Waco Tibune Herald Article

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post BLUF (bottom line up front) foreverhis 2  1  5-25-07  10:20 am   Start New Thread

Author Message   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:27 am:        Wheeler says.... Then, in 1997, a man who was associated with Homestead Heritage for a time left the group and contacted Watchman Fellowship. He was never a member, Wheeler says, because he refused to conform to the way of life. But he claimed to know all about the group. For a time??? For how long? YEARS! Never a member? I was at his and his wife's baptism. They even regularly attended Sunday meetings until they were knocked down to "Friday Night Status." They were under discipline. What church disciplines non-members? "If they go out from us it is because they were never of us..." This is how they justify saying us ex-members were never members. It's one of their "wise as a serpent" answers. Like the novel "The Brave New World" there is "double speak." What they say doesn't mean what you think it does. So they aren't lying... you are just led to believe something different from the truth because they have redefined the language. Because he refused to conform to the way of life? We were close enough to this family to see their efforts to conform. At one point I was concerned enough to ask my group leader why this family was on “Friday Night Status” when after talking to the wife she expressed they didn’t know why. I was told by my group leader, “Because Brother _____ isn’t broken enough.” It stuck with me and I will never forget it. Not because he had to be broken, but because this man WAS a very humble man and I could not imagine him more broken. I don’t know if there was more to it, I only know what the leader told me. The way of life is one of total submission to the leaders as “Jesus in the flesh.” The authority of Jesus is expressed through those in authority in the group. Like the authority of God, it is an authority to be unquestioned. Like the authority of God in the believers life it touches every detail of the members life. There is no privacy from God, and in the same way the members brings everything “to the light” not only in their lives but the lives of other members. There is no differentiating between Gods authority and theirs: it is one in the same. Our brokenness to the will of God, our fear of God, our seeking God’s approval, our unquestioning faith in His ability to lead us, our trust and honor of God, is placed in the “manifestation of Christ” as He expresses it through His Fatherhood in the appropriate leadership of the group. The day you read your Bible and see a different interpretation of God’s Word than the one given by the Apostle Blair Adams, or the day you to disagree with the extent of their authority, then you are no longer in right submission and they can say of you, “he refused to conform to the way of life.” (Message edited by foreverhis on May 07, 2007)   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 2:58 am:        The result: a decided change in how some ex-members view Homestead Heritage, Wheeler says. When most of them left, they still held the group in high regard. Now, he says, they call it a cult and lie about what the group believes. No. Most,incuding my faimly and myself, were full of fear. They either believed they could not please God when they could not please the leaders and gave up the faith, or they knew God Himself had called them to leave but were afraid of the drastic actions the leaders might take against them if they spoke out. Many would be banned from contact with family members and friends inside. Some have been banned from even attending weddings of family even though they have not publicly spoken out their disagreement. Some would have stretched truths or lies told against them to keep current members from respecting their decision to leave. One has had a book written detailing past faults and confessions that were required reading by all HH adult members at that time: an example of what can happen to any whistle blowers. It sacred me into to silence for years. But the healing power of God and the time we remained silent were used to go on with our lives. Now that those things have occurred, we can turn and ask God, “What would you have us do?” and not be afraid to share our experiences so others can make a more informed decision before taking the oath and making the life long commitment of loyalty to the group and submission to their authority as “Jesus in the Flesh”   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:03 am:        Since then, Watchman Fellowship has made Homestead Heritage its “cause célèbre,” Wheeler says, and has attempted to contact and recruit anyone who leaves the group. Watchman Fellowship did not contact us, we contacted them. Phil Arnn encouraged us to go on with our lives and forget about Homestead, letting God heal us. I told him I wanted to do something to help others, but he told us we just needed to get on with our lives. Years went by, then without any input form anyone else outside my family I began to speak up. I put up a simple web page encouraging others to read books that helped me. The page included an e-mail address that others used to contact me. My first Yahoo Group of ex-members came about years before fact net. There was a link to the group on the web page. I had no way of contacting most ex members so the group was small. During all this time I prayed for those I left behind and the young people who left that had given up faith. Later I learned that other ex-members were gaining courage and had been sharing their experiences when God led people with questions to them. Our courage and the efforts we made were done without the help of each other. One year in the recent past, I heard Watcman had a workshop for ex-members, but I know that even this was long after most of us are active now, were already doing what we could where we lived and on line. Then Phil Arnn created the first thread on Fact Net and from word of mouth and through e-mail and internet searches many join in. Now our efforts are more noticeable to HH, but only because they can be seen in one place together. To give credit to Phil Arnn and Watchman Fellowship for our “Change of view” concerning HH is a major delusion. Doesn’t it make sense that our view of Homestead changed before we left, and that is why we left. For most of us, if Homestead was what it shows the public and potential members, we would still be there. In my opinon, I can see where blaming a man or an organization would comfort them, because without that they would have to ask, “Why and how can so many, each on their own, draw the same conclusions about Homestead.” Truth is, in the group, we didn’t dare voice contrary thoughts or questions to each other within our peer level, yet many of us still overcame their fear tactics of “breaking the vow” and “losing salvation” and even shunning and left in obedience to the will of God. The article may lead some to believe there are only 12 ex-members who believe HH is a harmful cult. That is not the case. 12 is the number of people Cindy Culp, the author, interviewed. There are many, many more. There are some who were not able to be contacted. Some are still in the "healing and getting on with life stage," others don't want to make thinks worse with family they have left in Homestead, Some don't want to be known as ex-cult members by their new friends and employers, some don't want to their through anymore, and some are still afraid for other reasons. In order to be interviewed we had to give our names. Some of us felt ready to do that, we felt it was our responsibility. (Message edited by foreverhis on May 07, 2007)   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:19 am:        I know more than just my husband and I tried to lovingly and quietly bring concerns to the leaders of HH before we left. They insist we left because of some “sin in our lives,” or unwillingness to “live the life”; it is an easy out for them. It is easier then self examination or admitting that they could be wrong and God called us to leave. It is hard to even let the idea that you and your family might be in a cult enter your thoughts. You have given so much of yourself and your life time to the group that you immediately dismiss the idea as one from Satan himself. After all in HH you are taught that the enemy’s greatest weapon against you is to get you to question those in authority. If you ever admit that you have had anything to do with a loved one, (a spouse, your child, a good friend,) being in an abusive cult there is excruciating pain and guilt to bare. It is hard to forgive yourself. I know I have been there. This alone is enough to keep a person in denial. If you are in a cult and you believe your salvation depends on your complete submission, even your thoughts being in submission, to the leadership as “Jesus in the Flesh,” then all the more difficult it is to let that question enter your mind. Add to that the fear of the cost of shunning by friends and even family and it will take the mighty hand of the living God to open your mind. What if you are one of the leaders? What if you are responsible not only for your own family, but an entire congregation being lead astray from the truth? How much more would that hurt. How painful and humiliating. To go from one who “is being used by God” and all the power and authority that is supposedly keeping these people in submission to what you thought was of God, to one where you realize that you have deceived not only yourself but hundreds of others… Your self-denial of the truth has hurt others in their walk with God and caused some to loose faith entirely… two women have killed themselves and their children while in your ministry… and you might be responsible for that… It is way too much to bare. Denial is automatic. This is why we have called on many to pray with us. The enemy has these people working hard to create an image not only for the public, but one in their own minds. I lived in that fantasy in my mind. I closed my eyes to the abuses. I dismissed anything that might be wrong. I said to myself, it has to be God’s will for these things to be happening, because God is not an abuser, and these men are Jesus in the flesh. When things got to heavy to dismiss I would put on my smile until I could forget about them. It was easier then facing the truth. I thank my family and my friends outside of HH for praying continually for us while we were in HH. I thank God for getting us out before our children were old enough to marry in and we would face the threat of them shunning us. It took a miracle for us to open or minds to the truth. God provided one. I pray for you inside HH the way others prayed for me. May God’s will be done. (Message edited by foreverhis on May 07, 2007)   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.194.110.60 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:04 pm:        Woah! It says that your last post was at 3:19 a.m. Don't you sleep? ;-)   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.194.110.60 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:15 pm:        There's plenty of things inside of HH that I don't agree with, but maybe they should just be allowed to believe what they want to believe. I personally have known a lot of them over the years, and they're all good people from what I can tell. Sure, I have my beefs with their, I think, erroneous doctrines, but I don't believe they're forcing anyone to stay in the community. Of course, I'm sure it's hard to get a clear picture being on the outside looking in.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.222.214 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:48 pm:        Should they be allowed to destroy families?   seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:45 pm:        Trilogy, You have no idea. It is so different on the inside. Not pretty...........   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.187.64 Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 11:37 pm:        Yes, if Trilogy KNEW what some of us know...   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:57 am:        Trilogy, I was WIDE a wake, lol. I had got up at 6:30 am that day and at 4:30 am that night I laid down and was still awake laying in bed for another hour before I could fall asleep at 5:30am. I got up at 7:00am made my husband breakfast and was refreshed and ready to start the day. I had a good day. I believe God had me awake so I could have some time out of my busy life with seven children still at home. I spent time here and praying. (I type slow, smile.) FH   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:03 am:        Trilogy, honestly, there are some things I can not even print here on a public form. For example, I knew for years about the two Mom’s killing themselves and their children, but I did not post it here even though one case had already been all over the news when it happened. (The news was kept from knowing she was really apart of HH and the second case.) After some one else posted about I was able to talk about it. There are cases… I just don’t want to bring in names. I hope you can understand that. Remember that the husband makes every decision for the wife in HH. When a woman in HH is having a baby her husband has the say so, except if they use HH midwives, in that case he abdicates that authority to them or the midwives will leave. If there is a crisis the midwives leave and the wife, who is still in total unquestioning submission to her husband, is at his mercy. He decides IF she will go to the hospital. If in the hospital the doctors knowing that the wife needs a blood transfusion and asks the woman to sign papers, she will turn to her husband and seek his permission. He decides if she gets the blood transfusion. Heck, he decides if she has babies even if she could loose her life. If anything goes wrong with the birth, especially her death, it will be blamed on the woman. They use the verse: 1 Timothy 2:15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. This verse is used in preparing a woman for labor. I was taught if ever I had not fulfilled one of these conditions, (faith, love, and holiness, with self-control,) then I must confess to my husband and the midwives, who go to the elders…. She must repent. The woman feels great fear before a birth, fear that she might not open her heart wide enough for God to show her everything, and miss repenting of a lack of faith, love, and holiness, or self-control that she has blinded herself from. It is not a fear she is likely to share with anyone. This is supposed to be a time of joy and great excited ment, but in the back of her mind the thought remains. If the woman dies or nearly dies, she will be blamed. Not, the midwives, not the husband… the one to be blamed will be the one who is in submission to all the others and doesn’t make the decisions during birth. You see, because God has made this “promise,” no matter how bad the others fail her, God will preserve her if she fulfills 1Tim 2:15. I vividly remember a Sunday meeting when one of my friend’s husband stood up and confessed the sins of his wife while she lay at home in bed after a home birth crisis. I heard later that they were still waiting to see if she would live while he was there making her confessions. Don't think you would ever put your own wife, if you have/had one, through things. In the fellowship life is life... you go along with what you are taught, it comes from “Jesus in the flesh.” God gives His word through those in authority over you. For the wife... that includes her husband. He will decided, (after "passing it by" the leaders) if the wife or the children go to the doctor or hospital. I have horror stories I could tell. But how could I prove them? I could prove the horror stories where the women killed themselves then their children. There are death records. But how can I prove that the leaders are at fault. I have to let the fact that two women under the same ministry done the unspeakable speak for itself. Still people will be in denial. If they don't believe then it isn't true? FH (Message edited by foreverhis on May 08, 2007)   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:13 am:        Trilogy, I personally have had two blood transfusions after my births. One time was with six weeks after my baby was born. I called my husband to tell him I was hemorrhaging. At least an hour later, I was finally on the road to the hospital in DALLAS. We were advised to go there in order to protect HH. The doctors in Waco were already suspicious about what was going on with home births in Waco and they didn’t want to add to it. The sweet sisters of HH took care of my other children. Before it was over, one of them would even be nursing my baby for me. You couldn’t ask for more love than that. But… Trilogy, does the love of those sisters make up for the fact that it is more important to prevent more possible suspicions about HH tan me getting to go to a local hospital? At the hospital at the woman’s clinic in Dallas, because I did not come in in an ambulance they put me in the emergency waiting room with the others. I could not go in an ambulance from Waco to Dallas, that would have looked foolish. The EMT would have wanted to taken me to a local hospital. So here I am in the waiting room. There wasn’t even an empty seat. I had to stand against a wall letting it hold me up. In all our “sweet Homestead” humility and trust God attitude that you visitors love so much, I stood there, to humble to ask anyone else to get up so I could have their seat. I looked to my husband, but he didn’t ask. I was there in my night gown and robe. My pad full and I was trying to hide the blood stains on the back of my gown by standing against the wall. There were people everywhere. The public waiting room bathroom was busy. Every time I would get a chance I went in and grabbed paper towels to clean up the blood dripping down my legs and then shoved fresh paper towels in my panties before going back in the hall to meet my husband. The blood on the back of my gown and robe was getting hard to hide from everyone who stared. I prayed constantly, held back fears and tears, and said God I trust you. We still had our new born baby with us at this point so I could nurse her. I don’t know how much time past before then sent me to triage. There they took a sample of my blood and would send it to the lab for a blood count. Back out to the waiting room finally I got an empty chair. I looked around. The people around me were sick. I began to worry that my baby would catch something. I expressed my thoughts to my husband and of course he was tired and not in the best of moods. He said harshly, “Where is you faith?!” I apologized. It was the only time I let my tears fall. I felt like I had let God down. I repented right there. SIX hours later I would finally be called into a room. I was still alive. I had seen so much blood I couldn’t understand it. The nurse left. My husband was out in the hall with the baby. I laid down and tears came from my eyes as I prayed. I was dizzy and my body was tingling and numb. I prayed God would spare my life so I could raise my four children. Then I forced my self up to a sit and raise my hands as high as I could and started to pray out loud in tongues. I found I couldn’t stay up so I laid back down, but I felt His presence very strongly. A nurse came in she opened my folder and for the fist time some one looked at my blood test that was taken HOURS ago. She gasped and said “Honey, why didn’t you tell us it was this bad.” I said, “I told you I was hemorrhaging.” She told me they would be preparing a blood transfusion right away.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:14 am:        I was put on a table with wheels and rushed a different room. I still haven’t seen my husband. I signed the papers. If I had been more coherent I would have thought to ask for him so I could get his permission. They began the transfusion, one bag in each arm. They drew the curtain and the arguing began… The doctors were arguing which of them would have me. Neither of them wanted me. I heard that one doctor had already had three deaths that week and didn’t want another. Finally a doctor came into check me. I couldn’t keep my eyes open, but I opened them once in awhile. I saw his face as he asked me questions. I told him I had a baby six weeks ago. He looked at my abdomen and pressed. He yelled for help and a nurse came with gloves. He yelled, “I don’t have time!” Then without gloves on, he reached in and pulled out a football sized blood clot from my uterus. Blood began going everywhere. (I learned later that it was the clot that had stopped my bleeding while I was in the waiting room.) In no time doctors were everywhere. When things quitted down enough, they let my husband come in. A couple from HH who worked for my husband and was my husband’s best friend had come to the Dallas hospital to help with the baby. The brother came in when my husband went out. He told me later he looked at my he knew I was going to die. At first they couldn’t stop the bleeding. Once the bleeding stopped they began to deal with infections, (Probably due to the doctor having to go in without gloves.) One of them was resistant and for three days they gave me antibiotics intravenously. A lot more was going to happen before I could go home were up but I think I have said enough about this one. I don’t even want to go into what I went through when I got home. I always wonder how different it would have been if I had been taken by ambulance to Waco. This is all to prepare you for the next birth and blood transfusion, the birth I had in the dirty hotel room in the little town north of Waco because I had no say so. Very few people had ever heard what happened those days. You just don't tell people, "I had my baby in a motel room." You don't even tell your sisters in the fellowship. My group leaders knew I was going to have my baby in that motel room, and they were obligated to tell the elders. They knew what was planned. They know everything that goes on. They confirm God's will or the husband is sent to "pray some more" until the "answers to his prayes line up to what God has told the elders. FH   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.187.64 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:24 am:        Does this personal account sound like God fearing, caring leaders? People can stand on the outside all day and admire the false beauty but after you have been on the inside you realize how ugly and ungodly things really are. Why don't the leaders if they have the fear of God in their hearts just come out and say, we are wrong...we took a wrong path...Pride and destruction aare before a fall said the wise man...   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:11 pm:        One Who Has Hope wrote on the trib site: May 8, 2007 3:23 PM "But how many people have also been hurt in mainstream churches?" I ask, "How many other main stream churches have had TWO mothers so void of hope that they killed themselves AND their children?" How many other churches blame some miscarriages on sin in the mothers life? Now that is compassion!?, kind of like "morn with those who are morning"...? Talk about hurt. That hurts more than any bullet. And they DO yell and scream and point fingers. On time I they had me sit on a foot stool in the middle of the room while they walked around me and told me how sinful I was because I said God keeps His promises. They said He doesn’t have to keep promises to me because He didn't keep His promise to Jesus. They said, "The Bible says if you honor your mother and father you shall live long on the earth and Jesus honored His mother and father more than anyone, and He died in his thirties." They told me I was full of pride because I said God would keep his promises to me, and I must think I am better than Jesus. They shook my faith so bad that night that I was choking on my tears. I cried so hard when I got home I was still crying and I was throwing up. By the way, they stopped my husband at the front door and didn't let him come in with me while these group leader's wives treated me this way. They broke me. They broke us into those sweet submissive members that every one likes so much. I learned to walk on egg shells fearing that I might say or do the wrong thing, all the while thankful that the Lord would correct me and save my soul through them if I did slip up. Like a beaten child or wife, it had to be my fault when harsh correction would come. You tell yourself you deserve it, that it is good for the flesh, that it must die. Anytime something happens that hurts you tell yourself, "It is just my flesh." If you see someone else hurt you tell yourself, "It bothers me because if it was me I wouldn't like it, so it's just my flesh." The things I justified happening to people... in the guise of it's just my flesh rising up.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:13 pm:        A bit on the lighter side but not much, lol: I remember the first time I heard my HH neighbor whistle for his wife like dog. (She wasn't that far away, she would of heard him call her name.) She jumped up and ran, literally ran all out, to him. I got use to seeing it after awhile, but that first time I knew I had some flesh to die. While now that flesh is back, because I again don't like even thinking about a man whistling to his wife like she is a dog and her running to him like she is one. If my husband did that to me now I would have a lot of feelings to repent of. lol. Ok I had to lighten the load. The story is true and it isn't funny, but it makes me giggle to think of my husband doing that to me and me thinking to myself, "die flesh die."   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:20 pm:        I don't know about you all... but just seeing Howard Wheelers face again... and reading those lies... it made it all real again. I have cried tears... tears about the past: remembering the fear, tears for those still in there; especially the young people, tears for the Blake children, tears for the lost years of my children’s lives that should have been different for them. Hey, my little girl is having a birthday party this weekend. We are going to play pin the tail on the donkey and musical chairs. We are decorating for a tropical Hawaiian theme; Bright yellow and blazing red-orange balloons and flowers. She is eight years old and she can wear bright colored girly clothes and shoes. Lots of fun stuff. Good Christian fun. Lots of games and prizes, pizza, then white cake and ice cream, with sugar even. lol. It is all she can talk about. We will celebrate on the porch and watch the humming birds come to the feeder…A carefree afternoon of fun and laughter with little girls running and giggling. What a contrast to seeing my other little girl grow up in the fellowship. I had to throw away the bright sneaker her grandpa bought her. The last three years there she cried herself to sleep at night and I could say nothing that would console her. Sweetie, if you are reading this: I wish I could turn back the clock and do it all different. I wish I could have given you what I am able to give your sisters. I am sorry, so sorry that I took away your childhood with HH. If I could turn back the clock, the first thing I would do is run out and buy you bright pink sneakers like your grandpa wanted you to have. I know it sounds silly to anyone who hasn't been there. The sneakers are just symbolic to me of a whole lot more. But if you could have seen her eyes when he handed me the sneakers. Her face lit up-… then cast down when I said she couldn't have them. It was years before I saw that kind of simple joy on her face again... When it takes so little to please a child... How do you explain such meaningless soberness to them as, "You cant have those bright pink sneakers because they are worldly….??? Pray for me and all the others who have had to relive their nightmares of HH these last few days. All the good times in HH lumped together do not make up for them. I will be gone for at least three days and it maybe a couple weeks before I have time to sit at a PC again. You all hang tight and keep praying. God is for us all. You are in my prayers. That means you too Mr. Wheeler; you need them. God have mercy on his soul. Bless you all, FH   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:38 pm:        The above posts are the ramblings of someone who has lost touch with reality. I truly pity her. DOwen   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.252 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:10 pm:        Yes, I saw that kind of treatment at HH...so sad...so unbelievable. I could not believe it at first. I kept asking questions and questions they do not like...   common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.127.95.22 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:28 am:        FH, Buy your daughter some bright pink sneakers! I don't care how old she is now -- I guarantee you that her face will still light up. I know...I bought myself a pair just the other day!!   happyx New member Username: happyx Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 72.48.80.24 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:51 am:        Robin, I'm so sorry about all the things you experienced, so sorry about the experience at the hospital,and it makes me so sad to think of a little girl crying like that at night. It also makes me so thankful that we got out when we did, before our kids were pre-teens or teenagers. I have my regrets with my kids but Thank God there aren't more. I'm sure that your daughter knows how sorry you are for those things. I'm sure she understands and is thankful that your out and that things are different for her little sister. I know how much we want go back. I wish I could go back to my pregnancies, to my first one and enjoy it more. Enjoy the first kick, instead of birth questions and praying through and wondering up until the last few weeks where we were even going to have our baby because we didn't even have a home of our own and were at the mercy of the brothers and their decisions. Stories that would take forever to tell. Too hard. Thank God for my husband. We were young but we got older and wiser and he stood up for what he believed and for me and his kids. Thank God! Happy Happy Birthday to your little girl!!! May ya'll have a wonderful birth-day!!! P.S I was thinking the same thing as common sense. Buy her some pink sneakers!   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 1:30 am:        Thank you, DO. I learned how to monolog from the great Apostle BA himself. Smile. Yes I was rambling. It was quite therapeutic. After reading the HH spin and out right lies I needed blow off some. It feels good to get it off my chest. Hey, I am glad you are still here. Taken from the trib article: Some people might think it’s absurd to assume that just because such developments have occurred, the dire prediction about Homestead Heritage coming to a violent end will also come true. But stranger things have happened, he says. Wow. Cult paranoia. I can not believe Homestead would make a slip as big as this one right there in the Waco paper. If they become obsessed with this kind of talk it is time for the members to run to the nearest exit. The apocalypse is predicted by a Homestead prophet... It is the one cult element that had been missing from HH when I was there: The prediction of the Groups’ violent end; Its apocalypse. By the way, years ago a young girl told me a dream/nightmare she had once. (We had been talking about how unstable some of the homestead young people seemed and she remembered having the dream.) In the dream she could see the HH congregation gathered in the main building having a Sunday meeting. A young member gets up and walks out. As soon as the young member clears the building a bomb goes off. In that dream the end came from within. Two mothers in homestead killed themselves and then their children. Maybe the next one they drive crazy… It is awful to think about, but Yarden did bring it up. Two other reasons to pray for Homestead members. God preserve their lives and their minds.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 2:20 am:        Thank you common sense and happyx. I really apreciate you taking time to encourage me. Happyx, I offer thanks to God that you are out and away from the fear and stress. I 'm going shopping for two pairs bright pink sneakers. One for me. Thanks again.   urka New member Username: urka Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 75.51.52.126 Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 11:07 am:        lol @ bright pink sneakers. I love you too, mom!   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.194.110.60 Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 2:48 am:        I have horror stories I could tell. But how could I prove them? Exactly. It's all "he said, she said" at this point. Probably the most interesting part of the whole article was HH's apparent confession that they have the most "light" of any church they know of. Humility goes a long way toward gaining respect.   not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.181.210 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 9:51 am:        wow what a story FH! thanks for having the courage to share the truth. howard wheeler is nothing but a coward and i can't believe what dowen wrote. you know things like this happened but deny it for your own reasons. shameful in my book. happy birthday to your daughter!!   not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.181.210 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:30 am:        wow i can't believe what i am reading in the Homestead Heritage fights back article! talk about nuggets of truth! some of it does state the facts, but at other times it clearly embellishes real life experiences. i just will never be able to accept the fact that "elders" or is it now "ministers" can lie so easily. also i just read about what jeremy wrote, including the ranch in Colorado. ok the church owned it. who got to take vacations there? did any member in good standing get to go there? nope. (Message edited by not scared on May 13, 2007)   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:26 pm:        from the irs site: "Apart from any appearance of impropriety, organizations will lose their tax exempt status unless they operate in a manner consistent with their charitable purposes. Serving private interests more than insubstantially is inconsistent with accomplishing charitable purposes. For example, paying an individual who is in a position of substantial authority excessive compensation serves a private interest. Providing facilities, goods, or services to an individual who is in a position of substantial authority also serves a private interest unless the benefits are part of a reasonable compensation arrangement or they are available to the public on equal terms and conditions."   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.58 Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 10:49 am:        A little off that subject but I was so sad to see the lies by HW... lies or lies and Sunday services are NOT open to the public along with the other things that he lied about... I had a person call me in Brazil last night from the states that was NOT permitted to come to a Sunday service....so sad for that person needs God and to read a outright lie in the Waco paper..so sad... It would have been better for them just to tell the truth at least whether right or wrong we respect people for telling the truth even though we might now always agree...   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.243 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 2:03 pm:        Hi Folks, Thank you, Mrs. Alvear, for giving us yet another example of how you speak falsely about HH. Mrs Alvear "lies or lies and Sunday services are NOT open to the public along with the other things that he lied about... " Yet we know from experience that Mrs. Alvear never will retract or apologize to HH when she speaks falsely with railing accusations. Here is the section from the Waco Trib article (just got around to reading it). Notice that Mrs. Alvear had totally changed what was said .. and worse than this error .. Mrs. Alvear has used her own twisting to accuse an HH brother of 'lying'. This type of stuff is rather common and why the oppos are in disrepute. ================== Waco Trib article ... a statement Arnn made later ... about Homestead Heritage’s Sunday meetings being open only to certain people. While generally true, the statement is deceptive because it falsely implies meetings are closed to hide secrets, the group says. The truth is visitors are asked to come to Friday night meetings because they will be more edifying, followers say. The format is akin to that of Sunday services at most churches, plus the meetings are more intimate. Held in members’ homes and attended by about 100 people, their size allows visitors to get to know the group more easily, they say. On Sundays, however, services often revolve around church business or discussions about how the group can become a more perfect expression of the body of Christ, Wheeler says. Such meetings tend to flow week to week and would likely prove difficult for a visitor to make sense of, he says. That’s not to say nonmembers never come to Sunday meetings. On occasion they do, members say. =============== So HH goes to yeoman efforts to simply answer properly and fully .. and rather than using that as a point for discussion .. "fair enough, how about this and that" and dialog properly, we get the par-for-the-course totally false oppo 'lying' accusation above from Mrs. Alvear. Tis very sad. Oh, yes, all this has been gone over on these forums as well. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.243 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 2:17 pm:        Hi Folks, Ok, the above is a par-for-the-course lie from the oppos. ==== However the darkest sickness above is from 'Foreverhis'. Now when she writes about her own experiences, yes we can expect twisting, but it is her liberty to express her views and any can consider. However when she goes into realms, situations, that she knows nothing (not even the most basic facts) to viciously and falsely accuse, this must be noted. For a long time I let it pass but the dark lie is expressed above yet again, I sought her out privately with the request that she would make a public correction and apparently she cannot do it. Honesty is not possible, the sick viciousness is too deep. The right thing to do would be to humbly retract, with tears of repentance, her shameful words, about a situation where she knows nothing. Details are not really necessary, probably not appropriate here, yet 'Foreverhis' knows she is falsely accusing HH on the most fundamental issues. Dark accusations. These are folks whom I respect deeply so I am constrained in public discourse. Given a sincere personal request I might share a bit more privately. The words above from 'Foreverhis' are so off-base and twisted and wicked that I simply leave it as I have above. There comes a point where the stench of her words must be noted. Perhaps 'Foreverhis' will take an integrity stance. She knows what should be done. The proper time is today. Shalom, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.218.7 Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:36 pm:        Sadly Prax sides with untruth...Someone that visited only once called me just last week and told me they could see HH was a cult by their tight control on members... Prax you will have much to answer to God for on judgment day. I would not want to be in your shoes.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.243 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 8:07 am:        Hi Folks, Please, notice how even above, when Mrs. Alvear simply speaks an obvious untruth, a false accusation of 'lying' against an elder in a Godly ministry, a false accusation that anybody can see, Mrs. Alvear is totally unable to acknowledge the error and speak humbly and correctly. This is evidence of bondage by a dark principality, a spiritual principality that blocks and prevents her from being honest in anything regarding HH. Now as for my feet and peace before God as one who seeks to be sensitive and fair in discussing the things of God .. and standing before God. There is such a need to be sensitive and responsive to the Holy Spirit. We can allow Paul to the Ephesisans to speak Ephesians 6:12-18 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Thank you Lord Jesus for your armor and protection, for protection from the fiery darts, for feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, and for allowing me to share in service. In Jesus name, Praxaluh   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.214.66 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:16 am:        Time will tell...so I will not waste my time with foolish cover up...it will all be revealed...   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.214.66 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:21 am:        And thank the Lord for warning us before HH destroyed our family and our churches...and thank many of His precious people for warning us and helping us.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.13.214.66 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:04 pm:        And thank the Lord for warning us before HH destroyed our family and our churches...and thank many of His precious people for warning us and helping us.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:29 am:        On Sundays, however, services often revolve around church business or discussions about how the group can become a more perfect expression of the body of Christ, Wheeler says. Such meetings tend to flow week to week and would likely prove difficult for a visitor to make sense of, he says. "would likely prove difficult for a visitor to make sense of," No kidding. It is hard to make sense of people being yelled and screamed at. It is hard to make sense of a miscarriages or a birth deformity being blamed on a mother's or father’s spiritual condition. It is hard to make sense out of a man who claims to be an apostle and his anger towards people for the look on their faces or not worshiping fervently enough, or yelling "No more Baptist songs." It is hard to make sense out of his preoccupation with Greek mythology and his claim of levitation and an evil spirit who appeared as old woman who sat by his bed, there as an attack him for him doing "God's work." They wouldn't want the public to see him stomp out during a meeting while saying about himself that they will not see his face again until they can say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; his arrogance and claims are hard to understand. "Church business or discussions about how the group can become a more perfect expression of the body of Christ." That's it! Cloak it with acceptable terminology, and it makes it less offensive. Arrange a couple pre orchestrated meetings to look normal and let in prominent visitors like the McCords come to "prove" to the world there is nothing to hide then ease your conscience and say you did it for "their sake." Yes what can be "so hard to understand," that after many home meetings that visitors are still not allowed to attend a Sunday meeting without the rare occasion first being pre-arranged? During Sunday meetings members stand up and give confessions and testimonies. In choreographing the Sunday meeting for Mrs. McCord the members’ testimonies had to be cleared in advanced by leaders. We even sung different songs; songs that later would not be accepted in the regular meeting. The meeting was FAR, FAR, Far from the normal HH meeting and the woman thought she was getting to attend a "Sunday meeting." My conscience bothered me for being a part of that charade. I found out later that it bothered many of us.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:31 am:        The truth is visitors are asked to come to Friday night meetings because they will be more edifying, followers say. So does this mean that the Sunday meeting would be edifying for them, but because the other meetings are MORE edifying they are not permitted to come to Sunday meetings? People Ask yourself what is so less "edifying" about "church business or discussions about how the group can become a more perfect expression of the body of Christ" that the doors are guarded and visitors must be turned away at the door? Their Apostles is not at the home meetings. You do not get to see his "authority" or the god like awe he receives from the people when he addresses them, nor their fear when he is displeased. Sunday is his day to be free with his authority. They are right, it wouldn't make sense to you. Not that you are dumb or anything... Don't feel bad, even some members are not holy enough to attend. Besides we were told you would be responsible for all the "light" you would receive during the meeting and if found it unacceptable, it could have eternal consequences. Well, they have to avoid putting that stumbling block in front of you so they put gaurds at the door. Go to your own church on Sunday, the one with less light, and be accountable for less. First go to other HH meetings and get involved until you are ready to accept everything and anything they tell you as God's Word and God's will and are ready to do "His" bidding as it is expressed to you through the appropriate channels of His authority in the body. Until then, it would be too much for you, and wouldn't "make sense." In my opinion, that is a rather nice way of saying "unacceptable."   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:09 am:        In the article: The group is led by a contingent of 20 men called ministers who are similar to what other churches call elders. Although the group was founded by Blair Adams, he has no more authority than the other ministers, they say. Do all the 20 ministers, (notice they weren't even calling them elders,) really have as much authority in HH as the five fold ministry? They have a hierarchy, but instead of defending it, they now claim it doesn't exist. Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 (Pg 37) The covenant therefore determines who will inform the culture, the society, the individual…. This is so because by entering into covenant with someone we give them some degree of a regulating function of our lives: we agree to accept or reject the information that this person, being or institution accepts or rejects. In theory, men may speak of tolerance of differences, but in practice when those differences penetrate to the core of individuals and corporate identity, conflict becomes inevitable. If the relationship is to be maintained, one view must ultimately prevail… The covenant therefore determines, as we shall see, who will function as the true sovereign of a community and, because the sovereign is the one who provides the ultimate information to the community, who thereby determines the image... Pg39 What provides the basis of a sovereign’s authority in a culture or community? What makes someone or some group the supreme ruler, exercising sovereignty within a given society and serving the source of all information that flows through the covenant that holds the community together? The basis of all sovereignty, that is, the basis of all final and ultimate authority, depends upon origins: The ultimate sovereign over a thing is the one who has created that thing, the one who is the original source of information to those who compose that society. The ultimate authority is the author. Now Reference’s from his book , “The Order of Perfection” In Blairs writings he explicitly states that the Apostle answers to no one but God. “ To briefly reiterate, apostle means , as shown, one who is “sent forth”. The apostle of Jesus Christ is one who is sent forth directly by the Spirit of Jesus and is directly responsible to the Spirit. No intermediate ministry stands between him and the Head. He says this NOT because he believes everyone stands directly responsible to the spirit without an intermediate ministry between him and the head, which would be pointless if was}. But he says this to differentiate the position of the Apostle from all others. He is the first ( 1 Cor. 12:28) in God’s unfolding chain of revelation to the church. His is the initiating ministry. His primary duty is to preach the revelation of God by which the Body structures and builds itself, to bring the living word – not that he has “built upon” but that he has founded, initiated – to God’s people as a whole ( 2 Tim. 4:2; Rom. 10:14; 1 Cor. 1:17; 9:16; Mark 3:14 ) As the initiating ministry within the Body, the apostle is the chief means whereby the Spirit directly initiates building activity within the Body of Christ. Everything , the Bible tells us, must be done in decency and in order (1 Cor. 14:40, KJV ), and the order through which the Spirit initiates new revelation, sows the founding seed of his overall pattern for the churches, is through the apostolic ministry.” Blair Adams is more than just the founder, he is their Apostle and it was plain to me while there, that he expresses the "one view that must prevail."   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.243 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 3:59 pm:        Hi Folks, 'Foreverhis' it is hard to take anything you say seriously when you have propagated deeply sick, confused twistings as I mentioned above. You really would do well to come clean, telling the forum to please disregard your repeated words and accusations on one situation that you have tried to parlay for political purposes .. as I indicated to you first privately. We know you are very hostile to HH. And clearly (as we have discussed here before) the HH pattern to have a weekly unopen meeting (for the body of believers, for the edifying of the saints, for special purposes) is neither unique nor hard to understand. It is common in both Christendom and community-dom to have meetings that are gauged towards internal and special purposes. And on a regular basis. The Sunday meetings are largely internal and it is rather easy to see that allowing any false spirits and rebellions to drift in week after week (as often occurred when HH had open meetings) will usually totally change the focus of the meeting. Simply preventing the desired goal. Any fellowship or community that is earnest will move in the direction of meetings that are for internal sharings. Those of us who were in HH when most all the meetings were open saw again and again how the 'special needs' would take over, per the Holy Spirit need. At times at the expense of ministering to the whole body. Many here should be able to understand that a far better pattern is for such needs to be ministered in the more personal and direct sharings of the smaller home-based meetings. So the proper place for meetings designed to minister to the body of believers and special happenings should not be a point of contention here, unless folks are simply straining to fabricate accusations out of nothing. As to your particular offense at one meeting, you are welcome to share away, however your vitriol permeates every supposedly descriptive sentence. And we can see that you posted on this as a 'cover' for Mrs. Alvear, who was caught yet again with a false accusation of 'lying'. The deep spiritual problem there .. ongoing false accusations of the most base kind, unrepentant, 'no apologies' .. really speaks volumes to the readers here. As to your concern about the 'no more authority' reference in the article .. fine to bring up (except that your tinge is always to accuse) although since it is not actually a quotation it is clear that much context can be lost. This would require a whole discussion of hierarchal and functional authority, day-to-day ministry, diverse callings. And the full context. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.40.141 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:54 pm:        Praxuluh is not even on Sunday level at HH...don't pay any attention to his endless posts... People have backed wrong causes before only to find themselves trapped...I feel for Prax..   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.36 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 5:45 pm:        Praxuluh...I have not lied...   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:25 pm:        (As to your concern about the 'no more authority' reference in the article .. fine to bring up except that your tinge is always to accuse) although since it is not actually a quotation it is clear that much context can be lost. This would require a whole discussion of hierarchal and functional authority, day-to-day ministry, diverse callings. And the full context. My point was NOT whether "hierarchal and functional authority" is right or wrong. The point is that it exists in HH; and HH says it does not. Saying it does not is a direct and huge lie. They would have been better of defending it. They have written too many books explaining it to say now that it does not exist. True or false: Although the group was founded by Blair Adams, he has no more authority than the other ministers How do they qualify this statement? Is Blair Adams no longer an Apostle? Is HH no longer an apostolic ministry? Do they no longer believe in the same version of the five fold ministry that they did when we were there? (HH stated in the article that have not changed their faith, just reworded it.) How can you let them by with this lie? This should wake even YOU up.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.243 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:51 pm:        Hi Folks, 'Foreverhis' .. you are not even reading well. I specifically pointed out that you were making a big issue only from a reporter's short summary statement .. without real context. That may be a basis to ask questions but not to be an accuser of 'liar'. Did you see a context of hierarchal and functional authority and five-fold ministry discussion there ? Quote, please. Just like Mrs. Alvear above, rather than seeking truth all you want to do is accuse 'liar'. This is a very sick part of the oppo mentality. Even worse above when you deceived the forum to try to make politics about an earlier situation years back of which you know virtually nothing. A post that makes you a more like lady macbeth than 'foreverhis'. Even now you don't have the integrity to simply come back to the forum and say properly: "oops.. I made an error, spoke out of place, please disregard" Both you and Mrs. Alvear and a few other oppos seem to be oppressed to continually bring railing accusations. The one oppo with a cautious tongue and a conscience and a sense of accountability about his words (this is my view and perspective) no longer posts, so nothing written by the oppos can be trusted. 'Foreverhis' do you have any other basis for twisting to saying that HH claims no aspect of hierarchal and functional authority exists beyond your taking a reporters statement and running with it improperly, extrapolating wildly ? HH written material was available to the reporter - so do you really want to claim that they simply said the opposite to the reporter of what they had written ? Or perhaps, much more simply, the discussion was far more simple, how the fellowship functions daily through the ministry and anointing and gifts given severally by God. Halleluyah :-) ! You need to think things through a little deeper, with a bit more sincerity before God, before placing yourself as an accuser of the brethren. Shalom, Praxaluh   common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.228.14.173 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:49 pm:        }You need to think things through a little deeper, with a bit more sincerity before God, before placing yourself as an accuser of the brethren. Hmmmmmmm............   common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.228.14.173 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:49 pm:        You need to think things through a little deeper, with a bit more sincerity before God, before placing yourself as an accuser of the brethren. Hmmmmmmm............   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:09 pm:        'Foreverhis' do you have any other basis for twisting to saying that HH claims no aspect of hierarchal and functional authority exists beyond your taking a reporters statement and running with it improperly, extrapolating wildly ? HH written material was available to the reporter - so do you really want to claim that they simply said the opposite to the reporter of what they had written ? Ok, sorry. I thought they had done it again. I do not expect the reporter to read hundreds of pages of written material to see if what HH told her was true. (They must not of handed her a simple statement of faith because they do believe in one.) I expect her to repeat what she understood them to say. From my personal experience, their spin is often misunderstood and I have good reason to believe it is often intentional. Are you saying that they did not tell the reporter that BA "has no more authority than the other ministers?" Did someone HH tell you they were mis-quoted or mis-understood? Can you tell us what they said that was so misinterpreted? Or are YOU jumping to conclusions also? Are you assuming they don't lie or intentionally mislead? I am NOT just assuming that they do. I witnessed it and had been instructed by them to do it while I was a member concerning the prenatal care of my home births as well as answers in the first copy of the book, "answers to visitors’ questions." I may have assumed too much in this particular case, but I do not think I was out of line to base my assumption on what the reporter reported HH themselves as having conveyed to her. I will issue temporary apology and will wait for you to confirm that they were indeed "unintentionally" misunderstood when you tell us what HH said that was so outrageously mis-understood. I was taught by them that the correct HH answer to give to the question, "Is there one main leader in Homestead Heritage?" is "We have a plurality of elders." This gives the impression that the answer to the question is no, when in fact the answer is yes. Blair Adams sits at the head of the hierarchy in HH and answers to no man, only God himself. The elders do not have anywhere near equal authority with Adams. The answer we were directed to give wasn't a "out-right lie," but it was intentionally vague and very misleading so a lie no less. If this is the kind of answer they gave CC then I believe CC did NOT "MIS-understand." This is why the Bible says let your yes-es be yes and your no-s be no. I will try to get a hold of Cindy Culp for an exact quote myself. Until then I am sorry and I apologize to both you and HH. I will also graciously accept any temporary apology you may offer for your assumption that they did not lie or mislead Cindy Culp, (I noticed you used the word "perhaps",) until you have had a chance to do more than assume "perhaps-es" yourself. We both have had differing experiences with the leadership in HH and have made assumptions based on our own experiences. Am I also wrong to assume we finally agree on one thing? That is that HH does have a hierarchy and Blair Adams as the Apostle is at the top and that the statement, (no mater who is at fault,) that; The group is led by a contingent of 20 men called ministers who are similar to what other churches call elders. Although the group was founded by Blair Adams, he has no more authority than the other ministers, they say. is at least not true.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:18 pm:        It won’t let me edit it, but I meant to say: I will also graciously accept any temporary apology you may offer for correcting me based on your own assumption that they did not make that statement, (I noticed you used the word "perhaps",) until you have had a chance to do more than assume "perhaps-es" yourself.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:32 pm:        'Foreverhis' do you have any other basis for twisting to saying that HH claims no aspect of hierarchal and functional authority exists beyond your taking a reporters statement and running with it improperly, extrapolating wildly ? Yes, sadly, my own seven years of experience in HH and the deception I saw. Also the copy of the book "answers to visitors’ questions," that I received from them in 1998. At that time they would not deny our claim that the answers were purposely misleading, they only offered excuses: one of them being that at one point David protected himself with a disguise.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.82.236 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:18 am:        We are accusers of the brethern...lol Truth seems to bother Prax...he who is not a member, will not be a member thinks he knows more than those who were life time members... He time after time accuses me of lying...He does not even know me...he has never visited my churches...his great knowledge comes from HH... I feel sorry for someone that would uphold a place where many lives have been destroyed, families relationships have been wrecked... What a twisted,warped spiritual world he must live in.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.243 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:01 am:        Hi Folks, Here is the crux of the matter. The quickness to accuse of 'lying'. At least 'foreverhis' in this situation (but not in the severe error above) realizes that jumping to conclusions of convenience to accuse is very questionable. (And I had no conversation with anybody about this, simply desire that folks try to speak with integrity.) 'foreverhis' I may have assumed too much in this particular case ... I will issue temporary apology ... exact quote ... Until then I am sorry and I apologize to both you and HH. Thanks. Nuff said. I jumped to no conclusion so there is no need to modify what I said above. Personally I believe that accusations of 'lying' or 'liar', the oppo modus operandi on this forum, are almost always dubious. Very rarely do I even apply that accusation to oppo distortions since folks have their own lenses and see the same events in different ways. Even worse is a situation like Mrs. Alvear. Even when the time is taken to carefully show that her accusation of 'liar' is simply false, as above, there is not even a single word of contrition, acknowledgment, retraction or apology. This type of hardened stance of accusation can only be a reflection of a very difficult bondage that makes it hard to relate to a situation earnestly and fairly. Much better would be simply to say .. "oops, apologies to the forum and HH, I made an error in that point, and was careless, please allow me to retract the 'liar' accusation, and I will be more careful with my words in the future" Shalom, Praxaluh   allforchrist New member Username: allforchrist Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 72.16.244.134 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 2:49 pm:        Robin/FH, I'm literally weeping. I don't speak out much but I just have to say ...Happy Birthday to your precious daughter. You will never know how meaningful this thread is to me. I have lived, and am too familiar with, the condemnation, lies and spiritual abuse of which you speak. Your posts (and others) are tools in the hands of God Almighty for my healing. Not a day goes by that I don't pray for our friends who are there. He alone is worthy.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 4:28 pm:        All for Christ, Thank for the good wishes and encouragement. Lord, May all who have been hurt by our common enemy, (which is not flesh and blood,) be healed by the love and grace of Jesus. Lord set us free from all deception and lies. Cause all that blinds ourselves and those we love from the truth, (whether within or without,) to fail. Help us to know your will, your love, your grace, and your mercy. Help us to extend them to others. Help us to walk in the Spirit. Lord preserve the lives and hearts of those who are down trodden and help them to know you have come to set them free from men's laws of sin and death in order to walk by faith and give them an abundant life in Christ Jesus. May all who are reading this and do not know you as their personal savior, turn their hearts towards you, believe, and repent, so they can know you as Lord and experience the joy of salvation. In Jesus Name allforchrist said, "He alone is worthy." So true!!!!   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.31.105 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:52 am:        I commend you for your fight for truth against many odds...and my friend truth will win in the end for Jesus not hh is all truth and no lies... Blessings to you from the far away mission field.   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:15 pm:        ...truth will win in the end for Jesus not hh is all truth and no lies... Yes, Jesus is all Truth. Yet, in this arena, HH hasn't lied at all. In fact, they have said nothing. Yet you write venomous words like the ones above. Shame on you. I cannot find the words to describe what a coward you are for writing the jibberish you do here. You know that HH will not respond to your hateful rhetoric here, so you plunge headlong into the mire that Watchman Fellowship has helped whip up for you, failing to realize that with every post and every accusation you are only incriminating yourself and sealing your own fate. The very pitchforks you are sharpening and the very torches you are lighting will one day turn against you, and what will you do then? The one thing you can't do is claim you weren't warned. DOwen   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:22 pm:        Just to be clear, I believe you to be a coward because you didn't have the courage to face HH, eye to eye, and tell them your problems. Instead of having the guts to do that, you chose to spew your venom in a place where HH does not participate. This is true cowardice.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.20.216 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:15 am:        I didn't have the courage? Were you in the meeting? How do you know what I said...you are so misinformed... HH does not participate? LOL...   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 6:20 am:        Personally I believe that accusations of 'lying' or 'liar', the oppo modus operandi on this forum, are almost always dubious. Very rarely do I even apply that accusation to oppo distortions since folks have their own lenses and see the same events in different ways. Now, prax, you know how human it is to credit someone with lying once you have caught them in it in the past. So I am human, and assumed the deceivers are lying in this particular case also. Tell me you don't do it; make asumtions... using your past experience with people to make judgments. By the way I haven't finished with my comments on the article. Poor Cindy Culp must have really had a hard time understanding Mr. Wheeler and the others, because a lot of what she said they said does not match up with what HH taught me while I was there. Thanks to you though I will check first to see if it is a direct quote, and make a note of it if it isn't... But experience with HH leads me to believe CC may have mis-understood what they were "saying," but I am willing to bet she "understood" and printed what they intended her too.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 6:38 am:        Thanks. Nuff said. I jumped to no conclusion so there is no need to modify what I said above. You still owe me an apology for calling the kettle black. You got on to me for something you can not be sure of yourself. You are assuming that CC misunderstood what HH said and that it is her fault. I was assuming that the error was the fault of HH. You are in self denial; you don't want to admit that HH is capable of intentionally leading CC to believe that Adams "has no more authority than the other ministers." I apologized and will give them the benefit of the doubt even though my experience with them, and especially my experience with their answers to the question of Adam's authority, does not warrant it. But your idealist image of them in your mind of them being incapable of being at fault for the deceptive statement in the article is telling enough. You jumped on me without even checking into it yourself. I could be right and you won't admit that. I admitted I could be wrong, but you can't do that. I took the statement at face value, used my past experiences with HH leadership, and made an assumption that could be wrong and jumped on HH. You are also making an assumption about the same statement, but denying its face value, and then jumping on me. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Only the kettle has the humility to apologize for jumping on some one based on an assumption and the pot doesn’t. FH   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 7:20 am:        The same thinking, not secrecy, guides distribution of literature, members say. While there aren’t documents nonmembers are forbidden to see, the group generally doesn’t load down visitors with a stack of books. Then The only times Homestead Heritage has refused to give or sell its literature to someone was when members concluded a person’s motive was to attack, not learn. Such people want to raid the literature, not read it, Wheeler says. OK. All you people who love homestead and would never attack it and would like to learn go to Homestead and ask for: Order of Perfection, books one and two and By What Authority That is just a start. If after those books, if you still love Homestead and want to learn more, I will give you names of more books to ask for. Good luck FH   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 7:54 am:        The only reason critics make claims of secrecy, Wheeler says, is to give credence to allegations that people would otherwise dismiss as ludicrous. The charge that Homestead Heritage leaders profess to be Christ in the flesh is a perfect example, he says. Anyone who honestly reads the group’s literature or listens in earnest at meetings could not possibly come away with that idea, he says. The group does teach that the spirit of Jesus is manifested within the body of Christ. But it doesn’t believe it is embodied only in a select group of people. Rather, Homestead Heritage teaches that every member receives a piece of it. That’s why living in community is so important, members say. Yes, but The group does teach that the spirit of Jesus is manifested within the body of Christ. And they teach that the complete authority of Jesus Christ is manifested in those in authority in the body, and it is to be trusted and submitted to as if it was Christ Himself, because it is. They also teach that the Word of Christ for the members continues to come through them. This is what we have been saying. This is what they have not denied. They just spun around it. As a member I blindly trusted without question and submitted to those in authority as if they were Jesus. This is what I was taught and witnessed others doing as well. To NOT trust them... to question their word... caused a guilt as deep as not trusting God would cause. It also was a cause for discipline. I was told more than once; that the fellowship and God were one in the same. Jesus in the flesh. Jesus "still" comes in the Flesh bringing His tangible authority. The emphasis was always in the manifestation of the authority of Jesus Christ and the total submission, including our thoughts, to that authority. To deny this was the spirit of the Anti-Christ. When I saw them being harsh task masters, I felt guilty for thinking God was a harsh task master. When I saw that authority be abusive, I felt guilty for thinking God was abusive. And I know now, (now that we are free to talk with each other about such feelings,) most of us delt with the same guilt until we saw the abuses piling up or they touched our own families. Then we opened our eyes and faced the truth: Men in HH had usurped the Lordship of God and what we were really guilty of was going along with it. FH   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 8:56 am:        Continued from above: Take this in context with the authority of Jesus Christ coming in tangible form in His Body: from the article: People who don’t continue walking in a relationship with God can jeopardize their salvation, they say. That doesn’t mean every time someone sins they’re in danger of going to hell. But it does mean people cannot continually commit unrepeated sin and enter heaven. “When we are walking by faith, everything is covered under the blood of Jesus,” Wheeler says. “We just don’t believe obedience to God is negated by some kind of cheap grace.” This just part of their Gospel. Obedience to God through His tangible authority in the body is necessary for salvation. The fellowship IS Jesus in the flesh and its authority is the authority of Jesus: continuded right relationship to the fellowship/Jesus in the flesh and its authority/the tangible authority of Jesus are nessissary for salvation. The fear of being cast out or being convinced to leave is wrapped up in separation from "Jesus in the flesh." You fear being dis-fellowshiped for disobedience. You fear talking to anyone or reading anything that might convince you to leave. Reading the factnet, anti-cult books, talking in depth to ex-members... even if you won't get caught, it is scary. They are tools of the enemy and the might influence you to leave "Jesus." You are taught that the enemy’s greatest weapon is to doubt the authority of God that he put in your life through them. Even doubts are scary. Doubts are not thought through, they are just cast aside through obedience and fear of damnation. Salvation is at stake. The consequences are eternal. Who needs a physical gun. Which is worse, the first death, or eternal death? Yes the members are sweet, honest, and humble, but also obedient in thought and deed. Their eternal life depends on it. Pray for them. Pray that they would have a freedom of mind and spirit to know Jesus as we know Him; Christ in us, the believer, led by the spirit and not the fear of men. FH   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 5:33 pm:        Hi Folks, 'foreverhis' "You still owe me an apology for calling the kettle black. You got on to me for something you can not be sure of yourself. You are assuming that CC misunderstood what HH said and that it is her fault. I was assuming that the error was the fault of HH." Now, let us try to get one thing very clear. An accusation of being a 'liar' is not an evenhanded accusation .. 'well we don't know so yes and no are the same.' The burden of proof is .. heavily .. upon those making the accusation. And without real solid and definitive proof it is better to write and speak in an honourable manner, which you did not do and you still do not do. You are looking to switch gears right and left, to deflect, instead of just speaking properly. You made the accusation without warrant, you simply took an article statement, sans full context and sans quotation, and made it into a supposed lie by .. somebody. You have even acknowledged that this was improper. And I have assumed nothing. Perhaps the context is being missed some, which is exactly what I pointed out. To point out that concern is not an 'assumption' it is simply the proper way to handle an integrity matter. You do not know enough to accuse at all. So the proper path is to retract the accusation, research if you desire, and move on. The proper course. Actually imho it is better to not give an apology than to offer one that is veiled with deflections and confusions, which is your trickery. The 'lying' accusation from you was similar to the false, tawdry, dishonest 'liar' accusation of Mrs. Alvear above (about Sunday meetings). Which was refuted by simply showing the actual quotes. The fact that you don't understand truth and responsibility in integrity accusations is not surprising 'foreverhis'. We know that you have twisted on the forum on deep issues, speaking out of lack of knowledge, no integrity at all, to add to your attempts to smear. With your track record on vital issues nothing at all can be taken at face. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 5:50 pm:        Yes the members are sweet, honest, and humble, but also obedient in thought and deed. Amen. Exactly as the Bible says to be ! Halleluyah. I would simply make a small conjunction change. "the members are sweet, honest, and humble, and also obedient in thought and deed." Or, more simply. "the members are sweet, honest, and humble, obedient in thought and deed." Just like the Bible says. Shalom, Praxlaluh   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 7:11 pm:        "the members are sweet, honest, and humble, and also obedient in thought and deed." Add, "to the leader and their many Temple Patterns" at the end. It is better to obey God that men, but those men had become my conscience to the point that I dismissed the small quiet voice of the Holy Spirit when it disagreed with those men. I am ashamed of some of the things I had done in obedience to those men. I have repented for many, many things. God is still brings additional things to my mind that I would never have done if I wasn't in a cult blindly following it's leaders and rules. Each time I have to repent. I am so thankful for His mercy. I only wish I could restore time or make retribution to family and friends I sinned against while in obedience to HH. FH   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 7:14 pm:        It is better to obey God THAN men. The edit option isn't working.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.77 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:50 pm:        lots of cults members are sweet, honest and humble and it caused their death...   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:07 am:        Prax, If it takes out right lies to discredit us, they have done it. Just like they did about the Crows RE-baptizing. When the sisters in HH are having a home birth and the sisters are the midwives, they receive good quality prenatal care from those same midwifery sisters. The sister that is going to have the baby HAS to state that if things should come to a crisis in her home birth and she goes to the hospital she will tell the doctor, in order to protect the fellowship, she had NO prenatal care. This sister has been directed to lie! Under submission to "Jesus in the flesh" she will lie. This is just one example of their willingness to lie in order to protect the community. I asked them about this and they said it was ok if it protected the body, (just like they lied about the Arizona Fellowship being connected with the Texas one when KB killed her children.) They reminded me that David in the Bible disguised himself when men were after him in order to protect him. I was taught by them that the correct HH answer to give to the question, "Is there one main leader in Homestead Heritage?" is "We have a plurality of elders." This gives the impression that the answer to the question is no, when in fact the answer is yes. (Blair Adams sits at the head of the hierarchy in HH and answers to no man, only God himself.) The elders do not have anywhere near equal authority with Adams. The answer we were directed to give wasn't a "out-right lie," but it was intentionally vague and very misleading so a lie no less. You can check the 1997 book on Answers to Visitors Questions to see for yourself that this is the proper answer to give when some asks about it. So CC, who I talked to personally and I believe is a good journalist who took her time trying to be fair to both sides, asks that question and she writes what some HH leaders conveyed to her: Ex-members are making the sensational claim because one characteristic of a cult is having a charismatic leader or group of leaders, members say. But #1)the truth is Homestead Heritage does not fit that mold, they say. The group is led by a contingent of 20 men called ministers who are similar to what other churches call elders. Although the group was founded by Blair Adams, (2)he has no more authority than the other ministers, they say. Why in the world should I think that the men who believe lying is ok when it is done to protect the church did not lie AGAIN???   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:09 am:        continued: I love them. You love them. But they are what they are. If they did not lie they surely did not tell the truth: "Adams is our Apostle. He is our founder and leader. Their are 20 ministers who help him lead that are in submission to Adams' unquestionable apostolic authority." Perhaps CC misunderstood because she fell for their spin, so I apologized for saying they "lied." Maybe they are only guilty this time for giving one of their wordy misleading spin answers as in your "Perhaps..." example. (To me it is still a lie, because they did not answer the question with the plain truth, and I apologized because you may not see it that way. Even though there is still the chance that they did tell another out-right lie to protect them again.) But Prax, now it is you I am concerned about. Prax, you are living in a glass house that will crumble down around you, because if its integrity fails in this one area that is serious. If they lie about this they could be lying to you. It hurts to admit it when you have put so much faith and hope in these men and their "Garden of God." The articles are all full of HH spins, (which even complete strangers are telling us they saw through,)and if understood or quoted right, also out right lies. If they can get by with "just not telling all the truth," like they did with their gospel point, then they will do that. If it takes spin like they did on other points they have done it. If it takes an out right lie to protect the body, especially its Apostle, they have done it before. Is this ok with you? Does the example of David disguising himself to protect his life excuse deception used to protect the body? If yes, where do you draw the line? I wonder: Does the living God, who IS truth and who is all powerful, need or even approve of this kind of protection for His Body? I ask you again, do you approve? Sincerely, FH   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.71 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:14 pm:        Many things I know for truth but one thing HW told me on the plane going to the Philippine Islands that the Crow family re-baptized. I personally ask him and we talked a long time about this. I wanted to hear it from HW of course by that time I had caught HH in several lies... Why do you think Real Truth quit writing here? One of the facts was that he too was lied too about the Crow family. When a religion has to lie to try to save face then something is wrong...Why lie? Lots of people come and go in churches...No need in trying to destroy someone because they changed churches which HW did try to do. Why lie?   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.71 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:20 pm:        and neither do I believe the other things he told about the Crow family...   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 11:43 pm:        'Forever_His' Reading you above .. you sound just like the skeptics that are always fighting the Bible. "Well if we just find one error in the Bible ... look at this, oh maybe this, look here..." You carry with you and nurture the same attitude of skepticism and spirit of unbelief. Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 7:39 am:        Thank you Prax for a perfect example of how Homestead Heritage leaders answer. I pointed out a problem, and because I did, I am the problem. So was that a yes, or a no, or a maybe? I ask you again, do you approve? By the way, I believe the Bible to be without error. My attitude of "skepticism and spirit of unbelief" is not towards the Bible, but towards the interpretation Homestead Heritage gives it. Their rule is that members accept it, but I am no longer a member. Constitution on membership: Allow me to quote from the last page, “You acknowledge by signing this Constitution that you hold to the Holy Bible as interpreted by the Spirit moving through the appropriate channels of leadership as your ‘curriculum,’ your course of faith, supplemented and more precisely defined and expounded by the interpretation given by the Spirit and recorded in Salvation Is of the Jews; Hallelu Yah; The Garden of God; Covenant Love; The Temple; The Bedrock; The laws of Consistency; The Foundations of the Temple Series, Volumes 1, 2 and 3; The Order of Perfection; The Service of the Temple; The Narrow Gate; Koinonia Covenant Confession; Who Owns the Children?; Wisdom’s Children; Building Christian Character; Beyond Violence; Beyond Pacifism; Culture as Spiritual War Series; Knowledge as Spiritual War Series; Justice Is Fallen; the Koinonia Curriculum and others that might be added in the future through the appropriate channels of leadership per the above, including various specific position and conviction papers, such as those on home birth and home education.” It is not the Bible that is their authority, it is what the leaders say the Bible says as “more precisely defined and expounded by” their interpretation as set forth in their literature. Prax, even though Homestead Heritage claims it, doubting them is not equivalent to doubting the Bible or God. I am sorry you equate the two. God does not lie. Do you believe He approves of their uses of deceptions and lies to protect his body? FH   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.248 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 8:45 am:        Next thing we hear they have found more light under some stone somewhere and maybe the angel will give them special reading glasses...lol Of all the books that are written to change God's word not one will do it! His word is forever settled in heaven. Try reading the Bible without HH's books and all of us will find Jesus as He really is. I was told I would have to have their books to fully understand the Bible and God's purpose. By the way the JW's told me that too. The mormons told me and not only told me but gave me their writings to help me understand such "an Old Book"... Prax cannot understand the damage he is doing and that is sad.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 7:54 am:        'Foreverhis', I expected you to try to misunderstand and twist what I shared above, and you came through as expected. Your attitude above towards the HH ministry is just like the skeptics toward the Bible. You are looking for the wedge .. "this time" "this one area" The skeptic plays the same game. If there is a perceived contradiction or problem or inaccuracy here, then how can you defend the Bible as God's word. Now of course there is a valid distinction. In the full picture the Bible is directly His words to man on paper. While the ministry does not claim perfection, simply that they are earnestly seeking to stand in the place where God places ministry and authority and fellowship in the Bible. They are seeking to follow the patterns given in the Bible. So you go here and there .. look at this event, this quote. Maybe you can find a statement or action that another will agree is imperfect or incorrect from the HH ministry .. that will be your 'ahha '. And I would be very surprised if you were unable to do so. It is your attitude and spirt that I am noting. And I know from experience that you are one of the greatest deceivers to the forum im sharing about the HH ministry. That others will agree could have been spoken differently. Yet you yourself will deceive on the most vital matters regarding HH, speaking very falsely about matters of which you have no real information. And then leave your own deception and confusion and vitriol in the minds of others. Thus your words are filtered with your own poison and I take them as having virtually no weight or substance whatsoever. From that experience with you I know that none of your words can be trusted at face. Shalom, Praxaluh   wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 2:44 pm:        Just a quick note and back to work. So, Praxaluh, are you saying that you need not address the actual question posed because the permise behind the question is in error? In other words, ForeverHis's description of the sisters' response to prenatal care is inaccurate.   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 9:20 am:        I will not defend myself to you. You have never met me. I answer to God, and my conscience is clear. I Believe I made my point and that you helped me do it. Thank you. Next: There is Biblical provision for relationships of leadership, authority, and submission in the body. But… that leadership, authority, and submission is not the same as the leadership, authority, and submission due to God. Homestead Heritage has interwoven, (proof texted,) scriptures and taught that the leaders in Homestead Heritage are to receive the same honor, blind trust, and submission that is due God. It has taken volumes of their literature to interweave these scriptures. They have cleverly redefined words. When they tried to put it in 40 pages, the errors of what they believe were too obvious for anyone who had not been first slowly indoctrinated through the many volumes of their teachings. So they had to stop using it, (their “constitution.”) They have had to piece verses together and add to the scriptures with their many volumes, because what they believe is not in the Bible. So members need to agree that Homestead Heritage literature is the Holy Spirits more precisely interpretation of God’s word than what a member would get from the Bible if he read it himself. The member has to lay aside the Christian’s God given ability to read the Bible with help from the indwelling and moving of the Holy Spirit, they have to lay aside that small still voice of the Holy Spirit that speaks to their conscience whenever it disagrees with what the leaders say God told them. 1. When I read my Bible I see it says to test our teachers and prophets. 2. I see certain qualifications that are supposed to be met by those we allow to teach us and those we follow. 3. I see warning signs that we are supposed to look for. 4. So…We are NOT supposed to BLINDLY follow men. There is an important place for our critical thinking skills and the Holy Spirits direct leading. 5. Homestead Heritage has undermined these with their teachings. There is good and Biblical reason to question those in authority and the doctrines we have been taught. Homestead Heritage and you can label it with negative words like “an attitude of skepticism and spirit of unbelief,” and some people will fall for that intimidation and made to feel guilty tactic. It worked on me while I was in Homestead Heritage. That is past tense. You are wasting your time. If you are in Homestead you are most likely not reading here unless you were “appointed” to by the leadership. (I have even received e-mails from a few visitors who were reading this forum secretly because of the fear of leadership.) But maybe a concerned relative has printed things like this thread on the article for you to read and discuss with them. Maybe you have been brave enough to log on to fact net yourself. To you I say, please, be brave. Use the brain, heart, and Holy Spirit leading that God has given you and examine the scriptures for yourself. Do not believe me, do not believe anyone blindly. Test what you have been taught. Seek the truth. Truth will stand up to scrutiny no matter what they choose to call scrutiny. If they are telling you the truth, they have nothing to fear by it.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 1:24 pm:        'foreverhis' I will not defend myself to you. The problem is, 'foreverhis', what you did above was unconscionable ... before God. And I wrote to you privately (hoping that you would take a proper step) and you confirmed that you were speaking in ignorance. Yet you remain quiet. Your hardness in accusation has painted you into a terrible corner of wickedness. So there is no way to address your soapbox attempts, with a front that you really want discussion, while you are trapped in that bondage. In Jesus name, Praxaluh   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 9:14 am:        Prax, In repsonse to your post I put it under the thread dealing with the topic you are talking about. http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=417366#POST417366   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 10:30 am:        Midwives must be licensed by the State of Texas (including out at HH) http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/midwife/mw_law.doc SUBCHAPTER F. LICENSURE REQUIREMENTS Sec. 203.251. LICENSE REQUIRED. (a) A person may not practice midwifery unless the person holds a license issued under this chapter. (b) The department shall provide a license to each person who fulfills the licensing requirements. Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 388, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; amended 2005. Sec. 203.252. QUALIFICATIONS FOR INITIAL LICENSE. (a) A person qualifies to become a licensed midwife under this chapter if the person provides the program coordinator with documentary evidence that the person has: (1) satisfied each requirement for basic midwifery education; and (2) passed the comprehensive midwifery examination and jurisprudence examination required by this chapter. (b) The initial license must be issued before the midwife begins to practice midwifery and may be issued at any time during the year.   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 192.138.54.196 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 10:35 am:        Midwives must be licensed by the State of Texas (including out at HH) http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/midwife/mw_law.doc SUBCHAPTER F. LICENSURE REQUIREMENTS Sec. 203.251. LICENSE REQUIRED. (a) A person may not practice midwifery unless the person holds a license issued under this chapter. (b) The department shall provide a license to each person who fulfills the licensing requirements. Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 388, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; amended 2005. Sec. 203.252. QUALIFICATIONS FOR INITIAL LICENSE. (a) A person qualifies to become a licensed midwife under this chapter if the person provides the program coordinator with documentary evidence that the person has: (1) satisfied each requirement for basic midwifery education; and (2) passed the comprehensive midwifery examination and jurisprudence examination required by this chapter. (b) The initial license must be issued before the midwife begins to practice midwifery and may be issued at any time during the year.   abh New member Username: abh Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.71 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 8:11 pm:        there is no law against helping someone give birth as a friend   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 8:46 pm:        Hi Folks, The issue of what legitimate authority the state has (or does not have) to license the Biblical activities of believers ministering to one another as the Bible directs is a very deep one. In some places throughout the world (even in the 'civilized, Christian' countries) the state has taken criminal action even against parents homeschooling their children. And I honor those parents who have stood up, sometimes at great cost, to teach their children properly. Please keep that in mind in discussing such issues, there is a deep responsibility to have the mind and heart of God. If you yourself embrace all our current statist institutions and structures .. then they will give you their rewards. Please understand .. some have sought a better way. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Junior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.76.49 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:11 pm:        a better way?   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:45 pm:        Wrong. Anyone calling themselves a midwife without a state license to practice is in violation of state law. There is a good reason- you don't know what you are doing unless you have the education.   missionary_lady Junior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.114.124 Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 9:53 am:        HH thinks they are above the law.   usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.56.23 Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 10:43 am:        Actually, there isn't anything wrong with a friend helping another friend during birth. And, there's nothing wrong with deciding you don't want a licensed midwife or doctor. I think the original poster was talking about the 'requirements' one had to meet, the questions, the tests, the lies she'd have to tell if something went wrong, etc. I don't believe she was fussing that they weren't licensed. It would make good sense to me for the ladies to go ahead and take the classes and become licensed. Besides from learning a few things they would have the experience and credibility if they ever needed it outside of the church.   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 10:49 am:        State laws vary. Some allow classes to lay people, but others are going to require a master's degree. It really does take that much training to really be good at it. My uncle, now deceased was mentally retarded. He was born on the farm with the cord around his neck.   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 12:19 pm:        HH thinks they are above the law. (ML) Whatever Mrs. Alvear. You and I both know the truth so please lay aside your obnoxiousness. You are better than that. The ladies that help with birthing at HH are highly trained and have a great amount of experience in their field. I do not know the stats off hand, but I believe that in the last ten years or so, HH sisters have delivered more babies without complications than our local hospital has. Where a husband and wife choose to have their child is their business, and their business alone. I find it idiotic beyond belief what ForeverHis and Maja are doing here. Who do they think they are to tell anyone else what is right or wrong for them to do? It is nothing more than arrogance, paired with loud mouths, and a platform to spew it from. How pathetic.   foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 1:39 pm:        DOWEN said:Where a husband and wife choose to have their child is their business, and their business alone. I find it idiotic beyond belief what ForeverHis and Maja are doing here. DOwen, I NEVER came against their right to homebirth. Do NOT include me in that fold. This is what I said above: When the sisters in HH are having a home birth and the sisters are the midwives, they receive good quality prenatal care from those same midwifery sisters. The sister that is going to have the baby HAS to state that if things should come to a crisis in her home birth and she goes to the hospital she will tell the doctor, in order to protect the fellowship, she had NO prenatal care. This sister has been directed to lie! Under submission to "Jesus in the flesh" she will lie. That is only one of the lies. It is the lying I have a problem with. The article was full of their lies and deception and they see nothing wrong with it when it is used to protect themselves. I used the "no prenatal care" example because a lot of Homestead Heritage members are familiar with it and that example can not be refuted. FH   foreverhis Junior Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 1:25 am:        Back to the thread topic: Waco Trib Articles part 3 Another charge leveled at the group to make it appear cultic, members say, is that leaders exercise authoritarian control. Exes talk of people being disciplined for eating chocolate, wearing cowboy boots or rolling up shirt sleeves. “That’s all just a lie,” Wheeler says. “That never happened.” It’s true that violations of the group’s patterns can result in discipline, members say. But the specific violation is not the issue. It’s the person’s attitude. “They are breaking the vow they made to God to put the unity of the body over our individual desires,” Wheeler says. Wait a minute, Wheeler just said, "“That’s all just a lie,” “That never happened.” Then they say, "It’s true that violations of the group’s patterns can result in discipline," The spin: "But the specific violation is not the issue. It’s the person’s attitude." Duh??? I was told it was an attitude of rebellion. It hurts the unity of the body? Baloney. What body are we talking about here? The Body of Christ or the body of Blair Adams? God help a man who requires the children of God to make vows unto death that would include such foolishness. We are not to allow such bondage. (Galatians and Colossians) The unity of the Body of Christ is through the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer changing each man's heart and through love. Not through submission to petty rules of men who have the appearance of godliness, but deny the power of God to bring unity without petty patterns/rules. "Another charge leveled at the group to make it appear cultic, members say, is that leaders exercise authoritarian control." They decide what you can eat, what you can wear, who and if you marry, how and when you "volunteer" [sic], etc... They even have temple patterns on how to clean your chicken coop. Oh, but they do not exercise authoritarian control. He might as well said, "This is the great and mighty Oz speaking, please ignore the man behind the curtain." They discipline for supposed attitudes that would lead to "violations of the group’s patterns." We said the patterns are rules, they say no we are lying, they they are just patterns. Duh??? break a pattern or break a rule...if it results in discipline what is the difference? "Patterns" sound less authoritarian than "rules." It is a word game. Can anyone say, "Double Speak?"   majajh Member Username: majajh Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:05 pm:        They push authority, unless it is the United States or Texas governments. I saw no flags out there. Prax is mad because the state might see what's going on. "Submit to the governing authorities." "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's." The plain Bible is not believed, just prophecies and church interpretation of Biblical passages. Sure sounds like a sort of pope.   missionary_lady Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:58 am:        Yeah, the asked my husband not to wear certain name brand shirt...lol..it was given to him and the person had bought the shirt at the Goodwill...   praxaluh Junior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:46 am:        Hi Folks, Many Christians make it a point not to wear labels that have questionable associations, e.g. with homosexuality or debauchery, as in some of the 'fashion houses'. And many today will have nothing to do with Disney products, even though that was for many years viewed as the most wholesome entertainment. Not today. And if I see a shirt or carry-bag at a garage sale with a private label I think about who the label is. A nice bag with Winston cigarettes or a liquor company .. well I wonder if the label can come off cleanly. I realize that the company gets no money if I buy the garage sale item but a negative tag is best passed by or removed. I'm sure your husband's shirt was quite nice and that no offense at all was meant when he received it and wore it but surely you can understand that a community has a concern about what names are being seen and promoted/advertised. Yes a minor issue, but as a minor issue it is actually, perhaps, a better, simpler example of legitimate distinctions of conscience and proper ministry. Many other 'bigger' discussions get smogged in rhetoric and remembrances of convenience and selective exposition. Shalom, Praxaluh   praxaluh Junior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:59 am:        majajd "Prax is mad because the state might see what's going on." Wow. I didn't know I was "mad" about anything. This on top of another poster telling me my future. I did point out the two-faced nature of the oppo movement. One face says .. "Oh, we are really friendly and just love the folks and share to hope to see some changes in the future." However the true face is often exposed. Warfare, fight the Christian community. Use any means possible. Distort and falsely accuse. Accuse of being a cult or doctrines of demons. And try to fight the beautiful daily actions of Christian conscience and service by looking to ally with anti-Christian secularist forces in any way possible. Thus a few of you do the real dirty work while the others says: "Oh, no I really like Christian community and homeschooling and and homebirth, they are beautiful Biblical patterns." This is an unholy alliance and should never be. Choose you this day.. Shalom, Praxaluh   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.206.99.20 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:10 am:        On time I they had me sit on a foot stool in the middle of the room while they walked around me and told me how sinful I was because I said God keeps His promises. They said He doesn’t have to keep promises to me because He didn't keep His promise to Jesus. They said, "The Bible says if you honor your mother and father you shall live long on the earth and Jesus honored His mother and father more than anyone, and He died in his thirties." They told me I was full of pride because I said God would keep his promises to me, and I must think I am better than Jesus. Read this prior post Prax and tell me you and your beloved institution are not more full of crap than a goose?   missionary_lady Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 3:24 pm:        I have always tried to live my life being as kind as possible to all regardless of the church or belief. Some do actually believe in 3 different Gods and others believe like we do... We may love the people there and we do but they are following gross error that is dividing families. They are more than in some false doctrine they are in bondage and brainwashed. They have no freedom whatsoever. Jesus did not intend for anyone to live scared like they do. Prax no use in you saying they do not live scared. When adults tell you, “don´t tell this or that so and so and so for it will get us in trouble." Something is wrong...horribly wrong.   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.211.204.143 Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 12:03 am:        Funny how ol' Prax hasn't bothered to address this one, huh? Well, the happy cultists can't be bothered with all these lies, now can they? It gets in the way of gate-guard time and mowing the lawn with the reel mower.   praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 7:44 pm:        Hi Majajh, I've made it a point not to address much when people say "they did this and that to me, it was so unfair" with only a couple of exceptions. One-sided reports from those with dubious agendas are especially suspicious. We have seen so much distortion and exaggeration and selectivity of convenience and lack of context and terrible untruths and false accusation from the oppos. Generally I don't call these reports lies, since they probably line up pretty close to the oppo's remembrance. The remembrance's themselves however are very one-sided, meant to justify oneself in the Watchman "I'm ok, you're ok, only HH is not ok" mode. And we surely know your view, Majajh, is that you are in warfare and you will surely shade and tint everything you say for your political battles against the heavenlies. Now sometimes I consider the details of what an oppo shares and think about it and believe I get at least a partial picture of what actually occurred, however I leave it at that. Its my own consideration. Overall I am aware enough of the oppo tricks that I think I can get at least a reasonable picture. (Partly because for a season I was tempted to go in the same self-centered direction of railing accusation, and I shudder at the spiritual impoverishment of that road.) Shalom, Praxaluh   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 63.226.106.50 Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 11:21 pm:        Yeah, Paul resorted to spiritual trickery and battles against heaven too when he used the Bible, and reason based upon the Bible, didn't he? Think about it- Paul dissed the Pharisees. What happened then? They wanted to squelch him or kill him. What happened after the Scripture record leaves off? It doesn't say, but I guaran-darn-tee you they hated his guts, and talked about that upstart and heretic, the Apostle Paul for a long, long time afterward. So go ahead and try to discredit me while you play the coward and not be willing to answer the Bible and say what Homestead Heritage believes. Too hard to defend, isn't it?   praxaluh Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 4:16 am:        majajh, you do the discrediting yourself. All you bring to the table here is arrogance and bluster. Please, try to deal with the core situation first. Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 9:40 am:        Majajh, I don't see it as Prax and DOwens way. I see a man who loves God and love the Word of God. I see a man who fears God, but is fearless of men, a man who is willing to call as he sees it. Somebody has got to willing to stand for what they believe. Your strong bold stand is different than my softer and more tactful one, but hey they don’t like it either way. They call YOU arrogant? Man, are they ever looking in the wrong place. Majajh, Demand hundreds of people agree to your interpretation of the Bible and your writings as the word of God and the course for their faith... (before they even know what they will all be,) demand that they don't wear prints that you don't like, or eat foods that you don't agree with... walk out on meetings because we don't show you the honor you think you deserve and say "Unless you can say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord you will not see my face again"... don’t forget to claim to have the very same authority and judgment as Jesus. They can defend a man like that, but when you come on here and ask questions they refuse to answer and you point it out to them, you are arrogant. Go figure... FH They call YOU arrogant. Man, are they ever looking in the wrong place. Major, demand hundreds of people agree to your interpretation of the Bible and your writings as the word of God and the course for their faith... demand that they don't wear prints that you don't like, or eat foods that you don't agree with... walk out on meetings because we don't show you the honor you think you deserve and say "Unless you can say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord you will not see my face again"... claim to have the very same authority and judgment as Jesus. They can defend a man like that, but when you come on here and ask questions they refuse to answer and you point it out to them you are arrogant. Go figure... FH   missionary_lady Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 3:22 pm:        Whoever disagrees with HH is arrogant... Poor Prax...   missionary_lady Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 3:24 pm:        Whoever disagrees with HH is arrogant... Poor Prax...   majajh New member Username: majajh Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.216.238.200 Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 9:56 am:        The devotees of the golden calf are pretty devoted, aren't they? I guess Dowen and Prax want me to have tea and crumpets with them, rather than recognize this is a war, just not with IEDs and RPGs. You talk little about the Bible and Jesus, and you both certainly avoid the Bible when it comes to salvation. You are enemies of the Gospel. Go ahead- join the cult you so strongly defend. Is it just a little bit odd that it is located in the same area as Koresh's bunch? Now that's a demonic issue.

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