| Author | Message | ||
     jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Uly, you seem to believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and seem to have a bit of a prophetic bend yourself, and yet at the same time seem to be opposed to many of the charismatic leaders of today, due to errant beliefs and teachings . . . or perhaps that is phrased wrong . . . perhaps you are more opposed to the errant teachings and beliefs themselves, not necessarily the leaders per se, but their misguided teachings which are leading people astray . . . some of the leaders listed on the FactNet EN threads that are not a part of EN, I have been surprised to see . . . and please correct me if I am wrong here in my impressions regarding what you believe . . . . . . but from watching things play out over the years, there does seem to be a huge leadership ethics crisis in the charismatic portion of the church today. Are there any charismatic leaders that you feel do line up properly? I am curious to know, because it seems like most of the mainstream charismatic leadership in the church today seem to support errant teachings . . . are there any charismatic leaders that you feel do line up properly with what the scripture teaches? Perhaps it is just that I have been exposed to a certain circle of leadership, and I haven't met the good ones, I don't know . . . but leader, after leader, after leader, after leader has fallen into gross sin and been exposed, or been exposed to hold to some heresy teachings it seems . . . perhaps there are many in the charismatic mainstream that hold to sound doctrine and teaching and have that Godly character that is so needed to be leader, and perhaps I have just happened to have had the bad luck to be exposed to all of the bad apples in my past it seems, so to speak . . . but I am curious to know your thoughts. Do you think that the character flaws being exposed in many of the charismatic leaders is mainly a result of them following corrupted teachings and then spreading these falsehoods, or is it perhaps the wrong emphasis that is happening that is causing some of this as a result . . . i.e., more of an emphasis on the gifts of the spirit, as opposed to growing in the fruit of the spirit, the love joy peace patience goodness kindness gentleness self-control . . .??? | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
There is a lot of tremendous information here, but at the same time, I have to think it probably leaves many Christians that do believe in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit, in a quandry as to what to trust and where to go . . . One thing I believe, it is not those that are outright opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ that are the biggest threat to the true Christian church, but rather those that say they hold to the teachings of Christ but really promote a false gospel . . . these are the ones to be truly concerned about. At least with those that are outright opposed, they are easy to discern. Quoting Jesus in the scriptures, "Many will come in My name saying that I am the Christ, and will deceive many." I used to believe that this was referring to people that claimed to be Christ, as this is what I heard taught. I have since heard that what this scripture is really referring to, is the fact that many will come IN CHRIST'S NAME, saying that He is the Christ, and will still deceive many . . . aren't we seeing this coming to pass with a multitude of leaders that claim to love Christ today???????????? Obviously we don't need to be concerned as much about the kooks that do claim to be Christ Himself, because they are so evident. This is the danger of the attempted dumbing down of the minds of people, I think, and trying to keep people submitted under a false doctrine of submission to authority of leadership at all costs, as opposed to being submitted to Christ as the true head . . . if you can get them to believe this doctrine and turn off their minds and take the word of leadership as God's delegated authority . . . when Eve partook of the fruit of the tree, it LOOKED GOOD to eat . . . but brought death. I guess, as Paul said, "if I or an angel preach to you ANOTHER GOSPEL" . . . it wouldn't matter if it was the apostle Paul himself that was preaching it, we are to test everything, no matter who the leader is, not just blindly accept anything, but be like the Bereans who searched the scriptures . . . I would love to know more of your thoughts on this, Uly. | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Perhaps there is not an easy answer as to who are the legitimate Charistmatic leaders, and maybe this isn't even the place to post an answer to that . . . and forgive me if I am putting you on the spot here . . . but there is so much of an expose going on, that it would be nice, for the normal Christian that does not necessarily know in depth about all of these different teachings that are promulgated, just a humble believer trying to follow Christ the best way that they know how . . . to have a place to go to, to not just avoid the pitfalls and abuses, such as what is happening in EN, but also to be able to receive the good fruit. Seems to me that I remember a while back that a confused believer posted a question to this effect, and I don't remember if their question was ever fully answered . . . but there has to be many out there with the same questions going on in their minds, and wondering what direction to turn. | ||
| ulyankee Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Wow, jia, this is a mouthful. You are right in that I'm not a cessationist, I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, but I also believe that there are a lot of counterfeits, as our Lord and Savior and the NT apostles warned there would be. So much of the NT is devoted to testing the fruit of false vs. true teachings. One of the things the apostle Paul taught was not to despise prophecy but test all things and hold fast to what is good. It's easy to go to either extreme... either accept all spiritual experiences as being of God without discernment, or reject them all. HOWEVER, you are also right in that I've found it very difficult to find any "big names" who have not become severely tainted by false doctrines one way or another, to the point where I would recommend that people just stay away from some of them. That doesn't mean that I think that if someone's doctrine has to be 100% perfect (or that I agree 100% with it lol) because honestly I don't know if that's possible this side of Heaven because as the apostle Paul said now we all see through a glass darkly but then we shall see him face to face. I don't want to be arguing over the glass but instead look toward Him. But also remember that someone doesn't have to look to the "big names" to be spiritually fed. Remember that it's not about whether one belongs to "Paul or Apollos" but whether the Gospel is being preached and people are being fed the Word, the full counsel of God in context and are allowed to hear from the Spirit. My primary issues with a lot of what is going on in the modern day church is that people are hungering and thirsting for the simple preaching of the Gospel and the simple teaching of the Word. IMHO, both the Word and Spirit are critical. There are certain things I'm not going to argue over UNLESS they undermine what it means to be a Christian, a follower of the real Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, who paid the price for our sins on the Cross, was resurrected, and through whom those who believe in Him have everlasting life. And the other broken record I say over and over... Jesus Christ alone is the Head of the church, the Body of Christ. So anything that detracts from the Gospel, adds to it, subtracts from it, undermines Who and what Jesus Christ is and what He did for us at the Cross, that's what I have issue with. If there seems to be an emphasis on something other than Jesus, whether its on "destiny" or "leaders" or "vision" or whatever (and unfortunately that is the case in several EN churches based on the hundreds of sermons I've heard) then I have an issue with that too. | ||
| ulyankee Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Most of the people that I get a lot out of are not big names. Including my local pastor. Wow, what a blessing to be in a healthy church with balanced teaching and a good pastor. No need to turn on TBN, go to a big name conference, etc. to get fed. I currently attend a Calvary Chapel but I wouldn't recommend all CCs because they can have some serious issues as well due to their views regarding church government/leadership... unlike EN where the systemic issues stem from its top leaders (spiritual DNA imparted by traveling ministers, ENLI, the Purple Book, advanced ministry training, etc.), it seems to depend a great deal more on who is leading the local church and whether there are additional safeguards in place beyond what CC requires (which isn't a whole lot). There are some really good ones and some really bad ones. The only way one would know which is which is by checking out the local church specifically, though that's true of all church fellowships IMHO. We've been blessed here with a really good one... it helps that our pastor has bonafide seminary training (a lot of the pastors in our area have gone to NOBTS which seems to be a decent school), but he is also gifted as a teacher by the Holy Spirit not just from seminary. I SO love the book by book, contextual Bible teaching--inductive... similar to what Tik related in his blog some time back--I'm eating it up. I don't agree with him 100% of the time--all over "non essentials" btw--but most of the time, and he is a sound teacher and most importantly very humble. His heart is to point people to Jesus, not to him. I've learned a great deal from his teaching including not to always flip out and immediately reject things out of hand but discern. Hmm, others whose teachings I get a lot out of... Bob DeWaay in Minneapolis, John MacArthur even though he's a cessationist through and through, and Spurgeon even though he's gone on to his reward. I really like Calvinist preachers because of their teachings on grace even though I'm not a 5 point Calvinist. Maybe it's because there was so much emphasis on work work work in EN that I just want to rest in Him and His finished work on the Cross. (I don't mean ministry work b/c I am active in ministry, but work to supposedly keep/maintain one's standing in the church and with Christ... I hope you know what I mean by that jia). I'm not Arminian either although I think I used to be. That's one of those things I'm not going to argue about frankly. I've also gotten a lot more tolerant about eschatology (end times) in the last three years since I left EXCEPT that I believe in Christ's literal return NOT merely a spiritual return that a lot of the present crop of NAR charismatic leaders (including EN) seem to be working toward. My main suggestions... visit churches and don't give up unless you really totally run out of options, but don't settle either. Ask the Lord to lead you and He will. Keep an open mind and heart but also don't ignore "red flags." Test their teachings against the truth of Scripture, don't get drawn in by church fads, and don't discount mainline churches because despite what people may have been told in EN or other charismatic churches not all local mainline churches are cessationist or "compromised" (I've visited a couple of decent Baptist churches which weren't cessationist). Ask questions, and seek the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance. | ||
| coppertree Junior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.129.207.171 |
Hi All, Catching up a little, JIA, were you at MLTS Dallas 84-5. There were two salieint messages to us, Marantha by James Robison ,and Derek Prince. While I do not follow everything both have stood for , in Jmaes case now stand for; they both had something from God for us. And it was similar to what Ul shared here, Derek alked about the headship of Christ, to the body, kneeled before the Word to show us his point. James talked about judging the body righetously. I have listened to both messages, it was a greeat help. James talked about ministries , small ones operating right from Hs throne room, and that there would be atime whn we would not need a teacher, but someone to just point the Word. We talked about inductive Bible studies here on factnet, I liked very much Kay Arthur's , it is on Tv at times. I hope this helps.} | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 251 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Yeah but anybody can put on a show and kneel before the word, sounds like a parlor trick, all the Christian cults point to the word, Bob and Rice point to the word, Kennie Copeland and his heavenly airforce of private jets point to the word. Derek Prince is part of the reason EN does not see Jesus as the head, he was one of the Florida 5 who laid the foundation for uncontested authority. Hmmm, rub some brain cells together people, leave it to the lay people to speak truth, the exception being Tik. Derek Prince? - lets run that by the Mack - LOL. (Message edited by 40days40years on June 21, 2007) | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Ulyankee, thanks so much for your comments, and for tracking with my thoughts that jumped around somewhat. I love what you say in regards to testing all things and holding fast to that which is good . . . it is easy to go to either extreme, and I think many times there is the tendency, when there are excesses, to swing the pendulum the other way and reject all spiritual experiences. I also believe there is a balance . . . we can pull ourselves out of one ditch, only to overreact and fall into the other ditch. I really loved your comment, "I don't want to be arguing over the glass, but instead look toward Him." Uly I believe pretty much the same as you in all ways it seems, just not as knowledgeable in regards to the false doctrines that are being promulgated in many mainline Charismatic streams (although I have to say that I am very aware now, since I have come across FactNet!). I would say that I am probably very representative of the average Christian out there (not to say that any Christian is "average" to God), just wanting to love and follow Jesus. Copper, thanks also for your comments. I didn't come into Maranatha until later. I accepted Christ in the Spring of 85, and actually had a very good Christian foundation, before foolishly jumping into Maranatha's pot . . . LOL . . . got my goose cooked a little, heehee . . . then jumped back out of that pot! Sometimes we need to learn life's lessons the hard way I guess. Seriously, I do believe in looking to the word and am familiar with the scripture about there coming a time when we would not need a teacher . . . this request towards Uly wasn't so much for myself but more for those that might be out there and come across the exposure here, and wonder where to go from there . . . I am actually having a season away from Charismatic churches at this point in time (ooohhhh, I can hear the large gasp from the current day EN'ers that know me . . . lol), and at this point in time want to receive from the more traditional . . . and also am interested in the book by book, contextual, inductive bible teaching . . . this is where I am currently at to get a more balanced perspective, and Tikie has also hooked me into some good teachings in that respect. | ||
| dust Member Username: dust Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Count me in with you ladies....I think we are tracking together here and JIA, these were excellent questions. I wished that we ladies could be on a retreat together, and ask these questions, and come up with a Berean testing method. But, I think what I am seeing here is DISCERNMENT and SURRENDER. The Holy Spirit gives us the power to discern His truth if we truly are willing to Surrender to Him, relinquish power, accolades and even security. I, like JIA, have many more questions than answers about the church. In 1998, I gave my whole heart to Jesus Christ, not knowing anything about charismatic church or different denominations. I was not prepared for the journey of "CHURCH." I had no idea of the deceptions, manipulations and abuse that church could hold. I thought I was jumping into clean waters and life would be great having turned from such a sinner to the way of JESUS. I wanted to be in ministry, dedicate my life to the Lord and to sharing this good news. The "church" was a dream crusher for me and I was surprised to see the "material" aspirations, and the value placed on human leadership. I was surprised by the way the ministers were glorified, and idolized, and Jesus seemed to be far far away. But, I never lost my love or faith for God and this is the true ministry of the Holy Spirit....that I would be able to "see" what is really of God and not. I think it might be helpful to start a separate discussion of the charismatic church in general. It is not healthy to be cynical. It doesn't feel good. And I think one of the things the charismatic church has done is bring great cynicism about religion and how wierd it can be, how crazy it can be and how man-made it can get. I would love to return to my ignorance when I first got saved where I trusted anyone that said they were a Christian. | ||
| coppertree Junior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.131.16.130 |
40, You are just jerking from the knee, no? And just looking for a reaction. A scholar would tell you that Derek Price had repented at that point., but you do not check that out. Listen to the message you might find something. } | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 257 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.163.154 |
Well I figured that out since Dereks own marriage revelation of Gods perfect choice blew up in his own face much earlier when his own accountability partners put the kabosh on his fleshly desires which caused him to rebel and realize what have I done?  no cupcakes for Derek, but he did rebel, something not possible for most. I never bought the 85 MLTS tape series so that would be a little tough to review for edification over 20 years later but I use to listen to lots of Christian radio and Derek never caught my attention. The Prince stuff never really jumped out, he was some urbaine intellectual with a British accent rambling on about something or another and somehow he would end up talking about his wife for some reason (in one ear out the other, nothing earth shaking). Hey I do remember Copeland at that MLTS saying how he had no problem hanging out with the sheperding community and he loved our cheers of our crowd because we sounded much bigger then we were. Yeah, he ate that up but Robison was actually greeted like a genuine rock star, he did the deliverance session on the entire auditorium in Dallas, good times, grrrr, arrrrr, errrr. | ||
| ulyankee Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.93.149 |
Did Copeland literally say you guys were the shepherding community? Not that you weren't but I thought that MCM had gone on record as denying that they were. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 259 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
No Copeland was referring to being invited by others outside of MCM who were officially in the sheperding community to preach to them (and it sounded like they were not sure if he "Copeland" would take them up on the invitation) and he said he had no problem with meeting them and preaching to them. Copeland was kind of talking to us in a matter of fact way like we were not part of the sheperding movement he was talking about. We were not sheperding and did not use that term Bob was very good at distancing himself with that term but still rubbing elbows with people like Peacocke...etc. Last night I was reading about sheperding and the complaint was that questioning your sheperd was tantamount to questioning God. I and my friends did not have official sheperds but the over all feel of the ministry was questioning leadership (in a critical way) was the same as questioning God. You just knew, you did'nt have to be told that. Maybe I got that sense through osmosis and Firm Foundations I don't know. Sometimes sheperding people would meet us and not consider us sheperding. I remember once at my church some guy came and visited as a guest speaker and it was almost like he was apologizing for sheperding, saying stuff like you may not need accountability but I need it. I remember thinking to myself, guy were more like you then you think, you do'nt know who your talking to LOL. I do remember in the mid eighties making several little church field trips to listen to Dennis Peacocke or churches affiliated with him. So top elements in MCM were sympathetic to these guys. Dennis is an entertaining speaker by the way. I quess Derek Prince officially left sheperding in 83 but he was so low key in his presentation I never associated him with sheperding. It sounds like he preached in 84 or 85 according to Copper but I don't remember him that is how low key he was, to me anyway. Only the foggiest of recollections. | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Dustie if I fly into Nashville on one of the trips to see my family, I would love to get together for a cup of coffee. I also like nothing more than getting together with a few good girlfriends. In regards to a women's retreat . . . hmmmm . . . it is a toss up as to whether I would rather go to a women's retreat, or have my fingernails and toenails slowly pulled out one by one. The women's retreat would probably lose!  Women's retreats have never been my cup of tea. My reaction to the idea is reminiscent of my initial reaction when I was first invited to live in the women's staff house . . . "Run Forest run!" Of course I did have that phase of temporary insanity  and ended up moving in . . . I seem destined to learn many lessons in life the hard way, LOL | ||
| dust Member Username: dust Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
JIA I was talking about you, me and Uly having a time together to discuss the questions you posed and to pray. This has nothing to do with retreats I experienced at EN, which weren't really "retreats" or encouraging or a place for discussion or ministry. I always felt "FLATTENED" on the drive home. So if that's what you were thinking, I understand. | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Gotcha Dustie, just some humor there!  | ||
| wordworks2001 New member Username: wordworks2001 Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 68.58.127.165 |
I am the author of {i}The Ghosts of November: Memoirs of an Outsider Who Witnessed the Carnage at Jonestown, Guyana.{/i} My name is Jeff Brailey. Please google the title or my name to check my bona fides. I would like to interview former and current members of cults or alternative religions for a book I am writing. I have been writing about alternative religions for about 30 years. I approach each group I write about with an objective and open mind. I have written about the House of Yahweh, a religion based in Abilene, Texas that was billed as the "deadliest doomsday cult in America" and after living with the group for about a week, wrote an article refuting that characterization. I hope some of you who have contacts within a group will encourage them to speak with me. My email address is wordworks2001@yahoo.com and my blog is http://novemberghosts.blogspot.com | ||
| ulyankee Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
dust and JIA, having the opportunity to get together with you would be so beyond cool. Though given a choice between a retreat and getting my nails pulled out one by one I'll choose neither one, thanks. (Message edited by ulyankee on June 22, 2007) | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Bongo Java, I'm all for it! | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Okay Uly, what happened to the Bongo Java? What am I missing here? Did you change your mind about that place, or am I imagining you posted it? LOL Is that a place like Starbucks? Never been there before. I am professed cofeeholic however. | ||
| robert_unknown Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
can someone conferm the reliabilitz of wordworks2001 i would like to come into contact with him or her | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Ah, am I missing a pun here . . . I do admit to being Bongo but also have my moments of sanity | ||
| dust Member Username: dust Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Bonga Java is cool. Oh my gosh, I had no idea that the word "retreat" would stir it up so much. Okay, sratching that word from my vocabulary. | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
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| ulyankee Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Oh, no, Bongo Java is totally fine--that was one of my favorite places back when I lived in Nashvegas. Just didn't want to bias anyone else if they preferred S'bucks or anywhere else. Bongo Java was wayyy cooler though before they put up a sign, though at the time I really didn't understand and thought it a bit strange that they didn't have a sign. | ||
| ulyankee Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
wordwerks2001 is a "he" and appears to be a NRM writer/researcher. He apparently was at Jonestown during the military clean up operation after Jim Jones's followers literally drank the Kool-Aid, and has just written a book about it. | ||
| jesusisawesome Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Uly I am fickle when it comes to coffee, I love them all! Well, except for the black gunk that they serve up at work that sits in these plastic urns all day . . . ugghhh . . . bletch! |
