| Author | Message | ||
     stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.13.127.128 |
Here's the policy statement from Exodus International website: http://exodus.to/content/view/34/57/ I attended an Exodus International conference a few years back, and actively attended meetings in one of Exodus's affiliated ministries: New Direction. My main concern about the above-mentioned ministries and other "ex-gay" ministries is that they seem to offer a lot of false hope to people who are already hurting, confused and vulverable. Although Exodus makes no promises or gurantees, one tends to conclude from reading their policy statements that freedom from homosexuality and conversion to heterosexuality are very possible indeed. So, if this is in fact the case, where is the evidence? Why is it that so many former key ex-gay leaders such as Michael Bussee, John Paulk, and Michael Johnston have "fallen from grace"? http://www.truthwinsout.org/ Now, I am not going to condemn these men - I am certainly no better than any of them; but, in my opinion, it discredits the ex-gay movement. The many individuals I became acquainted with from Exodus International and New Direction ministries all had one thing in common: they continued to struggle with same sex attraction. Does this sound like freedom of homosexuality to you? I'm not convinced any of the good folks I had the pleasure of meeting have experienced any real conversion in terms of their sexual orientation. I want to believe that Exudus Intl' and other ex-gay programs have good intentions, but I believe that many individuals are being hurt and deluded through these ministries, and they're wasting their time and money attending meetings, small groups, counselling sessions and purchasing their many available written resources. So, anyone out there in FACTNET world have any experiences with Exodus Intl' or other ex-gay ministies? I would like to hear your story. | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 129.33.119.12 |
Thanks for starting the thread. Here are some more true life stories of failed attempts to change orientation through Exodus and like "ex-gay" ministries. http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=31569&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm | ||
| osakadan New member Username: osakadan Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.239.42 |
The documentary "One Nation Under God" is an insight into how ridiculous Exodus really is. | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.108.177.80 |
Thanks, O-Dan. I will have to put that one in my movie queue. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Why do so many alcoholics fall off the wagon after having gone through AA? Surely this discredits AA? Without making any comment regarding Exodus International, of which I have only the vaguest familiarity, certainly the speciousness of this argument is apparent. | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 76.64.78.124 |
MCM, I'm not certain I understand your response. Please help me understand how you can compare recovery from alcoholism to the changing one's sexual orientation. | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 76.64.78.124 |
Secondly, why shouldn't I question the integrity of ex-gay ministries based on the actions of their leaders who have time and again been caught in sexual affairs with other men, caught frequenting gaybars, or chosen to leave the ex-gay organization, and their wives to live with their lovers? - besides the lack of evidence of any real conversion results? | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 76.64.78.124 |
freedom, thank you so much for sharing that link containing the true life stories. thanks dan, I'll have to check out that documentary. | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.97.190 |
There are folks out there that stopped being gay. They changed. So can you. I read on factnet of folks that went to Hegewisch Baptist Church and were delivered. Google it if you like. I have read numerous articles about Gay people who went straight and have families now. I think you are being unfair to ministries that cater to folks who decide to change. | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 71 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.97.190 |
Plus I think a gay woman has it a whole lot easier controlling her sexuality then any gay man or heterosexual man. You don't have testosterone. You have it easy as a woman, mind over matter. | ||
| osakadan New member Username: osakadan Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.243.56 |
While a bit dated, the documentary I recomended shows Exodus for the sham it is. The only"succesful" conversions hapened to e the leaders, who went on to admit their love for each other. | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.14.17.10 |
"Plus I think a gay woman has it a whole lot easier controlling her sexuality then any gay man or heterosexual man. You don't have testosterone. You have it easy as a woman, mind over matter." 40, you're mistaken - I'm a man. Not that gender should make a difference except I imagine that it's a lot easier to fake heterosexuality for a woman. A man that has no attraction to the opposite gender would have a difficult time performing certain marital duties. | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 206.47.220.230 |
"There are folks out there that stopped being gay. They changed. So can you. I read on factnet of folks that went to Hegewisch Baptist Church and were delivered. Google it if you like." 40, did you not scroll down further to view my response to inkorrekt’s recommendation? After many years of trying, I’m convinced conversion is impossible. If ever some new evidence is presented down road that proves to the contrary, then perhaps I will reconsider my position. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
SR, I was specifically responding to the following: Perhaps I read too much into this, but what I perceived this as a discrediting of the whole "ministry" based on the fact that people still struggle with the temptation. In my analogy I was merely dealing with the logic and attempting show, by example, why I believe it to be fallacious. I suppose if one expects or is promised freedom from struggle, or even falling every now and then, then there is no point. However, in this regard SSA is no different then any other passion (the passions, in Orthodox terminology, is essentially equivalent to St. Paul's usage of "the flesh", especially in Romans 8 where he states "to be carnally minded is death"; or to St. John's usage of "the world", vis., e.g., 1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.") One is rarely instantaneously "healed" from them, but one must struggle against them, as St. Paul alludes in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This is not a denial or demonization of the body, but rather, "subjecting" it to the spirit, the "inner man of the heart", the nous that is focused on God rather than the things of this world. This is, from the Eastern perspective, the purpose of Christian faith - the purification of the nous (i.e. a "mind" set on the Spirit rather than set on the flesh) through repentance, which includes "struggle" against sin (askesis in Orthodox terminology), illumination (the revelation of God to the heart - "blessed are the pure for they shall see God") and, ultimately, glorification, or as St. Peter writes "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4) So then, from the Orthodox standpoint, Christian faith is not principally a set of philosophical propositions to be rationally derived and affirmed, but a living, dynamic, organic relationship within community, i.e. the ekklesia or Church. As Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos (Greece) states in his book Orthodox Psychotherapy (and in Greek the word "psychotherapy" literally means "soul therapy", not the same as psychotherapy is commonly used in the our culture), "the spiritual life is a dynamic journey. It begins with baptism, which is purification of the `image', and continues through ascetic living aimed at attaining `likeness', which is to say communion with God." Consequently, the Church, rather than simply a collection like minded human beings coming together for mutual support, is a divine institution, Mystically the Body of Christ, and, again in the words of Metropolitan Hierotheos, "the work of the Church is therapeutic. It seeks to heal men's sicknesses, mainly those of the soul, which torment them. This is the basic teaching of the New Testament and of the Fathers of the Church." Grace and peace to you! | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
Quote: The many individuals I became acquainted with from Exodus International and New Direction ministries all had one thing in common: they continued to struggle with same sex attraction. Does this sound like freedom of homosexuality to you? I'm not convinced any of the good folks I had the pleasure of meeting have experienced any real conversion in terms of their sexual orientation. end quotation There is a good reason why they still struggle-- because people are born gay, lesbian or transgendered. One could as easily change their left-handedness to right as change orientation. Most reasonable people understand this, when one talks to and knows gay persons who have felt "different" from heterosexuality since being small children. One really has to stretch to say it is a choice. The Church's role should be to love, support, and encourage same-sex families just like any other. | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
I take ur point FMPastor. I am a longstanding Xian who for many years condemned anyone of sexual orientation other than hetrosexualism. As a pastor too. Thank God the compassion I thought I had later reached down into the heart. It is not a black/white issue. First, the Church has a lot to answer for. My fiend was married. She struggled with inner desires for a same sex relationship. She sought God continually. Started co-habiting with a female friend. She resigned her position as a youth leader at her church. But, but, but the Church decided to bring her before the Fellowship. Shame on them......disgusting...another example of lording it over and absolute judgementalism. ( scriptures or no scriptures - yer dont do that...and if so then stuff the scriptures.....get real and understand what makes the human body tick).Thankfully she left before that happened. After that church members would cross the road when they saw her coming. The church members were more at fault. What's in their closet often? Do they confess to seeing dirt movies late at night on the sex channels ( for them they need to put their own house in order for). For me dirty movies are quite healthy and can help top prevent sad Xian fanaticism and unhealthiness of mind. Where Xians have been the cause of damaging God given emotions. Would rather be a liberal Xian than one of those in the "stuffed shirted category. I work with this lady. Have enjoyed the company of her partner too. They are lovely friends. So happy. She is not in the wrong.....she sought God and did her best. I work with gay men within social work. They are as normal as I am. Trouble is these days people are marked out because of their sexuality. I interview at work and God forbid that I discriminate. They are as worthy as anyone else. As for women finding it easier to not fulfill same sex desires....not true in my view. Furthmore, I wonder how many Xian men( and married ones too) secretly has fantasies about other men. Maybe it is true that most men have a slightly bi side. So what....nothing wrong with the fanatisies anyway. My wife and I often fanatise in bed about same sex ( not ashamed at all)...and we are Xians.....it's fun and healthy. For me it was mental torture in a manipulative church years ago...now its normal living. I compare that to my years as a teenager experiencong spiritual abuse in the church. Many years wasted....then I got a life..... We are all entitled to our views but not to condemn. Entitled to believe that the Bible abhors it even...but to try and ram the scriptures down another's throat it not on.... Church - keep yer hands of one's sexual orientation lest an individual comes to you for advice. Get yer own house in order......ie. manipulative practices, gossip, fanatical practices, etc etc. HH | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 129.33.119.12 |
Hi FMP – thanks for your comments. Some people seem to have no understanding about the nature of sexual orientation or gender identity. Difference/orientation is viewed the same as a sin/a “sinful nature” that we should struggle against our entire lives much like alcoholism, resisting pornography and adultery and stealing and murder -- comparisons I find offensive. Those same people have a wife or husband at home and think their struggle to be faithful to one life partner is somehow the same as a call to lifelong celibacy and being alone. I find it really quite twisted and selfish for someone to make those comparisons and go on about the glories of devoutness, celibacy, monasteries, etc when they themselves have wives, husbands and children. I hereby challenge folks to 15 years of celibacy (my record) and being alone. Get back to me when you’ve completed the challenge, and I will consider listening to what you have to say. Oh…you might say, but God didn’t call me to celibacy. Lucky you. So, what gives you the right to sit there and tell me that God called me to celibacy? Not even Paul went that far. He said "because of immoralities" folks could/should marry. What does that mean -- that celibacy is too hard for straight people-- but not gays? God does not have such a double standard. As FMP has pointed out, the greek words were not translated "homosexual" until the 19th Century. The scripture was not refering to loving, committed, same-sex partnerships, it refered to pederasty, idolatry and prostitution. | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 129.33.119.12 |
4o/40 said: "Plus, I think a gay woman has it a whole lot easier controlling her sexuality then any gay man or heterosexual man. You don't have testosterone. You have it easy as a woman, mind over matter." me: Hi 40 -- are you trying to be funny or are you serious? Some folks might find this offensive and sexist. I am not sure yet. Are you saying women have more self control than men when it comes to sex? (My mother would likely agree with you.) Gosh -- with all that testosterone, perhaps men can't be held accoutable for their actions. Mind over matter --really, are you serious? If you are serious, your thought process seems to align with the whole idea prevalent in Muslim culture -- covering the women so men are not tempted etc, i.e. men cannot control themselves and if a woman is uncovered and attacked by a man -- it's her fault, by gosh. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
43, If I can put you in contact with women who have been celibate 50 years would you listen to them? Grace and peace to you! | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
One might add that celibacy is not the norm, although to be respected. And may I add that the roman cathlic church is a brill ad for such...I think not....we know of dirty minded perverted priests....certainly not helpful to pastoral insight and experience and damning on that church. But other reasons for celebacy may be for good and worthy reasons...who am I to question that. All I can say is one would be missing out on a lot of good loving hanky panky....and furthermore I would say the majority cannot do without sex within a loving relationship. I feel sorry for perhaps some 50 women mcm. Perhaps some of them were manipulated into such; whilst others chose themselves. Perhaps go on to say what the difficulties are they have experien ced as a result!! No dont......too personal. I have no time for imposed celibacy.....it stinks but sadly some are gullible. HH | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Hilarious, do you believe the words of Christ? | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.108.237.151 |
MCM -- it would be my pleasure to talk to such a person. | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
MCM - your posting number 107 seems incomplete. Please give your reasoning for your questioning. | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
What does concern me about some Xian ministries who are sincere about supporting people who invite those ministries to help re sexual orientation is that those individuals may then find themselves in more confusion than ever....my reasoning being: That those people seeking help then may find themselves ensnared in a Xian Fellowship which dictates how they should live with the possibility of manipulative practices.Such is more destructive than anything else. And dont forget that often Churches and Xian Organisations purport to be compassionate and empathetic but so often on their terms, because they have long time binned any notion of healthy democracy and respect for other reasonable viewpoints. So in my generally I believe that Organisations which do not have the OTT spiritual emphasis are better equipped to help those who seek their help. Because they have no bias towards people's sexual orientation and are down to earth and real in their responses. I speak as a long standing Xian who escaped the unhealthy manipulative practices within a pentecostal church.....damaged for many years and quite near to suicide. Thankfully I received help and began living a normal life....the trimmings such as church went but a quiet faith in the heart remained. Many many Xian dont understand that having come out of excessive outworkings of faith and near to breakdown, that in order to survive you have to ditch certain things and perhaps lower standards which may not be acceptable to the Church but to society in general. HH | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
Freedom43, a corelative question: would talking with them have any impact on your current beliefs and/or praxis? Hilarious - let me expand then, do you believe the words of Christ as contained in the four Gospels of the common Christian New Testament canon to be "truth"? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 110 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
I am unclear as to what "OTT" means. Human beings being what they are, often react poorly. I can certainly see where "Ministries" and "organizations" which hold a hope for a "miraculous change" of some sort can do more damage than good. When the passions, of whatever kind, are confronted squarely and head on with the view in mind that overcoming them requires a daily struggle and that this struggle is what all believers face, then it seems progress can be made. Any 12-step program recognizes that it is a "one day at a time", often one moment at a time proposition, and that all the Grace of God and strength of heart is sometimes required to just get through one day. Often we fall. What is needed then is a non-condemning offer to help get back up not simply making one comfortable with where one has fallen. Grace and peace to you! | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.162.143.21 |
MCM -- how can I asnwer that when I don't know what they will say? If you believe the Bible then you must believe that if they are speaking the truth/the gospel/the word of God that it will have an impact. What does the Bible say --the word of God will not return void? But, if they are speaking man-made salvation through works/good deeds apart from faith and grace, then I am not sure how much impact that would have on me. I guess you have to decide if you think their words would be falling on deaf ears, i.e. if you believe I am so deceived I am beyond hope or if they would be casting their pearls before swine in your eyes. And, I will untlimately have to decide if I am willing to subject my fragile faith to their message. My initial thought was that I am open and willing to talk to anyone and would be interested to hear the story and testimony of a person so dedicated. On the other hand, I find judgment and condemnation painful/hurtful and that it creates a wedge (separation) between me and God. That kind of message doesn't feel like the good news of Jesus Christ to me. But, I imagine such a devoted person would be full of the love of God and the fruit of the Spirit -- and that is something I would like to see for myself. So, think about it and let me know your thoughts. | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
MCM -= with respect you still havent answered my question. U seem to be playing 20 questions. If you and I were face to face one would be aware of the context in which a question was being asked. It seems that you are asking a questiion with follow up comments ready to follow depending on what the answer is. So try again. lol HH | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 113 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
Wow, Freedom43, you read far more into my question than what was intended. I was actually focusing on what I would have to go through to see if I could get some monastics to email with you. It will not be particular easy, for there are not that many that engage people on the Internet (and certainly not in a forum such as this). I'm most confident they would in no ways be "judgmental" or "condemning", unless you would interpret any assessment of homosexual acts as sin to such. I will see what I can do and will let you know. Hilarious, honestly I can't follow you. The question I asked above was pretty straight forward, but your reluctance to answer leaves me to infer that you do not accept the words of Christ as contained in the Gospels. Nevertheless, I will share what had in mind... Matthew 19:4-12 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? (8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. (12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Grace and peace to you! | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
MCM - surprised u couldnt follow me. And u infer wrongly. I have taught the scriptures since the 60's so obviously know the reality of Christ Words. Now what next? Would be good if you get what you have in mind of your chest in one go. lol Piece- meal approaches can be annoying. rofl HH HH | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
Hilarious, sorry, I don't have anything "on my chest". I was simply responding to your comments regarding celibacy in your post # 13 above. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 115 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
BTW, this doesn't logically follow nor is the conclusion "obvious". To teach the scriptures does not necessarily mean one "knows the reality". Additionally, my question was did you accept Christ's words to be truth? Oh, and sometimes piecemeal is best to establish a basis for discussion that doesn't simply wind up with people talking past one another. I've had that happen too often here on FACTNet. Grace and peace to you. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.50 |
stillrecovering or anyone else for that matter, I really don't have a dog in this fight as they say but ... Do you now or have you ever exercised your will to choose what you are sexually attracted to? Someone in another thread about Ted Haggard wondered out loud if there was some sort of test for homosexuality. It sounded ridiculous to me at first but then I thought about it. You all feel free to disagree but I think one 'self test' would be a pheromone test. Question: Do you enjoy the 'musk' scent of a male? If you do and you find yourself attracted to or aroused by other males I'd say you'll have a hell of time changing that. And since it is biological in nature you will probably never really change it, you'll just mask it or otherwise suppress it to your determent and those around you. I throughly enjoy the 'musk' of a female and find my own scent and the scent of other males repulsive. I'd say the odds of me being a homosexual are very low and I probably couldn't be one if I tried. Question: (for heterosexual males) Do you believe that you could ever 'make' yourself find other men genuinely sexually attractive? Could you ever make yourself find the smell of another man something you'd want to snuggle up to? I'd bet that is a universal "no" punctuated with some colorful language. If you can't change and go heterosexual to homosexual how on earth do you expect someone to from homosexual to heterosexual? Think about that. Be yourselves instead of what an ancient tent-maker thought everyone should be. At least you'll be genuine. At least you'll be honest. At least you'll have some chance of finding true happiness instead a 'make-believe' one. My heart goes out to folks struggling within the church with their sexuality. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
I had a written a post then erased it because I thought I don't want to confuse anyone in an area in which I have no expertise and becasue some old teaching ingrained in me made me feel guilty for a few seconds...but how can a heterosexual man tell a homosexual woman that she should live in celibacy for the rest of her life... We are given but one life here on Earth to cherish and live out to the fullest..if a person WANTS to be celibate and it sits well with them- then so be it...no one will be doomed because they loved someone of the same sex..it is what it is -be yourself, you are beautifully and wonderfully made and we each have different passions! | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
MCM - think about it. What does it mean to know the REALITY of Christ's Words. But piecemeal approach may mean someone having difficulty with communication realising that where there is a one to one exchange both are on an equal footing. HH | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
Trainedobserver said: "My heart goes out to folks struggling within the church with their sexuality." And such is concerning for so often the Church either does not know how to approach such issues or as very often is the case the church is downright judgemental and chooses to cast people aside. All too often pompous xians. People enquiring about their sexuality will often get a better deal through normal people in society who really care, as opposed to churches often say they care socially as a vehicle to getting people "saved". Shame on them! HH | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
rachel said: I had a written a post then erased it because I thought I don't want to confuse anyone in an area in which I have no expertise and becasue some old teaching ingrained in me made me feel guilty for a few seconds...but how can a heterosexual man tell a homosexual woman that she should live in celibacy for the rest of her life... We are given but one life here on Earth to cherish and live out to the fullest..if a person WANTS to be celibate and it sits well with them- then so be it...no one will be doomed because they loved someone of the same sex..it is what it is -be yourself, you are beautifully and wonderfully made and we each have different passions! What she said!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 116 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Enlighten me, Hilarious. Whose communicating "piecemeal" now? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 118 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Is that like those young people confused about their sexuality and looking for help to not give in to SSA and finding nothing but condemnation and ridicule from those same "normal people" in society? Just curious. | ||
| inkorrekt Junior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
Dr.Spitzer was the President of the American Psychological Association.He was under heavy lobbying by the homosexual Psychologists who fought to declassify homosexuality as a Psychosexual disorder characterized by compulsive and addictive behaviour.He did this under heavy pressure in 1973. 2 years ago, he made apublic statement that homosexuals can change and he has seen many homosexuals living happily married heterosexual lives.Dr. Spitzer is not even a Christian. Healing is available, possible and it is all a matter of choice whether one wants to be healed or not.If A PERSON DESPERATELY NEEDS HEALING, GOD IS WAITING. Those who want to continue the homosexual lifestyle will never be healed. We have to be honest to ourselves basically. | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.108.232.43 |
mcm -- Don't stress about/spend too much time and energy on trying to find someone to communicate with me. We can start with some modern day testimonials/stories if you have some links -- and not the woman who went to the desert in like 300ad. : ) | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.81 |
I'm certainly no expert but I know what I know. I was presented with opportunity to gain some insight and understanding of the lifestyle and practices of one man very involved in the local homosexual community, which is quite real. He was prayed for and delivered from numerous "things" over the course of several years. Eventually he was "delivered" and married and started a family. I know for a fact that despite being delivered he has struggled greatly with temptations and battles I can not relate to. I highly question whether actual deliverance took place, but rather lean towards thinking he had succesfully suppressed these inclinations to an extent that he could live a heterosexual life despite them. Whether some miracle took place here or not, at the very least I can attribute whatever happened to the accompanying grace and help of the Holy Spirit in doing as he has done. It's been more than 15 years by far, but not an easy time at all. Perhaps there is a place for these types of ministries regardless as to whether actual deliverance takes place. What I mean is that freedom has stated elsewhere the struggle of conforming for 15 years to what the Bible teaches in regards to these things from her churches perspective. It is admirable to me to make this effort out of obedience and love for God, despite the difficulty involved. Over the course of time, and as a result of many things, freedom has stopped trying to deny what she believes she is, and instead sought to serve God while living the life that she must. For those willing to continue the fight/charade/or whatever one's view is, perhaps the assistance of this type of ministry can be effective. There are lots of heterosexual people who are celibate by choice. There is nothing wrong with seeking support for such things in a group. The problem results when committed homosexuals want to commit to a relationship, they usually don't have the option of marriage where the sexual aspect can be lived out in an acceptable fashion. This is a difficult issue to reconcile, but certainly not impossible. It doesn't seem fair if one truly is created or born homosexual, but lots in life is not fair. As a Christian, I do my best to live the principles of the Bible and believe scripture to be an accurate portrayal of God's will for us, and it is quite suitable to teach and correct. As much as I desire to show Christian love , compassion, and acceptance to all men, I can not get by the fact that scripture clearly (to me) tells me practicing homsexual sex is a sin in the same vein heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. I almost want to be convinced that this is not necessarily the heart of God on the matter as some of the finest people I know are gay, but I just don't see it. Therefore I read with interest perspectives such as freedom's and do my best to understand how a church could teach otherwise. I haven't yet seen the logic or explanation as to how a church can justify this, though I've seen it in practice. I don't know what this adds, but I just have a heart for this issue because God has given me one, and because i think ministries which tout high degrees of success in this area are not talking about the ongoing struggles and failures that are very real but would cast doubt on their credibility. I believe in the power of God to heal and deliver, but I see many people (most) not healed or delivered for a whole lot of reasons. We still must minister to them and love them and stand with them and it remains a tough issue for me. | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.13.127.246 |
Inkorrekt "Healing is available, possible and it is all a matter of choice whether one wants to be healed or not.If A PERSON DESPERATELY NEEDS HEALING, GOD IS WAITING. Those who want to continue the homosexual lifestyle will never be healed". Thank you once again inkorrekt for pointing the finger back at myself and others for "not changing" - as if sexual orientation was simply a matter of choice. The problem is that those who do not want to live a homosexual lifestyle are not being "healed". Goodness, you're beginning to sound frighteningly similar to those faith healers that would tell an elderly woman that the reason she was not healed from her terminal cancer was because of her lack of faith. (PS: there's no need to shout, I can hear you just fine  "2 years ago, he made apublic statement that homosexuals can change and he has seen many homosexuals living happily married heterosexual lives." Inkorrekt, I have heard about his claims. Of course through my own experience I remain very skeptical. Perhaps this may be sufficient for you because it matches what you've always believed to be true (please correct me if I'm wrong). What does not surprise me however is that Dr. Spitzer's research is not supported by the APA (American Psychiatric Association), and his work has been "criticized on the grounds of using non-random sampling and poor criteria for success" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spitzer_(psychiatrist) T.O. "Do you now or have you ever exercised your will to choose what you are sexually attracted to?" TO to answer your question, I can certainly exercise my will to control and suppress my sexual desires; however, I cannot choose what I'm sexually attracted to. "Question: Do you enjoy the 'musk' scent of a male? If you do and you find yourself attracted to or aroused by other males I'd say you'll have a hell of time changing that. And since it is biological in nature you will probably never really change it, you'll just mask it or otherwise suppress it to your determent and those around you." Sorry TO, I'm not ignoring you here buddy; but, I would prefer not to discuss specific details about what I find attractive as I believe it might make others (besides myself) feel uncomfortable. e-mail is certainly another option. Xman3 "Perhaps there is a place for these types of ministries regardless as to whether actual deliverance takes place." " "There are lots of heterosexual people who are celibate by choice. There is nothing wrong with seeking support for such things in a group." Hey Xman3, I appreciate you sharing your honest feelings. I believe celibacy ought to be a lifestyle choice for all Christians - and not "the only available" option for a small segment of Christians who do not fit the typical conservative Christian stereotype because of their orientation. It's a good point you make about a celibacy support group. If Exodus International changed its' mission to "Helping Christians who desire celibacy", then perhaps I would feel differently about the organization. However, their policy statements clearly indicate that freedom from homosexuality and conversion to heterosexuality are entirely possible. I believe such statements are misleading and can be extremely harmful. | ||
| inkorrekt Junior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
Who said Christian life is a bed of roses? There are more thorns than the beautiful flowers. Christian/ non christian all have struggles. No one is exempt from temptations. The more aperson commits to aspiritual, God fearing life,the more temptations and obstacles he will face in his life. Temptation comes in various forms. Temptation for adelivered homosexual is not in anyway different from someone who has been delivered from either drugs or alcohol.We have our battles to fight till we die. Do we give up because the battle is very tough? | ||
| fatherofaking Intermediate Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 161 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.88.202 |
what god wants god gets. Ec 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; god wants tears god wants laughter god wants mourners god wants dancers. Ec 3:5 A time to cast stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; cast stones? the monkey sat on a pile of stones and stared at all of the broken bones. if god is god(you know, all knowing and all of that) then he has to be able to understand every experience. there are those who think that god is experiencing everything right along with us. god is existence experiencing existing. i think we need to come to grips with the fact that we are all different. this is how we learn about ourselves. it is the things that i do not like in another, that i should take notice of in myself. what god wants god gets god help us all. roger waters | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.13.127.246 |
inkorrekt One can choose not to give into sexual temptation, and one can choose not to consume another alcoholic beverege; however, sexual orientation is not a choice. If you're speaking strictly about overcoming sexual temptation, than I can agree with you. However I do not understand your comparison between addiction recovery and sexual re-oriention. Can you explain that to me? | ||
| fatherofaking Intermediate Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 162 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.88.202 |
Main Entry: oriented Function: adjective : having psychological orientation <the> Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. if you don't know who you are, then all you will be is a fake. an imitation rather than an original. it will manifest in every area of a persons life. | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.81 |
I believe celibacy ought to be a lifestyle choice for all Christians - and not "the only available" option for a small segment of Christians who do not fit the typical conservative Christian stereotype because of their orientation. I have to agree that this is where the rubber meets the road. You do not have the same opportunity as I do in regards to these things in light of what you call the typical conservative Christian stereotype. Now I would not use the words typical, conservative, or stereotype in making this point because they carry a subtle message of degredation brought on by years of media and left wing jargon labling Christians as such, when the words themselves don't mean what is implied and certainly don't represent all "conservative" Christians. The point is, however, that the common interpretation of scripture and historical interpretation and practice say the same thing without the innuendo. None of this changes the dilemna though. I guess I do think celibacy is the only viable option biblically, and I have to agree it doesn't seem fair- especially for those who believe they were born a homosexual. Many Christians who are outspoken for this policy do not believe that one is born that way however, but are convinced it is a choice. I don't know. In light of what I see in scripture, I just don't see any other options, fair or not. Perhaps I am missing something. I've not heard any convincing arguments saying anything else, though I've seen a few attempts which I perceive as falling short including the few points made around here. As with heterosexuality, but I think more so with homosexuality, there is the predatory and dark side of these lifestyles. I make no defense and harbor no desire to see this justified in any way. As for those sincere and loving individuals who lead lives the same as everyone else and simply want to be able to live with and love their commited partner I appreciate the dilemna, but see no solution other than celibacy or just plain taking one's chances with the mercy of God, which is unfathomable(His mercy, that is). I sincerely hope the choice is not made lightly or in vain as I believe is the case here and I won't belabor the point with my opinions. I wholeheartedly agree that much of what is said sounds eerily familiar to those who say people don't receive other things because of their lack of faith. That's kind of what my last paragraph of my previous post was alluding to, and I think it is an injustice to those who actually have to fight the battle. | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.97.195 |
still recovering (from what) I thought you were a female sorry. freedom 43, your mother seems to be wise, men have a beast in them. I saw a show where a lezbian woman dressed up as a man (she wrote a book I can try to find it if you like) and infiltrated the male world, joined a bowling league, went to mens new age meetings and later to a monastary.... She went with the guys to strip clubs and she said the main differance was that with a man sex was an over powering biological drive, at the end of the day the lady felt deep compassion for the life of an ordinary male. In regards to scriptures addressing pederasty? I don't buy it since many of those old greek men were in loving and committed relationships with the young male of their choice, so Paul was not giving free passes out. Harry you are a perv, at least don't exalt it please. xman makes excellent posts like usual and the most logical here seems to be the poster known as inkorrekt who seems to be a powerful Christian. | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
40 40 You fail to understand that any agreed initmate fantasy or sexual action between a loving committed relationship does not justify your accusation of being a perv. Dont you ever put accusations like that forward again in here when there are no grounds for it. Now back off and keep to debating issues not being unkind to someone who is deeply hurt by your accusation. HH | ||
| hillariousharry New member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
40 days 40 years said: "Harry you are a perv, at least don't exalt it please. " 40-40: I choose to add to my prev post as follows: Your accusation was totally unjustified because my previous writings gave no grounds for it. Fantasies pertaining to same sex relationships and even if carried out are not unlawful. Certain fantasies which if enacted would be unlawful which in my view would be wrong and dispicable. Likewise, one's choice to view lawful blue movies. Now I recognise that the above are not entertained by numerous Xians and are viewed by them as sinful. And I would agree go against Scripture. And Xians views are to be respected. But equally to be respected are the views of people who do not practice the Xian faith. Sadly within the Xian Church there have been and today there are so many individuals who are screwed up in many areas of their lives, including sexual aspects.....for many reasons, but one of them being because of way many Churches/Xians have and do endeavour to manipulate and often instill guilt. This is a fact....it happened to me with severe consequences including suicidal thoughts. For many Xians there has been the need to survive. Although many Xians guarantee help from God, sadly it does not always work out in practice for reasons unknown probably, leaving screwed individuals in anguish. Thankfully secular organisations and people who do not claim to have a faith are often more helpful...they tend to analyse from varying perspectives, not tempted to force religious beliefs and standards and are on an equal level with folk...so that they are approachable and non-judgemental. Unfortunately the Church has much they can learn in regard to this. For me the Church was no help. To survive, whilst maintain a quiet faith in the heart, I needed to ditch certain Xian principles in order to survive.....my life took on more of a balance. It was far better to lower standards more in line with the thinking of society generally ( and may I add that people in general are good people whether practicing a faith or not). I survive. Happiness returned. Life became enjoyable. The freedom of not being manipulated by church life. I took control. Family life was better than ever.....over 30 years of marriage is one proof. Lovely kids and adorable grandchildren. Being in control I choose which scriptures help me and add quality to life. Those which dont suit I leave aside. So to be respected are those who need to adhere strictly to the Scriptures but equally those who dont feel the Scriptures can be the dominant force in their lives. And both have very good reasons often for adherance to either. And the Church must respect this although they wouldnt agree...but where the Church is at fault is when they judge others and go further in making public statements based on no evidence. 40 40: I have not got at you personally in this posting. But I would ask you to reconsider your accusative statement in the light of the above, which was hurtful and unnecessary. HH | ||
| stillrecovering New member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.13.130.159 |
"Now I would not use the words typical, conservative, or stereotype in making this point because they carry a subtle message of degredation brought on by years of media and left wing jargon labling Christians as such, when the words themselves don't mean what is implied and certainly don't represent all "conservative" Christians." You're absolutely right xman, I apologize for the inaccurate generalization. still recovering (from what) I thought you were a female sorry. 40, I accept your apology. I chose this username in 2005 when I began sharing my expriences on FACTNET about my previous involvement with an organization called YWAM (Youth With A Mission). Please let's stay on course with the discussion and not resort to name calling. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 120 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
This discussion seems to illustrate, for me, the way sex in modern society has been elevated as a central and defining feature of a person. Biblically and traditionally, a person is not his or her physical urges, desires, etc. The "inner man of the heart", the nous, is to rule over the passions, the desires, the urges and inclinations, and bring the whole person into conformity with the will of God. This is what the Apostle Paul is saying in Romans 12:1-2, I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. No, it's not fair that celibacy may be the only righteous option for some people. However, this ultimately is the same argument many atheists use against any religious belief. The universe is not fair. Those born in the US or other 1st World countries certainly have a far easier time of it than those born in the 3rd world. We could go through a whole litany of things that aren't "fair". The assertion also stems out of a perspective that is at the root of many materialistic-reductionist philosophies, the comparison of me with others on some relative scale of "rights" or "justice". But the scale or measure of righteousness (i.e. right relationship resulting in right praxis) is not a intra-human one, but it is a matter of how do I stand in the Light of God "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." "Sin" is "missing the mark", and the mark is not some ideal measure of a human being, but the Theanthropos, Christ Jesus, Who came into this world and assumed our nature in order that we, casting ourselves wholly upon Him and receiving His Grace, might partake, by Grace, of His nature. May God have mercy on us all! | ||
| inkorrekt Junior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
MCMSTAFF78: Very well said. The bottom line is we are all sinners in the sight of God.Our basic human nature is to sin and fight righteousness. this is why God came down to set us free from the bondage of Sin. Christianity contrasts itself from Islam as Christians acknowledge the basic sinful nature of man. On the other hand, Islam proclaims that man is perfect creation of God and there is no sin in him. If man is not a sinner, then there is no need for either a Saviour or redemption. The 5 pillars of faith are the only way to salvation or heaven. Many of us have sought forgiveness and others have not. We are all beggars in need of God's mercy. Who are we to throw stones at others because they do not conform to either our standards or expectations. God is the only judge and we are to love everyone. STILL RECOVERING: My heart goes to you in your struggles.I am not pointing fingers at anyone. But, I am giving my own perspectives on this difficult issue.The acknowledgement of our sinful nature is the prerequisite for total healing. If there is any condition that we believe supersedes our sinful nature,then we establish road blocks for our own healing. For example: there is a consensus that alcoholism is a disease. If alcoholism is a disease,then there are 50/50 chances that the alcoholic will be healed. Why? There are millions of people who are not healed by divine intervention.I have prayed for terminally ill people and they have been healed. My own daughter was sick. She was prayed for. But, she died. We do not know why. If the alcoholic believes that drinking is only a habit, then there is 100% chances of healing and recovery.When a person believes that he / she is born the way he/ she is then healing becomes difficult, but not impossible. | ||
| hillariousharry Junior Member Username: hillariousharry Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 86.139.15.200 |
My last post. No more time for factnet. Have logged out now for good. Has been nice nattering to people who share mutual resepct. Always welcome an e mail from friends/people who wish to keep in contact as friends. hillariousharry@hotmail.com HH | ||
| 40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Harry I know I got you a little upset but don't you think your asking to much of me and average Christians? Your a Christian man and your advocating pornography as a good wholesome thing. If you struggle with that stuff?, then fine I will give you my sympathies but you flat out seem to advocate the stuff and any Christian out there who says hold on here????- you will put into the judgemental camp or hypocrite camp. Your view seems a little bizarre can't you see that? | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.81 |
Harry has left the building with a final admonishment to Christians who didn't measure up. Bye HH. | ||
| inkorrekt Junior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 75.166.54.182 |
HILARIOUSHILLARY: What would Jesus do if He were in your situation? Church will condemn and criticize. What will God do? To a woman in distress, He told her,"Do not sin anymore". The same applies for all of us even today. | ||
| stillrecovering Junior Member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.14.21.23 |
I for one am sorry to see Harry go. inkorrekt said, "I am not pointing fingers at anyone. But, I am giving my own perspectives on this difficult issue." inkorrekt: I do apologize if I came to the wrong conclusion. "When a person believes that he / she is born the way he/ she is then healing becomes difficult, but not impossible." On the contrary, I have never indicated that I believe gay people are born gay. This is one popular theory; but, in my opinion (and there are others who share this opinion), the exact cause(s) of homosexuality are still unknown. | ||
| friend New member Username: friend Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
It is sad that many Christians hide behind thier religion to justify homophobia. Even if a Christian thinks homosexuality is a sin, gay and lesbian people should be treated with kindness. As it stands now, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that "love the sinner, hate the sin" does not apply equally to all sinners. The majority of people on the extreme religious right that I know, out and out hate gay people. This is not what Jesus would want (Jesus says nothing about homosexuality, by the way). As for Exodus...it is a dangerous organization and encourages people not to be truthful. It does way more harm than good. | ||
| stillrecovering Junior Member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.14.23.16 |
"It is sad that many Christians hide behind their religion to justify homophobia. As it stands now, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that "love the sinner, hate the sin" does not apply equally to all sinners. The majority of people on the extreme religious right that I know, out and out hate gay people." Friend, I've experienced it myself - at least when I began telling people the truth about myself after almost 10 years of “pretending”. In all fairness, some of my closer friends have stuck by me. What's interesting is that the church's response at times reminds me a little like my old high school - the kids expressed their hatred by bullying and kicking the crap outta you. Church is not very different; except the tactics are much more subtle: adults usually being much more refined will express their hatred in other ways such as avoidance, indifference, or gossip. In the end, the message is the same: it's certainly NOT "love your neighbour as you love yourself". Stories like the one below give me hope that things may change for the better: even if the church will never be unanimous on this very complex issue. http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm | ||
| friend New member Username: friend Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
Sorry about how the church has treated you (and so many others), still. Just keep your eyes on Jesus, listen for that Still Small Voice and never ever let anyone tell you that you are not loved by God because of your orientation. The church has a horrible track record on many social issues: equality of women, slavery, support of war, materialism. When will we ever learn that we see through a glass darkly and that God is judge, not us. | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.162.143.21 |
Friend and stillrecovering -- appreciate both of your voices here. | ||
| john_r_jones Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Still, the Tony Campolo article was thoughtful and eye opening, thanks. Jonesee | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
"The church has a horrible track record on many social issues: equality of women, slavery, support of war, materialism. When will we ever learn that we see through a glass darkly and that God is judge, not us". Friend...that was an awesome statement. | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.162.143.21 |
oh yeah, meant to give a shout out to you too Rachel. : ) | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 |
shouting back!!! This is an important thread-tolerance is what is needed. Sometimes people have opinions and they don't even know why or how they developed them-most of them come from dumb traditions and views that haven't an inch to hold on to... Like I said before we are all fearfully and wonderfully made-sure we don't have all the answers to why we are- the way we are but in the end God loves us and requires us to love and care for others, we are all equals! R | ||
| freedom43 New member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.162.143.21 |
I just read the Tony Campolo article too. I thought it was awesome. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
I heard Peggy Compolo speak some years back, and I was moved to many tears during her message. She is such a gentle loving woman who radiates the love of God. | ||
| stillrecovering Junior Member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 74.13.127.56 |
I'm glad the article is blessing others as it has blessed me. Friend, Freedom, Jonesee, Rachel, and FMP - it's great to hear from you! FMP I've never had the pleasure of hearing Peggy speak - perhaps one day. When I read the article for the first time, admittedly, there was a little something in my eye too... "She is such a gentle loving woman who radiates the love of God." I believe it. | ||
| bana New member Username: bana Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 220.101.159.251 |
Part 1 Where in the Bible does God or Jesus condemn homsexuality? And I am not taking about what comes from Paul's mouth. Was it the story of Onan having a toss and spilling is seed on unfertile ground after God commanded him to sleep with his sister in law? No. Onan's sin was he disobeyed God, not because he indulged in masturbation. Was it the story of the townsfolk of Sodom? Highly doubtful. If it was a condemnation of homosexuality, then it was in the context of attempted rape (of Lot's guests/the two angels). And why wasn't Lot condemned for offering his daughter to those who were planning to gang rape someone? Does God condemn someone because they are born a certain skin colour or gender? Does our Lord condemn someone because they are born deaf, blind, or with Down Syndrome? Yes God condemns sin, including sins such as rape, murder, gluttony, promiscuity, lying, and hate, among numerous others. But in God's eyes no sin is greater than any other. Lying or beating your spouse is still a sin and in the scheme of the original sin and why we need salvation, it's all the same. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin (and I don't), then it is no greater or less than any sins that all of us as human beings commit in our day to day lives. Why should we condemn homosexuals as sinners when I can guarantee, there are plenty of fellow Christians that sin in other ways, cursing, turning their backs on people who need assistance etc. Do you condemn yourself for the sins you yourself commit while condemning homosexuality. And if you are homosexual, why condemn yourself because God made you who you are? If you go cruising for strangers for sex every Friday night, then by all means you should feel guilty and condemn yourself. Same goes for heterosexual Christians that go to singles bars trying to pickup. But the sin in both these cases is promiscuity. | ||
| bana New member Username: bana Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 220.101.159.251 |
Part 2 Many years ago as a young lad I used to attend a church with a close friend who happended to be gay (For those who are interested it was an Anglican church). There were plenty of young unmarried heterosexual couples engaged in illicit carnal activities. If they were discovered, the congregation gave them a fatherly "you know God doesn't approve of that", while when it was discoved my friend was gay, even though his was celibate at the time, he was hounded out of the church as a sinner. Hmm, is that what Christ's message is about? Sins are forgiven, but the way you were born isn't? Anyone who believes that is, I would suggest, guilty of no less a sin than heresy. So why do a large number of Christians treat a homosexual move severely than an other sinner? Is it because the bible teaches us that sex should only be engaged in within the confines of marrage and the church teaches marriage is only for a man and a woman, not two people of the same sex? If so, here's a question for you. If a couple is married outside of a church, eg a registrar's office, are they commiting a sin? Why do I ask this question? Well in the country I'm from if a couple lives together as a couple for more than two years, they are recognised as de facto's (common law) and have all the same protections and recognition as someone who is married (Church service or otherwise). So if a country recognises same sex de facto countries, then the sins of adultary and promiscuity are, in the eyes of the lawmakers is nul and void. I was in a de facto relationship for six years, and during that time my girlfriend and I were regularly invited to dinner by two Baptist ministers we were friends with (one the vice principle of a theological college). Did they approve? Probably not. Did they condemn us? No, because they saw we were in a happy, healthy, loving, committed, and monogamous relationship. So why condemn, or try to "re-orientate" a homosexual that may be either in a commited relationship or celibate? Homosexuals are condemned, or looked down upon, by most sections of the community. Should we condemn them when they seek succor in the love of Jesus? Should we try to convert him to heterosexuality and make him or her something that God didn't make them in the first place? No. Remember, it is Christ-like to give our love and support to those who have been turned away by their fellows and need spiritual support. Homosexuals are a perfect case. Even if you do believe homosexuality is a sin, look around you next time you are in a church service. See those people in the pews? See the person leading the service and reading the sermon? See yourself in the reflection on the window? They all have one thing in common. They are sinners. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. | ||
| xman3 Intermediate Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 108 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.81 |
Where in the Bible does God or Jesus condemn homsexuality? And I am not taking about what comes from Paul's mouth. I expressed my views earlier, so don't think I'm any sort of basher here at all, but this first premise is pretty significant. Paul's words whether we like them or not are Bible and can't be ignored. They can, and have been deeply analysed, but they can't be ignored. I agree basically with almost everything you said, but it must also be considered in view of the New Testament also. It's a tough issue to be sure reconciling the love of Christ with what a lot of Christians believe the Bible says, and how a lot of Christians act towards homosexuals because of it. | ||
| bana New member Username: bana Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 220.101.159.251 |
Xman3, I may have left my intentions re excluding Paul's teachings vague. I was trying to keep the focus narrow enough so the discussion doesn't balloon into a big mess. Yes Paul's words are important (though at times contradictory), but I didn't want this thread to degenerate into "was Paul a homophobe"?, "was Paul himself struggling with homosexual urges?" type of debate. To me it doesn't matter whether or not the answers to any of the above questions are yes or no. To bring this sort of debate into this discussion is counter productive. That is the domain for theologians, historian and textual critics. These are the reasons why I excluded Paul. It was not to devalue his teachings. The simple fact is that flesh will be tempted, no matter what orientation God created you. We should condemn the sin of sexual promiscuity not the persons orientation. Unfortunately, for homosexuals, since the majority of churches do not recognise gay marriage, they will not have the "get out of gaol" card that heterosexuals have, in the eyes of a church, by marrying. If a person is a brother, or sister, in Christ, then it behooves us to treat them as such. No matter what their sins. Accepting Christ as our personal savour doe not mean we instantly stop sinning. As i mentioned, I don't believe homosexuallity is a sin, but for those that do, please think about this; I am left handed. Throughout most of the history of organised Christianity, this was seen as a sign of evil. Would you, if we were living a few hundred years ago, single me out as a "special" type of sinner because of it? | ||
| stillrecovering Junior Member Username: stillrecovering Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 76.64.76.141 |
Thank you for your thoughts bana. Your comments are very refreshing after a day where I've had to put up with a lot of crap from some so-called orthodox Christians on this forum who seem to use their beliefs to disguise their hatred - yet also seem to forget the second of the 2 greatest commandments. The hypocrisy is almost enough to put a person off of Christianity altogether. Of course I've met some very loving and respectful orthodox Christians on Factnet as well. Yet the character of Jesus Christ (who continues to be my source of inspiration) is very different than some of these modern day Pharisees who are well studied, and make pursuasive arguments, but lack love. It's the character of Jesus Christ that I will always admire and look up to. His character was revolutionary - he was patient, loving, kind, showed mercy, spoke the truth in love, had no selfish motive, honoured those who society dishonoured and the list goes on. This was what motivated me to become a Christian over 10 years ago. It was a genuine conversion, and I cannot remember a time in my life when I felt more alive. It was a revelation of God's unconditional love, and this continues to motivate and inspire me to keep pressing on and forging ahead in the journey I had begun over 10 years ago. Love unites, but hatred will always cause division. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.68 |
That is right still recovering...Jesus was very anti-establishment, that always impressed me about His character! People will have their opinions-many say ignorant things because still after all these years they just know any better. I read what was going on -on the other threads and as always you handled that with dignity- Just try to surround yourself with a good support group and folks who love you just as you are...R | ||
| bana New member Username: bana Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 220.101.159.251 |
Stillrecovering, There is no need to thank me, though I do appreciate it. I may be hetero, and trying to visualize the physical homosexual act makes my stomach churn, but I can't stand by and see "hypocrites in the temple". As I mentioned I have seen a close (gay) friend suffer at the hands of Christians that allegedly practice Christ's unconditional love. It sickened me to the core so much that I nearly gave up my faith. And this was in a moderate church. Although I was in my early teens when I became a Christian, and can't remember the exact reason for my conversion, I'm pretty sure it was for the same reasons as you - Christ's character - not a fear of eternal damnation. Remember, Jesus loves you for who you are. Be honest with yourself and enjoy your relationship with Him. Don't let the hypocrites get you done. PS If you live in Sydney, Australia, there is a church that openly supports and accepts gay people (just can't think of the name). If you do live there, it is my home town. Give me a yell and we'll meet up for a chat over a beer or coffee. | ||
| bana New member Username: bana Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 220.101.159.251 |
Stillrecovering, May I leave you with a totally atheistic outlook on this? My father was the senior prosecutor of a govt department (for those in the US, think state DA) and although I literally hated him when i was in my mid to late teens, he passed on a valuable lesson (or three): I once told him (my father) that I don't respect him (we we estrange for 10 years or so). His reply(between punches) was; "You must always respect a person because they are a human being like yourself . Admiration is earnt." BTW I always initiated the punchup. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 158 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
For those who are interested... The Gay Invention | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
Another, for those who like to engage in historical revisionism... Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected Homosexuality | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.33.39.9 |
I really enjoyed marching in the Albuquerque Gay Pride parade last weekend. I have rarely seen a more happy and fun-loving people. Many different churches were represented, all of them open and affirming to gays, lesbians and transgendered folk. It was disturbing though, to see a so-called "Christian" church out there protesting the parade. Their un-loving and hostile spirit stuck out like a sore thumb. Nevertheless, I forgive them. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
Jesus loves everybody. To the adulterous woman who was going to be stoned he said,"I do not condemn you either.Go and sin no more" What He said 200 years ago is true for today. To all the homosexual and heterosexual sinners(Christians of course) God is saying, go and sin no more. If the church does not point this out to the members, this is no church at all. This is no more than a christian Club. Being there on a sunday morning makes no difference than watching a Football game. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
Jesus also said,If you love me, obey my commandments. These commands include marriage between one man and one woman.Romans 12:1,2 Calls on everyone to present our bodies as holy and living sacrifies acceptable to God. This is the perfect will of God. Can we bypass this in exchange for Love? | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
At the end of this month, Exodus is having a conference in CA. I was glad to see that there is also an ex-ex-gay conference which will be held the same weekend. If God created people gay, how can they be condemned for being who they are? | ||
| friend New member Username: friend Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.207 |
inkorrekt wrote: "These commands include marriage between one man and one woman." Marriage in Jesus' day was far from what we consider marriage today. Marriage has evolved. For example, inter-racial marriage was against the law in many Southern states until recently. So, for them, marriage was between one man and one woman but both had to be the same race. In the end, it is love that makes a marriage...nothing more. | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.95.9.158 |
I read Mel Whites book "Stranger at the Gates Growing up gay and christian in America" I didn't agree with any of his opinions as to the moral rightness of being gay but it did leave me with a lot more compassion | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.42.138.176 |
From the Los Angeles Times: quote:New ground in debate on 'curing' gays Christian ministries who see homosexuality as a treatable disorder are starting to think that choice may not be a factor. June 18, 2007 Alan Chambers directs Exodus International, widely described as the nation's largest ex-gay ministry. But when he addresses the group's Freedom Conference at Concordia University in Irvine this month, Chambers won't celebrate successful "ex-gays." Truth is, he's not sure he's ever met one. With years of therapy, Chambers says, he has mostly conquered his own attraction to men; he's a husband and a father, and he identifies as straight. But lately, he's come to resent the term "ex-gay": It's too neat, implying a clean break with the past, when he still struggles at times with homosexual temptation. "By no means would we ever say change can be sudden or complete," Chambers said. His personal denunciation of the term "ex-gay" — his organization has yet to follow suit — is just one example of shifting ground in the polarizing debate on homosexuality. Despite the fundamental gulf that divides them, gay-rights activists and those who see homosexuality as a sinful disorder are starting to reach agreement on some practical points. Chambers and other Exodus leaders talk deliberately about a possible biological basis for homosexuality, in part to explain that no one can turn a switch and flip from gay to straight, no matter how hard they pray. A leading conservative theologian outside the ex-gay movement recently echoed the view that homosexuality may not be a choice, but a matter of DNA. To the shock and anger of many of his constituents, the Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote that "we should not be surprised" to find a genetic basis for sexual orientation. That's heretical to many conservative Christians. But it's a view increasingly embraced by the public at large; a Gallup Poll last month found that 42% of adults believe sexual orientation is present at birth. (Three decades ago, when Gallup first asked the question, just 13% held that view.) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 202 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 72.145.247.245 |
For insight into the scriptural issues and serious academics refuting the revisionist on this, see Robert Gagnon's website. Gagnon is an Associate Professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and one the most formidable biblical scholars on this subject. He is not a "fundamentalist" and the revisionists cannot just casually ignore his scholarship. | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
"I want God's gay and lesbian children to know of God's unconditional love and acceptance of them as well. We cannot find any condemnation in scripture for committed monogamous same-sex relationships." Rev. Charles Coppinger, Chaplain of the Arizona Legislature in a letter to legislators, sent 2000-NOV-7, announcing that he is a gay male. "The half-dozen biblical references to homosexuality do not reflect what we understand today about loving relationships. This is an identity, not a sin." The Rev. Dan Johnson of Good Samaritan United Methodist Church in Edina,MN. "Homosexuality and sodomy are not ethical sins. No one is being hurt, no one is being cheated, nobody's rights are being infringed upon. Homosexuality is a religious sin, analogous to other Biblical prohibitions, like not eating the carcass of a dead animal, or not sleeping with a woman during her menstrual cycle." Rabbi Shmuley Boteach "I am always amazed at how the Bible, that portrays my Lord embracing the outcasts, touching the lepers, welcoming the Samaritans, not judging the woman taken in the act of adultery, and inviting 'all of ye,' not 'some of ye,' to 'come unto me,' can, in the hands of a few distorted people be turned into a book of hatred, violence and judgment." "In reality, there are no biblical literalists, only selective literalists. By abolishing slavery and ordaining women, millions of Protestants have gone far beyond biblical literalism. It's time we did the same for homophobia." William Sloane Coffin 6 | ||
| hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.93.24.2 |
I do agree that xians by and large are very selective about what we believe and practise (divorce and remarriage for eg) but that doesn't change the fact Homo is explicitly condemmed in Rom 1 to me it is no worse than a callous disregard for marriage ;overeating or drunkeness They're all sin. I also think the way the church treats homosexuality is an absolute travesty. The starting place on all these issues for me is the trustworthiness of the scriptures when they speak to issues like this. Without agreement there what is the point of a discussion? If we don't believe for whatever reason the bible is God's word and sufficient to guide our everday life what is the basis for any discussion? Human sexuality is such a strong force in our life. Too many of my bro in Christ will condemn Homo and then turn right around and allow unscriptural remarriage on the basis of the individuals need. Then they think you are a nutbar when you point the hypocricy there. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
"Love is all that matters". Lots of men and women love their dogs more than they love people. If love is the only criterion for marriage, why do not these people marry their dogs? In Washingotn State men had intercourse with horses. Why do they not marry the horses? | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
How can we compare apples and oranges here? Homosexuality is a deviant and abnormal behaviour. How? God had created us in avery very unique manner. The sexual organs in male and female are designed for complimentary fun ctions. Sex is a gift of God. God created men and women so that they will be united in marraige as one body for procreation and building of the family. Sex was designed primarily for this purpose. Excretory organs were never designed for sexual gratification. Foe example, no one puts gasoline in the exhaust pipe. If they did everybody knows what will happ-en. So, it is true with human sexuality. Anal sex is responsible for many Sexually transitted diseases including AIDS. Well, the fire place is warm. But, we do not put our hands inside just because it is warm. So, is homosexual practise.When natural order is violated, there are consequences. Herte it is AIDS as well as destruction of the families. So many married men and women left their spouses for homosexual partners.Children have become the victims. Nature is always complimentary. When we violate natural order, there is consequence. | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
inkorrekt- I think you should rethink the whole area of what is genital normalacy. Firstly, many straight couples have anal sex. Secondly, anal sex can happen without genital penetration. Thirdly, in the male, the massage of the prostate through the rectal wall is an extremely pleasurable exercise. Fourthly, many gay men do not do anal penetration, and many lesbians also do not. I am sorry you brought up the subject as it really has very little to do with whether homosexuality is right or wrong. I believe what God is concerned about is our using our sexuality with integrity, loyally, and lovingly, whether we are gay or straight. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.62 |
How can you can brand homosexuality deviant or abnormal behavior when it occurs in nature across numerous species? It's that a bit arrogant, one species 'knowing better' than all the others about what the 'proper use' of sex organs are? If one of the invisible gods inspired someone to tell the humans, it appears it didn't bother to tell the other species. The lesbian monkeys could have used a note or something. I'm sure the monkey boys would have appreciated it. The truth is closer to being that our species is probably the only one capable of conceptualizing things to the point of the paralysis of our own common sense. That's why we're the only species tormenting each other over it. We need to relinquish our imagined control over these sorts of things and allow nature to find its own center. Our concepts and ideas about what nature should or should not be are entirely meaningless to nature itself. Isn't that obvious if you stop to think about it? At what point has what we have 'thought' about something made any difference whatsoever in nature? | ||
| ihavesinned Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 64.122.1.158 |
"God created men and women so that they will be united in marraige as one body for procreation and building of the family. Sex was designed primarily for this purpose." Why did god create hermaphrodites? | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.4 |
Why did god create hermaphrodites? or those lesbian monkeys ...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/19/waa19.xml Wouldn't you have enjoyed sitting in on that design review? God: (stroking his long white beard and leaning toward a short angel sitting at a long table of angels in the 'infinite conference room') "Lesbian Monkey?, I don't get it." Stooge Angel: "It will totally screw with Darwin's head!, I guarantee it!" God: (God's eyes pop wide and he suddenly freezes) Oh! Oh! This is so much better than that Platypus idea whathisname had last week! I say we do it. | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.38.200.77 |
Three former leaders of Exodus made a public apology yesterday in LA. Here is what they said: * Quote: As former leaders of ex-gay ministries, we apologize to those individuals and families who believed our message that there is something inherently wrong with being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families. Although we acted in good faith, we have since witnessed the isolation, shame, fear, and loss of faith that this message creates. We apologize for our part in the message of broken truth we spoke on behalf of Exodus and other organizations. We call on other former ex-gay leaders to join the healing and reconciliation process by adding their names to this apology. We encourage current leaders of ex-gay programs to have the courage to evaluate the fruit of their programs. We ask them to consider the long-term effects of their ministry. End letter It was signed by Darlen Bogle, Michael Bussee and Jeremy Marks. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.32.143 |
FORMERMARANATHAPASTOR: Just because anal sex is practised by heterosexual couples is this an acceptable practise for the homosexual? In the 1980's 80 % of the AIDS patients were male homosexuals. No body talks about this anymore. Is it because it has disappeared? No,the homosexual activists got $16 billion for AIDs research. Most of this money is now used for propaganda for the homosexual agenda as another form of lifestyle to the schools at the expense of the taxpayer.This is allo they wanted and they got it.Forget about research. | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.32.99.181 |
Is all the proof you have to make homosexuality immoral, the fact that AIDS can be transferred by anal sex? Well, what about all the STDs that heterosexual couples can transfer? Anal sex does not cause AIDS, anal sex can TRANSFER the AIDS virus under certain conditions from one partner who already HAS the virus. Many gay couples do not have the AIDS virus. Many gay and lesbian couples DO NOT practice anal sex. Monogamous, loving committed gay couples who are not infected will not get the AIDS virus. Forget about your reasoning. | ||
| friend Junior Member Username: friend Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.207 |
Sadly, it is easier to blast people with AIDS claiming they are a part of some "agenda" rather than volunteering to help those with the disease. I buddy for a local HIV/AIDS org. There are more heterosexual clients than GLB clients there. The face of AIDS is changing. That is because, I think, the gay community did use money to educate about transmittal. Sadly, the Latino and African-American communities are still struggling with how to educate folks against STD's including AIDS. And, Ink, just what is "the homosexual agenda"? As a straight guy, I would really like to know what covert action some of my friends and family are involved with ? | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.147.178 |
Almost 2% of the nation's 3 million same-sex households include adopted children, saving U.S. taxpayers as much as $130 million a year in costs for keeping children in foster or institutional care and recruiting adoptive parents for them. That is 60,000 families with children who would be left in adoption agencies. Families people, these are families TOO!!!! | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
FormerMARANATHAPASTOR: Obviously you are not a scientist. Much of the research on homosexuality is done by homosexuals themselves. For example, Anton Lavey was grieving over his lover's death. He took upon himself to carry out research. He published apaper in the prestigious journal Science. He tried to demonstrate that the hypothalamus in the homosexual brain is smaller than the heterosexual. It was a sloppy experiment with very little controls. This had the highest criticism and he left Science. There are many more. | ||
| ihavesinned Intermediate Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 138 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 24.17.77.171 |
Ink, You seem really interested in homosexual activity - almost obsessed. This is not uncommon among christians. I can't help but think of Ted Haggard when I hear this kind of rhetoric. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.27 |
You seem really interested in homosexual activity - almost obsessed. This is not uncommon among christians. I can't help but think of Ted Haggard when I hear this kind of rhetoric. I agree. Lonnie Latham is another one that always comes to mind. It casts the staggering shadow of Jimmy Swaggart as well. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." --From Hamlet (III, ii, 239) | ||
| friend Junior Member Username: friend Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.207 |
"Ink, You seem really interested in homosexual activity - almost obsessed. This is not uncommon among christians. I can't help but think of Ted Haggard when I hear this kind of rhetoric." Having worked among and with evangelicals for quite a while, I would agree. Most folks who "protest too much" are struggling with the issue inside themselves. Sad that homosexuality is the sin these folks focus on when they should be focusing on integrity. "Come out, come out whereever you are." --Glenda the Good Witch in the Land of Oz | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.29 |
Sad that homosexuality is the sin these folks focus on when they should be focusing on integrity. Exactly. However, 'integrity' is glossed over in favor of 'grace' and 'forgiveness' when it should be about 'accountability'. But if 'accountability' were really to become an issue then there would be way too much to be answered for, too many cans full of worms, too many skeletons that have to be dealt with. | ||
| friend Junior Member Username: friend Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.207 |
I would agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, trained. However, I do believe that grace...God's unlimited amazing grace...covers all sins, including the sin of not being honest with oneself. There should be accountablity. But, there is also the notion that no matter what we do we cannot make God love us any more than God does nor any less than God does. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
You homosexuals, my lesbian assistant was upset with me because I refused to accept her lifestyle which is wrong, has no scientific basis and it is unnatural.She was a poor worker. I did my best to improve her performance and even build her career. But, she turned the other way and got me fired. I could never get back to my work.She wrecked my career. Do you see why I am angry at all of you homosexuals? You can accuse me of anything. But, I will fight you all. | ||
| formermaranathapastor New member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.32.99.181 |
Ink- I am sorry you got fired. Is it fair to blame all gays and lesbians for the actions of one person? I pray for your healing and understanding. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.190.83.48 |
I do apologise for lashing at all of you. Yall have no idea of what I went through because of homosexual activism. I have been victimised. My career as well as my life have been ruined. If anyof you had been through this, then you will understand. I admire the compassion and love FRIEND has for those who are struggling with the homosexual behaviour. I have to admit that I do not have either the Compassion or desire to do anything for those who are struggling for the same reasons I explained above. I was advised to fire my lesbian assistant. I had compassion for her struggles. I hired her. Hiring and firing is not may management style. I was responsible for her performance. I tried to help her as much as I could. But, She was not there to do my work. But, She moved to my state only to support her lover in her school as well as to be Politically active. Anyone else would have fired her. But, I did not I paid the heaviest price.Well, I am not alone. There are many more. One of the dangers is the hate crime bill is coming. If it gets passed, it will become a crime even to mention the name "Homosexual". It is already a law in Canada. It is amatter of time when the rights of all christians will be taken away. Today, in Britain, no one can metion the name "Muslim" in connectionw ith terrorism. Since then, I became involved in collecting all the information and providing the facts. I became involved with the Psychologist Dr. Cameron in a political campaign and we won. But, the courts denied the rights of the voters. I follow the research work of Dr. Nicolisi. Though, I am unable to help those who are struggling, I provide financial support to Focus on the family which has an active ministry for homosexuals. Everyday, I pass through a Gay house. There is something strange about this house. Sometimes, I feel detested even by looking at the house. At other times, I feel sorry for them. The media never provides facts. It is Lies, half truths and misrepresentations. During 1980's emergency rooms were full of men engaged in anal sex. During surgery, they found out coco cola bottles inside. They were used for pleasure. When these objects tear down the intestinal mucosa,blood vessels are ruptured. This is when seminal fluid comes in contact with blood. This is the cause for AIDS. In Europe, an experiment was carried out in which seminal fluid from a healthy male was injected into the blood of another healthy male. He who received the seminal fluid developed AIDS. This had nothing to do with the HIV. The question is where is tyhe AIDS virus. This misinformation is costing us 16 billion dollars. These are the facts of life. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.190.83.48 |
I do apologise for lashing at all of you. Yall have no idea of what I went through because of homosexual activism. I have been victimised. My career as well as my life have been ruined. If anyof you had been through this, then you will understand. I admire the compassion and love FRIEND has for those who are struggling with the homosexual behaviour. I have to admit that I do not have either the Compassion or desire to do anything for those who are struggling for the same reasons I explained above. I was advised to fire my lesbian assistant. I had compassion for her struggles. I hired her. Hiring and firing is not may management style. I was responsible for her performance. I tried to help her as much as I could. But, She was not there to do my work. But, She moved to my state only to support her lover in her school as well as to be Politically active. Anyone else would have fired her. But, I did not I paid the heaviest price.Well, I am not alone. There are many more. One of the dangers is the hate crime bill is coming. If it gets passed, it will become a crime even to mention the name "Homosexual". It is already a law in Canada. It is amatter of time when the rights of all christians will be taken away. Today, in Britain, no one can metion the name "Muslim" in connectionw ith terrorism. Since then, I became involved in collecting all the information and providing the facts. I became involved with the Psychologist Dr. Cameron in a political campaign and we won. But, the courts denied the rights of the voters. I follow the research work of Dr. Nicolisi. Though, I am unable to help those who are struggling, I provide financial support to Focus on the family which has an active ministry for homosexuals. Everyday, I pass through a Gay house. There is something strange about this house. Sometimes, I feel detested even by looking at the house. At other times, I feel sorry for them. The media never provides facts. It is Lies, half truths and misrepresentations. During 1980's emergency rooms were full of men engaged in anal sex. During surgery, they found out coco cola bottles inside. They were used for pleasure. When these objects tear down the intestinal mucosa,blood vessels are ruptured. This is when seminal fluid comes in contact with blood. This is the cause for AIDS. In Europe, an experiment was carried out in which seminal fluid from a healthy male was injected into the blood of another healthy male. He who received the seminal fluid developed AIDS. This had nothing to do with the HIV. The question is where is tyhe AIDS virus. This misinformation is costing us 16 billion dollars. These are the facts of life. | ||
| osakadan Junior Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 121.82.138.143 |
You are seriouslu messed up inkorrect. With such blatant misinformation that you post here I don't wonder thatyou were fired. During 1980's emergency rooms were full of men engaged in anal sex. During surgery, they found out coco cola bottles inside. They were used for pleasure. When these objects tear down the intestinal mucosa,blood vessels are ruptured. What total crap and a smear programme that propogate. Yes, there have been such cases but they are rare, and they are also not the exculsive domain of homosexuals. There are just as many heterosexuals practicising what the majority call extreme sexual practices. You are a pathetic little hate mongerer Inkorrect and you should be ashamed to call yourself a christian - anyone people are turning away in droves from your religion. | ||
| trainedobserver Intermediate Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.1 |
She wrecked my career. Do you see why I am angry at all of you homosexuals? I see why you hate them. Irrational hatred of a group fueled by religious bigotry and self-righteous indignation over an isolated personal experience. You continue to suffer and wish to spread the suffering to others. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 206.148.112.145 |
Inkorrect..I am so surprised by you! I have read your topics on the religious leaders forum and have agreed with you on some things...we can't box up all the homosexuals and blame all of them for what happened to you- no more than we can blame christians for everything Robert Tilton has done... What you said about that rare finding of coke bottles and things..well it is not so rare among heterosexual women..I read in one of my Glamour Mgazines a few years back they find all that stuff lodged in woman and more..oranges, pop bottle caps-people do nutty things..not just gay men! Behave and stop being such a baby. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
I am talking about real science with fully documented research work. I am not the one whom you all describe. You are the people who are fascists. How? You are forcing your own disgusting and dangerous lifestyles upon the rest of us. You can call me anything you want. But the facts will never change.Icould not believe that Rachel is also one of them. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
I am talking about real science with fully documented research work. I am not the one whom you all describe. You are the people who are fascists. How? You are forcing your own disgusting and dangerous lifestyles upon the rest of us. You can call me anything you want. But the facts will never change.Icould not believe that Rachel is also one of them. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 280 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 206.148.112.145 |
Are you calling me a facist or a lesbian?? I am neither..but you need to quit being so darn judgemental..what is going on with you? I do not find homosexuality appealing neither do they find my heterosexuality appealing ..Jesus NEVER ONCE spoke out against homosexuality... | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
Rachel: If Glamour is the source of "FACTS" for you, I feel sorry for you. Glamour will write anything to "Sell". Factual details do not matter. You did not understand why I quoted cococola bottles. I wrote this only to demonstrate the dangerous practises that lead to AIDS. Go and search for everything I wrote.Yes, now I understand who are the Oprah fans. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 281 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 206.148.112.145 |
OPRAH!!! What in the world are you talking about???? I am a professional- I do not have time for Oprah. You are being ridiculous.. Stop pointing fingers at people and look at the HATRED in your heart. What is going on with you-have you being drinking that dark liquor or what? This is unlike you.. LOVE ONE ANOTHER! | ||
| osakadan Junior Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 121.82.138.143 |
Inkorrekt you are stupid to assume that people who post here are gay or lesbian. Some of us are just more open-minded than hate mongerers like you. And again your coke-bottle stories are just hate mongering. Medical journals document such things and show that it is not the domain of homosexual males alone. | ||
| promises_firm New member Username: promises_firm Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 66.16.49.113 |
yes He did rachel. and He is Living Word that "was made flesh and dwelt among us". both the old and new testament have very clear scripture, not just cultural old testament "law" practices and references regarding homosexuality. have you ever read that Jesus is the Head and the church is the Bride? how about, God made them male and female that the man would leave his mother and cleave to his wife and the two would become one, representing the relationship of Christ to the church. have you read Ephesians or how about Corinthians where God states to us by His Spirit through the Word, "the adulterer, the homosexual, the greedy and the immoral cannot inherit the Kingdom of God". Jesus did say to restore someone who is in sin, in a spirit of gentleness. also if they won't listen to two or three and then the church, to let them go and relate to them as pagan. not to hate, but not to associate. do you base your life on the individual recorded sentences of Jesus alone, or the Word that He is the manifestation of? there are principles that God that apply clearly, clear scriptures too. there are many people who became involved in homosexual relating and sex who have turned their lives with God's help. there are fantastic testimonies that are standing true and for years. don't believe everything that the culture tells you. the popular culture based in immorality. just because you love someone doesn't mean that the relationship is okay with the Lord. you can love another person's spouse or feel lust that you say is love, so- it's wrong. you can be attached to someone and call it love or try to make it sanctioned under God and it isn't. people "love" all kinds of things that are not alright with God. either He is the source of truth or people in the flesh, in the world are. a verse doesn't have to have the word homosexual in it directly to refer to it. loving God above it all and worshipping Him in Spirit and in Truth is the bottom line. you have to look at the perversion and promiscuity in the gay culture to be realistic. also all of the depression and anger and rejection. it is big image machine that is manufacturing cultural ideologies and all sorts of manipulations to change the way society thinks. especially when writing and producing things like tv programs and movies with the full and intelligent design to change the way people think. and so much of it is so immoral right off the bat. it's so easy for backslidders or gay men and women to accuse someone of hating or being bigots all of that hostility on their part to just switch focus. accusing anyone who won't get with their program. sometimes in many ways the gay and lesbian culture really looks and acts like a cult. after all you can notice that the word cult is in culture. and they do a humongous amount of mind control even to themselves. that's the premise right? "be OPEN minded". how about "bringing every thought into captivity and subjecting it unto Christ"? "Let this mind be in you, which is also in Christ Jesus."? do you want gay leaders and the people who are guilt tripped into feeling horrible about themselves if they agree with God over a culture to be considered equal or superior to God? the question isn't does Jesus love someone who is gay. the question is does someone love Jesus and submit and believe regarding what He mandates about gay/lesbian? a man can't be the wife of another man and a woman can't be the husband of another woman. marriage is a design from God and reflects Him and Christ's relationship to the church. gay doctrine and gay bondage is not the summary. God is. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 282 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.158.210.78 |
Listen PF...when you haven't any sin in your life and when you become perfect, then by all means point your finger at everyone else..I have read enough on these threads from "Holy Rollers" like you- to know that you have no idea what God thinks- who God may be- nor should you be telling anyone what is wrong and what is right... Work on your life-let others deal with their situations as they wish and quit sterotyping..We will never grow as a people or a nation if we continue to carry prejudice and pass judgement-which happens to be the favorite pass time of many such as yourself! Oh and NO HE DIDN"T! | ||
| osakadan Junior Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.235.100 |
you have to look at the perversion and promiscuity in the gay culture to be realistic. also all of the depression and anger and rejection. Perversion and promiscuity - how many christian leaders have been caught for their adultery? Show me any pub/bar on a Friday/Saturday night and I will show you promiscuity. It is not the exclusive domain of gay people. Rejection - You mean rejection of the religion bigoted , narrow minded little idiots like you present? Anger - at the attitudes of the bigoted , narrow minded little idiots like you? You deal in stereotypes pf and needto look at the real picture. There are plenty of happy homosexuals, who given the opportunity would jump at the chance of your version of white-picketed domesticity with the mate of their choice. | ||
| osakadan Junior Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.235.100 |
you have to look at the perversion and promiscuity in the gay culture to be realistic. also all of the depression and anger and rejection. Perversion and promiscuity - how many christian leaders have been caught for their adultery? Show me any pub/bar on a Friday/Saturday night and I will show you promiscuity. It is not the exclusive domain of gay people. Rejection - You mean rejection of the religion bigoted , narrow minded little idiots like you present? Anger - at the attitudes of the bigoted , narrow minded little idiots like you? You deal in stereotypes pf and needto look at the real picture. There are plenty of happy homosexuals, who given the opportunity would jump at the chance of your version of white-picketed domesticity with the mate of their choice. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
OSAKADAN: Look in the mirror and release all your anger on the man in front of you. Point your first finger at him and SCREAM AT HIM!!!!! You are a MORON, DUNCE, IDIOT,STUPID and a BONE HEAD. Then you will feel better. Well, you have never said anything to prove your point except using the usual phrases to describe anyone who does not approve the homosexual behaviour. Let us go in front of the Judge and present our views. The judge will ask you your position. You will point your finger at me that I am a Bigot etc. Then he will ask me why I am there. I will document everything that I write here along with the pain and suffering inflicted by my assistant. She was heavily involved in the Feminist, Gay & Lesbian Political activists. They were all involved in inflicting pain in my life. The Judge will dismiss your charges. You have nothing to prove. Christians are not the perfect ones. If anyone claims so, he has to look more closely at himself. Anyway, there are many hypocrites in the Church. They do not in anyway substitute or make the homosexuals better or more perfect. Everyone is a sinner. I do sympathize with the battles every homosexual is going through. If not there would not be many suicides. The struggles of homosexuals is real and it is for the Christians to be compassionate towards them. I do not condemn them. I must admit that I do not have the compassion I must have towards them which is wrong. This is my own struggle. If you accuse me as Bigot for providing Scientific facts, you have a serious problem. Everything I write about homosexuality is based on scientific facts. They are all reported. I am the last person to admit that I am perfect.Who are you to Judge me? You are not God. Here are the facts: Homosexual behaviour is a Psychosexual disorder which can be healed. No one is born as a homosexual. There are life situations and environmental factors which are conducive to chose the homosexual lifestyle. Homosexual lifestyle is very dangerous to the self as well as those around them. I have known several successful professionals who have devastated their children's lives by leaving their spouse to live with thier homosexual partners. Homosexual lifestyle will destroy the family and if it continues, will destroy the country. | ||
| ihavesinned Intermediate Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.197.219.40 |
"you read Ephesians or how about Corinthians where God states to us by His Spirit through the Word, "the adulterer, the homosexual, the greedy and the immoral cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" I found this little blurb about the book of Corinthians: "Author: 1 Corinthians 1:1 identifies the author of the Book of 1 Corinthians as the Apostle Paul. Date of Writing: The Book of 1 Corinthians was written in approximately 55 A.D. Purpose of Writing: The Apostle Paul started the church in Corinth. A few years after leaving the church, the Apostle Paul heard some disturbing reports about the Corinthians church. The church was full of pride, the church was excusing sexual immorality, spiritual gifts were being used improperly, and there was rampant misunderstanding of key Christian doctrines. The Apostle Paul wrote 1 Corinthians in an attempt to restore the Corinthian church to its foundation – Jesus Christ." So you see, God did not write Corinthians, Paul wrote it to chastise the immoral and sexually deprave christians in his own church! Apparently, Paul called himself an apostle, even though he never even met Jesus. Right?}} | ||
| ihavesinned Intermediate Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.197.219.40 |
"The only God approved sexual expression is between a man and a woman within the context of marriage." And only missionary posistion. Anything else would be uncivilized. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
RACHEL: I apologise for pointing fingers at you. I do not like Bush. But, what he said is important. He said,"If you are not with me you are against me". This is a profound statement with which all of can relate to. I was only giving facts about the dangerous lifestyles. When you began to ridicule me and it sounded like an attack. That is when i made the assumption. Bottom line is no christian can condone the homosexual behaviour.As christians we cannot condemn the homosexuals either. Jesus was asked to condemn the woman who was caught in adultery. He asked a Sinless man to throw the first stone at her. They all left. Finally, He told her, I do not condemn you either. Go and sin no more.It is true that Jesus personally did not mention anything about homosexuality. Apostle Paul wrote to Romans I guess: Stay away even from any appearance of Evil. Does not homosexual behavour sound evil to you? God created Adam and Eve and commanded them to procreate and fill the earth. This means, God created only sex between a man and a woman.In Genesis alo we read that Lot was asked to release the men who stayed with him. Homosexuality prevailed then and it was a sin in the sight of God. Well, Adultery, fornication and homosexuality are all sexual sins. The only God approved sexual expression is between a man and a woman within the context of marriage. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.129 |
RacheL; Jesus has called you and me to be the salt of the earth and light to the world. How can we do this? 1) We cannot and should not compromise with sin 2) Love the sinner and hate the sin. It is easily said than done.It is tough. It is time for all of us to join hands and bring those who are in darkness into the light. Why? America is the best and the only hope for the world. We have been assigned the responsibility of a Policeman for freedom, morality and individual rights whether we like it or not. If America goes down, the world will go down. There are forces working within as well as without to destroy this country. Islamofascism and Communism are now indistinguishable. They are outside forces which want to destroy america. Within the country also there are forces which are at work to destroy this country. what are they: 1) ACLU 2)The Democratic Party 3) Pornography 4)Illegal Drugs 5) Illegal Immigration 6) Homosexuality. I will explain later | ||
| osakadan Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.235.100 |
America is the best and the only hope for the world   You are seriously delusional inkorrect. Have you considered physciatric help? | ||
| ihavesinned Intermediate Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.197.219.40 |
Oooh, I have a list too! Here are a few more evil forces working to destroy America... 1) Brainwashing/Propaganda/Lies. 2) Overzealous nationalism. 3) Sexually repressed hypocrits such as the ones listed on the anti-gay hypocrisy thread. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23387.html?1153379210 4) Poor education . 5) Poor fiscal policy. 6) Poor foreign policy. 7) Politicization of science. 8) Television, religion, pollution, inflation, racism, sexism, homophobia, cancer, diabetes, AIDS, influenza, McDonalds, imports, outsourcing, foreign investment in American currency, unions, lobbyists, deforestation, speed limits, crazy people running free, etc. | ||
| bluewater2 Intermediate Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 268 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.91.232.230 |
In think that inkorrekt is, well, incorrect. Christianity is a far larger pox than homosexuality. That is for darn sure. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.124 |
OSAKADAN: Look in the mirror and release all your anger on the man in front of you. Point your first finger at him and SCREAM AT HIM!!!!! You are a MORON, DUNCE, IDIOT,STUPID and a BONE HEAD. Then you will feel better. Then you will look smarter. If you hate America, you are FREE to leave the country and leave us alone. You will be very happy. Only problem is you will not find another country like the USA. So, we are stuck with FOOLS like you. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 130.253.33.124 |
OSAKADAN: Look in the mirror and release all your anger on the man in front of you. Point your first finger at him and SCREAM AT HIM!!!!! You are a MORON, DUNCE, IDIOT,STUPID and a BONE HEAD. Then you will feel better. Then you will look smarter. If you hate America, you are FREE to leave the country and leave us alone. You will be very happy. Only problem is you will not find another country like the USA. So, we are stuck with FOOLS like you. | ||
| rachelengland Intermediate Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 283 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 4.159.113.41 |
THANK GOD FOR PEOPLE LIKE OSAKADAN! This world would be a scary place if people like "promises firm and inkorrect" were left to run it... All those who don't follow their brand of christianity- would probably be put in gas chambers. Only the perfect, holy, christians would be allowed to live and speak a life of freedom....R | ||
| osakadan Member Username: osakadan Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 58.188.235.100 |
Ignorance----opps, that should be inkorrekt....can you actually read? Where did I say I hate America? I actually like much about America, I just don't think it is the best or only hope for the world. And neither is my country. inkorrekt....please find a psychiatrist and a reading teacher while you are at it. | ||
| freedom43 Junior Member Username: freedom43 Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 129.33.119.12 |
Based on his rhetoric, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised by inkorrekt’s mention and reliance on “scientific research” conducted by Paul Cameron’s Family Research Institute. Folks need to know that Cameron was booted out of the American Psychological Association, and his work has been repudiated by the American Sociological Association and Canadian Psychological Association and many other experts. A judge ruled noted that Cameron “made misrepresentations to this Court.” Do a little research and I think you will find that Cameron is nothing more than a hatemonger who twists information to try to fulfill his anti-gay agenda. http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron.html Inkorrekt also sites Joseph Nicolosi founder of National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) – a group that touts conversion or reparative therapy for gays -- another organization that has no credibility. Experts, such as the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, all agree that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and that so-called “reparative therapy” aimed at altering gay peoples’ orientations does not work and may, in fact, be harmful. It’s time for folks to give it up and admit it doesn’t work. Heck – even Charles Socarides, one of Nicolosi’s cohorts at NARTH, has an openly gay son! I would like to give inkorrekt the benefit of the doubt on the employment issue. But, based on his skewed view of the world, who knows what really happened? In 34 States in this country, it is currently perfectly legal to fire someone simply based on their sexual orientation. In 44 states, it is legal to do so based on gender identity. Inkorrect could likely have fired his lesbian assistant for no reason if he wanted, and she would have had no recourse. It happens all the time. Here are some examples: http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/documentingdiscrimination.pdf Courts have even fact ruled that harassment based solely on a person’s sexual orientation is not unlawful under Title VII. Regardless, some employers are getting smart and realizing that orientation and gender identity have NOTHING to do with job performance and have policies in place to protect folks from harassment and discrimination on the job. I have trouble understanding how inkorrekt’s assistant’s orientation would have anything to do with him losing his job unless he just couldn’t leave her alone to do her job. Perhaps he repeatedly made an issue of her being a lesbian, harassed her and repeatedly tried to point out the “error of her way.” That happens a lot. Maybe he told her all she needed was a good man. (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard one!) I hope he didn’t do that. Regardless, I have empathy for him for losing his job. But, if he was harassing her……well, I would argue he deserved it. | ||
| egk New member Username: egk Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 75.60.197.175 |
Inkorrekt also sites Joseph Nicolosi founder of National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) – a group that touts conversion or reparative therapy for gays -- another organization that has no credibility. Experts, such as the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, all agree that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and that so-called “reparative therapy” aimed at altering gay peoples’ orientations does not work and may, in fact, be harmful. It’s time for folks to give it up and admit it doesn’t work. Heck – even Charles Socarides, one of Nicolosi’s cohorts at NARTH, has an openly gay son Actually, the experts do not all agree. Dr. Robert Spitzer, the psychiatrist who spearheaded the drive to remove homosexuality from the list of mental illness now believes that some well motivated homosexual can now change. He still supports Gay rights and is an atheist of Jewish background. His controversal paper was published in the peer-reviewed "Archives of Sexual Behavior," Vol. 32, No. 5,' October 2003, Likewise, Dr. Nicholas Cummings, a past president of the APA (Psychological), reports that he has practiced both Gay affirming and "re-orientation" therapies with Homosexuals. Of those choosing the latter therapy, Cummings reports about a 20% success rate. Dr. Cummings has also been very critical of the APA's "anti-repative therapy" statement stating that it is based on political correctness and not science. Gays, he believes, have the right to choose whatever type of therapy they want. Whether it is to attempt to affirm and strengthen one's gay identity or to attempt to change one's orientation. And what difference does it make if Socarides' son is openly gay? I personally have a friend who attempted to change his gay orientation and failed. I also have a friend who attempted this and did change. Through the latter, I met a man who while still having a homosexual orientation, achieved celibacy through sexaholics annonymous. I find it ironic that many who shout "diversity" refuse to acknowledge the existence or the rights of the last two men. EGK | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 74.92.215.34 |
FREEDOM43:Here we go again with political correctness. Yes, those who criticise and diapprove h omosexual behaviour are condemned by the Elites who regulate Science. Junk Scientists get raises, promotions, titles and grants. Prof. Peter Duesberg worked in the same lab as Dr. Fauci who plagiarized data. He is avery well established molecular biologist. Since he challenged the elites, he has been denied grants etc. This is the condition of Science. Science has been hijacked by Evolution. there is no more good science. Alright show me the GAY GENE. I will accept your theories. Till the time Gay gene is discovered, Dr. Cameron and Nicolisi are credible. | ||
| ihavesinned Intermediate Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 67.168.179.137 |
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