| Author | Message | ||
     dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
In the event that this circus really is shut down next week, and browsers have lost the motivation to go down to the bottom of the threads on homophobia, I thought it would be fair to start a new thread for fairwells and final greetings. I'll start by reposting the following: Laura (a.k.a. BonnieS.), it's been good being back in touch. John C., may God bless you and keep you... and write sometime. Rocketman, write to me sometime when things are more or less together for you. David M., I respect your integrity but not your intelligence when it comes to spouting lines borrowed from the political agenda of reorganized klansmen. Pray that God gives you the wisdom to see what is really important. Whatsup, I respect your efforts to find as many certainties as possible in an uncertain world, but by trying to make uncertain matters into certainties by trying to discredit anyone who questions your pet beliefs you only make a fool of yourself. Please stop and think about it. Louise C., leave catharsis behind and enjoy the life God has now given you and you will be a healthier person for it. Guy with the founding fathers' related nickname, write sometime. Neil, good luck on finding a life to put things in real perspective. Roberta, luv ya too, whoever you are. D2 | ||
| rocketman New member Username: rocketman Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.70.240.47 |
Hey... not farewells, but, like an AT&T customer switching to Vonage, here's where you can find me. I think we should post our best contact info. I'm not techie enough to know what peeps still in the ministry can do if they know your email, but I've had my address here before and haven't had any problem. Here's my blog - http://rocketwriter.wordpress.com/ I'm new at doing it, so it's a "learn as you go" adventure. Stop by and drop a comment and we'll keep in touch. | ||
| j_graz New member Username: j_graz Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.127.184.248 |
As this board closes, there will no doubt come ‘words’ from GGWO that God has once more silenced their enemies. I think it’s true that there in no greater delusion of self-importance than imagining to have such influence that ‘scores’ of enemies have risen up against oneself. If by some chance they would notice that most of the posting here came from concerned friends who had no other way to communicate, they might think otherwise. For me, I know they (many of my friends, present and former) read these posts on a regular basis. It’s a way of staying connected to something that was once very meaningful. Sort of like dreaming about a first love one hasn’t seen for years. The Moody Blues wrote a song called ‘I know you’re out there somewhere’. Perhaps a GGWO staff pastor might have noticed some of the more edifying comments (yeah, we made them) and thought… “we really ought to call some of these people”. But, after years of being told that no matter what the source, a person who leaves, goes against the church or says an ‘evil’ thing must never be talked to on a person-to-person level, I guess I should not be surprised that only a handful of reconciliations have taken place. I first stepped into this ring because I thought my best friend was getting unjustly hammered. It wasn’t long after until I saw that the culture of the ‘ministry’ destroyed the ability for communicating with people. The way we saw it done: put people you’re talking to into a category and handle them like “this”. Many of us still have little or no conflict resolution skills. I miss the missionaries the most. I miss hearing their stories and enjoying the purity of their purpose. Even in the presence of a controlling atmosphere, the idea that we had participated in bringing the message of Christ to some who desperately needed him thrilled me…it broke me. This kind of points to conventions, but not really. I endured the annual saga of ‘who will speak at convention’…and all the drama and turmoil connected to it, but don’t regret them. What I regret is saying nothing for so long…doing nothing for so long. I witnessed people marked and slandered and did and said nothing. Some of the former pastors have said, ‘we didn’t operate like Baltimore.’ To you I want to say this one last thing. In the ‘Patriot’ Mel Gibson’s character Benjamin Martin, is French Indian war hero haunted by his past, who has found a new life as a peaceful South Carolina farmer who wants no part in the new war against Britain. He is also a political leader who opposes the Revolution. His son Gabriel sees the value of the cause of freedom and joins the Colonial army without his dad’s permission. Martin feels it better to stay at home and continue farming and protect his family from the ravages of the war. When is son is captured by a brutal British officer, his even younger son is murdered trying to free him. Martin is now drawn into the fight to free his son and avenge the death of the other. In one very moving scene, his sister-in-law is trying to comfort him and says, “You have done nothing for which you should be ashamed.” Martin replies, “I have done nothing… and for that I am ashamed.” Jerry Graziano | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.234.54 |
I will not say goodbye because that would imply an end. There is a great beginning that awaits us in the future and it's not a goodbye scenario. Many of us will see each other again and it will be in the eternal relm the other side of this fallen world when Christ returns. Some will see each other sooner than that. So, I will not say goodbye because it is not the end. I will say,"see you later" either here or there and enjoy Christ for it is He who is your all in all. Oh yeah, FOLLOW NO MAN! } | ||
| hadasa New member Username: hadasa Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Jerry, I wouldn't blame the 'Ministry' for everything including burning your eggs. People still are ultimately responsible for making ALL their own decisions. If I were you, I'd just get a new best friend, perhaps one a little more balanced and well adjusted. | ||
| hadasa New member Username: hadasa Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
yeah Dave, even though I think your really out there, I have to say I really think your out there....even though you did finally make a correct stand going against the grain | ||
| out New member Username: out Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 69.251.141.210 |
Hadasa, You belong in front of a keyboard. Preferably in a locked facility. The keyboard is your weapon, God forbid you ever get hold of a gun. You have one angry, ugly spirit. Get help. | ||
| hadasa New member Username: hadasa Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Really, since you made such a heated statement, mind telling us exactly why a lurking, never has the guts to comment on anything but only make angry little statements coward, says such a thing? in other words, want to back your emotional outrage in some reasonable articulation? it's easier to hit and run though isnt it. | ||
| hadasa New member Username: hadasa Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
This forum is basically a big joke; a bunch of people wallowing in self-pity; wondering what happened to them; I'll tell you what happened; we needed to grow up spiritually or actually become truly regenerate; and GGWO could be a tool for that; but many of you will blame them to the end for everything in your life and why you can't believe the Canon of Scripture is the inspired reliable Word of God. Another segment are decieved unbelievers who think their saved using it to serve their own lost agenda as well as people who identify themselves as unbelievers and merely use the forum to comment how foolish Christianity, by and large, is - not acknowledging a true church or inspired Canon. Your pro's at detailing what's wrong with GGWO only. Very rarely do you stand up for a positive Christian testimony - except for a few. Many of you need to grow up spiritually or actually become believers (born again). That's my estimation because collectively you have not accomplished much good on this site, but plenty bad. Just a bunch of bitter, bruised, confused people with the blind leading the blind. I'm not sure if this site could have ever been used in a postive way, maybe due to the nature of our times it stood no chance. In the beginning there seemed to be a little better constituency and there have been a couple bright characters intermittently but with the characters that actually prevailed on the forum ; It stood no chance for anything truly Christian and Godly. exept for one or two maybe. IMHO | ||
| hadasa New member Username: hadasa Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Dave M., correction at least somewhat 'a correct stand' you don't come against sin because of some political reasoning; a Christian comes against it because it is wrong and he is not afraid to say so. | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
The point of this thread is to provide a place for final greetings, which people don't have to ready through a bunch of flame wars to get to. Is it too much to ask for you, hasada, to go practice auto-eroticism somewhere else and allow these final greetings to proceed in peace? | ||
| taxidriver New member Username: taxidriver Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 72.74.197.114 |
i haven't commented on anyones theological positions and don't intend to. However, EVERYONE needs to keep something in mind when they are so sure in their position that they insult other Christians on a forum like this. If I could transport most people on this board back to Lenox in 1977 they would believe the following and lot more: - In delegated authority and all it stands for from the book by Watchman Nee - That Pastor Stevens is an Apostle and every word is inspired, as he was told it would be. - That people who leave home to go to Lenox are spiritually superior than ones who minister in the area they grew up in. After all Jesus passed by and said "go to Lenox and follow me." (lol) Most of us thought these things (and many more) in varying degrees and would have thought that anyone who questioned such beliefs was "off." Flash ahead to 2007 (30 years later!) and its hard to believe that someone would go on the attack after being so wrong in 1977. It's OK to have convictions, but unless its a cardinal faith doctrine, I for one aren't going to put anyone down for their beliefs after being so wrong before. Doesn't it say that if you have all understanding but not love you have nothing? Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. If the board closes, everyone should just chill out, have a good laugh over your disagreements and wish each other Godspeed. My God, I feel like I'm back in the Taxi being a referee over people arguming. Some thing never change! | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
It was raining hard... | ||
| hadasa New member Username: hadasa Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
taxidriver - remember when some people actually believed that the Canon of scriptures were inspired, reliable to this day, and can be understood by those honestly seeking God and more so by those that are born again; and that the bible had clearly spoken on things such as human sexualitiy, remember that, those fools, that hadasa is really out to lunch, huh, that's all he has been saying over and over again he sure needs to be villianized, incarcerated, kept away from weapons, called a pharisee, considered a homosexual himself and a compulsive masturbator yeah, that's really what all the madness is all about taxidriver, just thought you might want to know, or perhaps you do and have made your choice honestly, do any of you people have the courage to stand up for the truth, are you all lemmings, there is a judgement day, I know that sounds so far off to some of you, but I can sleep at night with the words I write on this forum, I really can. Because, fundamentally from the beginning and as the major premise, I have said nothing apart from what scripture maintains. Anything I may have called anyone was preceded by an outstanding remark or two before it and is nothing compared to the other's adjectives, and in most cases was quite accurate anyhow. | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.32.127.9 |
I'm not going to say good bye since the exposure of cults like GGWO will not end this week even if Factnet closes down forever. Other websites are still out there where people can speak their minds and share their stories or just read the comments of others who have 'been there'. God said in His Word that the secret things will be brought to light, and the exposure of the secret things of GGWO will continue to be brought to light. God chose to use Factnet these last few years in a big way to expose to corruption and exploitation of people at GGWO. But God has always been using other methods as well and will continue to do so. God can always raise up new message boards to expose cults in the future too. So its farewell to a chapter in the cult exposing process, but not the end itself by any means. If Factnet folds, there will likely be a lot of celebrating at GGWO. They will probably be saying 'Praise God' for supposedly destroying another one of their enemies that speaks up about them. They'll just see us as a bunch of bitter, negative, whining, persecutors getting crushed under God's mighty hand. That's all part of their delusion. They might think things will really quiet down for them, but they will not. God will see to that as He continues to expose the secrets of the GGWO cult in His own way and time. So no goodbyes here; there is no real end. Just a big "See you later!" | ||
| whatsup New member Username: whatsup Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
hadasa, YOU GO BOY! BTW, the answer to your two questions in the first line of your last paragraph are... NO and YES (except for a very small minority here) | ||
| hadasa Junior Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Whats', It's all an eye opener, isn't it; the government behind the pseudo docile person (d2)with liberal ideas about the inspiration and/or interpretation of scripture is always revealed when pressed, when clearly exposed, they usually manifest similiarly, like cornered weasels. | ||
| j_graz New member Username: j_graz Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.127.184.248 |
Hadasa...I will lay blame exactly where it belongs. As far as blame in the above post...I will continue to hold that the culture of "the ministry" (myself included...) did not encourage open communication, especially with regards to bringing issues or correction to leadership. Are you angry/upset that the party is almost over? | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.229.118 |
Hadasa, sin couched in political agendas is still sin but worse than it just being sin it is being foisted as acceptable and normal behaviour. It should be resisted no matter where it is found. After all,politics is the doorway to the advencement of immorality. I thought you would have understaood that but I guess not many do. Peace bro, Dave } | ||
| shat_happens New member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
HahDahsir writes..."Really, since you made such a heated statement, mind telling us exactly why a lurking, never has the guts to comment on anything but only make angry little statements coward, says such a thing? " I think i can sum it up pretty well, it's because you're a FREAKIN' MORON!!! http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/ | ||
| bonniescott New member Username: bonniescott Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.60.183.196 |
Man, I didn’t think it could get much worse here, guess I was wrong. Hadasa, are you off your meds again? Just popping back in to address a few misrepresentations: First, I never said that I rejected Christ, I said I rejected Christianity. If Christ were walking the streets of America today do you think he’d be likely to call himself a Christian? I tend to think not, and the rants on this board have only served to reinforce that belief for me. Second, I did not open the discourse on homosexuality, David did with his “important article” I simply expressed my opinion on the subject. I did cheer the gay marriage decision in Massachusetts, and I will always cheer when civil rights win out over bigotry. Is that being provocative? Too bad. Third, many of you seem to have a very warped understanding of what it means to be a gay person based mainly, I think, on ignorance. David, I have been to Ptown many times. Race Point Beach at sunset is one of the most beautiful places on Earth. I have never witnessed any violence there of any kind. I did see Cher and Wonder Woman once though. Whatsup, not meaning to doubt the accuracy of your “gaydar” but unless you’re a shut-in you’ve probably rubbed shoulders with gay people a lot more than you know. (I know, I know *shudder*). I base my own understanding on having known and been honored to work with many gay people over the years. This includes 3 lesbian couples that I’ve known and been friends with for years. All 6 women are wonderful friends, who are professionally and economically successful. One couple are parents whose 2 children are happy, healthy, well-adjusted young people. Their oldest is a sophomore at Vassar. You might even say these women are blessed (go figure). They are not in the least bit militant, nor do they have any kind of “agenda” beyond life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness- just like you. That’s all folks! Gotta go. I got better things to do with my time. http://www.berkshireeagle.com/community/ci_6281427 | ||
| hadasa Junior Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Shat, believe me, If people like yourself agreed with me, then I would be concerned. Put it in context boy, that person said I should be put in jail for things like calling someone spineless for sayiing it's "hate speech" when someone says the same thing God says about a certain sin in the inspired scriptures - or holds to the truth of scriptural absolutes and standards in the inspired, reliable scriptures. What exactly do you stand for other than pretending utmost superiority and ridiculing both GGWO and factnetters in the same breath. Your just one hip dude all around, I'd say a moral weakling who feels empowered using all those nasty pics/language against those that disagree with his little world - not just against the illustrious GGWO villians, but anyone. You guys like to portray that your so above it all; but who creates a website with all it's stores and departments, making it a full time hobby for laughs? Perhaps no one is more highly affected than LW themselves. I'd get help, or you might find yourselves behind a keyboard your entire life, hammering away at ole GGWO in one way or another. (Message edited by hadasa on July 02, 2007) | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 84.251.127.106 |
My interpretation about Davids and Jonatans relationship is this kind (World English Bible): 1 Sam. 18: 3. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 1 Sam. 20: 17. Jonathan caused David to swear again, for the love that he had to him; for he loved him as he loved his own soul. This means two men had first a filia-kind love, that developed into agape-love, but NEVER into eros-love! Ruth 1: 16. Ruth said, "Don't entreat me to leave you, and to return from following after you, for where you go, I will go; and where you lodge, I will lodge; your people shall be my people, and your God my God; 17. where you die, will I die, and there will I be buried: Yahweh do so to me, and more also, if anything but death part you and me." This is a relationship of in the beginning a relative-relationship and after the husband of Ruth died, it turned into agape-love, nothing else. Luke 1: 56. Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her house. 57. Now the time that Elizabeth should give birth was fulfilled, and she brought forth a son. This is relative love, that is agape-love: Virgin Mary nursed Elizabeth, because she was old and had to stay in bed a lot, so Mary cooked, sweeped, washed Elizabeths and her husbands clothes etc. without any charge, only getting her meals and a bed to sleep. Then she went back to her husband Joseph... John 21:16. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (King James-version) Also Jesus and John (the brother of James) loved each other with agape-love: John. 21: 20. Then Peter, turning around, saw a disciple following. This was the disciple whom Jesus sincerely loved, the one who had also leaned on Jesus' breast at the supper and asked, "Lord, who is going to betray You?" It was obvious, that Peter was jealous about the relationship between Jesus and John, so he boasted that he would even die because of Jesus and bought a sword (maybe too to make John afraid?). Jesus and Peter had a relationship. At first it was filia-love, then developed into deep agape-love, so that Peter was ready to die for Jesus! Their relationship was tested and it did not cease after Peter had denied Jesus... So I believe people can love and live together with the same sex, but the relationship must only be filia (caring) or agape (spiritual and self-sacrifising love), it can never be erotical love between same sex. So good bye friends. The episodes of Sister Mary ends now, if FactNet is not available tomorrow! God bless you all! | ||
| hadasa Junior Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Shat says: ...And Along Came Liquid Waves, and BAM!!! You Could all Laugh At Yourselves And The Fact That You Were All Taken In By An Opie Lookin' Mo-Fo With An Orange Hair Piece! Note the You, Yourselves, & You: Your parents may have got you into this (if that's your ruse), but your obviously as affected as anyone (see above post); besides you would have made the same choices: it's in your genetics. So, all in all you could at least use We, ourselves, and Us.....your not foolin anybody.....it's not all for laughs. Hope your not doing this till your 55. And if it's not a family connection but just heard about it by friends or whatnot....that's even more pathetic......you really need a life then. (Message edited by hadasa on July 02, 2007) | ||
| whatsup New member Username: whatsup Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Bonniescott, as I recall, your words were something to the effect of "I don't consider myself to be a Christian". So now you say you don't reject Christ, only Christianity. Well, isn't that so 'spiritual' and righteous. One of those "Jesus only" people....don't reject Christ but reject His church with all those flawed people. It is easy to follow someone you can't see and that you can make into your own concept. Well, here's a news flash...you cannot separate Christ from His church which is His body (if I dare use the term; it is all through the bible). Jesus Himself said "He who rejects you rejects me". You ask if Christ was walking the streets today would He call Himself a Christian. Well, He sure would not be attending a gay wedding to turn water into wine. And, as I have said before, you sure would not recognize Him, and if you did you would not like His message. I know that because you contradict His message in all your posts. It is true that Dave Munson started the topic on homosexuals, you are right there...and you went on to cheer gay marriage. But gay marriage is not civil rights, it is a perversion of morals.....and to oppose it is not bigotry, it is just upholding basic morality. So you have never witnessed any violence in Ptown. What does that have to do with anything, including people's understanding of gays. Violence is not even the issue. And yes, I have rubbed shoulders with many gay people, and as I said, I almost always know they are gay. I have had several gay bosses, gay coworkers, and my own nephew is gay. I love him dearly although I am sorry for his choice (yes, choice). I get along quite well with the others and do not hate or even dislike them, although I disagree with their chosen lifestyle. The fact that your lesbian friends are successful is not an indication of the blessing or approval of God. He makes His rain fall on the just and unjust. Success in this life has nothing to do with one's eternal fate, as we can see clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. You are just a hypocrite... pointing to all the faults of Christians, attacking Christ's own body and refuting Christ's own Word, and yet claiming to not reject Him. You may fool some but you can be assured Christ is not impressed and neither am I | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
It is impossible to have God as Father without having the church as mother. Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. | ||
| bonniescott New member Username: bonniescott Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.60.183.196 |
A parting gift. 'Independence Day' courtesy of Martina McBride Take these words with you: Let Freedom Ring Let the white dove sing Let the whole world know that today is a day of reconning Let the weak be strong Let the right be wrong Roll that stone away Let the guilty pay Its Independence Day Have a wonderful Indendence Day everyone! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYENO6r5vVo | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.182.84 |
Well, I have an article that speaks for itself and you will be surprised at who the author is. --- Posted: July 3, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Michael Glatze WND How a 'gay rights' leader became straight Homosexuality came easy to me, because I was already weak. My mom died when I was 19. My father had died when I was 13. At an early age, I was already confused about who I was and how I felt about others. My confusion about "desire" and the fact that I noticed I was "attracted" to guys made me put myself into the "gay" category at age 14. At age 20, I came out as gay to everybody else around me. At age 22, I became an editor of the first magazine aimed at a young, gay male audience. It bordered on pornography in its photographic content, but I figured I could use it as a platform to bigger and better things. Sure enough, Young Gay America came around. It was meant to fill the void that the other magazine I'd worked for had created – namely, anything not-so-pornographic, aimed at the population of young, gay Americans. Young Gay America took off. (Column continues below) http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487 --- This guy has something to say from the standpoint of having been gay. I applaud this man's sensitivity to the Holy Spirit's call on his life. (He repented and turned to follow Christ) This guy knows personally what it is like to be delivered from homosexuality. He was a gay rights leader. Good for him and praise the Lord for it. } | ||
| dancer Member Username: dancer Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.161.199.50 |
Ironically the day before factnet is suppose to close its forum I leave to enter the hospital. Long story but lets just say when your blood pressure gets to 220/160 something is going on. I will try to stay in touch with many of you. David you been a good friend. Jim chill, there is heart in there. RJ thanks for having become my friend. There are a zillion people I care about including those who dislike me. I care deeply about many who are in Baltimore, Delaware and New England. My ex wife's family got real cold when I told them I was going to be in the hospital, my mother in law even refused to tell Keri that I wanted her to call my kids parenting coordinator. Or that she would call her. You think Keri might actually want to know what was going on? Nah GGWO remains the same. So do those related to it. Its been a tough set of weeks, and I know the road will be harder. I step in to the hospital on Thursday at around noon. I actually have no idea when I will get out. I don't care if the world hates me or thinks I am crazy. I done all I could to make right what was wrong and my part in it. Keep me in your prayers. In a bizarre kind of way I have nobody left. I don't think anybody will be calling me or visiting me. Fight the Good Fight neilpatrickcarrick@gmail.com 734-778-4564 | ||
| dancer Member Username: dancer Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Oh I got say this. About four years ago I tried via friends to fnd a girl I took off the street with my wife Keri. She was 14 and had a little girl. Some of you know the story but after a dog fight with Department of Social Services we got her emancipated from DSS and her biological parents. That was one of those Neil moves. There wasn't emancipation in Maryland. Anyhow after she got emancipated Keri and I got seperated about 2 months later. While I was in the hospital Keri's dad got Keri's stuff and left the 14 year old and the baby behind on Pulaski Highway to fend for herself. In 2004 on a visit to Baltimore to see my kids from Keri I found Felicia and her kids, she and her kids would move in with me and Rhonda. After I moved to Rock City we fell out of touch, Gone to PA try to help me find her. Indirectly he did me a great service by mentioning something in an email. I found her and her kids. A few days ago she became my legal daughter and as such her kids are my grand kids. Peggy C has said some mean things about me, and so have many others. I can't play that weird game any longer. Say what you want. It doesn't phase me much. I love Peggy more now than I did a year ago. She isn't a bad person by a long stretch. She doesn't know me any longer and that is ok. I spent hours on the phone with every one of the former Elders except for Pastor C and Pastor Duff. Marr, The Stevens, Scott Robinson, and the rest. These guys are made out to be some strange beasts. They are men. Monsters they are not. Its as if we empower them with cheap names. I like the ltm expression. Its like a put down that has this backwords meaning. CHS never bothered me as much as those who would stand and clap and follow him like Jesus riding into Jerusulum. I can see the names on the first two rows. My wife making comments about a bible verse concerning such matters. Butch Veader was a real friend. He fought hard for me on more than one occasion. I saw people including the ministry take advantage of him. He might be a jerk at times but Butch had a real heart. I could go on for hours, but its like Jim F beating on old classmates. I never met you Jim but I bet we could have a great discussion face to face and make each other mad and laugh. Here is the July 3rd parting words. I never met most of you, but I love you still. | ||
| dancer Member Username: dancer Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Jerry I am from South Carolina. I lived in and grew up in Myrtle Beach. Which is about 35 miles to the north of Georgetown and 80 miles north of Charleston, and some 45 miles of Marion named for Francis Marion for which The Patriot is taken from. http://www.americanrevolution.com/FrancisMarion.htm A lot of interesting warfare is based upon the models of Francis techniques. Coming out of the swamp. One would have to know the landscape of the low lands of Carolina. The isles about the beach to near Savannah. The story about Gabe is rather close to home. My fear is to many believe this is some game of words, or some toss of politics. In real life Gabriel was Marians nephew who was killed in cold blood. When soldiers talk of Francis it is about his movements which would be used for efforts like that of Viet Nam, " Come, boys, let us go back and find the game-•••• [Sumter]; as for this damn swamp-fox, the devi1 himself could not catch him." I say all of this to make a point. francis knew how to take irregulars (non trained soldiers) and stop well trained British Troops. He came out of the swamps and they basically never knew what hit them. As I left SC I thought of Francis as I went by the town a county seat, the county, the colleges all named for the Swamp Fox. This little guy was drug into a war he did not want. He was a hero of the war in the end, his life was incredible. He had no children, he married late to his cousin, and few know of him compared to his northern counter part George Washington. The scene you mention from the movie concerning Gabriel is hard for me. My first born is Gabriel. Doing nothing is the sin I fear the most. God Speed | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 126 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.182.9 |
When I remember you folks I will think of His body being bruised,His back being ripped by the scourge,the crown of thistles pressed hard upon His head,the spear thrust in His side and the Words He spoke,"It is finished." I will think of the body when I remember you. I will think of the beautiful thing He did by laying His life down for you and will remember how costly was the price for your redemption. Your lives are worth more than anything this world has to offer. You may not know the care I have for each of you until He comes to take us with Him. Follow no man. Follow Christ. } | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.32.127.9 |
Jesus Christ want through more suffering than anyone could possibly imagine to redeem people back to Himself and heal them. He was betrayed by Judas, He was arrested, He was beaten, He was whipped, He had a crown of thorns jammed into His head, He was nailed to a cruel cross, He was left to hang there on that cross for hours until death in searing pain, He bore the sicknesses of the human race, He bore the sins of the human race, He became sin that we could become the righteousness of God in Him, He saw the Father God turn away from Him, He died and went to Hell in our place. If that isn't love, what is?????? But that's not the end. God the Father is satisfied eternally with the sacrifice of His Son. Jesus isn't in Hell, He has risen from dead physically and He possesses the keys of death and Hell. His shed blood is sufficient to cleanse anyone who will turn to Him. He will save anyone who will turn from their life of sin and call upon Him for forgiveness and salvation. Praise Him forevermore. | ||
| hadasa Junior Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.58.164.118 |
Dave says: "You may not know the care I have for each of you until He comes to take us with Him." seeing how the gate is narrow, how are you so sure were all gonna make it? you know esp. some of 'us' having trouble with the Word of God being divinly inspired and properly interpreted on clear matters - little details like that. thanks, though, father David, for all your undying care and your vote of confidence for eternal life; though I'm not sure your the one who has the final say. | ||
| shat_happens New member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
No, actually my parents are idiots, and for them not to get sucked into carl's crap is really saying something! i took one look at the ••••••• and said, "that's it? everyone made such a HUGE fuss over this tool?" and i'm planing on doing this type of stuff until i'm 65! | ||
| dancer Member Username: dancer Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
when you get older loosing your tool, will you still be his sending him sweet valentines, birthday greetings bottles of medication. | ||
| david_munson Intermediate Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.22.227.109 |
Hadasa, you missed the point by presuming you knew what I meant. I see all others as those whom He shed His Blood for.(not that everyone gets saved) Though I'm a father I am also a grandfather but what has that to do with anything? I never claimed omniscience. } | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
After endless days of wasted bandwidth i figured this much out. Hadasa is in this so called Say you love the sinner but hate the sin line when in realty he is hates both the sinner and the sin, and the repeat makes me wonder. Not even the person wo started the orginal threa on this subject takes such a stance. I am not scared of the "so called liberal agenda:" as my conservative friends are here. But Hadasa is all by him self on this one. You can't say I love somebody when your punching them in the mouth with words full of hate. Yes hadasa saying things about me and kids that would become mine and families that have daughters who meet me is a statment of hate. It is the opposite of Love. It is not ment out of anything other than malice and prejudice. I can't imagine you have even met me, my kids, my daughter, the families whose daughters have met me etc. Hey David. Your a friend. And while I may disagree with you, I thank God your not so full of yourself. | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Hadasa comes off as very hateful towards those who disagree with Hadasa's viewpoints and will call people names just for disagreeing alone. Hadasa will twist facts and get in denial whenever an advantage can be gained by it. Not much evidence of really loving the sinner but hating the sin. Hadasa is not an honest discusser and refuses to remove the log of his own eye while condemning others for having specks in their eyes whether real or imagined. Its real hard to take Hadasa seriously. | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 92 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
Been watching this with interest. Please, anyone who thinks they can, prove this 'doctrine' of "loving the sinner while hating the sin" with scripture please. Sounds like a hackneyed cliche bordering on 'religious correctness' to me. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Jim do you attend a PCA Congregation? Yep its related to your question and its not an insult or leads to one. | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
There is no question. This is what I posted: Been watching this with interest. Please, anyone who thinks they can, prove this 'doctrine' of "loving the sinner while hating the sin" with scripture please. Sounds like a hackneyed cliche bordering on 'religious correctness' to me. where I attend makes no difference to the so-called 'doctrine' and whether it can be proved out from scripture. I could be a freakin' hindu and the 'proof' of the 'doctrine' would be the same. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Jim you know that is BS. i take the answer is yes. Damn did i strike a nerve? Ok lets see if I can quote my step father and step brother. Both ordained PCA clergy. My step father to me:" We are to hate both the sinner and the sin. To some dgree they are direclty related." The bible teaches us this. The bible teaches us to love one another (all) in the manner Christ loves all. it is a mandate within scriptures as a constant. No it doesn;t say "Love thy sinner, hate the sin". It states Love thy neighbor as thyself as the second commandment. If that isn't clear as a teaching I don't know what is? I guess I could turn the question around on you Jim. Where the heck does it imply in scriptures that any of us are anything but sinners. unless you are one of those bizarre freaks who think you are not only positionally sinless (get CHS booklets out now!) and also in a physical state of sinlessness because you accepted Christ so you ca no longer sin. Oh the aroma of that bs is unreal.I feel a Waco response coming on. I know Jim you got a different take. We are to Love our neighbor as ourselves and somehow that can be an equal as hate the sinner. Next line of bs gets your hunting license suspended and your suv inpounded. In that question I will ask you this, what are you registed as both a Republican and a Democrat, and plan on voting for libertarian. I mean does Texas allow dual party affilation? Give me a break Jim. | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 194.126.101.138 |
Ummmm.... What the H€££ is this list still doing up?!?! Or does this mean that for FN as a whole, as with Neil, goodbyes and "I'm never coming back" notices are never to be taken seriously. Or is this like Oral Roberts, where someone suddenly gave enough money where God decided not to kill it after all... Just wondering... | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Dammit man haven't your learned in Christianity that "Goodbye" means " For Gods sake send a check! Unless your Jim Baker where it means dammit I going to jail. Who the heck really belived it was going away? Pull this one right of the Jim Bakers"If you don't send that check the devil is going to rob us" campaigns. Praise the Lord Factnet is alive and well. My wrist hurts. Dammit Jim try a little harder. The way your going I may see us go to 100,000 post by mid 2008. Cordell could enlist some PCA folks for us, they are aweseome recruiters. And writers holy cow! Ever read Francis Schaeffer? The defense, for myself and for those for whom I am responsible, must be a conscious defense. We cannot assume that, because we are Christians, in the full biblical sense, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, automatically we shall be free from the influence of what surrounds us. The Holy Spirit can do what He will, but the Bible does not separate His work from knowledge; nor does the work of the Holy Spirit remove our responsibility as parents, pastors, evangelists, missionaries, or teachers. Yeehaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww I read " How should we then live" when I was 16. Damn Hippies screwed up everything! http://www.rationalpi.com/theshelter/writings.html | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Hadasa have you ever so much as studied greek, hebrew, aramaic? Ever seen a codex before your eyes? Does the word inspire conjure up bashing the shint of a gay boy that you can drag into your bedroom? Oh I have no sunk into the low level that I saw with Maria T. Next S.M. will post and CHS will return to the pulpit as a result of my inflmaatory remarks. I might be crazy but Hadasa you are close to the defintion of legally insane. You have no sense of what is right and wrong other than your own idealogical stance built upon mole hills of repeating the same verses. For Gods sake stay away from a women in mestration and know that if your enemies get close kill your kids. For you would take things as such from "inspired scipture" with no sense of which way the Holy Spirit moves. | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 63.160.106.147 |
Neil, As a member of the Board of Directors of Integrative Spirituality, I don't think Lawrence Wollersheim (FN Director) has ever claimed to be a Christian. Nor does FN claim this is a "Christian" site. They describe themselves as "a nonaligned electronic lending library and preservation archive. The purpose of Factnet's news and historic archive service is to promote independent investigation and public debate and dialog on cult and mind control issues critical to our social and individual well-being." | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
John, I was over-stating the expression "goodbye" or we are closing shop marketing technique for NPO's and religion alike. I am freinds with the family of the great grand children of Steve Allen and very aware of the expressed views of Factnet. Board: http://www.factnet.org/board.htm Here are some of my favorite low lifes: Jim Whittington. Born some 30 minutes from my hometown; stole like crazy from poor widows throwing canes and pushing wheel chairs down the stage.He owned expensive cars and high speed boats. He is still at it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Whittington Robert Tilton: Sow that seed baby, make a vow of faith..What a low life this guy is..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tilton Reference: Ron White claims that "while sitting in a beanbag chair naked eating Cheetos," he finds Tilton on TV and believes Tilton is talking specifically to him: "Are you lonely?" "Yeah." "Have you spent half your life in bars pursuing sins of the flesh?" "Man, this guy's good..." "Are you sitting in a beanbag chair naked eating Cheetos?" Ron gapes in horror before squeaking, "...Yes sir!" "Are you going to get up and send me a thousand dollars?" (#pause for effect#) "Close! Thought he was talking about me for a second. Apparently, I ain't the only cat on the block (who) digs Cheetos!" Here is Jimmy Bakker with Geraldo. I like to believe Jim turned but I hear he is selling prosperity again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tH4stg3m_8&NR=1 | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 95 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.40.2.121 |
As for the love of God, I think there are different types of love. God provides the air that Christopher Hitchens breathes, yet God's love has obviously not initiated saving grace in him yet. So does God love Christopher Hitchens? Enough to keep him breathing so far. Does he love him as he does any believer? What do we do with the "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" passage? Even if we use the questionable interpretation of God "loving Esau less"--what do you do with that? God calls Israel his son. No such term is used with Esau who is twice mentioned in the New Testament as one who God detests. It is hard to disregard the Hebrews passage even if we discount the Romans 9 passage as being representative of the entire race engendered by Esau. That is really hardly a 'discount' if we consider the ramifications. Sin is not a disembodied act. Sins are committed only by persons created in the image of God, which is why sin is what it is--a transgression of the Law of God. So, if we consider punishment for sin--whether being visited upon the Son of God for us or if we ourselves are punished--sinners or a substitute are punished. God does not punish mere 'acts'. We imprison and execute criminals, not mere crimes. God "hating the sin but loving the sinner" is way too simplistic for understanding the love and wrath of God. In the same Romans passage, God is spoken of as allowing sinners to build up wrath against the day while God shows mercy upon those He loves. God provides for his creation, and so the love of God is shown. Christians are not ever called toward hatred of any, but to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. We are not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent so God calls us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Human hatred is always evil, God's 'hatred' emanates from his holiness. Our problem here however is with a cliche, which has come to mean "You may continue in your sin, regardless of what you profess and God will always love you no matter what you do." We have settled for enough half-truths. God's love always transforms whoever it touches--when God's saving love regenerates us we do not stay the same. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Jim, When I hear anybody who believes the way you do that we can spin the different aspects of Gods love to analogies of what God loves I start thinking of books to write. You cannot convince you simply believe God just somewhat loves or something, or somebody and that we should follow that as his charge in how we treat others. If anything his command is to express the love of God in a more obvious way to those who are not believers and sinners etc. al than vs. how we do it with those who are is some perfect moral existance. Jim are sitting naked in a bean bag chair eating cheetos'? Is Robert trying to tell you something? If Love the Sinner not the sin is oversimplification it is better than the crutch of somewhat love the sinner based on some argument about what Gods love is not like. I would not argue that Gods love can be throttled down, cheapened, beatened down, or worse stolen away by a sinners disposition to his creator. He is God not a broken down $150 Washing Machine only with two cycles and a plastic switch. You make it sound like God somewhat loves us when we are yet in our sin. The scripture does not teach that. It teaches just the an extreme of his ability to love yet while we were sinners. The Presbyterain argument of late that we should qualify Gods love or our love of sinnners is not in the right context. It sould be IMHO How we express love of a person and hate of sin. That is a tough feat. But it is what we are commanded to do. I canot fathom his love. it is beyond my grasp. I am just thankful I am in his. | ||
| j_graz New member Username: j_graz Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.127.163.113 |
A woman once asked Charles Spurgeon, "I can't understand why God should say that He hated Esau." "That" Spurgeon replied. "is not my difficulty, madam. My trouble is to understand how God could love Jacob!" | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 96 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.40.2.121 |
We don't love everybody the same way. Neither does God. Simple as that. Now go take your pills, you're pinging. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Stop eating them cheetos jimbo. You too could have success in life if you could get away from theology that hates those whom God loves. just think one day you might be able to buy a winchester and own a real truck if you can stop sinning. Tilton will be glad to explain that you can be Rich and have everything you ever wanted if you send that vow of faith and stop being in sin. I am pinging? You got a whip arse tougue and for some reason very little grace on your lips. Lay off the orange cheese texas ranger. And do us a favor, stop trying to equate the Love of God as thin air boy. | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 97 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
You can not prove through any scripture that God loved Esau in the same way as he loved Jacob. If he had, he wouldn't have said he hated him or called him a "profane person" now would he. Against my better judgment, I engaged you Neil. Consider this your privelege to have the last word on the subject, unless of course someone else chimes in. | ||
| yer_awesome_pahsta New member Username: yer_awesome_pahsta Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
Learn to dance with Dancer! http://neilcarrickdot-org.blogspot.com/2007/07/dancin-101.html | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 115 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
YAP I think its funny as shat you are that interested in me you go out of your way to make parodies of me. LOL Jim, Who the freak said anything about Jacob etc? You did. Your brought up the Presybterian argument that we are not to love Sinners. Its a nonsense. And frankly you can't argue the pint with any scripture. Your dumb arse when you do it. I'll take the last word. Thanks for accepting my offer to again show your weakness in hateful theology over biblical theology. You take the hate crap, the rest of us can live with our silly ideas that scripture is right and you like to pull rabbits out the hat where they are not. Thin air. Like your analogy. God loves the air... Maybe you should write a book on how faith is like the wind. Thanks again for letting me have the last word. It was great to see you loose again. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Wow, Neil, your manic phase is lasting quite a while this time... Didn't you say you were going into the hospital? Might be a good idea...before they come and get you | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 98 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
HAHAHOHOHEEHEE | ||
| ghost_story New member Username: ghost_story Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 67.80.123.74 |
I would love to know your real name hadasa. I'm just wondering if you are/were an old Bible Speaks friend of mine. I do admire your integrity even though I disagree with some things you say. Truth is that i am an x member and do believe GGWO is a cult because any ministry that says "if you don't believe what we believe than you're going to hell". Also I've experienced disturbing treatment from a couple of pastors when I was a member. It took me a long time to recover from my years spent there. Factnet used to be helpful to me. Reading other peoples stories of what they went through and how they came out of it and still have a strong belief in Christ. I hardly ever come to Factnet anymore simply because it has become a little click of people that love to talk/laugh between themselves. I find most of the new discussions simply too silly. Once in a while I sign in to see if anyone has anything new of importance to say but it's the same old nonsense. There are some really good discussions in the archives though. If you're new to Factnet, the archives is where you'll find the help you need if you're looking for it... Speaking from my own personal experience. | ||
| taxidriver New member Username: taxidriver Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 72.74.226.135 |
Ghost Story, one reason I created the Lenox Taxi Drivers thread was to try and get people talking about what happened to them in TBS and get off the theology arguments and grudges. I for one would like to hear more about TBS/GGWO. No one really cares about what people think now about theology. It just leads to never ending arguments. We all have our own convictions. IF THE GGWO DISCUSSION AREA WAS ORIGINALLY THE WAY IT IS NOW, NO ONE WOULD HAVE BOTHERED WITH IT. LET'S GET BACK TO THE PURPOSE OF THE BOARD. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
I honestly believe some folks love to argue theology more than argue against "mind control" and similar matters about cults in this space. It is sad it has become like this, and I even understand the fixation on theology because so many confuse theology with idealogy. Basically they have replaced biblical ideas into a set of concepts that control them to the point of being overhwlmed. I don't think for one second that the desire to see people "healed" of the likes of leaving tbs/ggwo is something many people here are that interested in. They are way beyond that. They would rather have somebody to argue with. I really have no desire to argue with say Jim. But his pouncing on people, and I have noticed pouncing on those who wounded is his sport to some dgree. I often wonder if he was the kid picked on, and now its his turn to pick back. I have a huge amount of love ones in the ministry. The majority of the people who take there shots at me have nobody left in the ministry, in fact some even were never in the ministry. Having said that there are some who really care what happens to people. For those who care about the hurt and hurting and those who will be hurt I say thank you. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
I honestly believe some folks love to argue theology more than argue against "mind control" and similar matters about cults in this space. It is sad it has become like this, and I even understand the fixation on theology because so many confuse theology with idealogy. Basically they have replaced biblical ideas into a set of concepts that control them to the point of being overhwlmed. I don't think for one second that the desire to see people "healed" of the likes of leaving tbs/ggwo is something many people here are that interested in. They are way beyond that. They would rather have somebody to argue with. I really have no desire to argue with say Jim. But his pouncing on people, and I have noticed pouncing on those who wounded is his sport to some dgree. I often wonder if he was the kid picked on, and now its his turn to pick back. I have a huge amount of love ones in the ministry. The majority of the people who take there shots at me have nobody left in the ministry, in fact some even were never in the ministry. Having said that there are some who really care what happens to people. For those who care about the hurt and hurting and those who will be hurt I say thank you. | ||
| cordell Member Username: cordell Post Number: 99 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.40.2.121 |
OK, let's talk about GGWO/TBS: If it were not for their screwed up doctrine of leadership, the bema seat, eschatalogy, "the cahprit bawdy", geographical will of God, table of organization, modern day prophets and apostles and succession and the theology perpetrated in those doctrines giving a false view of the God of Christianity--if not for these few weaknesses GGWO/TBS would be just another semi-charismatic evangelical church with dispensationalist tendencies. If not for their doctrinal and theological error, there would be no discussion on FN, i.e. IF CHS hadn't coughed up the "uncovering of Noah" doctrine during the whole Alan Lang debacle there would not have been as many subsequent repercussions. AND what about the whole "rebound" doctrine and the restoration of "Pastah" Paulieboy? What would have happened at Sandy Cove without that thinking? Where would Tommieboy be right now if he hadn't been able to persuade the lemminglike masses that he was "Elishar" to Cahl's "Elijarr"? It is, whether you want to admit it or not inseparably related--cult activity, theology and doctrine. If you don't discuss it, it's like talking about cooking without talking about food. If a concept of "God" hadn't been involved in GGWO/TBS what the fekk were you cowboys doing there anyway? Figger it out. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Jim I somewho think my 4 kids really have no clue why they are there as opposed to anywhere else. My point is that people oftern follow people because of reasons that have zero to with doctrine. I saw people follow CHS and for the Love of God it was not some theological view you just brought up. It was his personality, his method, and his ways of manipulating circumstances. I agree pathetic doctrine makes this all so much worse. But even churches with pathetic doctrines do not encourage love ones to leave their kids behind to follow them. That is not just a doctrine or a teaching. It worse. I seen video of Jim Jones preaching about mid way through his career. I found nothing in error in his preaching, in fact it was pretty good, but under the microscope you could see how the teaching aided to his control of people over time. To get a plane and head to africa? To get in a car and head to Baltimore? There is more to this than bad doctrine, cool aid and some magic pills for back pain. Lot more. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
From m-w.com Main Entry: cha·ris·ma Pronunciation: \kə-ˈriz-mə\ Function: noun Etymology: Greek, favor, gift, from charizesthai to favor, from charis grace; akin to Greek chairein to rejoice — more at yearn Date: 1930 1 : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) 2 : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the> Charisma is what chs had that made it all work. Without it, what did he have. He had no formal education, theological or otherwise. Unlike schaller, he had no "Elijarr" to point to and borrow credibility from. Schaller's lack of charisma is why gg is not as successful now. They are trying to make up for it with a nice new chapel but it is not working. Schaller might have a nice personality and even seem easy to relate to when he is preaching, but he doesn't have the magic. The nice remodeled facility helps make visitors comfortable and safe while there, but there is no substance to make them want to come back and watch the moron do hand drawn power point illustrations. Just because he had charisma does not mean he was a potential Jim Jones any more than Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton had the potential to be Adolf Hitler. Though chs used his charisma for his own selfish purposes, even he had lines he would not cross. He had a life style he wanted to preserve. He lived good. He had women. He had adoring and loyal friends. He travelled all over the world and stayed in the finest hotels. There is some doubt about the large amounts of time he claimed to spend studying. Most of his manipulation and false doctrine were to protect himself and preserve his lifestyle. Controlling people was only a means, not an end. | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.68.95 |
"Though chs used his charisma for his own selfish purposes, even he had lines he would not cross." I would be very interested to know just what lines you think Carl would not cross. I also must say I disagree with your assessment of Carl being a benign charismatic preacher. He used, misused,spiritually battered and bruised people who truly love God, ruined many people financialy, sexualy, emotionally, etc. | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.11 |
What she said. Seriously, could you give an example of a line that he would not cross? | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Heck I can tell you from personal experience. One night CHS preached and he said something about Billy Grham in a realy positive way. Minutes later he was with me and a few other people, he started bashing Billy Graham. He would not speak of certain people from the chapel mike because if he did he knew it might be repeated from a recording. Also he would go out of his way to make sure he was politically correct in terms of racism but his true colors often got him. On Grace Hour one time he was asked about interacial marriage. He went out of his way to defend his position that he didn't think it was a good thing. But he refused to let himself get snared up as a racist. He often would preach at raps against certain people, the obvious a Pastor who was in Penn., A certain couple who been very involved with leadership in Lenox and a few other Pastors including the former head of MBCS were great targets (I know I been one for a while  ) anyhow. He would go to the end of the world to describe how God would judge these people but how he still love them and how God may take them home early etc. That a semi truck could hit you tonight going home so be careful. Yes would not only not cross line be he make up for it, in a heart beat. I saw him go out of his way at two funerals where he didn't not want himself to get blasted for the failures of GGWO. He refused to publically say what he thought. he wanted to go after a Catholic Priest once for something done at a memorial, and I saw him get mad at the Baptist. But he would not say much in regards to how mad he was. I mean he was furious at the Baptist in Baltimore at times. Trust me the local Baptist didn't love him much either. | ||
| louise_connolly New member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.174.133.215 |
Shane, thanks for trying! The 'mentals' have taken over and it is no 'fun', 'da'. Ghost Story, we can be thankful for all the discussions that truly helped folks see the light. Your recommendation for folks to read the archives is a good one. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Neil, your post only shows that CHS was clever at disguising his real feelings, and that he knew how to malign people while making it look like God was against them and not him. It does not mean he had integrity...he just knew how to hide his lack of it. Oh, and btw, Guyana is in South America, not Africa | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Where the hell did I say he had intergrity? Talk about out of context.... Um my slip on Guyana...I was not in paticluarly refering to Jim but sure see how you can take it as such reading my post. To take me as defending CHS as having integrity just blows my mind. I know more about how he actually was than many people. He was a human as they came, and frankly when anybody makes him out to be an angel, deomon or like it makes me wonder how well they knew him too? By the way I did some work for the DOC as well. Jim Jones was far from anything like that of DOC membership. Its like comparing a regular Baptist to CHS. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
The line he would not cross was that there was no way he would ever do what Jim Jones or David Koresh did. There was never the potential for a violent end to tbs/gg. NEVER! And in my opinion the burden of proof is on those who believe there was such potential. I have never denied that chs tried to control people or misuse people. I only stated that it was his means, not his end. I think both those points were clear in my post. And I do not understand how anyone could read my post and infer that I consider chs to be benign. | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 84.251.127.106 |
GGWO on internet: http://207.114.86.218:82/ggwo_live | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 84.251.127.106 |
GGWO has lifted their profile as a multicultural congregation. I think they proove it with very joyful and happy gospel-music and the singers seem to love their job, also the orchestra. I have never denied that GGWO music quality is rather good and is a good example for other churches, never boring or judging or miserable words or sounds. Also their music is Christ-lifting and creative, many times sound humble and turning peoples thoughts from earthly matters into holy athmosphere... Ezek. 46: 1. Thus says the Lord Yahweh: The gate of the inner court that looks toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened. I think GGWO has opened for the eyes and ears of ex-Bible Speakers and ex-GGWO-members to be a "lower part of the body" and follow their services by internet like peasant folks did in the temple of Israel, they were giving their offerings in the outer court and later on Sabbath let to the inner court (only male ones)... So we internet-members and ex-GGWO-ers are the "cheapest part of the Body"... Of course the worship of GGWO pastors continue in that link... and that is hegemony??? Is that grace, or what do you think??? | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.17.159.8 |
lmao, while I respect your opinion, mine differs for a number of reasons. Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source Main Entry: egoism Part of Speech: noun Definition: self-centeredness Synonyms: arrogance, assurance, boastfulness, boasting, bragging, conceit, conceitedness, egocentricity, egomania, egotism, gasconade, haughtiness, insolence, megalomania, narcissism, ostentation, overconfidence, presumption, pride, self-absorption, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-importance, self-interest, self-love, self-possession, self-regard, self-worship, selfishness, superiority, swellheadedness, vainglory, vanity, vaunting Antonyms: altruism, selflessness Notes: egoism is an attempt to get excessive personal recognition for yourself while egotism is an exaggerated opinion of your own importance Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1) Copyright © 2007 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. The combination of such egoism, to his increasingly dangerous paranoia displayed over this years, the guns, video equipment etc, are an incident just waiting to happen. Nearly all the conditions displayed by Jim Jones and the Waco wacko can be applied to CHS, and I remember the fear, the weirdness and the lockdowns on the Lenox campus whie I was there. I firmly believe if something pushed CHS's buttons just right....some awful incident would have happened. I know of many lines not mentioned on this forum that CHS crossed. He permenantly damaged so many men and women and children in disgusting, immoral ways and if that isn't enough to convince me that he would have done more, nothing can. I actually envy you your belief that he wasn't quite so dangerous. My nightmares would be less vivid if I could join you in that belief. I am not trying to put you down, lmao. I know that you are a good person with a sharp mind. I somehow think I might know you from somewhere, and I cannot fault you for what you say, for that is a product of your experience. Sadly, my opinion is a product of mine. | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.32.127.9 |
Carl was a controllng egomaniac if there ever was one!!!! How Carl set himself as the standard to measure other Christians by was disgusting. Carl replaced God's Word as the Standard with his own man made ideas as the standard. He craved the adoration or worship of others, so we ended up with those sickening standing ovations in Baltimore for himself. Carl was obsessed with himself and his supposed importance. He would promote himself and his programs even if it meant stepping on others. Carl's mixture of extreme egotism and paranoia makes him very dangerous as well as those who advance his legacy. The manipulation of people, the guns, the video equipment are all danger signs. This stuff is not normal. Normal churches don't have paranoid controlling leaders that hire 'guards' that carry pistols in plain view inside the sanctuary!!! Normal churches don't slander those who leave and try to turn those that stay against them. Normal churches don't tell people that to leave their church, they're leaving God's will and terrible things could happen to them. Normal churches also don't tell people that they can get cancer for speaking up about a church in any way for the purpose of exposing it. A lot more insanity could have happened if the leaders buttons were pushed in just the right way. What already happened is bad enough. So many shipwrecked lives, emotionally and spiritually damaged people, wrecked marriages, ruined friendships, ruined reputations, people with distorted views of God and life, and lots more. Carl was not benign by any means. He's very dangerous and so are those leaders who carry on his legacy. More dangerous than quite a few might think. Sadly so many people still attending GGWO have no idea that the pastors they see as sheep are really wolves in sheeps' clothing out to take advantage of them and ruin their lives if they don't want to be taken advantage of. | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
I would categorize the people I knew from 35-15 years ago as fitting into one or another of the following types: Then believed that they were part of a special time of revival in American Christendom; now believe that they made some dumb mistakes when they were young but they also had some valuable experiences and that there was a baby in all that bathwater. Then experienced a sense of deliverance from a serious personal crisis, and dedicated their lives to service out of gratitude; now they are still "in," maintaining the same blind gratitude, or otherwise they are looking for new ways to love God without expressing that love by way of "the ministry". Then they were cute little kids who shared the overall joy of the moment; now they are somewhat disoriented adults trying to figure out how to relate to a world where there really isn't a Santa Claus, or other things they used to believe in. Then they were naive flower children of sorts, so sucked into the adoration of an individual that they never stopped to think for themselves; now they feel disgraced, humiliated and incredibly defensive or depressed -- need serious help. Then they were kids who were dragged in against their wishes by usually well meaning though not so wise parents; now they feel justified in hating their parents and their therapy sessions are continuing on that basis. Then believed that proper doctrinal alignment with "God's man" made them part of a world spiritual elite, and they craved that kind of importance; now feel that they need to adjust their doctrinal alignment in order to get that world spiritual elite status they still crave. Then believed that they were getting in on the ground floor of something that was going to be world famous and incredibly powerful as it grew; now feel cheated that they never got the fame and fortune they were expecting. I have ordered these from the types I have the most sympathy and personal respect for to those I have the least sympathy and personal respect for. YMMV. Questions or comments? | ||
| isabella New member Username: isabella Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.143.230 |
They walked into a local church, not knowing that the preacher/pastor was a liar & a thief. They sat there listenting to the possiblities of God's eternal Love; now they know the truth, and the truth has set them free! | ||
| shat_happens Junior Member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
Come play the LW Guessing Game!!! http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2007/07/lw-guessing-game.html | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 88.195.216.177 |
Guess what word will be formed, when you put the right letter in "X" and put words under each other: 1. The Milkmans Christian name: ---X 2. Bones of elephants: X---- 3. Mountebank or false doctor: X---- 4. Put groups together: X---- 5. The Good Book: -X--- 6. The head of a faculty: X--- 7. Used neutral liquid when thirsty: X---- 8. A strange creature from the space: X---- 9. Throwing up your food: X---- 10. Means mistake: X---- 11. Bible Speaks founders surname: X------ Did you get it? The answer is in the name of these pages: http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/ | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
This is to much to read any longer. I am, glad I been dead for a few days. I thought I was boring, with no pulse I am more interesting. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
And for the genious's that means I decided not post unless it is directly about me. | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 88.195.216.177 |
Here is my guess to shats guessing game: I think the torso is James Dean, if he were alive and about 75 years old, or maybe this is Tommys figure today??? Nobody guessed my word puzzle, so the answwers are: 1. carL 2. Ivory 3. Quack 4. Unite 5. bIble 6. Deacon 7. Water, see song "Water" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJVoslo_xdM&NR=1 8. Alien 9. Vomit 10. Error 11. Stevens What is the meaning of Liquid Waves for secular world? It means "WATER"! Your're geniuous. Ten points! Here is my reward: turn your attention to Live Earth - happenings and concerts. Do not say "goodbye" to your and your childrens future on the earth that God created for US! http://liveearth.msn.com/concerts/US John. 3: 5. Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of Water and Spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 88.195.216.177 |
Sidethorn: I think they did not carry guns to harm the congregation members anyway but protect also the pastors and church? Maybe they had to have guns because of the increasing amounts of church robberies?? Here is a videoclip that shows how easy it is to rob a church today, though this video is only a theatre piece, it is a serious warning to churches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCB3KncnDdc&mode=related&search= | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 88.195.216.177 |
In my todays congregation there is a small second hand shop in the cellar-floor and a pettycash box somewhere too, and in the church building there lives an old lady. I am so worried about her safety today, because she is so weak and maybe could be raped too.. But maybe she has got a license to carry a weapon from the police-station, you never know!!! | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I agree with sister-mary on this one. Tbs/gg had security for the right reasons. There is, however, a good case to be made that it was much bigger and more present than necessary. This may have been due to chs' paranoia or the security force's love of the latest toys or both. The mere presence of guns and surveillance equipment is not a danger sign in and of itself. We may be tempted to say the presence of these things is an incident waiting to happen, but the fact is that in the entire time in Lenox and in Baltimore, there has never been a single violent incident that can be be compared to waco or jonestown. People have been forcefully removed from the properties and there may have been cases where it was not handled properly. There may have been violations of privacy using surveillance. The fact is that at the time it happened, jonestown was a major subject of discussion on campus. I believe that if chs started having suicide drills like jim jones did in the months prior to the murder/suicide event, almost everyone would have left. Chs taught plenty of false doctrine, but he was fairly consistent. It was never a closed society. We had a very closed way of thinking, but we were always free to come and go. | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Tbs/gg had security for the right reasons. And those reasons, especially in Lenox, were...? LMAO, you've made a number of posts trying to ensure no one ever compares Stevensism with Jonestown. Why is this such a hot button for you? There's a billboard campaign running in the Baltimore area. Einstein is pictured in one of the ads, with the caption that "He was no Einstein in high school." Similarly, had Congressman Leo Ryan ever imagined Jonestown was going to be Jonestown, would he have ever visited -- and died -- as he did? Did you ever read Making Sense of the Nonsensical - Another analysis of GGWO over on DiscussGGWO? I'd be interested in your specific comments to specific comparisons raised in that article. It was never a closed society... we were always free to come and go. Really? Define "free". I agree that I never heard of people being held against their will at gunpoint. How many people remained and even STILL remain, against their will, because of intimidation and fear? Fear of losing all their friends, maybe even their family or livelihood? Fear of divine judgement? Fear of being outside the plan and will of God? You don't think people's actions and very lives were psychologically controlled as surely as if a gun were trained on them? After all -- why fear a gun and a threat of "temporal" suffering more than "fearing God himself"? | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
The reason this is such a hot button for me is because I think if not for the misinformation from the dissenting side, I and possibly many others would have left years earlier. I have posted about this before and I cannot find where. I lived on campus in Lenox. I knew many people who lived off campus. Like most who lived on campus between 81 and 86, I had a job in "the world" and worked with non tbs people. There was somewhat of a barrier between my co-workers and me which I attribute to my own social immaturity and tbs exclusivity but I had a fairly normal life. Tbs had softball and bowling, not just evangelism. We had a good snack bar and an over priced student union that Betsy built. The cafeteria food was not very good, but it was adequate to survive and there were other options. There was no dietary control that is often associated with cults. I knew some of the guys on security and I do not think any of them, including those who are still in gg today would have ever carried out any order from chs "if something pushed CHS's buttons just right...." There was also no sleep deprivation as is asserted by some. I probably would have slept less it I had gone to a secular college. What bothers me is that this is the misinformation fed to my family about tbs by all the well meaning cult chasers out there. This is what they told me I was involved in. They told me I was sleep deprived when I knew I wasn't. They told me chs was a potential jim jones when I knew at the time he wasn't. How did I know? I was there. I knew as a full time bible college student that I was not required to report to anyone regarding my work schedule or my comings and goings from campus. So what was the effect of this misinformation? It gave credibility to the tbs spin that those against the ministry were liars and evil speakers. It strengthened the tbs side of the argument to the point that I believed every thing the other side said against tbs was a lie. By trying to convince me that tbs was a cult on the basis of misinformation that I personally knew to be inaccurate, my family did more to keep me in the ministry than leave it. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
that is true....psychological chains are very powerful.....and a gun is usually pointed at you for a limited time, but the psychological bondage stays in your mind....and once it is there you choose to be a prisoner rather than being forced to, because you believe the lies | ||
| louise_connolly New member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.184.177.173 |
LMAO - Sounds like I was long gone way before you, but I remember lots of high carb food associated with cult menus. I remember being so busy with work, bus ministry, indoctrination classes under the guise of being in full time college, and going to lots of very long services and raps that getting the proper amount of sleep was difficult to do. That was sleep depravation to me and kept me from thinking critically about the condition of my life. The closest thing to suicide drills in my recollection was the group recitation vowing loyalty to Carl and his cult (corporate body). Some went to the front and did via a tape recorder. I think I was on my way out at that point and would not go. It must be most difficult for folks who spent so many years there to say it was a cult that intentionally used mind control. TBS to me had nothing to do with incorrect doctrine but everything to do with using evangelical Christianity and the Holy Bible to manipulate people for Carl and his clones personal greed and ego feeding. Many of the men stayed for years because they were getting satisfaction either by earning a living or feeling powerful. They were just con men like their 'Apostle Carl'. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
yes, the high carb food...I believe Dr. Atkins is an ex member and that inspired him to invent his diet I know that Fokine had great food, and so did the student union in Lenox, and also the fellowship hall in Baltimore...there was variety, including salads and fruits I don't think the food was a problem, but the idolizing of Pastor was, and the "hierarchy" of the elite and non-elite...there was a clear pecking order...and lots of respecting of persons And the maligning and shunning of people who left was also way off base | ||
| sister_mary Junior Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 88.195.216.177 |
This was a very good conversation about the topic can a newborn Christian protect himself/herself by carrying weapons or equipping the home with warning or controlling electronics. I heard about a Christian woman, who worked in the evenings cleaning shops and got a permisiion from the policestation to carry a strong chilipepper atomizer with her, that policemen also use, for her safety as she had to walk in dark hours from work back home. Also I have been working in a kiosk and in the backroom my boss held a real gun, because of the fear of robbery... I was so afraid because of this that I asked my husband to fetch me after work from the door, because I could have been easily been knocked down and the days cash would have been stolen then. So selfdefence is not sin, if there is no other ways to get out of a hostile situation. But never anything happened. But I remember one incident when I was that short time in Bible Speaks Bible School in Finland Taasjarvi, that a young lad robbed our rooms while we were sitting in a Biblestudymeeting and this robber stole my banknotebook from my purse. He got cought and asked forgiveness from us, but Thomas and Lisa ordered a police and the police made an investigation and took the lad away and I got my bankbook back. The boy was sended to prison for a short time, I think. Also one other lad, who was our teammember borrowed my taperecorder without permisiion and explained, that all things were common in the Body, and I did not agree and complained this to Tom and Lisa, Didi and Jackie. I think they did not answer me enough well about the right to decide about my own possessions and that was the first reason I started to think that something was wrong in their doctrine. Jesus and his disciples never stole a thing from their hostesses homes, not even asked anything. Martha, Maria, Lazarus and Suzanna served them from their free will with their possessions also maybe Peters family. Zacchaeus (Luke 19:8) did not give his belongings to Jesus after he was converted but gave back all to the community he owed, even four-times. I think even Jesus gave a permission to his discpiple Peter to carry a sword for selfdefense (at night they slept sometime outside or wandered in the desert and there may have been wild animals etc.) and Peter used it once, but immediately Jesus pointed that the sword was used in wrong meaning to prevent Jesus main task happen: to become a Saviour of the whole world. Also maybe the sword was bought to be a symbolical item abouts Gods power to judge and also gave the right to church to bind and deliver and cast out demons, so the sword was a symbolical item of truth that should be noncorrupted and sharp and be without corrosion. It is good to have FactNet as a "watching and reporting eye" about religious abuses and FactNet can be also Gods tool making things straight. Matth. 24: 43. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. I wish you nice day! | ||
| sidethorn Junior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
LMAO and Sister Mary What concerns me about GGWO wasn't as much as them having security itself since the Plaza is not exactly in the safest area of town. What really concerns me is the combination of firearms, GGWO security guards, and a very paranoid, controlling leadership with questionable judgement. Not exactly reassuring. | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.253.207 |
lmao The problem is not everyone's experience at TBS was the same. Some of us were sleep deprived, could not afford to eat in the Student Union very often nor did we work off campus as we worked on staff....long hours, little if any spending cash. If one was targted for greater responsibility, recruited to greater involvement in the inner workings of the cult as I was for a time, life was NOT easy, fun or comfortable. I am not dismissing your opinion, nor am I saying that your experience with TBS was anything but good. Some people recall Bible school with differently than some do. I am simply asking you to consider the reality that some, many were not happy there. That many were forced to carry chains they did not know they were signing up for. If I had known it was a cult, or was going to abuse my spirituality and my reason etc, I would not have gone there. I say Carl was capable of losing touch with reality enough to cause havoc and harm people because I saw him rant and rave, come unglued at times. I didn't know he had secret guns and such on campus then. If I had, I would not have stayd one minute longer. I would have been petrified. | ||
| dancer2 Junior Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.155 |
John C. I skimmed through your article referenced above, and I have to agree with "guest 2" there that the key paragraph in your analysis was the one about whether the "unusual" group provides more alternatives or fewer alternatives in life for its followers. I have to say that in my unusual case TBS did in fact increase my range of opportunities and alternatives. But I was an unusual case: I maintained a close relationship with both my "beaker" mother and my non-beaker father throughout my years there, and I was radical enough back then to even support Carter against Reagan. Not everyone else there had these opportunities for individuality. When I drifted out it was not because I was running from abuse, but because I had other alternatives that I "felt God leading me towards," to put in in GG-speak. As you know, my personal tragedy was to marry a girl who had deep mental and emotional health problems that the controlling atmosphere of TBS actually did a lot of good for, temporarily. But there was another limiting/controlling factor in her life as well: her mother. This mother eventually seized back the control of her daughter that she had temporarily surrendered to "the ministry"; the daughter having any independent say in the matter was never a serious consideration. Without the level of imposed purpose and protection from "the world" that TBS provided then, my ex quickly spun apart, and in the scape-goating process that followed of course I was lumped together with TBS as a "cause" for her problems, which in fact existed before her contact with either TBS or myself, and which have continued to grow deeper and deeper as the years go by. Then I made matters considerably worse by marrying the object of a recovery romance, who turned out to have an entirely different set of mental health problems and mother-daughter issues in relation to TBS/GG that she would never work out. That bought me a whole bunch of new enemies and detractors. The rest, as they say, is history. That being said, though I was never a candidate for serious power, even a pastorate, in TBS; though I never was rewarded in any significant way for my years of service there; and though I could play the victim role far more convincingly than most (since I was brought in at only 7 years old), I don't blame TBS for my problems in life. The people who have done the most damage in my life (other than me myself) are those whose hatred towards TBS -- coming either from ignorant xenophobia or a need to blame some outside entity for their personal failures in life -- spilled over into personal attacks against me. But in spite of all of the damage that both those individuals and CHS's gang of would-be regulators have caused life goes on for my sons and I. I would thus agree with lmao that the best way to "help" those still "inside" would be to resist the temptation to be vindictive and/or exaggerating of the problems there. As you implied in your commentary 7 months ago, one of the best indicators that you are doing something positive is if you are expanding their opportunities -- in this case, to experience spiritual purpose and personal fulfillment in life beyond GGWO. That, together with personal balance, integrity and a smattering of actual intelligence will win the day. Rauhaa, D2 | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
RJ, The voluntary self imposed version of sleep deprivation you described is not what my family thought was happening to us. They thought on the basis of what so-called experts were telling them that our schedule was completely dictated to us, that all our personal decisions had to be cleared through the leadership. I am not saying tbs/gg was not evil, only that we need to get the facts straight. And by the way, I was never able to afford to eat at the student union even one time. I am in full agreement with the CRI assessment of tbs and I think Henke's article describing gg as high control nails it perfectly (these are not the so-called cult experts I referred to earlier). Neither of them assessed tbs/gg to be the stereotypical mind-control cult that so many want to believe it to be and they have interviewed hundreds of former members not just from tbs/gg, but some of the most extreme cults out there. They have not relied on the personal experience of just you or just me. peace | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
In over thirty years of people seeing the light and leaving tbs/gg: Not one former cook, kitchen or cafeteria worker has ever come forward with a story of any organized plan to deliberately only prepare a certain kind of food or diet that can have the possibility to enhance mind control. Not one former staff member, dorm head or church leader has ever come forward with a story of an organized plan to control or limit the amount of sleep residents had for any reason including the purpose of enhancing mind control. Never mind the fact that most body members lived off campus outside even the possibility of such control. In my own experience there were "lights out" rules which actually served to increase ones sleep. Not one former security guard from tbs/gg has ever reported that there was ever a possibility that weapons could be used against church-goers or body members. Nor has any former security guard ever said they would have been willing to carry out an order from chs to do violence against the body members. Not one former leader who worked closely with chs has ever made the accusation that chs had the potential to become a david koresh or jim jones or that he had people willing to assist him in any such violent action. This includes leaders who left in the early 80s, later after the court case and in 2004 and includes former close friends and family members. There is plenty wrong at tbs/gg and I have given and will continue to give my take on those wrongs including manipulation, lying, and false doctrine if the conversation goes that way. | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 101 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
for what difference it makes, I think I was the first cook for students (I had just got out of the Navy and was a cook)--this was when the 'dorm' was the Chute's house in Bath AND for the first couple of months in South Berwick. what made the food what it was was the budget alloted to us to feed that many people. CHS was tight. | ||
| louise_connolly New member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.174.142.160 |
Dancer2 - I fail to read too much on here where folks are blaming their lot in life on TBS/GGWO. One of my favorite cliches is, 'water seeks its own level'. I for one would not have gotten involved with such a sick group if I was not already a sick person as a teenager. I sunk to the level. I know for certain the the spiritual superiority was the main attraction. I wanted to be part of the highest form of education. This corporate body that was bringing Christ to all the world. I was attracted to the spiritual elitism. I was a ripe target for indoctrination and manipulation. I bought all the crap hook line and sinker. The indoctrination was very subtle as alluded to by LMAO. The indoctrination in my life did cause me to self impose cult behavior thinking I was doing all this important work for Jesus. In retrospect, there was very little impact made by this group other than harming the lives of those involved. Most others who knew of us whether Christian or not just thought we were a bunch of weirdos. I still to this day can't eat shepherd's pie from my stint in the cult cafeteria. Hmmm, perhaps that is why I despise balogna too. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
imao, wt?. you own a gun and carry it because you need as a leader of a church. you need 9 mm's, security gaurds with headsets and weapons traning? the former head of security of ggwo would tell you there use of weapons was often for fear purposes and intimidation. I am willing to bet a certain pastor sits on stage with a 9 mm to this day.what boogey man is coming get tommmy? CHS house was/is a modest home and he had enough security and similar garbage in house to make anybody go what are you scared of? He had anti phone bugging devices, cams, etc. In the years I worked on his basement computer I was weirded out by his paranoia. Speaking to him or his wife by intercom. The same guy who had an office some 50 feet from mine in the city, never once saw me in his own home, when I was in his house. Two former GGWO security guys have some rather tainted law enforcement history. Yes some of them have offered up concerns oh CHS potential to go off, but it was not the threshold of jim jones. It was not that bizarre, but he was a strange guy who provoked some weird followers. George Robertson is what? proof that CHS didn't have strange leadership willing to do nutty things. call Rick Ross there were strange ones around who did some bizarre stuff.. Hell is George still alive. When WAS CAN's website last updated? Some folks have told some verifiable stories about GGWO/TBS drift into the potential of violence. I can still hear Pastors defending David Koresh against the evils of Bill Clinton. OK Waco was sad but screwing your daughter who happens to be your 14 year old wife is better than living as the evil Americans coming to get us. Run the NSA and CIA is listeninmg. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Water seeks the lowest level but yet also seeks the heavens. This is a scientific realty and spiritual one. I don't see anybody here as stupid. Like Jim and others they just had the potential to fall for CHS like I did. it took almost 3 years from introduction to going to church. Heck Mike Marr was introduced 1 1/2 years after i was and he got into Bible College fast as heck. I don't think of Mike as some idiot. His intellect is sharp as heck. Dave Drago, Jeannie Byrnes, Kent Sutorius, Lee and Jack Leonmard. etc. | ||
| forte New member Username: forte Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
"OK Waco was sad but screwing your daughter who happens to be your 14 year old wife is better than living as the evil Americans coming to get us." Neil, what the h3ll are you talking about, man. Use your brain, idiot. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
If you take sarcasm as serious you need to change your name. I was quoting a gun carrying, God fearing GGWO Pastah.As sure as I exist the same Pastah will strap his Gun to his shoulder harness before service. Anybody who thinks its not true after being around the ministry and these guys is a real idiot. | ||
| forte New member Username: forte Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
"Water seeks the lowest level but yet also seeks the heavens." Water seeks it's own level, Neil, the saying goes, water seeks it's own level. Unless of course you are quoting from TAIJI QUAN Perhaps you should meditate for a bit and get back to us when your thinking clearer. | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.161.135.208 |
Knowing that you deny all of the nuances that mind control techniques are all about, I will speak to your word, lmao, "organized". What do you think the tactics of constant work used by John Lloyd were all about? Bus ministry:Wednesday nite, after working all day at your job, you got aboard busses that took you to Troy, or Albany....wherever...to gather people from your bus route to drag them back to Lenox for dinner and service. Didn't you ever find it odd that better dinners were served Wednesdays? Didn't you ever notice that it was (at least in the beginning) Wednesday nite that CHS taped for tv? Why ever did we drag those poor people to and from Lenox? For their benefit? NO...for Carl's benefit. Then it was Saturday....back to wherever your bus ministry route was to entice them to send their kids on Sunday to Lenox(at first) the Sunday School. Then Sunday....we picked them up, got them to SS, then back to the city we went, and returned them. IF you were lucky you got to eat a little Sunday dinner, most did not. Then Sunday supper...lentil soup, watery and the worst ever. Then if you could still walk you were made to go to evening service to hear Carl scream. I seldom had time for thinking... homework, dorm jobs, working at the bookstore, and off campus, dorm devotionalss, mentoring other students ( a requirement), the raps, services, pastor's lunch and on and on it goes. Organized? It didn't need to be. All Carl had to do was say to make it happen and it did. And he may have been a royal a$$hole, but knew exactly how to get us to do his bidding. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you tire people out on a continual basis, you wear down their defenses, and you have them. He learned that as a bread salesman, remember. Worked in his damned pulpit and all the men and women he sexually degraded too. He was organized, that is all it took. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Quite an interesting post, Roberta. And I also think Neil made some excellent points. For one thing, George Robertson was a very sick individual and it is scary if you research his activities, in light of his position at GG. Things looked ok on the surface but most of us did not know what went on behind the scenes. | ||
| forte New member Username: forte Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Berta, Just a question, did you HAVE to do all that? Did you have to work at the bookstore? What about "pastor's lunch"? You mean the one on Wednesdays when pastors would visit? Did you have to go to that one? Did you have to go to the raps? When I was there we didn't have to go to the raps or the pastors lunch. Did you work in the caf or something? Is there a slight chance that you overcommitted yourself because that was your personality? Were you a people pleaser, or afraid to fail? A lot of us were. Some of us cared and some didn't. I didn't. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Forte I was not quoting anything. George Robertson had nothing to do with GGWO and MBCS. I mean he was only a right hand man to CHS, Vice President to MBCS and raised unreal amounts of money against CAN and ran with the likes of some of the most bizarre figures of scientology. I mean his office was not on the campus was it? It was not at Frankford Plaza. He didnt get money to start his NPO's against CAN via $'s from GGWO people. There were no guns at TBS and no security guards at GGWO ever carried a weapon? None of the current staff have 9mm's tucked under their shoulder before service on Wednesday night? And if they did they would never use them on a person going to church at GGWO or former member of the churh? Never intimidate a soul. 85,000 posts amd what can be said. Oh GGWO/TBS is just a church or ministry or some copy cat, but it has no potential, never had the potential to be a real cult like that of Scientology or Jim Jones? Flashback: I am sitting in George's office talking to him about carrying my credits from a community college, an international college, and a semester at JHU. My ordanation and fellowship with the Lutherans, The Baptist (SBC then) and UU's. He is telling me how there is no way he, MBCS can accept any of it as real against MBCS/GGWO standards. I mean George and Carl their documents are in order? One of the people closest to me in this world is now fighting right now in Baltimore against the troubled bs of GGWO. Trust me her kids 4-8 will suffer like hell over the crap that GGWO is doing and paticpating against her (BTW she is all of 22), Those who know where my kids are might get this next statement. No Forte we never HAD to do anything. As my father would say "there are only two things you have to do, breathe and sh...t. Nothing else is required." TBS/GGWO is just a little strange. That's all... Wow 85,000 posts...and thats what people think? Liars, decievers, etc, but not a real cult with real dangerous potentials. George, Rick Ross suggested to me you might be dead. Just a bunch of harmless folks who were a bit off? They day GGWO starts acting like something other than what I just remembered is the day Hell Freezes over. | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Thanks Neil, I am glad you are on their side. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
On their side... Ok whatever? My daughter can't see her children, and my other kids are at Moravia Park Drive everyday and you think I am on their side, Don't get to confused would you. | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.124.250 |
forte A people pleaser? If so I wasn't very good at it. I committed myself to God's Will, as espoused by Carl Stevens because I sincerely believed he was right. I was a relatively new Christian and I wanted to get as much out of Bible School as they would let a women have. I was flattered to be offered a job on staff, I was flattered and judged myself as doing well when invited to have lunch is Carl's diningroom. It was all designed to flatter, to approve, to get you involved. I wanted it. It was full of energy, like sun in every dark corner inside me, I enjoyed it. My goal was to go to Central America and work in the orphanges there. It was what I wanted so much. It was intimated that good do-bees get the backing, plus I loved it all till it all went sour. It was a slow realization for me that all was not as it seemed. I will admit I miss it. I miss the being innocent, blind, unknowing....for the time I was unaware of how my spiritual self was being used and abused, for the time before the ungodly schedule made my health go downhill to the point of hospitalization, for the time I was glad to sing with my whole heart in church and for the time I was proud to call that son of a b*tch MY pastor....I still grieve. It was Alice in Wonderland, it was all a lie, and I was so hurt to know what a fool I had been. But did I care? Did I want more than anything for it all to be real...you bet I did. That is my heartfelt confession. It has taken years of soul searching, of changing to come to grips with the truths about me that made me an easy mark for that shyster, but HE is a spiritual criminal, as well as so many other things. Yes, dear forte (who seems to know my name) I cared deeply. I do not regret that my heart was full force for God's Will...I am sometimes sorry that my life serves differently now... | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.124.250 |
Remember the long drawn out stand off between the ATF/FBI and the Branch Davidians in Waco? We had left TBS by then but hadn't been out that long. I recall watching the Branch Davidian compound catch fire on TV and thinking..."My God in heaven...they were stranger than we were, but not by much". Hell, I thought...they'd never have given us poisoned kool-aid but only because "the dead don't pay tithes". Besides there are worse things than physical death. A slow and determined spiritual death that you can't feel till it's almost too late is worse, much worse. And the awful thing is it takes your love for God and uses it agaist you. The guns on campus in Lenox, the tight security, strangers on campus being followed, the picketers outside the front gate, locking students into their rooms, not allowed to watch television or read the paper at times, made to feel guilty if you were a girl with short hair, the obsession of the Great Pastor that girls shouldn't brush each other's hair or give each other backrubs for fear of lesbianism, the control over your politics, the music you listened to, the books you were allowed and NOT allowed to read, the hidden cameras we didn't know about until the exodus to Baltimore...no sleep, work and classes 20 hours a day and on and on and on...pieces of your spiritual freedom, killed slowly like a slow moving cancer...more and more every day until you're so heavy under the burden it's hard to move out of the foul fog they've locked you up in. Some never ever find their way out. I can see them still heavy, moving slowly like concentration camp prisoners, wasting away for lack of light. We watched the buildings burn in Waco, and we could only weep for the people we knew were inside...still inside that inferno for God because some false prophet, a false pastor told them it was right to do...all those children! All of a sudden we understood how it had happened to us. That death outside the flames, that waning of our strength...we were isolated, kept afraid of "the world", told were were going to be the Great Morningstar Order after Christ returned because we were the elite of Christianity, that our heroic Pastor/Teacher would stand before God for us. That the Preacher Stevens loved us, sacrificed everything for us, cared about us, our souls, our well being. His lies were so very beautiful, weren't they? We swallowed them like Jonestown kool-aid. to be continued | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.124.250 |
Yes...it had all the elements necessary if someone had move one inch over the line. The day the helicopters buzzed the campus I recall wondering what the hell would happen next...we were the Remnant, the Persecuted Church and the 60 Minutes camera crew in the helecopter were satan's emmisares...I heard the Great Pastor say that to a group of us standing there outside Charis Hall as they emerged from "Pastor's Lunch". Poisoned Kool aide? We ingested spiritual poisoned kool-aid with every sermon, every class, every maligning word he spoke about people from the pulpit, every sleep deprived hour and in every non nourishing meal served in thr cafeteria. And they taught us to do it willingly, like sheep led to the slaughter. We gave evey dime, every waking moment, we sold our very homes, we left behind our satanic families, gave over every ounce of energy, every confession, every loyalty, every praise...and in the end we were all betrayed and left behind. The Great Pastor ran like a spoiled baby off to Baltimore rather than stand up like a man...in fact NONE of the Great Men of God stood up like REAL MEN....to do the right thing. The lie continued, took up it's residence and the lies continue to this day. Oh yes, boy and girls...Lenox may not have been a Jonetown in the jungle, or a Branch Davidian compound in the Waco of good old boy Texas...but we who were there, can totally relate to spiritual death and "kool-aid". | ||
| forte New member Username: forte Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Yes, i agree to that "spiritual kool-aide" remark. A lot of us were zealous in our Christianity, for some, a brand new Christianity. Some of us worked day and night for "the ministry" but really, in our heart of hearts we meant it as serving the Lord. God knows that. I have to remind myself that in all the things I was involved in, that God knew and saw and remembers that my heart was to serve Him. Many of us never realized that we were being used and abused until much later. True. And some of us, worked our butts off, sold our houses, and were tossed to the wayside when questions arose. But Lenox was not Waco. Lenox was not Jonestown. Lenox was Lenox. There may be similar places but, in essence, there really has been nothing like it. Baltimore is similar and yet I see it as even more evil, now that so much truth has been revealed and they still play carl's messages and iconilze (is that a word?)him. Schaller is a very, very bad man and the head of a very evil organization. If we could all stop bickering about the past, maybe we could actually help those poor folks who are still in but secretly searching for some truth. | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.11 |
Forte, I agree with you, but that can only happen when people stop trying to invalidate the personal experiences of others. (Let me clarify that I'm not referring to you.) It's one thing to say "that wasn't my experience" and quite another to say (as LMAO does) "that wasn't reality". People really did experience different things. To say "it didn't happen because *I* didn't see it" when someone is telling you that they *did* see it can only mean that the witness is not credible (i.e. too stupid, too high-strung, too overly dramatic, not honest, etcetera). It's no wonder that it draws a strong reaction. I would react strongly if I retold my experiences and had someone say that it was not as I said. One thing that *I* believe strongly is that not everyone was privy to *all* information. I absolutely believe that it was purposeful deception on the part of Carl. The first layer of maintaining control is the no-talk rule, but the back-up plan for that is creating different realities for different people. That way, even if folks *do* talk about something that concerns them or an incident, it would be received with skepticism by others. I think most of the bickering about the past happens when people, regardless of the side of the fence they are on (so to speak) try to convince others that they alone have the true and accurate version of TBS/GGWO history. (Sound slightly familiar?) If you take a close look at some of the statements made here, for the most part people who claim to have certain experiences are really just saying "Please believe me, this really did happen because I saw it". Conversely, people who claim that certain things didn't happen state it in a "if it didn't happen to *me*, then it most certainly didn't happen to you" tone. I have to admit, I have often wondered if they are just unable for whatever reason to consider that things happened that they didn't know about. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
anon your post is one of the best I seen in a long time. I have told this story before how I was asked to follow somebody who was important to CHS and who would become her husband. The reason I was asked was would anybody believe I was playing a security person? LOL But she eventually left and left hard. She is a girl from Maine. But trust me not a soul that night thought I was following anybody and not a soul thought CHS would do something like that. I really don't think if you asked every person except CHS, the Pastor who asked me to do it, and the people I followed L & B, could it have happened. Her cat still makes me sneeze in my dreams. | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
What did I say was not reality A-B? I am not challenging any one's experiences. I am questioning the conclusions drawn from those experiences. | ||
| johncollins New member Username: johncollins Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
LMAO asks What did I say was not reality A-B? Anon gave her interpretation/opinion. Your question implies you disagree with it. I'm not Anon Brief, but my response to your question, base on your last few posts here would include your references to: * misinformation from the dissenting side * a good snack bar * there were other options to the cafeteria food * I do not think any of them (security staff) would have ever carried out any order from chs * no sleep deprivation * {people claiming} chs was a potential jim jones when I knew at the time he wasn't * my family did more to keep me in the ministry than leave it. * voluntary self imposed sleep deprivation * all the interpretation and conclusions in your Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:21 pm post I won't engage in a tit for tat argument about these points. I'm offering MY opinion. Worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it, and I doubt you'll take it, LMAO. Fine by me. You, too, are entitled to YOUR opinion. Back in the days on non-digital chronometers, there was a proverb that even a broken clock is right twice a day. If you choose to recall your Lenox days with fond memories of the good food and all the rest -- good for you. RJ, myself, many others have different memories. But don't try and denounce the memories of others as misinformation (implied July 15, 2007 - 7:13 pm) as you tell us that the armed guards in Lenox were there "for the right reasons" and about the "lines" Stevens wouldn't cross.... | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
It does look really bad when taken out of context like that. | ||
| whatsup Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
lmao....you are good  whether one agrees or disagrees with you, you have to love your responses | ||
| cordell Intermediate Member Username: cordell Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 70.124.124.36 |
NotC John would not engage in a tit for tat argument because he is only able to engage in tit for tit arguments. | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.67.194 |
"One thing that *I* believe strongly is that not everyone was privy to *all* information. I absolutely believe that it was purposeful deception on the part of Carl. The first layer of maintaining control is the no-talk rule, but the back-up plan for that is creating different realities for different people. That way, even if folks *do* talk about something that concerns them or an incident, it would be received with skepticism by others." Excellent observation, AB. It underscores that the layers between people in this cult are hard to penetrate, and it is one sure way to get people to blame each other. This is a calculated tactic of the old and new versions of TBS. I will also agree that Schaller is an evil man at the head of an increasingly evil organization, which makes our acceptance of each other's experience increasingly important. If we are to help anyone who is caught in the web of lies Schaller and Co. are spinning, we need to be somewhat on the same page...I am glad for this discussion however as it clarifies much in my mind about the fact that not everyone feels the same about the past. | ||
| lmao Junior Member Username: lmao Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Thought-terminating cliche “The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis” - Robert Jay Lifton | ||
| rjfernalld New member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.123.81.16 |
Examples Do as I say, not as I do. Why? Because I said so. That's a no-brainer. When you get to my age… (as in “When you get to my age you'll find that's not true.”). If you are not with us, you are against us. You don't always get what you want. The best defense is a good offense God has a plan and a purpose. <name>: Love it or leave it! Don't you support the troops? God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! Soft on crime/national defense. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It works in theory, but not in practice. There's no silver bullet. Stupid is as stupid does. Life is unfair. See also indoctrination loaded language slogan soundbite Newspeak | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
Counter Attitudinal Advocacy Description Sometimes people will state an opinion or otherwise support a point of view that is actually against their own beliefs. For example, where we tell white lies in order to help other people or where stating our beliefs could harm us. When we do this, we will seek to reduce dissonance by justifying our actions. If we cannot find external justification, we will seek internal justification. This then leads to us change our beliefs. Counter-Attitudinal Advocacy is particularly effective where it is difficult for the person to later deny that the dissonance-causing behavior actually took place. Thus written (and especially signed) statements and public activities can be powerful tools of persuasion. References Festinger and Carlsmith (1959) | ||
| sister_mary Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 84.251.127.106 |
I have been writing here for one year. I think after having a wonderful summer with my husband, that I have recovered from the trauma of Bible Speaks. So now is my time to let others discuss and get through this pipe. Thanks to you all by these thoughts of Lara Fabians songs: "Love by Grace" (you can love without a cult...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjqa_Csf29Q&mode=related&search= and The Last Goodbye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcirgjQ9u04&mode=related&search= | ||
| sister_mary Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 84.251.127.106 |
My relatives and husband has loved me more than ever. I feel so good, Jesus is love. I am expecting at the end of this month guests from Australia, so I am looking forward to it! I think you all will learn to love again, and trust somebody - at least God! Like Lara sings: I will love again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxnl83HD3R0&mode=related&search= Cheerio My cat send to all ye fans his greetings: I feel good!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZcENc5ON8&mode=related&search= |
