| Author | Message | ||
     purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.98 |
Hi, I came out of a pentecostal mind controlling church over a year ago and now it seems that my mother inlaw is still under their power. They use guilt and fear to get money out of your pocket with verses like malachi 3:10 KJV if you do not give 10@ of your money each week then you are cursed with a curse. Their are many other mind control methods they use that I still have not identified, yet but its like your trapped and still you do as they wish even though you know its not right, nor do they have to speak they just give you a look of displeasure. By they, I mean the pastor and his wife My wife and myself have been through the withdrawal period but still have much pain and physical & mental symptoms. Since my mother inlaw still is the treasurer and all she does is talk about them when she comes over, it still is a tie to that place. And brings my wife and myself much pain like salt on an open wound. It was pointed out to the Elders by the old treasurer that their was over 100 thousand dollars that he used of the churches money and wanted him to step down. He refused and most all the people stood up for the unjust man, I was confused. The elders left but many still stayed behind for it was almost impossible to think that he and his wife would do such a thing. My mother inlaw became their slave, pull their weeds, clean church and other slave jobs. They done it to others I heard through the years. She even agrees to the things that are wrong but still is under a spell to continue to let people control her. She told them last year she was resigning from treasurer, but sure as a bear poops in the woods she is still treasurer. I even called the IRS and spoke to an agent who confirmed that the way the money system was set up was illegal. I gave my mother inlaw the number and she said the person said that it sounds like your having problems with your pastor. And left it at that. She admits she seen where the pastor made the church pay for things that it should not have. It just so happens the pastor is the land lord so the church pays him rent on 2 buildings, which is not illegal except for IRS law states that in tax exemption that the pastor cannot be the only person nor his family that receives benefit from the monies taken for the church. NO ONE except him ever received benefit from the collections whether it is rent or salary. I have learned to be very careful of independant churches cause most of them have no oversight and think they can do what ever they want to, above the law. Now to the point, do we cut off my mother inlaw because she is a string that attaches us to that cult? She even sold her house in NY and rents an apartment 2 blocks away from the supposed church in PA. My wife and I thought she was moving closer to us but not true. My wife did speak with her last week face to face and said how she was hurting over their relationship, and it is nothing more then like beings friends at a church. But before my mother Inlaw moved to pa their relationship was healing from past hurts. My wife stressed to my mother inlaw how she changed and is not the same person anymore, in a bad way not for the better. I myself face a bigger problem, I was ordained a minister by that church. Will that be a block mentally? Just wondering. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Junior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. purification7: That is an interesting name and perplexing situation. My two cents worth? You need to see a mental counselor. Go to someone like this http://www.aacc.net/ Make sure whomever you choose is licensed to provide the services you need. You cannot find the help you are after on a message board. Your problem is not DIY. Your Ever humble Servant, Rev. Sandy Bryant DD. Counter-cult Apologist | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
purification 7 Best thing is to pray. Understand this you became a minister why because God called you or the minister called you into ministry? Understand your relationship with God does not always mean because of the situation you were in you did not have faith or knew God. Also does not mean you will be an cult minister because you were involved in that ministry. When God calls He calls you, God spoke to your heart. Other churches will accept you has a minister if you prove yourself and what I mean as others see your calling through your actions and deeds the people will allow you to teach and preach. But best to find yourself a good solid Bible believing church. As far as family keep praying for them they are still family. You must understand family must come to there own decision what a crooked minister this man is. Also it may take months for them to completely leave the church wants knowing the truth but pray that God will move them out into understanding what this man is. Have nothing more to do with that church yourself. I have been through it and still have some family trapped. Contact me through my site, \newurl {http://www.turtle30cshell.com,http://www.turtle30cshell.com} If I can be of further assistance. turtle | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Quoting: "Other churches will accept you has a minister" End quote. Jim Bakker is an excellent example. | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
ATAM take the fight with me elsewhere the thread i dedicated to you is fine. You are not being kind to someone that is hurting and your sarcasm doesn't belong here. You are no DD or minister with that attitude. I dont' care of jim baker thank you. But there are some good people that came even out of that situation because God reigned in their life. BAD ATAM dont' be a childish grow up. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
OOPS! I forgot Jimmy Swaggert. Peter Popoff. And ten thousand others. | ||
| dreama275 Junior Member Username: dreama275 Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 67.185.8.218 |
REV Sandy. Really don't seem to have it all together, hmm) Now I know what kind of people to look out .. Poeple like you . Thank you for the lesson  It's been fun.. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Ms. Dreama275: Don't look out for me. It is God you will answer to on Judgement Day. There is a massive difference in myself and those you have chosen as sidekicks. Not once have I demanded you bow to me. The Bible tells us all will bow their knee to Jesus. I am prepared. Are you? Really? | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.86.228.201 |
Thanks all for contributing to my healing:-) Thanks turtle for the encouragement and things to think about. I can say I been called of God since I was around 13 or so. I was going to a AOG petecostal church. Was nice but restrictive in dress and music. I played guitar and sang in churches most all my days as a believer. I was praise leader for a few years before my departure from the above mentioned church. It was not all bad, I seen many people healed delivered and set free. I seen my own leg grow out that was a few inches short and other healings in my wife and myself. That what is so confusing, the power of God was present through it all. I learned that no matter what a person/minister may be doing the Word is still going forth and those who believe will have whatsoever they believe. Its the adding to the Holy Bible and mixing and matching law and grace, and twist the scriptures to our own profit and doctrine that seems to be in the Church as a whole. Alot of good Churches started off great but became cults, using guilt,shame,anxiety techniques for profit. The Ministers of God have become nothing more then beggers. Instead of getting a job they want to feed of the flock. God is about people, He does not need money or buildings God is interested in people. No where is it written that you no longer have to work after becoming an minister. Many see it as employment which means that there paid to be our friends.Also Jesus said its the hireling that runs when they see the wolf coming. No where also did Jesus command us to build buildings which has exhausted the funds, that that the Church cannot even do Gods will which is to feed the poor and the widows and the fatherless and to give as each has need. I am not against giving love offerings and Ministers being blessed, but what about those who also labor in Jesus. We are all Kings and Priests but many put themselves about the the rest of the Body.And sad to report many pastors see it as a a business.Paul said he worked with his own hands to provide for himself. Granted there are many Churches that have their stuff together but on the most part I no longer believe in the Church behind building walls.I see an outreaching to community in the new testament, and out of the comfort zone which is in your own home. Jesus said there shall not be one stone left upon another. I believe that was the end of the religious legal system and He was creating a new system for a new covenant. Jesus was taken his own collections out side the temple for His ministry. And what were they doing with the money? You and I are Gods building. They went from house to house breaking bread daily. Even Holy Communion is broken down into a small matzo cracker and a sip of juice, when it was plain as day the last supper was called the last supper for a reason. Sitting every Sunday looking at the back of someones head and listening to one person preach for an half hour or so is not Gods Idea of Church by far. I still believe and operate in the gifts of the Spirit and been baptised in the HolyGhost. And my name Purification7 is from psalm 12:6 , TATM :-) So these are the things I been seeing in the scriptures and finding out what I believe and see God showing me. I asked Him to show me His heart and what He thinks and feels. I know that God will heal all my hurts in time but I can say I learned one thing trust no man as it is written. Trust Jesus, Gods Christ :-) He will never hurt you or me for He loves us so much. Thanks everyone for your support | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Pure: I recall dealing with a young man a few years ago much like yourself. He started a Bible Study in his backyard with his wife. After his study began to outgrow his house, he felt the call to the ministry. He rented his first store front building. Within a short time the church outgrew that building and moved to the second and third. When the previous group built a new building, the church family gave him a small church. That church went through three building programs before they were given a second larger church. After several more building programs, he built his own first church. Then he built the second and third new church buildings with a total membership of 16,000 in twelve years. I had a prison revival in their town and needed help with music. I invited his church to provide music during one night of the revival. His choir agreed to help. Since his wife was in the choir, he joined her at the revival. After listening to the sermon, he walked down the aisle to receive Jesus Christ as Lord. That night he realized God had never called him to the ministry. You mentioned being fluent with the charismatic “gifts.” Do you know the origins of those “gifts?” or That God has nothing to do with them? Can you find them in the Bible? I spoke with General Superintendent Woods some time ago now. He is or was the owner of the Assembly of God. I offered him any amount of money he could name to find the charismatic “gifts” in God’s (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages. Mr. Woods simply cried. There is gold in them there hills he knew he could never touch. I suggested you seek a licensed Christian counselor for good reason. The charismatic religion is a mind controlling cult. I will make the same financial arrangements with you as I did with Mr. Woods, if you have a Bible. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.130.223.91 |
Hi TATM, Thank you for your advice to see a licensed christian counselor. I was doing a search and came up with nothing in my area. well I am not here to debate. The HolyGhost is the giver of the gifts to those He wills. 1Cor 12:11 1Cor 12:7 it says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every person to profit all. 1 Cor 12:10 to one is given many kinds of tongues. Just because you never experience the manifestation of the HolyGHost does not mean it does not exist. Well I am not sure what bible you read but I suggest you buy one with all the pages in it. Second the modern translations remove the HolyGhost and replace Him with HolySpirit. The HolyGhost is the third person of the GodHead, and the HolySpirit is the Word. Another good starting place Mark 16:14-18 This is my beliefs, I did not come to debate. I understand your sincerity and I thank you, but there is no counselor on earth that can take away the gifts of the HolyGhost because God's gifts are irrevocable. And I dont want the HolyGhost or His Gifts to depart. The Gift of the HolyGhost Is for all generations. Acts 2:37-42 and this is the Apostles doctrine not laymen or Ministers doctrine. 1Corinthians 14:19,26,27 It is clear it is an unlearned tongue. This is my belief and you can believe what you will, but I will not debate God's Words since you seem to have your mind made up. Acts 14:22 are a sign for unbelievers. I know that there are still unbelievers in the world so there is more reason for the Gifts of the HolyGhost to abound even the more. I cannot denounce the HolyGhost or His gifts so dont waste your time thanks. For I did not receive the Baptism in the HolyGhost in a pentecostal church but by a Catholic Priest as a young boy, so go figure out that one lol Gods Best for ya, Purification7 | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Pure: It is not I who has their mind made up. Quoting: "Another good starting place Mark 16:14-18" End quote. I, personally, agree with John Wesley here. Mark 16:9 - 20 are simply not in the better manuscripts. If you force one to accept them, you must also reject them as they are singular in nature. The LDS Church has made a great doctrine of baptizing the dead. That, too, if you check is in scripture but one time. Take the time to really read 1 Corinthians 12 - 14. You will actually see St. Paul condemn 'tongues' no less than twenty-eight times. Read Acts again. The five times 'tongues' are mention unbelieving Jews were present. Are there unbelieving jews in your church? Read my post "The Origins of pentecostal Tongues." You will understand why you need help to get out of this cult. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.222.238 |
Hi TATM, 1- You still have not made your scripture point of making me an dollar offer to prove that the Gifts of the HolyGhost were and are given to the Christian Church and are for all generations that are and are to come. Acts 2:36-42 Again plainly written: 1Corinthians 14:29 Wherefore brethren, covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues. It is written in English and does not need to be interpreted. Many cults are started by people who failed English class, having poor education thereby not able to read and comprehend and make any sense of common English. I showed you many scriptures which instructed the Christian Church on operating in the gifts, so pay up lol. It seems that you are basing your information on what Wesley interprets for you,instead of what Jesus plainly said. That is how cults start. Your belief is based on other peoples opinions and your not thinking for yourself. I would consider a person is under a denomination mind control, for not basing their info on that which is already written and words spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. the word denominate means to take away. I am not into denominations. I am what ever Jesus is. The scriptures safety net for sound doctrine is that everything must be backed up by the 2 or three witnesses. Whether the prophets, Apostles or Jesus himself, in which case concerning the Baptism in the HolyGhost and the Gifts given to the Church will not end till all things be accomplished. Double or nothing: 1Corithians 14:18 Paul thanks God I speak in tongues more then you all 1 Corinthians 14:21 (King James Version) 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Triple or nothing Acts 19:5-9 Notice verse 9 Baptism in the HolyGhost is a different experience than salvation at the new birth. Acts 19:2-6 I am nothing but a servant of Christ and I don't claim anything but that God is good and loves people and wants to heal and restore all without price or guilt,shame and/or anxiety (mind reform) I hope this helped with understanding and respecting my Christian beliefs as I respect your religion. Peace and Love in the HolyGHost, Purification7 | ||
| ezekiel_37 Junior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 47 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.70.150.115 |
Hello all, May I give my opinion. Our Father is not a ghost, He is THE Spirit, ruach, pneuma.....air, breath of life, (trumpet) blast, not phantom, spook, ghost, apperition. A ghost is a untrue, makebelieve term. There is no such thing as a ghost, as all dead people go to be with the Father in Heaven...no one hangs around and exists. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So, He is not in any way shape of form, a ghost. Pneuma.... not a ghost. in His service c | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.130.218.93 |
Hi Ezekiel, the strongs concordance has many words for Pneuma by analogy or figurative a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implicaiton) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, dæmon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit :- ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare Greek 5590 (psuche). Only those who are born of the spirit of God and children under the age of accountability go to heaven according to the Christian doctrine. Those who believe not are condemned already john 3:18 Jesus finished His work and is seated at the right hand of the Father, the HolyGhost now has His ministry on earth Now. John 14:26 Matthew 27:50 Jesus yielded up the Ghost. Ghost being a spirit body. God is a Spirit has A spirit body and has a soul. As does the GodHead. The HolyGhost is the power of God and our comforter, and reveals all things to the believer. The information is based on written Christian doctrine of the Holy Bible not denominational sects. Purification7 | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Pure: I assume you are speaking of Charles Fox Parham, the inventor of your religion? Quoting: "It is written in English and does not need to be interpreted. Many cults are started by people who failed English class, having poor education thereby not able to read and comprehend and make any sense of common English." End quote. My religion is not the question. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
I thought God invented Christianity by anointing Jesus of Nazareth with the HolyGhost and with power, who went about doing good, healing all that were oppressed of the devil for God was with Him. Acts 10:38 I never asked you what you thoughts of my beliefs were. You are the one pushing your Religious beliefs down everyones throat, In which I believe you should be banned. What is your religion anyway, It cannot be Christianity since you even deny the Holy Scriptures are not the correct writings anyway, what is your belief? or whats left of it. I seen someone call you Rev. Who are you Ordained by anyway? If you don't believe the Holy Bible why did you become a minister? Or are you one of those self ordained internet pastors, who foam out of their mouth their own shame and ignorance, as evidence they are not sent from God, for God does not speak against himself. I wish I could say nice talking to you, but I can't cause knowing you for this short time is like a thorn in my side. You have not in anyway shape or form convinced me of anything except you are not born again of the Spirit of God. Not because you have no understanding concerning the Baptism in the HolyGhost but you don't speak as a true believer in Christ, my spirit don't bare witness that you know Him. I pray the scales would come off your eyes and God would allow you into His kingdom. No need to reply cause I am done here. I see this board is satans play ground, not because we have different beliefs which is cool, but I can feel satans presence in the writings of so called Christians that wouldn't know Jesus if He was standing right next to them. Again you would not know how it feels to operate in the HolyGhost cause you rebel against Him. It is one thing to not understand but to teach against the HolyGhost is not a smart thing to do. May God have mercy on your soul in the last day. Purification7 | ||
| ezekiel_37 Junior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 64.231.172.227 |
so, ghost is a mistranslation, where in it should be Spirit. Why people still use ghost is beyond me. The oldest manuscripts that we have say Spirit. All of them. I just think that regarding God as a ghost is not giving Him the respect that He deserves. ps. I use the Strong's Concordance aswell, and ghost is not the word at all. Ghost is however, only 'one' of the few words that 'Pneuma' has been translated to, even if improperly so. Still, to me using Ghost is showing a disrespect to our Father, for He is not a ghost, but is The Holy Spirit. The Breath of Life. in His service. c | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
I thought God invented Christianity by anointing Jesus of Nazareth with the HolyGhost and with power, who went about doing good, healing all that were oppressed of the devil for God was with Him. Acts 10:38 I never asked you what you thoughts of my beliefs were. You are the one pushing your Religious beliefs down everyones throat, In which I believe you should be banned. What is your religion anyway, It cannot be Christianity since you even deny the Holy Scriptures are not the correct writings anyway, what is your belief? or whats left of it. I seen someone call you Rev. Who are you Ordained by anyway? If you don't believe the Holy Bible why did you become a minister? Or are you one of those self ordained internet pastors, who foam out of their mouth their own shame and ignorance, as evidence they are not sent from God, for God does not speak against himself. I wish I could say nice talking to you, but I can't cause knowing you for this short time is like a thorn in my side. You have not in anyway shape or form convinced me of anything except you are not born again of the Spirit of God. Not because you have no understanding concerning the Baptism in the HolyGhost but you don't speak as a true believer in Christ, my spirit don't bare witness that you know Him. I pray the scales would come off your eyes and God would allow you into His kingdom. No need to reply cause I am done here. I see this board is satans play ground, not because we have different beliefs which is cool, but I can feel satans presence in the writings of so called Christians that wouldn't know Jesus if He was standing right next to them. Again you would not know how it feels to operate in the HolyGhost cause you rebel against Him. It is one thing to not understand but to teach against the HolyGhost is not a smart thing to do. May God have mercy on your soul in the last day. Purification7 | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 92 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
Sounds like someone's been taking their Dake's bible notes a little too seriously. God is Spirit. He doesn't have a "spirit body", He doesn't have a "soul". "Ghost" is simply Jacobean English which meant the living essence of a person. In that day "spirit" normally meant the essence of a deceased person or a demonic or paranormal apparition. so it was natural for the Authorized Version translators to use "Holy Ghost" for "Pneuma Hagion" since He is the very essence of LIFE. However, times have changed, and we haven't used "Ghost" in the same fashion in well over a century or more. As long as one doesn't derive the wrong inference, either "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" should be acceptable. It's when people start building odd doctrines around one word or the other out of ignorance that problems start. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
Then read it in German bible which says Ghost. I love Dakes Bible and I suggest you get one so you can learn from a man of God and not watered down doctrin of men and devils. I mean this in a good way not being a wise guy. I for all my posts have not used nothing but the Holy Bible. I cant say that for most that replied. THe truth is that everyone has their own belief system and all can be called cults. But I do believe as it is written, there is ONE LORD ONE Faith ONE Baptism. I am whatever Jesus is. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
The Word is the HolySpirit and the Power of God is the HolyGhost. In King James HolySpirit is where He is supposed to be and the HolyGhost is where He is supposed to be. I will not call any ignorant that may not have been taught this, cause we all are still learning. But you can check for yourself. Only modern translations changed the HoyGhost to HolySpirit. And if HolySpirit is the english translation for HolyGhost why does the German for one read HolyGhost? I dont think you will miss heaven beacause of it but it is written this is eternal life, to KNOW GOD and His Son Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Tune in next week, same time same channel, (Message edited by Purification7 on May 01, 2007) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 93 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
I read Dake's 20 years ago. Dake apparently couldn't comprehend the concept of metaphor and anthropopathism. This results in creating an idol, a god in man's image. I've explained "Ghost" and "Spirit" and you ignore it. Truth is not relative. Contradictory truth statements cannot both be equally valid. God is not a man. Jesus is the Eternal Son, eternally begotten of the Father, Co-eternal, Consubstantial. You, on the other hand, are not. | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
I am a bit curious about something said. Everyone claims Christ was annointed, Yes this is true but looking up the word annoint in the instance did not change the deity of who Christ already is. God annointed Christ as a sign to the people, John witnessed the annointing. But Christ was already God and fully human, before the annointing. How come some groups do not believe Christ was God before the annointing or did not have His God given ability til this time?? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 94 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
Purification, what difference does it make how it is translated in German? The Greek is (transliterated) Pneuma Hagion. "Pneuma" has its root in "pneo", "air" or "breath". It is where we get the word "pneumatic". "Hagion" is, of course, "holy", "sacred" or "consecrated". You've simply bought into a little Pentecostal scare mongering regarding the difference between "Ghost" and "Spirit". Don't get caught up in English renderings and let people with little or no knowledge of the original languages lead you down a dead end. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
Please back it up with the Word please thanks. On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, ALL else is sinking sand. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
I did. You can't read Greek, you're not really reading the Word of God, just a group of men's opinion as to what it means! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 97 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
Just to give you something to chew on out of the KJV, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) (John 7:38-39) See, here the translators use both "Spirit" and "Holy Ghost". But in the Greek, both "Spirit" and "Ghost" are "Pneuma" (Message edited by mcmstaff78 on May 01, 2007) | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
You did where??? I see no scriptures as usual around here. The blind seems to lead the blind around here. Just my Opinion if I am still aloud to have one on this Cult board. Which talk about mind control, most all of you are cult members. You are as blind as a blind person can be yet offer to show me the way is a hoot lol I am sure the maker of this board did not create it for your cult advertising and Mind control techniques as most of you practice. Forcing your warped doctrine down peoples throat as my pal TATM. Your doing the same as the cults are doing, not letting people have their own mind, you want to fill it with everything but the scriptures. And when you do interpret scripture you make things up and reason why you dont believe it or see words that are not there. I feel bad for ya all I really do. The only One that made sense or spoke to me like a Christian was Turtle. The rest of you need to repent of your sins and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior and get deliverance from your doctrine of devils. Devils have spirit bodies also. I only Claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ and the Christian Gospel, not the Gospel according to satan and mens traditions and denominations. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
How can anyone be "forced" by words? Words are used to persuade, dissuade, influence, educate, elucidate, obfuscate, etc., etc., but they can't "force" you to do something. I presented you with the Greek from the scriptures. Give me any NT passage which you think supports "Holy Ghost" and I'll show you it's "Pneuma Hagion" in the Greek. I've also given you specifically John 7:38-39. Since when are Dake's notes "scripture". He was just a man, and not a very well educated one at that. I just don't like to see someone making molehills into mountains and thinking when they climbed to the top they've done something. | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
Would a rose be rose by any other name would it still smell so sweet. Okay not good at quoting shakespeare but yo get my point I hope. Holy Spirit, HOly Ghost who are we talking about God the part that comes and lives in us and works in us in our daily lives as Christians. Is not a ghost a spirit in modern translation. Some just do not like the word ghost because it sounds spooky. Spirit sounds less spooky to some. So my point being most underatand and know both terms and we could fight all day on correct terminology. But here is my point If we know who the third person of the Trinity is and His role in the Trinity would it matter much if the word Ghost or Spirit is used by whomever??? I am not here to argue but I find this an interesting point in my head. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
Lets intepret this with the HOLYGHOST...... 1- He means anyone 2- already written in the Law 3- Belly is Spiritual Reality 4- Flowing rivers of Living waters = Gospel 5- It was speaking of the Gospel= Word = Spirit= Jesus 6- believing and receiving Christ Jesus 7- The Baptism in the HolyGhost was not given yet It is Only till One is Baptised in the HolyGhost can the HolyGHost take the Spirit= The Word= Jesus and make it/Him alive and flowing out of the believers belly, chosen vessels. 38He that believeth in Me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." 39(But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believe in Him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 6:63 63It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of GOD is Quick and Powerful and Sharper then ANY two edged sword.... How can the HolyGhost be the HolySpirit He was not given to men yet????????? till Jesus was Glorified?? Isaiah 63:10,11 10But they rebelled and vexed His holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them. 11Then He remembered the days of old, Moses and His people, saying, "Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He that put His holy Spirit within him, Something for you to chew on, and no I did not get this from dakes who never had this revelation as far as I know. Just me | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 44 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
Okay I hope I can explain this as well as I can. The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit was not involved with man in the since of the annointing or indwelling when Christ walked on earth, accept for like John the baptist and anna and simeon in Luke 2 or 3 can't think which chapter. But this was proof of who Christ was and is. The Holy Spirit was only given to some believers in old testamant not to all. But in New testament was given to all believers. The reason why not tell Acts because Christ had to die for us to make us worthy to have the Holy Spirit in us. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
Hi Turtle, Yes turtle I agree in a sense, if a person believes they receive the Baptism in the HolySpirit they are being baptised by God Regarless of terms. But much is lost with the modern translations other then King James. Most of the time it is the same meaning. Satan wanted to remove the HolyGhost from the bibles I truly believe for look at all the confusion with receiving the HolyGhost and the Gifts He gives without advance teachings. Many are still eating baby food never able to eat meat, but want to teach things they know not of which they will give an account of themselves and their teachings so I think it is pretty important. I never knew the difference till a minister did a teaching and my eyes opend up. I never saw the difference till it was pointed out to me. I dont believe knowledge will save us or gifts, for Jesus said many will in that day say Lord, Lord we cast out devils in thy name and prophesied and he said I never knew you depart from me you workers of iniquity. Its only by the Sacrifice of the Body of Jesus and His ressurection can we be sure of eternal life. How would you like people calling you mary when your name was sue? Its not the same is it? All it is Respect to the whole God Head Father,Son,and HolyGhost to call them as we been taught by Jesus. Jesus said when the Comforter which is the HolyGhost is come whom the Father will send in my Name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance whatsoever things I said unto you. Jesus by Himself can do nothing. It is the HolyGhost that takes fronm the Word and shows it to us. The HolyGhost can still talk to us from the outside but has to be asked in, like we did Jesus. If Jesus called Him the HolyGhost then who am I to call Him by another name? Peace out | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
Answer this if There is a Holy Ghost and a Holy Spirit then that would make four and not three adn that would be a whole new doctrine. God does not change whether old or new. The promises of God were revealed in New testament as hopefully it will be in our near future of His return. Now Father, Son, and Holy Spirit(Ghost)not Father, son, HOly Ghost and Holy Spirit. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 108 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.211.46.213 |
Honestly, I have no clue as to what you mean by anything you wrote in that post purification. Are you saying the Holy Ghost wasn't the Holy Ghost until after Pentecost? That God changed? John 7 clearly indicates "the Spirit" and the "Holy Ghost" are the same. The terms are interchangeable. As I wrote before, if you're not reading the Greek, you're not really reading God's word. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
Jesus is and was the Word- HolySpirit John 1:1 The Father is the Creator of All things The HolyGhost is the Power of God and our other Comforter besides the Word=Jesus Father Son and HolyGhost It is again because of the modern translations. If you read the King James it say HolyGhost and HolySpirit. THe modern translations replaced the HolyGhost with HolySpirit. Look at verses in the King James and you will see what I mean. Just as the example I gave in Isaiah how can God take the HolySpirit from them if they never were Baptised in the HolyGhost? They were under law and were baptised into the cloud. To be full and baptised is a horse of a different color. To fill a glass of water and Baptize a glass of water is not the same. As for Jesus blowing on them and they received the HolyGhost they were convicted not baptised. Jesus is the only one who was Baptized in the HolyGhost and Jesus is the Only one whom the baptism comes. a person is baptised into God when they repent second a person is baptised into the body of Christ though water Baptism Third a person is Baptised in and by the HolyGhost which is to receive the gifts of the HolyGhost as He will, but all believers receive the ability to pray in tongues and receive power to stop sinning. Does not mean that they can start a ministry. Remember Jesus said to the Apostles baptise them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and Of the HolyGhost Very simple when you accept what is written, it took a long time to get it straight after so many years of saying HolySpirit. God knows what we mean anyway but to say the HolySpirit is the HolyGhost is not true. Three persons yet agree as one. Thats what the word paraklete.it is almost impossible to seperate them, but they are seperate. John 1:33 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. God anointed the word with the HolyGhost acts 10:38 Dont hate the messenger | ||
| ezekiel_37 Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 64.231.172.227 |
as has been pointed out, the bible wasn't written in english or german. I don't know how much you (purification7) study on your own, but utilize a Strong's concordance, even online... and lool up in the greek dictionary = pneuma and in the Hebrew dictionary = ruach and then post what you have found. That is if you don't know already. God's Spirit has been here a LONG LONG time. in His service c | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
Numbers 11:24-27 KJV (24) And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. (25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. (26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. (27) And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. Judges 3:9-10 KJV (9) And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. (10) And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim. 1 Samuel 10:6-11 KJV (6) And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. (7) And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. (8) And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. (9) And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. (10) And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. (11) And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets? 1 Samuel 16:13 KJV (13) Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. All examples of the annointing of the Holy Spirit in the old testament. The Holy Spirit came upon them the same way has in the New testament accept they did not speak in tongues or have flame of fire over their heads. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Purification, as Ezekial_37 says. Please, you really are just displaying your lack of knowledge. You are correct, it is the translation, but in the Greek and Hebrew there is no difference between "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit". And it is not one word, e.g. "HolySpirit" or "HolyGhost", in the Greek it is two words, just like English, "Pneuma Hagion". Doesn't matter if you want to translate it "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit", the scriptures in the original language say exactly the same thing. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
Or another example God is a Spirit, those who worship Him MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. The HolyGhost is God and is a Spirit as the Father is God and is a Spirit and the Word is God and is a spirit. John 6:63 Think of an egg: If I ask you for an egg you give me the whole thing. Shell, egg white, yoke. To say the yoke is a shell and the shell is an egg white is not correct is it. But when I asked for an egg you gave me all three didnt you? When it says in Joel I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh : Well we know that God is a Spirit but which of the GodHead is He speaking of ? To say the HolySpirit would not be wrong because God is a Spirit and He is Holy. But it does Identify the person of the GodHead. In acts 2:14 18 14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:38,39 The Gift of the HolyGhost which Identifies the person of the GodHead that is giving the gift and is a gift from the Father. Now we know the Spirit is Speaking of the Baptism in the HolyGhost as in acts Chapter 2 Though the HolyGhost is God and is a Spirit He is called the HolyGhost which Identifies which person of the Godhead is doing the Work or wonder etc. But with Modern Translations there is no way to identify the GodHead if it all reads holySpirit. I am not confusing you, its the translations that confused you. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Intermediate Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 118 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Acts 2:38 "...and ye shall receive the gift of the Hagios Pneuma." I.e. "Holy Spirit". Sorry, you're still making a distinction without a difference just to bolster your Dake teaching that God has a body. Forget Dake. Get a bible with no notes and read it without Dake in mind at all. God will speak to you. | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 48 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
Ah I think i understand your problem. You do realize we have the Holy Spirit in us but we are in no way the Holy Spirit. The bible refers in other translations just the word spirit and is lower case representing our spirit. The Holy Spirit is always capitalized in refering to God. Capitatlization is important here. Does this make since. So when you put a distinction of a captial letter you get the same meaning either way. But when spirit is in reference to the human spirit it is not capitalized. It is the problem I have with NIV because often it says He or he in reference to God and not God which leaves confusion to who is speaking sometimes. turtle | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
I did not receive this from dake MCM, The Lord said that the Concordance does not replace the HolyGhost. He the HolyGhost is the revealer of the Word. Concordance's and other tools are great but it is Jesus that opens our understanding. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.150 |
I do not think I have a problem, nor are we the HolySpirit. Well when I went to school a person place or thing is Capital. When the scripture speaks of men its usually small cap spirit and when its large Case its referring to GOD, Spirit. We are sinners saved by Gods grace we cannot nor will we ever be God. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works. We have receive Gods inheritance, we are little jesus's, little anointed ones. That what the term Christian means. Big Brother Jesus is the Real Deal I must write in Chinese or something. lol | ||
| turtle Junior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.239.149 |
NO you dont' speak in chinese or i would not be able to read it. Maybe I should say perhaps that is not what others are getting. And no we are not God and I think the others know this as well. This discussion is much like the one that says the word fill and baptism is two different meanings. To be Baptized or to be filled, or to have the Spirit fall means the same thing. Yet often people want to confuse the meaning. Most fail to see in Acts 2 the word filled is used and in Acts one the word Baptized is used. Does this make sense. | ||
| purification7 New member Username: purification7 Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 4.174.133.86 |
Well I am taking a break from this subject. I apologize for getting caught up in the moment and If I disrespected any ones Ideas and/or beliefs or did not communicate the way I would like too at times. I do love you all regardless of your belief system. You have all made sense, and I was blessed by how you explained your take on the scriptures. Not what someone shows you but by spending time with Jesus I think is the best thing that can happen to someone. I did not, nor do I intend to shake anyones faith just wanted to share what I seen & learned concerning the HolyGhost/HolySpirit to open up the understanding of the Baptism in the Spirit. Did not go as well as I expected. Oh well i tried. The main thing for every person is to receive Jesus as there Lord and Savior trusting only Him for your salvation. Based on what He did, not your good works or gifts. We can not take credit for a Gift. All of you have good points and got me thinking as I hope I did you. I still believe what I believe concerning Gods gift of the HolyGhost and nothing will change that. It is good to get a stimulating conversation going, nothing does it like the Spirit Baptism, but It is a fine line between not understanding and denouncing the Gift of the HolyGhost and His Gifts. I dont claim to know everything nor am I perfect outside Jesus Christ. I just Love Jesus and want to help as many people as I can in my journey on earth. Purification7 | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Mr. Purification: What did Jesus Christ have to say about millstones? Are you really helping people by deceiving them? or Is it just a good source of cash? | ||
| mhead66 New member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
TATM - Sorry I keep addressing you directly in my posts, but you seem to say things that I find indefensible in Scripture. I don't mean it personally, though. Just to let you know. You said - You mentioned being fluent with the charismatic gifts. Do you know the origins of those gifts? or That God has nothing to do with them? Can you find them in the Bible? Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. You said - Take the time to really read 1 Corinthians 12 - 14. You will actually see St. Paul condemn 'tongues' no less than twenty-eight times. 1 Corinthians 14:18 - I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: How do you reconcile these verses, based upon your stated opinions? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 112 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
M(r)(s). Mhead66: READ EVERY TEXT IN CONTEXT WITHOUT A PRETEXT! "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Romans 11:26 - 29 (KJV) The exact text is Romans 11:22 - 32 (KJV). Thank you once again for providing an excellent example of how not to read the Bible. You are really good at this. Thank you. Please feel free to address me personally anytime. | ||
| mhead66 New member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
TATM - I could not agree with you more. All interpretation of the Bible must be in context. 1 Timothy 2:15 says, Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. We must rightly divide the Word, using it to justify our points of view. You are also correct, regarding Romans 11. I actually think that the entire chapter, verses 1-32, chiefly concern the nation of Israel and its continuing relationship with God, even during the Church Age. Verse 29, saying that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, chiefly refers to Israel's continuing position in the eternal plan of God. However, that does not mean that the words, the gifts of God are without repentance, cannot be applied to Church Age believers. It does not negate the following: 1 Corinthians 14:18 - I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all. 1 Corinthians 14:39 - Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:1 - Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 1 Thessalonians 5:20 - Despise not prophesyings. You said in your last post - Thank you once again for providing an excellent example of how not to read the Bible. You are really good at this. Thank you. How do I read the Bible, specifically the verses above, regarding spiritual gifts? What passage from the Word of God negates these passages? | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
tatm or rather his name he used to go under was not is strictly against pentecostals and me in particular i had it out with him when he was on before. he will probally deny it all even being not. but he hs it in for pentecostals he had a disappointing time with them so that is why he is so judgemental with us. he doesnt realize that not all pentecostals are of a fanatical mean breed. | ||
| mhead66 New member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
Arron - Agreed, that not all Pentecostals are "of a fanatical mean breed." I'm a Southern Baptist, but I believe as do you, that all of the New Testament applies to today's believers, that the baptism of the Spirit and His gifts are for today... I guess you could call me a charismatic baptist. What drives me crazy is legalism and judgementalism, people who condemn you if you don't believe as do they. 1 Corinthians 13 is the only chapter that Cessationists use to say that tongues have ceased, but they miss the entire point of the chapter: Love is the most important thing of all, to God! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 122 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. Mhead66: May I take but a moment to correct your superior knowledge? St. Paul condemned tongues twenty-eight times in ! Corinthians chapters 12 - 14. Again, please read the origins of pentecostal tongues. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
better read where he (paul) said forbid not to speak in tongues | ||
| bystander New member Username: bystander Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 72.29.59.187 |
Dr. Sandy Bryant aka TATM...I just ran across this site while searching for something else and I have to say...I never cease to be amazed at the lengths to which some people will go to try to discredit others. I am a life long and willing member of the Assemblies of God. I don't usually give second thought to these kind of rantings because it is impossible to "argue" with someone who has their mind made up. Let me just say that I am profoundly grateful to know the reality of the Holy Spirit and that your disbelieving it does not make it false. I wanted to address your April 30th post wherein you stated that you had spoken with and challenged "General Superintendent Woods who is or was owner of the Assemblies of God." There is not now nor has there even been a General Superintendent Woods. Thomas Trask is the current General Superintendent. George Woods is the General Secretary of the Assemblies of God. In that capacity, I scarcely doubt he would consider himself "owner" of the organization. If indeed you did speak with him and if indeed he did cry at your challenge, I dare say he cried for your closed mindedness and for all that he knows you are forfeiting by your disbelief. I can only say...Thank God for Pentecost. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Welcome M(r)(s). Bystander: May I quote you? Quoting: “ I don't usually give second thought to these kind of rantings because it is impossible to "argue" with someone who has their mind made up.” End quote. May I also add those here at the Apostolic Truth Ministries generally do not give second thought to these kind of ranting due to the impossible nature of dealing with the closed minded! We are also quiet careful what we say least we make fool of oneself by ranting in closed-minded fashion. Thank you sweetie. | ||
| mhead66 New member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
TATM - You've said that you are in a "ministry", delivering Pentecostals from the errors of their ways. Your website is supposedly for that purpose. I realize you endure some "attacks" on this forum, but if you are truly interested in serving God by serving men, with the love of God as your motivation, why do you attack others that ask you honest questions, that merely want to discuss their perspective on God's Word, as do I? Jesus said in John 15:17, "These things I command you, that ye LOVE ONE ANOTHER." How are your words, and the hateful words on your website, a demonstration of your love? | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
tatm apostolic trith ministries ha i doubt if it even exsist.. why dont you tell what your name nao and hy you dont use it and what you really believe about THE BIBLE not just about pentecost. how many others sare with you in your ministry.. you and you son? |
