| Author | Message | ||
     ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 63.229.10.254 |
http://www.ncfliving.org/bk_129_narcissism1.php Since Factnet may be shutting down, I would like to post this link to an article that I found on the internet about Narcissistic Religious Leaders. I believe that this is an important article, and that it really holds the answers many of us search for when we look back upon our life at NTCC and wonder why we had to suffer so much. The truth is that rw davis has a narcissistic personality, and that many ministers in NTCC have taken on that personality also. It has caused much suffering and damage to many good Christian men and women and their families. For years we have been taught or led to believe that God’s personality is the same as davis’ personality—that is to say- hard, demanding, lacking compassion, judgmental, and ready to judge anyone who questions anything done or said. That is NOT the God that the New Testament describes, but it is what we have believed for years. The real God is a God of love, compassion and longsuffering, as exemplified by Jesus Christ. I challenge everyone to read this article, especially those who are die-hard loyalists for rw davis. I know you won't change, but maybe this article will help someone.} | ||
| mklo Junior Member Username: mklo Post Number: 47 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
*bump* | ||
| mark_g Member Username: mark_g Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 72.201.122.179 |
ctyankee..... I probably should read the article before I respond, But I'll take my chances. I have a book about NPD that was written by a very well known Doctor. I have to say, And I know that I'll probably have people disagree with me, But RWD does not seem to fit the stereotypical prototype of someone who has NPD. Or, then again, Maybe I don't know him as well as many of the people out here do, or did, Which is very likely. | ||
| mklo Junior Member Username: mklo Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
Please elaborate on your perceived discrepancies. | ||
| pelfdaddy Intermediate Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 280 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.61.228 |
I think there is room for discrepancy in any case. A psychologist would rarely insist that all symptoms be matched and all terms met in order to diagnose a given disorder. The same doctor would not hesitate to treat a person for a condition of which they display the most important and most characteristic traits. | ||
| mark_g Member Username: mark_g Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 72.201.122.179 |
Hello everyone.... The name of the book that I am using as reference is called "Malignant Self Love", By Sam Vaknin. I bought this book a few years ago, Because quite honestly, I went out with a woman who was very Narcissistic. I only went out with her for a very short time.(I wonder why). As I read the book many of the things, as well as the phrases that I used to describe her were found in this book. It was almost scary. The gentleman in this book list a series of traits that define NPD. To be honest with you, It's been a while since I have read this book, so I'm going to have to skim through it, and hit the highlights. It's not something that can be answered thoroughly on Factnet, simply because it is such a vast and complex subject. In my opinion, I think that RWD very well may fit some, or even many of the traits that are Characteristics of Narcissism. But, I'm not an expert on the subject, so anything I have to say should be understood as "My opinion". More on this subject will follow. | ||
| still_small_voice Advanced Member Username: still_small_voice Post Number: 678 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.138.130.3 |
Narcissistic Personality Disorder Diagnostic criteria: At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis (as with many DSM diagnoses, they must form a pervasive pattern; for example, a person who shows these criteria only in one or two relationships or situations would not properly be diagnosed with NPD): has a grandiose sense of self-importance is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people requires excessive admiration strong sense of entitlement takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends lacks empathy is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her arrogant affect. 5 out of 9? You be the judge. | ||
| mklo Member Username: mklo Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
I see 9/9 clearly, but I'm not a shrink and therefore my opinion is nothing more than that. I agree that it is a complex subject. I think that most people have at least some traits of the narcissist, and I also think that we generally don't like it when we see it in ourselves or in others. I have a teenage daughter who sometimes displays an attitude of entitlement, and it's annoying. We all go through it, and I'm sure she'll outgrow it, (a JOB will probably cure it,) but her overall personality and character is not defined by the traits that we think of as narcissistic. Leaders of cult groups (and, oddly enough, controlling and abusive spouses,) typically exhibit a majority of the above listed traits. It's as if they have either surrendered to the selfish impulse or for some other reason it has taken over as the core of their character. They must control others to validate themselves. It is important to them - indeed, everything - that others around them confirm their runaway ego. Their importance and significance must be reflected in those they associate with; they have a hard time maintaining any relationships that do not serve this purpose. Lo, I digress. My point, I guess, is that this is one of those things that either hits you between the eyes or you don't see it at all. A sister who works in the mental health/rehab industry posted some information about this, and when I started reading it seemed to explain everything that is wrong with NTCC based on the influence of the man who created it and who remains the animating (driving, pushing, one might say) spirit of the group. Everything that he promotes that is wrong or distorted can readily, in my opinion, be traced to NPD. NTCC is all about the personal success of those who control it, or, in some cases, those who are useful to it. "Your church is a reflection of yourself." - R.W. Davis | ||
| hanako New member Username: hanako Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 209.102.135.104 |
I believe that Davis is a sociopath or a psychopath. Look up both of these terms. Do some research and you will see that his narcissism is just the tip of the iceburg. Cult leaders are often sociopaths. http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/socio.htm | ||
| victorjohanson Intermediate Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 169 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.67.71.113 |
"I believe that Davis is a sociopath or a psychopath. Look up both of these terms. Do some research and you will see that his narcissism is just the tip of the iceburg. Cult leaders are often sociopaths." To some degree he is a product of his environment. We often heard tales of his impoverished depression-era "cotton mill hill" childhood, his tubercular mother, and abusive father. Very Faulknerian. It is interesting that he esteems his father, but the stories he told nearly always depicted him as tyrannical and mean spirited. Perhaps a reservoir of deep shame is at the root of his subsequent personality deformation. Despite the havoc he has wreaked on the lives of others, I feel sorry for him. The article posted by ctyankee at the beginning of this thread has good insights into the dynamics involved. Apparently there is hope for such people, but not much. | ||
| bro_derrick Intermediate Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.193.33.140 |
I belief Narcissism condemned in Scriptural is not to 'think more highly of ourselves than we ought...' "Your church is a reflection of yourself." Davis This is a typical sentiment of self-absorbed 'ministers': 1) It's not 'your' church, but Jesus'. 2) A reflection of yourself..., which is exactly what the church ought not to be, but rather the likeness of Jesus. Narcissus in the myth was caught up so much with his own reflection in the water, where he became a flower permanently planted there... So a Narcissistic Leader wants to see more of himself in the faces, eyes, and lives of others. He wants believers to be looking unto himself and seeing him with Jesus if not more than Jesus. He is a lover of himself more than a lover of God and others... He thinks so highly of himself and his 'walk' with God and his own spittin image of God, that he wants to be followed as Christ, rather than be followed as he is of Christ. The question is: what kind of flower will Davis be made into, when he is planted beside the organized pond that bears his own reflection? | ||
| still_in_pain New member Username: still_in_pain Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 67.170.115.170 |
So, what are you saying? Are you saying that although Davis as basically achieved all he can and done all he can do (for God) and will recieve his reward in Heaven. He's much like a runner in the Special Olyimpics, even though he wins his race he's still retarded and not worth cheering on and addmirering and concidered an outcast?? You know, in a twised way he is like that. He runs his race and wins, he may look goofy doing so and he may trip, stumble, run the wrong way. But he always has a great time doing it and doesn't really care whos watching his blunders and mistakes. And he Wins!! People Love him for that. Maybe we shouldn't look so hard at the mistakes and take a better look at the success. | ||
| ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 65.102.161.161 |
According to Rev. Davis he doesn't make mistakes- period! Infact, one of his traits (which is a narcissistic trait) is that he can NEVER bring himself to ADMIT he ever made a mistake. Isn't that the sin of pride? | ||
| pelfdaddy Intermediate Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 290 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.121.158 |
Derrick-- Venus fly trap | ||
| ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 65.102.161.161 |
still_in_pain-- For the sake of this group can you please clarify your position on Davis? In one thread you talked bad about Dave Armour and said he was very "rwdavish"; in this one you sound like your defending him. Are you for or against? | ||
| still_in_pain New member Username: still_in_pain Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 67.170.115.170 |
Humm, Please allow me to think about that. I really don't want to give an "off the cuff" answer. Just know that NTCC took up almost 20 yrs. of my life. So there's alot to muddle through. | ||
| mklo Member Username: mklo Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
That's normal. It takes time to unpack the baggage. I'm not one to dispense advice, bu I will say that it is in your best interest to understand what you have been through. Some people feel an urge to immediately join another group that seems to demonstrate the same kind of intensity as NTCC. Avoid the urge to jump from the frying pan into the fire. Time alone, in many cases, will provide a lot of objectivity. If you're fresh out, I know from experience that your head is swirling. You just took the red pill, and Kansas is going bye-bye. It will settle down, in time, and you will see a lot more clearly. Chances are that many things you chose not to see over the past 20 years, in order to remain loyal, are flooding back into your mind with every passing day. Some people continue to struggle against the chains of fear and guilt for leaving - I sincerely hope you are not one of them. I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that it took me a couple of years or so to regain a sense of balance in my life after I left NTCC. The leader of the group and his accomplices deliberately make the decision so emotionally and psychologically traumatic that it is difficult to even consider let alone follow through with. For some, I fear, it is impossible. (Message edited by mklo on July 08, 2007) | ||
| pelfdaddy Intermediate Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 291 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.240.82 |
Still in pain, Feel free to contact me at pelfdaddy@yahoo.com if you like. If you do not wish to then at least try to look at outlets like this as more than just a place to 'vent'. You will find friendship and understanding out here and these are good things to have. | ||
| still_in_pain New member Username: still_in_pain Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 67.170.115.170 |
ctyankee, I truly and emphatically wish I could give you a definite answer to your question, but I can't. I guess you could say I'm neither or I'm both at the moment. I recently went to another church service of a friend of mine who was pioneering his own work (not affiliated with NTCC). And this was his maiden service. As he preached God delt with me and I felt Gods presents in this service. I thought, "now theres a man who just wants to do something for the Lord" and than the thought "RW Davis started this very way and he also just wanted to do something for God" In my very umbel opinion, isn't that what we are all trying to do?? Something for God. I recently saw a bunch of unkept bikers rumble by me and they had leather back patches on that said "CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS" on them. Is that Ministry?? Should we all reject them because they don't fit a certin mold? Or is their mold just as valuable as yours, or NTCC's mold. I am very sorry for rambling on but you all spark some good thoughts and you also spark bad ones. I for one refuse to take the human side out of the equation. When you deal with people so long they start to become business tools not souls in need. You become very cold, callus, and calculated towards everyone you meet, and this includes your spouse. Me, I got tired of getting slapped in the face and then being tought about forgiveness just to move me into an area where I cloud be slapped again, (and again and again and so on) So am I for RW Davis "YES" hes doing what he thinks God wants him to do and; has deticated his life to doing just that. Am I against RW Davis "YES" in that I don't like his hard cold iron handed ways of dealing with people that just wanted help with thier walk with God. He's even got his congragation menbers useing the "Innuendo" ploy to make another member feel bad about a decition she had made. Goodnight. (Message edited by still in pain on July 09, 2007) | ||
| ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 63.229.10.254 |
Thanks for your candidness. You know, if you read the article I posted above it brings out this very point. That people who are narcissistic have a two-edged personality. On one hand they move alot of people to set great goals or achieve great things; on the other they allienate and run off alot of fine Christians. So while it's true that alot of people get saved under ntcc, those same people eventually leave because of the same reasons you left. We all got tired of being treated bad, or being verbally abused all the time. In my opinion the negative outweighs the positive. All of us here are in the same boat, so we know what you're going through. | ||
| mklo Member Username: mklo Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
Wood, hay, stubble... | ||
| still_in_pain New member Username: still_in_pain Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 67.170.115.170 |
ctyankee "All of us here are in the same boat, so we know what you're going through". That is what is both Intriguing and Frightening about this whole ordeal. | ||
| bro_derrick Intermediate Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.193.226.55 |
Stumblers, bumblers, and tumblers can be easily excused. Adulterers, drunkards, and thieves can be forgiven. But dedicated destroyers of souls for the sole purpose of power to profit can no longer be winked at nor kept company with, but must be avoided at all costs. Scripture has thoroughly taught me that there is a definite line which people can cross in the ministry to where they are in fact and sentiment antichrists, without natural affection and past all human feeling. All the posts on these threads by the rebels and the loyalists all point to one simple fact: Either Davis truly is the greatest man of God on earth (as we believed), or he is the lowest man of sin for the devil. There is no room for any in between: Neither Davis nor God will allow it. If there is any doubt about Davis' holiest of all ministry on earth, then Davis sees you as 'not all the way in', and if there is any doubt that Davis' business corrupts absolutely, then (I say) you need to spend more prayerful time with God's Word and His Spirit to guide you unto the whole truth of the matter... My position of faith, which I have gotten from God's Word of faith, is simple: I have absolutely no respect, honor, nor apreciation at all for the building, power, and accumulation of wealth that Davis' has created for himself in misuse and abuse of God's ministry of the saints. I recognize the gradual leavening of his heart, mind, and soul which he has gotten by such a false ministry, and I recognize from Scripture and Davis' own words exactly where it began and has concluded itself. I also know that like all antichrists, Davis started as a good Christian like any other, but he will not at all finish as such without great repentance. He began the race well; he began to race wrong; and he now refuses to race right. This is not stumbling and bumbling and Narcissistic tendencies, but rather an all-out, feverish lust-driven total consumptive push to succeed in making God's ministry a personal business, that will absolutely discredit, defame, falsely accuse, separate, and finally destroy any person on earth, especially a Christian, that Davis percieves would get in the way of that success and it's determined profit for himself and for his personal family's inheritance. Like Paul the apostle, all the profiting he did in the Jews' religion he then counted as but dung, that he may win Christ. And so, all such profit-seeking Davis has done in the Christians' religion I now count as but dung, that I may be a sheep of Jesus once again... | ||
| ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 63.229.10.254 |
I think the saying, "Time heals all wounds" applies here. With time comes healing, with time comes objectivity. When I first left the org I was pretty depressed. I felt like I had wasted many years of my life, when if I had known the future, I could have applied that energy and sacrifice to something worthwhile, like the missionary field, or a better church, or even succeeding in a business endeavor. But we can't take back the past. I decided that all we can do is trust God and go on from here. We lost alot of years, but we're also older and wiser. A big part of the healing process for me was connecting with old friends and posting on Factnet- which gives me an outlet to vent some of my frustrations of ntcc. When I first left I just wanted to go quietly and not say anything negative about anyone. But, as I began to hear story after story of people being done wrong- and mentally and emotionally abused by the church that is suppose to help them- I changed that viewpoint. Many of the stories I heard (many firsthand) were exactly the same things that had happened to us over the years. And I realized that I wasn't the only one going through this, but that the problem is a prevalent one throughout ntcc. Whatever ntcc says, they have a long history of hurting the ones they are supposed to be helping; and pushing away those who have been faithful to the program for years. The interesting thing about us humans is that we have a reluctance to change, even when the situation gets bad. The church is falling apart, the pastor's abusive, the ships sinking, the job stinks, ect-- but we still cling to it, even though it's harming us. Like a woman in an abusive relationship, and all the neighbors wonder why she won't leave. It's not until we've had to endure it for a long time that we finally come to the realization that we need to get out of this thing or it's going to destroy us. But I do believe that now that we are out of ntcc, "God will restore that which the locusts have eaten". | ||
| pelfdaddy Intermediate Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 295 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.217.116.85 |
Derrick, I do not think that your accurate description of "what" happened to Davis addresses the question of "why", but I do think that a Narcissistic personality is as good a reason as any offered so far. I do not believe his is a case of a good man gone bad through temptations of the carnal nature; but of a bad man gone worse because he brought his evil with him into God's family. | ||
| ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 65.102.161.161 |
Shortly after I left NTCC, and while I was still grappling with why this church treats it’s faithful members so bad, I went to a business class that really opened my eyes to what the church is all about. The teacher was talking about the four basic personality types that people have. She drew a diagram on the board, with some personality questions and told us to separate into the group we thought we belonged. There were about 50 people in this class. After we divided into four groups, there were two large groups and two tiny groups. She then began to describe each group, their pros and cons, and even what type of car they drove. She first walked over to a group of about 5 people and said, “This group is the CONTROLLERS. These people are in charge and they want everybody to know it. They don’t care about you or what you want, they are going to tell what to do and you are going to do it. They don’t want your feedback or opinions-- they just want you to shut up and obey. Their pro is that they can run large businesses; their con is that they are NOT people persons and offend a lot of people. They drive a luxury car, because they want everybody to know how important they are.” Then she walked over to my group. “These are the FELLOWSHIPPERS (or a similar name). They are all about relationships and having friends. They are the most productive of all the groups, because they get along so well with others, and are so nice. Their con is that they are passive, just do what they are told, and don’t speak up because they don’t want to rock the boat. They drive SUV’s and minivans, because you can get a lot people in one.” Then she added, “Guess who controls this group? The Controllers!!” When she said that, a huge light bulb went off in my head. I said, “That’s New Testament Christian Church!! The leaders are the Controllers, and the members are the Fellowshippers. That’s exactly the way it is! They don’t want our opinion, just for us to shut up and obey.” (The other two groups were the Analysts (who can’t make a decision until they’ve looked at something from every angle); and the Fun Group (They just want to party and have a good time). The point I’m making is that R. W. Davis is the stereotypical Controller and he does run a lot of good people away. He also, because of his harsh personality, has caused a lot of damage to families and people. Some leave and become productive members of other churches; others never recover and have emotional or psychological problems. Most people I’ve personally talked to said they would never trust a church again, or at least never would allow a church to control them again. That experience really gave me some answers. Also, the teacher of that class said that EACH personality type were LEADERS! The big problem with NTCC is that they want every minister to be ONE personality-- Rev. Davis’. And you aren’t that personality type then you will NEVER be a success in their ministry or church. | ||
| ctyankee Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 65.102.161.161 |
And let me add-- If you look at the results from the time ntcc started until the present, and weigh in those few who have been reached and stayed in, versus the thousands that have been reached and left (many harmed and/or disollusioned)-- then we can conclude that r.w.davis' ministry has been a total, abject failure. [Success being the number of people reached and still in the church, NOT how much MONEY his church made, or how many possessions he has]. | ||
| bro_derrick Intermediate Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 167 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.216.34.236 |
'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.' (John 17) Jesus had many come to Himself and most be kept by Himself but one, the son of perdition. Davis has had many coming to himself and most have left himself in disgust, and so they must be many sons of perdition for Davis to be the right one... As Brian said: when many have left you, refusing to return, who is wrong? You, or the many? Here we see in Scripture that it is not Christ-like in His ministry to have many depart from you in disgust, after having once loved you so loyally. | ||
| tracy_pelfrey Member Username: tracy_pelfrey Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 69.208.0.23 |
Davis clearly states at every conference...and in his classes...that if people aren't coming to your church...or if they don't stay...then it is the fault of the man behind the pulpit. Well, Davis and Kekel have spent the better part of the last how many years up in Graham behind the pulpit... ...and as I've mentioned in another thread... ...if you judge the church in Graham by the same standards which Davis and his overseers judge the churches outside of Graham... ...then they are a failure. Most of the congregation is made up of people who have to be there...such as Bible College students and those who have "failed out on the field" or who have been assigned to Graham...such as lay pastors and the like. When you take away all of those people... ...there have never been many "pure" church members. A very small number stay. And I don't want to presume what people are thinking, but I know that many have thought the same thing at conferences when Davis holds up Kekel as the example of a preacher who knows how to "build" and "grow" a church... ...and I recall one conference in particular when Davis got all over T. Wright...and told him in front of everyone that he should watch and emulate Kekel and his ways in Graham... ...most of us probably "began" to think the same thing...and we had to push those thoughts down...and that is...that Kekel hasn't built anything in Graham. Whatever was there...was given to him. It was ready made. And, it still is. Pull out all of those folks who arerequired to be in Graham...and let's see what he can do. He'd have to spend less time on his house and his guitar building and his house maintenance, etc...and do what every other preacher in NTCC has to do... ...knock on doors. ...follow up. ...see little or nothing of his family. ...make all the arrangements for overseers when they come through town and spend all your time entertaining them. ...and on and on. We've covered it here before... ...but Davis doesn't dare ALLOW him to be put into a position to appear to be a failure by his own standards. It won't happen. When he tours the countryside and visits the churches... ...they know he doesn't have anything to offer them. He is too far removed from their plight...and he knows it and they know it. He's going to do what he can, along with his wife...to charm those preachers out on the field out of thinking about the fact that he has nothing to offer them. | ||
| tracy_pelfrey Member Username: tracy_pelfrey Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 69.208.0.23 |
This is the first section of the article which CTYank made reference to at the beginning of this thread: Understanding Narcissism by Paul M. Floyd, M.Div., J.D. and Bruce Narramore, Ph.D. Jim is a 43-year-old regional sales manager. When people first meet him, they find him charming, pleasant, and endearing. But as they get to know Jim better, they see another side. During planning meetings at church and work, Jim often dominates the conversation. He tells everyone his opinion, whether they want to hear it or not. And he doesn’t like being challenged or out voted. Jim is hypersensitive to criticism and acts like he is someone special whom others should admire and defer to. He also has a short fuse when things don’t go his way or when people keep him waiting. At restaurants, for example, Jim always expects to get the table he wants when he wants it. If he has to wait, he becomes curt and angry. People who know Jim well eventually tire of his self-centeredness and “know-it-all” attitude. Since he is so focused on himself, Jim, has difficulty being sensitive to others and has few close friends. Even when he does helpful things, he seems to be motivated more from his desire to look good or be a leader than by a real concern for the people he is helping. At home, Jim’s wife and children find him difficult. He expects them to see things his way and appreciate everything he does. Jim has a hard time relating to anyone in an intimate peer way for any sustained period of time. In short, Jim is a narcissistic personality. This introduction to this article reminds me of how Davis has to be the center of the universe and the beginning and ending and everything inbetween of every conversation when anyone else is in the same room with him...be it at his house, or in the Fellowship Hall...wherever. He has declared at times...that he does all the talking...because he is the one that has something to "say". What do you know? What do you have to offer? He has so much, right? Like the same few stories that he retells over and over and over again. Many of the stories he tells in his classes are the same also, but they have nothing to do with being a preacher and spreading the Good News of the Gospel, but they have to do with his friendships with men who were great in business. He has no stories to tell of all the people he meets and comes in contact with and how that he shares Christ with them. None...nada. He tries to claim that he is responsible for all of the folks that you bring to church. Because, he says, you are under HIS MINISTRY. (another of his many manmade doctrines) And while you are out there knocking on doors and doing the actual one-on-one with folks... he has to be home...before the Lord...receiving THE MESSAGE...so that he can preach to the men and women that you "bring in". AFter all....they must come to the church so that God can move by His Holy Spirit and convict them. That is what he tells everyone. That is what the lay pastors are supposed to tell the "Sponsors". That is why you don't speak to people about God if you can help it when you visit with them or meet them on the street. You HAVE TO GET THEM IN CHURCH. What a crock! The only reason they want you to get those people in a pew is so that they can reach in their pocket and pull out that greenback. That is what Davis teaches. | ||
| victorjohanson Intermediate Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 211 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.67.71.15 |
"Pull out all of those folks who arerequired to be in Graham...and let's see what he can do." No--deprive him of his fortune, and let him go to a strange and faraway city where he knows no one and then we'll see what he can do. In a sense, RWD has deprived him of the value of this experience. If he had ever gone through it, he would have never ridiculed pioneer pastors from the pulpit for having a room full of empty chairs. To anyone who has done it, even getting that far is quite an accomplishment, and he would know so if he had tried it himself. "Davis clearly states at every conference...and in his classes...that if people aren't coming to your church...or if they don't stay...then it is the fault of the man behind the pulpit." He also clearly states that the pastor of a church is the chief soul winner. But where are his personal converts? We were forbidden to witness to certain ones, who were considered his 'projects.' But I never knew one of them to be redeemed, and as far as I know, I've never met even one single person he 'won to the Lord.' | ||
| steve_tyrer Junior Member Username: steve_tyrer Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.152.173.252 |
Rev Davis used to use the book "How to Go Soul Winning" by Jack Hyles. I was sold on it. For the first couple of years I was pastoring, I would walk around and go over the "Roman's Road" with unbelievers. It really made me happy thinking that I was leading unbelievers to Christ. Then it was being changed to just invite people to church. It's kind of funny, I kept on soul winning even though I felt somewhat guilty. How in the world can someone feel guilty for soul winning? | ||
| tracy_pelfrey Member Username: tracy_pelfrey Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 69.208.0.23 |
"Jim has a hard time relating to anyone in an intimate peer way for any sustained period of time. In short, Jim is a narcissistic personality." I don't think Davis has any REAL friends to speak of. Any real and genuine relationships. I find that very sad. He has caused this pathetic situation. All he has around him are "yes men" and "yes women". That's why...those of us...who do not have all the amenities in life that Davis does...have so much more. We have real friendships. Genuine. The real McCoy. We don't have to worry that someone is our friend because they fear us. Most of us don't have a whole lot monetarily or materially to offer...but we have unconditional love and friendship to offer one another...and that is priceless. Davis doesn't know what that is like...because he calls people his friend and drops them like a hot iron if they dare to disagree with him and goes so far as to call them a reprobate and crossed with God and wicked and evil...in public...and to cause others to think the same way. We've seen Kekel do the same thing and all of the overseers in NTCC...whether they disagree in their heart or not with the actions of Davis...on the surface, they not only have to agree, but they must say it out loud...publicly. Whatsoever he says about a person or a group of people...such as those of us who have left...they must repeat the same thing to others. He causes others to lie and to sin and to spread rumors and gossip...just to avoid looking bad himself. Davis has no use for you as a friend or otherwise if you don't agree with him. He cannot be reasoned with on the matter and his overseers are as unreasonable as he is if you are found to be in contradiction to his beliefs. Unfortunately, for those of you who don't believe my words...your day will come. You will find out how special you are to the Davis' and the Kekels and the Johnsons, etc...(it's CONDITIONAL "special") ...just dare to leave. Dare to disagree. Dare to ask a question which reveals that you are following a certain line of thinking in your mind and in your heart. It will not be tolerated...and neither will you. Take note of where the door is, because if you begin to disagree or question doctrine...you will be told to leave. You know, just like Jesus did to those who disagreed with and questioned Him... (NOT!)}}} | ||
| tracy_pelfrey Advanced Member Username: tracy_pelfrey Post Number: 921 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 69.208.11.103 |
I've always wanted to do this, so here goes: *bump* | ||
| cybercafe New member Username: cybercafe Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.73.89.231 |
What is the phone number/nearest location of the New Testament Christian Church? I'm located in New York City | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1347 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
Go to www.newtestamentchristianchurches.org , click on the link that say "Find Us," and follow the trail. And be careful. | ||
| godisright New member Username: godisright Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 70.218.210.113 |
You can find our churches on our website, and we have a couple of them in New York. Do not listen to these people, because they are finding fault for no good reason, but it's always been the same way. If the world is finding so much fault with a church, then something must be right about it! Pastor Davis is the last person on earth to love himself and not others. He has given most of his life to the calling of God. He gave into God long ago to preach, and he has been calling on others to do the same. This is nothing but a bunch of psychological knowledge that helps people leave the truth for all to see! People don't want that calling anymore and they don't want that gospel either. It was Paul's and is still God's one true gospel! It's the right message still and worth fighting the devil and serving God for, and that's what we do too! All others are cursed. That's all ther is too it, no matter how it makes these people feel, and like others who left God's gospel, so they left it and used to preach it also! But we don't have to let them take us out or get in the way at all! Why did you leave it? Well? What's wrong? Holiness!And you want to make it look like other's fault for His calling and gospel. You would accuse God if you could, but you can't, and so you find fault with His man! GOD STILL HAS HIS WORD IN THE WORLD AND IT IS STILL RIGHT! PRAISE GOD! | ||
| mklo Advanced Member Username: mklo Post Number: 648 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 216.229.186.218 |
If you visit a local NTCC franchise, don't be afraid to ask questions until you get satisfying answers. Ask about the history of the organization, how church finances are handled, etc. Keep your eyes and ears open. And don't drink the Kool-Aid. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1807 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.218.210.113 |
Perfect. Take a look at your assigned 'soulwinner' (!)(Ha!) And don't expect REAL answers. Let their slippery vagueness be a clue for you, too... Recieve the gospel, if it's Scripture, and be blessed of God, but don't swallow the Leader's program and rule. And be forewarned: the top guys are in the guilt of adultery, especially with that of others for the sake of their Leadership: 'Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.'(Rom 16:17) | ||
| meisteremh Member Username: meisteremh Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 130.76.32.19 |
godisright said: "If the world is finding so much fault with a church, then something must be right about it!" that's a flawed argument. I mean, Saddam Hussein could've said "Hey, Osama bin Laden and the U.S. both hate me, so I must be right!" or maybe something like this: Almost everyone dislikes the Jehovas Witnesses stopping by their door, so they must be doing something right! what a flawed argument. | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
Godisright. "Why did you leave it? Well? What's wrong? Holiness!And you want to make it look like other's fault for His calling and gospel. You would accuse God if you could, but you can't, and so you find fault with His man!" Why did R.W. Davis leave the organization he was first associated with? I guess you'll probably justify that. You are a good example of what we talk about when we say," NTCC teaches that if you leave NTCC you are not saved, and probably never will be according to them." When you said, "and others who left God's gospel." You just admitted to this by the statement you made. I used to say the same things, and it's because I heard ministers and brethren say it; I was under there control, and as I can see, you are under there control now, but we'll see how long you last. People leave NTCC because of the controling spirit of the leadership for the most part. If Mr. Davis was God's man, why is he so ineffective in reaching souls. Billy Graham reached over 2.5 million souls during his years in the ministry. And by the way, those 2.5 million are the ones who repented; he preached to over 1 billion. It seems to me that Mr. Graham is God's man, but God has many men, not just Billy Graham, but you make it seem like Mr. Davis is God's only man. The last church I went to associated with NTCC only had 8 people and the church has been there for over 10 years. As a matter of fact 80% for NTCC churches are like that. I dare you say look at the church in Graham, because if you take away the students, and the ministers; it would be relatively small compared to a lot of churches today. Why is that? By the way; are you a minister or a student at NTCC? Do they know you are on this site. Shame on you, you know you have to get their permission before you get involved in chat rooms. | ||
| ctyankee Intermediate Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 179 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 69.244.208.162 |
According to Rev. Davis Billy Graham cannot be a Christian, because he is not "holiness". NTCC's belief is that it doesn't matter that 2.5 million prayed for salvation under Rev. Graham, they really aren't saved unless the women wear dresses and don't cut their hair; and the men have short hair and dress clean cut. Billy Graham is the real man of God. Loyalists will defend NTCC and say that they are the only ones with the REAL truth and on there way to heaven. So what is God supposed to do with the billions of people in this world who will never see an NTCC church? Condemn them to hell? | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
It's funny to me how Mr. Davis can say what is holiness, and what is not. Holiness starts on the inside. I think Mr. Graham has enough Holy Spirit to know what holiness is, and the Holy Spirit that fills those who pray for salvation also; "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." A true Christian who is really saved knows how to live for God, and don't need any man to teach them how to dress. If it is a sin to wear jeans then it's a sin to even own a pair. Yet Mr. Kekel has jeans, and a lot of Revs. I've been around has jeans. It's like saying drinking alcohol is sin, but yet you have it in the frig! They say that it's not a sin to wear jeans, yet they look down on people who wear them. If it's a sin for women to wear pants, then no woman in the military that goes to NTCC is saved, because they have to wear pants. It's also funny that Jesus, nor any of the apostles ever condemned people about the way they dressed, or even taught about how Christians should dress. | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
It's funny to me how Mr. Davis can say what is holiness, and what is not. Holiness starts on the inside. I think Mr. Graham has enough Holy Spirit to know what holiness is, and the Holy Spirit that fills those who pray for salvation also; "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." A true Christian who is really saved knows how to live for God, and don't need any man to teach them how to dress. If it is a sin to wear jeans then it's a sin to even own a pair. Yet Mr. Kekel has jeans, and a lot of Revs. I've been around has jeans. It's like saying drinking alcohol is sin, but yet you have it in the frig! They say that it's not a sin to wear jeans, yet they look down on people who wear them. If it's a sin for women to wear pants, then no woman in the military that goes to NTCC is saved, because they have to wear pants. It's also funny that Jesus, nor any of the apostles ever condemned people about the way they dressed, or even taught about how Christians should dress. | ||
| donethat Junior Member Username: donethat Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.212.68.170 |
"Holiness" Why is it that NTCC is more concerned with the length of a person hair than the condition of their soul? SOMEONE needs to SHOW me that God requires hair to be an exact length in order to make it to Heaven. I used to believe everything that was spoonfed to me. The truth is I can't find those things in the Bible. It's just not in there. Who really thinks that Billy Graham cannot be a Christian? Man made rules have crushed far to many people. | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
donethat You should have said, "who really thinks Billy Graham is not saved." This would be NTCC excuse for the reason they dress the way they do, "We are not to conform to the world." My reply would be, "you already have, because all politicians wear suits, and they dress casual; kind of the same way you do. Even some pimps wear suits, along with Mob figures, and most ungodly rich men." They are of the world; they dress like that, NTCC dress like that, so NTCC has conformed to the world. I still dress casual, and I like wearing suits to church, but that is not what makes me saved. Just one more thing to add; this is for Godisrigt, since he said those who leave NTCC has left the gospel. The bible said, "those that call on the name of Jesus Christ shall be saved;" not those who go to NTCC shall be saved. I think I want to be Omish. | ||
| leftin1991 Intermediate Member Username: leftin1991 Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
There is a fascinating book which is an interesting read. It is called "Healing the Hardware of the Soul" and it is about making the "brain-soul connection". It is by Daniel G. Amen, M.D. who is a neuroscientist. His website is : amenclinic.com. He is a fascinating man whose background is Catholic but while in Germany went faithfully to an Assembly of God fellowship. Anyway! he discusses ministers whose attitude is "my way or the highway" and attributes it to inadequate function in the cingulate gyrus and basal ganglia part of their brains. Here is an excerpt: "Leaders affect our souls. They affect how we grow, how we work, how we love, and how we worship. A healthy brain enhances leadership abilities. An unhealthy brain can wreak havoc in leaders and potentially cost people their jobs, sanity, lives, and even eternal souls. People who lead--such as parents, teachers, coaches, work supervisors, ministers or religious leaders, and politicians are found in every walk of life. A healthy brain helps leaders to be thoughtful, goal-directed, empathetic, flexible, steadfast, respectful and emotionally stable. A leader whith a challenged brain is a prescription for disaster." So those of us who have been able to make "the break" appear to have good prefrontal cortex brain function. R.W. liked to make frequent reference to people whose "brains were wrapped in cosmoline" & were "like concrete -- thoroughly mixed & permanently set," & "stinking thinking," & "I don't have time to psychoanalyze all of you," when all along HE was the one who needed the lobotomy! Go figure... | ||
| imaskingwhy Junior Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
"cingulate gyrus and basal ganglia" Les, don't ever call me that again. hahahahaha how are you old friend? BDH | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 954 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.148.62 |
I remember being constantly corrected on my mannerisms, dress, hair, speach patterns, habits, etc. either through subtle hints, directed preaching, or even raucous mockery. Eventually I fixed most of the things I was doing until I was more or less approved. This is how ntcc gets you to conform, by pressuring you to eliminate unapproved behaviors until you finally give up all hope of pleasing God and just start copying Them. Once you have sufficiently copied or emulated the leadership, you are the receipient of positive reinforcement. Then they tell the world that they are not into mind control, and that "we don't teach that everyone has to look alike." Their preachers love to wax lengthy about "walkin' right, talkin' right..." and on and on; but what they mean by "right" is: "like this", which means: "like me". | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1815 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.197.79.136 |
Cookie Sheet Congregations baked into the builder's mode... The baker in the house of Pharoah is the one who lost his head! They liked to say when preaching holiness, you just have to throw it out there and let the cookies crumble: One day Davis' whole house will greatly crumble for throwing all them badly-baked cookies out there. Davis' whole made-up program is nothing but a big half-baked rotten-chipped cookie. (And WAY overpriced!) | ||
| tracypelfrey New member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 69.208.10.131 |
ctyankee started this thread with this link to follow for more information on your friendly neighborhood Narcissist...which in this case is Roger Davis http://www.ncfliving.org/bk_129_narcissism1.php Narcissists fancy themselves to be All Knowledgeable Beings. Another example of this in NTCC is the fact that Davis has always seemed to consider himself an M.D.(A Medical Doctor.) It's annoying to have someone who knows nothing of your situation come along and just make a pronouncement in a few seconds about what your problem "really is". Again, it's to leave you with the impression that what he speaks is inspired by the Holy Ghost and you are supposed to stand in awe of his ability to just look at you or speak to you on the phone and determine that you need an operation...or that you don't need one. Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and wanted his followers to do likewise. But, the NEW way to follow Jesus is to act as THEE SECOND OPINION to all doctors on the planet. TO BE CONTINUED... | ||
| tracypelfrey New member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 69.208.10.131 |
One Example of Davis' delusion of being a medical doctor who roams about seeking whom he may force a Second Opinion on: There was a time up in Graham...approximately 2001-2002...when several of the ladies were getting hysterectomies and other such feminine-related surgeries. I don't know how many of those ladies called Davis up for advice as to whether or not they should go through with the surgery...but by his behavior...you would think everyone of them did. I was one of them and I did not. I figured that I knew better...even better than the MAN OF GOD...and that my doctors knew better...even better than the MAN OF GOD...what was going on with my own body. To hear Davis preach over the pulpit and teach in his classes...you would have thought that God elected Davis to present all of us ladies with a Holy Ghost Inspired Second Opinion in the matter...and really...the only opinion that mattered. It seems that Davis did nothing more than listen to the Michael Medved show...and then regurgitate what he had heard and presented it as his knowledge and God's knowledge. Davis parroted any information that some Radio Talk Show host presented on his show by way of some Medical Doctor Guest. It became obvious after a while. But, from whatever sources he got his quack information...he presented it as his own. He was preaching and teaching during this timeframe that most Hysterectomies were unnecessary. When I called Davis to let him know that I would be undergoing a full hysterectomy procedure and that I would be out of Children's Church for a while and that I would like him to pray for me...I got what one usually gets when Davis is called with this type of situation: he had to offer up his SECOND OPINION. He regurgitated what the Talk Show Host said and then presented it in such a way so as to make you feel like you were doing the wrong thing. I, of course, was not the only one who experienced such a phone call. I'm so thankful that I didn't count what he said to have more value than what my doctor said. Looking back now...it is amazing to me how he presents himself as an authority on absolutely everything...even the medical field. Anyone who has had him to their house or visited his house knows that he goes on about the affects of white sugar on the body as if he wrote the book on the matter. Again, he regurgitates what he's heard others say...but passes it off as if it is all a result of his own intensive research...which he probably labored to put together during the timeframe when he was at the University getting his p.h.D. | ||
| tracypelfrey New member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 69.208.10.131 |
Another aspect of the whole sick world of this Religious Narcissistic Leader: He always tried to create this atmosphere...that not only was he blessed...materially...but he was also blessed...with good health. He did not come before the congregation and ask for prayer when he was ill or when his wife was ill...and it was taboo (as everyone knows)...to talk about bad health in NTCC. I personally know of a few situations where Davis and his wife were ill or had been hurt...but it was FORBIDDEN to let anyone know about it. Why is that? When Davis had an operation...no one knew. My husband and I found out quite by mistake one day when we had to drop something off at his house. He had his old reclinder set up in his family room and we were forbidden to mention it to anyone. He didn't want the word to get out that he was fallible. Also, along with all of this sick atmosphere created by Davis and his manmade ideas and doctrines...if you did have an operation or give birth to a child...or something major...you were EXPECTED to be back in church...quickly. And to further imbed that in all of our minds...Davis' wife and daughter would tell stories to everyone and promote and lavish praise upon those who returned to their pew in a quick manner after having major work done to their 'person'. This put tons more pressure upon folks after such a surgery...you really felt the pressure to return immediately...even though you knew you weren't well enough and you didn't feel well enough...but it was NEVER promoted to stay home and get some rest. It's sick and it is just one more facet of the controlling and abusive atomosphere of this Cult. If you're in NTCC, then I suggest you prop up your immune system as much as you can. For those of us who are out...you will soon find out how much better you will feel with each passing month...and one day it will just hit you...you'll be driving down the road...and the realization will hit you: "Hey, I'm not sick and in desperate need of rest anymore...and it is great!" When our health is good...everything is so much better. Here's to your health! Tracy | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 993 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.185.172 |
He is known to be an amateur gynecologist, after all. Wait. Did I do something wrong, just now? | ||
| ctyankee Intermediate Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 201 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 69.244.208.162 |
** | ||
| grtgogetter New member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
Am I missing something? Gyno? Rev S? I'm confused. Does somebody know something I don't? If so, that's one thing, but personal slander is another. I've had a lot of crap said about me since I left...ok, while I was in even so I guess I don't like it if that's what's happening. Now if there's some truth to it, that's different. | ||
| mklo Advanced Member Username: mklo Post Number: 697 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
The Reverend greg_s has expertise in the tympanics of denim when stretched over the female genitalia, and he has elucidated the subject himself broadly on this forum. If you're new here, there is no good way to bring you up to speed. See: "A Pants Primer." | ||
| mark_g New member Username: mark_g Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 72.201.122.179 |
And thats "Dr." Greg Shunk OB/GYN to you, Sir!!! | ||
| grtgogetter Junior Member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
lol Ok. Now I understand. I did read "A Pants Primer" actually. I just wasn't smart enough to make the correlation. Got it now. =) |
