| Author | Message | ||
     jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
I ran across this interesting article from an old magazine, and I wonder if it is still official Watchtower teaching? Perhaps some JW's here can comment? http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/index.php/watchtower_quotes/medical-science/gravitation_and_electric_energy/ | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
One does not need to be a JW to comment on this! So what’s your point? That they mess up when it comes science matters like this especially one from the 30’s? Also, how sure are you that this is totally accurate? And if so, are you aware of any other groups including scientists that believed the same thing in the 30’s? Again so what is your point? | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
I would think that if Jehovah really were guiding the writings of the Watchtower Society, he would have given them better advice than is contained in this article. After all, we do find many accurate scientific statements in the Bible...such as the earth being a sphere, and basic guidelines on cleanliness. I am unsure as to what you want me to confirm as accurate? The validity of the article? Check the website again it will provide you with a scan of the actual article. No there were no groups of scientists in the 30's who disagreed with Newton. Newton's 3 laws have been accepted, and proven fact for hundreds of years. The Atomic model referenced in the Watchtower article was introduced by Neil's Bohr about 15 years before this article was written. Shortly thereafter it was discovered that electrons do not move in stationary orbits, but in waves (as matter at the atomic, or quantum level does not behave like in does at the macro level). So in reality an atom is not like a planet's orbit, as the article postulates, it is quite different. My point is that the Watchtower writer didn't have a clue as to what he was writing, and was definitely not inspired by Jehovah. The funny thing is that JW history is full of things like this. | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: (Part 1 of 2) You start out by saying “I would think that if Jehovah really were guiding the writings of the Watchtower Society, he would have given them better advice than is contained in this article.” Well, dear pal, you are wrong as God does not guide them in their writings they are not inspired and never claimed this. I think you are referring to the inspired writers of the Bible. Try not to get that confused---Oh—Kay----! Again (as this is discussed in another post to you on another thread-topic) the fact that God’s people in the Bible made many mistakes is and was not a “sign” or correct method of “measurement” to verify their or someone’s claim that they are God’s people! Just use alone for an example; Peter who had God’ s spirit to cure and heal etc when he was with Jesus, to only later deny Jesus and he continued to make many many mistakes throughout his lifetime (as hypocrite etc…) , and yet he was definitely part of God’s arrangement of things! JW’s nor anyone else are not Apostles nor can more be expected of them or anyone else, because of their claims to worship God in spirit and truth or that God’s is using them today etc., (as any sincere religious entity should rightly feel this way) as like Peter, they are imperfect, and fallible and are prone to make mistakes! The entity you are looking for, that has PERFECTION, does not exist today! But it will in the future! If you do however find it, let us all in out it, OK! (Add the high pitch voice of the valley girl for effects). As to your statement, “I am unsure as to what you want me to confirm as accurate? The validity of the article? Check the website again it will provide you with a scan of the actual article.” Dear fellow are you that naive? Fraud takes place everyday by criminals and people who have an agenda from counterfeit cash to counterfeit articles like these. CASE AND POINT: On this website, and string under “Petition Stop Hiding the Truth” a similar matter was discussed and even the moderator of this board, mentions on the first page of this site, the matter of the so-called Hitler letters by the WTS was settled! Again, people will believe what they want to believe, as people in general will indeed take on “face value” (notice I did not say you) things they like, that they agree with, without doing research etc. and then hurl them out there as if it was indeed truth to only end up with egg on their face and for what? They change their opinion? Hardly! I tell you fellow that if I posted the article here, some, which may include you, would refute it as false, so that we accomplish nothing, let alone play into circular psychological games, which I will not engage with here or anywhere else! Remember the Kings Clothes story? Continued below: | ||
| praetorian Junior Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Part 2 of 2: As to Newton’s law, no one is arguing with you, however, as I do not wish to belabor the point, I will say, that there are groups today, as there were back then, that believe the earth is flat, and that the Holocaust did not exist, and that Jesus did not exist and that this was the greatest hoax in history etc. etc. etc.; again what is the point, as we have already discussed the JW’s and their writings simply are not divinely inspired! Now did you notice what you actually stated in your next paragraph “… The Atomic model referenced in the Watchtower article was introduced by Neil's Bohr about 15 years before this article was written. Shortly thereafter it was discovered that electrons do not move in stationary orbits….”, the point is: That there were some, whether proven or not, that did in fact believe differently on this matter, and remember the times, for the setting here please, that there was no internet, communications were at best slow, let alone with the ever changing dynamics of various disciplines! How old are you? News about discoveries and the like travels at lighting speed today (or should I say internet speed) that was simply not available then! Also, dear pal, the JW periodical your refer to, which was later replaced with the Awake periodical has as it’s theme current events in our time of the biblical last days! Ok, we got the point! Ok, you are a young person, student or went to a University and know certain subjects well---Good For you! And in this, my dear pal you are not alone!!! Now what? You then go on to state, My point is that the Watchtower writer didn't have a clue as to what he was writing, and was definitely not inspired by Jehovah.” Ok, since we addressed this point above, let me just say, you are probably right on both points, as the writer(s) were probably not scientists, though attempting to report current events, (poorly of course) and we all know, including the JW’s that they are not inspired! Again, now what? You conclude by stating “The funny thing is that JW history is full of things like this.” And in this, my dear pal, they are indeed in good company (like this phrase) as the Bible record is filled with God’s people (some of them inspired people) doing and saying stupid and worse things! Again, now what? Young person, you obviously have a bone to pick. Ok, out with it? What it the real issue here? P | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
1922 "This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...." (Watchtower, July 15, 1922) 1931 The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of any of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower. (Watchtower, Nov. 1 1931 p. 327) 1933 Enlightenment proceeds from Jehovah by and through Christ Jesus and is given to the faithful anointed on earth at the temple, and brings peace and consolation to them. Watchtower 1933 p. 276 It has pleased the Lord to use The Watchtower as a means of conveying his message to his covenant people. (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1933 p. 247) 1933 As surely as Jehovah has an organization on the earth, just so surely he is feeding the members of that organization by the hand of Christ Jesus. The facts prove that he uses the Watchtower publications to bring these truths to attention of his remnant. Watchtower Nov. 1, 1933 p. 296) 1933 The Lord has used the Watchtower publications, and of fact we have an abundance of proof. No man is given credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watchtower publications. (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1933 p. 363) | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
1933 "This is proof that the interpretation of prophecy does not proceed from man, but that the Lord Jesus, the chief one in Jehovah's organization, sends the necessary information to his people by and through his holy angels." (Preparation; 1933; p. 28) 1933 Enlightenment proceeds from Jehovah by and through Christ Jesus and is given to the faithful anointed on earth at the temple, and brings great peace and consolation to them. Again Zechariah talked with the angel of the Lord, which shows that the remnant are instructed by the angels of the Lord. the remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones. (Preparation; 1933; p. 64) 1937 Jehovah permits his covenant and anointed people to see the meaning thereof, and these in turn declare the meaning to others who might have an ear to hear. (Watchtower, April 15, 1937 p. 124) 1939 We acknowledge as the visible organization of Jehovah on earth the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, and recognize the Society as the Channel or instrument through which Jehovah and Christ Jesus give instruction and meat in due season to the household of faith. (Watchtower, April 15, 1939 p. 125) 1939 "It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose." (1939 Yearbook Of Jehovah's Witnesses, P 85) | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
1940 Court's Question to Franz: "Who subsequently became the Editor of the magazine, the main editor of the 'Watch Tower' magazine?" Franz's Answer: "Jehovah God." (Fred W. Franz on the witness stand under oath, New York King's County Clerks' Court Record, 1940, vol. II, p 795) 1942 "Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all, because a mans opinion proves nothing except when that opinion is based wholly upon the Word of God. Those who believe that god uses the watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling their attention to his prophecies, should study the Watchtower with thankfulness of heart and give Jehovah God and Christ Jesus all the honor and credit and give neither honor nor credit to any man." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1942, p. 5) 1943 The Lord by Christ Jesus interprets his prophecies to his witnesses. (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1943 p. 293) 1954 "They are passed to the Holy Spirit who invisibly communicates with Jehovah's Witnesses and the publicity department" (F. W. Franz, Vice-President of the Watchtower Society, Scottish Daily Express, Nov. 24, 1954) | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
Again the Societies words speak for themselves. No they have never said "We are inspired." The just rephrase it, claiming that Jehovah God causes his thoughts to be placed in their minds, and that he is the editor of their magazines. Again, we are back to word games. The intent is clear, to establish that the WTBTS has a special and unique relationship with Jehovah, that he guides them in what they write. Yet, if this really were the case they would not have had to change their doctrines so many times over the last 100+ years. When challenged about this, they do exactly what Pretorian is doing here, attempt to run and hide from past claims of divine inspiration. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims.....it's a duck, whether you call it a duck or not. And Praetorian just so you know, I'm 30, was in the "truth" for the first 25 years of my life (raised by an elder) and have spent the last 5 years of my life in researching the WTBTS, as well as attending college. | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: At prior engagements, will reply tomorrow! Tata for now, P | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: Fellow you have emotional issues, attached to what you are expressing! In other words, you are letting your emotional and personal opinion or view of them, cloud what is clearly and concisely presented in print for the world to see! Therefore, nothing contained in your first paragraph above is remotely accurate other than from the standpoint of your own position! However, that being said, please note there are smart, dumb, wise, idiotic, reasonable, unreasonable, fanatics, and non fanatics, etc. etc. etc. make up what you know as JW’s, and as such, these types and others are found in all religions and in all disciplines of life, therefore the issue is, did you meet an elder or some JW’ s that may have taken these same words you have, to only put “their own personal take” on it, to mean what “they” (the words) REALLY AND TRULY MEAN TO THEM (as you are, though in the reverse sense) ; “believe” it really means? This however, as true as it may be, is patently not true and sounds more like a JW on his own, having his own personal agenda shared with others, when he should not clearly be doing so! The comment about the “duck” again cuts both ways! Thank you for what I take at face value, as your to comments on age, as you are older than I thought, though younger in manner, in a good way, and I also perceived you went to a University and or College, and also, further perceive that something, that you are not saying is at the crux of this! What happened to you? Now I am not expressing the following to you personally but rather as a comment in general not saying this is you, however, some people have indeed fallen victim to sick, depraved criminal elements such as “bad elders” etc., (father or not) that abused people, and did terrible things to people and as such people instead of focusing on getting the bad person charged with a crime etc. (and this is indeed found in all religions and walks of life) decide they want to take it out on the JW’s as a whole! This type of unfair stereotyping is at the crux if many of the attacks on them and others! This, as horrible as it may be, and cannot be tolerated, cannot be the measuring rod to use for whether or not a teaching is correct or if an entity is used by God because again, the scriptures are filled with those who were unquestionably God’ s people that did similar bad things! With that said, please do not take my words out of context, as I am not condoning heinous actions, in fact from where I come from, we prefer to “shoot” people that like FOR REAL!!! Ok now what; In the end, this is not what JW’ s believe! And if you still believe this to the contrary there is nothing anyone can do to change your mind, thereby allowing you to hold to your position, however it should be noted, that your position has been replied to here, despite your not agreeing with the same! I truly wish you well! P | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.39.194.240 |
My emotions are not at issue here. You claim that the WTBTS does not claim to be inspired. I have provided several quotes which clearly prove that they do claim to be inspired. Perhaps you could respond to the above quotes rather that attempt to shift the conversation away from them? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: I have indeed responded to your quotes as evidenced to anyone with an 8th grade reading level above (on a side [post] by side [post] or one after the other basis) in this and on other strings, as these posts serve as an indelible record and testimony to the same, as they will not go away no matter what you post hereafter! When you show me a quote from WTS's publication’s wherein they clearly claim they are of “divine origin”, “divine inspiration”, “divinely inspired” or "inspired" I will convert from my personal belief system to following you and or anything you say! You Go Socrates! In the meantime do not try to peddle your twisted false misrepresentations here, about their writings or sincere belief that they (as well as others who are sincere about their faith should believe) are God’s Channel of Truth and that they “act” as God’s modern day “prophet” not as to predictions but as to providing or parroting bible warnings! Also don’t forget to provide me the name of the perfect group on earth that makes no mistakes, that is infallible in their belief system, that you believe God is using today! Cheers! P | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.50.53.175 |
I see, so the quotes I provided prove nothing? Fred Franz stating under oath that Jehovah is the editor of the Watchtower does not prove a claim of divine inspiration? Perhaps you have your head buried in the sand? Or maybe you are not really one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Every JW knows that the Governing Body speaks for Jehovah, that's common knowledge, or do you disagree? Here's a test for you Pratorian (notice how I use your name instead of some condescending catch phrase like pal...?); walk up to your local elder body at the next meeting, and tell them that you believe the Governing Body does not speak for Jehovah, I dare you. You accuse me of "peddling false misrepresentations" when it is you who try to gloss over the unwritten rules within the "truth." Your last response is a prime example of conflicting dualities in logic. You claim that I misrepresent claims to being "prophets" as to predictions, but not as to "bible warnings..." Again with the semantics, they are one and the same. Because you cannot logically defend the ever shifting explanations JW's manufacture for failed past predictions and claims of special status before Jehovah, you must resort to arguments about word choice, and sentence structure. Please tell us, do you deny that the Governing Body speaks for Jehovah on Earth today? | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub I will be able to read your post for a reply on Monday upon my return. Cheers! P | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 71 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: (Part 1 of 3) As to your post on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 6:02 pm above, I cannot speak to whether the quotes you provided mean “nothing” as they certainly mean something to you and to those who want to believe like you! In my responses to them I attempted to show that may of your quotes were indeed taken out of context, that’s all. As to Fred Franz stating things under oath, first, I was introduced to this same matter several years, ago, fellow, when doing research on JW’s and found this so-called quote in a number of books, one in particular stands out in my memory, entitled “Doctrines of Devils”; and I actually did the intensive research and paid for copies of the transcripts that I no longer have today, though can tell you that this too, was take out of context as what you express simply did not happen nor was ever said by “them!” I can tell you that there was indeed a court matter wherein the subject matter lent itself to questioning Franz as to his skills as a translator of Hebrew into English etc., that was not anything related to statements like “….Jehovah is the editor of the Watchtower…” etc. I have read many things like these throughout the years, and find that those who dislike (or hate) the JW’s will believe anything (or write anything) they want to believe and those who like them, simply don’t! I can tell you that I believe that my head is not buried in the sand, (though you believe it is) as it would be difficult to write these things in that condition (having fun with you, I know what you mean…LOL) perhaps a better word is naďve, and I can tell you that if you knew me or what I did for a living, naivety is not a good trait to have! As to my belief system and to being a JW or not, my answer is, I believe implicitly and explicitly what the Bible teaches on the subject matters it touches upon, no more and no less, and at the same time I also believe that one does not have to be a JW, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim etc. in order to explain or to respond to people’s unfair criticisms about a particular subject matter as being wrong. Many people I know are married to JW’s and love their spouses very much and resent the BS and garbage that is stated here and in other places about them, knowing it is mainly total fabrications. You state, “Every JW knows that the Governing Body speaks for Jehovah, that's common knowledge, or do you disagree?” and my answer is; no one today can truly speak for Jehovah God, other than Jesus Christ, and anyone making this claim is stupid and foolish. As to the JW’s believing that the GB is represents the “Manager”, “Stewart”, “Faithful and Discreet Slave” spoken of in Matthew 24:45-47, and Luke 12:41-44, then the answer is yes! Please note that being the Manager for the Lord on earth is not the same thing as claiming divine inspiration or that the Manager speaks for the Lord directly etc. however, the Manager as a Manager should, (and in this matter as they believe) is responsible for spiritual feeding the Lord’s Household! And again, any group, Church or organization that claims to be Christian and that they truly follow God and his Son Jesus Christ should feel that way as well, or, why believe in what they believe in, in the first place! (Continued Below) | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
(Part 2 of 3) You act as though because they sincerely believe this, that they should be infallible or something like that, and I am here to tell you, that so long as people are people, meaning imperfect, then they will make mistakes! That’s it, no more and no less! It is true that at times much to my own failings, I can be rough, rude and condescending in my writings, and for that, and for calling you “pal” which indeed was meant to be derogatory, I apologize. Sadly I find that I tend to respond to people here on this site in the same manner (rough, rude and condescending) that they respond to me (which at times are indeed kind and therefore I respond accordingly) or make posts in a rather cavalier matter of fact style as if they were indeed the “final word” on things, when often these are opinions, and angry opinions from people that have a bone to pick or a separate agenda! Fellow, I am my own person and whether elder or not, I speak my piece, if that is what you mean, as I know who and what I am as a person and a man! And I know of people that feel the same way who are JW’s and have made statements like that to elders and the like, and the issue is not that they make the statements or believe what you state, (as the converse is true, that their are some JW’s who probably feel they the JW’s and the GB are more than what they themselves express they are, and give them greater status etc.) it is when the individual JW decides to make an issue out of this and start teaching it to others, and causing divisions, dissensions and the like, in a place of worship, as to who is on what side etc., that it then becomes another matter! And (as I discussed this on these boards before in more detail) as a matter of principal, a group, church, organization, people or business have the right to set the standards or structure by which they operate as such, and those who associate with them are to conduct themselves, SO LONG as THE SAME GROUP etc. make clear up front, or discloses up front to it’s members, associates, workers etc. that certain things are so and that violating the same will have this or that as a consequence! This is just a simply matter, of the facts of life! You then state, “You accuse me of "peddling false misrepresentations" when it is you who try to gloss over the unwritten rules within the "truth." Fellow, I have responded to you by explaining and pointing out that what you state, when placed under scrutiny, does not hold water, (on some things, not all) and in turn you feel that my doing so is to my attempt to “try to gloss over unwritten rules within” my own writings about what “I” believe or express about them!!! You are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am to mine! You continue the issue as to “prophets” wherein I stated that “acting” as a prophet and being a prophet (in the Biblical sense) is not the same thing especially the way it is used in the Bible. What further can I say, as we don’t agree! You wish to take their (JW) words and make it fit into the definition of a biblical “prophet” that is an inspired person or persons that make predictions and so forth, despite their writings to the contrary, so be it! (Continued Below) | ||
| praetorian Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
(Part 3 of 3) I am not going to change your mind, however, you should at least express your self more clearly by stating that ‘this or that’ is what they say, but in reality (and in your opinion) they actually mean ‘this or that’ as it is your opinion as to what they actually place in writing that is at issue here, no more and no less! But you will do what you want to do! So be it! In the end they are not one and the same; look at a dictionary and see, how the words can have different meanings (homonyms) on this and with several topics including religious ones! Let me say it this way, I know JW’s (and as well as people from other religions very well) and they do not believe what you express and they are currently JW’s! This shows that it is an opinion! Again, I am not sure what else to say here as you will (and others) choose to believe what they want to believe on this subject matter! Fellow you accuse me of artful contrivance and use of semantics, thereby giving me too much credit, as I feel the answer truly lies in how simple it is to take apart what you express or quote as factual! If I had poor command of the English language you would throw that in my face to make your point, by expressing I truly don’t understand what I am reading! Come on!!! My expressions at simply that, mine, and not yours, and as such, it is not unusual for people in opposition, to point to things like you did, as a way to feel better about themselves or as for a reason as to not convincing the other person to their way of thinking! I am sorry, that I am not “totally stupid”, so you can run me over with your train! I do not need to defend them or anyone else (as they are not my clients etc…LOL) as to what they do, (as with others) stand for itself, as with any work! Again, I am still waiting for you and other others on this board, to enlighten me with the group on earth that is truly infallible so that I can go and learn the things you and others know! Tell me; teach me, I am all ears! You end your post with the statement, “Please tell us, do you deny that the Governing Body speaks for Jehovah on Earth today?” My answer to this is simple: The JW’s believe as should any honest hearted and sincere person, that their religion is the right or true one! And as such that the GB is a representative body, of several Christian JW’s from around the world, whose role is to be the Manager, Steward or Faithful Slave, (as stated in Matthew 24:45-47, and Luke 12:41-44) of the Almighty God Jehovah and his Son Jesus! They also feel that as Manager the day will come when Jesus will approach and or disapprove of their individual actions as well as of that of whole world of mankind as a whole, which remains to be seen for all Christians who profess they love God! Sincerely, P | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.250.211.46 |
pratorien said: "The JW’s believe as should any honest hearted and sincere person, that their religion is the right or true one! And as such that the GB is a representative body, of several Christian JW’s from around the world, whose role is to be the Manager, Steward or Faithful Slave," That's a very good explanation of the official JW position on the Governing Bodies role. In other words the writings of the Society, and the talk outlines put forth by them are really the collective work of the entire 8000+ members of the anointed slave class? There are not the sole product of the Governing Body and the writing committee overseen by this body? Is this what you are saying? Here's another question.....If I went to an elder and told him I no longer believed that the Governing Body were no longer being used by Jehovah what would happen? | ||
| jeeprube New member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.250.211.46 |
pratorien said: "You act as though because they sincerely believe this, that they should be infallible or something like that, and I am here to tell you, that so long as people are people, meaning imperfect, then they will make mistakes! That’s it, no more and no less!" So we are to trust the Watchtower leadership when they teach us something. We are to trust them when they reveal that a past teaching was wrong and now we have a new teaching, such as the change on "this generation." Why? What does this trust derive from? If they do not speak for Jehovah, then why can we not disagree with them openly? If they do not speak for Jehovah why follow them at all? Why must we constantly be forgiving of their mistakes, when they have very little forgiveness for our mistakes? You tell us that the Governing Body are not viewed as special within the JW community, then why do the brothers and sisters line up to meet them when they visit District Conventions....as happened at this past weekends DC in Kansas City? These are all valid questions, and each one of them can get me disfellowshipped. Why is that if what you say is true? | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: They have a representative (I know I am wasting time here but) body of what you call the “entire 8000+” persons they call anointed (those with a heavenly hope/calling) which they call the GB, and yes anointed people from around the globe contribute (In fact many who are not anointed contribute) to writings, that the GB oversees and puts out! OK! As to your other question; “Here's another question.....If I went to an elder and told him I no longer believed that the Governing Body were no longer being used by Jehovah what would happen?” They would reason with the person and try to ascertain why they were now feeling this was so, and if the person simply felt that way, had a change of heart, and decide they wanted no part of the JW’s they would respect the wishes of that one and leave them alone! If on the other hand (I am repeating myself as I discussed this over and over with you on different topic strings and posts) they insist that they want to teach this in their place of worship and so on, they would probably put that person out, disfellowshipp them! OK. You then ask “So we are to trust the Watchtower leadership when they teach us something” that is up to each individual to decide, you have clearly decided not to, and others, six million others have decided to indeed trust them! I remember an Elvis Presley Album that had on the cover, the phrase, ‘One Million Elvis Fans Can’t Be Wrong.” Now, I am quoting this for fun, but it goes to show the point that there are others who do not think like you and some that I can testify to personally that are not JW’s that respect and admire their views! And in the end fellow, you do not to have to deal with them. And for someone not wanting to have anything to do with them, you sure have a lot to say about them; considering you are over them….yada, yada, yada! Man believe in what you want to believe just know that there are many more who do not believe like you and they have as much right to their opinions and beliefs as you do and some of them were disfellowshipped! People line up to meet people they respect and admire everyday! And please know, “Toto, we’re not in Kansas anymore!” P | ||
| jeeprube Junior Member Username: jeeprube Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.28.53.82 |
Praetorian, this is a very fair answer! I appreciate your honesty. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Jeeprub: Thank you for your response and please know that I have from the bottom of my heart and with the soul of my sincerity, all of my replies, have been with honest; and with that said, could also contain error, but honest none the less. Please keep my email on file, as this board may shut down, despite our contributions! I wish you nothing but the best in your life, including your spiritual life as well! Also, I will be leaving the country (US) over the next several days and will not be able to give attention to any posts or emails until I return some time the middle of next week! Sincerely, P | ||
| crawly Junior Member Username: crawly Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 4.240.252.156 |
1929 '''''watchtower article'''''; "the scriptural proof is that the second presence of jesus began in 1874"........prophecy page 65 .... gosh, did jesus really appoint charlse taze russel to be his mouthpiece on earth? russel sure was good at numerology...... he knew all about the pyramids in egypt and how many cobble stones that were in the corridores of the pyramids of egypt. he was sorta a mason, but always denied it. but he wanted to be buried as a mason, after all of his prophecy failed and he got sick and was dying... ..... so his followers buried him as a mason. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Crawly: I have addressed this issue previously, however not to your satisfaction. In the end, their chronology has been established from their standpoint now for many years, that Christ’s presence via the establishment of his Kingdom took place in 1914. They do apply the scriptures and events to themselves as fulfillment of things prophesized! The believe they are the ones that Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12: 3, 4, 9 and 10 as well as Matthew 24:45-47 and Luke 12:41-44. These scriptures must apply to someone or some entity in the last days. I would like to know who you feel better fits this description. As far as being a Mason, I understand that they believe in the immortality of the soul, as a prerequisite to their membership, and Russell and his associates, did not believe in this. There is much confusion over this and a lot of stories surrounding this however, he did feel that there was a link with the Pyramids in Egypt and Bible Chronology however this was later abandoned is not accurate. I think you fail to realize that JW’s do not worship or follow Russell, in fact there were or are still remnants of people that followed him called Russelites and Millennial Dawnists. And yes he is burned under a pyramid. P | ||
| crawly Junior Member Username: crawly Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 4.240.81.158 |
russel claimed jesus returned in 1874, and appointed his special little group to rule, because they knew armageddon was in 1915 ooops 1914, err... he knew all of that because of his wicked numerology, counting the cobble stones in the pyramids of egypt. he claimed if anyone disagreed with him, they were bird food at armageddon. later, he died his way out of all of the failed prophecy in 1916, and his followers buried him and built a pyramid with a bunch of mason signs on it next to his grave. notice how preatorian supports wicked self-appointed false prophets with a bunch of excuses and sly talk. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 181 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Crawly: Since you are good at repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is! One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’ Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board. I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.” P | ||
| crawly Junior Member Username: crawly Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 4.240.81.67 |
gosh preatorian, you are pasting the same answer for all the posts here? is that a jw tactic? hey, did you get a kick out of how russel told everyone he was in charge, and all the church members would die in 1918 if they didn't obey him? are you trying to avoid that blasphemy of your wicked leadership by posting a lot of fluff? | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 215 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Crawly: What a coincidence! No it is a tact you showed me that works well for your mind! Since you are good at repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is! One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’ Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board. I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.” | ||
| crawly Member Username: crawly Post Number: 80 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 4.240.81.45 |
preatorian is just posting the same answer to all posts now for a while...... it is a cult tactic. anyway; 1929 watchtower: "the scriptural proof is that the second coming of jesus occured in 1874" don't you get a kick out of false prophet liars and their team of cheer leader fluff posters like preatorian? they may seem sincere, but jesus warned to stay away from those snake liar wolves in matt 24;24 they are just smooth talking con artist that are trying to mislead..... they are searching for followers. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 227 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Crawly: Since you are good at repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is! One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’ Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board. I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.” P P.S. Then you and are cultists...Go get your drink on! | ||
| crawly Member Username: crawly Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 4.240.253.69 |
notice how in the beginning few posts, jeeprube posted quotes of the watchtower leadership claiming their interpretations were "god's interpretations"....... then he listed a whole bunch of false prophecy by the watchtower society. sortly after all of the quotes jeeprube provided, preatorian jw started insulting him as a response and even calling him names. this is a jw tactic to discredit the debator, and then change the subject. jws are experts at that...... you see, it gets really tricky for a jw to explain how they are the two prophets of rev 11, and at the same time not guilty of all of their false prophecy. many times, jws even claim not to be jws as they debate.....that way, they can use those tactics, and later claim they are not a jw, and jws would never use those tactics. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 266 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
Craw: Duh P | ||
| crawly Intermediate Member Username: crawly Post Number: 120 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 4.240.81.238 |
as the jw gov body claim to be ''god's appointed vioce on earth''....... they are exposed as being consistantly wrong about everything, while they claim....... ''so what?'' |
