They have never known anything else. Life on the outside for some can be so scary that they feel they no choice but to stay. DOwen talks like you are joining and leaving the Boy Scouts of America. Well maybe for him it was. In my opinion he received special treatment because he had not made the vows and because of who his family and extended family are. There are other young men who couldn't even go to their siblings’ weddings. These two facts are the "Inconvenient truths" that the oppos love to ignore, and I want to remind everyone of. They are not "inconvenient truths" and they have not been ignored, though it has been awhile since we talked about it. Thanks for bringing it up again. FH | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Daniel, A cow chip is a cow chip. You can spray perfume on it. You can form it into an unfamiliar shape. You can try to convince others it is something else. You can cover it and hope people don’t recognize what it is. But after all the effort............it’s still a cow chip. | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
A husband becomes abusive to his wife. She is tormented daily. What a horrible situation she is in. Does she walk away from her home and family? Every time he beats her he reminds her........ 1. No one FORCED you to marry me. 2. You can walk out that door any time you please. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Whoops. Sorry about the mis-spelling. I need to pay closer attention next time.  Robin, Sorry to find myself disagreeing with you once again, but I must. It is very easy to leave HH. You make a phone call, and you're done. Do you hurt, sure. Do you miss friendships, sure. Do you second guess yourself, likely. I never said that leaving HH was an easy thing for me to do emotionally. Far from it. If a couple gets a divorce, and it doesn't hurt both of them deeply, then their marriage was shallow indeed. Just the fact that you moan on and on about how hard it is to leave HH speaks volumes about how deep and meaningful your relationships there really were. What boggles my mind is how you can now turn and viciously attack those same people you once loved. The devil is an evil creature, and he has twisted your mind into a pretzel. Convincing you that what you are doing it "just" and "right". I just wish you could see how he is using you. DOwen. | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 87 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
What boggles my mind is how you can now turn and viciously attack those same people you once loved. I am NOT attacking the PEOPLE, I AM attacking doctrines, cult dynamics, and the dangers they allow. I didn't "once love them," I still love them. You are right about the deep relationships I had with some of them. I have no reason to deny that. If your sister was in a group you thought was harmful, and due to beliefs within the group, had the potential to be dangerous... would you be attacking her if you confronted what the group beleives and practices? If she went and joined a remnant of Branch Davidians that beleives everything Koresh taught and that Koresh is coming back from the grave, would you idely stand by? If talking to her was not enough, would you stop there? If you had left the group yourself would you feel no responsiblities to warn others of what you saw? Would you be attacking your sister? We each have our own view. The devil is an evil creature, and he has twisted your mind into a pretzel. Convincing you that what you are doing it "just" and "right". I just wish you could see how he is using you. In my opinion: I would say that the devil has twisted the scripture into a deadly pretzle and Homestead has adopted it for it's doctrine. I wish the leaders could see how the devil is just using them. FH | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
I am NOT attacking the PEOPLE, I AM attacking doctrines, cult dynamics, and the dangers they allow. This is exactly what I am talking about when I speak of the devil twisting your mind. We are what we believe. And by attacking what someone believes, you are attacking them personally. Don't fool yourself. Jesus spoke of this when He spoke about removing the log from your eye before you attempt to remove the speck in your neighbor's. God is big enough to deal with HH as He sees fit. Leave it to Him. All you are doing when you accuse HH of teaching demonic doctrines is doing the devil's work, and he loves it when Christians attack one another. You think the devil is using HH, I think the devil is using you. I am not going to change your mind, you are not going to change mine. Time for a truce? DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I think the devil has destroyed HH by men with super hungry egos that feel their need to be bowed to... | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hmmmmm. I know many HH men quite well, and have NEVER ONCE seen "super hungry egos" in any of them. Quite the contrary. Almost every time I come in contact with HH members I walk away convicted of my own ego and arrogance. The bottom line is simple. If HH leaders were so power hungry, they would never have joined HH in the first place. There are many other, much more productive, outlets for egocentric folks to exercise their passion. I'm sorry Mrs. Alvear, but you couldn't be more wrong in your judgment of HH. Perhaps the reason you didn't fit in at HH was your own ego. Just a thought. You never miss an opportunity to boast about your million dollar ministry and your 'converted soul meter'. Perhaps you are projecting your own shortcomings on HH. Just something to think about. DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I am not boasting...I personally own nothing not even the home I live in. When I mention what God has done it is for God´s glory. I own nothing, pay into no retirement funds and trust God for every need. I am deeply thankful for all that God has done in Brazil but nothing belons to me it belongs to the Brazilian church. No for your information I am not on the board at my request. You know nothing about ministry and the way you talk to an old missionary shows your cultish upbringing. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
So Daniel you know nothing of grown kids being put in diapers? You know nothing of kids being sent to their room for days, weeks, months and even years? | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Mrs. Alvear, I can only speak about that which I know or observe first hand. And never once did I see or know of someone being sent to their room for weeks months or years. Sure I spent a few summer afternoons in my room awaiting my dad to return home from work. And frankly, I wish I had spent a few more than I did....but my mom did what she could. I once did a three or four day stay in my room because I refused to apologize to a babysitter for being rude to her, but that was my own doing and it hurt my parents far more than it hurt me. As to diapers, well, in the seventeen years I have been in contact with HH I have NEVER once seen anyone other than a baby wear diapers. Perhaps years and years ago something like this happened, but judging from your lackluster track record I am sure you have taken something out of context or do not know the whole story. Your "cultish upbringing" comment is absurd beyond belief. If I had chosen to ignore your rants here on FN, you would have labeled me a cowering sheepel, afraid to speak for myself and most certainly a product of a cult. You would have gone on and on about how abused poor little Daniel is. "He won't even speak for himself" "Those damned devil worshiping HH leaders have broken him forever and I must speak out for him"!!! Like you said, I am an idiot. Sincerely, The poor poor little HH stooge, DOwen. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Oh, and what is a "Grown kid"? My stupid little cultic brain can't figure that one out. The idiot, DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
The person that told me is a minister in good standing with his organization...and kin folks in HH...now you go figure. He would have no reason to lie. Maybe you might want to ask him. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Daniel why would people that were in HH in different years all tell the same story? I mean people that do not even know each other? Strange people that live there told me about certain happenings that I did not even believe at first...until... Daniel truth would suit you better. If HH was what you and Prax WANT it to be you both would be there! Who wouldn´t want to live in heaven on earth? | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Truth seems to bother you Daniel...or maybe it is you really do not know...Only God and you know that.. Ever heard of child abuse? Kids getting beat till blood runs down their bodies? Ever heard of the other things I have mentioned other than ...no...well...perhaps years ago...You sound just like HH...why can’t you face truth? Yeah...I know... the family...Perhaps there are ways you could help your family and one of those ways is being honest with yourself and honest with God. IF you know anything about HH then you know FH is not lying. Does HH consider you a christian? | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
The person that told me is a minister in good standing with his organization...and kin folks in HH...now you go figure. The person you speak of is a man I respect, and his experiences are what they are. Just don't think that his experiences are the norm at HH, because they are not. If HH was what you and Prax WANT it to be you both would be there! Please quit putting words in my mouth! I don't want HH to be anything other than what they are. I respect them, and while I have my disagreements, I honor them as best I can and try to treat them how I would like to treated. Truth seems to bother you Daniel...or maybe it is you really do not know... Like you said, I am an idiotic fool. In fact, I am shocked when remember my name every morning. Ever heard of child abuse? Depends on your version of child abuse. Nowadays it is "abuse" to spank a child or even tell him/her "no". Kids getting beat till blood runs down their bodies? This kind of nonsense really makes me angry ML! What kind of monsters do you think HH members are!!?? What kind of monster do you think I am? (Oh yeah, a stupid one) I would NEVER stand by and let a child be beaten in the manner you speak of! Do you really think that all the adults at HH are that cold blooded? Shame on you! Perhaps there are ways you could help your family and one of those ways is being honest with yourself and honest with God. One of the main reasons I post here is because of your dishonesty and treachery in accusing my family of being demonic monsters. Perhaps you should start being honest with God about hatred and bitterness you are harboring toward His children at HH. IF you know anything about HH then you know FH is not lying. How can you say "IF" when you know quite well that I grew up there and fellowship and work with HH members daily? You expose your pathetic agenda when you do silly stuff like that. Does HH consider you a christian? Do you consider HH members to be Christians? ******* The village idiot, DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 114 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
yes, there are christians at HH bt they do not consider you to be a christian. So you know about the diapers after all...So his experiences are not the norm...my experiences must not be the norm either...FH and a host of others their experiences are not the norm either. Is it the norm to be to be beat by words or whatever? No, Daniel HH is not a normal christian lighthouse. You may have grown up right there but you were never a baptized member...you do not know a lot of inside stuff...you were just a protected kid... Do you know anything about crimes, lying, child abuse or anything along those lines? Would you want them to tell about your sex life at your funeral? Do you think it is the norm among chistians? Do you think it quite normal for a bunch of bully men ( my opinion) to scare Sister Roxie and not let her travel with us AFTER THEY had said it was the will of the Lord and suddenly God doesn´t know what he is talking about and changes His mind...OH, Daniel how can you be so blind? You know God is not yes right this minute and the next minute no...what a wishy washy god they serve...one that cannot even make up his mind...They were not even smart enough to trick us...see we knew and other ministers warned us about brainwashing...so we just observed to find out the real story. Don´t lower my Jesus to HH level...He does not do things like that. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I harbor no hate toward HH. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
I am an idiot. You said so yourself. So why do you care about what I have to say? Signed, X (DOwen) | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
The village idiot would like to make an observation here. see we knew and other ministers warned us about brainwashing...so we just observed to find out the real story. So you were playing HH all along eh? Were you also playing HH when you asked for donations for your work in Brazil? Was that part of your game as well? Shoot for a bit of monetary gain, then treat them like devils? What kind of Christian are you? I'll return to my corner and my dunce hat now...I just wanted to make an observation. Go ahead and tell me how stupid I am, The dunce, DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Lots of people sign with an x in Brazil...sadly they do not know how to write their name. | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.55.13.131 |
The person you speak of is a man I respect, and his experiences are what they are. Just don't think that his experiences are the norm at HH, because they are not. His experiences "are what they are"??? Apparently this man, or his family have been hurt, to say that makes it sound like you just blow it off like it was nothing. This kind of thing is not to be taken lightly. Even if they are not the norm, if they happen to you, you have reason to warn about them. If Only 1 in 200 people visiting a certain country get malaria from a bug bite, the one who is bit has every reason to warn others that it is possible to get malaria while visiting said country. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I never ONE time ASKED for donations at HH. I have said in past when you, Dowen brought this up. They gave me donations. I spent a month of my time there at their request the donation they gave could have been raise anywhere else in a month however if you were told I ASKED you were lied to. I did not ask they brought money to the cabin a few times. Most churches do give offerings although no one or church is obligated to. As I look back now I see they were trying to buy us, impress us for in the end they wanted our work. If they had been sincere things would have turned out differently. But I am not the type to crumble under pressure...I was told they would try to pressure us and break us and make us think our work belonged to them but I did not believe it when people told me I stayed around long enough to find out for myself. You were in no meetings with us so you have no idea the tactics they tried to use others that write here KNOW much about their pressure... You just walked away you said. I believe that...You represented nothing to them but others that write here know the INSIDE of the story. Others that refuse to write here out of fear also know the inside of the story...and Daniel that story will be told...not here because it is too long but in a book and you can buy the book and disagree point by point with the authors. It will be hard to disagree with facts. You write your book about the norm... Do you really think I enjoy writing here? Can you find my name involved in any other discussions like this one on the internet anywhere? I have went to thousands and thousands of churches and some were quite cultish but not to the point that I would write on a site like this. IF I WRITE HERE as busy as I am it is because I am afraid for the people inside HH. I saw them destroy, belittle, make fun, and degrade others. I saw them drive Sister Roxie to tears telling her she was out of her place, I listened to her weep on the phone as she told us she could not travel with us after they told her it was God´s will. The ticket was bought BECAUSE they said the Jesus in the flesh guys that it was His will for her to go and then she tells them we do not understand all they want of us and they become mad and tell her she cannot travel with us... My friend GOD does not operate like this. Selfish men do! They showed themselves taking their anger out on an old woman that they have brainwashed into believing they are Jesus in the flesh... No, Daniel I didn´t fall for that junk. All the respect and overlooking things I could not understand and trying to focus on whatever good I could find all became clear and we saw hh is a cult that controls and destroys. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
My husband said it is a strange way for a church that did not recieve any pubic offerin in any service for us...they just came and handed us money at the cabin that you an outsider and not even a member know about things that did not even happen in public... Of course my husband and children told me all along that HH was a cult...They like to read and study cults that was never my cup of tea...so I believed at first everything they said and really wanted to believe it was real...God pulled the wool from my eyes... My family hated HH and so did my church here but I loved the arts and crafts and many things UNTIL I saw with my own eyes happening after happening... I do not hate the people at HH. Neither do I hate JW or Mormons...in fact I bake cakes when the M boys come around for I know they must miss American cooking and our kinds of cakes. WHEN a grown person from HH went with us somewhere the person said, "don´t ever mention this" and then it happened again and again... Now I am an old missionary and I would not be going anywhere that would be wrong...I ask you why such a fear of leaders?????????????? Why would someone hand me a magazine and tell me not to tell anyone...a grown person and no for your interest it was not Roxie. Why such a fear? Would an Irvin Baxter magazine be like a playboy or some sex magazine? May Jesus help us I might or might not believe like IB but I am grown. Why would someone tell me they are sorry for drinking Coke or eating a peice of shrimp? Why would "MEN" feel they have the right to hinder someone that wants to go to college? I know lots of men and women of God that hold degrees. Do you think plowing with horses makes someone more spiritual than my son that holds a doctors degree (Judge). His degree has not hindered him at all. I never had that oportunity but I am glad he did. Daniel you writing here only hurts your own cause and just like the diaper story your posts reveal you trying to hide things...In the end we see you know the diaper story...and probably...perhaps more stories. Don´t think they will not get out for they will and even recent happening at HH have come my way. Sometimes I think some that write me write me from inside that little village...I wonder...I weep...but it will all come out. People cannot be treated like sick little animals forever. Sunday Services may have visitors showing up...who knows just what might happen...but happen it will for God will not let his little ones live forever in that bondage and misconception of God´s word. All the preparing for what "MIGHT" happen will not be enough for when it happens for no one can stay the hand of God. HH either repents or they will go down in pride. I hoped they would acknowledge some things in the interview but sadly they lied about several things...and it only made it look bad on them. It would have been much better to say we have made mistakes and we are sorry but we have learned... | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 122 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Why such fear Daniel? Are you afraid of our pastor? | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.14.148 |
I have just started in the last two weeks to read this discussion board. I have a long, long history with these people. I had almost given up on any positve relationships with my family after years and years and years of discord aorund this group and my criticisms of the authority. I want to thank you all for your honesty and time that you have spent discussing these important topics, and feel that through this board I can finally get some answers. My main interest at this point is knowing (from those of you who have left HH after significant time as a member, and continue to live a life of faith)) what is it that started the process in you of coming to the decision to leave? Was it something from within, or something that someone said to you, or what else? Is there anyhting that I can say to my lkoved ones to be a catalyst to this process? asoy | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
ASOY Most people that leave HH have had a number of negative things happen and finally they realize the truth to what they have become a part of. They continue to belong but slowly raise their awareness. They start losing trust and once they can step back and start looking at the whole picture they are distressed. Usually the elders will spot an attitude change and they close in like a bunch of buzzards to mitigate the damage. In most cases the wavering members need to arrive at this point themselves; if you try to talk them into leaving they will defend this church regardless of their true feelings. This situation is very common in most all cults. HH has had over 30 years to perfect the manipulation process. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
ForeverHIs: I am NOT attacking the PEOPLE, I AM attacking doctrines, cult dynamics, and the dangers they allow. Dowen: This is exactly what I am talking about when I speak of the devil twisting your mind. We are what we believe. And by attacking what someone believes, you are attacking them personally. Don't fool yourself. Jesus spoke of this when He spoke about removing the log from your eye before you attempt to remove the speck in your neighbor's. First point: the scripture reference you are using has nothing to do with you what you are trying to say. The log and the speck deal with correcting somebody when you yourself are doing much the same thing or worse. It has nothing to do with ‘attacking’ somebody for what they believe. Second point: so when Paul corrected the Corinthian church for allowing adultery to be tolerated within its midst, he was attacking the people personally, because he tried to correct their errant doctrine? Are you saying it was wrong for him to do this? Are you saying the devil had twisted his mind? Before your dad was in Homestead Heritage and had a system of beliefs, was it wrong for Homestead Heritage to ‘attack’ his beliefs, because in doing so they were ‘attacking’ him? Was it wrong for your grandfather to ‘attack’ you beliefs after you left Homestead Heritage? Is it wrong for Praxaluh to ‘attack’ ForeverHis’ doctrine? Do we not have a right and an obligation to look at ours and another’s beliefs? I welcome ‘attacks’ on my beliefs. They help me to have an answer as to why I believe what I believe. They make me search the scriptures and ask God what is right and what is wrong. I don’t feel like they are attacking me at all. I will give you an example. When I lived in Texas, before becoming a part of Homestead Heritage, I knew a couple who belonged to a Holiness Church. In the course of conservation with them, they told me the difference between their church and another holiness church was the length of sleeves that the women wore. I asked them why their women wore the longer sleeve length. His answer was because they kept the standards. I asked where the standards came from. He said they were the standards. He had no idea where the rule for wearing a particular length of sleeve came from, his wife just did it. I wasn’t attacking him, or even his doctrine, I was trying to find out why. He couldn’t tell me. Nobody had questioned on that before, and he really didn’t want to find out. It was the standard and that was all that mattered. I have had my then soon to be son-in-law ‘attack’ me on some of my beliefs. He wasn’t ‘attacking’ me, just my doctrine. Through the course of our conservations, scripture searching and prayer, some of my and his beliefs have been altered. Remember we all ‘see through a glass darkly’. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.14.148 |
Is a disagreement and/or conversation an attack? How is it we are to learn and grown and expand our views, not only of our faith, but of each other and the world in which we live? How are we to grow a deeper relationship with each other and our God if we do not question? It is in the seeking and questioning that we soldify our own faith; it is in this seeking that we find the answers that are the foundations for a solid faith. It is not in the suppression of doubt and questions, rather in the embracing and exploring that we become stronger. Dont' be afraid of this journey; be wary of those who stifle it. asoy (Message edited by A sister of yours on July 09, 2007) | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
It is not in the suppression of doubt and questions, rather in the embracing and exploring that we become stronger. Dont' be afraid of this journey; be wary of those who stifle it. asoy Amen. Welcome to the forum. FH | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Sister, I want to address your question of how to help those you love in HH. I agree with H75, that the person has to be ready, but I can share with you some of the things that helped me be ready. First, there was a sister who had started to visit HH. She was on fire for God and dedicated to him. The thing that got to me most though, was her joy. Like an unsaved soul who meets a Christian full of joy, I wanted what she had. I remembered having it in the past and I wanted it back. (I now call it my "first love" like what is spoken of in Revelations.) I was in the group that was recruiting this family. (We never called it that, we didn't give it a name, we just did it.) They visited us in Waco and we went to the Dallas area to visit them in their home. I missed being around them during the week. When we were together this couple would talk about God with great excitement in their voices. (In the fellowship we talked about how great the fellowship was. I hadn't noticed it before that.) Well, I pulled her aside and asked her what she read for encouragement. I greatly needed some at the time. She told me about some things she had been reading and offered them to me to take back to Waco with me. I wanted it bad enough that I hid them and took them back. They were full of the Gospel, which has its own power. (Smile.) continued | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I had also become reacquainted with a friend from my past named Susan. She too had this joy. Here I was, after being taught for over six years about how blessed we were inside HH to have so much, and how deprived people were on the outside, and seeing these two families with the sweetest children living lives totally dedicated to God and full of Joy on the outside. It shook me. Not long after this, I had a near crisis that I spoke about in another thread. This near crisis left me knowing that God was trying to tell me something. I spent the night praying, until finally I prayed, "God what is it you want me to see. Please show me even if it is something I don't want to see. Make me willing." He answered my prayer, reveling to me that the fellowship had become my God. At this point I blamed myself for it. (There is more about this elsewhere in these threads.) Then one evening I was with this visiting sister and she was driving me to DOwen’s mother's house for a baby shower. I told her that God had used the Gospel shared in the things she let me barrow, to show me that I had forsaken the Gospel and was relying on my own sacrifices. I remember the shock in her voice. She said, "How do you think that happened? Did they teach you that here?" At that point I hadn't thought about it. You just don't blame the fellowship for anything. It never even occurred to me to ask that question myself. I answered her telling her, "Gee, I don't know, I have to think about it." That started me on my quest to reread the literature I had at home. It became obvious then. But it was also confusing. That is when I began sitting with the Bible on one side and the literature on the other, and actually looking up the reference given in the literature. Wow. Some times they would use three words from one verse and the rest of the words from other verses and come up with an idea that wasn't even in there. It blew my mind. After weeks of this, I just laid down the literature and read my Bible. It was so refreshing that I couldn't put it down. I would prop it up on the counter and read it while I kneaded my bread and while I did the dishes and cooked too. I would fall asleep with it open, and my eyes would be blood shot in the mornings, lol. I was getting really excited. continued | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I prayed along time before going to my husband. I asked him to look at the literature then we looked together at the Bible. Then I very submissively asked him to explain the discrepancies. I was very sincere and very persistent. He would try to blow it off and I would beg him to explain why the Bible said so and so, but we believed so and so. He went to our group leaders and they tried to beat around the bush and blow us off too. My husband said it was my new found joy that made all the difference. It made him want to listen to my questions and what was going on in my heart. Here was his wife, who had been crying frequently, now full of faith, excited in the Lord, and wanting all of God she could get. We went through the process of weeks of meetings with our group leaders. (I explained that elsewhere too.) What else I wanted to share with you is how I now realize that before all this, I was actually afraid of doubts. That becomes ingrained into you in HH. (…the twisting of "a double minded man" and "take every thought captive" scriptures and some others.) I knew down deep, all the doubts I had swept under the rug, were doubts that I might lead me away from Homestead and the people I loved. The tiniest thought of leaving was VERY scary. We were told that leaving the cover of their authority left us open to the vices of Satan. We were told that breaking the vow and leaving them was leaving God. Seeing my Christian friends and their Godly joyous lives made the consequences of looking at those doubts less scary. It showed me that I could live for God without HH if I had too. Though at that time I wasn’t even considering leaving. It just took away some of the fear of leaving or being thrown out. So when the near crisis came, I was willing to see what God had been trying to show me all along. He showed me all the red flags I had ignored and convicted me of becoming a man pleaser, of having let men sit on His thrown in my life. He also showed me serious specific instances where I had sinned even though my conscience had screamed at me, and how I had submitted to what I was told instead of doing what I knew by my conscience what was right. So when I started digging into His Word and comparing it to the things I was taught, I was ready to see the truth. Our friends made all the difference. Even after the decision to leave was made....I would need them even more. The sucking force of doubts and guilt, all the phrases that had been drilled into my head, the meeting where the brother and his family came back after a car accident and said they knew it all happened because they left... the lies of what happened to other people who left... The "leaving God..." What if we are wrong... There were nightmares that would startle me awake... I knew we would loose all our friends inside. My children would loose the friends they had been growing up with. It was all they knew. My husband by this point was free and even more sure than me. And Susan's family was helping me too. It wasn't easy, even tough we knew we were doing the right thing and that it was definitely God's will. continued | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I said all of this to say, be there, be real, and show them the love of God and the joy of your salvation. Now I have to ask you to please pray with me and I will pray with you. I will be praying that those inside that you love will have their hearts and their minds open to the truth. There is a sister and her family in Homestead; the one who lent me the books. She probably doesn't even know her part in God setting me free. I had a part in her getting her in, while she was getting me out... God forgive me... Sister LDC please forgive me... I am so sorry. Will you all please pray for her and her family. Pray that they will remember that NOTHING but the blood of Jesus saves them. I have to go... Thank you, | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.14.148 |
Thank you for telling me more of your story; the part that touched me the most was your description of when you bagan to read the Bible on its' own directly again: That is when I began sitting with the Bible on one side and the literature on the other, and actually looking up the reference given in the literature. Wow. Some times they would use three words from one verse and the rest of the words from other verses and come up with an idea that wasn't even in there. It blew my mind. After weeks of this, I just laid down the literature and read my Bible. It was so refreshing that I couldn't put it down. I would prop it up on the counter and read it while I kneaded my bread and while I did the dishes and cooked too. I would fall asleep with it open, and my eyes would be blood shot in the mornings, lol. I was getting really excited. This description actually made me cry for those I love. Anyway, your story has given me some insight into this process of leaving. My relationships(s) are really quite precarious so for now I am just going to keep doing what I have been doing; some don't even talk to me (for several years), others have begun to have guarded interactions with me, I think really with an agenda, rather than a real relationship, but at least it is an interaction of sorts. I look forward to learning more from you and sharing more with you, Thanks again, asoy | ||
| allforchrist New member Username: allforchrist Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.29 |
Thank you for the detailed description, FH. It moved me to tears as well. If my friends leave, they will be leaving all their children have ever known. I would like to know more about how one goes about recovering from such an ordeal. I was never a member~ my husband was not impressed ~ yet I was completely influenced by some who are members now. As you, FH, mentioned, I made them (& HH) my god/idol, and in some ways I was actually out from under the authority of my husband by allowing myself to be influenced so heavily. I began to doubt my salvation and questioned my faith at every turn. Thankfully, what I knew in my heart about Jesus eventually won and I have been on the road to freedom for about seven years now. PTL!! I would like to know if there is any type of support group, biblical counseling forum, or recovery groups for those who have been through these types of things. FactNet is fine for ....well, finding the facts, but this is not the place for support, love and encouragement, IMO. ~ too much discord here. | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Dear all for Christ, Since we had been close with families who left before us, we turned to them for support. There was Susan and her family, who had visited and there were five or so other families who had been involved. My husband's mother would have been great support....but it was to embarrassing to go to someone who never experienced it themselves. It is too crazy to even believe otherwise, and most of my other friends and our family were horrified to find out the truth when we could finally tell them even a little of it. The love and support were there, but we couldn't "talk it out" with them. Like I said before there is this unspoken don't talk rule. My husband and I saw things that happened to the families around us, but we didn't talk about it. It was that way with each of us. Some of our experiences and what we witnessed happing to ourselves and to others over lapped, but others did not. The accumulation was shocking. What we thought were isolated incidences were more common than we wanted to admit. When you "wake up" some things are unbelievable even to yourself... I thought, "Man, I actually sat there and let THAT happen, and THAT, and THAT... I can't believe I didn't question THAT... How could I have been so complacent?!!! Only by talking to other people who had done the same thing, who are just as guilty, can you admit to what you really had tolerated happening to you, your family, and your loved ones. Even now, years later, I still deal with things I participated in or sat by and did nothing about. I still remember old issues that I am dealing with the first time since I left, (1998,) and I have to repent more. I wish I could say I had somewhere to direct people for counseling. I have read some forums where "Wellspring Retreat & Resource Center" has been well talked about over and over again. (I don't know of anyone from Homestead who has used their services.) I did an internet search for: cult recovery ...and found some sites that I were helpful. We have a yahoo group, but it is very quiet and not much is discussed on the forum. There are not any counselors in this little forum. It is just a few of us who have this one little window to occasional keep contact through. I read the yahoo "freedom of mind" forum occasionally. Sometimes it was helpful, other times not. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomofmind There are quite a few book s I found helpful. My favorite is the Bible, (smile.) Even then it can be precarious at first because of the way HH redefined some words, but it gets better. For me the book "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnalogar was very helpful. There is a link to a condensed, (50 of the 275 or so pages,) NET version on this site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/ The direct link is: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/tbook.html There are other books listed by HH former members on our yahoo group site. Lord willing, I will try to get that list copy/pasted here tomorrow. My e-mail is formerhh@yahoo.com God bless you FH | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
FH you are awesome! God is using you to help others. I wish I had the time and health to do this. My job is so demanding and the work here so big. I want you to know you have a lot of people here in Brazil praying for you. | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Thank you Dear Sister for the kind words. There are none good but God, and I am not He. (smile.) I do hope this is a help for someone. We do serve an awesome God don't we?! His love, grace and ability to work through us is extravagant. If someone is helped, may He be glorified. Thank you for the prayers. That means a lot. Sincerely FH | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Here is a link to a thread titled: Things That Have Helped Us Recover http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=146655#POST146655 | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Thank you | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 148 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
The Lord and His many wonderful people prayed for us not to fall into HH trap. We were hurt because it was such a shock to us the things we found out first hand about them. Thank the Lord for His presence and His guiding hand. | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.216.26 |
While I think that DOWEN's two points are true for adults who join the church, I don't think they're necessarily true for children born into the church. The children don't have a choice, for better or worse. (I'm not saying that it's bad, just making an observation.) Sure, when they reach adulthood they can choose to leave -- as DOWEN did. I suspect that free-minded males like DOWEN are more inclined to leave the safety of the nest whereas meek, shy, submissive females would tend to stay. Again, those are just observations. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hey Trilogy, Good to see you. I see your point, and agree in part. I don't have any stats in front of me, but I can think of quite a few young ladies who left HH. Some of them had been born there as well. My parents chose to become a part of HH when I was about 8 years old, so while I do have a few memories of "life before HH", they are pretty hazy. Not that it matters, but just for the record... Oh, and you are right, "Free-minded" is a good way to describe my outlook on life. I wonder how that happened seeing that I was raised in an "evil oppressive cult".....????  God Bless, DOwen. (Message edited by dowen on July 23, 2007) | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.216.26 |
DOwen, good point. ;-) | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 177 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.130.115.183 |
Only the very brave will leave HH... Of course Daniel does not chose to join HH...so there is a lot he does not tell on this board...if it were so good he would want his family there to be protected from this evil world... | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
For some young ladies, leaving HH may be their only hope of ever having a family of their own. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 178 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.132.175.172 |
So true for they are forbidden to marry other christians...and so sad. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
they are forbidden to marry other christians Yup, if you are a member of HH, and desire to get married, the object of your affections must be a heathen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 179 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.2.91.132 |
You answers reveal HH thoughts and teachings...so sad..you do more to hurt their cause than help it..however you reveal what you learned well. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 180 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.2.91.132 |
You answers reveal HH thoughts and teachings...so sad..you do more to hurt their cause than help it..however you reveal what you learned well. | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Mrs. Alvear, What is truly sad is your insistence upon treating HH in the abominable way that you do, yet at the same time confessing that they are indeed Christians. It is obvious that I will never change your mind about HH. No matter what personal experiences I relate to you, no matter what first hand knowledge I share with you and no matter what your real heart of heart's tells you, you will continue on in your reckless warpath and vendetta against HH. Since that is the case, I encourage you to seek that warpath out. Exploit it for every bit of "advantage" you can get out of it. Use your "Righteous" anger to hurt people you acknowledge to be Christians. Go ahead, do your bloodthirsty "duty". Do it as best you can, and hurt as many as possible in the process. It is, after all, your duty. Like you have said before, it is your "Calling" to wave pitchforks and torches in HH's face. Blaze forward "Missionary Lady". Keep preaching that Gospel of Hate that Jesus taught. Keep preaching that Gospel of self righteousness that Jesus taught. Keep teaching that Gospel of damning those you don't like. I am sure Jesus is proud of you. But, as you have reminded me of on numerous occasions, I am an idiot, so what do I know... As for me, for a time anyway, I am done with those of your ilk. Good luck, and I truly wish you the best. At least for now, I am sick of reading the flood of filth and evil accusations here on FACTNet. Sincerely, Your very own Village Idiot, DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 181 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.183.60.131 |
I feel so sorry for Daniel...So sad... | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 182 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.183.60.131 |
I feel so sorry for Daniel...So sad... | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 183 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.183.60.131 |
I feel so sorry for Daniel...So sad... | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 184 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.183.60.131 |
I feel so sorry for Daniel...So sad... | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 185 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.183.60.131 |
I feel so sorry for Daniel...So sad... | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.216.26 |
Yup, if you are a member of HH, and desire to get married, the object of your affections must be a heathen. Hilarious! If I were drinking a Coke I would have spewed it out all over my keyboard! | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.49.94.209 |
You guys are so childish! ML said: So true for they are forbidden to marry other Christians...and so sad. She did not say they are forbidden to marry Christians did she? No, she said OTHER, meaning, outside the group. While I do not know if that statement has always been true in HH, I do know you took what she said out of context and twisted it. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
It seems that the purpose of this forum may have become lost, or maybe I am mistaken on what I thought was the purpose. Name calling and unsubstantiated accusations (from both sides) does not seem to inform, enlighten, or expand our view of HH in any substantial or concrete manner. I read this forum to learn the truth from all of your first-hand knowledge what is really going on there (both positive and negative). Please share more of a productive dialogue to this end. Thanks, asoy | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 75.49.94.209 |
Yes, if folks could quit trying to disprove each other, and just tell their own stories, or those they know first hand, things would be different. If we could discuss doctrines by giving our own opinions of what it means or whether it's correct, without arguing about it, then the people who come here looking for answers could draw their own conclusions without having to sort through the mess of name calling and everyone saying why everyone else is wrong. If we were mature we could agree to disagree on things. This forum was started so that people on the outside could come and find information about the group and hear sides they might not hear when going to a fair or event. It is open, meaning anyone can post a positive or negative. Let the reader decide for him/herself instead of trying to decide it for them! | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
A productive dialogue will be a stretch. When people post their past experiences with HH Prax and Daniel immediately respond with accusations of lying. Those two folks have defended the group in question irrespective of the facts presented. If you want to comprehend the attitude, mind-set, manner, position, thoughts and approach of HH in general just read the posts of Daniel. His father is an elder and his father coaches and encourages Daniels responses. They work together daily so they are in constant contact. I don’t think a proper dialogue would ever be possible under the present circumstances. | ||
| not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 75.116.17.1 |
well i think that this post started out as antagonistic and now it has turned into something useful. nice to see some good people here. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.95.162 |
If you were talking about whether to sprinkle or dunk, a friendly dialogue might work. You are asking something along the lines of the Phillistines and the Hebrews having a civil discussion about whether Moloch or YHWH were God. It's that sharp of a division. Personally, I've been happy to stay out of the fray for a while, and look forward to that continuing, if possible. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 186 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.146.249.198 |
No girl or boy in HH is allowed to marry outside of HH. Is that plain enough? Some may try to belittle what I say but to say this is not true they cannot... | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Hmmm... I need to correct this yet again, since it is a gross misrepresentation of my posts and new folks might actually believe it. h75 "When people post their past experiences with HH Prax and Daniel immediately respond with accusations of lying." First, very rarely have I accused anybody on this forum of lying. In fact I have been careful to acknowledge that they are speaking what they see as true, albeit filtered through their lens. And I discuss the nature of this lens, the desire for self-justification, and the: "I'm OK, your OK, everybodys OK, except HH is not OK" type of peer-pressure manipulation from some oppos. There have been a couple of 'close to exceptions' over a year or two. One recent one is a terrible untruth, even a blood libel, told by one woman on this forum, that afaik about which she has still not gotten right with God. (If she has in the last weeks, glory be to God.) However this woman has explained how she deceives herself, so in one definition she is not lying, which is one reason why I hesitate to use the word even there. The word 'lying' usually implies conscious deception, not just subconscious manipulation of truth to falsehood. Now I hesitate to speak for Daniel, let me just say that I have shared with him that it is a good idea similarly to be slow to make an accusation of lying, and I believe that he has understood my position and taken it to heart some in his discussions. And of course he discusses various matters in some depth, often with more insight that I can or others can give. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 75.31.174.204 |
Blood libels are sensationalized allegations that a person or group engages in human sacrifice, often accompanied by the claim that the blood of victims is used in various rituals and/or acts of cannibalism. The alleged victims are often children. Really, Prax? What kind of lens are YOU filtering through? | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, It looks like I am dealing with a person educated by Wikipedia. First, let's be clear. There have been false accusations of accountability for deaths here, accompanied with gross misinformation, and general accusations of 'murder' from another woman. There has been cult Jim Jones accusastions continually from one source, occasionally from others, where in fact many died in what might be called a 'death covenant' ritual. That is why when the sickness here accused in a similar way, that was in fact a blood libel. (That particular word-phrase accusation ceased.) Any such deception, lying, trickery is part of a blood libel campaign. In fact the term has a much wider usage in language than your Wikipedia article. http://www.lewrockwell.com/floyd/floyd23.html What Rove is giving voice to here is nothing less than the new blood libel of our age: that those who oppose the Bush Administration's unconstitutional actions are opening the door to a new 9/11. They call it a blood libel because it is linked to the deaths in any events like 911. Alan Dershowitz and Noam Choamsky verbally spar. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={39FED75E-B81E-40BC-8340-18E1687A62FF} Chomsky's New Blood Libel Dershowitz called it a blood libel because Chomsky was unfairly accusing of deaths and heinous actions. http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp482.htm Who Killed Muhammad Al-Dura? Blood Libel -- Model 2000 Again the issue is a false accusation, libel, a blood libel of causing deaths. In fact this person gives a pretty solid real definiton. http://wulfgar.typepad.com/a_chicken_is_not_pillage/2007/07/blood-libel.html It's a little trick we call 'blood libel', accusing an enemy (real or imagined) of behavior so heinous that only the truly demented would not be sickened by these acts. And that is what we have here from many oppos. And that is why those with a conscience unseared, a heart for God, even if you have distance from HH, guard your hearts and minds and place yourself at great distance from such practices and company. Shalom, Steven Avery | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.110.47 |
A fake, like the officer's cap, is deliberately made to deceive buyers and looks similar to an authentic piece...The best defense against being fooled by fakes and reproductions is acquiring as much knowledge as you can about your particular area of interest. An expression I once heard from a long-time dealer, "Buy with your heart, but always buy smart," Malcom Katt, talking about fake antiques. Sounds like wisdom for the religious world too. | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, For once I actually agree strongly with Majajh. It is very, very important to be able to discern the real, the jewel, the gem from the counterfeit, the knock-off. Amen. Only in such purity will there be the: 'Touch of the Master's Hand' http://www.atthewell.com/touch/index.php Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
The real Jewel...and it is not HH...but our Lord Jesus Christ... We do not have to have a priest or some guys that think the are Jesus in the flesh...we can have the REAL Jesus. |
