| Author | Message | ||
     40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 90 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
I use to think of YWAM as a more balanced group but if you go to this YWAM link and scroll down halfway, you will find a bunch of postings in capital letters by a guy called steve (must read stuff). It looks like some of the YWAM leaders were using the YWAM kids as servants a little bit to much and using their cash for their own needs. I know ICC uses folks but I thought YWAM was better then that. I know EN likes to use some members for free baby sitting and house moving and stuff. I guess it is just a common user mentality out there among the annointed ones who your not suppose to touch and if you ask to many questions your in rebellion. One differance for sure though is that YWAM is biased toward putting young woman in charge of missionary groups. It sounds like a lot of the mission work though is really young people serving the leaders and their privileged life style. | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.81 |
Yeah, but we were on the cutting edge of this behavior and better at it then them. Those YWAM folks were supposed to carry our briefcases 'cause we were the green berets, and everyone else could follow us or be damned. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.1 |
40: I've read through Steve's commments on the other thread, and personally, I know people from my church in St. Louis that went to YWAM and who joined staff and whom the organization greatly benefitted. These kids learned a lot from their ministry experience(s) at YWAM. Based on what Steve has said, without further specific detail from him, I really cannot judge his experiences, or say that what he has observed and experienced is experienced by all. I've never heard negative criticism like this from people who I personally know who served on staff with YWAM. | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.151.70 |
Well JBK it does sound like YWAM was better then Maranatha for the most part and most felt free to come and go as they pleased and YWAM does make an effort to help the poor. After reading most of that thread it does sound like certain base camps are much better then others, depending on who is running them. In YWAM it appears according to posters that missionary group activities revolve around base camps set up around the world and young people are expected to submit, and sacrifice to the base camp and its leadership. Those who are not submissive enough have reported being labeled rebellious and bitter LOL. YWAM is similar to Maranatha in that people that go to YWAM raise their own support from outside churches and sponsorhips just like lower EN ministers raising support from outside of EN churches. People join YWAM usually from many differant charismatic churches across America and this does give YWAM the ability to kind of cherry pick the winners from across the Charismatic landscape. It appears quite a few feel subtle pressure to go full time and many do not complete their college education leaving them without necesarry skills when they leave. Bob Weiner really wanted to be accepted by the Charismatic movement in America but it appears that YWAM is a lot better at putting churches at ease about YWAM. It does appear that many churches are happy about young people hooking up with YWAM. Still I wonder if Bob Weiner got the idea of having young people raise their own outside support from YWAM? If that is true then you can link the present MPD fund raising techniques in EN to YWAM indirectly through Bob Weiner. I know YWAM was considered in a pretty favorable light by Maranatha and I believe some of their kids came to our MLTS'es. I just wonder did YWAM influence Bob Weiner in certain ways, especially in the way ministers had to raise their own support? JBK if you read down further on that thread to what was posted in late January 2007 by pilgrim you will see that YWAM would interfere with peoples personal relationships and YWAM leadership does use information against people that was obtained in counseling sessions. Like you said a lot of people have had more positive experiences then Steve had at YWAM. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
40: The people I know who went to DTS for YWAM, and some who eventually came on staff, or served in various mission projects went to the base in the Nashville/Clarksville, TN area. Oddly enough, that is the same geographic area where EN is HQ'ed. But I don't think these people attended Bethel while they were at YWAM. It is probably true that the young people are taught to be submissive to their leaders, but that's true across the Board --- I think its hard to judge, though, because we weren't there, we did not hear the context of what was said, we did not hear manner in which these things were said, etc. etc. etc. I prefer to give YWAM as a whole the benefit of the doubt. I also have heard testimonies from friends who served in YWAM that people who were sent there by their parents have been saved, emotionally healed, delivered, etc. from real problems (e.g. drug and alcohol abuse, severe emotional issues, etc.) We should praise God for that. Any organization that is getting people saved, healed, delivered, etc., and that is meeting practical needs should be applauded for expanding the Kingdom of God. So long as the fruit of the Spirit is being demonstrated, "against such things there should be no law." Another thing I know about YWAM: There are kids who go into YWAM from non-charismatic backgrounds. They might become charismatic after they begin their DTS, but they originally are Methodist, Baptist, some other denomination, etc. Not all are charismatic originally, although clearly YWAM leans that way as a whole. I agree with you and your concern that many feel pressured to go on staff full-time and thus do not complete a college education. However, I disagree that one needs to have a college degree in order to have "necessary skills" in life. If you are truly called to the ministry, having a college education is by no means essential --- it is just a plus. Another thing that I would distinguish between YWAM and Maranatha is that YWAM was not created around the shepherding-discipleship method like Maranatha. YWAM is a missions organization, and that's all. Lastly, I did read what Pilgrim wrote about YWAM interfering with personal relationships, etc. Again, its hard to judge that kind of thing because we weren't there. Nevertheless, I'd rather give YWAM the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the personal relationship was unhealthy. Maybe the personal relationship INTERFERED with the goals and purposes of YWAM. Maybe the personal relationship was a distraction to the main task --- evangelizing and discipling the nations. We don't know because we weren't there, but best guess is those things are possible. Other thoughts or ideas - ??? | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 93 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.151.70 |
JBK, I can see why some people might be concerned about boyfriend, girlfriend stuff interfering with the missions thing but still that is part of life. I have been doing searches on YWAM for the last few hours and am kind of concerned about the amount of new age mumbo jumbo, visualization techniques, new age junk, the NAR...etc. which seems to have captivated many top leaders in YWAM. Lots of people out there are concerned about it. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
40: Well, there is some good and some bad in every organization. I agree that bf/gf stuff is a part of life, but if you are in FT missions work, your personal life kind of has to be put on hold. Paul addresses this in the Scriptures that if you are married or in a relationship, that has priority over you serving in the church. So, you really have to make a decision based on priorities. I am also concerned about some of the new age junk and visualization techniques. I saw some of that at Covenant Life and was disgusted with it, overall. They endorsed theophostic junk, unfortunately. However, I think the overall mission and philosophy of YWAM is valid, and experiences seem to vary per base and per person. Lastly, to me there is not much a difference between the DTS for YWAM, and the Honor Academy for Teen Mania. Or does someone see a difference between these two organizations - ? | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.151.70 |
I don't know about the differances between Teen Mania and YWAM. What type of theosophy junk did you encounter at Covenent Life and where is Covenet life? | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
40: Covenant Life is in Oklahoma City. Theophostic "ministry" was presented as part of the "deliverance" ministry of the church. Real deliverance, of course, is casting out demons. However, theophostic was biased against that, and instead used such techniques as guided imagery, and that kind of thing, to get the person back where they were wounded. Of course, that's totally un-biblical because God does not require old wounds to be re-opened in order to heal us, emotionally and spiritually. | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 95 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.151.70 |
hmmm, so that is theosophy? I had that done to me but just went along. OK you see Jesus and I said yea, what is he saying and I said he says it will be OK   ! | ||
| robert_unknown Junior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
I know about this theophostic thingy. the guys who lived by deliverance seminars here introduced this some years ago. as far as i know, the idea comes from some psychology methods. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
40: No, theosophy is something else. I said "theophostic." | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 121 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Theophostic - you decide. | ||
| robert_unknown Junior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
I would not send a person with serious mental problems like depressions to a counselour alone. i think christian counseling is good, but not the only answer. the most counselours i have met have no understanding about psychology. i would not blackpaint psychology as a total, which would be very unfair. while Freud had some very strange views, based on the materialism of his time, todays psychology has done a lot of good and honest research, together with modern neurology and science. we cannot reject psychology just because Freud was an atheist and because he had strange ideas. science opens a door for better understanding of the brain and we would be foolish to reject this. i think the bible gives us a good frame about what a person is, where the responsability of each one starts and ends, and so on... but science and modern psychology helps us to understand WHY people react in certain situations like they do, or what happens in the brain through traumatic experiences, or what happens during a depression, etcetc... the problem with many christian counselours is that they think often they know everything better than professional people, while in fact they are not educated properly and do not understand much about the basics of humans physical and psychological nature. ie take just the area of depressions: it is so big, that most counselours dont even understand how many different depressions there are. IMO counseling is not enough to bring releave to a depressed person. how shall a counselour discern the reason for a depression? i mean, for example, there are reactional depressions, then there are depressions based on dysfuntions in the bio-chemical household of the brain, and more... while christian counesling might be good in a reactional depression case, where the person who needs help knows the point when the reaction started (ie traumatic experience), a christian counselour cannot help at all, when the person doesnt remember or when the person has a depression based on dysfuntional bio-chemics. in the first case he can help the person with the scripture (foregivenes...) and with prayer and advice to a certain point. in the second case it often ends in "words of knowledge" which are in some cases strange "pictures" ore "visions" or "words" about what happened in the mothers womb or in former generations (i have seen much of this!)... often this ends without any releave at all and with much weirdness and confusion. perhaps the person needs only good medication...? but he never will get one, because the counselour is no doctor... so - in my opinion - christian counseling has its place, but its not the only valid and helpfull solution! | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 |
MCM: I think for once we will AGREE that theophostic stuff is BAD. Amen, brother - ? | ||
| robert_unknown Junior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
a relative of mine, christian since decades, struggled with depressions since he was a young man. all the counseling and proclaiming and reading scriptures and forgiving and deliverance done on him and by him did NOT help. some years ago he went to a doctor who understood that the depression was the result of a lack of biochemicals in his brain. he received and still receives medication and has NO depression and NO panik attaks since this day. and this after years, where he seeked for help in many christain ministries, churches, seminars and books... His life was hell sometimes because of this and his whole family suffered when he had this attaks. of yourse his selfimage also suffered, because he was not "able to overcome" this weekness. In fact it is a desease and he could be helped easily by professionals and not by "the prophets" ;) there is a good christian doctor (from the USA) who helped us tremendously with a seminary to understand this whole context of depression better! here is the homepage... http://www.drgrantmullen.com/ | ||
| mdillon New member Username: mdillon Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.211.21.213 |
40-Still I wonder if Bob Weiner got the idea of having young people raise their own outside support from YWAM? yes I remember Loren Cunningham speaking at an MLTS sometime but I don't know when. dilly | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 125 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
I concur with dilly. IIRC, I had tapes of Loren Cunningham from an MLTS. Also, like I wrote on the other YWAM thread, we had a number of "ex" YWAM members in MCM. Bob's theology really was an amalgam borrowed from a number of disparate sources. | ||
| flo1151 New member Username: flo1151 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.158.37.41 |
dilly and 78 Yall are correct about an amalgam of beliefs and practices. I remember Loren cunningham as well at an MLTS or something. Winkie Pratney also was very much involved with YWAM. BTW Winkie nearly died recently from a hernia and then complications due to infections. He was in hospital for 2- 3 months and was in a drug induced coma for about half that time. He is home now but has still a long bout of recovery and of course he has no health insurance. Bob Weiner also got a lot of ideas from Campus Crusade. It is amazing that it was any idea to promote the vision and ministry. Whatever worked for someone else we tried no matter whether it was right or not. Dilly, Sorry about your birthday, your present is in the mail. In the meantime http://youtube.com/watch?v=5pnXGJvNAls flo | ||
| mdillon New member Username: mdillon Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.211.21.213 |
flo, thank you for bringing life back to the EN threads. they miss us. ok, I'm going to go ahead and say 'amalgam' because its a cool word and you guys used it so I'll give it a shot. Maranatha was an amalgam of disparate ideas (thanks jon78) and I see that amalgam and raise it a chameleon. MCM was a chameleon operation. We could look right to any stream of ministry darkening our doorways, YWAM, Campus Crusade, WOF,the Mystics, the Shepherding Movement, Rushdoony, Principle Approach, Pro Athletes, Denominations, Republican Right Wingnuts. ad nauseum we could change colors at a drop of a hat. and flo was dead correct, use whatever worked anywhere else, obedience to God be damned. It is what eventually spelled the demise of it all (thankfully), the insecure notions of Kingdom wannbes and by godalmighty you better pay attention to us. One time at a pastors hospitality room (free goodies)a certain GB overheard me say something about dominion and principles and he confronted me and said, "I thought you were a faith man" and I looked at him cockeyed and said "WTF do you think I am?" and he commented that just because I had an air of intellectualism (pride) that I couldn't possibly be a faith man. I politely offered him to bring his ••• to Boulder Colorado and try and make the same living as he was used to, we'll see if you have faith buddy boy. In an effort to co-opt the 'best' from what was happening at the time, Maranatha eventually split up into 'camps' which spelled its demise, again thankfully. EN still operates on a parasite mentality. Co-opting churches that have already been built but have not found or have lost their moorings in Christ. C'mon Ricey, pull your strings at ESPN and get an EN Draft Day going. Oops, sorry, I hear recruitment is down, my bad. sorry for the spew, its that time dillyrant | ||
| matt_hatter Intermediate Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Interesting Dilly, it was and is the house built on the sand. Remember Evangelism Explosion? We looked around and saw groups like Campus Crusade using it and wow, 500 kids showed up at their meetings. What we failed to take into account is that 450 of those kids were raised up in a denominational church and looking for a campus version of their youth group, which they found in Campus Crusade. And then there was us...a merry band of wackos with a theology that made no sense even to me as a pastor. Who in the name of Sam Hill would want to be in a group like that? OK...let's try....the Principle Approach. Now there is something that your average college student could relate to. Unbelievable. So we think by putting out some rag newspaper and setting them around campus, students were going to look at those pics of George Washington and follow their nose to the Maranatha House. You see the same arrogance now in our friend Jay Forerunner that existed then. OH SNAP! It's is cell groups like Yongi Cho in Korea was doing...that's the ticket! So we have a "married" cell group and one young couple almost get into a fistfight because we are having to expose a bunch of private stuff...yea, everybody wants to get in on this kind of fun. OH DOUBLE SNAP! Bob gets his grace revelation...that is what we lacked. You will begin to walk in grace, dammit. Nope, that didn't last long, as Bob had no concept about the true Grace that Christ offers... I could go on and on but you already know that this is reading like a bad movie. It was and is a shallow organization led by very shallow people who cannot tolerate people that may be different from them. In the midst of all the bravado, insecurities abound, to this day. | ||
| robert_unknown Junior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
we have experienced the same things here, already before EN. I think it has to do if the organisation or church is led by man or men who need to proof to themselves and to others, that they are rrrrreally good. they need to proof themselves and they are always in competition with anyone around them. so they need to build a big church, because for them its a sign for succes... so they come up with new programs every 2-6 months. and its always "GOd" who tells them, and the church always has to put a lot of ebergy, effort and money into this crap, only to hear after months that "God" has shown pastor another programme... people got/ get sick of this! its nothing than fruitless activism. all that it brings is emotional sensation... at least for some months. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 120 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.173.123 |
No after you were gone Hatter, Bob brought back the grace and compassion message again and again and again, it resides in EN right now. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Dilly, et al, I think this element of pragmaticism (as dilly so eloquently put it whatever works and "obedience to God be damned") infects much of popular American christianity, especially of the Pentecostal/Charismatic/WoF variety. The idea seems to be "it works, it must be God", which is fallacious on the face of it, but seems a self-evident truism to many. Of course, this leads down a slippery slope to a lot of questionable or outright immoral/unethical practices which are all justified as being "of God" because, well, they "work". | ||
| flo1151 New member Username: flo1151 Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.158.37.41 |
This is some good stuff here guys. And I am impressed with your vocabulary Dilly I knew you were a wiseass all along. Hatter, thanks for bringing back EE, "what would you say to God if he were to ask you 'how should you get into my Kingdom?" Or something like that. That was sure some pleasant memories in Gainesville Florida for a whole month. We sure changed the world. Then we got to be rebuked by a non=charismatic speaker because we interrupted him while he was under the anointing. And who could forget our lunches with Bob and the speakers for a month. My wife should have left me and in Dr. Phil's words kicked my butt to the street. It was as the last few posters have said. However I maybe should be ministering in the opposite spirit. must go to work, have a good day flo | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 124 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.134.57 |
Chameleon operation! that is good I was accused of being a chameleon at work after I left Maranatha. Some christian girl said I know what you are, your a chameleon. I guess a chameleon is a man pleaser. But that is cool, Dilly telling the faith man to come to my dung heap without much cash$$$ and then talk to me about faith  ! | ||
| coppertree New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.151.107.170 |
Hi All, Catching up from math project-I think from my view in Maranatha, that the in fighting, and jockeying for positions would put a ward in Chicago to shame. We drank from the same fountain as Machiavellian, and rejoiced in it's taste. This was a Christian group, grudges were kept for decades. One's disciples were attacked by another for being just that, or over some disagreement or jealousy to their overseer. No wonder that it takes, or took a good day to get over our time there.} | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.162.143.21 |
I remember both EE and the two question test. (Was that part of EE?) That was another hyped tool we all had to buy and use. We had to buy this whole tract kit and set up a booth on campus asking folks the two question test to try to convert them. | ||
| sameo Junior Member Username: sameo Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.140.253.49 |
EE and the month in Gainseville...two of the worst experiences in my life! | ||
| stillrecovering Junior Member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 206.47.220.230 |
I believe these are the 2 EE questions you were referring to: Q) If you were to die today, are you sure you would go to heaven? Q) What would you say to God if He were to ask you why He should let you into Heaven? Yeah, EE was offered in my church and I completed the program as well. Anyone else remember those ridiculous questionaires? http://www.barf.org/archive/ee/ee-questionnaire.html | ||
| matt_hatter Intermediate Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.4 |
The idea that the gospel could be served up as a deceptive 'survey' in a canned speech was always repulsive to me. I never tried it, and never pushed it. Of course, that got me pushed further out the door. I think of Christ and the woman at the well. He spent time with her, a Samaritan, a woman, both no-no's. Then he talked to her personally. She was so touched, that she became one of the first evangelists. Thank God Jesus left his EE survey at home.  | ||
| john_r_jones Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
I guess all of the above are indicative of how unimportant people are other than fodder for the machine. Personally that is about as anti-Christ as it gets and to me the spirit of the age of religion being the love of an objective above all else. What ultimately happens is that God is also relegated to a functionary of the ministry. "How can you say you love God whom you have not seen and not love your brother?" A church in the penumbra of human invention and expedience has no relation to the kingdom Jesus has sought to make us aware of. A kingdom not based in might or power, as shopworn as those words are for Charismatics, but by His Spirit. Jonesee | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 128 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.18.61 |
But guys lets say your not a glib guy that can just come up and talk to people easily? This is a tool, it is true with that method you are doing a survey you really don't care about but you can present the questions and really care if the person you are talking to knows about the salvation message. Maybe your a little to critical here? Just a question. | ||
| john_r_jones Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
40, the kingdom isn't sinner's prayers and decisions for, or for that matter, against Christ. It's about having the Spirit of God resident in your life and tools as you say don't come into play. One day I went to the place where I get my groceries to make a pick-up, just run of the mill errands. The secretary mentioned as I joked around with them that I always had a peace about me and when I came in it was apparent. I didn't know what to say so I just nodded and moseyed on out the back door. My phone rings occasionally with someone I have an aquaintance with who has a problem and has sought me out. Or the day I went and sat with a sales rep and his family while his son had emergency surgery. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back but to me that's kingdom. I don't think of asking someone if God would let them in His kingdom as much as I think of them saying the kingdom they've seen in me has come to them. Scripture says Jesus had compassion on the multitudes that He suffered with them, not scorned them. Jonesee | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 131 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.18.61 |
I agree and I can see the benefits of your approach but if your trying to evangelize people you may never see again you still have to get the conversation started and I do think there is a time and place for someone to make a decision. Even if they don't make the decision right then and there you have planted some good seeds for the future hopefully. I guess the tools and the little Campus Crusade booklets can be a bit dry but they do help some and help people understand things about the salvation message. | ||
| john_r_jones Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Ok. Jonesee | ||
| pilgrim New member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
40days40years RE: YWAM link. You wrote: "pilgrim you have had the worst luck it seems with chults I am shaking my head in disbelief. I read your post here dated January 30th 2007. I always thought that YWAM was a healthy alternative to the Maranatha/MSI/EN thing but now I am not so sure." Did you also read my message, posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 6:25 am? My involvement with Maranatha and Youth With A Mission and them interfering with my chances to get married and in love with a real christian brother have affected me all my life and have lead me to make wrong decisions. In 2004 when I first read this discussion board I had faith that if God created the whole universe he was capable to deliver me from the consequences of those decisions and that he would create a way for me. Now I do not feel able to believe or have faith that God does care about me and my situation. I believe that what I dreamed, wished and wanted the most in my life have been stolen from me by these organizations. In my opinion, I was still under the effects of brainwashing and mind control when I left these organizations. I wish with all my heart I had never been involved with any organization that have the power to decide who gets married and who doesn't or to tamper with other people's relationships and friendships. It is too late for me, now I believe that I will never recover. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 187 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.98.101 |
pilgrim don't give up your faith in God, he does love and care for you. My life is messed up too but it was messed up before, during and after Maranatha so, whatever? One problem with this ministry is that they teach people to wait for God to do something, next thing you know a lot of time has passed. We should have been taught to be more pro-active. In your case both MCM and YWAM committed a crime against you, especially in regards to starting relationships. This reminds me of Ginger who posted that she has friends that are now in their late 40's in EN who never somehow hooked up with someone and that was their dream. I know Hatter on the other board said that people like Rice and Bob owe us nothing and I agree to a certain extent but they do OWE souls like yourself Big TIME for supporting a rotten system. The struggle continues. Inspite of your problems your faith and trust in God has inspired me, don't leave that behind. He cares but life is tough. I wish I could be more inspirational. | ||
| j2theperson Junior Member Username: j2theperson Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.27.68.96 |
I think I understand what you feel, Pilgrim. I wish I had something comforting or encouraging to say, but all I can honestly say is I know what you feel.
What if someone doesn't know how to be pro-active? I've lived my life the best way I know how, to be good and honest and diligent, and my whole life I've been told I need to be more pro-active. I need to put myself forward and make people notice me. But I don't know how to do that, and the times I have really made an effort to be pro-active, things didn't work out any better than if I hadn't try to be pro-active. I sometimes wonder if there is any value to believing in God. Is it psychologically healthy? I think believing in God has cut me off from other people. I don't like to do the things most non-Christians do or live the way they live, my mindset just seems so different from their mindset I can't really relate to other people my age. But, the church has been such an empty and painful experience for me. I can't relate to them either. And even when I was a part of them I never quite belonged. I was always pushing the rules, and thinking to myself how stupid and annoying most of the people were and how boring I found everything. And now I'm stuck, by myself, because I don't fit in either place. I have no desire to go back to the church, but I don't know how to live my life as a non-Christian. The idea of God took up a huge portion of my life during my more formative years, until it became a part of who and what I am. I would like to change, but I don't know how. Freeing myself from my belief in God is not like cutting away a growth; it's like cutting out my internal organs. You just can't do that and live. I am so ashamed and embarassed by my spirituality. And I am ashamed and embarassed by what I am and what I gave my life to--something empty and defective and useless. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 193 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.98.101 |
J-2 don't be ashamed of your faith, so you made some mistakes, you were not pursuing something empty, defective and useless. You girls are making it tough for me to be a Christian counselor here. I am starting to have empathy for them and the shrinks (like I could picture myself listening to someone and seeing them waiting for my response and the whole time I'm thinking "uh ohhh, what do I say now ?"). I have to think more about what both of you just posted you have heard most of the advice I could give you. I guess concentrate on one day at a time. I guess I can kind of relate with not really belonging in the church world or the "world" - Help fellow counselors, help. | ||
| j2theperson Junior Member Username: j2theperson Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.27.68.96 |
You're too funny. The thing is, I don't know about Pilgrim, but I know for me there really isn't anything anyone can say that will help me or make things better. I need something to happen or for my life to change somehow. I'm really, really hoping that the podcast I just started doing will work out and that I'll be able to earn some money with it. I want to have a job that plays to my strengths and doesn't cause me so much stress that I have to either quit or suffer some sort of mental breakdown. I want to have something that's real, that I can hold onto. If God actually does exist, He doesn't seem to give real things; He gives kind words and promises that are always for the future. | ||
| 40days40years Intermediate Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 194 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.238.30 |
Well J-2 I have been thinking, it does sound like every body is looking for fulfillment outside of themselves and that is dicey. I am guessing pilgrim dreamed of having a dynamic home life with a loving Christian husband and because of the interference of men that did not happen and it seems she believes it might have if only others had not interfered?? To Pilgrim though, what about all the Christians who are divorced and their kids don't like them all that much either? Their in the same boat we are. With myself I am kind of self defeating (even if there was not a shortage of available people that would want me). I miss not having what others have half of the time and the other half of the time I am a loner who does not want to put the effort into getting that normal life and holding a job I hate to get it, plus I am picky. I guess it is my own fault, oh well life goes on. On a related topic about being happy, there is a guy on a message board who women are not attracted to and he finally came to the conclusion that half the battle for him to be happy is to not give a s@%$#! Something about if you have no expectations you can't be disapointed. Still I do think you can get some comfort in your own unique dysfunctional relationship with God, just know he loves you and don't let anyone including yourself tell you differant. Look at all the old widows who putt around with their friends who seem to be fulfilled even though their spouse may be long gone and half their friends are dead? They are doing something right, we should take lessons from them. Yeah I hope that podcast works out, maybe you could post some good sites for me to check out on how to do my own and where to get sound effects..etc. I agree it would be nice to have a job I really liked that paid well. | ||
| pilgrim New member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
40days40years and j2theperson, You have both been very kind to me. I many I feel in the same way as both of yourselves. 40days40years, You wrote, "One problem with this ministry is that they teach people to wait for God to do something, next thing you know a lot of time has passed. We should have been taught to be more pro-active. In your case both MCM and YWAM committed a crime against you, especially in regards to starting relationships. This reminds me of Ginger who posted that she has friends that are now in their late 40's in EN who never somehow hooked up with someone and that was their dream." I believe that some people got married some body who they were not in love with and were not comfortable with because the cult did not allow them to get married to the right person and to have a normal relationship and they are also in their 40's dreaming that somehow God will create a way for them to be married and in love with a person that they feel comfortable with before they die. Others did not get married at all. The whole thing is so tragic in my opinion. It is sad that many people life's including mine had been trashed in that area. I have not lost all my faith I believe that God can guide me in other areas but now I do not feel able to believe or have faith that God does care about me and my situation in this particular area that had been trashed by Maranatha in my belief and opinion. I think that everyone should read the valuable testimony posted on Teachings/Bible/Practices click on Love and dating in Morning Star and look for the testimony written by lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd) on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:41 pm: He said in his testimony,"Now that I have begun to awaken and recognize my condition and the power it has had over my life, including hunkering down and surviving all that M-natha threw at me, we are many years into a hard and lonely marriage. Tremendously painful." I pray and hope that many more people in his situation are brave enough to come forward and write their valuable testimony to stop others from falling in the same trap , now that I have also begun to awaken and recognize my condition and the power it has had over my life, including hunkering down and surviving all that M-natha threw at me, I also find my whole situation 'tremendously painful' I also pray that a Godly answer can be provided for people in his situation. An answer that would give hope and not make us feel worse and without hope. You said, "You girls are making it tough for me to be a Christian counselor here." You are doing a good job, you showed to us that you care and that in some ways you are also affected. I do not like a counselor that is fully detached from my feelings and emotions I never got any help from such counselors. The people that help me the most were those that could try to put themselves in my shoes and identify with my feelings. | ||
| pilgrim New member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
j2theperson, You wrote,"And now I'm stuck, by myself, because I don't fit in either place. I have no desire to go back to the church, but I don't know how to live my life as a non-Christian." Many times I feel in the same way but I know that I do want to meet real christians I just do not want to go to a building where they run a business called 'church'. I do not fit in a business called 'church' and I do not fit in the world either. I only fit in the real church that many times is outside the building and spread all over the world. Maybe you will be able to have fellowship with some of the people from this board by email. It is better than nothing. Also you might be able to meet with one or two real christians in your home who will really love you and want the best for you. I hope that you meet at least one or two christians who do God's work without any financial interest. The church is not a profitable business and it is no a building either. The real church of Jesus Christ is us. You said, "And I am ashamed and embarassed by what I am and what I gave my life to--something empty and defective and useless." Many times I feel angry that I was stupid enough to I believe that people like Bob Weiner were christians although in Maranatha I believed that they were blinded to my situation and that one day God would open their eyes. I also feel angry that I gave the best years of my life to an useless and demonic cult in my opinion. You also said, "The thing is, I don't know about Pilgrim, but I know for me there really isn't anything anyone can say that will help me or make things better. I need something to happen or for my life to change somehow." I also feel in the same way, unless God by a miracle give me back part of what had been stolen from me by cults in the area of relationships before I die there isn't anything that anyone can say that will help me or make things better. | ||
| osakadan Junior Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.185.186 |
Wow.... a lot of good stuff being written here, and especially from 40. Seems like I will have to cut you some slack with those other posts of yours... It is too late for me, now I believe that I will never recover. I completely understand why you think that way Pilgrim but believe it or not they do change, whether by design or just through the meandering of time. I don't think we can dictate or predict how they will change but I believe they will --- be it the intervention of God or a higher power, or Newton's theory of being in constant motion or karma or whatever. From May of last year until January of this year I was either laying in bed, or laying on the sofa almost unable to move, with little hope of things getting better, and plans for worse things. My fiances were destroyed, my relationship in ruins as she could just not comprehend the depths I had sunk to, and basically my career ruined in terms of having thrown away the opportunity of a lifetime. But through what on the surface appears just a piece of luck, I begun working again in an area that I had given up 15 years ago and thought I had no talent for. But surprisnly enough it sseems I became a very good elementary teacher without even knowing it, and that I even have some wisdom to pass. Just this weekend I was offered the position of assistant principal after starting as a volunteer in february! (turned it down for a lot of reasons). And even though I still struggle with depression I actually have hope for the future, and I know deep down that I will be fine. Is my path how I envisionaged it 3 years ago? No way but it doesn't matter. This one is different but better in so many ways. And I meander from the point but Pilgrim, I do believe you will recover. You may have lost what you thought was the path you should take, but there may be a better one waiting. You may get married at a latter age and become a foster parent, you may always be single but find a purpose that negates the things you have "lost", you mayf ind love in your twilight years and think the wait was well worth it.....And again, perhaps God has a hand in this or perhaps it is just the nature of things.... My forever cousin found love at 50 and has been crazy ever since, at the age of 63 and after being a widow for 12 years my mother found love again. These things are not out of the realm of possibility for you Pilgrim. I know it is easy for me to say but you just need to try and get on with living and I do believe what you need will come to you. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 170 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
As long as there is breath there is hope. Sometimes God brings us to a place where the only thing we can do is look up because there's no place down left to go. When all the man-made religious notions have been stripped away and we no longer care for anything but God Himself, I believe we can find Him. The bible is not a "rule book" for relationship with God, it is accounts of the relationship others have discovered with Him and Who He has revealed Himself to be to them. But like the man seeking healing for his child, when the Lord spoke to him "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth" responded in tears "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." May God help us all in our unbelief and may He truly have mercy on us all. | ||
| pilgrim New member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
osakadan and mcmstaff78, Thank you for encouraging me. I did not explain my whole situation very well because I want to protect the privacy of my family. That is why I can not say anymore than my situation is in some ways similar to the testimony posted on Teachings/Bible/Practices click on Love and dating in Morning Star and look for the testimony written by lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd) on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:41 pm. It is very difficult for me to go public with such a private situation but I feel that it is very important for me to do this to show to others the long term damage that cults do to people. I am also praying that more people will come forward and post similar testimonies. If I read this testimonies when I was 16 years old I would have never got involved with any organisation that have the unconstitutional power to decide who gets married and who doesn't. | ||
| j2theperson Junior Member Username: j2theperson Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.27.68.96 |
For me, my embarrassment isn't really about having joined EN; it's about have become a Christian at all. I became a Christian when I was 6 years old, and, I'm not going to spend time explaining all the specifics, but when I made that choice I had a little more understanding of what I was I was doing than most 6 year old who become Christians seem to have. Because of that, I think my Christianity probably had more meaning to me than a lot of the other kids around me who also became Christians at a young age. A decision that I made when I was 6 years old is now, 20 years later, ruling my life and causing me a huge ammount of distress. I feel like such an idiot, and I wish I hadn't made that choice. I wish I had put that choice off until I was older, maybe just six or seven more years, so that I would have had a chance to just be a person. | ||
| pilgrim New member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
j2theperson, I am glad that I became a Christian when I was 9 years old. But I am also sad that I did not have the wisdom that would had stoped me from getting involved in the false church and cults. Why do you feel embarassed for becoming a Christian? Blessings Pilgrim I wish I was a better christian but sometimes I find it difficult to trust in God. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Just a thought, but we make the decision to "become" a Christian every day. | ||
| coppertree Junior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.135.21.167 |
Hi All, MCM 78, do you mean that you are not in the elect ? What are you saying ?} | ||
| j2theperson Junior Member Username: j2theperson Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.27.68.96 |
It just seems like a very stupid choice to have made. On the one hand, I think that trying to have a relationship with God has made me personally a better person. People who meet me seem to think that I'm a nice and admirable person. But, I don't really know anymore if God really exists. I think He might have been nothing more than an imaginary friend. But I didn't know He was imaginary; I thought He was real, and that is very embarassing. And what is even more embarassing, I can't stop living my life as if He were real. Truth and reality are important to me, but it's begining to look like I spent my whole life in a fantasy, and now I don't know how to stop living that fantasy and begin living in reality. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 173 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
I'm saying we choose to become a Christian every day. If by "elect" you mean a Calvinist/Reformed perspective on the term, then, I would say I don't adhere to that particular perspective. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.81 |
That's quite enlightening stuff j2. I now understand your username I think. You are often quite open about your life and thoughts here, and I hope we all treat them with respect. You are quite young compared to many of us and have indeed experienced a kind of lifestyle from a young age that most of us encountered when we were older. We lived a lot more of the dark side of life probably, and did indeed have opportunity to discover ourselves outside of the boundaries that Christianity or the church puts on us. I'm not so sure that was all that much a good thing, but it's real. There's no easy answers for you, because you have obviously put a lot of thought into this stuff, and are heavily invested emotionally, and have apparently grown cynical and perhaps a bit despondant in spirit, so to speak. There aren't many magic words around here, but there are a lot of people who have realized some of the same things and can be good friends and have some good things to say. Maybe we can't recapture some of the time or things that religion or whatever has stolen away from us, but we can learn from the experience and make the most of our remaining time with a different outlook. You are so young and have so much more time, by the grace of God, to rebuild a personal reltionship and faith in God than many others. I believe God is very patient and graceful towards you in your very real dilemnas and understands why you are disillusioned. There is no shame in Christ, and even if you believed and acted wrong like the rest of us saps who were duped by religion, you did so with an intention to please God. That embarrasment will pass. Don't be embarrassed for loving or serving God though, even if you haven't experienced the kind of relationship and results that others lay claim to. As for the specifics of your life, I could say the trite old thing that everything will work out in time if you just trust god, but I think you've heard that enough. I will say that you are an intelligent woman and a fine person who deep down wants to have a relationship with God, if He is as real as said. Maybe just being yourself (who everyone seems to like) without trying to please everyone else, and scrapping most of what you were taught and just getting to know him in prayer and reading the word afresh might help. My wife always said that she felt out of place in the world of Christianity because of how she thought and acted. Thank God for that! That turned out to be my blessing. Being cynical about what the church or people taught or teach doesn't have to translate onto God, but it can, especially with a lot of the factnet influence. I haven't got too much of this down myself, but I'm learning its ok to dump a lot of the religious teachings and stuff and and all their limitations, and experiencing a greater appreciation for the grace of God and people. There's lots of my past I'd want to do over, but I can't and so I move on in an ever evolving faith in God and His grace to help me make the most of my life. Even in my marriage and family, I had to overcome a pretty twisted past filled with dissappointment before I got married at age 30. This in the face of strong councel that things would work out differently if I trusted God. They did work out different- much different than I had expected and hoped at the time, and I now find myself doubly blessed, rather than despondent as I was. The God I didn't and really don't understand really is at work and there whether I realize it or not, and He's really there for you too. Anyway, just some more rambling there that I hope has at least a grain of meaning for you. | ||
| pilgrim New member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
j2theperson, You wrote, "On the one hand, I think that trying to have a relationship with God has made me personally a better person. People who meet me seem to think that I'm a nice and admirable person." You also wrote, "I can't stop living my life as if He were real" Your imaginary friend Jesus Christ is real. The bible says that the Earth is a sphere, if the people in the middle ages read thier bible would not had believed that the earth was flat. Isaiah 40:22 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain 22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencebible.html http://www.bible.ca/b-science-evidences.htm http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks.htm Job 28:5 (KJV) 5As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and under it is turned up as it were fire. Hell http://www.av1611.org/hell.html http://home.primus.com.au/kenshaw/page7.htm Sometimes when my prayers are not answered I feel tempted to believe that Jesus Christ is an imaginary friend but when I look at all the miracles in my life in the past I know that my friend is real. I am not strong I am weak. I could not have left Argentina twice almost without money without God's help when I look back I know that I could not have done it on my own. In 1984 I wanted to go to America and my American visa was rejected twice. I had a dream were God told me through a visitor that I should go to Mexico. I thought that it was a silly dream but soon after that dream I got a letter from YWAM telling me that I should go to Mexico. I risked all my savings, left my job and rented room and everything that I had to go to Mexico on my own and without an American visa. I got my American visa in Tijuana, Mexico. I believe that one of the reasons that God allowed me to go to America was to see the corruption in the church. I wished to see only the opposite but God did have other plans for me. The whole universe was created though our fried Jesus Christ. John 1:1-3 and 14 (KJV) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. j2theperson, you also wrote, "Truth and reality are important to me, but it's begining to look like I spent my whole life in a fantasy, and now I don't know how to stop living that fantasy and begin living in reality." I can not believe that my watch was created out of chaos. To believe that my watch was created out of chaos would be to believe a fantasy. The universe in much more complex than my watch. So to believe that the Universe was created out of chaos it would also be to believe in a fantasy. When I see the stars and the earth and the universe I see that my friend Jesus Christ is real. Hold on to your imaginary friend Jesus Christ. He is real. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
To me, the Psalms are the best medicine when I experience a "crisis of faith". It is okay to question God, to have doubts, to even get angry with God. King David did it and in his honesty and open heartedness towards God he found a living relationship and not just a formalize set of precepts. My favorite Psalm is 142 (LXX numbering; 143 in the Masoretic text):
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| pilgrim Junior Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
To everyone, I would like to add that it was my involvement in YWAM Argentina in 1978 that lead me to join Maranatha in 1979. I would also like to mention that the house of Phillips (Felipe) and Ruth Saint that was used in 1979 to start Maranatha was also used by YWAM in 1978. I visisted that house in 1978 before the members of YWAM went back to their own country. Please look at my message, posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 5:01 pm: Title, "A Little Bit About My Background and the Beginning of Maranatha in Argentina " In the following link, to see the some of the catholic connection with YWAM and part of some of my involvement in YWAM 1978. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/14464.html?1144871661 I am very grateful to everyone who posted here of factnet, I had found the answers to all my questions regarding cults and its false doctrines. I had also found healing in most areas of my life affected by cults, except one, where there is not an easy answer but I will try to trust that the God who created the whole universe can create a way for me. | ||
| jesusisawesome Junior Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 63.18.75.108 |
Pilgrim: I had also found healing in most areas of my life affected by cults, except one, where there is not an easy answer but I will try to trust that the God who created the whole universe can create a way for me. JIA: Knowing that "one situation", I know there aren't any easy answers. Despite this, I believe God wants to bring healing even there. How, in what way shape or fashion, I don't know, but I believe He will work it for your good. He does take the impossible situations and works them for good. I will continue to keep you and J2 in my prayers. I don't have the easy answer or solution for either of you, but all I can offer is to say that having been through something somewhat similar although also different, I understand the struggles. I believe there is the light at the end of the tunnel for both of you, and I am thankful that God has brought you both into my life, and for the contact and friendship we have and are building outside of FactNet. You are both two wonderful women, treasured of the Lord ... and definitely treasured by me . . . and I will stand by you in friendship and prayer no matter how long it takes for the answer to appear . . . even if it seems like the answer will never appear. That's okay. God understands, sees, and cares deeply. | ||
| pilgrim Junior Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.129 |
jesusisawesome, Thank you for your friendship and love in Christ. I also treasure real friends and real brothers and sisters in Christ. May the Lord our God bless you and keep you always. I will also pray for you even if the answer does not seem to come. Read Hebrews 11:39-40 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Read also the whole chapter of Hebrews 11 in the following link. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2011;&version=9; | ||
| jesusisawesome Junior Member Username: jesusisawesome Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 15.235.153.107 |
Thanks Pilgrim, I do believe that He will work good in the midst of my Dad's cancer.  | ||
| speakword2004 Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
In light of the widely held belief that EN is the ••••••• child or direct descendant of MCM I found the following statements I read from M. Scott Peck this morning to be very interesting: “The only obstacle to building and maintaining community within an organization is not structural. It’s political. If you get somebody at the top who is not willing to relinquish the structure, even temporarily, or who has to dominate everything, there’s no way you can have community in that organization. So the people in the organization, particularly at the top, have to be willing to temporarily lay aside their role and their rank. “Many people are either unwilling or unable to suffer the pain of giving up the outgrown which needs to be forsaken. Consequently they cling, often forever, to their old patterns of thinking and behaving, thus failing to negotiate any crisis, to truly grow up and to experience the joyful sense of rebirth that accompanies the successful transition into greater maturity.” Please also see his viewpoints on EVIL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck | ||
| speakword2004 Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
In light of the widely held belief that EN is the ••••••• child or direct descendant of MCM I found the following statements I read from M. Scott Peck this morning to be very interesting: “The only obstacle to building and maintaining community within an organization is not structural. It’s political. If you get somebody at the top who is not willing to relinquish the structure, even temporarily, or who has to dominate everything, there’s no way you can have community in that organization. So the people in the organization, particularly at the top, have to be willing to temporarily lay aside their role and their rank. “Many people are either unwilling or unable to suffer the pain of giving up the outgrown which needs to be forsaken. Consequently they cling, often forever, to their old patterns of thinking and behaving, thus failing to negotiate any crisis, to truly grow up and to experience the joyful sense of rebirth that accompanies the successful transition into greater maturity.” Please also see his viewpoints on EVIL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck |
