| Author | Message | ||
     the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Jesusnameonly . . . Oneness . . . UPCI Are these religions the same? Or just more division found within the fabric of pentecostalism? When the pentecostal religion was invented by the homosexual Charles Fox Parham, he gave the religion its distinctives (division and scandal). These three are actually three separate religions each with its own doctrinal statement. In 1913, a Canadian evangelist came to California to preach at white pentecostalism’s revival meeting. <sidebar> . . . one must remember that little or nothing is sacred to pentecostalism beyond the cash register. Names, dates, and even histories are confused. The Canadian’s name is listed as Mcwhorter, Mclister, McLester, Mcleter. And the dates are given from 1913 through 1917. I give little or no credit to anything pentecostal. You may pick or choose any name, date combination that makes you happy <sidebar>. The only thing all histories agree on is the sermon and that it took place in white pentecostalism’s (Assembly of God) revival. All agree the sermon was based on Acts 2:38 and all agree it sucked! The Canadian was asked to leave the pulpit and not come back. On the way to the door, he was stopped by Frank Ewart. Mr. Ewart begged for the sermon. Over the next few years, Mr. Ewart refined the sermon and started his own (Assembly of God) church. In 1919, Mr. Ewart thought he had the support to force the Assembly of God (white pentecostalism) to baptize in Jesusnameonly. To that end, Mr. Ewart introduced a resolution at the General Assembly of the Assembly of God to force all pentecostals to be re-baptized in jesusnameonly. The resolution failed. Mr. Ewart took his small group down the street and split from the Assembly of God. Mr. Ewart paid his deacon to re-baptize him in jesusnameonly. Then Mr. Ewart re-baptized the remainder of his one-hundred or so church members. Jesusnameonly pentecostals are Trinitarians. Most of their doctrinal statement is just rehashed Assembly of God doctrine. So where did Oneness come from? Where did United pentecostal Churches, International come from? Oneness pentecostalism was invented in 1956 by David Bernard. Writing in his epic work, Oneness Theology, Mr. Bernard concluded that if ‘oneness’ is true, Jesus Christ is his own daddy. Oneness pentecostalism tends to be small privately owned churches. Much of Oneness doctrine is standard pentecostal fair with the exception of the Godhead. Oneness is deep into legalism, requiring its women to wear long dresses and no make-up. Men are required to wear shirt sleeves that cover the elbow. Because of private ownership of its churches, Oneness pentecostalism is awash in scandals. UPCI was invented in the late ‘40's. Again, names and dates vary widely. However, all agree the religion began when a lady donated her orphanage to her pastor. The preacher saw it as a means to make money. Using the children much like pawns, he was able to get several churches to unite to support him and his orphanage. UPCI is not related to Oneness, nor Jesusnameonly pentecostalism. While much of its doctrine is purely white pentecostalism, its doctrine on the Godhead is taken from the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
The tract “60 Questions on the Godhead” is used by UPCI as its doctrinal statement. The actual name of that tract is “What you should know about the Trinity.” It was written by the WB&TS (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Bible Students, etc.) for the expressed purpose of disproving the deity of Jesus Christ. The tract includes such brilliant questions as “Is the word Trinity in the Bible?” Omni-presence is not in the Bible. Does that mean God is not present always? Omniscient is not in the Bible. Does that mean God is not all knowing? Millennium is not in the Bible. Does that mean Jesus will not reign for one-thousand-years? The three religions are in no way related. Each has its own aberrant doctrinal statement. Each is owned by a different group. The only similarity is Acts 2:38. As I have proven in past posts, there is not one single example of a gentile ever being told to quote, unquote “repent” and quote, unquote “be baptized for remission of sin” quote, unquote in “jesusnameonly.” More damning to all three groups is the fact those people in Acts 8:12 and Acts 19:1 were baptized in jesusnameonly and were lost. Sources: 1. Oneness Theology, by David Bernard 1956. 2. UPCI.ORG 3. The Azusa Street Revival. 4. Who is who in pentecostalism. 5. Jesusnameonly Churches, E. Calvin Beisner. 6. “What you should know about the Trinity” The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. 7. “60 Questions on the Godhead” UPCI.ORG 8. Notes from the 1919 General Assembly of the Assembly of God. 9. The King James Version of God’s (w)holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages. <sidebar> one final sidebar . . . recently the Assembly of God began courting T.D. Jakes. Mr. Jakes is a Oneness pentecostal. He owns his own religion and makes millions of dollars annually. The AoG would love to have him as one of their money makers. To that end the AoG recently changed its doctrinal statement from person to manifestation on the Godhead to mimic Jakes teachings. <sidebar> | ||
| coppertree New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.129.80.164 |
Hi! I have a question, in Oneness, what does being baptized , or filled with Jesus joy mean ? Thank you.} | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
M(r)(s). Coppertree: I have no idea. I have never heard the expression used. More than likely, the phrase refers to being baptized in the Holy Ghost, a pervertion of scripture. | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
JESUSname ARE NOT TRINITERIANS they belive only in JESUS that HE IS THE FATHER HE IS THE SON HE SI THE HOLY GHOST your "findings are very flawed trinterism came about abut through the teachings of a black man who taught this they also came out from the assembly of GOD when the asseblies would not accept their doctrine. GET IT RIGHT IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAY IT | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
i meant oneness came about through the teaching of a black man ... for some reason i couldnt get it to edit post | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. Arron: You need to read your religion's own history. William Seymour, the one-eyed black man you refer to, founded the Church of God in Christ (black pentecostalism). Try providing a verifiable source for your ranting. | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
tatm you stated that JESUS NAME PENTECOSTAL ARE TRINITERIANS,, THEY ARE NOT NEITHER IS APOSTOLIC PEOPLE THEY ALL BELIEVE IN JESUS NAME ONLY . i am triniterian pentecostal . i believe in THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST, william seymore did not found the church of GOD IN and CHRIST andyes he was oneness but pentecostals believe in triniterian | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
tatm are you reall a person that called themselves ... not? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Sources . . . sources . . . sources . . . sources. Please make them creditible. Or shut up! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Well, I believe TATM must have called himself. Or perhaps he hit his head on the sink in his bathroom where he had a "vision". He seems to be somewhat in flux with little capacity to answer questions. | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
then he must be ...not... as he still want answer any questions | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Come Mr. MCMSTAFF78: I will do God's job for him, at least a little. I was not recrutied to the ministry in high school with a promise of a free education as the Roman church does. You claim to be in contact with God, why are you two not talking? | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
old not.. no wonder we havent heard from you you go by a different name... ha ... same old no nothing about church doctrine | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
TATM, where did I claim anything? Again, I am not Roman Catholic, why do you keep injecting that into the discussion? This is an example of ad hominem fallacy. I'm disheartened that no one picked up on the allusions in my previous post. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Just a note: there is nothing new about Oneness doctrine, it is simply Sabellianism regurgitated, as are most "pentecostal" and other modern heresies. | ||
| arron Member Username: arron Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
mcm.. as you know i am pentecostal and i do not consider us as heresy | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Sorry, you should study Montanism. Unfortunately, if all you know is modern Pentecostalism, you have no perspective on which to judge its truth or error. Take a step back | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
mcm i have studied the orgins of the pentecostal movemneet that started in 1906 or shortly before in some cases. i do know that JESUS HIMSELF is our GOD and that we are not in error. there are pentecostals who go on exteme and so do other churches. there are baptist who will not allow open communion. you have to be a member of their church, there are baptist who will not baptise you unless you are ammmber of their church. there are methodist (weselyn) who have their rules as do other churches. who made you a judge of the pentecostal faith | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
You both are babbling like sitting hens. Oneness Theology was invented in 1956 by David Bernard. It in no way is simular to nor the same as previous hersies, sorry. David Bernard is easy enough to look up. As to baptising in jesusnameonly, it was first practiced by the Roman Church in Spain. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 119 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
tatm not.. as you are known or were known you are one mixed up crazy person | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
TATM, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Aaron, please be mindful of a concept known as "spiritual deception". Satan can pose as a angel of light, and his deceits are far more subtle than humans ever give him credit. Many here are examples of this. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
i knpw i am not spiritualy deceived. i am saved born again , sanctified and filled with THE HOLY GHOST i am covered with THE BLOOD OF JESUS | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
How do you know? The same way TATM "knows" he's been "called"? You see where that gets you. | ||
| coppertree New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.147.195.200 |
Maranatha Staff 78, In all fairness, you should tell them and you were in a oneness campus group on paid staff , and now are Greek Orthox.}} | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
Copper, MCM was not confessionally "oneness", although their baptismal formula certain was. Also, I am not Greek Orthodox. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
Copper, MCM was not confessionally "oneness", although their baptismal formula certain was. Also, I am not Greek Orthodox, and I fail to see how it would be relevant to the discussion. Thanks for your input. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Quoting: "I fail to see how it would be relevant to the discussion." End quote. It is as relevant as your badgering me for the same information. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 208.61.5.114 |
I'm "badgering" you for information regarding your "calling", which you have offered in support of your presentations. On the other hand, I've not resorted to anything other than the scriptures and historical facts in dealing with you. | ||
| anothertraveler New member Username: anothertraveler Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 24.106.9.237 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries, Your "facts" are a reworking of history and an expression of ignorance, while your overall attitude expresses superority and arrogance. However, it is funny that you feel you are being badgered.  "Oneness" did not begin in 1956. Ever heard of Jews? (Also, read the first commandment.) They believe in "Oneness", and one of the reasons so many of them flatly reject Christianity is the insistance of the trinity doctrine. If we as Christians were a little quicker to take the bible at fact value, and a little slower to argue over the nature of God (Paul said great is the mystery of godliness, yet we are sooo advanced that we reduce the great mystery into a couple paragraphs), we might actually find them coming to Jesus Christ. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3697 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.13.4 |
we should be baptised in THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST as JESUS TAUGH when peter was ssaying to be bapised in THE NAME OF JESUS he was speaking to jewish people who had not yet received JESUS. he , i believe was saying believe in WHAT JESUS SAID | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
"Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Let me make this as clear as possible. This only means in the authority of all three. Jesus is not the Father and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus said on the cross, "Why hast thou forsaken me." Who forsook him? You can't forsake yourself. So if Jesus was the Father did he forsake himself? I think not! It's just like the president sending you to go and do a certain thing, and saying, do this in the name of the president. The president is not telling you to say in the name of the president. He's just telling to go and do it by his authority. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3741 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
amen | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
This is for anothertraveler Look up the word one in the dictionary; it has more than one meaning. It can mean on in number, or one in unity. Jesus prayed to the Father and said, "Make thy disciples one, even as we are one." That is, make them one in unity as we are one in unity. When the wicked men in Genesis tried to build a tower that reached the heavens, God said, "The people have become one, and this they begin to do." One here means unity as in many other scriptures. You see that's why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus when he said God is my Father, because they said, "He says God is my Father, making himself equal with God." They knew Jesus was saying he was God, and Jesus was God. Amen! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 812 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). anothertraveler: You spend a great deal of time reading between the lines. As I keep telling Mr. Arron, place your fingers in your ears and re-read what I said. The Muslims believe in One God. The Jews believe in gods, plural (read your Bible). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints came about in the early nineteenth century. That religion believes in oneness of God. I said "oneness pentecostalism" was invented in 1956 by David Bernard. "Oneness pentecostalism" is a separate and distinct branch of religion. I did not rewrite history, your religion did to cover its lunacies. As to Mr. MCMSTAFF78, he is badgering. The overwhelming majority of his post are pure ad hominem. Sixteen other posters have asked him to name his religion. He has yet to respond. That is the meaning of troll. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1910 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
T(not)ATM - please present your evidence vis. your accusations. I am an Orthodox Christian, which is not synonymous with being Greek Orthodox, as anyone with passing understanding of the Orthodox Church would know. As to the "sixteen" posters, would you please elucidate me as to who they are and what posts they requested this information of me? You, on the other hand, have been asked more times than one can count (yes, that is hyperbole) to name your religious affiliation/organization; who has credentialed you as a "minister"; and where (i.e. what educational institution) you "earned" your doctorate. Your turn!!  | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3743 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
in post 812 tatm... in the post you said MUSLIMS believe in ONE GOD ... the jews believe in gods plural so now you are saying by thins that you believe in the muslim faith. whay did you not put the JEWS believe in GODS plural? the JEWISH GOD IS THE SAME AS the GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS the muslims worship a false god ( little g) a idol a moon god a demon god. there fore i take it on your own statement that you do not believe in THE GOD JEHOVAH , THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST, AND IN THE HOLY GHOST | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
"I said "oneness pentecostalism" was invented in 1956 by David Bernard. "Oneness pentecostalism" is a separate and distinct branch of religion. I did not rewrite history, your religion did to cover its lunacies." Sorry Pal, the bible clearly teaches that there are three seperate persons in the Godhead; read Hebrews 1:8, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom" That was the Father speaking about the Son. Can't you see, even the Father called the Son God; and we already know that the Father is God. That leaves us with the Holy Spirit. Okay do you need scripture to prove that the Holy Spirit is God. Okay I'll give it to you; Acts 5:3-4, "Satan hath filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land.....thou hast not lied to men, but unto God. The word God in itself only means divinity; even Moses knew this, Exodus 3:13, "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, the God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them; and God said unto Moses, "I AM THAT I AM." He already knew that divinity was speaking to him (God), but he didn't know his name, and one of the persons in the Godhead told him. Also read Genesis 1:26, and 3:22, "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us." Hello, if God (divinity) was only one, why would he say us? Do you still think were reading between the lines? The last time I checked, us is plural. You oness believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the same person. Read John chapter 17, and if you still believe that they are the same you need prayer. Jesus prayed to the Father friend, he didn't pray to himself. It's not that we are reading between the lines, but it's that you are spiritually blind! | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
"I said "oneness pentecostalism" was invented in 1956 by David Bernard. "Oneness pentecostalism" is a separate and distinct branch of religion. I did not rewrite history, your religion did to cover its lunacies." Sorry Pal, the bible clearly teaches that there are three seperate persons in the Godhead; read Hebrews 1:8, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom" That was the Father speaking about the Son. Can't you see, even the Father called the Son God; and we already know that the Father is God. That leaves us with the Holy Spirit. Okay do you need scripture to prove that the Holy Spirit is God. Okay I'll give it to you; Acts 5:3-4, "Satan hath filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land.....thou hast not lied to men, but unto God. The word God in itself only means divinity; even Moses knew this, Exodus 3:13, "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, the God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them; and God said unto Moses, "I AM THAT I AM." He already knew that divinity was speaking to him (God), but he didn't know his name, and one of the persons in the Godhead told him. Also read Genesis 1:26, and 3:22, "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us." Hello, if God (divinity) was only one, why would he say us? Do you still think we're reading between the lines? The last time I checked, us is plural. You oness believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the same person. Read John chapter 17, and if you still believe that they are the same you need prayer. Jesus prayed to the Father friend, he didn't pray to himself. It's not that we are reading between the lines, but it's that you are spiritually blind! | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
My apologies to my last post to apostolic truth ministries. This post is for anothertraveler, unless you don't believe that there are more than one person in the Godhead. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 816 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). kobegone: I don't know if you confused my synopsis of pentecostalism with my doctrinal statement or what. I am historic Orthrodox Christian. The claim many 'oneness' makes is that the God of Israel is one God. The statement is quiet false, especially when one reads the Bible. The Jew, (which is a modern invention, the original word meant a man of Judah), believed in a God of the forrest, a God of the hill and a God of the valley. Hence, God's commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3 (KJV). Notice the commandment uses the word 'gods, plural. The entire Old Testament was spent showing there is but one triune God over the universe. If you are interested in doing some research, you will find plenty of examples of the theory of oneness throughout all of history. Finis Jennings Dake, the author of the pentecostal Bible, found a nine part 'Trinity' in the Bible. Many oneness pentecostals try to turn the 'Trinity' into three gods or a three headed god. A false understanding of the 'triune' nature of God caused the early church fathers to further define the "Trinity" throughout early church history. One of my favorite questions to 'oneness' pentecostals is "who is the daddy of Jesus Christ?" According to David Bernard, IF you accept 'oneness', Jesus Christ is his own daddy! Ask one. I like to watch them as they try to explain it some other way. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3747 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST IS JEHOVAH. none of the holiness churches that i go to or attend say there are three GODS the baptist dont the holiness dont the methodist dont and so forth only the oneness and / or church of CHRIST bekieve that rot. we do not worship three GODS BUT ONE GOD WHO IS REVEALED IN THREE PERSONS ( NOT OFFICES ) GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST. YOU KNOW NOTHING OF PENTECOST EXCEPT WHAT YOU HAVE READ AGAINST PENTECOST I CAN SHOW YOU WHERE MANY THING HAVE BEEN WRITTEN AGAINST OR SAID AGAINST THE BAPTIST THE METHODIST EVEN THE NOTHINGNESS which you are apart of | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 820 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron: Quit babbling incoherently. Your religion was invented in 1906, end of conversation. I really don't care what your religion told you. Perhaps, you and Mr. MCMSTAFF78 could discuss the other religions you point to. | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
Good point ATM. Finis J. Dake explains the trinity perfectly, I have Dake's bible, and his God's plan for man. No, we don't serve three God's; we serve one God, which is made up of three seperate persons, with three seperate bodies, and me and you know that this is clear from the bible. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 822 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). kobegone: Tell me about the Dake's you have. How old is it? Was it written by Dake or Leon Bible? Or does it say? Dake's prior to about 1997 are filled with racials slurs and are worth a great deal of money to white supremacist. I brought my copy of Dake's Annotated Bible new in the box at a fleamarket for $5.00. I have been offer $250 for it. | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
Well, I've heard things like that, but I have the audio CD's with Dake speaking himself; it's 52 hours of teaching by Dake, and I can tell you for myself that I have never heard him use any racial slurs. He use the word negro, and colored people quite a bit, but I use the word negro and my grandmother used to say colored people, and we are African-Americans. I don't know how old the bible is. Leon Bible is mentioned in the beginning. But when I follow the notes, It is exactly what I heard Dake say; so if they have changed anything; maybe I just haven't came across it yet. If Dake was so racist as some say; why in the world would he get baptized in a black church, and he also preached in black churches. Like I said, I'm black and if I smelled one hint of Dake being racist, I would have stop listening to him a long time ago. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3750 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
tatm... qiut babbling yourself all i said was that i believeved and that the pentecostal church i go too believes in THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST. and my religion as you call it , but it is not a religion it is savation was started on the day of pentcost when THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN. you argue abour what dakes says and here is a black man that has told you he see no racial in dakes. dakes is not the only bible and besides it has the dakes commentary but it is kjv. and i only use the kjv i have other bible commentaries, that is the kjv bible with commentariesa added since you cant understand any thing. but i do not take all what the commentaries say in any of them i take what GODS WORD THE BIBLE KJV say about it and if the commentaries ( any of the ) say different i listen to GODS WORD AND not to the commentaries | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 966 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
Aaron, You wrote: and if the commentaries ( any of the ) say different i listen to GODS WORD AND not to the commentaries. The bible is an open ended book, and thus, it must be interpreted. You can not take a collection of writings, written to a specific person or audience, interpret it soley through what it says, and think that you always have the correct understanding. - We must understand the correct word usage with the syntax - We must understand the culture and social issues involved,plus all background issues as well as we can. - We must interpret, not from our cultural and demominational lense, but through an exhaustive critique. we can only apply the scriptures today, if we understand their original purpose. A simple example, 1 Corinthians: Paul was a real man in a real place in history, writing to a real church in a real place in history. We know that Paul received at least one lettter from the Elders of this church. Paul, in his Apostolic role, answers questions, and corrects bad doctrine and practices. There are interpretations that we derive when we fail to understand what was taking place, Conclusion: You statement sounds holy, but it is faulty, thus, the reason your theology is so warped at times. BTW, Pentecostalism IS a religion. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 829 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). kobegone: Are you familiar with Dr. Fredrick K. C. Price? He is the one who found the problems with pentecostalism. In fact, he has a rather long study entitled "Racism in the pentecostal church." There is substantial evidence that Dake was a KKK Grand Dragon. Not to mention court documents putting Dake in prison for taking a sixteen-year-old-girl accross state lines for immoral purposes. He pened his New Testament while in jail. You may still be able to find Dr. Price's letter to Dake Family Publishing discussing the racials slurs Dake makes in his Bible(interracial marriages, comes to mind first). The agreement with Dr. Price allowed Dr. Leon Bible to rewrite Dake's to remove the racial slurs. 1997? If I recall right, the Assembly of God lifted its ban on black leadership. William Seymour, the one-eye-black-man, who founded black pentecostalism (The Church of God in Christ) and Charles Fox Parham, founder of white pentecostalism (the Assembly of God) were racial antagonists from way back. Racicalism is/was the cornerstone of pentecostalism throughout its first century. | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
I'm am familiar with Dr. Price, but like I said, I've heard Dake speak verbally, and have never heard him say any racial slurs. Show me documents that he was a KKK, and I'll believe you. I came from a Pentecostal church, and it was just as mixed (racially) as can be; in fact, the pastor of the organization clearly said you can't be racist and go to heaven. Also there has been no evidence of the claims made against Dake, in fact I heard it most likely was a set up. But let me ask you a question: Have you ever sinned since you have been saved? Did you repent? Even if Dake did what they say he did; God can forgive his sin as well as yours. "There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." God has the power to forgive Dake's sin also, if he even committed that act. When you find a brother in a fault, restore him, but please don't send him to hell. "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garments spotted by the flesh." | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 65.61.102.143 |
(the_apostolic_truth_ministries) Indeed, the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded on the premise that all other Christian traditions are false. A teenager named Joseph Smith said he received that revelation in a vision in 1820. Over the next seven years, Smith said, he was visited several times by an angel named Moroni, son of Mormon, who guided him to gold plates buried in upstate New York. With the help of "seer stones" given to him by Moroni, Smith said he translated the plates into English. The nearly 6 million Mormons in the United States consider that translation, the Book of Mormon, a holy text, on par with the Bible. Its theology has some striking elements: Mormons hold that God and Christ have physical bodies. They believe that man can become God-like after death, a concept called ultimate deification. They also believe that heaven has more than one tier; only those baptized and married in a Mormon temple can achieve the most exalted realm. Mormons also believe in other Gods, NOT just one!! They don't teach that until way later like maybe even years... The lDS church came to be about 1830-1931 .. I use to be LDS.. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3834 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
yes the lds church has many weried doctrines | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 909 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). dreama: I had a cousin named Dreama. I don't recall Joseph Smith being a teenager at the time of his vision. All my reference works have him as later in life. The person in the vision was Joseph Smith's dead son by all accounts I have seen. The LDS are well known for rewriting history, tho. | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
Dreama is not my real name, just my username. Yes, I know the LDS church had a different way of thinking. I loved that church still do with all my heart. I won't go back, One thing those people know how to love with all there hreats. I go to a pentecostal church night now and some things wrong, I think. I just don't see the love there. I will find what I am looking I hope.. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 911 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). Dreama: I think you have a false concept of love. I agree that the LDS goes out of its way to . . . I don't know what word I am looking for. But it is not love. I would warn you to stay away from the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism. That religion has far more problems than the LDS. Having said that, I have a great deal of respect for Joseph Smith. By all accounts, when Smith got religion, he got religion. Every account I have read shows Joseph Smith turned 180 degrees when he got religion. He had a life changing experience, right or wrong (good or bad). Many religions would give their eye teeth to see people's lives changed the way Mr. Smith's life changed the day he got religion. For anyone who might be lurking, Joseph Smith had almost nothing to do with Mormonism. Mr. Smith was killed very shortly after founding that religion. Brigham Young set the pace for Mormonism. | ||
| oldpaths New member Username: oldpaths Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.166.127.231 |
I've been reading some of the posts here. First of all about the love thing. That is probably what all of us need to work on for it comes by the Holy Spirit but it is easy to let roots of bitterness cause us to lose that love. We really can't go by denominations to determine a good church any longer for I can visit a Baptist church and find love and go to another one and find trouble. As far as Pentecostals being a heresy, I kindly disagree with that one. What they teach is in the bible. To address the oneness Pentecostals, I believe the term baptized in the name of Jesus simply means baptized in the authority of Jesus. In the name of means in the authority of so whether the preacher says, Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Jesus doesn't really make any difference since it is the baptism into Jesus Christ that saves us not the water. What a beautiful thought though. Christ came so that we could be re-born, changed, refreshed, made new and be filled with the spirit. We are cleansed by the blood of Jesus and the washing of the water of the word. It is so beautiful. It is a shame that we have to nitpick on certain things and spoil all the good that He did for us. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 915 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Again, welcome M(r)(s). Oldpaths: Quoting: "As far as Pentecostals being a heresy, I kindly disagree with that one. What they teach is in the bible." End quote. What Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others teach is also in the Bible. Had you read the Bible, you would have known of three doctrines. (1. the doctrines of men; 2. the doctrines of the devil; and 3. the doctrines of God) The trick (If you will?) is knowing the difference. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3841 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm ... again give the answers to what was asked. .. what church , by nmae you belong to, who ordianed you, what doctorate do you hold and who confered it on you and also who by name ordained you. if you cant answer these questions then keep your mouth shut | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
(the_apostolic_truth_ministries) Joseph Smith? I am not sure about that have u read any thing about him? He married 22 women and may be more,. He cheated on his wife. There are so many stories about this. He started the Mormon church from what I learned in the lDS church, once a month we had a fast Sunday and then people would get a change to say there testimony and it always went like this, I believe this church is the true church of God and I believe in Joseph Smith thank God for him., Then after they are done they say all these things in the name of Jesus Christ. People say they believe in one God, thats not true at all. Its way more then meets the ears.. thats for sure after u get baptized u learn a lot more or find out on your own. My daughter got baptized for 20 people in the temple last year and we were not even in the church for 2weeks. That don't happen much at all a lot of people have to wait for about a year before they get to go in the temple. I know what they teach, may be in the begining Smith wanted to do well. He was killed by a mob. He was teaching about other Gods also., It makes good reading if u wanted to read more about it. I still love all of them. We went to a UPC church last week, after 3 weeks of me being gone. I know theres some thing very bad there. I love how they love GOD. I love holiness and rules living a clean life is great. There is a few things I found really wired about the UPC church , The Pastor never once talk to us we were going off and on for about 7months He would say hello and walk away. A lot of the women were very rude. I was thinking it was because I am pretty and I look 10years younger then my age..  I am not trying to be a smart butt when I say this ... I really do mean well. I pretty much make friends very fast. I feel so much hate some times when I go there, just because how I was treated. SO what church can I go to? I have been to most of them. I have learned so much at the UPC church. I know every thing can not be wrong. ??? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1682 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.93 |
Dreama, One poster writes: "Just a note: there is nothing new about Oneness doctrine, it is simply Sabellianism regurgitated, as are most "pentecostal" and other modern heresies." The historical fact that the Oneness doctrine is regurgitated is correct. The fact is though that Oneness Pentecostalism is a very, very small segment of Pentecostalism. Two major groups of Pentecostalism are Trinitarian, and that is Foursquare and Assembly of God. If you want to go to a Pentecostal Church that maintains holiness discipline and the doctrine of the Trinity you may want to try a Holiness Pentecostal Church, there are two posters on this board that go or have gone to one. They are sound theologically, especially regarding the Trinity that this discussion board is talking about. Of course, even Arius who was a forerunner of the JW heresy accused Bishop Alexander, (the spiritual father of Athanasius, and Bishop of Alexandria), of being Sabellian, and some of the other posters might try the false accusations that Arius did against the rest of Pentecostalism. Can't put it past these people...lol | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
I don't know much about the Trinity, I know when I was in the NTCC we never learned about the God heards I didn't read my bible much I was only 16 and never in church, We didn't have bible study and we sure didn't have much youth. I never know some of my friends are oneness and they went to bible college and they don't go to church, they have church in there homes and there not holiness, but they do have a lot of love. Not every one in the UPC church was rude or didn't show love, but for the most part .. Love was not there, how can people say they love God and live a clean life style and not know how to love each other. I don't understand it. Do u know of any church here is Spokane wa? I am also wondering I have seen 2 people get the Holy ghost at that church it did not look fake? Can some one explain that? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 926 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). Dreama: A major problem with your looks may be several things. UPCI does not allow its women to use makeup or cut their hair. Long dresses are the order of the day. Also in all of pentecostalism, especially for women, you are required to talk in 'tongues' (faked infantile gibberish). Joseph Smith did not have twenty wives by the way. Polygamy was taught by Brigham Young. I agree there are many, good and bad, stories of Joseph Smith. Just for anyone who might read this, the president of the Mormon Church (LDS) has the right to re-interpret the Bible as he sees fit. That is actually the meaning of Latter-day saints. The latter-day saints (elders, president) may re-interpret/redefine the Bible as they feel lead. Brigham Young, speaking infallible, declared that Jesus is the illegitimate byproduct of a polygamous relationship between Adam God and Mary. Run Adam God through any good search engine. A lot of doctrine is held in common between the Mormons and pentecostalism. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1685 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.59 |
Golly! You are just amazing! You make me laugh! "Also in all of pentecostalism, especially for women, you are required to talk in 'tongues' (faked infantile gibberish)." Baloney! Maybe, you are making some sort of joke about women talking too much?  "A lot of doctrine is held in common between the Mormons and pentecostalism." Unreal! I know Hank H. wants to make it appear that the Word/Faith group, (which is not tied to any major Pentecostal denomination), believes with are God/Men - but he is a lunatic. There is nothing in any Pentecostal Statement of Faith or even Word/Faith groups Statement of Faith to support that. Anybody can go to the Assembly of God, or Foursquare websites to see how incorrect that statement is.  | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1686 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.59 |
Dreama, Foursquare Churches in Spokane, WA http://www.lifecenter.net/ http://www.liferoads.org/ http://www.lifecenternorth.org/ Assembly of God in Spokane, WA Glad Tidings Assembly of God 4224 E 4th Ave Spokane, WA 99202 (509) 535-9035 http://www.spokanefirst.org/ http://www.nlaspokane.org/ Oh, the "problem" with the above is that they will never force you to speak in tongues. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 931 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Easeltine: I have dealt with those caught up in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism for twenty years now. My ministry averages leading one-hundred-people out of your religion a month. I know what I am talking about. Most of the women I deal with have also been physically abused by their religion. Just the facts, ma'am. M(r)(s). Dreama: I am sorry I forgot to introduce myself. My official or legal title is "Rev. Sandy Bryant, DD." I am a counter-cult apologist. The Apostolic Truth Ministries is an apologetics ministry dealing with those caught up in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism. | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
Joseph Smith is have 22 wifes, We were told that by the bishop ever more he had to because God told him to and they were all sealed in the temple. I was LDS what I have no reason to lie unless they are not teaching right? There's many thing u could read about the LDS church. Every thing I have said I learned in the church. And as for the UPCI Yes people do wear dresses but very much in style, this church is way different then your Norm* Holiness church a lot of women have long hair but they were all still in style and a lot of people have TV"S and listen to worldy music and some of the younger girls cut there hair. I don't even have a TV, and I was not even a christian then, just a mormon looking for some else, I liked then pentecostal church very much, I just didn't feel the love there and the rules thats no big deal because most of those rules I believe anyways. I even live by more rules I have added myself. Nice to meet you Rev. Sandy Bryant DD. I still want to go to a church that teaches Love and God word. I like holiness and rules. I just don't want to be at a church where is ok to do what ever u want and think its ok with God., God has a Law. Any ways. I can some times see how the LDS church could be right if u have ever had a bible study with them it seems right, Thats why I went to the UPCI , well 2 reason I guess one kid invited me 3 years a go. and I had to get out of the lDS church so, I looked up what they believe and they teach one GOD and one Bible. I was very happy I was thinking I found a home. I was very wrong. I still believe in one God and one bible. I feel safe this way., I did really see this guy speak in tongues, how would they have learned how to do this kind of thing? | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
i guess i could have went up there and seen for myself if its real or not. I was way to shy.. | ||
| steelsword Advanced Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 524 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
TATM, for someone who knows alot about mormonism, you sure do no little about mormonism. I suggest you do a study on that topic A good start would be http://www.utlm.org Joseph in deed had possibly as many as 27 wives, and yes he was the one who wrote the prophecy on polygamy, sect.132 D&C. Seven of his first nine wives were still married to other men. You speak with authority on pentacostalism, yet know very little of Mormonism. Hard to take you seriously . You ask everybody to research Oneness , yet you can't even research LDS doctrine. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3844 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tamt... is a liar and needs counseling by a mental health institution | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
Arron? Are you pentecostal? Oneness or trinity? I am asking because I think I needed to, I believe in both, I have learned more about the oneness these past 7months then the trinity. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1690 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
Arron, In all of this remember... "Never speak ill of a fellow Republican." - President Reagan As Steelsword says, Rev. Sandy needs to look at more facts regarding LDS doctrine. I have seen and heard of abuses myself in fringe Pentecostalish groups where there would be an actual need of a person as "Rev. Sandy" is describing himself. I don't know if he is really legit. I have personally experienced and seen abuses in the "Shepherding Movement," no sexual abuses towards women, just domination, like King/Slave relationships. I have personally seen deliverances of people involved in sexual sins from the "Latter-Day Rain" group. I have heard of abuses in the 12 Tribes, Billy Graham/Jack Hayford/Anti-Jesus hater group. I also know that what he says about UPC having too many rules regarding women. Assembly of God and Foursquare are different...on second though Rev. Sandy could you use a Pentecostal to help people get out of these fringe groups? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 934 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). steelsword & M(r)(s). Dreama: It is a fact that you can read any story you want on Joseph Smith. Are there stories of multiple wives? You bet! Does the Mormon church teach what suits them best at any moment? You bet! But wait, is it possible to really study Mormonism? It is in fact nearly impossible. All the teachings of that religion are held in the Salt Lake LDS library. Only an insider can get at the facts. Then like is the case with M(r)(s). Dreama, you don't know wether you are getting the truth or just a cover story. The information I have read on Joseph Smith is more than one-hundred-years-old. I am fairly sure it is closer to the truth than what is being written today. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1691 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
"For further evidence that Joseph Smith had multiple wives, visit the LDS web site www.familysearch.org. One can find a list of 24 of Joseph Smith's wives by simply typing in the names of Joseph and Emma (Hale) Smith, add his parents, Joseph and Lucy, add United States as the country, and you should be able to find the list. While the list is incomplete, it does contain the names of four of the women who had living husbands when they married Smith. These are Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner), Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), Presendia Huntington (Buell) and Zina Huntington (Jacobs). Also listed are Helen Mar Kimball, Smith's youngest wife at 14 years of age, and seventeen-year-old Sarah Ann Whitney." | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
I think people in the LDS church don't want to share there husbands with other women. Joseph Smith was married many time. In my ward I was the only convert? Most grow up in the LDS church so they would know way more then me. I don't know who much is a lie and not a lie, I know most of the people in the LDS church are rich and have a great education and give a lot of money to the church. How could all these people going to hell and there so dang nice and wonderful I seen love there. In the pentecostal (UPC)church Not even close. There are so people in the church that do live in very nice houses, like one lady and her husband live right behind the Mormon temple its gated and very high class these people have way to much pride. Not all! I guess its like that in every church right? We have stopped going to the UPC church as of last Wednesday. I pretty much told one of the ladys how I feel about the church. Not in a mean way either. You know people can feel when there wanted or not wanted, and i didn't feel wanted. The Pastor didn't even remember what I looked like when I had my hair down, he asked a sister if that was her friend from endtimes. she said not its >>>> and she said my name he said oh it is. I was like thanks a lot. I was wondering another thing also,. DO all churches ask for money all the time? This church did a lot. OH wow I felt bad for the people. It was just wired> when church started it was great people were dancing jumping and singing that was pretty neat. I have seen it before at the NTCC but it was very new to my kids. They loved it. well anyways .. thats it for now | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1692 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
34 Wifes of Joseph Smith on this site, with sources of references: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/ | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
Joseph Smith had many wifes for they could all be sealed in the temple so in the next life they could all live together, he did marry other mens wife because there husbands went to war and some died. I know there are some things coved up that the lDS church don't want people to know, may be its true, but most of the LDS people I know and are very high in the church even agree that he had a lot of wifes even more the 34. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). Dreama: As to speaking in 'tongues' the Mormon church also teaches 'tongues' and 'faith healing'. The real question is the source. Are they really speaking in biblical 'tongues' or just faking something? Look carefully, you may be surprised when you come to admit the truth. Sensationalism is an age old ploy. As to 'one God' I would warn you to look carefully. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons, LDS, Reformed, Fundamental, etc.); The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses, Bible Students, etc.); all twelve-hundred flavors of pentecostalism; and Muslims; all teach a 'one God' theory. As I said, be careful. Everyone on this board believes in and supports, One God. The problem is not the claim of One God, the problem is defining One God. Most people who have read or studied the Bible believe and support One God in three persons. I know of no religion that identifies itself as Christian that teaches plural gods. I know of no one on this board who would describe themselves as polytheistic, no one. My first problem with the theory taught by UPCI came with their doctrinal statement. The tract entitled "60 Questions on the Godhead" struck in my craw, as the old saying goes. I realize humans do not have craws. But, nonetheless, it struck in my craw. Every search engine turned up a UPCI reference for the tract. But I knew it from somewhere else. It was some time later before I found the tract in one of my storage buildings. The actual name of the tract is "What you should know about the Trinity." The author of the tract was the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. The tract contains such brillant questions as "Is the word 'Trinity' found in the Bible?" The questions were carefully selected to lead the reader to a predetermined conclusion, not the truth. David Bernard, author of "Oneness Theology," concluded in his great work that "if oneness theology is true, Jesus is his own daddy." The theory taught by oneness pentecostals, all pentecostalism, for that matter is problematic. I, also, take exception to Mr. Easeltine claim of self-righteousness. The Assembly of God recently changed its teaching on the Trinity to support the oneness movement. AoG is courting T.D. Jakes who is a oneness preacher. Mr. Jakes will make a great deal of money for that religion, if it can win him over. You might also note that neither, AoG nor UPCI, can preach from the word of God. All of their preachers are required to sign an affidavit stating they will preach nothing from their pulpits but their respective religion's doctrinal statement. Just a few of the many problems with the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism. | ||
| steelsword Advanced Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 525 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
TATM, I would say yes , it is possible to study Mormonism, I was a mormon for 23 years , grandfather started the branch in my Home town. Possibly some of the best research is by the Tanners, of whom I have conversed with Sandra,who was the Great Greatdaughter of Brighham Young. I have collected over 5,000 pages of doccument,have some quite old versions of the Doctrine & Covenance , The BOM with the Burgundy cover etc. Will actually be in Utah in May, working with a ministry,to the mormons. While I don't agree with oness theology , if someone tells me they adhere to the original tenets of the orthodox faith , I take them for their word, unless they show or state otherwise. God bless -Steel-Jude 3 | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3848 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm again you are a liar the assemblys of GOD has not changed their doctrine on THE TRINITY. another one of you lies you are caught in | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3849 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
dreama... no i am trinity i be lieve in the trinity fo GOD ... GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1693 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
T.D. Jakes at one time was oneness Pentecostal. One of those stupid Hank Hanegraffites took a sentence from T.D. Jakes website and magnified it to say that T.D. Jakes was still oneness. I'm not a T.D. Jakes fan, but IT'S A LIE BY A LIAR! My letter against the Heresy Hunter was published in Charisma Magazine the next month, that was around 1999 + or -, and is still a LIE. | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
steelsword> wow a mormon for 23years! Are you happy you're out? DO u miss it. There was a few times I just wanted to die because I loved them so much and I was scared to read 4 bibles this came later after reading the holy bible, I just wish they had one bible and were christians I would have never left, UPC! church we were going to off and on for 7mnoths I never felt love at all. Not from one person., It was fake, I really mean this. It was wired. I didn't under stand it. I am not talking about them because of there rules , because before we went there my kids and I had rules more then they give. I have noticed a lot of stuff that didn't seem right at all. Now I think its harder to put this church behind me then the LDS church, I will hope I will for get them. So will this cost them there salvation? The UPC church just because they got the Godhead wrong? I know some of those people were nice, it was most were rude, God is the Judge and only he knows. ok thats it.. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1695 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
Just the facts. T.D. Jakes spoke at the Southern Baptist Convention this year...that's the group thats courting him. | ||
| dreama New member Username: dreama Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.185.139.26 |
steelsword> wow a mormon for 23years! Are you happy you're out? DO u miss it. There was a few times I just wanted to die because I loved them so much and I was scared to read 4 bibles this came later after reading the holy bible, I just wish they had one bible and were christians I would have never left, UPC! church we were going to off and on for 7mnoths I never felt love at all. Not from one person., It was fake, I really mean this. It was wired. I didn't under stand it. I am not talking about them because of there rules , because before we went there my kids and I had rules more then they give. I have noticed a lot of stuff that didn't seem right at all. Now I think its harder to put this church behind me then the LDS church, I will hope I will for get them. So will this cost them there salvation? The UPC church just because they got the Godhead wrong? I know some of those people were nice, it was most were rude, God is the Judge and only he knows. ok thats it.. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 939 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). steelsword: Quoting: "While I don't agree with oness theology. . . " End quote. Are you polytheistic? or Do you perhaps worship a three headed god? Joking, of course. As I said, I know of no one describing themselves as Christian who doesn't hold to the theology of One God. Catholic is the word for it. Catholic . . . universal, one god over the universe. The problem is some religions have perverted the meaning of oneness. When dealing with any religion, especially the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism, always force them to define the words they banner about. | ||
| suzuki New member Username: suzuki Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.156.159.10 |
So what is it besides not believing in the trinity that makes the Pentecostals cultists? (Granted I know there are trinity believing Pentecostals out there...) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1009 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). suzuki: I will answer your question. The dictionary defines 'cult' as virtually everyone living. Look up the definition sometime. The definition is completely useless. For example, if you read the Wall Street Journal, you are a cultist. If you like strawberry jam on toast, you are a cultist. If you attend church, you are a cultist. As I said, the dictionary definition is useless. Most apologists define a 'cult' as a group that holds a non-orthodox doctrinal statement. Among those most often named include but is not limited to the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism (all twelve-hundred-flavors), the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesswes, Bible Students, etc.) the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons, Reformed, Fundamental, etc.), the Adventist Movement (Seventh Day, Evangel, Branch Davidian, etc.) and so on. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1695 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
TATM is half right and half wrong. Most groups that are consider a cult would be like Branch Davidians(david koresh), Jim Jones. Extreme groups that cause harm to people. But it also can mean any religious organization that is not mind control as well. Making every church and every group a cult that is religious. I came here when my research proved useless elsewhere, considering I knew nothing. But I would not take alot of info from this board except if you do research on the names they give you and the facts you learn are true. some things you will find will be false because people do want to give false information. Some information is based on one person opinion and not more then one person's opinion. So use this site carefully. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1012 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.200.93.37 |
The Right Reverent and Most Holy Ms. Turtle: Quoting: "Extreme groups that cause harm to people." End quote. You are correct. The pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism is not harmful just because they are more interested in your wallet, wife and mammy than your soul. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1696 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Any minister despite denomination using mind control techniques to keep people in their church is abuse. Pentcostals has a whole is not abusive just different then main stream Christianity. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1016 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.7.153 |
The Right Reverent and Most Holy Ms. Turtle: Quoting: "Pentcostals has a whole is not abusive . . ." End quote. A piece of cheap advice, stay away from the thread dealing with Religious Leaders. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1697 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Please do not call me holy, I know I am suppose to be good, but by no means am I perfect. Tatm thumbs up. | ||
| suzuki New member Username: suzuki Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.156.159.10 |
Thank you for not answering my question TATM. Turtle, I know that every body of believers has bad apples. From the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches to the little corner church with no name. It all adds up to being responcible, and taking responcibility for your own actions. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1020 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.200.119.235 |
M(r)(s). Suzuki: Having a bad apple in the crowd does not make a cult. Nor does having 'good' apples make a group righteous. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1785 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
TATM, "Most apologists define a 'cult' as a group that holds a non-orthodox doctrinal statement. Among those most often named include but is not limited to the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism..." The following two books on Cults doesn't list Pentecostalism as a Cult: The Kingdom of the Cults, by Dr. Walter Martin Handbook of Today's Religions, by McDowell/Stewart TATM, will you please recommend to me an apologist book on Cults that defines Pentecostalism as a Cult in the definition as you state, "non-orthodox doctrinal statement?" Thank you | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3885 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
i as a triniterian and a pentecostal hold to the basic beliefs of the christian church as it is always held. i believe in one GOD, IN THREE PERSONS, THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST. i have been to oneness churches, i have a few friends there but not many, i do not believe as they do about JESUS but we fellowship or did when i went . i do not believe as the baptist the methodist or what ever the other denomanations are but i can ffellowship with them if they believe in JESUS CHRIST. BUT IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS no i cant have fellowship with them | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1788 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
"Having a bad apple in the crowd does not make a cult. Nor does having 'good' apples make a group righteous." Vs. Jesus Christ "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1033 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Easeltine: Are you suggesting that the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism is, in fact, a cult based on the enormous number of bad apples in that religion? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1789 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
No, I am suggesting your statement is different than what the Scripture actually says. I am still interested in a Christian book on cults that says that Pentecostalism is a cult. I would like to add it to my library. It's good to know the other side so we can defend ourselves when we meet Cessationists that reject the supernatural sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit being for today. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1037 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Come, Mr. Easeltine: Quoting: "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." End quote. I believe that is your exact quote (Post Number #1788). Now tell me, is the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism a cult based on the colossal number of bad apples in their pulpits? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1794 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
TATM, I'm going to ask you again. Picture the old lady in the anti-illegal alien commercial saying, "Where's the fence?" TATM, "Where's the book?" | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1038 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Come, Mr. Easeltine: Quoting: "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." End quote. I believe that is your exact quote (Post Number #1788). Now tell me, is the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism a cult based on the colossal number of bad apples in their pulpits? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1798 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
TATM, Some are good and some are bad, just like any other Christian denomination. I just came from a post where I called a pentecostalish minister bad. The point is some are good. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1799 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
Where's the book? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1039 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Come now Mr. Easeltine: Quoting: "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." End quote. Quoting: "Some are good and some are bad . . ." End quote. Are the fruits of racist and sexual deviates good fruit or bad fruit? | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3886 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
easeltine do not expect an answer from tatm for he is a liar and know he cant prove anything he says | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1802 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
TATM, I agree with Arron. You can't prove a thing! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1042 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.163.26 |
Mr. Easeltine: There is a major difference in proving a point and having a member of a cult believe that point. Come answer my question, IF you can. Quoting: "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." End quote. Quoting: "Some are good and some are bad . . ." End quote. Are the fruits of racist and sexual deviates good fruit or bad fruit? What exactly does the word 'fruit' mean? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1804 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.166.186 |
TATM, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fox_Parham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Seymour The accusations of "racist" and "sexual deviates" is not provable based upon the historical evidence. What you are doing is called: SLANDER NOUN: Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation. A false and malicious statement or report about someone. What you have become to us is a: GOSSIP NOUN Idle, often sensational and groundless talk about others: gossipry, hearsay, report, rumor, talebearing, tattle, tittle-tattle, word. Slang: scuttlebutt. See words A person habitually engaged in idle talk about others: blab, gossiper, gossipmonger, newsmonger, rumormonger, scandalmonger, tabby, talebearer, taleteller, tattle, tattler, tattletale, telltale, whisperer. Slang: yenta. We all can name good Pentecostals - Corrie Ten Boom, Derek Prince, Don Williams, Jack Hayford etc. I can keep going naming Pentecostals with proven good fruit and character. The fact is that Pentecostalism is considered part of Evangelical Christianity. Foursquare Pentecostalism is much larger than anyone realizes world wide. Assembly of God used to be the largest with 57 million worldwide. The greater majority of Pentecostals to not believe that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation. Those that do and believe in oneness Pentecostalism are outside the mainstream. A person in oneness could be saved. Baptism in the name of Jesus only is incorrect theology. That a person must speak in tongues for salvation is false theology, and produces demonic bondages. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1046 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.220.128.74 |
Come Mr. Easeltine, telling the truth is never slander. Now try really really hard and answer my question. Quoting: "16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." End quote. Quoting: "Some are good and some are bad . . ." End quote. Are the fruits of racist and sexual deviates good fruit or bad fruit? What exactly does the word 'fruit' mean? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1807 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.166.186 |
Let's put one example of a person I mentioned: Jack Hayford is a Pentecostal, the President of the International Church of the Foursquare Pastor, President of Kings College and Seminary, and founding pastor for The Church On the Way. Prove to me that Jack Hayford is a racist and a sexual deviate. Prove to me that that this ministry has produced bad fruit. Fruit is what is what has been produced from the person's ministry. ...and TATM, "Where's the book?" | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1808 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.166.186 |
"Come Mr. Easeltine, telling the truth is never slander." Agree. "When the pentecostal religion was invented by the homosexual Charles Fox Parham, he gave the religion its distinctives (division and scandal)." - Read about Charles Parham above - That's a false accusation, and slander. "William Seymour, the one-eyed black man you refer to, founded the Church of God in Christ (black pentecostalism).)" - Completely inaccurate. Though, COGIC embraces standard evangelical Christianity.". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_in_Christ "On UPCI - Much of Oneness doctrine is standard pentecostal fair with the exception of the Godhead." - Wrong - "The doctrinal views of the UPCI reflect most of the beliefs of the Holiness-Pentecostal movement, with the exception of the "second work of grace," the historic doctrine of the Trinity, and the traditional Trinitarian formula in water baptism. It embraces the Pentecostal view that speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit." UPCI difference in three MAIN areas from the MAIN Pentecostal groups: 1. The Doctrine of the Trinity. That's a major one. 2. That the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second experience of grace. There view is FALSE THEOLOGY, believing that one needs to speak in tongues in order to be saved. It is heretical to believe that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 3. The Trinitarian formula of water baptism. Assembly of God does not practice water baptism in the name of Jesus Only. Don't lump all Pentecostalism in with this group! You say 1956, UPCI says, "The UPCI emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ." You could be correct, I don't know. "UPCI is not related to Oneness, nor Jesusnameonly pentecostalism. While much of its doctrine is purely white pentecostalism, its doctrine on the Godhead is taken from the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society." Doctrine of UPCI from UPCI Website regarding Jesus Christ - "The UPCI teaches that the one God who revealed Himself in the Old Testament as Jehovah revealed himself in His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus Jesus Christ was and is God. In other words, Jesus is the one true God manifested in flesh, for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (John 1:1-14; I Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9)." http://www.upci.org/about.asp TATM, this isn't Watchtower/JW/Arius doctrine! That doctrine believes that Jesus is "a god" and incorrectly adds the article of "a god" in the Watchtower Translation. JW's do not believe that Jesus is God. UPCI is as stated above "Sabellianism" from Sabellius CA. 215 AD. I think that one cannot say with certainty that a person believing this incorrect idea of the Trinity could not be saved, conclusively. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1810 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.166.186 |
Are the fruits of racist and sexual deviates good fruit or bad fruit? If you are refering to Seymour, or Parham, of the Azusa Street Revival your point is not proved that they are racist or sexual deviates based on the historical facts. If you are referring to the Welsh Revival of 1904, where Evan Roberts or Rees Howells asked for the 2nd experience of the Holy Spirit you are incorrect. The fruits of racist and sexual deviates would be bad fruits. I have named people that have produced good fruit, and are doctrinally tied to Evangelical Christianity and they are Pentecostals. If the person who is head of a group is a Pentecostal Christian and producing good fruit then one would get the idea that they are a good tree and their group is good. If the person who is head of a group is a Pentecostal, sexual deviates, and a racist and producing bad fruit one would get the idea that they are a bad tree and their group is bad. My claim to you is that you can have a Christian Pentecostal and you are incorrect to say you cannot. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3889 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.176 |
easeltin... i ask that you pray for me that i will be a better christian than ever i want to win souls for JESUS and the the type person HE wants me to be. i have been feeling ver depressed here of late so i need prayer in that area too | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1813 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.165.180 |
Arron when I feel like you are I remember the Scriptures written by the Apostle Paul in Philippians: "9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing." What it shows me is the Apostle Paul was pressing on to be perfect. I am praying right now to Jesus Christ for you who: Hebrews 12:2 - "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Arron, Let me share with you a website that you can find a Scripture for yourself if you remember just a word of the Verse. It is www.crosswalk.com To the right of the website you can put in the word and it will find the Scripture for you for FREE! It gives you primary choices of New International Version, New American Standard, King James Version, and New Living Translation. If you pressed advanced you can see many different Translations as choices. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3892 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.176 |
thanks so much easeltine so many dont seem to want to pray for any one any more but i still need prayer and others do too so i always pray | ||
| suzuki New member Username: suzuki Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.156.159.10 |
Eseltine, Since you seem to be one of the sane here in this particular section of the boards, would you mind answering a few questions for me...? Please bear in mind that I am not a Christian at all. Is belief in the Trinity absolutely necessary for salvation? Is Spirit baptism a second work, or a sign? In which manner is baptism in Jesus name incorrect and false doctrine? And lastly, at this time anyway, why does the majority of the Christian church believe in a concept that even the elect members of its scholarly society admit did not exist until around the second century, and since then has become a progressive theory? | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3896 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.203 |
the chuch has exsisted since the begining , at pentecost. there was however as the bible states a church in the wilderness meaning the congrgation of israel. if one reads the bible they will find that it teaches THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST so therefore i believe in the trinity. i feel it is necessary to belive what the bible says i beleive that i received THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST when i got saved. but the baptisum OF THE HOLY GHOST is a different working of THE SPIRIT in our lives and will be evidenced by speaking in tongues, the baptisum in water is to be done according to the teaching of JESUS is to be baptised IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY GHOST, all THREE ARTE NAMED and ALL THREE WERE PRESENT AT THE BAPTISUM OF JESUS. JESUS WAS IN THE WATER THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVEN AND THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN AS A DOVE ON JESUS. that is enough for me | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1825 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.204.16.216 |
Suzuki, * Is belief in the Trinity absolutely necessary for salvation? The Bible says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life." "That if you confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved." "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God." The Trinity is a logical conclusion, based on Scripture, (as Arron states), of "orthodox Christianity" that shows us that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh and One with God. We see also that there is the persons of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father talks to the Son, they are different persons, and yet Isaiah 9:6 is also truth as stated above. What is absolutely necessary for salvation is to believe that Jesus Christ is God. John Chapter 1. * Is Spirit baptism a second work, or a sign? There are different opinions in "orthodox Christianity" regarding this topic. Though, we disagree with each other it is not a point of salvation whether one believes it one way or the other. The point of salvation is the first topic. The UPCI agrees with the "Fundamentalist" idea of spirit baptism. UPCI believes that everyone is gets spirit baptism upon salvation and that speaking in tongues is a necessity. "Fundamentalist", believe the same, only that believing in Jesus is necessity. I believe as Arron, that Scripture teaches us based upon the Disciples receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20, and the spirit Baptism in Acts 2 that we are talking about two different events. The first person in Scripture to receive the Baptism With the Holy Spirit was Jesus Christ when He was Baptized With the Holy Spirit after John the Baptist water baptized Him. The Spirit came down in the form of a dove in every Gospel upon Jesus, and He was led into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. He, Jesus Christ is the Baptizer With the Holy Spirit. He, Jesus Christ, still sends the Spirit on those whom ask Him. * In which manner is baptism in Jesus name incorrect and false doctrine? The Latter-Day-Rain minister that water baptized me always would say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, WHICH IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." Like Arron says, Jesus told us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19. Arron, correctly gives the example of the water baptism of Jesus Christ showing that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all three there distinct and separate Persons. As Arron basically is stating, God said it, I believe it, that settles it. Though, you are using all the Scriptures in Acts to say it was in the name of Jesus only, so I can appreciate the practice as a matter of conscience. I just disagree with it based on the overall idea of the doctrine of the Trinity. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1826 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.204.16.216 |
Suzuki, I got so carried away that I exceeded the 4.0 maximum to answer all your questions in one post. LOL  Your last question: "And lastly, at this time anyway, why does the majority of the Christian church believe in a concept that even the elect members of its scholarly society admit did not exist until around the second century, and since then has become a progressive theory?" The doctrine of the Trinity was not defined until 325 A.D., the concepts in the words of the Nicene Creed. The Athanasian Creed, written around 100 years laters defines the logic of the doctrine of the Trinity and is worth you examining it. The history, what happened, was all ordered by God, quite amazing to study. There is much history of the formation of this doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity was formed as a response to the false doctrine taught by Arius, (J.W.'s). Arius believed that Jesus was "a god", a created being, a creature not the Creator. A person cannot be saved and believe this false doctrine. I even heard Dr. Walter Martin call one of the "oneness" theologians his "brother" once while debating on the Ankerberg show years ago. When asked about, "Why?" by Ankerberg, Dr. Walter Martin basically replied that the theologian believed that Jesus was God, and so he could not prove that he wasn't a Christian based on that belief. The doctrine of the Trinity is: * Scripturally supportable. Bible based. * Logical, based upon sound reasoning of the Scriptures. * God given to protect against the false doctrine that Jesus Christ is a creature, created being, rather than than the Creator. St. Antony once said that all creation condemns this idea since the Arians were counting the Creator, (Jesus Christ), as a creature, rather than the eternal God. "PLEASE BEAR IN MIND THAT I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN AT ALL." You could be a oneness person just testing me and using this expression to get me to explain it as if you were not a Christian at all. That fine, Suzuki, no problem. If you are not a Christian at all, I have Good News for you: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice, and opens the door I will come into him and sup with him and he with Me." Sister, I offer you the Good News of Jesus Christ to you, (if you don't know Him as God Almighty come in the flesh.) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1055 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.220.7.231 |
M(r)(s) Suzuki & Mr. Easeltine!! Two peas in a pod. The blind leading the blind. Quoting: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice, and opens the door I will come into him and sup with him and he with Me." End quote. Come Mr. Easeltine, any chance you have the manhood to quote that verse in context? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1829 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.204.16.216 |
Billy Graham thinks that it can be used for the individual Christian, and so do I! I have heard the calvinistic interpretation. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1056 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.220.7.231 |
Mr. Easeltine I find your post quiet perplexing. Hopefully, you can straighten out the confusion. All the sources I have quoted are from the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism. You squalled previously, so I posted several addition pentecostal sources showing the origins of your religion. Both times, you have quoted Wikipedia. I, for one, certainly appreciate the vast among of research you have performed. I, again for one, understand the complexity of information available today. I, again for one, know the vast majority of information available on the internet is misleading. I, also, understand the meaning of ‘vested’ interest. Thank you, deeply, for committing so much of your time and energy to researching your religion for us. For those who may not be as kind as I, or do not have the background in academia that I have, Wikipedia is a ‘write-your-own-encyclopedia’. It is the source of numerous lawsuits for slander and liberal. Congress and the FCC, among others, have threatened to block the site from the internet due to the false information it contains. No one of any reputation would dream of quoting Wikipedia as an authoritative source. The majority of articles were written by those with a ‘vested’ interest in them. So here, Mr. Easeltine, is your golden opportunity. Show me anywhere, in any of my post, I have claimed first-hand-knowledge of your religion’s founding or founders? I quote several history books from the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism, including Assembly of God sources. When you previously objected, I again quoted several well known pentecostal sources. Here, let us get it straight once and for all. You tell me, because I am to ignorant to find the answer on my own. Your answer will be the final word on the subject. This is it. No more discussion, no more disagreement, no more misunderstanding period. Your word is final!! At which point did you religion lie through its teeth? When they say your founder was a child-molesting homosexual or when they said he wasn’t. When did your religion lie? When it said Parham and Seymour were racist or when your religion said they were not? Excuse me, but in my mind a lie is a lie. But to you, a lie that suits your opinion of the moment, appears to be acceptable. So you declare the truth. At which point did your religion lie? Do you actually believe God, while standing at the judgement seat, is going to google Parham or Seymour? Do you think God, might by some accident, knows the truth? Ps. Corrie Ten Boom was not pentecostal. But even if she were,two wrongs, as my mammy useta say, do not a right make. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1830 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.204.16.216 |
Sandy, "Most apologists define a 'cult' as a group that holds a "non-orthodox doctrinal statement." Among those most often named include but is not limited to the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism..." As I stated above. No book I know by a Christian apologists lists Pentecostalism as a "Cult". I have given you two books, "The Kingdom of the Cult", (written by the Baptist Dr. Walter Martin - I saw him last at a Pentecostal church), and "Handbook of Today's Religions" by McDowell & Stewart, that do not list Pentecostals as a "Cult" from the standpoint of the basic beliefs of "orthodox Christianity". Again, I ask you, "Where's the Christian apologist book that lists Pentecostals as a "Cult" as you keep claiming..."Where's the book? You have yet to show one source that makes the claim that Charles Parham was a practicing "homosexual". Charles Parham was married and had children with his wife. Where is your evidence showing me that Charles Parham was a homosexual? Where is your evidence that shows me that Seymour was a "racist"? How was Seymour ever a "racist"? Was Parham really a racist for that time period? The whole first 2 posts. "Jesusnameonly pentecostals are Trinitarians." "...recently the Assembly of God began courting T.D. Jakes. Mr. Jakes is a Oneness pentecostal. He owns his own religion and makes millions of dollars annually. The AoG would love to have him as one of their money makers. To that end the AoG recently changed its doctrinal statement from person to manifestation on the Godhead to mimic Jakes teachings." There was a lot of wild and weird stuff you quoted in those first 2 posts. Really a twist of the facts from reality. There was no quotes just a bunch of junk put together by TATMism. Corrie Ten Boom was a Dutch Reformed Charismatic, not a Pentecostal. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1059 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.201.35.38 |
Mr. Easeltine: Again the best you can do is bs. Try really really hard to answer my question. At what point did your religion lie, when it labeled Charles Fox Parham a child-molesting homosexual or when it said he wasn't? Your choice. When did you religion lie, when it said both Willaim Seymour and Charles Fox Parham were racist or when your religion denied it? Again, your choice. (Message edited by the apostolic truth ministries on December 27, 2007) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1060 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.201.35.38 |
For those not watching: Quoting: "We all can name good Pentecostals - Corrie Ten Boom, Derek Prince, Don Williams, Jack Hayford etc. I can keep going naming Pentecostals with proven good fruit and character." Mr. Easeltine, post number #1804 easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1804 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.166.186 Quoting: "Corrie Ten Boom was a Dutch Reformed Charismatic, not a Pentecostal." End quote. Mr. Easeltine, post number #1830 easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1830 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.204.16.216 Those caught up in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism have a really really hard time keeping up with themselves. As me mammy always said, don't tell a lie so you don't have to keep up with what you said and to who. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1832 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.229.134.166 |
"Again the best you can do is bs. Try really really hard to answer my question. At what point did your religion lie, when it labeled Charles Fox Parham a child-molesting homosexual or when it said he wasn't? Your choice. When did you religion lie, when it said both Willaim Seymour and Charles Fox Parham were racist or when your religion denied it? Again, your choice." Sources...Sources...Sources - Give me quotes. TATM - The point is that there is no difference to you if the person is Charismatic or Pentecostal. They are all not saved if they speak in tongues. So, I meant Charismatic when I said Pentecostal...Corrie Ten Boom hung around Pentecostals, like Kathryn Kuhlman at Jerusalem II in the 70's. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1064 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.201.35.38 |
Mr. Easeltine: "Again the best you can do is bs. Try really really hard to answer my question. At what point did your religion lie, when it labeled Charles Fox Parham a child-molesting homosexual or when it said he wasn't? Your choice. When did you religion lie, when it said both Willaim Seymour and Charles Fox Parham were racist or when your religion denied it? Again, your choice." | ||
| suzuki New member Username: suzuki Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.156.159.10 |
Thank you Easeltine for taking the time to answer my questions. I have a few more, now... It always seems to happen. I got started on this subject of Christianity because of a friend of mine who recently changed religions. I, however, have to state that at present I am content to be numbered among the Shintoist and Buddhist believers. Ah, but back to the questions.. If you don't mind me asking more that is. Ah, you state that the Trinity doctrine is a "logical conclusion" based on Scripture. My question here is in what manner. Everytime I have heard the Trinity explained in "logical" terms it becomes more and more of a mess. I am at least a polytheist and will admit I am, but I don't understand how the trinity is not more than one God. Is there more than one Spirit in the godhead of Christianity? How do the "Persons" of God come into being in the Old Testament? Also, I don't understand how baptism in Jesus name is wrong, when Biblical experts have agreed that in the early church this was how they baptized? What sets one formula over another? While I still do not understand all that you have written, I will take time to search it out. tatm, if you want to call me something, call me Suzuki San, then atleast you would be encompassing all the polite titles while you insult me. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1833 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.229.134.166 |
Tatm, Pentecostalism does not label Charles Parham a "child-molesting homosexual". Pentecostalism does not label Charles Parham and William Seymour "racists." Prove your sources that says that Charles Parham was a "child-molesting homosexual." If you can't prove your sources, direct quotes, you are making a false accusation, slander, and a lie about Parham. If you are making a false accusation the Bible calls Satan, "The Accuser of the Brethren." The Bible says that the, "Devil is a liar and the father of lies." You can keep asking the question over and over, though you are asking a question that is false accusations and lies to begin with. You have never stated to anyone on FACTNet that you know Jesus Christ as LORD. I have my doubts about you. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1835 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.229.134.166 |
Suzuki, Check Wikipedia for an overall idea of Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity You ask many questions for a person who wants to stay in Shintoism/Buddhism. I have given Scriptures to you, and I am getting tired tonight, it's tiring when one keeps getting insulted with the Scriptures I give, with comments such as: "M(r)(s) Suzuki & Mr. Easeltine!! Two peas in a pod. The blind leading the blind." This is not a Christian's attitude. | ||
| suzuki New member Username: suzuki Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.156.159.10 |
I may have to go back there (wikipedia). You are right, I ask a lot of questions. Its a weakness of mine, curiosity. Its the main reason why I moved to the US. Trolls don't really bother me. I have had to put up with far worse than what tatm is dishing out. I don't believe that s/he can call themselves a Christian and yet post such rudeness. I do not judge all of Christianity by the actions of one troll. Have a good night. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1836 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.5.135 |
Suzuki, Back you your questions: "Ah, you state that the Trinity doctrine is a "logical conclusion" based on Scripture. My question here is in what manner. Everytime I have heard the Trinity explained in "logical" terms it becomes more and more of a mess. I am at least a polytheist and will admit I am, but I don't understand how the trinity is not more than one God. Is there more than one Spirit in the godhead of Christianity? How do the "Persons" of God come into being in the Old Testament? "Also, I don't understand how baptism in Jesus name is wrong, when Biblical experts have agreed that in the early church this was how they baptized? What sets one formula over another?" The Bible says, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Everything that you see did not come from nothing. That would a conclusion one could get from studying the second law of Thermodynamics. Therefore, it is logical to believe that there is a Creator God. The Bible begins with the following passages: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light." We also see the following passage when man is created, and a couple other places: "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness." Within these Scriptures the Trinity is present. We have God the Father, God the Spirit, God the Son, (Word & Light), present. The Us and the Our makes it obvious that there is more than one Person. Yet, there is Oneness in Trinity. Christians believe that the following Scripture is completely fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah. This verse is part of Handel's Messiah: "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Yet, it is made clear from the Jewish Scriptures that there can only be ONE God, that God is described as "the King of Israel AND His Redeemer": "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1837 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.5.135 |
The First and the Last refers to Jesus Christ in the Christian Bible: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Yet, there is a distinction of Persons between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit indicated from the following Scripture of the baptism of Jesus Christ: "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."" In all the examples of the Baptism of Jesus Christ in the Bible the Person of the Father speaks to the Person of the Son, and the Person of the Holy Spirit comes upon the Person of the Son. In John, Jesus Christ the Son, talks to the Father many, many times. There is a distinction of Persons indicated. To understand the logic of Trinity we need to realize that there is Persons of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, yet logic tells us that there can only be One Being who is Uncreate, One Being who is Almighty, One Being who is All-Knowing. To try to understand this one needs to read what Scripture says about Jesus Christ: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1838 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.5.135 |
Suzuki, The issue of the formula is only an issue of the exact phraseology to a Jesusnameonly Pentecostal. If Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, why do they make it an issue? It's a devisive doctrinal issue, and no reason for the issue except for denominational pride and separation. Is someone is Baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they are baptized in the name of Jesus, since Jesus is the same name as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are confused beyond belief! There are many doctrines in UPCI that make it cultish. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3967 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
i always use the scripture where JESUS was being baptised and THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVEN AND THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN ON JESUS now that is THREE i dont care what anyone says if they can count they will have to admit there are three. and JESUS prayed TO THE FATHER AND IF HE WASNT THERE WHY WAS JESUS PRAYING TO HIMSELF. also if baptisum saved a person then JESUS would not have had to die for our sins. the law could not saved us baptising cant save us giveing money cant save us doing good works cant save us you have TO COME IN AT THE DOOR WHICH IS JESUS. HIS SHED BLOOD IS WHAT PAID THE PRICE. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Junior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Arron, you have this issue absolutely correct. At Christ's baptism, the worship of the Trinity was revealed. The Father bore witness to the Co-eternal Logos, and the Holy Spirit, descending as a dove, confirmed it. Three Persons, One essence. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 4031 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.116.220 |
mcmstaff78... thanks |
