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the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 4:51 am: | 
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I really can't believe I am so willing to go out on a limb for you. But, hey soon or later we all fall down. Perhaps it is my turn today.
If you please, Mr. Purification7, book chapter and verse. Again, we have established that the Bible is written in plain English, so there is not reason for your religious interpretation.
One example, if you please, from God's (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages (book chapter and verse)
1. one single soul who quote, unquote "received a second or subsequent event to salvation."
Just book chapter and verse, I can read for my self. For those who may not know, this too is one of the Assembly of God's four carnal doctrines. |
purification7
New member
Username: purification7
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 4.174.133.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 8:17 am: |
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I am so honored that you made 3 posts for me.
God's (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages.......What is your lingo? You seem like you have a deep seated root of anger against those who believe the written word. To be honest this is getting boring. You have an dominating spirit that you need to be delivered from.
First you are not to teach men if you are a woman, you are to teach woman and children not men as it is written. So just as you think your right, God bears witness against you. 1Timothy 2:9-15
1Corinthians 14:34-39
I am not afraid of studying or researching, but true Christians only authority is the written word of God in context.
Yours seems to be a book that you read which is someone elses opinions and ideas, which means you are not open minded and are under mind control of another spirit other then Christ.
You seem to be very angry and bitter against a group of people for believing the Holy Christian Bible. I think they call that hate groups.
You never showed me a verse from the scriptures yet, so that tells me you have nothing and God never sent you, for it is written, those who God sends speaks Gods Word, of the which you have not.
Jesus also gave us an example to know who speaks of themself and/or by the influence of demons, or truly seeks Gods Glory....
John 7:16-18 (King James Version)
16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Seems like your seeking John Wesleys Glory?
It turns out that you seem to need the counseling and deliverance, and I say that with no joy but hope you get the Christian Counseling you need.
You are making this board worse then better.
Purification7 |
bear
New member
Username: bear
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.157.3
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:57 pm: |
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Hello purification7,
I need to comment on two of your Statements:
1. You have an dominating spirit that you need to be delivered from.
First, 99.9% of people who have a domination/control issue do not have an actual demon controlling them. Most of the time it is a learned pattern from their childhood. Insecurity usally is an issue with this, and it is a matter of finding the root, forgiving if needed, and allowing God to heal their heart. A good Christian counselor can assist in this process. I am speaking from personal expirience.
I have known many a person who has had a demo "cast out", and they are in he same boat for one reason: it was not a demon, rather they needed the process that I just mentioned.
That is true deliverance in the biblical sense. (I will concede that some people have been controlled by a spirit).
2. First you are not to teach men if you are a woman, you are to teach woman and children not men as it is written. So just as you think your right, God bears witness against you. 1Timothy 2:9-15
A correct study of scripture involves a process known as lower and higher critisism.
When doing this in 1 Timmothy 2, you will find that their was a pagan femenist movement that was prevailing in the church. Meetings were being disrupted, and authority issues were a problem. Paul, as in his other writings, was addressing this issue which was alrady known to the readers.
Remember, Peter even said that Paul writes some things that were hard to understand, or a better way to say it is with clarity.
Paul was originally speaking to someone who understood the issue. That is why it is important for every true bible student to study the history surrounding a teaching.
- This unbiblical view of women is abusive. It has been the cause of more unfair, ungodly treatment of women in the church than anything else.
- atm is not a woman, lol!
- There is not mention of children in this text.
I have a Pentecostal background; even graduating from a Pent. college. I have seen the abuses and the unbiblical/extra-biblical theories that are alive and well. |
ezekiel_37
Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 58
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 67.71.84.164
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:55 am: |
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We could show you both Old Testament and New Testament proof that women are allowed to teach whoever, men and women.
Bear is correct. Paul was speaking to a specific problem at the time. It was never meant as a proof against women leading or teaching men. |
turtle
Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.239.149
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 5:31 am: |
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ezekiel,
How about leave it for that other thread in doctrine/beliefs/proofs? 
You all have fun with this one if you keep it going I think I will stay out of it this time. Actually I am feel more like Praising the Lord these days then debating. Anyone else in the Praising mood.
Praise the Lord for all His wonderful blessings.
Praise His Holy Name, Let the earth rejoice and be glad for the Lord is good.
turtle |
purification7
Junior Member
Username: purification7
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 4.174.152.116
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 9:07 am: |
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Good Idea Turtle,
I will bless thee oh LORD, I will bless thee oh LORD, with a heart of thanks giving, I will bless thee oh LORD.
With my hands lifted up, and my mouth filled with praise, with a heart of thanksgiving, I will bless thee oh LORD.
dom·i·nate /ˈdɒməˌneɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dom-uh-neyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -nat·ed, -nat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to rule over; govern; control.
2. to tower above; overlook; overshadow: A tall pine dominated the landscape.
3. to predominate, permeate, or characterize.
4. Mathematics. (of a series, vector, etc.) to have terms or components greater in absolute value than the corresponding terms or components of a given series, vector, etc.
5. Linguistics. (of a node in a tree diagram) to be connected with (a subordinate node) either directly by a single downward branch or indirectly by a sequence of downward branches.
–verb (used without object)
6. to rule; exercise control; predominate.
7. to occupy a commanding or elevated position.
[Origin: 1605–15; < L dominātus (ptp. of dominārī to master, control), equiv. to domin- (s. of dominus) master + -ātus -ate1]
—Related forms
dom·i·nat·ing·ly, adverb
dom·i·na·tor, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
dom·i·nate (dŏm'ə-nāt') Pronunciation Key
v. dom·i·nat·ed, dom·i·nat·ing, dom·i·nates
v. tr.
1. To control, govern, or rule by superior authority or power: Successful leaders dominate events rather than react to them.
2. To exert a supreme, guiding influence on or over: Ambition dominated their lives.
3. To enjoy a commanding, controlling position in: a drug company that dominates the tranquilizer market.
4. To overlook from a height: a view from the cliffside chalet that dominates the valley.
v. intr.
1. To have or exert strong authority or mastery.
2. To be situated in or occupy a position that is more elevated or decidedly superior to others.
[Latin dominārī, domināt-, to rule, from dominus, lord; see dem- in Indo-European roots.] |
rachelengland
Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 85
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:56 am: |
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"We could show you both Old Testament and New Testament proof that women are allowed to teach whoever, men and women.
Bear is correct. Paul was speaking to a specific problem at the time. It was never meant as a proof against women leading or teaching men". E
E, now that is a point you and I can agree on! God does not see the sex(M/F) he sees the heart and has given all mouths to speak. Men can not claim the rights to be used ONLY by God- that is putting limitations on Him as being all powerful.
I am not trying to take this off course but the treatment of women within the church and prejudice held against them, is no different than any other prejudice we have seen through-out history. R |
purification7
Junior Member
Username: purification7
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 4.174.152.116
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:58 am: |
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Why is it, that out of all I said you people look to start arguments? Yes that is also a spirit. As I mentioned before somewhere about how I never
seen such little casting out of devils as in the modern Church today.
And NO Woman are not to be Pastors and teach men as one of, or in authority. Paul also said WHAT SAYS THE LAW?
They are to even wear a covering on their head when praying or prophesying in public, as not to anger the angels. Read it its there. And its the New Testament Church so put a cork in it.
Just as it is a shame for a man to wear anything on his head when publicly praying or prophesying.
So it not hair OK? good.
Men try wearing your hat in a court room. See if the Judge cares about your greek words :-) The Judge will teach you a new word like Contempt lol
Just because a woman can receive salvation benefits and the HolyGhost baptism DOES NOT MEAN SHE CAN RULE THE HOME, JUST AS SHE CANNOT RUN THE CHURCH, Period.............. I was in a church that Ordained woman and I seen for myself how they are not true Pastors of Gods flock. Going by their harmones and not the Spirit. I have never met a woman that is not altered in personality when going through their who who thingy.
If woman are not under the Law, as the modern heresy says, then why do woman still get their period if they are not under the Law? Their under grace then why still the curse? Divine curse is still in effect just as submission to man is in effect. Got it ? good.
Hey can anyone PMS? pack my suitcase LOLOLOL
Because of the transgression. Because of the Woman, Sin entered the World, for God said WHAT HAVE YOU DONE! Woman is to submit to the man not man to the woman. Woman was made for the Man, not Man for the Woman.
But most men gave up there authority which is the reason for divorce mostly. Hey the truth huts sorry. FOR ADAM DID NOT SIN BUT THE WOMAN.
Woman are to teach Woman, What?
HOW TO SUBMIT TO THEIR HUSBAND and TEACH THE CHILDREN, TAKE CARE OF THE HOME 1Peter 3 read the scriptures and do them. For Man is created in the Image of God and woman is created in the Image of Man. The woman cannot be the head of the Church just as she cannot be the head of the home. |
purification7
Junior Member
Username: purification7
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 4.174.152.116
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
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Sorry your dead wrong. And they ARE NOT TO TEACH THEIR HUSBANDS!!! But with their good behavior win their husbands to Christ, if the husband is not Christian. Hey take it up with God. Woman are emotional which makes for a bad leader.
And to submit is not just their husbands but to respect all men including, Pastors and elders etc.
Most problems in the church today is because men put woman in authority that God never ordained. Look for yourself a Bishop, Deacon, Elder is men not woman. And Elder lady was respect of greeting did not mean she was an elder of the church. There are no woman pastors in the bible. Just because deborah had a JOB as a Judge did not make her an Elder of the Church OK? good.
God put woman and children in authority over his people For PUNISHMENT!!!! It was a Judgment against their sin.
People are walking around sick and diseased and the pastors are becoming nutritionist and psychologist instead of laying on of hands anointing with oil in Jesus Name and taking authority over satan and his tool box like Jesus teaches us. Of course we have to eat right and take care of ourself, duh. And No I am not against doctors and medicine.
No not all have power to cast out devils, for Jesus said these are the SIGNS That Shall Follow THEM that BELIEVE, They Shall Cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues etc.
Many say there believers but no manifested signs following as written in the word. Means they are imposters, and Liars and nothing more but wolf in sheep clothing.
What is troubling me is how did Jesus say it is written, speaking the scriptures when dealing with satan with confidence that the scriptures where correct, or did he carry around an concordance and look it up first to see the hebrew meaning first and go to the library to study the social events of the day before speaking to and casting out devils, healing the sick raising the dead? Come on Church wake up its pathetic. Jesus casted out spirits with His Word.
He rebuked the lawyers and told them you search the scriptures and THINK you have eternal life, but the scriptures bare witness of me. And if my WORD is not in you how is the My Father your God?
Or did He trust the scriptures because He was the Living Word reading the written Word?
I am at a loss for words how people claiming to Know him have no signs and wonders following them. And even doubt the Holy Bible which is inspired by GOD and are for doctrine, for correction for reproof etc.
Why did Jesus say come as a child if you people make His word so hard to understand that you have to have a college education to speak or believe a scripture.
Where is your Faith? |
purification7
Junior Member
Username: purification7
Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 4.174.152.116
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:09 pm: |
|
To be honest I think this is my last post because this place is poison. And its a shame people truly seeking help or to help those coming out of true known cults will get more confused then they were before joining a cult. The so called Christian are destroying not building, who know not the Gospel or the Power of God.
God says Those who destroy my temple I will destroy. Most self acclaimed Christians or so they think they are should find another message board to destroy people. Hey there are plenty of Christian message boards online that you can destroy each other all day long.
Why did God give us Apostles and Pastors, Teachers, Prophets & Prophetesses, and Most of all the Gift of the Spirit Baptism if all you need is a few books and an concordance?
I suggest you all take a trip to NY City to go to the American Bible Society so you can learn where your Holy Bible came from. They have a whole tour and manuscripts, and every thing one needs to learn about the scriptures origin. Its pretty cool.
I guess there is no need for learning if you know it all and have no need of Gods gifts and/or over site.
A line is drawn in the sand, which side are you on?
Well its been real
No need to respond cause I wont see it
I truly wish you all the best and nothing but good health and wealth, spiritually and Financially.
(Message edited by Purification7 on May 02, 2007) |
rachelengland
Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:16 pm: |
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God put woman and children in authority over his people For PUNISHMENT!!!! It was a Judgment against their sin. Pure
Wow pure-you are more backwards than I thought. God can use whom he pleases to get His message out to the masses. You are very legalistic in your theology-I feel sorry for people like you and the poor women who have to live under your command.
The teachers in the temple were impressed with the knowledge Christ had as a young boy... God's power and knowledge is not limited to adult men. Women have a voice and it doesn't just belong in the nursery or the sewing club...Bye |
rachelengland
Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:52 pm: |
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"Well its been real
No need to respond cause I wont see it" PURE
Sure.........
I just love those hit and run types....must be another prophet! |
turtle
Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.239.149
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 1:23 pm: |
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Purification let's just keep praising the Lord til we all come in unity. |
ezekiel_37
Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 59
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.158.182.88
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 6:51 pm: |
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Bear, If this purification fella comes back,
I think that you should be the one to converse with him, as you came out of the cult of Pentecostalism.
He embodies all that is wrong theologically in that denomination ... and is 'sottish' about the truth.
Women teachers,
hats as a covering instead of Christ,
because of the angels,
no pants when ISRAELI men wore skirts/not pants,
babbling messages from God ... and probably babbling prayers TO Him as well.
Pur..
On the off chance that you do read this,
may I apologize for my part in making you angry. I will turn the other cheek!!! I came to bring truth, and I did actually agree with some of your post.
Heeling's are to be asked of God, after one is anointed with Olive Oil (the oil of our people) and prayed over by the church elder/leader. Now, it should be known that any person can anoint any other person.
...but that is a far cry from what we see on Pentecostal TV shows. Blowing, spitting, fainting...fake.
so, as for demons, evil spirits, yah they exist.
They can be driven out in the authority of Christ's name ... as it has power to do so.
But they can also deceive church goers. Babyl is a perfect example. It is either a minister who is a con man, or evil spirits that babyl. God doesn't babyl. He is clear and precise when He speaks and EVERYONE understands when God speaks....NO INTERPRETATION NEEDED, or it is not directly from God.
So, a babyl tongue is a perfect example of your casting out of evil spirits. They have got your church friend!!! Have they got you???
Bye.
in His service
c |
turtle
Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.239.149
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 10:04 pm: |
|
ezekiel,
If you got time finish checking out the gift of the Holy Spirit on my weekly Bible Study. See what you think. Thanks.
God Bless you
turtle |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 101
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 6:30 pm: |
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Mr. Purification7
Come, Mr. Purification, it should be clear to even you why I refuse to deal with pentecostals on multiple thought tracks at once. I am curious, though. Why the assault on my gender but not Ms. Turtle’s? Do you consider it appropriate for pentecostal women to teach men but not Christian women to teach men? You did not answer my question from above, any reason? |
bear
New member
Username: bear
Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.157.3
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 11:17 pm: |
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Ezekiel,
I doubt that e will be back.
True, he does embody all that is wrong theologically with the pentecostals. |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:50 pm: |
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TATM - You asked the question: One example, if you please, from God's Word, where one single soul received a second or subsequent event to salvation. At least that was what this thread started with. I will try to use God's Word to justify my viewpoint, and kindly ask you defend your position with the same.
Romans 10:9 says that "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
In John 20, after the resurrection of Jesus, we find the disciples huddled in the Upper Room, "for fear of the Jews" (v 19.). The verse continues with, "Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, 'Peace be unto you.'" At this point, the disciples "were glad when they saw the Lord," (v.20) and they definitely "believed in their hearts that God hath raised Him from the dead", fulfilling the second half of Romans 10:9.
Earlier, in Matthew 16:16, Peter had said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus Himself had said, in John 13:13, Ye call Me Master and Lord: and ye say well, for so I am.
Thus, the disciples had, at the Upper Room, fulfilled the New Covenant requirements for salvation by faith in the risen Jesus Christ. They were now born again believers.
However, Romans 8:9 says, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, and is automatically received at the moment of salvation, without asking. This is referred to in Ephesians 1:13-14, as "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance..."
In the Upper Room, the disciples received the indwelling Holy Spirit, completing their salvation. Verse 22 reads, "And when He had said, this, He breathed on them, saying, 'Receive ye the Holy Spirit.'" Again, at this point, the disciples were born again believers in Jesus Christ. They had fulfilled Romans 10:9.
If the disciples were saved at John 20:22, then might not the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost be a second or subsequent event to salvation?
So what does the Bible say was the purpose behind the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?
Luke 24:47-49 gives the clearest, most specific purpose of the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Jesus says, Repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold I send the promise of My Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Not my opinion, it is the Word.
Acts 1:4-5,8 again addresses Pentecost. Jesus instructs the disciples to, wait for the promise of the Father, which ye have heard of Me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence. (Verse 8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me.
Jesus did not say that the disciples would receive salvation, or eternal life, when the Holy Spirit came upon them. He was clearly addressing the ministry of evangelism, and the power of the Holy Spirit they would receive, so that they would be successful. Obviously, Acts 16:31 does not say, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt receive power.
That is just the first example of a second or subsequent reception of the Spirit in God's Word... |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 113
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:58 am: |
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M(r)(s). Mhead66:
First, one must prove that is such a thing as a second or subsequent event to salvation. Your "proof" text falls short in many areas. To begin with, we have two thousand years of written Christian history that contradicts your religion's perversion.
Let us start with the Roman Road. Acts 8:12. Were this people saved according to your religion's Roman Road?
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12 (KJV). |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:33 am: |
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TATM - You said that I must prove that a second event occurs, that my "proof" text falls short. I listed eight Bible passages, passages from the Word of God, trying to prove my point. Your reply listed 2000 years of Christian history.
Again, the Word of God says:
1 Timothy 2:15 - Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Our faith, our point of view MUST be based upon what God's Word says, and not our own opinion, or 2000 years of Church history. I feel this is one of the great flaws of Catholicism - that church "tradition" is equal to the Word. Please forgive me if this offends you, or if you are Catholic. I'm new here!
Doctrine must be Biblically based. That is why I stated in my last thread, I will try to use God's Word to justify my viewpoint, and kindly ask you defend your position with the same. You did not respond to my point of view on John 20:22, Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8, using the Word of God. Please do so.
To answer your question, using the Word of God, regarding Acts 8:
Philip preaches to the Samaritans, and they believed and were born again:
v12: "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
Again, Biblically, NO ONE IS EVER baptized in water without first being born again - it is a post-conversion sign, similar to the O.T. circumcision.
v14: Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
v15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might recieve the Holy Spirit:
v16: (For as yet He was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
v17: Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Notice several things:
1. The apostles laid hands, for baptized believers to receive the Holy Spirit - and the indwelling Spirit is automatic at conversion (Eph 1:13-14).
2. v16 says that the Spirit was not yet fallen, but they had only recieved a baptism in water - this clearly compares the Spirit's falling - administered by the laying of hands - with another baptism. Baptism of the Spirit?
3. Although it doesn't directly say that the new converts immediately functioned in spiritual gifts - a result of the empowerment of the Spirit - it says that Simon (v. 19) "saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given." He saw something manifested, because he said, "Give me also this power." We cannot see any immediate physical evidence of the reception of the indwelling Spirit at salvation, so what did he see? Likely, as in Acts 19 and Acts 10, he saw the manifestation of the Spirit, produced by the Baptism of the Spirit.
Without using "church history", what do you think of this second, subsequent grace after salvation? |
arron
Intermediate Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 129
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.34.187
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:52 am: |
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mhead66.... i am pentecostal and as such believe in the receiving of THE HOLY GHOST and tongues. i was saved in the baptist church then i saw more so i received THE BAPTISIUM OF THE HOLY GHOST WITH THE EVIDENCE OF TONGUES. i was already saved and already had THE SPIRIT OF GOD but not THE BAPTISIUM i know that i am saved i function in the gifts as THE SPIRIT moves on me to do so. others in our church speak in tongues, interpet, pray for the sick, aoint with oil,prophecy, and use different gifts in the bible mentioned. we do not make a "show" of them or get fanatical with them beu we do use them |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 114
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:29 pm: |
|
M(r)(s). Mhead66:
Quoting: "what do you think of this second, subsequent grace after salvation?"
End quote.
Simple, It did not happen! As I said before trying read every text in context without a pretext. The folks in Acts 8:12, Acts 19:1; Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 were, in fact, lost. How do I know that? I read the bible in context, not a religious guide book.
I would suggest you read and study several post before going any further.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/29999.html?1175698634 This thread proves Acts 8:12 are, in fact, lost.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/30639.html?1178977124 This thread discusses the origins of pentecostal tongues.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/31402.html?1179690135 Here is the origins of your religion's Bible.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16691.html?1177585185 Here is a lengthly discussion on faked infantile gibberish.
You may also read all the questions addressed to Mr. Purification7. He, too, is unable to locate your religion's garbology. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 115
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:34 pm: |
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M(r)(s). Mhead66:
May I add a quick PS? PS and by the by, the Roman Road of salvation is manmade and quiet erroneous. If you plan to get to heaven on the Roman Road, good luck! I think there is a small chance God knows what he wrote in a book thousands of years ago.
PSS. You plan of salvation is basis on the doctrine of the Roman church you condemned. But you knew that right? |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:37 pm: |
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TATM
In reference to your links on tongues and the use of the Dake's Bible, let me first say that I used, and have quoted, the King James Bible. Tongues is another matter, and we can gladly discuss it at length if you wish, but we digress. The thread was regarding a second, subsequent event after salvation, which charismatics (and ALL FOUR GOSPELS) call the baptism of the Spirit.
You said, "Simple, It did not happen! As I said before trying read every text in context without a pretext." Well, first of all, with all due respect, you are not responding to what I've written, by saying, "it did not happen." That is like the child's argument, who says, "Because, that's why." Reading a text in context is reading it as a complete passage, without picking a single verse out of a entire thought process to make a point. How did I do that with my point of view?
In my first thread, I said that in John 20:22, the disciples believed that Jesus was risen, called Him Lord, and had received the Holy Spirit. They had fulfilled the New Covenant requirements for salvation. Then, fifty days later, at Pentecost, they received BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says (Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8) that this SECOND reception of the Spirit was "to be endued with power" to be witnesses, NOT FOR SALVATION. You haven't addressed these Scriptures in your answers.
Both Acts 8 and Acts 19 specifically state that the Samaritans / John's former followers:
8:12, 13 "believed Philip and were baptized"
19:5 "when they heard this, they were baptized"
Your first link is to a thread that seems to say that baptism does not equal regeneration. I could not agree more! Baptism, according to my understanding of Romans 4, is the New Testament equivalent of Old Testament circumcision - an outward SIGN of an inward change. It is not necessary for salvation - but should be followed afterwards, in obedience to Christ.
However, in Acts 8, I would HAVE to assume that Peter, John and Philip knew this, as did Luke, when he received the words to chapter 8 by the Holy Spirit. One is NOT Biblically baptized in water before salvation - so, if they are called believers, and were baptized in water, they MUST have been born again before baptism in water. Then, afterwards, Peter and John laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
I completely agree with you, that one cannot be saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - in the linked thread, you listed John 3 & 4, Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 1 & 5 as being Scriptures indicating such. I agree - you must have the Holy Spirit indwelling you to be saved. However, would the apostles have not know this - why would they have baptized people prior to salvation - including Paul in Acts 19?
The Bible identifies the second, subsequent to salvation reception of the Spirit for empowerment for witnessing, not for indwelling or sealing the new believer.
BTW, for reference sake, I am a Southern Baptist father of three - and I thank you for the spirited discussion! God Bless! |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 118
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:53 pm: |
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Mr. Mhead66:
Acts 8:12 did not have the Holy Spirit, should you decide to read your Bible! Would you like me to read it for you?
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12 (KJV).
"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 8:15,16 (KJV).
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his." Romans 8:9 (KJV)
Now if you will be so kind as to tell me in which passage God lied, I will be happy to agree with you. Otherwise, the folks in Acts 8:12; Acts 19:1; Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 were lost. The same applies to the disciples in John. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 119
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:56 pm: |
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Mr. Mhead66:
May I ask just one more question? Why do you think John Wesley said in his "Complete Works of John Wesley" there is no such thing as a second or subsequent event to salvation? |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:28 pm: |
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TATM - We obviously have a misunderstanding regarding our viewpoints, as to what occurs at the moment of salvation. I believe that a person that fulfills the requirements of salvation, as listed in Romans 10:9 (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.) is AUTOMATICALLY and PERMANENTLY indwelt by the Holy Spirit, as a earnest / guarantee of his/her salvation (Eph 1:13-14). Without the Holy Spirit's indwelling, one is not saved. Period. You've listed Romans 8:9 as a proof of this, and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
But why did the apostles Peter and John, both of who wrote (with the inspiration of the Spirit) Holy Scripture, not know this? Of course they did. So why were those identified as believers ("when they believed") baptized? Because they were born again. Philip baptized them after they were saved - and because they were saved, they HAD RECEIVED THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!
This is where you misunderstand my point of view. I can read verse 15-16 as well as you, which says, "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This, IMHO, is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, AUTOMATICALLY RECIEVED AT SALVATION. This refers to the baptism of the Spirit, the second work of grace. They were saved/indwelt, baptized in water - and THEN baptized in the Spirit. As I stated before, in every Scriptural reference to believers - indwelt by the Spirit - that are AFTERWARDS baptized in the Spirit - spiritual gifts are manifested. We are not told in the Acts 8 account specifically what gifts were manifested, but in verse 18, Simon "saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given". In verse 19, he asked for this power. Obviously, we cannot see the indwelling of the Spirit we receive at salvation - but he saw something.
In Acts 19, Paul baptized believers in water - who, according to Romans 8:9, MUST have been indwelt by the Spirit to be born again - and then laid hands, for them to receive the baptism of the Spirit. Two different things altogether.
To me, the indwelling of the Spirit, the sealing of our salvation, works in us to produce the fruit of the Spirit over a lifetime of following Christ. The baptism of the Spirit immediately produces power to be an effective witness for Christ. Peter was saved and indwelt in John 20:22, but fifty days later, at Pentecost, received the baptism of the Spirit. He then preached one sermon, and 3000 were converted. This is the power of the baptism of the Spirit.
BTW - Please leave out "tell me in which passage God lied" in future posts- I did not say that, not ever. |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:33 pm: |
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Regarding John Wesley - You're kidding, right?
I can find quotes from many preachers, both influential and obscure, justifying both our points of view. However, only God's Word should determine our doctrine, not another man.
And, I'm not a Methodist - to quote Seinfeld, "not that there's anything wrong with that..." |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:39 pm: |
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TATM - I just found your website - From briefly scanning it, I'm not sure if I'll agree with much... - but I'll read it.
Maybe it will give us more to discuss. I put my question on Luke 11:13 on three other forums, and although many read it, no one is responding. I hope it's not simply too boring... |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 123
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:55 am: |
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Mr. Mhead66:
We have nothing left to discuss. You just called God a liar. Our conversation is over. I will gladly discuss the Bible with someone who believes or disbelieves the Bible. But I will not engage a fool. |
arron
Intermediate Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 139
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.34.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 8:55 am: |
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well dont ever talk to your self tatm |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:39 am: |
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ATAM
I asked you not to put words in my mouth. Specifically, how did I call God a liar? You will not respond directly to the question, I'm wasting my time, I know. We have discussions on several different threads going, and you've never used Scripture to prove your points or disprove mine. This is coming from a person who claims to have read the Bible, cover-to-cover, 200 times. You respond with John Wesley and the evil of the founders of Pentecostalism.
I went to your website, and I understand you much better, now. If you read God's Word, you will see that (1 Timothy 3:16) ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. All Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness.
You said on your website: "We see that Acts of the Apostles chapter Two was written exclusively to the jew. We have proven that the book Acts of the Apostles is purely historical, as opposed to prophetic."
Really? Where is that, in Scripture - is Paul wrong, in writing to Timothy in 1 Timothy? Or are you JUDGING SCRIPTURE?
So sad. |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:07 pm: |
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Oh, yes - and, TATM - What do you think of Matthew 5:22, "...and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 132
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 7:40 am: |
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Mr. Mhead66:
When reading or quoting scripture, always look for KEY words. "brother" Matthew 5:22 |
mhead66
New member
Username: mhead66
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 69.34.217.28
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:23 am: |
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TATM - I quite agree - a brother is a fellow believer, and as I am born again, and I assume you also are, we are brothers in Christ. Thus, this verse applies to us. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Intermediate Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 143
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.208.12.98
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 7:46 am: |
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Mr. Mhead66:
Quoting: "we are brothers in Christ."
End quote.
That is the same thing Jim Jones said. It is also the same thing the Mormon church claims. It is also the same claim made by the Jehovah's Witnessess. Now guess what you all have in common? |
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