| Author | Message | ||
     bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.218.219 |
I was going to do a book/article about Andrew Wommack and he was interested in the idea. I got a call from one of his representatives and I said, "For years, Andrew has told these amazing stories and the idea that his son was raised from the dead -- that must have been front-page news and I want to get the documentation for that." Well, the fellow admitted there IS NONE. There was no death certificate. Andrew's son had overdosed and the "doctor pronounced him dead, put him in the hospital morgue and put a toe-tag on him." The rest of the story is how Andrew says---he and his wife Jamie went to the hospital and prayed for their son who "rose off the table and came back from the dead." Hmmmm. The fellow on the phone said that the doctors won't be interviewed because they don't want to be portrayed as wrongly calling someone dead who wasn't dead (in their eyes) or having to admit someone was raised from the dead. Overall, very sad and I wonder how many other "miracles"are really "misunderstandings." Comments? | ||
| dgate007 New member Username: dgate007 Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.254.214.25 |
Hey Bach: These kinds of stories are very hard to prove but it may have happened. Andrew has a good reputation. In 1989, I dropped dead in front of the fireplace after being up for 4 days on a cocaine binge. I worked thru the Medellian drug cartel in California as a drug dealer in Michigan and at the age of 30 my body just gave out. I experienced momentary torment beyond description and then found myself somehow in my body and standing up. For the next 2 and 1/2 hours I was in the Glory of God. No, not in Heaven but in my home. It is beyond description. I was totally sober and God took me into revelation, visions and spoke to me on a variety of topics. I can not prove one bit of this but...look who gave his heart to Jesus and is still serving him 18 years later. David | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.218.219 |
I'm a supporter of Andrew and don't believe he is "lying" but was VERY disappointed that the story doesn't really hold up upon close examination. I worked in the health care field and if someone is "dead" they are pronounced dead at a certain time and the doctor signs that off and THEN the body is taken away. That's a law in every state. No one is just shuttled off to the hospital morgue without proper paperwork. And they are NEVER toe-tagged without the paperwork--that toe-tag is for the funneral home to double check the identity of the person. I take nothing away from your personal story, David but if you claimed to have raised someone from the dead--in a modern day hospital!--and you tell that story many, many, many times...then I would expect there to be a doctor/doctors, nurses and staff administrator to say, "We don't understand it, but it happened." Oh well. Obviously, no article/book to be written! | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
I would think that if a person had been declared dead by a doctor in a hospital, there would be some evidence to support it. Isn't it against the law for doctors to change a patient's charts/records? If so, wouldn't there have to be some notation on a patient's chart that they had been declared dead, even if it turned out not to be the case? This is just an opinion, but I have heard a lot of Wommacks stories and I get the feeling sometimes that he likes to exaggerate to make a point. I hope I'm wrong. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.251.11 |
I agree, Marta -- declaring someone "dead" is serious and that's why I was so concerned over the conversation I had on the phone. His answer was that, "Of course, the doctor's won't say he was dead because they would look foolish." So I said, "Okay, but who are the doctors so I can find out what DID happen?" If the son was taken to the morgue (and now I say IF) then I know where would be a paper trail. But the spokesperson said they (the docs) won't talk about it. I wonder the same things when ministers claim, "So and so was healed of AIDS and CANCER, etc." To me, if ANYONE has been 100% healed of AIDS -- or cancer, or raised from the dead! -- then it WOULD be front page news! But as I posted, the closer to get to the facts, the fuzzier they become. This "revelation" doesn't take anything away from my appreciation for Andrew's ministry--but I also wonder why he has to keep making this statement over and over and over again if it doesn't seem to be something that can be proven. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 156.110.24.142 |
Bachman, Andrew DOES have a good reputation, and several members of my church (and good friends of mine) follow him and his teachings. In fact, the director of our prison ministry is a Wommack partner, and goes to at least one of his conferences each year. The fact there was no death certificate, Bachman, seems to be more of an issue for the doctor (who could have very well issued one), and not for Andrew Wommack. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.253.221 |
jbkrems, I agree with you re: Andrew's reputation and I know him and people in the ministry, which was why I was going to write the article. What is disturbing is that he has made this claim about his son rising from the dead for five years--a great lead for an article!--but it's not going to happen because it can't be documented. There is no death certificate because, according to the Wommack spokesperson, the doctor never issued one. So, technically and legally, Andrew's son never "died". Again, I support Andrew (financially and prayfully and I'm a partner) and they called ME about writing the article and/or a book about his life. So I wanted to begin acquiring documentation for the various "stories" but the "big one" -- the resurrection of his son -- simply doesn't exist. As a journalist, I can't just write what Andrew said without some references or primary sources, so I excused myself from the assignment. | ||
| marta Junior Member Username: marta Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.15.28.105 |
bachman, I respect your integrity. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 |
Bachman, Oh, I'm sorry --- I thought you had contacted them, and not the other way around. | ||
| grimaldi New member Username: grimaldi Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 76.173.216.41 |
Bachman...I don't know who you write for but I find I agree with your comments and outlook on ministry that you have added to this site. If you have need of something to write, an investigative expose on Tom Brock would prove interesting to MANY around the world. We may know some of the same people from the New Life House days in Thousand Oaks... | ||
| trsrinheaven New member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
The body was not logged into the morgue because Andrew gave strict orders to wait for them when they get to the hospital. He also gave those orders to his other son who was there. His son is now currently married and has made Andrew and his wife grandparents. The story is factual and true. If anyone knows Andrew then they would know he has always been LOW KEY about promoting anything. Having doctors and nurses in my immediate family hospitals often WAIT to move the body and allow family to spend time with their love one. In this case the son came back to life before the put him in the morgue. If Andrew errors it usually has been on the side of him and his ministry being a well kept secret. He doesn't promote anything much. He just promotes Gods love and grace. I know top staff and they shared the story and the amazing situation. Currently there is another low key minister in Mexico who has had over 400 eyewitness dead people raised back to life. For some documentation check out Sid Roths website who has some video on many miraculous supernatural manifestations of Gods demnstration power and love in action. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
The body was not logged into the morgue because Andrew gave strict orders to wait for them until they get to the hospital. He also gave those orders to his other son who was there. His son is now currently married and has made Andrew and his wife grandparents. The story is factual and true. If anyone knows Andrew then they would know he has always been LOW KEY about promoting anything. Having doctors and nurses in my immediate family hospitals often WAIT to move the body and allow family to spend time with their love one. In this case the son came back to life before the put him in the morgue. If Andrew errors it usually has been on the side of him and his ministry being a well kept secret. He doesn't promote anything much. He just promotes Gods love and grace. I know top staff and they shared the story and the amazing situation. Currently there is another low key minister in Mexico who has had over 400 eyewitness dead people raised back to life. For some documentation check out Sid Roths website who has some video on many miraculous supernatural manifestations of Gods demnstration power and love in action. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.233.13 |
Tris, your information is somewhat incorrect. And, with all due respect, remember I was ASKED to do the article and have the first-hand information. And I am NOT saying that what Andrew has reported is not the way it happened. I am ONLY saying that there are no records that his son died. Let me clarify a couple things: 1) The body was not logged into the morgue because Andrew gave strict orders to wait for them until they get to the hospital. INCORRECT--Andrew has ALWAYS stated that the body WAS in the morgue and it WAS toe-tagged. And so did the person at Andrew's who called me. When someone dies, there is a death certificate and time of death called. The body is toe-tagged and moved to the morgue UNLESS the family wants it left in the room. If the body is in the room, NO TOE TAG because the ID is still certain. Again, the body was in the morgue with a toe-tag because he had been moved. Andrew has ALWAYS said his son's body was toe-tagged and body was "turning black" from lack of blood circulation. 2) His son is now currently married and has made Andrew and his wife grandparents. TRUE and I saw him in Oct--but not sure of your point. We all agree he's alive! 3) He has always been LOW KEY about promoting anything. WELL...actually, as I discussed with the fellow on the phone, Andrew talks about this event (as he should) on maybe 70% of his teachings. Which is why I was going to lead with it. As we both know, I like and support Andrew--and they like and support me which is why they contacted ME to do the article, so please remember this. Again, the fellow from Andrew's ministry ADMITTED there are no documents for this story, which is why I backed away from it. Some will say, "So what? Andrew has integrity (I agree) so write the story as he said it happened." But that, to me, just isn't ethical. We serve a big, mighty and wonderful God and when He raises people from the dead, then I believe it can be simply proven -- in this day and age -- that 1) the person was "really dead" and 2) they are alive. If a hospital in Colorado in the year 2002 can't provide documents that a patient there died and was raised from the dead, then I have to question the event. | ||
| trsrinheaven Junior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
No Andrew said it was toe tagged not in the morgue. He was talking to his son on the phone as he drove into Colorado Springs from his home. He always stated he told his son not to allow them to take the body to the morgue. He did not want the body taken out of the room. Either way several people document this. Andrew and his right hand people would have no reason not to give out documentation. Andrew was upset about his child having some problems, his desire to work as a tatto artist etc., and other things prior to turning around his life. Another testimony is his son working with and running into a tatoo artist his son liked and admired and he turned out to be a Christian and counseled him. Bachman due to legalities and lible slander etc. there is much to raise doubts about you having permission to write anything about Andrew let alone a book about anyone living. Find me any hospital that document someone being raised from the dead other than a short time code emergency situation of a few minutes. They simply will not due to highly restrictive policy, insurance problems, and legal issues risking litigation and many lawsuit issues. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.155.52 |
grimaldi, I'm currently writing a book about Larry Hill's Church of the Risen Christ cult from the late 1960s/early 70s--it was home of the All Saved Freak Band. Terrible abuse but a great story of God's power to deliver. I have tracked down more than 80 (!) references and primary sources, so it's a real blessing plus the former members of the cult are excited to "come out" -- most are still believers. So the idea of doing ANOTHER book about someone (Tom Brock) like Larry Hill....well, tell me your New Life House experiences! Any names you remember? I remember a fellow Dave _____ who had blond hair (bald on top) and a beard; nice guy. And John Wales (who was a little "off") --- anyway, let me know what you know/who you know! And Tris, I'm sticking by my story--your version doesn't match what I know/was told. Also, it was the HOSPITAL morgue his son was in---I didn't mean to imply he was removed from the hospital. He was taken out of the room which meant he needed to be toe-taged for identification purposes, and then moved to the hospital morgue which is where Andrew and Jamie prayed for him. Andrew also said he was "naked on the slab and his body was black from the blood not circulating." Regardless, the important thing is that Jesus WAS raised and we shall be, too!  | ||
| grimaldi New member Username: grimaldi Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 76.173.216.41 |
Bachman...you are remembering DaveMerisko from the New Life House days. Great guy and still have contact via his friends. You may also remember DannyMiller, ByronMoline, DannyYoung. At bottom there is a link to a couple pics of those days. Scroll down to to see them (2). You'll remember Dave immediately. DannyYoung is the other. Tom B___..in brief...stories of assault and rape during New Life House days (believeable), caught 3 times for sexual misconduct while pastoring...left town numerous times to escape the heat. Now has returned to Ventura again. During time away from Ventura he started a ministry "Wave of Life" in Hawaii with an accompanying school with national known leaders as teachers. He bases it out of Ventura now- travels worldwide teaching. The school (called ESS) is based out of Wash. State somewhere. Somehow he has made his way into the circle of internationally known worship leaders and ministry leaders and counts them as friends & peers. None have a clue who the guy really is. He is ministers in Europe and all around the States. Hard to give all info here. Have confirmed via 1 on 1 with victim of a fairly recent and long adulterous relationship and, unbelievably, recent rape...all while ministering the gospel and teaching marriage seminars (his cover). Surrounds himself with bigwigs so any story against him looks ridiculous. A very bad dude. He has cut a swath through Ventura County (several women just in this county alone) leaving scores damaged and disallusioned. This is consistent behaviour for all 30 plus years of ministry..don't think he'll be stopped until someone brings legal charges against him. He is skilled at deception. I wish I could hire a detective to find all info. He's married to Suzie over 30 years, who is his enabler... the usual story. Tom has escaped exposure by playing "the victim of bad people out to get his ministry", or blaming all on satan's "attack on his ministry" or crying "don't touch God's annointed". He dances out of all trouble laying blame on all but his own actions. Nothing new in "the church" these days I guess...Ack..."As The Ministry World Turns"... Below is Tom's website. He quit updating it when he found people were trailing him and getting the truth out to the places he speaks at. More trail covering. http://www.christianmartialartist.com/personal_favorites.html - 2 pictures of old New Life House days...the man you remember is in one. www.waveoflife.com (Ministry website - a couple years outdated but you can see what he's about) http://www.stevecrosby.com/ (Tom's WOL ministry school and the man running it. I feel for this Steve Crosby guy as he has no idea who Tom really is. Known him only since Tom left Hawaii where he got himself in big time infidelity trouble. http://www.callingallnations.com/index.php?display=endorsements_main : This was a huge worship stadium event held in Berlin last summer. Tom was one of the planners and listed under endorsements. You can see from the names he has wormed his way into good company. http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/life/ A friend of this big UK Ministry. His articles are listed under the "browse articles" section. Also teaches there Despite the junk...I still love God and serve Him. | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.246.29 |
UPDATE: September 4, 2007 Just received Andrew's Sept DVD and it was a "Q&A with Jamie," his wife. 1) She twice mentions how much Kenneth Copeland's teaching helped them in their early days of learning the faith walk and they used to attend his Ft Worth meetings each month 2) She said that when their son died and they went to the hospital, when they arrived "we were told that he (their son) had come back." No mention of the toe-tag, the son "turning black" etc or the other things Andrew always says. (BTW, a corpse doesn't turn black -- the blood all gathers on the buttock and back (if you are laid out) so the BACK of the body is black, not the whole body.) Jamie also said that people ask why she always laughs at the stories Andrew tells and she said, "Because they always change!" I still support his ministry as you all know--even asked him to write an introduction to my book about the Church of the Risen Christ cult, IN A DARK PLACE -- but I would love for him to tell one single version of his son's death/resurrection! | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Andrew Wommack is a storyteller ... he embellishes his stories ... which is probably NOT a good thing when it comes to giving testimonies. | ||
| trsrinheaven Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bachman, Andrew just explained the son dieing on his national tv show about a week ago. You just have bits and pieces. Why don't you tell him to produce a video of his son being raised from the dead with Doctor interviews and documentation prrof to dispel all the fools detractors. It would be a great witness. I must also commend Andrew for GIVING away all his teachings FREE OF CHARGE on his website. Anyone can get them for FREE! just download them to your computer at www.awmi.net No other ministry does that with ALL their teachings. He is one of the best stewards of Gods money. Just like many people he got some things from Copeland and other ministries a while back. Copeland teaches pablum, lives in multimillion dollar mansions, owns a fleet of airplanes that wastes offering money taking trips to ski and island resorts. He is a flat out bad steward of Gods offering money and not wise or good ground to plant seed in. Andrew is no supporter of the idiot bad steward offering money wasting Copelands $20,000,000 million dollar airplanes like Copeland has to go to just 8 meetings a year. Andrew goes to three times that many meetings and does not desire to wast Gods money on a $5,000 an hour gas cost airplane. Every place is serviced by commercial airplane. | ||
| trsrinheaven Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bachman, Andrew just explained the son dieing on his national tv show about a week ago. You just have bits and pieces. Why don't you tell him to produce a video of his son being raised from the dead with Doctor interviews and documentation prrof to dispel all the fools detractors. It would be a great witness. I must also commend Andrew for GIVING away all his teachings FREE OF CHARGE on his website. Anyone can get them for FREE! just download them to your computer at www.awmi.net No other ministry does that with ALL their teachings. He is one of the best stewards of Gods money. Just like many people he got some things from Copeland and other ministries a while back. Copeland teaches pablum, lives in multimillion dollar mansions, owns a fleet of airplanes that wastes offering money taking trips to ski and island resorts. He is a flat out bad steward of Gods offering money and not wise or good ground to plant seed in. Andrew is no supporter of the idiot bad steward offering money wasting Copelands $20,000,000 million dollar airplanes like Copeland has to go to just 8 meetings a year. Andrew goes to three times that many meetings and does not desire to waste Gods money on a $5,000 an hour gas costing airplane. Every place is serviced by commercial airplane. | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.144.172 |
Hi Trsinheaven-- If you followed the first thread I started, you'll see that Wommack contacted ME to write an article about him for CHARISMA. But there was ZERO documentation about his son rising from the dead. No doctors because they said the son was NOT dead and it would look "dumb" for the hospital to go around stating people were dead if they were not. It was just interesting hearing Jamie tell the story -- Andrew often has said on audiotapes that "He was all black with a toetag when we got there" which means he'd be in the hospital morgue. But Jamie says, "When we got to the hospital, we were told he was okay/had come back." He had taken a drug overdose so what I think happened was that he had gone into respiratory failure and the nurse or someone had THOUGHT he had died or the something. Regardless of what really happened, thank God their son is alive today. I just wish that the story was accurate. It was nice that Jamie gave the Copelands their due, saying how much they ministered to her and Andrew in their early days. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I just wish that the story was accurate. Yep ... accuracy, honesty, truthfulness ... all good things. Andrew is no supporter of the idiot bad steward offering money wasting Copelands $20,000,000 million dollar airplanes like Copeland has to go to just 8 meetings a year. And yet several others who support this ministry say differently. | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.207.254 |
Hi Marta-- I'm not sure why trsheaven keeps INSISTING that the Wommacks don't support the Copelands, spiritually, financially and socially. I mean, on pretty much EVERY tape, Andrew mentions the Copelands -- even has a joke about "Copenhagin" and how much they meant to him -- Jamie mentions them on her Q&A on this month's DVD, and the Copeland's personally thanked Andrew for his ministry, which blessed and humbled him. I'm sure they don't agree 100% with each other's doctrine -- unlike us here at Factnet, LOL! -- but I know they know and like and appreciate one another. Also, Bob Yandian is a CLOSE friend of Andrew and Bob also serves on Joyce Meyer's board of directors, and if he didn't "approve" of Joyce, he wouldn't be on her board. Anyway, these "big time" ministers DO know one another and DO support one another -- financially in many cases. | ||
| trsrinheaven Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bachman, Marta, You are listening to programs and cd's recorded years earlier. It is not what he thinks now. Everyone changes some better some worse. I even got some things from Copeland just as you Marta and Bachman have gotten things from Andrew. I and many others have moved on from then. You just do not know or understand Andrew. You need to understand Andrew. Andrew does not hold things against anyone, does not take offense, and does not hold or get into unforgivness. He forgets evil done to him and does not ever want to get in strife sometimes too much beyond what is right and not warning others. He even has funny stories where people who lied about him and slandered him with evil excessive ridiculous untrue stories and Andrew actually forgot this. He wondered why they were wierd towards him and his wife had to remind him what they did to him and lied about him. This has happened to him many times. Andrew does not hold anything against anyone including Copeland but it does not mean he goes along with his poor stewardship. I have it straight from him and his right hand staff persons (one who is a certified pilot) he would never ever buy an airplane especially some wasteful $20 million dollar one like Copeland's that costs $5,000 per hour to keep it flying just for the fuel. The only time he would or anyone should ever get their own airplane is when commercial airlines become more expensive then private planes and that will never happen unless they power them with water, air or solar power. lol Andrew even recommends people to some pastors churches who have told lies about him and who had him speak there yet now talk bad about him and stopped booking him in. He just resists conflict and revealing bad things about anyone. That's just him. He does not support Copeland. I know he doesn't. I know him, his staff and accounting people and have for a number of years. PS Joyce puts out full accounting but her Challenger jet airplane is still an unecessary expense along with other stupid things. | ||
| bachman Junior Member Username: bachman Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.207.113 |
Trs, not sure if you read my post correctly but the DVD for Jamie Wommack was for SEPTEMBER 2007 -- that is THIS MONTH! She spoke at the Bible College. It was a 2-part Q&A with her,so it is not OLD programming -- it is BRAND NEW. I don't know what your relationship is with Andrew but I attended his October 2006 minister's conference and there were MANY stories of Ken and Gloria, fond stories about them from Andrew and Bob Nichols and Bob Yandian. Again, this was 11 months ago, not "old news." And his ministry CALLED ME to write the story about his son, so obviously we have a relationship. And I support him monthly via the DVD series because he is not aired in NYC. Sorry but you're "wrong" about him not supporting Copeland and Joyce, et al. His worship leaders, Charlie and Jill, were with Joyce for years--again, these people ALL KNOW EACH OTHER. I don't mean to imply they all agree with each other's doctrine's 100% -- I know they don't. But you make it sound as if Andrew runs the other way if he hears Copeland, et al. Not at all -- and like I mentioned, he was very humbled when Ken and Gloria thanked him for how he has ministered to them over the years. I know you didn't mean to dismiss me and others as if only you know the "real Andrew." Trust me, I know Andrew...I even have his private cell phone number and know his personal secretary. So Trs, if you REALLY know Andrew...what's his secretary's FIRST NAME? First name only for her privacy. Seriously....what's her name? | ||
| trsrinheaven Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bach... So why don't you demand Andrew to document his sons story????? Don't give me they don't have documentation baloney either. I get the monthly dvds and cds plus state of the ministy also. I also have Andrews cell phone and Jim's etc also... Donna is her name and Jim(also an instrument certified jet pilot) is his other top staff person also sometimes on the road with him among others like Don etc. So what does that prove! PS Charlie and Jill were let go by Joyce. They just were capable enough and contemporary enough for her. Seh now uses Hillsong, Delirious, etc.. I have it straight from him and his right hand staff persons (one who is a certified pilot) he would never ever buy an airplane especially some wasteful $20 million dollar one like Copeland's that costs $5,000 per hour to keep it flying just for the fuel. The only time he would or anyone should ever get their own airplane is when commercial airlines become more expensive then private planes and that will never happen unless they power them with water, air or solar power. lol Bach I made it perfectly clear. Andrew speaks fondly of EVERYONE. He actually forgets almost immediately when anyone does wrong to him. That is just him. He never wants to offend anyone especially someone as powerful as Copelands reach has. He just doesn't care. Many people feel that is a fault to see evil continue and do nothing about it. Andrew sees the waste and over the top UNGODLY opulence of Copeland, Creflo, Joyce, Murdock and others. He just doesn't say much except in his financial stewardship series and individual seminars he teaches. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 137 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
trsrinheaven, I think you're being unreasonable. No one can DEMAND that Wommack document his story. Either he is willing to show documentation or he is not. Then it's up to each individual to decide whether to accept his undocumented story or not. And just because Wommack doesn't agree with Copeland's purchases for his ministry doesn't mean he doesn't continue to support Copeland and his ministry. I think you are reading things into this situation that are not here. | ||
| trsrinheaven Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Marta, What do you mean by SUPPORT???? Andrew does not SUPPORT Copeland. He hold no malice to him either. He does see the wrong but chooses (and we think wrongly) not to say anything to him. Have you ever seen Andrew on Copelands show? NO! That is not because he has not been asked. They do not see eye to eye on some specific financial areas etc. Tithing, Stewardship etc. and this has kept from being on other shows. Andrew neither recommends Copeland or his teachings, nor does he send people to his meetings. He like myself have been to Copelands meetings and heard a few ok things along with the garbage which adds up to basically little. Even I got a few things from hearing Copeland in my very younger years. So what! I also was led astray by two major areas he has all screwed up. On another note. His arrogance as a person I have seen first hand. His lack of compassion for people I have experienced first hand to many. He hardly represents someone anyone should look to for teaching with all the dung sprinkled in his teachings. Now bachman boasts of this great relationship with Andrew. bachman posts "Trust me, I know Andrew...I even have his private cell phone number and know his personal secretary." Anyone so close to Andrew has every right to tell Andrew he needs to document this healing since he so many times refers to it. He gives away two video tape documentaries of two other healings in his ministry. He has no reason not to and everything to gain. He is more than willing. He just has not gotten around to it and deemed it necessary as all the other pressing things on his plate. Try doing a show every day running over a Bible College and over a half dozen other Bible Colleges around the US and the Globe, and doing all the ministering he does and see how much time YOU HAVE. I have not talked with them about making this available other than to sugggest it. At the very least anyone can email Andrew and he does read his own email. If you mean financial support. I have it from them they do NOT give Copeland any money. As far as stating anything about Copeland he and Bob Yandian hardly ever say anything if at all about them. I have two friends on staff and one very close on on staff with Yandian in Tulsa. Yandian does not support Copeland! Your wof definitions need some tweaking. So Bachmans Oct2006 rap doesn't ring true with all the years of them and us knowing Andrew and hearing him speak. | ||
| marta Intermediate Member Username: marta Post Number: 138 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I admit that I don't know if Wommack supports Copeland finacially or not. Two people who have posted to factnet, Bachman and getagrip .... and I'm assuming here they are not the same person .... both claim to know Wommack personally and have said they know that Wommack financially supports Copeland and his ministry. You claim to know Wommack personally and you say he does not. So, either you are lying, they are lying or Wommack lied to both of you, telling you what you wanted to hear, because he doesn't like to offend anyone. Either way, I no longer support Wommack's ministry so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. | ||
| inkorrekt Senior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 1079 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.218.130.178 |
Wommack calls Kenneth Hagin Father Hagin. They are all into the Faith message.This means, they support each other. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1208 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
inkorrect, You can't lump every preacher into what you call the faith message. None of them believe the same as they do. I have never heard Andrew call Kenneth Hagin father. So did you just make this up to try and discredit? PS By the way what's wrong with faith?I sure would rather have faith. I sure don't doubt God and His word. DO YOU? "It is impossible to please God without faith" Hebrews 11:6 Find these scriptures and understand them. Faith is the victory that overcomes the world. Fight the good fight of faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If you have faith as small as a tiny mustard seed.... “Have faith in God. For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and DOES NOT DOUBT in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by FAITH the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there from one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.......... | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1209 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
continued . . . 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: What's wrong with faith. According to God NOTHING? He gave us faith for everything including salvation and all that is included in Gods grace. It takes faith for everything. It is the currency we have been given from God to use for everything" Faith appropriates everything God has provided for in His Grace and in His word. "For we walk by FAITH NOT by SIGHT!" 2 Corinthians 5:7 | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 241 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.30.46 |
Hi Trsinheaven-- Let me clarify a couple things: 1) "Now bachman boasts of this great relationship with Andrew" I have a "fun" sense of humor which does not always come through via e-mail so I apologize for boasting and needling you about Andrew. That is not Christian/godly. While it's true I have a relationship with the ministry and they did call me to do the article and I do have his cell number (woop-de-do!) I don't want to imply he and I are buddy-buddy. 2) "Anyone so close to Andrew has every right to tell Andrew he needs to document [his son's rising from the dead] As I stated in my opening to this post, when they called and I asked them about the story, they told me what I already reported--there is no "evidence" -- no doctor or nurse statements, etc. It's just what Andrew has said. Does that make it "not true?" No, but as a journalist, I can't write an article about "the man whose son was raised from the dead!"...and have no facts/evidence. That's "charismania" as we both know! 3) "As far as stating anything about Copeland he and Bob Yandian..." I don't know if you listen to Andrew's teaching tapes which I do, A LOT. Like one a week at least. (He is not on TV in NYC where I live.) All I can say is that on pretty much EVERY tape, he makes some mention of Copeland and/or Hagin -- repeating his "CopenHagen" joke over and over. But because you continue to denounce that has not true, I guess you probably are blessed to watch him on TV and maybe he doesn't mention them? Again, I don't know. But anyone who listens to his tapes--all downloadable for free--hears him mention them all the time. 4) "Bachmans Oct 2006 rap doesn't ring true" Well, all I can say was that I was there and heard all the stories as I posted here: Andrew and Yandian using the same Gloria Copeland story and Bob sending Gloria a check for $500 has a "joke/thank you" and her writing back that she heard the story from someone else--but was keeping the check! (Again, a light hearted joke.) Andrew teaches the SAME faith message (more or less) that they all do, so naturally he would give them some credit. Yes, he does NOT agree with them 100%, but he agrees with them 95%. 5) Jamie Wommack mentions the Copelands on the Sept DVD when she shares her testimony about she and Andrew's early days and learning about faith. I know that you and I DO AGREE on most everything and I choose to walk in unity with you on this. (Inkorreck is just a troublemaker so I ignore him.) And you're right that Andrew is BUSY--I asked him to write the forward to my book and Donna wrote that he is "too busy to read his OWN books" but appreciated the opportunity! | ||
| nikita Intermediate Member Username: nikita Post Number: 443 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.29.64.120 |
Marta, Wommack does NOT support Copeland financially, and does not agree with or support Copeland's views in many, many areas. One being stewardship. Please contact his ministry yourself and find out. They will answer you. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1216 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bachman Andrew teaches the SAME faith message (more or less) that they all do, so naturally he would give them some credit. NO Andrew is far different from Copelands talking and clearer from their message and beyond Copelands circular teaching. His Financial stewardship and tithing teachings are totally and importantly far different. Not to mention Andrews good spending of money and never spending $20 million dollars on an airplane for 8 meetings a year like Copeland just did. Andrew does four times as many meetings per year than Copeland and never has need of a wasteful private jet costing Copeland $4,000/hr just to fly. Yes, he does NOT agree with them 100%, but he agrees with them 95%. No No No that is just not the truth. Its not even 50 - 50 . Again you don't know or listen to Copeland and see the very specific clear differences. You generalize and that is partly the beginning of insanity and propaganda. Andrew also teaches so much better and in depth on all subjects that again are way beyond Copeland. I find Copelands teachings baby food pablum mixed with horse manure...and con game. 5) Jamie Wommack mentions the Copelands on the Sept DVD when she shares her testimony about she and Andrew's early days and learning about faith. "she and Andrews early days."---Thats over 35 years ago. ya think Andrew has a clearer opinion since then? Huh? ya think in over 35 years? So she mentions the early years! I listened to a lot of goofs in the early years too but not for long. The teachings you are listening to are years old. If you don't get his tv program then you don't know what he thinks. You are just listening to some old teachings. Heck many of them would like some of their} first teachings back. They have grown since then? I even heard Copelands teachings from 30 years ago. It did not take long to see through his horse manure. PS which assistants name do you have. I gave you two names proof and you didn't give me anything. How do I know what you say is truth. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 937 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Wommack does NOT support Copeland financially, and does not agree with or support Copeland's views in many, many areas. One being stewardship. I used to listen to Wommack's tapes on a regular basis. I know what he teaches. In my opinion it reflects false teaching he learned from Copeland. And I don't know if he supports Copeland financially, but I do know that Wommack uses some of the same twisted teaching as Copeland to get people to give to his ministry. Sorry, but in my opinion, these two men are more alike than they are different. Like Jesus warned ... Matthew 16:6 "Watch out!" Jesus warned them. "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." You can't, as the wof crowd will tell you, chew the meat and spit out the bones. You can't listen to false teaching and not be affected. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 938 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
trsrinheaven, I know Wommack posts all his teachings on his website, so this should be easy. Please provide a link to one of Wommack's teachings in which he clearly speaks out against Copeland or says that he does not support Copeland's ministry or extravagant spending. I will be happy to listen to the entire teaching and let you know what I think. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 242 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.30.46 |
Hi Marta-- I'll save you the time because Andrew doesn't speak out against Copelands, et al. If you--and Trsinheaven/others--want to hear Andrew tell his "I listen to Copeland and he meant a lot to me as did Hagin/CopenHagin/ etc jokes-- here are some teachings where he mentions those stories: --------- A Better Way To Pray Financial Stewardship How To Be A Water Walker: Lessons in Faith Lessons From Joseph Taking The Limits Off God --------- http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio His teaching on "A Better Way To Pray" was got me hooked on his ministry, but hopefully one of those will be a blessing to you. And I'm sure you'll hear the story of his son's raising from the dead. And here is Andrew's teaching on Mark 11:23, which he usual says, "This is the scripture Kenneth Hagin wrote!" This excerpt is from his Bible notes, also at his site. (Same thing Hagin says, BTW!) --- Note 4 at Mk. 11:23: As explained in note 4 at Mark 1:42, page 86, faith is released by speaking words. Notice that speaking is emphasized three times in this one verse and the Lord commands us to believe that what we say will come to pass. We are to believe in the power of our words. Failure to believe in the power of words won't keep this law of God from working. The last part of this verse says, "he shall have whatsoever he saith." If we receive this instruction and begin to speak words in faith that line up with God's Word, then we will have the positive results that follow. But if we refuse this lesson and continue to speak words of doubt, we will eventually believe them and have the negative things that these words produce. As stated in Matthew 12:36-37, every word counts. There are no such things as "idle" words which will not work for us or against us. Death or life are in the power of every word we speak (Prov. 18:21). Our words can be our most powerful weapon against the devil, or they can become a snare of the devil (Prov. 6:2). Faith-filled words can move mountains. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 939 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I'll save you the time because Andrew doesn't speak out against Copelands, et al. Hey, I agree. Wommack used to be friends with the pastor of a church I attended. Wommack had first hand knowledge of stuff this guy did that was blatantly wrong ... yet Wommack NEVER spoke out against him. Unfortunately, it makes it difficult to see exactly where he stands on a lot of issues. Is he quiet because he agrees with what is going on ... or is he quiet because he thinks it's wrong to speak out against a fellow minister? Either way, I don't really believe he has ever spoken out against the Copelands or the way that they live. (Message edited by marta on September 26, 2007) | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 940 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
trsrinheaven, I think you hear what you want to hear, and believe what you want to believe. You want to believe that Wommack thinks the way you think ... you want to believe that he is outraged by the behavior of people like Thompson and Copeland ... but I really don't think that's the case. I think he is a lot more like these men than you want to believe. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1218 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
marta, I have great ears, a wonderful mind, much knowledge of the word of God and the Holy Spirit in me to discern and hear from. We do agree! I never said he publically speaks out about Copeland or anyone. IN FACT HE HAS NEVER NAMED ANYONE BY NAME. In his early days he received some teaching from Copeland and so did millions of others. Copeland was different years ago and so was Andrew. I do know he has severe differences with Copeland today including the money stewardship area, and a number of other both wof preachers and even winer types like the non wof's like Hank Hannegraff alias unscriptural (Bible answer man) who preaches anti holy spirit gifts, anti tongues etc... Andrew doesn't even speak out or name anyone by name of people who have publically ridiculed him nationally and like you said a few of those being pastors who have tv shows. I disagree with him there and agree that he should speak out against these types including the wasting of Gods money guys on jet planes like Copeland, Murdock, Creflo Dollar and the rest. He does use the word for people to discern the difference in these guys. He did speak out adamantly against the stupid Y2K NONSENSE that flew in the face of Robb Thompson who was selling y2k kits and others. I know Andrew and I do not agree with everything he believes but the major important issues he is right on target. It's a fine line to walk in and not create problems. He does not agree with the wasting of valuable resources that should instead be used for reaching people with the Gospel. He is all about starting more Bible colleges and churches nationally and Globally. He uses every dollar as efficiently as possible and is accessible to anyone as possible UNLIKE THE ELITE dangerous fools that people follow like Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Mike Murdock and a few others. He also gives EVERY teaching away FREE OF CHARGE. (Not just one or two but every major teaching which includes over a hundred teachings. Show me someone else who does that! bachman, Jamie and Andrews early days."---Thats over 35 years ago. ya think Andrew has a clearer opinion since then? Huh? ya think in over 35 years? So she mentions the early years! I listened to a lot of goofs in the early years too but not for long. The teachings you are listening to are years old. If you don't get his tv program then you don't know what he thinks. You are just listening to some old teachings. Heck many of them would like some of their} first teachings back. They have grown since then? I even heard Copelands teachings from 30 years ago. It did not take long to see through his horse manure. PS Which of Andrews staff assistants name ( and give me the last names if they are the same ones I gave you)do you have? I gave you two names proof and you didn't give me anything. How do I know what you say is truth? | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 243 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.249.155.166 |
Hi Tris- 1) If Jamie and Andrew no longer "supported" the WOF, then Jamie would NOT mention their teachers in her September 2007 (2007!) DVD--it was a Q&A session and she could have said, "Many ministries helped us grow in the early days." She said Copelands. 2) Yes, several of Andrew's teachings are "older" but A BETTER WAY TO PRAY is 2006 and the Copelands are mentioned a LOT in that series. Other teachings in the list I posted are at least 2001 because he mentions the 9-11 attacks. So he STILL tells Copeland stories, which he wouldn't if he was so opposed to them. "If you don't get his TV program then you don't know what he thinks/you are just listening to some old teachings" is a bit harsh and I don't think you meant it that way. Because the teachings listed are at least 2001 or more recent, because I saw him "live" in October 2006, and because I get his monthly DVDs, I think it's clear that I DO know what he thinks/teaches. 3) I went to the October 2006 Minister's conference: He invited Bob Yandian (who is back this year) and Bob is on Joyce Meyer's board.(He's listed in her financial report available on-line.) At the 10/06 (2006!) conference I attended there were MANY Copeland/WOF mentions from these ministers--Bob Y, Bob Nichols, Andrew and Dave Duell--which of course they wouldn't mention if they thought Copeland/WOF was so off the wall. You can borrow the CDs if you want! 4) Why are you so consumed with this? I have provided you/this board, facts and evidence over and over and over. Now all you have to do is listen to the tapes I've listed and you can hear for yourself. Or read his Bible notes that I excerpted--all WOF, all available at his site. 5) In addition to Donna W., I know Linus and Kay L. (former staffers), Wayne and Jan K (she has a wonderful worship CD called HEALING WATER), and Don K. Some are Bible school people. This is the last post I will make on the subject, Tris because it's sort of pointless and I think we probably do agree on the most important thing: Andrew's ministry has blessed us greatly. Peace in Him, Bachman | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1221 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bachman, You just don't understand ANDREW. Andrew holds nothing against anyone including the worse offenders and slanderers of himself let alone Copeland etc. This doesn't mean he agrees with Copeland. I have it from his mouth to my ears that he doesn't respect Copeland, Thompson and few others bad stewardship and bad dealings with Gods offering money. He still doesn't bad rap these people on tv or in services but he sure railied on Thompson and his Y2K scandal even going so far as to say it was Pastor in the Chicagoland area. Bob Y, Bob Nichols, and Dave Duell do not see eye to eye with Copeland either. None of them go on record with this either SSO WHAT! All kinds of people use Copeland and Joyce and the in turn use them. You don't see Andrew on Copelands show or Bob Yandian etc. or vice versa. Bob Yandian is a pastor in Tulsa. I know him well and he helped finance outreach missions in Europe and book tranlations in many areas with me and some friends overseas. The point is simple no one wants to hurt themselves or go up against Copeland by name. Andrew just doesn't hold it against ANYONE even evil slanderers of him let along Copland and forgets it and moves on. That is just Andrews personality. peace out, We agree trs... | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1224 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bachman, You just don't understand ANDREW. Andrew holds nothing against anyone including the worse offenders and slanderers of himself let alone Copeland etc. This doesn't mean he agrees with Copeland. I have it from his mouth to my ears that he doesn't respect Copeland, Thompson and few others bad stewardship and bad dealings with Gods offering money. He still doesn't bad rap these people on tv or in services but he sure railied on Thompson and his Y2K scandal even going so far as to say it was Pastor in the Chicagoland area. Bob Y, Bob Nichols, and Dave Duell do not see eye to eye with Copeland either. None of them go on record with this either SSO WHAT! All kinds of people use Copeland and Joyce and the in turn use them. You don't see Andrew on Copelands show or Bob Yandian etc. or vice versa. Bob Yandian is a pastor in Tulsa. I know him well and he helped finance outreach missions in Europe and book tranlations in many areas with me and some friends overseas. The point is simple no one wants to hurt themselves or go up against Copeland by name. Andrew just doesn't hold it against ANYONE even evil slanderers of him let along Copland and forgets it and moves on. That is just Andrews personality. peace out, We agree trs... |
