| Author | Message | ||
     40days40years Junior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.30.68 |
Could it be their modeled after authoritarian groups in Korea like Cho's ? | ||
| dust Junior Member Username: dust Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Good point and the question really is WHAT is the real goal of the cell group? I think the answer lies in UNIFORMITY, and PEOPLE COUNT. Even if it starts out with "good intentions" to grow the Body of Christ, by it's very nature of uniformity, it requires everyone to operate in the gift of evangelism, and makes little room for the ebb and flow of the Holy Spirit. The network structure boxes people in and under tight controls, not allowing people to be in relationship first and foremost with their SAVIOR and in counsel with the Holy Spirit, but loyalty is to the cell leader in a hierarchy that man just is not built to carry out. The other HUGE problem is because of this UNIFORMITY, one wrong teaching can turn the WHOLE SHIP on the wrong course, and it's difficult, maybe impossible to turn the ship around. And EVERYONE IS ON THE SHIP. | ||
| 40days40years Junior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.129.226 |
So when a guy likes Murrell catches a vision what makes him lust? The concept of a cell group is kind of nice in an American environment. You have big impersonal churches, and why not have some casual home cell groups where people can get together and fellowship in a casual way and get to know one another ? That is good but?? This approach is not In this approach the cell group is run like a business and is a means of control, it is not casual and is not American or very Godly. To take something that is suppose to be casual an turn it into a system of control is sin especially for anyone who has been connected to sheperding groups or movements like Maranatha or EN. Like I said the idea of having home groups is great but once you start demanding folks bring in new visitors or start reporting people who did not show up? Your in sin. Why not be normal and have a church with differant home groups for differant tastes? Let folks visit differant groups and find one they like. If some home groups want to specialize in prayer or some in evangelism or what ever, let them and whatever you do, don't impose some teaching lesson from the top down on them. This Asian Cho model is like crack cocaine for a movement like EN and it is shameful for an EN leader to promote the Cho model (many say the Cho church is extremely cultish and we do not want that do we?), they should know better and there is no excuse. IT IS JUST WRONG! Movements like this EN thing have enough control issues already. | ||
| 40days40years Junior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.129.226 |
In the article it was said that the differance between the Cho church with home groups or Life groups or cell groups... and an American church with similar small groups? In Cho's church the church revolves around the cell groups in America the cell groups revolve around the local church. Give me the casual American model any day where the home groups are casual and not meant to be tools of control with cell group Nazi leaders. Of course EN adopted the Asian Cho model. Go figure. | ||
| ginger1 New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.218.215 |
Problem with VCF and EN cell group. SOme have used it truly for cell group, prayers and bible studies. But some they used it to discuss about Businesses like Trevoca in the Philippines. Some was used for raising funds. Some was used for micro management of people's lives. So far, I have not attended One cell group that is a good one during the time when I was in Phil's church or even Dave' Soto church. Preaching/teaching is pretty bad. Just simply junk. A waste of my time. I have not met one person who is spiritually mature enough to handle a cell group. Even till today. Couple of years ago I was invited to a cell group here in EN, run by the filipinos in San Jose Ca. You would think these people were new in Christ, when they start to preach about Salvation. People there were already born again for more than 10- 15 years. It was a BORE. People who handle cell group wanted the title "Cell Leaders" . Its all about titles in their small world. They want to be known in their little world. Its Self promotion mostly. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
"Cell groups" would be all right if you had leaders who actually followed the biblical model of humility and servant hood. John Wesley is generally credited with originating the practice with his Methodist societies which were, in the beginning, basically just "cell groups" within the Anglican Church. But the way they are practiced with hyper-authoritarianism is clearly both unbiblical and spiritually abusive. | ||
| ginger1 New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.218.215 |
mcmstaff - "Cell groups" would be all right if you had leaders who actually followed the biblical model of humility and servant hood. Well, the problem is that its the opposite. Its self promotion and titles. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Ginger1, you are absolutely correct. That was my point, though perhaps poorly made. | ||
| proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 58.69.26.161 |
Hello, I saw this thread about cell group and posted a new discussion page outside this folder. I hope there'll be more discussions about this type of "ministry". | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1377 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
I have been in the cellgroup thing foe many, many years. already since my first days of beeing a believer. one of the first cell groups i attended was a group of many young people with different church background. we had catholics, lutherans, evangelicals and view charismatics, and it was a wonderfull time. Later some friends and I who have been attraced a lot by NOLR (i understand this now) started a cellgroup and we had the most strange manifestations (believing it way the Holy Spirit). from this we started a church, which broke soon, after the suicide of the young "pastor" who was my best friend. later i have been in bibleschool in Ulf Ekmans "Word of Life" in Sweden. all the studends HAD to attend a cellgroup. it was a lot of controle involved in it, because the leaders reported back to the church if we did not attend. in fact the "cellgroup" was a joke because all we did was babbling in tongues for the issues that the church leadership gave us. so in fact we where used as "prayer machine" for the issues of the Word of Life church. As if this would work...  when i came back to Austria, i started a cellgroup by my own. and in the beginning it also was just another "sermon" centered little pulpit (which i am ashame of now). but after a while - with the help of some friends - we started to be more relaxed. We had a very short time of singing, prayer and everyone, who liked, was involved to say something little from his heart out of the scripture. the center of this group developed more in beeing a place to meet friends, have community and fun, eat together... many lovely people came. the group grew a lot and within some view months, our homes where already too small... we had many different people, also difficult people, but there was so much love and respect for each other, that we all think back with many warm feelings to this time. this was the time, when we moved further to Italy to pioneer a church there (also based on cellgroups). unfortunately, the church that i left, did not behave responsible, and the big cellgroup broke appart. they took the wrong people into "leadership" (which we did not really have before) and there came preasure, but no real pastoral care for the individuals form the church leaderships side, so soon the people left the cell... | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1378 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
in Italy we started many cellgroups all over the region, because out of the fact, that the people where living far away from each other. other cellgroups joined. on sunday we had church service in a central place. we even had bibleschool decentralized over the region. i was not happy with it, because there was too much preasure on me and my family. we had to travel too much over many years, and i suffered burnout. we invited frineds from HP Capetown to introduce their (succesfull) cellgroup system to us. i was in capetwon before (just after bibleschool) and the cells where big, and there was much laughter fun and friendship (no preaching and no little pulpit pimps) but also much controle (the cellleaders had to fill out forms about attendancy, etc.. we tried to introduce this system to our church. they liked it first, but soon it became a burden and they didnt want it anymore. my heart waas for the friendship and prayer thing, and not for the controle thing. however - they didnt like it. this - together with the strange Europe conference of MSI/EN in Austria made many people leave the church. too much controle. to less freedom. too much similarity to a cult. i think that cellgroups are wonderfull if the focus is on friendship, on support (for the individuals) on prayer. However - celleaders and pastors often tend to go tinto the "succes" and "purpose-driven" crap where they measure their spirituality and sucess with the growth and size of their church. this leads to preasure, to "management". we do not need managers in the churches. we need sheperds who share the love and the hart of Christ! thats the main point, in my opinion... and i do agree: EN has a very, very problematic and unresolved past in a cultic movement. EN has a big controle problem. therefore the "discipleship groups" how they call it are dangerous and unhealthy. | ||
| proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 124.106.176.109 |
My heart grieves with you (robert_unknown) on the death of your pastor friend. I also had a friend who committed suicide because of schizophrenia but his case was connected to his involvement with VCM/EN. His family said that he was publicly humiliated during the preaching. There were many issues that the VCM/EN leaders brought up regarding this kid. But who knows if the issues were really true. It's really sad to hear that most of VCM/EN members inside the cell group are suffering from spiritual distress. I still pray for my cell members who're still with VCM/EN. I'm thankful to God that I'm not a cell leader anymore. Yes, I was also a former member of VCM/EN (5 years, fulltime) and personnel for 2 years. I was there when the cell group was just starting; the initial design was based on Paul Yonggi Cho's concept but later on the G12 was added. The cell system eventually corrupted the normal Bible studies affecting even the regular "church ministries". Relationships also suffered when members were divided according to location, gender, age, and "gifting". Participation became mandatory; the term "homegrown" was used to differentiate new loyal members from old "shaky" members, Steve Murrell's One2One booklet came out and was applied for faster "discipleship". When I decided to leave VCM/EN it was the saddest experience I had with a "church". Today I'm fully convinced that everything that VCM/EN added in its system - cell group ministry, "gifting" and "calling" roles, the "five-fold ministry", "accountability", "discipleship", etc – are opposing sound doctrine. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1379 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
thanks "proveallthings". I grieve with you for your friend, who was humiliated even by the people who called themnselves his brothers... who sad is this! concerning ENs strange cellgroups system: one cannot "organize" friendship... it has to grow naturaly. groups like EN try to organize it based on their views about what is valuable and what not. in fact they want to play God by this discerning, which unfortunately mostly is based on superficion. They dont understand what is valuable for God, because He is not atracted by they outward appearance of people, but solely of their hearts. Gods "sharpies" are the gentle, the honest, the ones who love him and their brethren. The broken ones. Not necesarily the guy with the biggest mouth, the biggest income, etc... so they often destroy things that He wants to do by their false understanding of Him and His ways. | ||
| jayhernandez Intermediate Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 464 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
Robert you said "one cannot "organize" friendship... it has to grow naturaly". How true this is! Sad but true! I catch myself thinking I can nurture friendships. What would you say about that? It never seems to be matched with the same amount of water to watch the relationship grow. I believe people are scared of getting close. Now imagine using methodology??? Just stay outside the method, look like a good friend, and you've maintained your space. Even if you fall for the method you can't have real friendships with some sort of methodology for friendships. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1380 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
i do believe that we can "invest" into friendships with kindness and what God has given to us. Individualy. I do not believe that an organized religion can "organize" friendships, by bringing "the right people" together into ie. a cellgroup. it would be better to let a cellgroup just grow, how it grows, and not take people out and put others in. cellgroup shall be fun. sometimes pastors "manage" to much and tread cellgroups/churches like companies. or branches from companies. this does not work. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come Member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
The best way to describe EN's leaders are characterized by the lessons from Saul and david. Many En leaders operated under the principles of Saul. Saul looked at the outward appearance of men when the Lord told Samuel that God looks at the heart of people. Saul believed in sacrifice over obedience which is witchcraft because it is rebellion and EN leaders are plagued with this spirit. Or at least that's how they were when I was present. In fact as most probably know that the spirit of the antichrist is inside this ministry. I am truly sorry to hear about how En leaders have robbed many on this meassage board. I agree friend ships will come naturally not forced. En's problems were that they are based in self effort not the holy spirit and that's why they don't lasts anything they do as well as having to use man made tactics of manipulation and control to try to create something spiritual. What extremely dangerous types of thinking. I truely believe that they have fallen into the babylonian spirit of trying to conquer and bring dominion under them. I have often wondered is EN's model church going to be a picture of the harlot? | ||
| proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 124.106.176.209 |
Relationship becomes an issue when a VCF/EN member tries to leave a cell group. Loyal VCF/EN members will bombard the wouldbe abandoner with words like "we're a family" and "you're special" just to win back a brother/sister. If encouraging phrases won't convince the wouldbe abandoner, condemnation will be the next approach. The wouldbe abandoner will soon hear condemning remarks like "you're demonized", "you'll be cursed", and "you're backsliding" – an obvious shame tactic to scare the fellow. Then loyal VCF/EN members will end the cruel insults with encouraging phrases again like "I'll pray for you", "we still love you", and "may God enlighten you". I received those "sandwich encouragement" (a term used by VCF/EN leaders to describe the approach) when I tried to express my desire to leave the "church". Friendship isn't genuine there; it's all mechanical. Yes there's an "investment" and "Big brother/sister" practice but everything has been pre-programmed by the cell group principle of networking (upline/downline schema). | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2107 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 76.229.90.98 |
Provealthings , yes thats true, a friend of mine who recently left VCF, they are still doing the same exact thing to her, even after she left. Shame tactic or that she is a backslider. When the truth is, she spoke against the corruption in her church, which is VCF Alabang. Relationship there is based on your loyalty to the ministry. Its not real friendship. | ||
| pilgrim Advanced Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 605 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
UNBIBLICAL PYRAMID STRUCTURE OF MANY CELL GROUPS Many cell groups just have an unbiblical pyramid structure for example: 1)An apostle might have a cell group with senior pastors forming the first tier of the pyramid. 2) Senior pastors might have one cell group each under the submission of "The Apostle" 3) Senior pastors pets are are also leaders of a cell group under the submission of the senior pastor and apostle and so on. The leaders at the top of the pyramid ie the apostle and senior pastors/elders/pastors, would sometimes get a lot of perks like free travel and financial support while other cell group leaders at the bottom of the pyramid would get nothing or very little as a financial reward. (Anyway I think that christians should learn a trade or profession to be able to work and to earn a living like the apostle Paul did.) This structure is no biblical. House churches should be independent with leaders and other christians directly under the spiritual cover of Jesus Christ alone, otherwise if the top of the pyramid is a cult leader the whole structure becomes a cult. Leaders should only guide and serve but never control. Only worldly cult leaders demand blind submission. Godly leaders would just guide you to go directly under the cover of Jesus Christ alone and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. (Message edited by pilgrim on September 25, 2007) | ||
| proveallthings New member Username: proveallthings Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 210.213.192.63 |
Ginger, separating from VCF or the cell group is not easy. Sandwich encouragement (praise-shame-praise) is constantly applied to a wouldbe abandoner. The sandwich practice has also influenced the cell members and they eventually become clones of their VCF leaders. That is now a cell culture (pun intended). | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2125 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
I was asked to join an EN church here in San Jose a few months ago. As I visited one of their kid's birthday party, some of the filipinos that I know still act like have the same old VCF attitude. Still following the pastors around, still kissing up to the pastor. Still acting insecure and they want me to join that ???? | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2126 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.72 |
They have this unsatiable desire to try to please the Leaders or the Senior pastors of the church. They cared so much how these leaders think. The insecurity just literally gag me. I am so glad that the people who left VCF did not fall for the shame - praise tactic. They are not insecure as they used to any longer, trying to please these VCF pastors and leaders, instead, they were disgusted of the corruption of this ministry. Every businessmen who left VCF were disgusted of the corruption, so the shame - praise tactic does not work any longer. It will only work for people who are still insecure, needing these leaders praises and approval. |
