| Author |
Message |
    
tryingtofightback
Junior Member
Username: tryingtofightback
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.15.9.184
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 3:51 am: | 
|
Matthew 8:31 So the demons begged him, saying "If you cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine." Why did the demons want to go into the pigs? Shortly after the demons entered the swine why did the demons run the herd of swine into the sea so that the swine would perish? |
40days40years
Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 65
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.192.56.202
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 5:33 am: |
|
The demons wanted a place to stay that is why they asked. No the swine ran themselves into the sea is my guess in repulsion to the presence of the demons or maybe the Lord did it to make a statement. Kind of symbolic, the unclean swine perishing. The real question is why was there a herd of swine there in the first place. Maybe the Romans protected that herd? |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 169
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 10:24 am: |
|
An Orthodox commentator offers this regarding the passage, "The demons asked this so that they could drown the swine, and thus the owners would be grieved and would not welcome Christ. Christ granted the demons their request in order to show how great is their bitterness towards men, and that if they had the power, and were not prevented as they are by God, they would do worse things to us than they did to the swine. For God protects those possessed by demons so that they do not kill themselves."
St. John Chrysostom (4th Century AD) wrote on this passage "Now if someone should say, `And on what account did Christ vouchsafe the demons' request, allowing them I to go away into the herd of swine?' we would answer that He did this, not as being persuaded, but expressing economy for many matters there. One, to teach those set free from those evil tyrants how great is the outrage and ill-treatment of those who treacherously plot against them. Another, that all might learn how not even against swine are they bold, except if He permits them. Third, that they would have treated those men more harshly than the swine, unless even in their misfortune they had enjoyed much of God's providential care." [Hom. 28, P. G. 57:337 (col. 354).]"
Take what you will. |
xman3
Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 54
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.59
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 10:49 am: |
|
Interesting how in both of those views there is an indication of the demons desire to harm the swine. I hadn't considered that much. I am struck by the notion they would do worse to us than the swine if they could.
Truth is, though, apart from hearing them from you or other well versed people, we don't often hear the views of early church fathers and such. One of them lazy swine demons must have got into me because I just don't do that much studying. I really like seeing it though, but lets see.... golf..... study word... which one. I'll ponder this some after my round today. |
40days40years
Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 66
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 12:24 pm: |
|
Well if the commentary is 4th century AD then the pigs thing happened over 300 years earlier so that is not exactly an eye witness account. So his view might be right but it might be wrong to.
Pigs are very sociable creatures and intelligent. Lets say your one of those swine having a nice day doing what a swine does, hanging out with your friends and the swine next to you goes exorcist on you and you feel something evil. I don't know but that might be a good time to panic? The herd instinct is going to kick in and you will follow the pig next to you. How much control would a demon have over an upset pig anyway? We have all heard of people dying at a buildings exit trying to escape fire. The pigs are also operating with their own freewill, maybe they were trying to get away no matter how dangerous the route? I have heard of a police dog refusing to go into a building because it sensed something malevolent so why is a pig any differant? Then you also figure there are a multitude of demons with differant points of view many of themselves in a panic state because they were in the presence of the Son of God and just reminded of their fate. That might make some of them act a little crazy? Then you have to throw in the God factor who can control the pigs if he wants too.
I am going with the pigs freaked out theory for now. Food for thought. How could someone own a herd of taboo animals though in that place. Try that in a Islamic nation. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 170
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 1:22 pm: |
|
quote:40days: Well if the commentary is 4th century AD then the pigs thing happened over 300 years earlier so that is not exactly an eye witness account. So his view might be right but it might be wrong to.
As opposed to your interpretation that is, hmmm, let's see, 2000 years separated? 
Consider that Chrysostom's interpretation is in the context of an uninterrupted relationship with the Apostles. While there may be other legitimate interpretations, it seems rather illogical to assert that because an author is 300 years removed from the event, an interpretation 1700 years removed from his is more plausible.
Just a thought... |
coppertree
Junior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.163.183.190
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 4:36 pm: |
|
Hi All,
Not wanting to rub someone's holy grail the wrong way... I would say in the Word, it shows that sometimes the founding persons were wrong.
 } |
40days40years
Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 6:44 pm: |
|
O.K about this commentator stating: "The demons asked this so that they could drown the swine, and thus the owners would be grieved and would not welcome Christ.
40/40: I don't know about you but if I was a demon and had just met Jesus Christ of Nazareth I would be a lot more concerned at that moment of avoiding being judged before my time then upsetting the owners of the swine but that is just me.
commentator: Christ granted the demons their request in order to show how great is their bitterness towards men, and that if they had the power, and were not prevented as they are by God, they would do worse things to us than they did to the swine.
40/40: Like I said maybe the demons wanted to be in a body, any body available, now a pig in a controlled herd is not an ideal choice, since demons can speak they would prefer a human host but hey they were desperate. I don't think God needed dead swine to get across the point about demons being powerful and how malevolent they can be in this case. After all these demoniacs would run around naked, insane, breaking chains, cutting themselves and intimidating people in general. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 173
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 3:17 pm: |
|
Well, I guess you're opinion is certainly better than John Chrysostom's. |
xman3
Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.59
| | Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 6:59 pm: |
|
The Word does show where the founding father's were wrong, but it also shows where God corrected them, such as Peter not knowing the gentiles could be saved and receive the Holy Spirit.
I definitely do not hold the early views as equal to scripture, but find them interesting, informative, and always worth considering because as mcm stated, they often came out of uninterrupted relationship with the apostles.
I've seen this perspective grossly twisted at the expense of other's however, and do my best to keep things in perpective in regards to scripture. |
anti_fascist
New member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.102
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 6:21 am: |
|
Now why do you believe the Apostles had it right?
Afterall the Bible is a repeating saga of how men of God fall, because they are men.
The Bible tells us about God and the events in lives of men that listen to His calling. However it is not the supernatural inerrant 'Word of God'.
If it really was that, there wouldn't be thousands of interpretations, denominations, cults and all the abuse attached to it. |
xman3
Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.59
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 7:09 am: |
|
I believe the apostles had it right for the most part because they received it first hand from Jesus himself. I am no expert as to how much of their writings are exactly based on Jesus precise words.
I don't think that every early writing is necessarily more accurate though, just interesting and informative, and a fairly credible source for doctrinal understanding. I believe there are a lot of things that are not addressed as far as I know by these early writers in much depth though. |
philiprosenthal
New member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 1:23 am: |
|
The explanation I have had was that the demons don't have bodies of their own and thus seek to use others bodies in order to manifest themselves. When they were expelled from the demon possessed man, they wanted to find another body to get into. Pigs don't provide demons with quite as much opportunity to express themselves as a human being, so they are rather second best - but better than nothing.
With respect to the second question - why did the swine get the pigs to commit suicide? I don't know, but the question assumes that the demons were rational and calculating. Rather I would argue that the scripture indicates that evil is usually pictured as being 'foolish' and 'self-destructive' - see numerous examples in the book of proverbs. Evil people are always doing things that in the long term harm themselves and so it should then not surprise us if demons do the same. |
anti_fascist
New member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 3:37 am: |
|
Do you honestly believe such nonsense!
Demons, etc do not exist. It is a symbolic way of explaining our ability of doing evil, and good.
Come on folks, the superstitions of the dark ages and belief in witchcraft are avatars of a distant and dark past.
Rosenthal, put your bed on bricks, less the Tokkelosje comes to visit you! 
How about claiming the earth is flat? |
dust
Junior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 49
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 8:07 am: |
|
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
|
anti_fascist
New member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:02 am: |
|
Obviously this is a passage that has to be understood in the second degree. it's a metaphor.
Taking it litterally is insane.
How about taking a reality check: the earth is flat, ok, the Bible says so...
Ever read 'Gulliver's travels'? Do you believe there to be a Lilliput?
If people are ready to believe such twaddle, then they are CONSENTING victims of EN.
(Message edited by anti_fascist on May 08, 2007) |
speakword2004
Junior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:45 am: |
|
Having lived in Africa for 35 years I think I have encountered a demon or two and they are very real as are dead human spirits. |
anti_fascist
New member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:58 am: |
|
Are sure you are not a racist? Why is Africa so associated with demonology? Come on, go see a shrink! |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 111
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:00 am: |
|
AF there are times when I see your point only to watch you dash any hope of credulity with the insults. So is this passage stating that the struggle of good and evil is the irrepressibility of men or that evil goes beyond the corporal and lies in another realm. The reason I ask is that the Greeks though acknowledging gods, in fact the Pantheon was a playground of sorts for them, held people under a opressive government rule. Paul might be construed here as saying that our struggles aren't about adhering to rules and perfection in the flesh but a tangible source of evil outside ourselves. That being the case Jesus' death on the cross was more than symbolic.
Jonesee |
speakword2004
Junior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 46
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:26 am: |
|
AF obviously I was excluding Arab Africa and maybe the Nubians. Yes, you are right only bantus experience demons. In fact, only people who have pencils stick in their hair can have demons. Thanks for for pointing that one out. I missed that in the last rewrite of scripture. Next time I meet an Arab or a mixed race or person of Caucasian persuasion who has encountered ghosts or demons I will be sure to ask if there were bantus involved. Obviously they have to be psychologically disturbed too, so I will be sure to give them a lecture about both their insanity and racism.
You read me like a book. Let me get on with my day opressing the masses/proletariat. Yank! Yank! |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 214
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:32 am: |
|
A-F, I am not as nice as Jonesee. What the hell is your purpose here? You don't have a dog in the fight with EN and your smug and arrogant attitude has done nothing to assist anyone.
Leave these people alone, there is much to sort out after coming out of an oppressive religious organization like EN. You have just stirred up the pot and made it more difficult for them.
And you wouldn't know a demon if one inhabited you. And that is obvious.
Drive-by Matt |
dust
Junior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 50
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:57 am: |
|
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Luke 10:18: And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Acts 26: 15 "And I said, `Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 `But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil ,
Re 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world ; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
James 2:19 Even the demons believe and shudder....
Is Matthew a liar?
Is Paul a liar?
Is Luke a liar?
Is John a liar?
Is James a liar?
Is Jesus a liar? |
anti_fascist
New member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 3:45 pm: |
|
'Off with their heads, off with their heads' yelled the Queen of Hearts. (Alice in Wonderland)
Dust, it is just soooo obvious that these passages are metaphorical. In fact the ENTIRE New Testament is a metaphore.
The names above were no liars, but you have to understand that what they had to communicate, they did in the style of their era, which was the metaphore.
Maybe the fundamentalists are missing the essence of the message because of their inability to realise this.
Try and read 'The Symbolism in the Gospel of John' by Paul Diel and Jannine Solotareff.
Speakword, don't drink and post. And do make an appointment to see a shrink, less the Tokkelosje comes for you. Up in Limpopo they say he has horns, a long beard, and his breath smells so bad, you faint....*
need a tip where to get potent muti? |
xman3
Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.59
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 6:12 pm: |
|
The names above were no liars, but you have to understand that what they had to communicate, they did in the style of their era, which was the metaphore.
That's sillier than your usual take on scripture. First off, they are liars if scripture is not true.
Second, the ridiculousness of thinking that writers were limited in style by their era is peposterous. There's a lot of metaphor in the Bible, but you've proven yourself unable to distinguish what yet again.
I doubt anyone ever reads anything you keep suggesting. We get the gist of the swill from you, why bother? You've already told us your agenda. You are anti-Christian, anti-Bible, anti-Phil Rosenthal, and anti whatever it takes to finish your paper and get on with your cause to drive God out of S.A. politics and life.
Me, I'm usually not anti anything, but I am anti anti-facist. You are one of the few people here I have no use for whatsoever. You act as though you have a common cause with many here, but you have a strange godless cause that appeals to people other than those who hang out in the EN thread.
You told us earlier you were going to stay away. Time to keep that promise old boy. Or are you the liar? |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 219
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:02 pm: |
|
Again, I ask you...what is your purpose here? You are one of the most disturbing and creepy posters I have read on factnet, mainly because you just don't have a reason for being here, other than presenting an agenda that has nothing to do with this board.
What will it take to for you to realize that NOBODY is going to read your Oprah's Book Club suggestions? Sheesh.
Like Xman said, you said once you were going to leave...and you come back. Are you the liar? |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 116
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:26 pm: |
|
Paul Diel's works, the one you cite in particular are texts held in theological seminaries around our country. His study of metaphors in Greek Mythology are equated with the book you've referenced, 'The Symbolism in the Gospel of John'. So AF do you consider the scripture mythological?
Jonesee |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 119
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 9:43 pm: |
|
AF, the book is on it's way I'll get back with you.
Jonesee |