| Author | Message | ||
     majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
The bantering and quibbling is getting nowhere. The real issue is legalism. Read Galatians (and I mean really read it). Paul cuts the legalists no slack whatsoever. Do you suppose that wearing your hair up, not drinking coca cola or coffee, not eating ham, avoiding cowboy hats and modern wear get you extra credit on your final exam with the Maker? If you do, you are greatly deceived. Now, let me see, who said that what goes in the mouth and out to the dung heap doesn't defile the man, but what proceeds from the mouth does? Or who said that if you decide to keep the law, you must keep the whole law? How about, "Having started by grace, are you perfected by works?" Or, "By grace you have been saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast"? "Do not be subject again unto a yoke of bondage". If these directives are being ignored, as I see is occuring, then it is heresy, pure and simple. I know Mormons and JW's- nice people. So what? They're doctrinally totally screwed up. As nice as the three families are that I know out at HH, it doesn't matter one wit. What is practiced is not the gospel, but a religion concocted by man. Somebody better start using the ol' noggen here, instead of emotional debates grounded in personal experiences. "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." --Bertrand de Jouvenal "At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is 'not done'... Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness." —George Orwell "There is nothing virtuous in unquestioned obedience. Since God implanted in us the drive to understand (even little children are born with the drive to raise questions), it would be a sin against nature to stifle questions. Besides, one way that we are each made in 'the image of God' is in our capacity to raise questions without end. That capacity in us is our foretaste of the infinite. It is the root of our 'natural desire to see God'." --Michael Novak | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Before there is any additional boasting about who has the greatest light, consider the persecuted church in Asia. The greater light, if it can be claimed, is there, not in central TX. | ||
| foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Great post. Bump | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, The philosopher/humanist says .. "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." The Lord Jesus says .. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me Choose you this day ... Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.248 |
I choose NOT to follow HH.I heard the voice of the Shepard. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
The scribes and pharisees quote scripture too. So, is H.H. the in place to be if you want to reside in God's will? Prax, you didn't address the legalism. Faith plus nothing equals salvation. I'd like to see the first person on judgment day who says, "God, look how good of a person I was. I did this, this, and this. I deserve to have your favor based upon my works." I studied Galatians intensely in Bible college, and today it serves me well. You start by grace, and you continue today by grace. HH teaches as doctrine the precepts of men. ALWAYS beware of people who never question their own beliefs, and are always right. There is real value in having to answer for what you believe, even if it hurts. The enemies of truth are always awfully nice." --Christopher Morely "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." --T.S. Eliot | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Just thought of something- By what authority do you at HH add to Scripture? Don't even try to tell me that caffeine, the Old Testament dietary law, hair up, standardized clothing, and asking your minister permission to go on vacation are Biblical. BTW, are there any real members of HH here? Is anyone "allowed" by special dispensation to read what they want? | ||
| dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
I don't really know how many HH members read here regularly. I know my Dad keeps up with the postings. Also, your list of so-called "un-Biblical" things HH does has a serious flaw. The Old Testament is a part of the Bible....making OT dietary laws about as Biblical as baseball is American. Things like this really cast a shadow over your presentation. | ||
| missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.143.205 |
If that is so then you are a dead man Daniel...read what happened in the OT to rebellous sons... | ||
| missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.143.205 |
Daniels dad is an elder...do the common people read here? NO...only by an act of God. | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Interesting post dowen. The only item on the list that majajh posted that is 'Old Testament' is the dietary laws. The other four items are nowhere to be found in the Old or New Testament. And, if something is found in the Old Testament is that what makes it 'Biblical'? Can I assume that polygomy is 'Biblical' also? Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Old Covenent, necessiating the formation of a New Covenent. In the New Covenent, Jesus left us with only two commandments, not the myriad of laws and rules of the Old Covenent, which were of necessity imposed to externally corral man's sinful nature, since man didn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Things like this really cast a shadow over your presentation. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Colossians 2 20(BA)If you have died with Christ to the (BB)elementary principles of the world, (BC)why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to (BD)decrees, such as, 21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22(which all refer (BE)to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the (BF)commandments and teachings of men? 23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in (BG)self-made religion and self-abasement and (BH)severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against (BI)fleshly indulgence. Acts 10 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he (Q)fell into a trance; 11and he saw (R)the sky opened up, and an [f]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and [g]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" 14But Peter said, "By no means, (S)Lord, for (T)I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." 15Again a voice came to him a second time, "(U)What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." Need I comment? Where is the defense of the items I have pointed out? There isn't because short of rationalizations (rational lies), there is no other explanation but for plain Scripture vs. the precepts of some middle-aged white dudes (liketh me). | ||
| dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Problem is, Maja didn't mention anything about the New Covenant. He simply stated that the OT dietary laws aren't Biblical. Which clearly isn't true, thereby tainting all of his other points. As to the rest of Maja's points, they are easily answered and have been gone over here on FN many times. Repeating yourself gets weary after awhile. DOwen. | ||
| dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Problem is, Maja didn't mention anything about the New Covenant. He simply stated that the OT dietary laws aren't Biblical. Which clearly isn't true, thereby tainting all of his other points. As to the rest of Maja's points, they are easily answered and have been gone over here on FN many times. Repeating yourself gets tiresome after awhile. DOwen. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Matthew 15 ...by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'" Jesus and the Apostle Paul took very seriously exterior worship and Paul was downright hostile towards those who would burden the gentiles with the circumcision and Jewish laws. | ||
| dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Sigh. I speak of being weary of repeating myself, and then the message board program double posts it...  Hey Maja, I do not follow the OT dietary laws, and HH hasn't come down on me for it. Therefore I don't come down of HH for following them. The thing is, HH doesn't even follow OT dietary laws. (i.e. no cheese burgers etc.) Sure, they don't eat much pork (Although they do eat it on occasion), and sure they tend to stay away from catfish and shrimp, but it actually has alot more to do with eating healthy than it does OT laws. DOwen. (Young sunburned whitesh reddish dude) | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
It depends on your definition of 'Biblical'. If being in the Bible means it's 'Biblical', then, yes, the dietary laws are 'Biblical' (as is polygamy). If being 'Biblical' means applying to the New Covenent, than, no, the dietary laws are not 'Biblical'. Are they a good idea? Most of them are. Are they required for salvation? No. And, yes, the rest are easily answerable. None of them are necessary for salvation. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Well, the points I've made haven't been addressed. Dowan, I like you, and I like your loyalty. It doesn't mean I'm not feeling compelled to speak up (never has been a problem with me). Let me tell you a bit of my story: I was a die-hard Catholic. In fact, I wanted to be a priest. We played Mass when I was a kid. There's a guy I've known my whole life- an American Baptist. Not a saved guy, but a Baptist in name and attendance only. He used to taunt me relentlessly about my religion. I used to chase him all over his yard and down the alley trying to beat him up. We'd still get over it and play at some point. As much as I hated him sometimes I got to thinking about what he said. I had always taken the word of the Church on things, and knowing the Bible was kind of one of those things nobody ever did. Well, I attend a cowboy church now (good luck finding one of those when I move to Hawaii in July). The point is this- I got to thinking, "The Catholic Church teaches me X, and the Bible says Y. Which do I choose? The Church I loved with all my heart, or the Bible, which I didn't understand so well?" Guess which won? I ended up going to Bible College, then several other colleges. The Bible won out. It doesn't mean that I have animosity for the people, it just means I'm going to be a holy terror when I think heresy is being promulgated. | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
majidh, as DOwen points out, we have had indepth discussions about the doctrinal distinctions. eg. looking at the 'sola fide' view as compared to the Christian views that look at faith and action, grace and law, as an integrated whole. This is one of the fundamental discussions within Reformation Christendom. Perhaps we can find a couple of those earlier threads and use them as a base if you really are interested in discussing the doctrinal issues at heart, and you are not seeking polemic and posturing. However the one oppo who was capable of the more sensible discussion on those issues is not posting currently. And discussions that are a facade, meant for accusation and propaganda rather than learning, really are not of a lot of interest. I do hope you understand. Afaik, you were not involved in those earlier discussions and likely have not reviewed them in any depth. I'll give you a quick example, many here understand the view of denominations and groups like the oneness churches or the anabaptist communities where in fact a more full-orbed view of Christian living is part of the doctrinal Bible base. Yet churches that preach holiness (including those in the denoms that support Mrs. Alvear) are often accused with great vitriol of adding to the word of God, of legalism (even cultism) of all the accusations that you make from your current perspective. And yes, they have some very sound Biblical replies to those accusations  . All that is where the dialog was left off in the past. Shalom, Praxaluh PS. One little technical note for DOwen Cheeseburger prohibition is actually not given directly in Tanach (OT) ordinances. The milk and meat prohibition is a rabbinical extrapolation from verses that talk of not seething a kid in its mother's milk. Many Bible folks consider this extrapolation as simply unwarranted. (Message edited by praxaluh on May 30, 2007) | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Posturing and propaganda, huh? The way I see this, it doesn't matter what the Bible says, because it gets in the way of what your church is saying. No different really from Catholicism or Church of Christ in method. I'm done wasting my time. Out. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Let's argue cowboy boots, pork chops, and cheeseburgers, shall we? Let's strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. It's called diversion- the same thing my employees do when they are in trouble. I have read everything I could find here and elsewhere on your group. The more I hear, the more convinced I am you are not an innocuous group, but full-fledged heretics. I wouldn't put Pat, Butch, and Stan in that grouping, but the leadership is no better than Pharisees. | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Majidh, I tried to relate to your doctrinal concerns earnestly. And I haven't had a lot of arguments about cowboy boots. Hmmm.. don't even own a pair. Your choice as to whether share or leave. Truly, it is difficult to have real substantive Bible discussions on this forum. The one oppo who used to try to do so no longer posts Best wishes in your journeys. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Still no answer to these original posts and challenges. I see nothing in past posts addressing these things. You say this is no place to have a discussion (debate really). Here's my challenge- At your Sunday meeting, I will debate you with one other person who chooses to do so with two of you. This is in front of your entire congregation. I leave soon, so I want it within two weeks. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
To Sum Up 1. HH is a closed, secretive society. a. Controlled by men. b. Fear and disenfranchisement are tools. 2. HH feels it is above answering for itself. a. Relies on platitudes and spirit-talk, rather than plain answers. b. Relies on extra-Biblical literature to shore up its beliefs. The literature is unavailable to the public. c. Feels it is picked on, persecuted, and has a seige mentality. 3. Ignores huge parts of the New Testament, in particular, the writings of Paul (judge not only what a preacher says, but listen to what he is NOT talking about). a. HH teachings are heretical. b. Believes it has a corner on truth. c. Denies the eternal security ,of the believer, which is effective in controlling behavior. 4. Control of people a. Controls meetings. b. Controls information. c. Controls visitors. d. Controls doctrine. e. Controls families. f. Controls clothing. g. Controls diet. h. Controls clothing and appearance. i. Removes choice, on pain of disenfranchisement. j. Controls healthcare. k. Controls child care. 5. Dwells in the Old Covenant and the Mosaic Law. 6. Denies the Trinity- opting for Biblical distortion of the personhood of God. 7. Refuses to answer questions. a. Gives cursory replies to select portions of challenges to its behavior. b. Relies on character assassination, mincing words, as well as "smoke and mirrors" to control criticism. c. Refuses to openly discuss beliefs, or Biblically defend beliefs, due to a feeling of superiority and special dispensation from God. d. Another gospel, with a de-emphasis of Christ at the cost of the community and their doctrine. e. Last and not least- denies the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. f. To conclude, it is a doctrine of demons. | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
majadh - "Here's my challenge..." (debate, demand, yada). Wow. Who in the world do you think you are and to whom are you talking ? majadh, do you know the phrase ... "a legend in your own mind". That is the sense I get from your post. Anyway .. why not share about your wonderful church and community and fellowship ? That might be edifying. Especially if you actually have the perfect doctrine and understanding your appear to profess. Oh, wait. You're in too much of a rush. Ok .. have a nice journey. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
You're quite the smug smartmouth. I always suspect anybody who is never wrong (you and the ministers of HH). You never admit to anything, don't feel you have to answer to anybody, much less the greater Christian church (you know, the church out there that doesn't quite get it). Pride grows in the human heart like lard on a pig. You are too proud to debate, and you sure wouldn't want the "sheeples" to hear it. I was in the shepherding movement once. When the shepherd decided that I had to disclose my income, and move where he moved, I knew he was full of it- like you are. | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 152.163.100.15 |
hey everyone , just had to respond to Majajh post a couple back the one with the scary list (wink) i would have to say your points are greatly scewed but just for discussions sake even if you are right you missed the most important point . which is HH is a voluntary asociation (means you dont have to be there , not to be sarcastic but the intelligence level in these blogs sometimes is lacking) i know this since my parents joined HH when i was 7 and i became a member when i was 18 then at 25 i decided to leave and not to be a part of HH if its such a cult as you say i wouldnt have been able to get away . as far as you wanting to debate the members of HH its not a great pride on there part ( in my eyes)it's that they will not debate you but they are not out to debate and prove anything there trying to be christians and follow the Bible which says to be kind to your enemies love those who hate you , turn the other cheek , be kind to those who mistreet you . so for them to show you up in a debate (which they would ) wouldnt be the kind thing to do or for them to rub your nose in the dirt isn't going to make you love the lord more . so before casting such a mountain of stones why dont you look at yourself and see why you want to put them down and try to ruin there comunity i think you may see the pride you speek of is in your heart . Adam | ||
| dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hey Adam, Thanks for the input. I find it fascinating to read posts like Maja's, because, to me, they are like getting a little peek into the mind of a dictator. Everything is their way or no way at all. You either agree with their summations, or you get smeared and ridiculed. I am sure Maja will take objection to me comparing him to a tyrant, but judging by his post's, that is what he is. He thinks that he knows the "real deal", and anyone else is following demonic doctrines. Not only is his position an arrogant one, it is a sad one, and IMHO, a worthless one. He is a member of the US Military (Hats off to him for that) which imposes strict dress codes, conduct codes etc etc, yet he criticizes HH for having dress codes. I call this hypocritical. He is a member of US society and culture, which dictates what is in style or not, yet he calls HH legalistic for doing the same. I call this hypocritical. In short, his view of doctrine is the only right view. His view of Scripture is the only correct one, and his intellect is so much higher than all those at HH, that he feels he must correct them as he sees fit. I call this kind of approach arrogant and worthless beyond description. For thousands of years men have argued and waged wars over religion. And for Maja to think that because of a few years of Bible college he can change all that is ludicrous and arrogant beyond belief. I hope he means well, and I am sure he really thinks he knows Christianity better than HH, or anybody who disagrees with him. I just wish he would try to see the bigger picture, and realize how foolish his mission to "set HH straight" really is. DOwen. | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.56.23 |
sigh. I can't say I agree with maja on everything, but DOwen, there is one thing about your post that I wanted to comment on... Yes, the military does enforce a dress code; while you are on duty. They do have rules; while you are on duty. When you're on leave, or off for the week end, etc you can wear what you want and go where you please. They do not control your personal life. They do not tell you what kinds of music to listen to, what to read, whether you should watch TV, etc. When you're on their time, you follow their rules just as I did as a waitress. I had to follow a dress code while on the clock. Some other rules included no swearing, no bracelets, one earing in each ear, only non-slip shoes, and a whole slew of other things, but the moment I walked out the door I could be myself again. Anyway, to say that maja is hypocritical because he follows a dress code at "work" but frowns on one that is required to be accepted as part of the "body of Christ" is not a good comparison. As for the whole tyrant thing, I see it everywhere here. Many are claiming their way, or no way, on both sides. Many seem to think they have the "real deal." I guess as long as human life exists someone will claim to be right, and the battles will rage on. Sad. | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, The whole "debate me, busters" thing to .. whomever .. is quite over the top. Speaking for myself, I have been wrong on doctrinal issues time and again, probably today too. And on some issues I simply dunno, Lord Jesus help me in the days ahead to learn your truth. And I'm really not big on debates. They seem to be designed more for politics more than learning. In fact, the person who 'wins' a debate can have the weakest arguments, they just know how to work an audience and have a good bag of cheap debating tricks. Often the format of debates is maximined for propaganda over substance. If majajh wants to debate or discuss things with the HH folks he can contact them directly. Clearly, and for good and solid and sensible reasons, they are not interested in participating in the factnet milieu. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
So you don't belong to the bunch, yet you speak for them? OK, I'll place nice- never mind the Bible passages which got in the way of those nice people's way of life. Quoting the Bible means somebody thinks he knows it all. Also, never mind ol' Apostle Paul, he's one of those hotheads that was telling the Galatians he wished the Judaizers would slip with the knife and whack their own parts off. He is such a dictatorial brute! And Jesus- what a temper! Calling those nice religious folks a brood of vipers! I'll tell ya, some people are so mean! Still heresy, still a cult. Signed, the egotistical know-it-all who quotes the Bible to the exception of extra-Biblical literature. | ||
| psalm2710 New member Username: psalm2710 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.152.254.205 |
Prax, Would you be willing to converse with me privately? I am not interested in getting into a great debate, but I have some questions that I really think you could shed some light on. My questions are more on a personal note and I am not comfortable sharing them here. | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.71 |
hey Daniel ,just sick of hearing all this made up trash about HH from people who are just trying to make themselves feel beter about there own lives and spirituality what are you saying Majajh that you belong on the same level with Jesus and the apostle Paul? or am i not getting what your trying to say? im a little confussed because it comes across to me that you believe your the one who is apointed to judge who is a brood of vipers and such! anyway just throwing my two cents in . adam | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Warm greetings adam and Psalm 2710, Psalm 2710, absolutely fine. Use my email that I will leave at bottom, and I can email you my phone number if that seems better. I've often shared that I wondered if some folks would use the net for edifying contact. There are a number of folks who I would really appreciate having some renewed contact. Respectful to one another with a good heart towards HH. And if I can share and listen on some stuff - I'll do my best :-) Grace and peace in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ .. Shalom, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Just answer the Bible. You are mad because you are being called out. Answer the Bible. Question- would HH have a fully accepted member who would read no other church literature but his Bible? | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
There is no doubt to me that ABH was in HH. He gave the kind of answer members sometimes get when they use their reasoning skills and have the nerve to question what is going on or what they have been taught. They are berated: what are you saying Majajh that you belong on the same level with Jesus and the apostle Paul? or am i not getting what your trying to say? im a little confussed because it comes across to me that you believe your the one who is apointed to judge who is a brood of vipers and such! This is a big deal to HH, because their Apostle Blair Adams IS considered to be on the same level. He has the same authority to dictate and to judge. He is God's appropriate channel of authority and all of, authority of Jesus is in the authority of the church. In HH they would be asking Majajh, "Do you think you are as anointed as Brother Blair?" This is intimidation accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. After awhile when you question in your mind, you answer in you mind, "I am not as anointed as Brother Blair, he is an Apostle." It the cult dynamic of "thought stopping." FH | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
When bozo asks if I'm on the level of Paul, he is, as the other NON-MEMBER DEFENDERS have done, avoiding the subject and diverting attention to something else. I'm fed up with you non-members of HH refusing to deal with the Bible. Paul was saved by grace only, and so am I. There, question answered. If I was saved by works I would be sunk. Hey buddy, I lived in the Old Testament- I was a Catholic. Every day I was scared for my salvation. God lived in the wafer of bread (the host), in a little gold box behind the altar. I had to keep the church rules and the law of Moses. I heard that if my righteousness didn't exceed that of the scribes and the pharisees I would not enter the kingdom of heaven. I am a grace believer now. Now, since you don't believe what you are saying, and put your words to action and join up with that outfit at HH, then bug off! | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
When bozo asks if I'm on the level of Paul, he is, as the other NON-MEMBER DEFENDERS have done, avoiding the subject and diverting attention to something else. You are right majajh. And I responded to their diversion to make another point entirely. Sorry for that. Back on topic: When I read Galatians and Colossians for the first time in years, (right before I left Homestead,) I thought, "How could I have been so dumb?" Even educated people, even Bible educated people, can be dumb when they want to be. I didn't want to see it. When I did, the shock threw me. It is a painful process to admit even to yourself, let alone my family and friends that I ignored something so obvious. Life was too busy and to complicated to think things through. Besides we were taught that is was like the Greeks to reason, (negative,) and we need to live by faith. We were taught not to trust ourselves. So we had faith that Brother Blair knew what he was doing. I had trained my mind, with the help of the teachings and doctrines in Homestead, not to think doubts through. I dismissed the scriptures that contradicted what I was taught. It brought peace to the conflict and confusion to just ignore them. Guys, quit ignoring doubts. Read Galatians and Colossians 2. Really deal with it. | ||
| dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Wow Maja, You are one obnoxious dude! Having a discussion with you is like trying to herd cats.... Who are you to tell anyone to "bug off"? Who are you to tell me or Adam or anyone else that we must believe like you or be labeled cultic and heretical? Who do you think you are man!!?? HH didn't invite you to critique them! HH has never come to your Church and told them what they are doing wrong! HH has never called your Church's doctrines demonic! Again, who do you think you are??!! | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.128.254.40 |
Wow, DOwen, you told him!! Now, how about dealing with the issues? If HH or any other group claims to be Christian or biblical, then every one of us has the right to examine their claims in the light of Scripture. If HH doesn't want to submit to that examination, then they should quit representing themselves as such. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Who are you to tell HH that they must submit to anything? And who are you to demand that if they don't follow your requirements they must do 'x'? Here is an idea, why don't you live your life, and let others live there's..... Ahhhh, but that would mean laying down your little hobby of gossiping and rumor mongering. | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.137.159.165 |
Ahhhh, but that would mean laying down your little hobby of gossiping and rumor mongering. Please cite one example of gossip or rumor-mongering in my posts. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has the responsibility to examine whether claims to Christianity and biblical practices are in line with the teaching of Scripture. Does HH claim to be Christian? Do they claim to function biblically? Yes or no? | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
saved by grace? what about faith without works is dead? hmm if you want to just quote scriptures that work for your circumtance do it with someone who doesn't know the bible ! hey dont lump me in some group that is alive only in your head that im berated to think as i do,im very much able to think as i will.much more than you are because i have made decisions in my life that don't bother me soo much that i have to go blame everyone else ! are you the only one in the world who is right? can i have an oppinion without you calling names? your great christianity has caused me to want to join your church...... NOT!!!! and i dont claim nor does Mr Adams to be on the same level as apostle paul thats just what ya'll claim !! if Mr Adams was looking for fame he could have had it along with money and a much bigger church !!! dont forget that he was a part of the UPC at one time ask the oldtimers he was the up and coming star of there church but he chose a different way one that was a humle path not one to rule lives he just wants to make a difference in people to help them to love one another . i know ya'll will just scoff and throw me under the bus thats fine i dont need your aproval for my life im just fine without ya'll its just dissapointing to see a group ofpeople like yourselves who want to see others fall!! ya'lls problem is you dont have Jesus in your heart you have Him in your head. adam aka bozo | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I received an e-mail today with someone commenting on the unchristian like tone of post here recently. They faulted both sides. I agree. It makes us angry when we see loved ones in bondage to decrees after Jesus came to set them free for freedom's sake. But we need to be careful that in our anger, we don't sin. "Be angry and sin not." If our anger is not walked out in the Spirit, it will most likely hurt someone, or at least be a stumbling block in their faith. Jesus was angry with the Pharisees, but in His love he also gave himself up for them and died for all men. The leaders who knowingly hold God's people in bondage will experience the vengeance of the Lord. It is His to dish out, not ours. I have been guilty of this myself. The sheep who have been misled need our patience and need to be shown the truth in love. God help us, because we can't do it on our own. Let the love of God and truth motivate and be the heart of our posts; and not our anger. Lord Help me and all of us to do better. Show us how you would have us to respond. Lord help us to be bold and confident in your Word, striving for truth, but still be meek and caring, not high minded. FH | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hey "bozo" (lol), I liked your last point most of all. "ya'lls problem is you dont have Jesus in your heart you have Him in your head." Folks like FH, OW, ML and company have Christianity all figured out, and if you don't fit into their cookie cutter, then you are a heretic and a worshipper of demons. I find that kind of attitude to be obnoxious and arrogant beyond description. Also, I agree with your point about Mr. Adams. He could have had a huge UPC Church to Pastor, and made plenty of money along with it. But then of course he would have been attacked here on FN for selling out Christianity for a buck, and he would have been lumped in with the Swaggarts, Bakkers and Hinns of the world. So, no matter what he does, he is an "evil cult leader", and subject to the FACTNet lemmings judgment and condemnation. The thing that all of us must realize is there will always be a certain faction of people who will find fault with everyone, no matter their position. These people spend hours straining at specks in their neighbors eye, in order to avoid dealing with the planks in their own. And 10 million posts on FN are not going to change that simple truth. It is useless arguing doctrine with them because no matter what you say they will pick it apart, spit on it, and call you a demon worshipper. However, please, share whatever you feel to share, I just wanted to warn you about the nature of the people you are dealing with. (I'm just sharing all this bozo to bozo....you know what I mean...lol) ************************************************** CommonSense, You said; I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has the responsibility to examine whether claims to Christianity and biblical practices are in line with the teaching of Scripture. Really? You must be one busy person! I understand, and appreciate, the idea of weighing every teaching against the Bible. I just wonder who appointed you to do so with HH. I also wonder how much you really know about HH. Perhaps you are like the guys at Watchman Fellowship who have judged HH from afar, without ever getting to know them and without ever even meeting face to face with those they call heretics. Are you the religion police? If so, then why do you so boldly display your bias when dealing with HH? If you are not a member of the religion squad, then why are you so concerned with HH? As to the rest of your post, what is it to you if they believe that God is a butterfly? So far, you are a nameless, faceless screen name trolling about in cyber space. I have no idea who you are or what you are like away from your computer. Most likely you are a decent person and a good citizen. In fact, I am quite sure you are. I just wish you could see how obnoxious it is for you to get online and claim that you are responsible for discerning who is a Christian and who is not. DOwen. | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.239.205.238 |
I just wish you could see how obnoxious it is for you to get online and claim that you are responsible for discerning who is a Christian and who is not. That would indeed be an obnoxious claim, and I apologize if I came across that way -- it was not my intent. You worded it better than I: I understand, and appreciate, the idea of weighing every teaching against the Bible. I have no personal first-hand knowledge of HH, and I have never been anything but open about that fact. After following this thread for awhile I did email HH and ask for literature and received one booklet (I don't have it with me or I would give you the title). I have also reviewed their websites. My interest in HH was intially piqued by some apparent similarities to the group in which I grew up. If you will review my posts from the beginning, I think you will see that I tried to be very even-handed and unbiased in my questions. I would submit that my "bias" surfaced only after repeatedly discovering that asking straightforward questions of HH defenders provoked everything but straightforward answers. Also, I have been very careful not to accuse or offer opinions on situations specific to HH since I have no personal experience with them. I believe I have been quite consistent in restricting my input to "weighing every teaching against the Bible." Unfortunately, there seems to be a general pattern to the postings on this thread: an "ex-HHer" presents their understanding of an HH teaching. An HH defender calls that person's integrity and spirituality and intelligence into question. The ex-HHers try to clarify and explain their understanding. The side-tracking and straw man tactics continue. All of this just serves to confirm the "bias." And leads me to this: why does it bother you so much that I ask a question or request a clarification or point out a fallacy now and then? After all, this discussion board IS open to anyone. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
That would indeed be an obnoxious claim, and I apologize if I came across that way -- it was not my intent. Okay, apology accepted, It's just that when you say things like; "I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who has the responsibility to examine whether claims to Christianity and biblical practices are in line with the teaching of Scripture." How else am I supposed to take a comment like that? Moving on, you said; "...there seems to be a general pattern to the postings on this thread: an "ex-HHer" presents their understanding of an HH teaching. An HH defender calls that person's integrity and spirituality and intelligence into question." Actually, just this morning, Maja called ABH's integrity, spirituality and intelligence into question. So that excuse for your behaviour is pretty much worthless. I have been attacked nonstop for my position, told to "shut up" (courtesy of Mrs. Alvear), and had my integrity called into question many many times. Bottom line, the burden of proof ALWAYS falls to the accuser, and the "proof" that the anti HH folks have presented is far from truth. To be fair, a statement that is ninety nine percent false still has one percent of truth to it. So what do you want me to do? Focus on the one percent, or call it into question because of those other ninety nine pesky falsehoods. If you are sincere, then you must be at a crossroad, so what say you? Crucify HH or love them? Anyone who truly loved his brother wouldn't treat them the way that FH and her crew treat HH. There is a great divide separating the simple stating of a difference, and spending years on FN doing what FH and her gang have done. Just my opinion, and now I am done for the weekend, see you next week. God Bless, Daniel. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Correction. When I said, "So that excuse for your behaviour is pretty much worthless." I should have said, "That line of reasoning/justification/observation is pretty much worthless. CS didn't use that observation as an excuse for anything, and I don't mean to accuse her of that. DO. | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
If appearing obnoxious is what it takes to get you to stay on subject and pin you down on issues, fine. Remember, this isn't an HH website. The Scriptures above are not isolated. You won't even touch them. Why don't you belong to HH if you are arguing for them? I do not care if you are offended. I'm not going to pussyfoot around and be afraid of offending you. You refuse to answer the challenges- esp. Prax, who snakes his way around the issues. If you want to proclaim another gospel, you are snakes. Question- do the wolves know they are wolves? "Faith without works is dead." Faith with your own good works EARNS salvation is what you are trying to say. Prove it! Homestead Heritage preaches another gospel. It is a gospel made up by men. Here you are, non-members, arguing for them. If you believe it, go join them. Good job trying to make those verses out to be me forcing MY beliefs on you. Wrong! I didn't make this stuff up. Bottom line, if you won't address the issue, I'll force the point. I'm not going to play the cast of the Warner Bro's. cartoon, "Chip and Dale", where we play artificial politeness. Discussing this with you non-members is only of limited value. Now I'm going to consider whether to talk to Butch personally, though I don't expect it will do any good. | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Crucify HH or love them? You are killing me, lol. Jesus was crucified, and you are comparing our talking about Homestead to that. The persecution complex is running deep. By the way, some of the Jewish community didn't appreciate Homestead comparing what we are doing to Homestead Heritage to what happened to the Jews either. Crucify??? Take off you HH shades and see what you are saying. Repeating their rhetoric is making you look like a fool. For someone who was raised in HH the rhetoric is normal and accepted. To outsiders it is foolish. The last article was the best. The rhetoric and spin was obvious, as was the persecution complex. Have a great day DO. I still love you. FH http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=230718#POST230718 | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
}6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10For am I now (T)seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. }21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
This in indisputable- Homestead Heritage beliefs are not out there for the inquiring to see. Hidden beliefs, hidden lifestyle, hidden meetings, hidden agenda. The Bible is not the only book for the believer, you have to have extra-Biblical literature to put you on the right path. This reminds me of Mary Baker Eddy's You are held in derision if you question the validity of the community, yet you cannot go to their meetings, cannot see their literature, cannot get an answer to beliefs, cannot argue Scripture. Question- how can this NOT be a cult? Because they are nice people? Hogwash! | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Should have added, "Mary Baker Eddy's book, Science and Health". | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Maja, Why would HH want to argue Scripture with you? You have already made it clear where you stand, and you obviously think you know all you need to about them. Case closed. It is a free Country isn't it? Or are you the hall monitor for all of Christianity? Why don't you quit taking childish stabs at people, come down off your pedestal and actually love your neighbor, instead of constantly picking fights with him. Why not try laying down your arrogance and obnoxiousness...? It's not hard. You spoke of several HH members that you hold in high regard, how do you think it makes them feel to read the garbage you post here? Do you even care? | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Funny, they aren't allowed by their masters to read these posts. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Dowen and Prax, I'll make you a deal. If you agree never to post again, I will never post again. Maybe somebody else that you call an "oppo" will agree too, so that will make four of us who will never post again? | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.138.190.247 |
DOwen, Not sure what you meant, then didn't mean, by my "behavior", but let me make this clear: I don't agree with or condone everything that has been posted by anyone who is an "ex-HHer", neither do I disagree with or dispute everything that has been posted by anyone in defense of HH. I also don't feel obligated to state my opinion of every posting. What I DO take issue with is when I or anyone else asks for direct answers to direct questions, and often the responses are inflammatory, misleading, character-assasinating, side-tracking diatribes. Either answer the question or refuse to answer, both are legitimate responses. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Funny, they aren't allowed by their masters to read these posts. This is the arrogance I have been speaking about all along. Comments like this show Maja's true color to be yellow. He knows that his words are vicious lies, yet he spouts them anyway. An exchange with a fellow like him is worthless. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
I asked you a question- are you willing to quit? I guess the Bible is full of vicious lies. Prove I'm lying. You've lost since you absolutely refuse to answer the Bible, and you refuse to join Homestead Heritage. You can call me yellow, liar, etc. I don't give a pitootie. I'm addressing my posts to those who are in HH, or thinking of joining HH. Show me how I'm a liar, Mr. Smokescreen. So, do you agree to quit posting if I quit? | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
I'm going to make this real simple- one point at a time. See if you can track and answer simple questions. 1. Can a person become a full member of Homestead Heritage if they will not read anything but the Bible? | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
I am neither in HH, nor thinking about joining. Yet you have addressed several posts to me. If you don't give a "pitootie", then why do you want me to show you your treachery? I have no desire to engage in a discussion with you because you have shown yourself to be an arrogant, self righteous know-it-all. Life is too short to waste it arguing with your type of rabble rouser. Besides, who are you to come swaggering into FN and demand anything of anyone? I will point out and illustrate fabrications and nonsense when I see it, but I have never demanded for anyone to shut up or stop posting. You have proven to be nothing more than an pathetic odd brand of internet tough guy, and as such, I have already wasted too much time on you. Good day, DOwen. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
OK, somebody out there that is willing to answer the question? Little feller here is too good to answer simple questions. You know why? You have a lot to hide, don't you? | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Dude, there you go again with the foul attitude. Do you know of a Church that DOES NOT require at least some sort of extra-Biblical studying? FH and her cohorts love to accuse HH of not telling them the "real deal" before they joined, and now you are coming down on HH for possibly wanting prospective members to read HH literature...before joining. I call this intellectual dishonesty. I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy and double speak of the HH attackers. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Former members- could you have belonged in full status to HH and be allowed to have only read the Bible, and only follow what you see in the Bible? | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.62.181 |
No, I could not have. New literature was always coming out, and with it, tests that must be completed and returned. Their papers and books helped me to "see" a lot of things in the Bible. Things I no longer saw once I decided to read the Bible with an open mind and not let anyone (a church, my parents, friends, etc) tell me what they thought it meant. I'm not against reading books and literature. I enjoy many different authors. But, I will never again follow only one author/denomination's views and fail to read/consider others! I think this is where it is easy to go wrong. Closing one's mind to the fact that someone else could be right not only feeds one's pride that he/she "has it" but also prevents the Holy Spirit from using someone else's thoughts to guide you. Some of the authors I have enjoyed, and who have helped me, since leaving HH are: Dudley Hall Bob George Sheila Walsh Kay Arthur Tommy Tenney Max Lucado Steve McVey Joel Brueseke I can't say I agree wholeheartedly with any of these people, but I thank God for using them to show me His Grace and outrageous love! | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Thank you for the answer. I have never belonged to a church after the Catholic Church that required reading their literature. Not Baptist, Nazarene, charismatic, cowboy, Evangelical Presbyterian, or chapel. Tests?! | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Simple question no. 2: How is one saved (belief of HH leaders)? a. By the sacrifice of Christ alone. b. By the keeping of the Law of Moses. c. A mixture of a and b. | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Simple question no. 2: How is one saved (belief of HH leaders)? a. By the sacrifice of Christ alone. b. By the keeping of the Law of Moses. c. A mixture of a and b. None of the above. I would tell you, but Prax and DO would just say I am lying, so I will let them tell you. Go on guys: According to Homestead Heritage doctrine what are all the requirements for the salvation of a Homestead Heritage member? FH | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I have never belonged to a church after the Catholic Church that required reading their literature. Not Baptist, Nazarene, charismatic, cowboy, Evangelical Presbyterian, or chapel. Me either. Not Evangelical, Baptist, Christian, Pentecostal, or two independents. Homestead Heritage was the only one. None of them required us to accept their interpretation of the Bible either, except Homestead Heritage. Preachers at the other churches encourage us to read along in our own Bibles and give scripture references. Homestead was also the only Church that I was told NOT to open my Bible and follow along with the preacher. I was told the sound of flipping pages was annoying to Blair Adams and that it showed a lack of trust. I was told this by my group leader right before my first Sunday meeting. Later I was told not to take notes. They often preached from the literature on Sundays. Two of the leaders would carry extra, extra, extra large book cases full up to the front with them each Sunday, leaning sideways from the weight. My current pastor, and a few others, say never just accept what he says at the pulpit. We are encouraged to first check the Bible to see if it is true. Not so in Homestead. FH | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, A lot of posturing and very little substance going on. However, one interesting question though about 'following along' in the Bible during reading. I have always been a bit uneasy, or at least questioning, about how that is done, eg. in the churches Pentecostal, Messianic, Baptist etc. And I would presume the underlying issue of concern isn't the sound of pages moving but a type of inattention while 100 or a few hundreds people are finding the book, the chapter, the page, the verse, the words. (And largely distracted from the exegesis.) Then the same thing can happen 15 seconds later when reading from a different section. Now, please don't misunderstand. I can see a good case for a Bible reading being followed by all in a fellowship, especially if it is of length in a section. And I really have not asked any friends about current HH praxis in this regard. I simply appreciated that a significant congregational question was brought to the fore. You can sometimes get a good discussion or consideration of an issue here - after removing the anti-HH tinge of how things are generally presented. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Still waiting for an answer on how one is saved, but not getting the answer. Me, it's by grace alone- is that obvious? | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
a type of inattention while 100 or a few hundreds people are finding the book, the chapter, the page, the verse, the words. Most of the preachers I have seen wait until we get there in our Bible. I have even seen the preachers give the page number for the KJ Bibles provided in the pew. This waiting is not a problem if the preacher isn't jumping all over the place pasting scriptures together in order to make his points appear Biblical. Speaking of points: According to Homestead Heritage doctrine what are all the requirements for the salvation of a Homestead Heritage member? FH | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.62.181 |
Unless the church has power point with the scriptures playing where I can read them I like to follow along because I don't learn well by listening!!! In fact, I don't learn at all by listening alone, thus my dislike for radio talk shows... lol Anyway, I never found reading along to be a problem. Most of the places I've been the preachers have given everyone a moment or so to find the passage before they started reading. Other places I've just taken notes so I could go back and read what I didn't catch from listening. No matter where you go I think it is important to know what you believe, to check what the teach/preacher says against the Word of God, and to always study further if you feel something just isn't right. | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.62.181 |
I'm not sure I can answer exactly how HH believes one is saved, because I could never quite figure that out myself! I never remember people making a public profession of faith, or anyone praising the Lord because brother or sister so and so had just been saved, or given their life to the Lord. There was however, a big deal made when someone spoke in tounges for the first time. They do believe the speaking of tounges is a necessary part of the salvation process. I remember quite well the people praying loudly and for long periods of time over one another, especially those who had not yet "prayed through to the Holy Ghost." If you didn't "get it" one week they'd try again the next. But, the "praying through to the Holy Ghost" was not enough. There was always more. More "praying through" for other areas of your life, more works to be done to prove one's loyalty, more attitudes you needed to work on, and more things you needed to discuss with your group leaders. I'm not saying I don't believe in confessing our sins to one another, but there are times I feel like something is between me and God. And once I have repented to Him of that wrong attitude (or whatever the problem) I know He has forgiven me and though I may not be free from the vice immediately I trust that He who began a good work in me will also complete that which He started. If I feel God leading me to bring Him glory by sharing about this victory He has given me, then I will. Otherwise neither I, or anyone else, will benefit from me sharing it. In HH I felt very pressured to share every thought, doubt, and struggle. I felt that if I didn't share them I was in rebellion. When in meetings I felt great pressure in all areas. I knew if I wasn't clapping or singing along, or raising my hands when everyone else was, a brother or sister, or even my parents, would be coming to me, in front of everyone, to ask why I wasn't entering in. Is there no place for an individual to sit quietly and let God speak, to meditate on His Word, while others may be praying or singing? I do believe in good works, but quite differently now than I did in HH. I'm a Grace believer. I know of a certainty that I am saved by Grace alone! I know that Christ fulfilled the law and completed the work of sacrifice needed to cover my transgressions. I'm entirely free in Him. I've heard every argument about Grace being a free pass to sin. I don't agree. I think that when people truly understand what Christ did and the love that He has for us, the natural response to that love and grace is good works. The gratefulness if our hearts shows in the love we give back. It is not a hard thing one must keep striving and trying at, but rather a deep love that flows so strong that we can't help but honor Him. I've been a part of the one-saved always-saved churches. I've seen many claim they are Sons, but whose lives show no fruit of gratefulness. They come to church every Sunday, they try hard not to cuss and swear, they witness door-to-door, but the world doesn't look at them and see a life overflowing with the joy of the Lord. They do not want what the person claims to have. When one works because he has to to earn salvation instead of because his heart is so full of gratitude that he can't help it, the difference is startling! | ||
| missionary_lady Junior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.58.17 |
Since they believe in levels and only 2 or 3 has made it to the hightest level maybe that is all that are saved? I personally was told NOT to follow along when they read scriptures...and not to take notes. We encourage our people to read along with us and by all means to take notes. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
"A lot of posturing and very little substance going on." Bull honky. The lack of substance is in your posts. All they amount to is the equivalent of, "Lay off you mean people and liars". I would rather hang out with three teenagers I know: Muslim Turk kid from Germany, a Dutch atheist, and an American atheist kid. All loved the cowboy church. I'd rather hang with them than with somebody who argues for something they don't think worth joining themselves. So, the bottom line is confusion about how one is saved. Sounds downright Catholic to me. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Simple question no. 3: Does HH consider evangelical Christians to be saved and equal in spiritual stature to themselves? | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
Majajh, Why is stature or status such a big thing to you? At HH it's not important who has spiritual stature as you say it . Do you remember in the Bible when this same question was asked? and what Jesus responded? the greatest shall be least and the least greatest!! To be fare to you though i will answer your question, HH is not concerned of spiritual competition between the churches. ABH | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Yes or no? That's not an answer. | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 205.188.116.74 |
wow are you dense! it's not a yes or no answer it's like asking "when did you start beating your wife"? ant way i answer either yes or no you can claim an incongruity with their beliefs . the answer is they don't judge others!!!! it's not what they are trying to do to them it's not of importance of who is higher on the spiritual food chain so to speak. your questions are not sincere and honest your like a greasy lawyer trying to pin anything you can on them! adam | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
You're a greased pig. I can't get ahold of you to answer the question. Just like a cult to evade simple questions. You still haven't answered. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Maja, Who said; "The bantering and quibbling is getting nowhere." ??? Yet here you are, calling folks bozos and greased pigs. Perhaps you should follow your own advice for a change. DOwen. P.S. Adam is correct. Your "simple" question is loaded, and NO Church would EVER respond to it with a yes or no. Other than possibly your Church of course, which is perfect in every fashion. DO | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Do and Prax, One honest and basic question has been asked over and over and always skirted around by the supporters. We "opps" have answered it and it was neither refuted nor affirmed by you. It would be nice to hear it in your words. Adam, your view would be appreciated also. *According to Homestead Heritage doctrine what are all the requirements, (or even just the main ones,) for the salvation of a Homestead Heritage member? | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Foreverhis, they do not answer because they know the answers, but do not want to say so. It is the same tactic used by the liberal politicians. Let them be judged by the Law. They run in fear from the Scripture, so they do not address it: 8"And God, (U)who knows the heart, testified to them (V)giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and (W)He made no distinction between us and them, (X)cleansing their hearts by faith. 10"Now therefore why do you (Y)put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which (Z)neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11"But we believe that we are saved through (AA)the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." 12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were (AB)relating what (AC)signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. James's Judgment 13After they had stopped speaking, (AD)James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14"(AE)Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15"With this the words of (AF)the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16'(AG)AFTER THESE THINGS (AH)I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17(AI)SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES (AJ)WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18(AK)SAYS THE LORD, WHO (AL)MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19"Therefore it is (AM)my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.126.228.140 |
Do you know of a Church that DOES NOT require at least some sort of extra-Biblical studying? Your "simple" question is loaded, and NO Church would EVER respond to it with a yes or no. This is the arrogance I have been speaking about all along. Comments like this show ???'s true color to be yellow. He knows that his words are vicious lies, yet he spouts them anyway. An exchange with a fellow like him is worthless. (Just decided to juxtapose these comments for the fun of it. Maybe we can start a game of "Guess Who Said It?"  ) | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Lots of verbs, lots of adjectives, but no substance. Why is there no substance to the heretic posts? Because they CAN'T tell you what is believed by the group they support, but will not belong to. They can't because to tell the public would impune the religious community of Homestead Heritage, or, they don't know what is taught. Homestead Heritage will not tell you what they believe. You cannot go to their meetings without an invitation. Sure doesn't sound like the gospel, now does it? This is why I am asking simple questions- it is the only way to pin them down for an answer. What do I get? Guilt trips! | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
Lots of verbs, lots of adjectives, but no substance. Why is there no substance to the heretic posts? Because they CAN'T tell you what is believed by the group they support, but will not belong to. They can't because to tell the public would impune the religious community of Homestead Heritage, or, they don't know what is taught. Homestead Heritage will not tell you what they believe. You cannot go to their meetings without an invitation. Sure doesn't sound like the gospel, now does it? This is why I am asking simple questions- it is the only way to pin them down for an answer. What do I get? Guilt trips! | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
You are not asking "simple questions" Maja. You are asking loaded questions, hoping someone will address them poorly and give you one more bucket of slop to toss at HH. So, again, I ask you. WHO made you the grand arbiter of Christianity? Perhaps when you answer that, with integrity, someone will deal with your foolish and empty questions. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Oh, "CommonSense", You reveal your bias by leaving out all of Maja's obnoxious one liners and idiotic judgments of HH. DOwen. | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.125.174.86 |
Oh, DOwen, If you will recall, I both acknowledged and explained my "bias." As for Majajh's "idiotic judgments of HH," I left them out because I have no personal experience with HH and thus no basis for defending or refuting them though your and others non-substantive and evasive "answers" tend to confirm those judgments (as I also explained earlier). I DO have experience with other churches, though, and YOUR "idiotic judgments" of them are completely off-base. What must I do to be saved? How is this a "loaded" question? | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
No church will answer the questions? Crud son, have you never gone to another church?! Yeah they do! Because HH is heretical, nobody dares answer the questions. What Homestead Heritage does is done under cover of darkness, or else it would be clear. Where is their doctrinal statement that other churches have? Dowen, Prax, and Adam believe in something they will not give their lives to. Go make the covenant fella. I am going to act on this information. I've contacted 60 Minutes, written a letter to a person at HH, and will contact Fox News and MSNBC. I also contacted the TX Board of Nurse Examiners. We'll see if anyone is interested in yet another Waco-area cult? | ||
| praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, To a large extent I do believe that majajd represents the real attitude and spirit of many or most of the oppos here. Just a bit less veiled. As for the forum here, his posts have a Gresham's Law type of result. However since so many of the 'good' posts here are really thinly-disguised vitriol wrapped in distortion and false accusation .. that might be a good result. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Maja, The major News outlets are to busy with President Bush and Paris Hilton to deal with something like HH. (Wow, I can't believe I got those two in the same sentence  ) | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Also, I hate to burst your bubble, but few people really care about HH. Aside from self appointed arbiters of right and wrong, such as yourself, that is. Get a life dude! DOwen. | ||
| majajh Junior Member Username: majajh Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 |
I have a life, but I make sure I save some time for you ol' buddy! BTW, how 'bout that Paris? Anyway, it would make a good rainy day story, what with the location near Waco and all. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 |
Oh, this is just too rich! Geographical proximity to a decade old event should now be a factor in news stories. Sheesh. Besides, do you really think the media is going to care about HH when all day today Drudge's headline has been pictures of Paris crying and being hauled back to jail?? Oh, and we all know that 60 Minutes is THE place to go for journalistic integrity. Just ask President Bush. DOwen. | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.62.181 |
ok. If someone asked anyone from my church what we believed a person must do to be saved the church member would gladly answer! Often when visiting a church one will ask such questions to see if the church's beliefs line up with theirs. There is no reason not to answer. So what if they already know the answer, or their questions are "loaded"? Maybe others reading this don't. Maybe some are thinking of joining HH and really want a straight answer. If HH's doctrine and ideas about salvation are correct there is nothing to fear. God doesn't need you guys to protect Him! If it isn't correct people have a right to know. And I'm not asking any of you to say if it's correct or not. That is up to each individual to decide. But how can they, if it is not told to them? I'm sure many here would have problems with the "plan of salvation" as understood by other denominations other than their own. In any other place the discussion of such would be considered healthy. I have friends who go to many churches and we discuss and disagree on the different views all the time. One thing I have found to be true: God's truth is strong. It doesn't need us to defend it! It has survived thousands of years, through wars, communist reign, Islamic rule, being thrown out of public schools, and much more. So go ahead and tell us. No manner of argument or "degrading" is going to darken the Light! | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
HH is scared to death of the media. And scared of being compared to the Dividians. If presented in an interesting form it would attract attention. Worth some effort............ | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Exactly, and I know how to write. I got called this week by Wall Street Journal online about an article that was in progress. I contacted Texas Monthly and all the major TX city newspapers too. Maybe one or two will be interested. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 45 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
"HH is scared to death of the media." Can you prove this? "And scared of being compared to the Dividians". Again, can you prove this? Or are you possibly just spouting off opinion and assumptions. Unless you can prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is unwise to present it as fact. Just sayin'. DOwen. | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Why does it need proving? | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 75.31.160.189 |
Do you know of a Church that DOES NOT require at least some sort of extra-Biblical studying? Can you prove this? Your "simple" question is loaded, and NO Church would EVER respond to it with a yes or no. Again, can you prove this? Or are you possibly just spouting off opinion and assumptions. Unless you can prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is unwise to present it as fact. Just sayin'. | ||
| dowen Junior Member Username: dowen Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Wow, you guys are fast...lol. No Church I have ever visited or heard of, did not require at least some sort of extra-Biblical studying. Perhaps there is a Church out there that is different...I just haven't found it. Maja's question WAS loaded. No proof needed. Now, it's your turn. Prove that HH is scared to death of the media. Prove that HH would kick anyone off their land if they knew you had posted on FN. Prove that HH is afraid of being compared to the Davidians. Either prove it, or lie in your self made bed of treachery. DOwen. | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Lie in a bed of treachery. Listen fella, some may not like "the tone" here, but I know something about war. You fight wars to win. Paul said if somebody is preaching another gospel, let him be accursed. The people preaching the man-made gospel at Homestead Heritage are accursed. I have NEVER belonged to a church, outside of Catholicism that required their literature, or heck, even had their own literature. Answer the Bible. You haven't discussed it even once. Loaded questions- you are a coward, and so are the leaders hiding behind the fences at HH. Come out of the dark and answer. You won't though, because HH does not believe in the plain truth of the Bible. | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.125.137.6 |
Why don't you list all the churches you have visited or heard of that require extra-Biblical studying? It must be a pretty extensive group for you to make such a blanket statement! I don't doubt they are out there, it just indicates to me that if they're all you've found, you are quite drawn to cultish, closed, authoritarian, spiritually elitist groups. Maja's question WAS loaded. No proof needed. So, I ask again, was it a loaded question when asked in Scripture? And did the person asking get a straightforward answer, or not? | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 152.163.100.15 |
oink..oink...oink yep it's me the greased pig lol!! majajh you really don't want answers if you did you would accept what i tried to explain to you . the problem is i don't think you can understand HH doctrine because your pesimistic and you don't believe anyone could really live like they do with no self serving motivation. thats what you fail to grasp . they are not trying to be anything popular they are just trying to live a simple fullfilled life and it bothers you because you doubt everyone . i know its hard to believe in selflessness but thats HH main doctrine . just like Jesus taught to love one another , putting others first ,caring about your fellow man . it's not that hard to grasp if you have a open heart but since you do not , its like a different language to you . Adam | ||
| abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 152.163.100.15 |
btw i guess if a donkey spoke in the bible maybe a pig has something to say too abh | ||
| usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.55.0.48 |
abh, I don't remember who labeled you a "greased pig" but I must say I appreciate your good humor in not taking offense. The last two posts actually made me smile. | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
abh, "Selflessness". That is a key word. And it not to be confused with unselfishness, because it is more than that. "they are not trying to be anything popular they are just trying to live a simple fullfilled life... i know its hard to believe in selflessness but thats HH's main doctrine." If by selflessness, you mean the giving up your personal identity, freedoms, and conscience for the identity of the group and group unity, ("oneness",) as a means to "know God," (Which in Homestead is equivalent to Salvation,) then I agree. Selflessness is Homestead Heritage's main doctrine. Can you please explain what "God's 'tangible' authority" in Homestead Heritage has to do with creating "oneness" with God, each other, and Creation; if anything? Thank you. FH | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
"you don't believe anyone could really live like they do with no self serving motivation." If they are are living like they do to obtain " 'Oneness' with God, each other and creation," (which in Homestead is "knowing God" and Salvation,) then I would think their motivation is at least partially self serving. It might not be their motivation when they join, but if they come to believe what is taught by Adams in the literature, then the hope of securing their salvation is likely to have some motivation is it not? Sorry, I have asked more than one question. If you are short on time, I would appreciate if you answer the on about "God's 'Tangible' Authority" first. It is also a main doctrine at Homestead. Thanks again. | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 48 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
(The underlining and bold text were done by me, FH, and not part of the original.) Seflessness: Garden of God “A God-centered culture, then, is one that encourages the individual to conform himself to the image of God; this is because the corporate image of the community that rests upon that culture is conformed to the image of God. This image is the image of covenant; for covenant expresses God’s nature---His faithful, eternal love—and thus true godly culture is the culture of covenant. God’s law-Word, which expresses the terms of His Covenant, conforms us to a particular order of relationships, a way of life, a way of seeing, believing and behaving; and from that order, life style and vision—that is, from our conformance to the covenant’s terms—is formed the corporate image that God has ordained for his community. We, in turn, enter into oneness with God by conforming ourselves to the image that He has ordained for us, both as individuals and as a community. Only by conforming our lives in every area to the pattern and way of life ordained by God can we enter into true oneness with our fellowman, with nature and with God Himself, for only this God-ordained culture fully expressed His covenant. And only through His covenant can we know Him. With His Word sown within us, and with us planted in His covenant community and culture, we can become once again the garden of God. We can grow into oneness with the God who is love. And this oneness with Him, as we know, is our salvation.” | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Boy, that "Garden of God" is wierd talk. It sounds like the ramblings of someone in their manic phase of bipolar disorder. Greased pig- ever try to get hold of a greased pig or a slimy fish? Good luck! Plain speech please. Direct answers. Now, as far as the allegation of pessimism: Everyone wants a utopia, but it is a pipe dream. At one time I considered joining the Amish because I wanted to protect my kids and I love to grow stuff, being from an agrarian background. I talked to Butch years ago with what was up with the farming with horses? Well, he said it was for economics and fun. I viewed Brazos de Dios with curiosity, and no ill will. I did consider it eccentric to try to leave the world. However, when I read Wheeler saying in the paper that some group claimed it had more light than any other place he knew, the red flags were up and screaming! I then read every Waco Tribune post and article. I quizzed visitors in my home group who had been there. I recalled the odd "affect" (facial expression, or lack thereof) of an old friend I talked to. I read every post I could on this site. You know what? Prax, Dowen, and the other supporters utterly lost the debates on this website. I saw name-calling without substantive Biblical answers to the challenges of the supposed lies of the people who left. Gee, they just created some duzy stories, didn't they? They were told they couldn't "cut it". Well, I'd like to see HH people cut military life, if we're on the topic of who is weak. Now I can predict to you what will happen to this post. Some minor, insignificant point will get tackled, while the rest of the subject matter is tossed out. Also, the Bible will be ignored. If I quote Bible passages, I'm accused of picking verses here and there. I have profited from this though- I see grace splattered all over the New Testament, and The Law being replaced by the New Covenant. Homestead Heritage doctrine does not measure up to the New Testament. Since THE ORGANIZATION AND MEN are held as high of esteem as the Word of God, I promise you this, I will fight tooth and toenail for the truth, and I will be merciless toward anyone snookering people with bondage. Who do I think I am? A person who feels compelled to speak up. | ||
| praxaluh Junior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Ahh .. returning to a thread after a day or more .. Such a contrast between the sharing of HH, expressing the love of God and the Biblical sense of Christian fellowship and community .. And the confused ramblings of majidh and his supporters (including foreverhis) in any possible vicious attack and distortion against HH, any possible action to attack true Christian community. (Christian community is such a threat to lives in cloistered rebellion, and to those ensnared in so many ways.) The contrast, albeit accidental, may even be providential. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Yeah, and when we viciously (from the bad guys' viewpoint) attack the Taliban and extremists in Iraq and Afghanistan, we're doing evil by executing our mission with the resources made available to us? Dang son, you'd better join up at HH before they all get beamed up, and you're left here with us bad types! | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
I forgot to add- I've been in war, and I hate it. War is ugly, war is horrible, war wrecks things, nations, beauty, and people. However, the United States fights wars when we have to, because to let evil prevail is worse than warfare. This is warfare, and yes, it is ugly. I accept that. You do not accept that. This spiritual war, with its mortal soldiers, requires a willingness to fight for the truth. You think you are with the truth, and I don't think you are. Don't cry that the war gets ugly. | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.125.133.187 |
Prax, Seems like we went 'round and 'round about this "true Christian community" idea before. It segued into the concept of "spiritual authority" and ended with this question never being answered by you: Does a "spiritual authority" in human form have final say when it is in conflict with an individual's personal conviction by the Holy Spirit on a specific issue? So, when you say things like "Christian community is such a threat to lives in cloistered rebellion", one wonders whether your concept of "rebellion" is refusing to listen to a man's dictates and instead choosing to walk in the light of the Holy Spirit . If that is the case, count me as rebellious! And, if your concept of "true Christian community" is uniformity and conformity to extra-biblical "patterns" established by man, then you are indeed ensnared by the wiles of the devil. | ||
| praxaluh Junior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Yes, we did discuss Christian community in some superficial depth. And the oppos offered the idea that Christian community doesn't really have any place in their lives, simply live in a mountain town in Appalachia and everything is hunky-dory. After all there is a soup kitchen or two and there are some ecumenical friendships and activities. That all deeper attempts at Christian discipleship and eldership and ministry community should really be only a facade, for show, they really should not *function* in the Biblical manner of the authority of a five-fold ministry which helps bring forth the day-to-day closeness and sharing and concern and love and Godly patterns that is the culture of HH. And I have no objection to someone leaving a Christian community based on personal conviction of Biblical patterns. (There are some attempts at community that are written about on Factnet where that would likely be a common or almost necessary occurrence .. perhaps even yours of earlier days.) Such a person would likely be actively seeking to find the place and community where God is moving in a more balanced way. To be placed in deep and full relationship. And they would be examining the motives of their own heart daily. It is very easy for us to put on a veneer of self-righteousness rather than seek to have God to dig deep and uproot our own pride and arrogance. And in the situation of pride it is common to try to impose a doctrinal justification as a rationale for questionable actions. At any rate a person sincerely taking such an action to leave (or not join closely) expressing personal conviction would never instigate the acrimonious actions of the oppos here. In fact they would be aghast at the attempts to tear down, and the convoluted accusations and the blase attitude toward speaking terrible untruths for the inquisition. It is the actions and expressions and lack of fairness and balance of the oppos here that are why I am concerned about hearts in rebellion. Remember, Common_Sense, you really are observing from a distance. And superimposing some experiences you had in an unknown elsewhere upon your view of HH. I don't begrudge you trying to make comparisons but unless and until you really make some effort to really examine yourself (e.g. simply go to a fair or have a time of visiting and seek some warm discussions with folks in friendship, and ask questions and pour out your heart and history and concerns) you really have a limited insight into HH. In this milieu here you are only being buffeted and poisoned by the waves of animus and vitriol that is the sea of the Factnet/Watchman oppo crew. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on June 10, 2007) | ||
| majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 |
Prax, pray, what Christian community are you in? What do you think about the concept of salvation by grace alone? You've never touched it. The beloved community you don't belong to is all you talk about protecting. | ||
| common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 75.31.164.23 |
Remember, Common_Sense, you really are observing from a distance. As are you, btw. You and DOwen are no more living HH than I am! And the oppos offered the idea that Christian community doesn't really have any place in their lives Not true -- go back and read more carefully. We offered the idea that being a part of the Body of Christ and walking in the unity of the Spirit IS true Christian community. You offered a completely unjust and inaccurate perception of my beliefs about Christian ministry. But again, you come back to authority. I submit that God does NOT institute any human spiritual authority that OVERRULES the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. Agree or disagree? | ||
| foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 50 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
And please answer this question after CS's question: Is the community covenant Blair Adams writes about in 'Garden of God" THE New Covenant or an additional covenant? | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 51 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
"actively seeking to find the place and community where God is moving in a more balanced way." You have got to be kidding or dreaming. There is nothing balanced about the leadership of a man who can not be examined by anyone and who answers to no one. Blair or one of his co-authors said, in a community, one view must ultimately prevail, and that that authority belongs to the originator of that community. (Garden of God) Balanced? | ||
| foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 52 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Bumped for prax Prax, I see you have been to FactNet and gone this mornning. When you come back prety please answer these simple questions. DO and ABH feel free to jump in please. I, (CS,) submit that God does NOT institute any human spiritual authority that OVERRULES the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. Agree or disagree? Is the community covenant Blair Adams writes about in 'Garden of God" THE New Covenant or an additional covenant? Thanks, FH | ||
| majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.182.15.245 |
Gospel of Homestead Heritage: "We are the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father but by us". | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Luke 19:2-10 And, behold, [there was] a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way]. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, that He was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, this day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
If one claims to be Jesus in the flesh today one should follow the examples Jesus provided while He walked the earth. | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. | ||
| h75 New member Username: h75 Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. | ||
| missionary_lady Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 94 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
HH plays no part in eternal salvation Jesus Christ and Him alone bought our salvation |
