| Author | Message | ||
     40days40years Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 73 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.69.245 |
I am not kidding I thought about this when I was talking to a poster here. Are the leaders of EN selfish? do they use others of lesser means for their own profit? This may be a major stronghold over this ministry. | ||
| 40days40years Junior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.190.210.52 |
Damn right it does. | ||
| dust Intermediate Member Username: dust Post Number: 194 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.52.214.120 |
Well, 40, maybe we all have a spirit of selfishness, that we take captive through renewing our mind to Christ. But, you raise a good question. What is the driving force behind ministry. Especially TODAY verses 50 years ago, 100 years ago, how about 500 years ago? TODAY "ministry" is on the free market, supported through consumerism (tapes, DVD's, books, conferences, seminars, and yes, even FEES to learn how to pray), and I'm only going to talk about the more respectable sales (not holy water, holy rags, holy ink, etc. ). Okay I made the ink thing up, but someone is probably sellng that too. It's not so much a calling from God as a "career decision." And, in many circles, it pays very well...especially if you are eloquent, good looking and have cool hair, or some sort of "entertainment" attractiveness. It doesn't as much matter what your fruit or character is, as much as your GIFTING. AND, AND, AND, what you can promise to people that their flesh craves. I don't want to SOUND negative. I love God. I love God's people. And, to those who are truly serving GOD, by loving his sheep, this is not about you. YOU are to be commended..you are swimming upstream most of the time, competing with the JAZZY SET or perhaps just the misguided. We receive numerous letters to give support from people we really like. Some want to be supported while they pray. I question this because we should ALL be praying, and I think you can pray and work at the same time. How many millions of dollars or is it billions of dollars are supporting ministers in ministries that move around the world to PUMP PEOPLE UP, but not truly minister to the soul. How much of the Christian dollar is going to actually feed orphans, widows, poor, or even just help out a little bit where needed in the local church. Maybe make this world a little bit better. How much of the Christian dollar is helping the soldier's family? Or sex trafficking. And, it's not all about money...it's also TIME. How much of the Christian "TIME" is spent being the hands and feet of Jesus...showing faith by offering crystal clear water to someone. I think our water is murky!!! And, how funny is it, that in today's world, if a Christian can open his mouth with a few clever words, he thinks this qualifies him for ministry, but walk around a hospital and see how many pastors, ministers, etc. you can find, who maybe decides to spend a few hours with the family in the waiting room. He can't do it, because he might have a plane to catch to his next appearance, or a book signing. Please forgive the sound of bitterness here. I try hard not to go there, and I really want to make a point that even myself can take a look in the mirror to question my motivation, or how I personally spend my own time. So, really this is for all of us, on some level, but mostly for the celebrity/pastor. If you are a pastor, how many hospitals have you visited this year? How many homes have you been to just simply visit with no other motive than to love on the family? How much money collected in support did you use above and beyond comfortable? How much time did you spend with your leader versus a family that needed you? How much time did you spend PASTORING, versus writing sermons, conference speeches and seminars? Do the people you deliver these paid speeches to really truly need them as much as they need fellowship, love, a personal visit? | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
Dust, I know exactly how you feel. The church has become like the world living for itself. I remember when I left christianity for a short time because I didn't want to be a christian because the ones today only care about themselves. They are sheperds who feed themselves and don't care about anyone else. However, the bible teaches that in the last days men will be lovers of themselves, ect having a form of godliness but denying its power, from such turn away from. I was just in the chapel praying and thinking about what you had posted and then I read your post and thought what we need to pray for is a first century church revolution where they meet in homes. It's more authentic, it allows people to spend just as enough time with helping others discover thier gifts, and its just overall more real! I am praying about acquiring a Master's degree in Economics because I want churches like EN to be held accountable and others who are in it for the money. However, if I did end up working for the IRS or making policy and possibly ending tax exempt status for churches,unfortunately many followers of these leaders who love money would be deceived into just giving these leaders more.God's people perish for a lack of knowledge. It's entrapment because God does bless those who give but we shouldn't give to get more. That's why I don't believe in tithing but even if one does, you are not supposed to tithe just to get god's blessing because it never takes the focus off yourself. How is that christian if you are always focusing on yourself. We need a revolution of what Wathcman Nee did which was building up first century churhces where they met in homes. I have been to one before and its so more intimate and authentic. Read Watchman Nee's The Normal Christian Church Life. Remarkable book about leaders and how they are to be gifts to the body of christ! I remember reading his books when God allowed me to leave EN and its so sad but funny because everything taught by EN was just the opposite in Nee's books and it was so life changing and I remember thinking this is what I was after and that EN really needs to read this book about the Normal Christian Church Life because it has a chapter on finances and the elders. Phenominal book read it it's refreshing adn will remove despair! God Bless you | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 101 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
the_west_here_i_come, I would not follow Watchman Nee, example as some of his teachings are one of the roots to the modern abusive shepherding movement. Please look at the following websites. I believe that churches could meet in houses like in the New Testament but even a house church could easily become a cult if they allow the false doctrine of spiritual covering. We need to go to Christ directly and not by proxi ie through leaders. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and us. Leaders are not mediators. http://www.piney.com/Shepherding.html Quoted from the above website,""A third root of the authoritarian approach to discipling can be found in the writings and influence of Watchman Nee. He is the favorite theologian of many modern charismatics. "Nee taught that each person must have a "covering" in the Lord. He used that term for a person who has delegated authority, who must be obeyed unconditionally, and who must be imitated. He also taught that Christians must confess their sins to the person who is their "covering." Jerram Barrs explained that the doctrine of "covering" means that ideas, decisions, and lifestyle must be covered by someone higher in the chain of command; thus the "covering" gives instructions on many secular matters and not just on matters of faith. " http://www.watchman.org/cults/onemasterchrist.htm Quoted from the above website,"abusive, controlling authority in the Discipleship, Shepherding groups. This false teaching came into American churches through Watchman Nee and his book Spiritual Authority. Nee says on page 71, "If God dares to entrust His authority to man, then we can dare to obey. Whether the one in authority is right or wrong does not concern us. The obedient one needs only to obey. The Lord will not hold us responsible for any mistaken obedience, rather He will hold the delegated authority responsible for his erroneous act." In addition, he states, "We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us" (page 23). So, What's Wrong With That? Watchman Nee learned this concept of delegated authority from the ethics of Confucianism. Confucius taught that parents should always be obeyed, that they were never wrong, but if they were they should still be obeyed. Among Confucianists loyalty is one of the greatest virtues and can lead to the blind loyalty described in Nee's statement. To bring this concept into Christianity antagonizes one of the most fundamental principles of New Testament Christianity, the Priesthood of all believers. When the veil of the Temple was torn in half God was signifying that we all now have equal access to Him. There is no person who has spiritual authority (power) over us. We are all siblings in Christ and there is no chain of command among siblings. Authority in the New Testament is of a completely different order. In some settings in our life we experience the kind of leadership that has the power of command. Our jobs are many times an example. But in the church a very different kind of leadership is needed. The Church is a voluntary association of free people who accept the authority of God but recognize the equality of every believer. " Look also at these websites, http://www.spiritualabuse.org/experiences/other/judson_s.html http://www.somis.org/TDD-08.html | ||
| zadieboy Member Username: zadieboy Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 74.134.216.5 |
 Uh, does Every Nation have a spirit?........ | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
In defense of Watchman Nee he layed down his life not only for christ but for the sheep. There is a big difference than comparing them to EN leaders who are sheperds who feed themselves. Secondly, in response to a first century church, I have news for you any church can become a cult because the Bible teaches us that the outline for a church requires leadership.So therfore, leaders may either be completely holy or unholy regarless of what type of chruch it is. Rather it be like En or simple first century church. So what are you supposed to do never be a part of a church since leadership is a necessity? I understand that many are afraid of leadership but its a necessity because its part of the real structure of the church. It's biblical. That's why we will know them by thier fruits! First century churches are more authentic because it implies that everyone there is equal because its more intimate. If you don't believe that then that's your perogative but my point is is that I have found comfort in churches like this and we need a movement of them. It will remove the veil of a church being seen as an institution because first century churches are more intimate and just more real. | ||
| robert_unknown Intermediate Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 259 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
yes, but the bible clearly tells us that a leader is a SERVANT first, and anything else second. as soon as leadership forgets servanthood (and starts ie concentrating on business methods or unethical behaviour for gaining influence) they are already off track and - according to the bible - no real elders anylonger. a person who is greedy or violent (and manipulation and abuse is a form of violence against others) or sexual out of order is NOT qualified for elder-/ leadership in church. Brooks, Nasso, P.Daniels and others in EN calling themselves elders and even "apostles" are making a JOKE out of the bible and what the bible says about leadership! in fact such people are no leaders at all, and in a normal and healthy (church) environement they will not be recognized for what they want to be. therefore people like them are forced to create their OWN environement based on their OWN ideas and rules, and therefore they start their own movement which recognizes them as what they want to be. because they are not qualified for eldership they need mystical manipulation to decive people into the believe that they are something special. Therefore they use strange teachings like the NOLR and NAR provides. Therefore they have their personal "prophet" who confirms their "speciall calling" (which in fact is NOT from God but from their own heartsd). Therefore they invent mystical stories like the "miracle of Manila" and other mystical things to support their idea from a spiritual (in fact superstitional) point of view (take this things away and they are nothing, because leadership in Gods and biblical terms is based on CHARAKTER and nothing else!). in fact what they do is rebellion against God BIG TIME. Its rebellion against Gods word and the church in general (this kind of people often look down on other churches - the NAR affiliated ministers and churches are usually very honest by saying that they make a "new kind of" or a "new paradigm church" with "new paradigms and rules"). in fact these men created environements, where people who dont be qualified for elder/leadership are sects/ cults RIGHT from the beginning. EN is NOT a church! it never was a church! it is a man made idea that takes over churches, that tries to create churches, but as long as the basis is rebellion and human ambition and as long as it is led by people who are no biblical leaders (because their leadership is NOT based on character but on mysticism and on charisma and on an selfe made environement that suports them rather then biblical terms) EN is and will never be a real biblical church... so - yes i agree - every group can BECOME a cult. but in the case of EN i have big doubts that it ever started as church. EN did not become a cult, it started already very questionable. | ||
| robert_unknown Intermediate Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 260 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
this statement is falsely made... i was already further in my thoughts when i wrote it... it should mean this:
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| robert_unknown Intermediate Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 261 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
ther perversion is when this kind of people call other churchmembers, who do not recognize them in what they want to be "disobedient", "rebellios" or worse... think about it: people who live in rebellion against God (because they are, in their selfmade environement in leadership, despite the fact, that their character disqualifies them for leadership, which is no biblical) blame others who do not recognize this crappy idea rebellios.... i can only shake my head about such stupidity! | ||
| maranatha1984 Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 12.96.65.83 |
Is the Pope Catholic? Is Osama Muslim? Does a bear take a ...oh well you get the point... | ||
| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
I am talking about Watchman Nee a man who was martyred for christ. Betrayed by one of his own sheep. To even think about comparing him to EN is disgusting and it shows me you can't read. This man gave his life for christ and churches are still going strong today and yet he has been dead for about 30+ years. He was under totalitarianism so his perception of people being in rebeliiion may be more legit because its not like he was making money off his own sheep. I do agree with you robert that we need to be careful when leaders try to make merchandise of us by providing delusional things like we need to obey our leaders but regardless of Watchman Nee's position on authority rather it be in error he never made merchandise of his own people. He made his life a sacrifice to feed the sheep. God Bless | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
the_west_here_i_come, You said, "I understand that many are afraid of leadership but its a necessity because its part of the real structure of the church." Look at Robert post number 259. The leaders are in the church to serve and to guide and not to control, manipulate or to take the roll of mediators between God and us. I believe that the New Testament churches met in private homes and I believe that Jesus Christ's church in the end times will meet in private homes again. Today some christians meet only in private homes. The point I want to make if that if we allow one leader to have authority to be mediators between us and God with false doctrines like the doctrine of spiritual covering, and allow leaders to control us, then the church could get transformed into a cult. I would hopefully not allow a false leader to take advantage of Jesus Christ precious sheep and transform the sheep into merchandise in my home. Jesus Christ paid a high price for our salvation he die for us. He gave his own blood for our salvation. The original apostles were poor and suffer a lot to preach this precious gospel. So I would advice anyone not to follow any controlling, leader who tries play God in your life. The Holy Spirit is able to guide each one of us to all truth. I believe that the following quoted in red is a dangerous false doctrine,"If God dares to entrust His authority to man, then we can dare to obey. Whether the one in authority is right or wrong does not concern us. The obedient one needs only to obey. The Lord will not hold us responsible for any mistaken obedience, rather He will hold the delegated authority responsible for his erroneous act." In addition, he states, "We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us" I believe that in the date of judgement will be personally responsible for our actions and wrong doings even if those actions and wrongdoings where caused by obeying false leaders who preached the above false heresy and required unquestionable obedience. Leaders are not mediators between God and men. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and us. Go is capable of guiding us thought the Holy Spirit to all truth. | ||
| robert_unknown Intermediate Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
@ the_west... sorry for the misunderstanding, i did not refer to what you said or to watchman nee. i do agree 100% with what you say. unfortunately people like the ones i mentioned dont sacrifice themselves to the church or Christ, but expect others to sacrifice their lives to them. this is a perversion of the gospel. | ||
| robert_unknown Intermediate Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 263 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
sorry, i was refering to this sentence:
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| the_west_here_i_come New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.152.147 |
I agree Pilgrim about no one is called to be mediators between us and the Lord. In fact, the Bible denounces this in Revealtion about the deeds of the Nicholaitans.I never said that He's teachings were perfect but the man loved God. Read his best sellers. After I left EN, I had read the normal christian church life and he addresses the issue of leaders who are called to be gifts to the body of Christ not like pagans at EN. Nee never made merchandise of his own people and if if was is hell bent on authority why didn't he address it in everyone of his writings? Because he wasn't power hungry. Pilgrim I suggest to go and read the Normal Christian Church Life. He addresses the issue of leaders being gifts not thorns! Hope this helps | ||
| robert_unknown Intermediate Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 264 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 80.109.163.152 |
LOL - isnt this anti-christian? i mean jesus was concerner aboud right and wrong and good and evil. such crap, i cannot believe it. pilgrim who teached this? whom are you quoting? | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
robert_unknown, Re: you previous quote, Look at my post 101 and the following website to find the answer. http://www.watchman.org/cults/onemasterchrist.htm Quoted from the above website,"abusive, controlling authority in the Discipleship, Shepherding groups. This false teaching came into American churches through Watchman Nee and his book Spiritual Authority. Nee says on page 71, "If God dares to entrust His authority to man, then we can dare to obey. Whether the one in authority is right or wrong does not concern us. The obedient one needs only to obey. The Lord will not hold us responsible for any mistaken obedience, rather He will hold the delegated authority responsible for his erroneous act." In addition, he states, "We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us" (page 23). |
