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     wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
The following will take many posts over several days. I have been mulling this posting over for many weeks, but have been meditating on the contents of it for many years. I have taught on it several times. The postings of the last several weeks have stirred me to put down in writing what has been ruminating within. As the title of the post states, this post will be the about truth, lies, deceptions and integrity. Let’s start with the incidence of Aaron and the golden calf. Exodus 32:1-6 1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. 3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD. 6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. Exodus 32:21-24 21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them? 22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief. 23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf. Let look at Aaron’s response to Moses. First off he states that the people “are set on mischief.” This is a true statement. His next statement is also truthful (verse 23). It is the last statement that is important. On its surface what he states is true, but a closer examination shows that there are problems with it. “Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off.” is true and accurate. “So they gave it me,” is still true and accurate. “then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.” True on its surface, but…. The gold was cast into the fire (most likely melted in a vessel) and the end product was a golden calf. What is missing is part of verse 4, “fashioned it with a graving tool.” That portion of what happened was left out when Aaron told Moses. It isn’t that Aaron ‘lied’, it is that he neglected to tell the entire truth. He only told what was ‘necessary’, but not that portion that was ‘damaging’ to him. Aaron basically said, “I threw in the gold and voila, out came this calf, all by itself.” His response was purposefully misleading to make Moses believe something other than the real truth (that he had a very active role in the manner) and so as to cover his backside. He wanted Moses to believe that he had little, if any, responsibility for the golden calf. He wanted Moses to believe a lie. Aaron had ‘truth’, but used the truth in a deceptive manner, thus he lacked integrity. Therefore, he turned the truth into a lie. Next post will be about Saul and the Amalekites. And yes, I am going somewhere with this. | ||
| missionary_lady Junior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.9.91 |
ok...we are reading | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
I hadn't planned on the next installment coming out until Saturday evening, but my softball game was scheduled two hours later than I was told, so, I have a couple hours on my hands to kill. 1 Samuel 15 (various verses) 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. 7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. 8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly. 13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. 14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. 19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? 20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. 24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. ...to be continued... | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
...continued from above... Here again we have an episode and the subsequent reporting of the event. When Saul first meets Samuel after the battle, Saul states that he has “performed the commandment of the LORD.” In Saul’s why of thinking, he had ‘performed’ the task. He hadn’t fulfilled it though. He tried to twist Samuel’s perception of what he had done. He wanted Samuel to think that ‘performed’ meant ‘fulfilled.’ When questioned by Samuel about the animals spared, Saul responded, “They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.” Yes, the people had spared the animals, but Saul left out the fact that he was a party to it. Saul didn’t lie, but he omitted some of the facts in the hope that Samuel wouldn’t group him in among the guilty. Saul was being deceptive. In verse 20, he tries again to distance himself from the decision to spare the animals, by stating, “Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me….” Contrast this to the commandment given him in verse 3. He doesn’t respond to the charge of he himself sparing the animals. (Note: passing the buck onto the ‘people’ didn’t answer the charge.) He again passes the blame onto the ‘people’ in the next verse. It isn’t until Samuel presses him again that Saul admits any guilt. And even this isn’t sincere as he then asks Samuel to honor him in front of the people, not once, but twice. Saul, like Aaron had ‘truth’, but used the truth in a deceptive manner, thus he lacked integrity. Therefore, he also turned the truth into a lie. The third installment is Abraham and Sarah. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Here is the next installment. Genesis 20 (Various verses) 1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. 2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. 4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother. In Abraham’s eyes, in order to protect himself (what Abraham thought he had to do), Abraham (verse 2) and Sarah (verse 13) conspired together, not to outright lie, but to tell a portion of the truth. Sarah was indeed Abraham’s sister, but she was also his wife. Abraham wanted Abimelech to believe something that wasn’t true, that Sarah was an unmarried woman. Abraham, like those illustrated in the previous posts, made the truth into a lie. God miraculously protected Abimelech from sinning. Abimelech noted (in verse 9) the grave consequences that Abraham’s lack of integrity almost caused. It could have destroyed his kingdom. The final segment will be about King David. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
This section will be divided into two separate posts, the second of which won't be out until tomorrow. 2 Samuel 12:1-13 1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: 3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. 4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. 5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: 6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. 7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. In contrast to the previous examples, when confronted by his sin, David didn’t tell a partial truth, nor did he attempt to deceive, instead, he had the integrity to simply say, “I have sinned against the LORD.” No hedging, no shifting the blame to another, no dragging the truth out bit by bit. | ||
| missionary_lady Junior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.114.124 |
May I copy this Bible study and use it? | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Another example of David 2 Samuel 24 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people. 3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing? 4 Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel. 9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men. 10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. David did what God had specifically commanded him not do to; he numbered the people. When the number was brought to him (verses 9 and 10) it bothered David and he confessed, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.” He didn’t wait until somebody brought it up, he brought it up himself. He didn’t try to pass the buck off on Joab, but saying something like, “But, Joab numbered the people.” While this would have been true, it would have been deception. It would be trying to get somebody to believe something other than the truth. David chose the way of integrity. One final post after this, then into it’s application. Side note: missionary lady, you are free to use any contents that you find in my postings. However, unless the Holy Spirit quickens it within you, even if the contents might be true and accurate, it will not benefit the hearer. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. When we answer, our response should be simple and direct. A yes should mean yes, and a no, a no. There shouldn’t be shades of truth wrapped up in the answer. The answer should not be deceiving in any way. Both of the verses above show that no good becomes of deceitful answers. It is human nature to response so as to cover our backside; it is not godly nature. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
As stated in my last post our human nature wants to cover our backsides, it is only the godly nature within us that allows us to have the integrity to speak the truth no matter the consequences. David accepted the consequences, Saul tried to weasel out of them. Many claims and counterclaims have been made here on FACTNet. Each has its varying amount of truth to them. Some are done in order to purposefully deceive, to make you believe something that isn’t quite the ‘real truth’. Many of these I won’t even begin to make a comment on, since I don’t have first hand knowledge, let along any hand knowledge, of. I will try to stick to those areas that I have personal knowledge of. The next post will be about the Kelly Blake incidence in Arizona. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Kelly Blake First off, I do not know what or even if anybody associated with Homestead Heritage ever ministered to her. I don’t care. As far as this thread is concerned, it doesn’t make any difference. I will restrict my comments to first hand knowledge only. A group (I believe it was men only) meeting was held. Homestead Heritage leaders stated that the entire fellowship in Arizona had been disassociated. The reason given was that there was a situation and that we needed to protect the body of Christ. If a reporter or anybody asked if Homestead Heritage was or had ever been associated with a group in Arizona, we were to say, "No." The fellowship in Arizona had been assisting in the Thanksgiving fairs in Waco, elders from that fellowship came and stayed in Waco for training, and elders from Waco went to Arizona to teach. There was an active, vibrant relationship between the two fellowships. The Arizona fellowship was a part of Homestead Heritage (or whatever the name was at that time.) To say that there was no association between the two groups would seem like an outright lie. However, let’s examine why it wasn’t considered a ‘lie’. In the Homestead Constitution, it is stated that if anybody ever leaves or is disassociated, then it was just as if they were never a part ( I would ask that if anybody has that particular passage to please post it). Reference is then made to the Bible passage of a dog returning to its vomit. Therefore, because the Arizona fellowship was disassociated, it could be stated that they were never a part of Homestead Heritage. Hence, you wouldn’t really be 'lying' about it. However, as outlined in the passages I quoted in previous posts, this explanation appears to be nothing more then an attempt to deceive. It lacks integrity. Note about the constitution. I asked about its existence. I was told did not exist, then later I was told that it had existed, but was abandoned years before. However, adherence to the constitution was still mentioned in the Land Contract documents. When time permits, I will next address births and midwives. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Births and midwives Just a brief post before going to work. After starting out with Homestead Heritage midwives, if the mother goes to another source for prenatal care, and is asked by the new caregiver (whether doctor or midwife) about previous prenatal care, the expectant parents will state that they haven’t received any. The reason that is given for this deception is to protect the midwives from legal action. The justification that the midwives give is the following scripture: 1 Samuel 21: 10 And David arose and fled that day for fear of Saul, and went to Achish the king of Gath. 11 And the servants of Achish said unto him, Is not this David the king of the land? did they not sing one to another of him in dances, saying, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands? 12 And David laid up these words in his heart, and was sore afraid of Achish the king of Gath. 13 And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard. 14 Then said Achish unto his servants, Lo, ye see the man is mad: wherefore then have ye brought him to me? 15 Have I need of mad men, that ye have brought this fellow to play the mad man in my presence? shall this fellow come into my house? Since David was less than honest in order to protect himself, it is acceptable (required) for expectant parents to protect the midwives in a similar fashion: by being less than honest. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
It has been awhile since I've written, I've been busy with family, work and a stomach bug (early Father's Day present from my daughter.) I will attempt to pick up where I left off. Outside literature: The question has been brought up about Homestead Heritage member being allowed to read outside literature. Some ex-members have stated that members aren’t allowed to read outside literature. I was never told that I couldn’t read outside literature and I directly asked my group leader that exact question, “Are we allowed to read outside literature?” The response I got (and this is verbatim), “Would you want somebody else husbanding your wife?” No! Of course I wouldn’t, who would. But, you will notice that the original question, “Are we allowed to read outside literature?”, is never answered. You assume that the answer to the original question is, “No,” since the answer to the responding question is, “No.” | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
From the sidebar in the Waco Tribune-Herald: Claim: The group told a member who was mowing church grounds to put away his mechanized mower and pull out the hand version because a journalist was coming. Response: The church has used a hand mower to landscape the yard in front of its visitor center. But that is because the turf was new and required a reel mower. The church once had a mechanized reel mower, but it broke, so members went back to a hand-operated one. It had nothing to do with putting on appearances for visitors. From reading the response, I still don’t know if the incidence happened or not. The response leaves you with the impression that it didn’t, but it is never stated. The last sentence, “It had nothing to do with putting on appearances for visitors,” could very easily refer to using the hand mower after the mechanized one broke, and not the specific incidence in question. If it didn’t happen, why isn’t the response a plain and simple, “No, this never happened.” You can explain about the mechanized, hand, broken and any other mowers afterward. The answer in this example, and the previous example, show a type of deception in which the reader, or listener, assumes what the answer is, without it every being directly stated. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
This entry will be another first hand account. During the construction of the sanctuary on the church property in Chalk Bluff, members worked many nights until midnight, 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM or later. Many of these nights were consecutive. This construction lasted for several months. Towards the end of the construction, I had a dream. In the dream a voice stated that, the people are going to continue to be worked so hard, until somebody dies. I don’t remember the exact wording, but it was condemnation, not a statement of fact. I told my wife about the dream. I didn’t share the dream with anybody else at first. I didn’t share it with my group leader at the time, because it was a dream that went against the vision of Blair Adams, and that was something that you didn’t do. Several days later, I was talking with my group leader. He mentioned that a brother from Austin had died. I looked at him in disbelief and told him about the dream I had. I asked him how he died. He said that he didn’t have the details. I asked him if he had been working long hours for months on the sanctuary. He replied that he would get back to me with the details. The next day or the day after, he brought me this response, “The brothers (elders) just want you to know that it was the cool of the morning, and bother ‘X’ had just sat down before work when he died.” My response was, okay, but had he been working long hours for months. The next time I met with my group leader, he responded, “I talked to the brothers again, and they want you to know that it was the cool of the morning, and brother ‘X’ had just sat down before starting work when he died.” My response was, “That was not the question that I asked.” Then I restated my question again. The third time I talked to my group leader, he brought back the same answer. I responded more forcefully, that that was not the question that I asked. I realized that the elders were only going to answer in a way to make me think that he hadn’t been working long hours. They didn’t have the integrity to answer honestly. A little later another brother came to me and told me the details of the man’s death. (This was something that he shouldn’t have done. He hadn’t gotten permission to tell me.) He had died of a heart attack. He had just sat down just before starting work. This was after getting to work early to load up a truck of woodwork to ship up to the sanctuary. This followed months of making the woodwork, working long hours night after night for several months. The dream was true. I have since repented for not saying anything. I may have been able to save his life. | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Wow! It's real evident from the pro-HH supporters here that they will not plainly answer questions, or even answer them at all. It's like how they look at the Bible. They can't see plain Scripture, they have to have it interpreted for them (just like Catholicism). | ||
| yeoman New member Username: yeoman Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 4.230.135.236 |
Dear Prax, I am corresponding on this thread because I want to bring it to your attention in case you missed it previously. WAAS observations and experiences brought it all rushing back like a flood. More on it all later possibly, but could you offer any opinions on his first hand account? As far as my absense from posting; an explanation. Several months ago I was confronted by a loved one (HH member) about my posting here. It was interesting because we only saw them every few months and they do not even have internet, let alone the IT capability to crack who is who on this site. Only one other person knew of my posting and they never told. How did the beloved HH member know? Any way, I refrained from posting all this time out of respect for their wishes. However after 3+ months of absolute, total shunning by them I have nothing left to lose. I appreciate your love for the truth of who Jesus is and your desire to see the best in every situation. It's a gift we could all use more of. But there are some actions that cannot be condoned or disregarded. Just for the record, I did not leave HH by my own choice, I was dis-fellowshipped after many, many years of absolute fealty to "the Vision". Even after the "divorce", I professed my loyalty to them in word and deed. Only after Jesus began to pry my eyes open and the wrecking bar of reality smashed the "Glass House" did I begin to awaken. I know now it was absolutely the will of God for my life. I realize that most likely nothing I or any one else says here will change your mind about HH. I think too often that has been the conscious and unconscious goal of some. But I don't think it necessarily should be. What I received that was good was enlightenment and encouragement at times, amusement and chagrin at times, sorrow and anger at times. For the most part, it has all helped in healing although I still have a long way to go. I read the Waco Trib article and the spin and bombast from HH took my breath away. It was an opportunity for them to humble themselves in a measure but they missed it. So very sad. I truly hope that all the prayers for them will someday be answered and Jesus will again be glorified in their midst. I love you Prax and pray His very best for you and yours. Yeoman | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
I don’t get time to post much. Work and family keep me busy. Another first hand observation. During a Sunday meeting, Blair Adams was teaching from the literature. He was going over the writings of Kant and Jung. He was becoming visibly upset as he went on because nobody seemed to understand what he was talking about. He ranted and raved about our attitude towards the literature, that we didn’t care about it and hadn’t been reading it. Yes, ranted and raved is an appropriate assessment, as he yelled, screamed, stomped his feet and pounded the podium. This went on for some time (at least 20 minutes), and if my memory serves me correctly, it ended the meeting. Now, it can be argued that it was just righteous anger, as I’ve seen other preachers do much the same when preaching. However, he wasn’t railing against sin, he was deriding us for not reading this particular piece of his literature. I left the meeting feeling like a whipped puppy. In this meeting were the “plurality of elders”, group leaders and all the Sunday status people. Everybody was included in this rebuke. And since it was coming from “Jesus still coming to you in the flesh” we all accepted it as the word of God. None of the “plurality of elders”, group leaders or men or women of the congregation questioned him. I have no problem being rebuked by those in authority over me when I deserve it. It is part of their function. My problem with this particular episode is that the literature being taught from hadn’t been distributed to the congregation. I’m pretty sure that the group leaders hadn’t even seen it. We were all being rebuked for not reading something that we never had. Yet, nobody had the courage to stand up and tell Blair Adams that very important point. Furthermore, there was never an apology. | ||
| exparte New member Username: exparte Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 69.37.18.46 |
I have read most of what you have written and find you not only have a good cause but are basing it on true facts and observations and backup evidense by former members.Usually accusations like yours are based on what the individual wants to do and not on much or any facts.Keep writing what your cause is I will be coming back to read it again. | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Yeoman, Greetings. Generally I don't give a big comment about accounts that I do not have a fairly full picture. And a lot depends on who is the speaker, as well. When FH continues to deceive the forum about one of the most critical accusations, I speak up clearly because I know the ins and outs and exactly where she is sickly omitting, twisting and lying in order to terribly accuse. When Mrs. Alvear went on 50 times about one piece of her offense, I simply asked if she had even asked HH about it at all. She had not, and rarely brings it up today. Although she is in some ways a much sicker place today, casually accusing of murder in the recent threads. The woman is in a very difficult place, blinded by her hardness and darkness towards HH. It is sad that she sees herself as some sort of counselor or something, trying to organize whatever posse and opposition she can against HH. When 'Truth_Hunter' talked about going on the land only seeking to give gifts unto men and being treated less cordially than he hoped, I thought it was pretty easy to read his motives between the lines and commented in that direction. I know that I experienced many incredible meetings that I could easily relate in more than one way to the listener, even going back to when I went to 14th Street in Manhattan and would stand outside the door and was nervous and scared - sensing the power of God that sought to deal with my rebellion and transgression. Many things could be related in at least three different matters, incredulity at the power and mercy of God, heart-depth-questioning about this and that, and accusation. The trick of the oppos is to twist everything to the third. So most first-person conversations "they mistreated me so bad there.." I will simply note, glance or read en passant and move on by. I believe that I can discern reasonably well the filtered version from the reality. Much of the stuff is perception and the fallback to self-justification. You are always welcome to chat more in private. From memory I have always appreciated your posts here, as one who is trying to avoid the oppo pitfalls even while at some distance from HH. I hope this helps with your question above  . Thanks for your fine wishes and salutation. May the Lord Jesus encourage you and bring forth the touch of His Spirit, strength, consolation and truth. With warmth, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Dear Prax: I have gotten a lot out of your postings here, but I do have a question for you. I am grateful that you have had a positive experience with HH; I appreciate your honesty about in sharing what you agree with about HH as well as the areas where you have not agreed. However, just because your experience has been positive, why do you call the many others who have had a different experience liars? This accusation discredits thier experience, and it is unfair to them and what they have been through. One of the things that I have appreciated in this discussion is the divergent experiences that are shared openly. This variation of experience offers me, the "outsider", a good overview of the differing perspectives. I don't think any of you are liars, but have had widely varying experiences with these folks that cannot but help to shape your opinions. A different experience does not make the other story untrue. Please do not continue to call the others liars; it's wrong. ASOY | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Dear Prax: By the way, I also have a VERY long history with these folks, also going back to the lower east side. The "good old days" were not that good, and these concerns about the authority and coercion were voiced by many even way back then. I acknowledge that many good things were done back then, as they still are to this day by many people in this church. However, I have many experiences and documentation that tell of ongoing concerns. While this board is relatively new, the concerns are not. Some have said that the creation of this board has incited those who have left to complain (where they had not done so prior). This is not true, and there have been many years of voiced and public concerns a long time before this forum was started. asoy | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I talked for hours and hours and days and days to HH...all I got was lies, beating around the bush about things. I wasted and our family wasted our time at HH...in the mist of many good things the bad tipped the scales. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I talked for hours and hours and days and days to HH...all I got was lies, beating around the bush about things. I wasted and our family wasted our time at HH...in the mist of many good things the bad tipped the scales. | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Asoy, Greetings. Asoy, generally I do not call the oppos liars, although you walked into a special situation. For the most part the oppos 'believe' what they are saying is the real picture. And I generally seek to reserve 'liars' for conscious and deliberate falsehoods even though the dictionary definition can be much looser. There have been a couple of exceptions. The terrible one recently has been FH, she told a huge untruth over a long period of time and even when it was corrected privately and months go by she still wants to leave the untruth out there. The is an abomination. Where what might have originally been, charitably, more ignorance and carelessness and animus combined is now converted to a terrible lie. And then another woman, close to FH, blithely accuses of murder, and not one oppo objects. These types of accusations are proof positive that these women are both out of control and quite spiritually sick. By contrast, a few in opposition I even thank for a moderate and sensitive tone. One I appreciated the most, with a difficult history with HH, left the forum, and now the masks are off. Even when I first came on this forum I was gently chastising a couple of posters who were defending HH precisely for using the term liars too easily. So I do understand your concern. Over time I realize that sometimes, like with the terrible accusation from FH, lying is almost a gentle way of describing the depravity of the deception being propagated. There is a point that you make where I agree, albeit from a different angle and I have often stated it here. The fellowship is walking in the same path and vision and dedication and patterns as in the earlier days. The folks who become a part know very well that they are involved in a special way, that lives are poured out, that this is not 'playing church' or listening to a couple of sermons. The issues of holiness and dedication are always in the forefront, a community in service before God and one to another. The idea of a major conceptual change is a factnet oppo myth. There is an "I'm ok, your ok" mentality that the board helps promote. For many it is no longer an issue of striving to be placed by God in fellowship and community, it is more simply "ok, you will join me in ragging HH, you are my friend". In that sense the Factnet stuff has hurt a number of folks, giving a false sense that a flimsy facade of 'most anything goes Christendom' is sufficient. For that reason I am glad that I don't see many of my friends (former HH) on the forum, I would rather have contact with them in a more sanctified land. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.21.36 |
Dear Prax: I believe that most of these people are very sincere in their desire to walk and serve God, and many of the things they do reflect that desire (although I am certianly not to judge sincere or not, but it appears). But the authority practices hav been questionable for many years. asoy | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.9.88.177 |
Hello Sis, I to think that most of the posters on here are sincere, (on both sides of the issues). A person can be wrong and be sincerely wrong. Prax, lies are a matter of perspective. It is possible for FH to shate something that is true for her and you to have a completely different experience that is on the other end of the spectram and and your experience to also be true. Unlike Dowen and RT you did not cut loose with liar in the beginning and there were equally outragous claims yet you refrained from calling posters liars. It is unnecessary and you are better than that Prax. On a past issue I think HH lost credibility whan the newspaper articles came out because they missed an opportunity to accept some responcibility for mistakes that have been made. It was unfortunate. One example HW made the statement that the leadership is made up of 20 co-equal ministers that shared equal power. Though BA was the founding apostle he had and exerted no more authority than the other 19. Why not tell the truth? Why not say as the founding father he writes most of the literature and the patterns that HH goes by and he is our founding father and leader. Why not admit that mistakes have been made? How could HW say that at no time do we yell or scream when we disciplne people? Why not say some times people need to be woke up. Have you not heard of prechers yelling from the pulpit? Saying it does not happen is laughable to the hundreds who have experienced it first hand. I could go on but I am rambling. In-Season out. | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 97 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.72.123.217 |
hi in_season, "Prax, lies are a matter of perspective. It is possible for FH to share something that is true for her and you to have a completely different experience ... " Yes, I agree 100% and this is a point that I often make. Especially we have seen HH accused this way many times on this forum improperly. And that is why I only used the term 'liar' for 'ForeverHis' when she resorted to blood libel. And then would not clearly and properly retract even when corrected, first privately, then publicly. At that point she became a false accuser to such a degree that 'liar' is totally appropriate. And this was not something that was 'true for her' she admitted only having paltry second or third-hand information in making the most heinous accusation. She even defacto admitted to me that she felt justified to accuse HH of anything that happened to somebody 10-20-30 years after they left HH -- without any research, concern, mention of the individual situations in their life that could occur. I'll simply blame HH is the cold, hardened and sick oppo mentality of this woman. And this is what actually occurred, a recklessly-made heinous accusation without even have made the most cursory checking. It is one thing to say 'he yelled at me' when another person might say 'he spoken emphatically'. Is anybody lying ? It is totally another thing to base a blood libel, to accuse people of a death (or the wretched tendency of Mrs. Alvear to throw out 'murder' and 'Jim Jones') on your own sloppiness and anxiousness to accuse. Returning to the false accusation, never properly retracted, with the necessary and appropriate apologies .. the actual response was mainly a cry to defamers and gossipers to help find some 'dirt' to justify the wretched lie. In_season .. if is not a liar .. What is the proper word ? Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on August 29, 2007) (Message edited by praxaluh on August 29, 2007) | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 206 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Has HW screamed at people or not???You answer Prax...Has BA screamed out in church services? Has JS screamed out at people or not???? You tell us Prax.. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 207 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Prax says this of me: or the wretched tendency of Mrs. Alvear to throw out 'murder' and 'Jim Jones') on your own sloppiness and anxiousness to accuse Has he so soon forgotton the facts posted here...Prax whatever you say is just hot air when put beside TRUE FACTS... Not you or anyone can say anything I have said is not correct. You need to get your head OUT of the sand and see the REAL TRUTH. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 208 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
I may just be a country girl from Arkansas and a missionary on a far away shore but I heard enough and saw enough at HH to tell all to stay away from that place. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Prax’s accusations are referring to the thread at this link: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=384045#POST384045 I addressed it on the same thread at this link: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=417366#POST417366 FH | ||
| praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.72.123.217 |
Hi Folks, You may note that 'ForeverHis' in 'addressing' has never retracted the blood libel, nor did she apologize to the forum, or, much more appropriately, to HH. Sincerely and deeply would be proper. Nor did she acknowledge her impropriety (the lightest word that can be found) of making terrible accusations in a blind in-the-dark manner. This woman simply acknowledged that she really had no idea about what she had spoken - and asked all the others (especially a call to gossipers and defamers) to try to help her by finding some history or evidence post-facto; in order to help shore up her blood libel accusation, to try to keep in on some sort of lukewarm burner. in_season and others, please understand that even 'liar' is not a strong enough word for her actions in this matter .. This goes way beyond the issue of speaking an untruth. And 'liar' itself is a word that I rarely use in any place, private or public, including public discussions. When words involve terrible irresponsible accusations and defamation there is no way to put a nice cover upon the one speaking in spiritual sickness and integrity darkness. The mask is off, truth is revealed, and it is not pretty. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
It would be easier to know the truth if: 1. They weren't shrouded in secrecy. 2. If Homestead Heritage ever admitted to anything other than perfection. 3. There wasn't this total obsession with some little church outfit, as though IT/THE SOD and BUILDINGS weren't worthy of being a shrine, not unlike Our Lady of Fatima, etc. It's all about that place, and that is kinda warped, don't ya think? | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.115.221 |
Prax, I do understand what you are saying. There are some things that can be a difference of opinion or a different way of looking at it. Consider the following, I use initials and such so you will know what I am saying yet not many others will know. FH spoke of the tragic events where DS K her children and then K herself. M&D were some of the earlist members and met and married in the group. RA personally tried to help DS. There is no doubt that B&RA and whole church were devastated by the event as they truly loved this couple. I do not know that any blaim for the event could be laid at the feet of HH but the event is real it did happen. Now with K it has repeted itself, (with K FH knew personally). These two tragedies did occur. So, the question is, is FH lying because she brings them to the forfront or because she indicates that HH should accept the association and some responcibility. Should Emmaus / HH be begging God to find out if indeed they could have done something differently? In their defense no doubt there was much of that going on behind the scenes. In public HH did totally distance themselves from the K situation leaving many people out to dry and feeling completely abandoned by the people they thought they were in covenant with. I am not trying to be glib, just wondering if it is the tragic events themselves or as you indicated FH did not know enough about DS in particular to speak of it. Is the fact that these events were of actual physical death and not just a drawn out spiritual devastation that often leads to spiritual death? The other two items I mentioned. There is no question, none, nada, that one could confuse yelling and screaming used in discipline in HH to "he spoke emphactically". I am not even saying that I have not yelled and screamed to those closest to me. I would not be able to say like HH "at no time do we yell and scream" (in disciplining). Is HW statement a lie?. Same with the question of BA being on the same level as the other 19 ministers. If you asked a thousand former or present members does BA have and or exert the same athority as the other Elders / Ministers I do believe that 999 would say an emphatic yes, with the apparent exception being HW to the Waco paper who would contradict the other 999 and say no. Is that a lie? Ironically, many great churches have a very demonstrative leader and founder at the top. One such leader just passed away recently in Jerry Falwell. He was the leader, pastor and founder. He did not apoligize or pretend he was just one on a board that could over ride him. Everyone seemed happy with the arrangement. I believe I read his son is taking over the mantel of leadership. Of course another way to justify that answer is to say after almost thirty years and hundreds of "ministers meetings" there just has never been an occasion or incident where BA has been wrong so therefore not a need for the other ministers to disagree. In Season out. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 209 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Prax do you affirm or deny that Physical Torture, YES LITERALLY, TORTURE, takes place at HH? Do you affirm or deny children have beaten with hundreds of strokes until blood ran down the legs, and they fainted. Do you affirm or deny children have been required to go without proper nourishment, for periods of time? Do you affirm or deny that no screaming takes place at HH...I mean elders screaming at people, belittling them? Have more questions for you...but let us here Your answers... | ||
| dowen Member Username: dowen Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 215 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
truth bothers you... Daniel, you tell us it it true that at a dead boys funeral HH told about the boy´s sex life? and you tell us if HW lies saying they do not scream at people and by the way tell us if HW lied about the Crows being rebaptized? No, use in quoting scriptures if they don´t apply we can paste the whole Bible if we want to but if HH does not repent then they continue WRONG.You don´t even have to have the Bible to know that! | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 216 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Í haven´t murdered anyone Daniel...Has HH??????????????????????????????????????? | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.72.123.217 |
Hi in_season, Greetings. It is much finer to see a post from someone who is not consumed in bitterness and self-justifcation. Let me try to respond to your post. > I use initials and such so you will know what > I am saying yet not many others will know. Understood. > There is no doubt .. whole church were > devastated by the event as they truly loved this > couple. Amen. Thank you, Lord Jesus. True of every brother and sister, elders, people who know them well, and even those who only shared a bit. > I do not know that any blaim for the event could > be laid at the feet of HH Agreed. > the event is real it did happen. Yes. And a deep tragedy that needs politicization less than anything. > Now with K it has repeted itself, > (with K FH knew personally). Yes. And although my persective and understanding on that is different than the oppo view expressed here, since F_H knew the woman I would leave most any discussions to private and give F_H space to share her heart. > .. the question is, is FH lying because she > brings them to the forfront The terrible untruth was her desire and quickness to blame HH by using a total falsehood that she apparently had been fed, or that she herself created, garbled up in her own anxiousness to accuse. She did not even have the most basic fact right. Overall, the manner in which she writes is questionable (as you should understand by your own proper distance from 'assigning blame'), the untruth was very specific and she still has never even apologized to HH for speaking a defamatory falsehood. > or because she indicates that HH should accept > the association and some responcibility. Should > Emmaus / HH be begging God to find out if indeed > they could have done something differently? First, I am in no position to say that HH have not earnestly and deeply sought God on these matters ; or on any other difficult situations. None whatsoever. From my limited understanding and perspective, I remember usual situations (involving people who left) where exactly that was done. May God grant all the churches and fellowships and communities the desire and wisdom to seek God in examination. The need is so great. So I am in no position to make a railing accusation. Hopefully you are not, as well. Beyond that you are also mixing in a public issue here, the depth of public 'connection' in one situation, maybe equating with 'responsibility'. If you feel it really is of import, I would prefer to discuss that privately. > In their defense no doubt there was much of that > going on behind the scenes. Thank you. I am responding while reading, so I appreciate that you understand this as well. In public HH did totally distance themselves from the K situation leaving many people out to dry and feeling completely abandoned by the people they thought they were in covenant with. in_season, I respect your concern on this aspect. I will be happy to share with you my sense and understanding, however I believe we would do better privately on this, as mentioned above. I am not trying to be glib Which I see and respect. It is a breath of fresh air to see a post from someone who clearly is seeking to find and maintain a Godly perspective. (continues) | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.72.123.217 |
just wondering if it is the tragic events themselves or as you indicated FH did not know enough about DS in particular to speak of it. Is the fact that these events were of actual physical death and not just a drawn out spiritual devastation that often leads to spiritual death? This is a bit too nuanced for me, and I believe that I have answered above, so you might want to try this one again, and maybe privately is better. The other two items I mentioned. There is no question, none, nada, that one could confuse yelling and screaming used in discipline in HH to "he spoke emphactically". I am not even saying that I have not yelled and screamed to those closest to me. I would not be able to say like HH "at no time do we yell and scream" (in disciplining). Is HW statement a lie?. Personally, I rarely would accuse any such statement by anybody of that nature, HH or oppo or Clem Kiddlehopper, of being a 'lie'. So much is in nuance and context and perspective. Same with the question of BA being on the same level as the other 19 ministers...." Same basic response as above. If I really felt a concern that this was not accurate and some sort of deliberate disinformation I would first write to the speaker and ask for context, history perspective. Please understand that it is quite low on my priority list, however I will not berate anybody for bringing it up here. Ironically, many great churches have a very demonstrative leader and founder at the top. One such leader just passed away recently in Jerry Falwell. ... I believe I read his son is taking over the mantel of leadership. Of course another way to justify that answer is to say after almost thirty years and hundreds of "ministers meetings" there just has never been an occasion or incident where BA has been wrong so therefore not a need for the other ministers to disagree. Thank you for your thoughts. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.115.221 |
Prax, Thanks for your response. One correction IS not MS, I do not know why I got that wrong. Enough said regarding those tragic events that will bring no back nor make anyone feel better to spread blame. In FH defense I sense in her the incredibly scary thought that such thoughts were going through her head as must have gone through K and DS. That would scare any mom. Perhaps she went off without all the facts in front of her, but there is reason to be concerned and in prayer that this kind of thing does not happen in HH or any place else. The other two items are simply puzzling to me. My reason to bring them up is to reason why leadership would deny daily practices that not even arguable to anyone who has been in and around HH. Why not just say this is the way we do it and not worry what any else thinks? In Season out. | ||
| h75 Junior Member Username: h75 Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
They deny due to fear. Fear of being censured for actions and beliefs. It is very important to them to have a palatable front to keep the tourist money rolling in. | ||
| h75 Junior Member Username: h75 Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
I and my family was a part of HH for years and years. Prax can argue for them but I lived it, saw it, promoted it, defended it, believed it, and finally ran from it. I write from vast experience. Bitter. Somewhat. Most who leave are. But to twist the truth as Prax has done. Nope. No need. They shoot themselves in the foot every day. I have contacts still in there. They don’t want to leave the wife and kids so they stick around. Poor souls. | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 218 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
In Season You could never imagine the fear... |
