| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
I was surprised a few weeks ago to see him back on national TV on the B.E.T. channel on Sunday evenings. Hadn't seen him since the 1980's. Has anyone else watched? Any comments? I know he failed morally, but I have to give him credit for continuing to preach the Gospel in what has to be an unfavorable climate for him. It takes a certain amount of courage, I think, to go on under those circumstances. | ||
| Anonymous (66.109.144.65) |
Has nothing to do with courage. Swaggart is a scumbag con man. He does serve a purpose -- something to laugh at. I thought that was so hilarious when he got busted with the prostitute. He went on TV and did the phoney water works - "forgive me Father, for I have sinned" sob, sob. HAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAA!!!! That was the greatest moment in scumbag TV preacher history. Always good for a laugh. I hope Falwell gets popped next, I'd love to see that turd go down. GOD | ||
| FRED (216.183.184.253) |
The money, which was meant for their ministry, went to maintain their extravagant lifestyles. Swaggart bought himself a US$ 1.5 million mansion. In his show of fatherly affection, he bought another mansion, worth US$700,000 for his son, Donnie with money loaned by his ministry. The Bakkers had bought mansions and luxury cars, even the doghouse was air-conditioned. CNN aired on Sunday November 2, 1997 a documentary about former Assembly of God Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart whose ministry net worth is one hundred million dollars and is run by the Swaggart family. Financial statements alone of the Jimmy Swaggart Evangelistic Association do not reveal the fact that Jimmy Swaggart, his wife and his son, earn over six hundred thousand dollars in annual salaries and drive a fleet of six Mercedes Benz. Jimmy Swaggart lied on camera when questioned by CNN about his salary. He stated he was not really drawing a salary although IRS records showed otherwise. It is a very sad state when prominent TV Evangelists such as Jimmy Swaggart who can shout, dance and preach better than the rest of them lie about their salaries and hide them. In addition the financial statements of JSEA do not reveal that Jimmy Swaggart Ministry loaned Jimmy 4.2 million dollars to build his fancy estate. | ||
| the lone gunman (172.168.233.6) |
The Jamacians loved Jimmy Swaggert so much, his day of infamy was mourned by the Jamacians flying their flags at half mast, and upside down, which didnt make a difference. | ||
| Anonymous (64.136.27.226) |
How old is he now ? its been 20 years since I last heard of him. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
According to several Internet sources, Swaggart was born on 15 March 1935, which means he will be 70 next year. | ||
| Anonymous (68.253.197.153) |
Jimmy Swaggert is a showman right along with his cousins that he grew up with Jerry Lee Lewis, and Mickey Gilley. After he was caught with the prostitute and he cried on tv he went right back and did it again with another whore. DO NOT send this guy any money no matter how much he cries. | ||
| Anonymous (68.253.197.153) |
Anon 66.109 I agree with you. As soon as they get rid of Falwell the better. | ||
| bk (66.248.101.40) |
to the measure you forgive, you will be forgiven. better polish up on your mercy, guys. Jesus did say he delights in that and gave the Pharisees a squalling out because they didn't understand in the Law that God delights in mercy.....and MERCY does truimph over judgment. Are you loving mercy? Doing justly? Walking humbly with your God? i used to watch him on tv while oversees myself. i thought something was wrong the way he'd knock any christian music that wasn't like his but i'd just pray for him. i guess i'd rather be a part of the love Paul talks about that believes all things, hopes all things. only God can judge the heart. forgive the man and pray for him. are their others? love covers a multitude of sins. i surely need it to cover mine. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
I agree with the last post. Jimmy Swaggart has been through a lot of public embarrassment (of his own doing, to be sure) and yet he soldiers on preaching. If it were me, I think I would have retreated to the comfort of my family and left the spotlight, but he believes he has a calling and is still pursuing it despite everything. I give him credit for persistence. How many of us, after 15 years, would even try to dig out of the pit we'd made for ourselves? Whether you think he's sincere or hypocritical (or just a human being), he's still preaching the Gospel, and that's what matters. | ||
| Anonymous (66.109.144.17) |
According to anonymous 198, "Whether you think he's sincere or hypocritical (or just a human being), he's still preaching the Gospel, and that's what matters." Do you really think that? A lier, thief, pervert, scumbag, con-man, greedy pig, fascist like Swaggart is ok just as long as he spews that xtian garbage that you want to hear? Do you think that a pig like Swaggart is superior to an honest and decent atheist? | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
I believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is salvation to all who are able to receive it. It doesn't take much more than the evening news to convince me that we are a species deeply in need of such salvation and redemption. We cannot save ourselves. In fact, we can barely restrain ourselves. At the same time, I respect the right of anybody to believe, or not believe, whatever they choose. If you are the "honest and decent atheist" (and I presume the phrase "Christian garbage" attests to this), then any arguments I make on the basis of the Bible, or the moral laws of the Judeo-Christian ethic, or any religious beliefs, will be rejected out of hand by you. So, I see no point in making such arguments. I would be careful before judging another human being as a "pig", however, or making claims of one's superiority to others. I believe that God judges the hearts of men, and that it is His place to judge, not necessarily ours. To me, Swaggart's weakness appears to be that he was a flawed human being and fell into sin, as I believe we all do. That doesn't excuse what he did, nor do I approve of everything Swaggart has said or done, but then, I am not the Person to whom I believe he'll have to answer in the end. It is not my approval that matters. As I said, I give Swaggart credit for continuing to preach the Gospel, 15 years after disgracing himself. It takes a certain amount of courage to even show one's face in public under that kind of condition. A lesser man would have given up long ago. Yes, I think that preaching the Gospel is what matters, even if a sinner is preaching it. All of us are imperfect, and those of us with faith are trying to find our way towards God. I believe there is one Way, but no one is forcing you to agree with me. Sorry you think it's garbage; I find it worthy of a more serious consideration, but I leave that to the apologetics folks. | ||
| Anonymous (172.203.68.167) |
It all depends on what his motive is. If he is doing it just for money. Then he is not worth listening to and will eventually lead others astray. This harms the body of Christ. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Swaggart usually offers a few products on his show (he's big right now on the Expositor's New Testament), but I don't see him begging for money as many others do. My point in starting this thread a dozen posts ago was that I was surprised to see him back on national TV again after so many years, and that it seemed pretty gutsy of him to do so under the circumstances. | ||
| Anonymous (66.109.144.17) |
I have read plenty of Christian apologetics. There still is not a single one of them who can provide any satisfactory answers to the basic problems with Christianity. I think it's sad that so many Christians (as well as adherants to other religions) are so bent on the idea that "preaching the gospel" is the "right" thing to do that scumbag con artists like Swaggart, Fallwell, Robertson, etc. get stinking rich when they should be in jail. Honest hardworking folks have to struggle to survive and most of them have enough integrity not to stoop as low as people like Swaggart. I don't think that Swaggart has ever spoken one honest word in his life. His reapperance has nothing to do with courage, it has everything to do with greed - he's a con artist doing the only thing he knows how to do - swindle people out of their money. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Well, I believe there are some "basic problems" with atheism - the first and most obvious being that creation demands a Creator, as far as I'm concerned - but let's not turn this into an apologetics site. I'm not likely to change your mind, and the reverse is equally true. Re: Swaggart, if you believe that the Christian message is wrong, then by your definition anyone who preaches it is probably a "con man". Or are there some Christian teachers you respect? My guess would be no, because you believe the message to be false. That's OK - you're entitled to your beliefs. And I agree: Honest hardworking folks do have to struggle to survive. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That's the way of the world, to be sure - but not the way Jesus taught, if I read my Scripture correctly. Does Swaggart belong in jail? Or did he simply fail to be a moral person? If moral failure is a crime, we're all going. Every single one of us. Pat Robertson? I agree with him less than half of the time, but I don't think that means he should be locked up. What about someone like Billy Graham, who is generally held in high moral regard even by non-believers? Other than the fact that you don't believe/like the message that is being preached, what's the offense? I watched Swaggart on TV in 1988 when he made his infamous "I have sinned" speech. He did not read from a script, although he may well have rehearsed thoroughly. He took the blame and he appeared to be sincere. Whether or not he indeed was, or whether it was just another performance from a master showman, who can say. Only God knows the heart of the man. I am reluctant to judge someone who has confessed his sin and professed repentance. And I stand by my comment about courage. To continue to appear in the public eye when you are certain to be scorned at every turn for your own foolish actions in the past; to pastor a church of a few hundred people when it used to consist of thousands and an audience of millions (surely humbling); to preach a message that was not very popular to begin with and which seems to be increasingly despised by the world - that takes guts, in my opinion. The Bible says that Christ went to His death on the cross "despising the shame". Scorning the shame, if you will; in spite of it. It seems to me that Jimmy Swaggart has continued to preach, despising the shame - his own. Enduring what was certain to follow. And I have to give him credit for that. Yes, there are charlatans (can someone say Robert Tilton?), but I think they are the exception and not the rule. Of course, I believe the Gospel message, so my perception is influenced by that belief. If I thought Christ was a fraud, I would surely think of all of them as con men. None of this excuses what Swaggart and others have done, many of them in the name of Christ (we can start with the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, if we're going to go down that road), but I am still glad that the Gospel is preached to all the world, even if it is by sinful men. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18). | ||
| STEVE (68.119.205.144) |
it was wrong for bro swaggert to do what he did and then to do it again.. but all have sinned and come short of THE GLORY OF GOD we should forgive him and go n and let him go on with his life after all is he doesnt stay faithful he has ONE to answer to .. JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD | ||
| Anonymous (67.171.86.186) |
Actually Steve, JESUS CHRIST set up his church aomong other reasons to be a means of accountability for Christians especaillly Christian leaders of whom Swaggart is. Swaggart thumbed his nose at this biblical accountabilty and went back to the pulpit, NOT out of some great sense of persistence but because he is a charlatan who knows he can still make a lot of money in spite of his sinfullness. He just has become more clever about how he markets himself now. Why on earth do you think Jewish people are so resistant to the gospel? After the holocaust, it is because of Christian leaders (phonies) like Swaggart. Wake up. He is not courageous. He is not a persistent soldier as someone posted. He is a charlatan in the most biblical sense of the word. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Well, we could argue about this all day, I suppose, and probably never agree. There's a bit of showman in Jimmy Swaggart, to be sure, but there's also a bit of that in Billy Graham (or at least there was in his younger days) and I think we should not confuse that with being a charlatan. The recent reappearance of Swaggart on national TV is the first I have seen of him in about 15 years. If he hasn't exactly spent those years in total obscurity, he seems to have spent them in rather diminished circumstances. Yes, he did thumb his nose at the elders and returned to the pulpit after a few months, as opposed to the two years they demanded. I'd say he's paid the price for that: Who has seen him for the last decade and a half, other than his much-reduced congregation in Baton Rouge? Jimmy Swaggart has never denied his sins (compare to Bill Clinton, for example); he confessed them openly (a long time ago), he took full and personal responsibility, and I, for one, am willing to give the guy another chance. Again, only God can know what is in a man's heart. And I am glad the Gospel is preached, for whatever reason. Thanks for the dialogue. | ||
| Cogger (209.86.142.62) |
Personally, I don't see any thing wrong with having your doghouse air conditioned. But the thing I would like to know, is what percentage of the tithes and offerings actually go into the preacher's pocket. In the church that I am in now, a very small one, 90% of the tithes go into the pastor's pocket, making him receive a meager salary of about $500 a week. | ||
| Cogger (209.86.142.62) |
All I know about the situation with Swaggert is BOYS WILL BE BOYS, MEN WILL BE MEN. By that, I mean that sin and temptation is allways at the door, and most of us will sin if the right stimulous comes along. That is the reason the Lord's prayer says "lead us not into temptation." | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
"For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." Jimmy Swaggart behaved foolishly, but mostly, he just proved he was a fallen human being like the rest of us. And it was the Bakkers who air-conditioned the doghouse. | ||
| Anonymous (69.208.210.196) |
We must remember Swaggert didn't come out and admit his sins. Swaggert had no choice he was caught at it. Then after his waterworks show on tv about how sorry he was he went and did it again, again he did not admit and again he got caught. I have a real hard time trusting this guy. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Yes, he was caught. And it was retaliatory in nature - a minister that he had denounced for a similar reason caught him. But he took full and personal responsibility for his actions. The fact that he did it again, after such a public disgrace, indicates to me that it was a terrible weakness of his (or temptation, or addiction, pick your word) and he had trouble resisting it. No person would DELIBERATELY do it again under the circumstances, no? TV has showed that "waterworks" moment over and over again, but I encourage you to find his whole public apology (the text is online somewhere) and decide for yourself if he was being honest and sincere and if he expressed the proper accountability for his own actions. I understand your reluctance to trust, but we're all sinners. Don't be reluctant to forgive and restore. We Christians seem to be first to put someone in the penalty box permanently, and it's a poor witness to the world. Don't forget how King David fell with Bathsheba. He repented, and he suffered for his actions, but he went on with the work of God. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Here's the text of Swaggart's public apology, in case you're interested. Reverend Jimmy Swaggart: Apology Sermon delivered 21 February 1988, Family Worship Center, Baton Rouge, LA Everything that I will attempt to say to you this morning will be from my heart. I will not speak from a prepared script. Knowing the consequences of what I will say and that much of it will be taken around the world, as it should be, I am positive that all that I want to say I will not be able to articulate as I would desire. But I would pray that you will somehow feel the anguish, the pain, and the love of my heart. I have always -- every single time that I have stood before a congregation and a television camera -- I have met and faced the issues head-on. I have never sidestepped or skirted unpleasantries. I have tried to be like a man and to preach this gospel exactly as I have seen it without fear or reservation or compromise. I can do no less this morning. I do not plan in any way to whitewash my sin. I do not call it a mistake, a mendacity; I call it sin. I would much rather, if possible -- and in my estimation it would not be possible -- to make it worse than less than it actually is. I have no one but myself to blame. I do not lay the fault or the blame of the charge at anyone else's feet. For no one is to blame but Jimmy Swaggart. I take the responsibility. I take the blame. I take the fault. Many times I have addressed the media in a very stern manner, and I have chastised them for what I thought and believed was error in their reporting or their investigation even. This time I do not. I commend them. I feel that the media, both in print and by television, radio, have been fair and objective and even compassionate. Ted Koppel on "Nightline," I feel, did everything within his power, in going the second, third, fourth, fifth, tenth mile to make doubly certain that what he reported was at least as fair and as honest as he, the spokesman for this world-famed news program, could make it. And I thank him for his objectivity, his kindness, and his fairness. And I also want to express appreciation to the entire media everywhere, but especially here in Baton Rouge -- Channels 9, 2, and 33, the newspapers, the radio stations. They've been hard, but they have been fair. They have been objective and at times, I believe, they have even been compassionate -- even my old nemesis, John Camp, that we have disagreed with very strongly. And I love you, John. And in spite of our differences, I think you are one of the finest investigative reporters in the world -- and I mean that. I want to address myself as best as I know how to those that I have wronged, that I have sinned against. First of all, my wife, Frances -- God never gave a man a better helpmate and companion to stand beside him. And as far as this gospel has been taken through the airwaves to the great cities of the world and covered this globe, it would never have been done were it not for her strength, her courage, her consecration to her Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ. I have sinned against you. And I beg your forgiveness. God said to David 3,000 years ago, you have done this thing in secret, but I will do what I do openly before all of Israel. My sin was done in secret, and God has said to me, "I will do what I do before the whole world." Blessed be the name of the Lord. God could never give a man, a father, a minister of the gospel, a finer son than he has given me and his mother -- Donnie and my beautiful and lovely daughter-in-law, Debbie. Donnie has stood with me. I have relied upon him. And in these trying days, his mother and myself, we do not know what we would have done without his strength, his courage, and his utter devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. Donnie and Debbie, I have sinned against you and I beg you to forgive me. To the Assemblies of God, which helped bring the gospel to my little beleaguered town when my family was lost without Jesus -- this movement and fellowship that ...has been more instrumental in taking this gospel through the...night of darkness to the far-flung hundreds of millions than maybe in the effort in annals of human history. Its leadership has been compassionate and kind and considerate and long-suffering toward me without exception, but never for one moment condoning sin, both on the national level and this esteemed district level. But to its thousands and thousands of pastors that are godly, that uphold the standard of righteousness, its evangelists that are heralds and criers of redemption, its missionaries on the front lines...holding back the path of hell -- I have sinned against you and I have brought disgrace and humiliation and embarrassment upon you. I beg your forgiveness. This church [Family Worship Center], this ministry, this Bible college [Jimmy Swaggart Bible College], these professors, this choir, these musicians, these singers that have stood with me on a thousand crusade platforms around the world, that have labored unstintedly [sic] and tirelessly to lift up that great name of Jesus Christ, to tell the weary that He is rest, and the sin-cursed that he, Jesus, is victory, my associates -- and no evangelist ever had a greater group of men and women, given by the hand of God -- have stood with me unstintedly [sic], unflaggingly. I have sinned against you. I have brought shame and embarrassment to you. I beg your forgiveness. To my fellow television ministers and evagelists, you that are already bearing an almost unbearable load, to continue to say and tell the great story of Jesus' love, I have made your load heavier and I have hurt you. Please forgive me for sinning against you. And to the hundreds of millions that I have stood before in over a hundred countries of the world, and I've looked into the cameras and so many of you with a heart of loneliness, needing help, have reached out to the minister of the gospel as a beacon of light. You that are nameless -- most I will never be able to see except by faith. I have sinned against you. I beg you to forgive me. And most of all, to my Lord and my Savior, my Redeemer, the One whom I have served and I love and I worship. I bow at His feet, who has saved me and washed me and cleansed me. I have sinned against You, my Lord. And I would ask that Your precious blood would wash and cleanse every stain, until it is in the seas of God's forgetfulness, never to be remembered against me anymore. I say unto you that watch me today, through His mercy, His grace and His love, the sin of which I speak is not a present sin; it is a past sin. I know that so many would ask why, why? I have asked myself that 10,000 times through 10,000 tears. Maybe Jimmy Swaggart has tried to live his entire life as though he were not human. And I have thought that with the Lord, knowing He is omnipotent and omniscient, that there was nothing I could not do -- and I emphasize with His help and guidance. And I think this is the reason (in my limited knowledge) that I did not find the victory I sought because I did not seek the help of my brothers and my sisters in the Lord. I have had to come to the realization that this gospel is flawless even though it is ministered at times by flawed men. If I had sought the help of those that loved me, with their added strength, I look back now and know that victory would have been mine. They have given me strength along with the compassion of our Savior in these last few days that I have needed for a long, long time. Many ask, as I close, this: will the ministry continue? Yes, the ministry will continue. Under the guidance, leadership and directives (as best we know how and can) of the Louisiana District of the Assemblies of God, we will continue to take this gospel of Jesus Christ all over the world. I step out of this pulpit at the moment for an indeterminate period of time and we will leave that in the hands of the Lord. The Bible college of these young men and young ladies whom I have tried to set a standard for and have miserably failed, its most esteemed president, Ray Tresk -- I, too, beg you, the future pastors, evangelists and missionaries, to forgive me. But this Bible college will continue. I close this today with the words of another man that lived 3,000 years ago -- and I started to say who committed sin that was worse than mine, but I take that back. And if the Holy Spirit will allow me to borrow His words, I will review that which is as real now as when it was penned in Jerusalem: Have mercy upon me, O God. According to thy lovingkindness; according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies, blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions; and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight, that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desireth truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden parts thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken my rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desireth not sacrifice; else would I give it; thou delightest not in a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion; build thou the walls of Jerusalem. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and with whole burnt offering; then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. [Psalm 51] Thank you. Thank you and God bless you. | ||
| Anonymous (64.136.27.226) |
That was a great message ! | ||
| Anonymous (217.157.116.249) |
And long! I think there's enough bullocks offered on that alter already, 198. | ||
| umike (216.244.6.16) |
Jimmy has published an instructive book on how to speak in tongues. Pretty shifty, if you ask me. Michael Greenberg | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Yes, that was a long message, but not as long as the crossposting about "Islamic Fundamentalism" that followed it! (I hope the moderator will get on that person's case; he/she/it appears to have posted it under every subject line on the board.) My point in posting the Swaggart apology was that it seemed to be a very sincere one. I am sure he chose his words carefully, but he didn't read the darn thing from a script. Bill Clinton and some others could have learned a few things from that apology. | ||
| WALTER (68.119.37.147) |
TRULY JIMMY SWAHHERT HAS REPENED OR AT LEAST SEEMS TO HAVE PEOPLE SHOLD JUST LEAVE HIM ALONE AND LET HIM GO ON AND SERVE THE LORD | ||
| Anonymous (69.208.208.62) |
Jimmy Swaggarts apology does seem sincere however he gave this apology after he was caught with the whore. After he went on tv and apologized he did it again and was caught again. I will have to wait and see how Jimmy acts in the future before I believe him a second time. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Interestingly enough, long article in Swaggart's magazine (The Evangelist) this month repudiating the doctrines of the so-called prosperity gospel. My respect for him grows. | ||
| 88 (65.67.238.147) |
Fred- Air conditioned dog house?? Are you sure you don't mean Jim Baker? Anyway I do see signs of showmanship in Jimmy Swaggart but I love to listen to Son Life Radio to hear Francis and John and Mike and Jim Nations talk about the Government of 12 and the Seeker Sensitive and Church Growth Movemtnt and the New age doctrines that are taking over the churhes everywhere. So I listen and did my own research and I learned why my church was changing. So even if you can't stomach Jimmy S. Don't discredit that show on Son Life from 9-12 M-f am and pm You can learn more than you do at your churches Unless that is you tune in on a day they are trying to raise money :} And Fred? Do you have the addresses to those mansions? I would like to call and see who is on the tax roles. | ||
| Anonymous (65.13.189.216) |
Bro. Swaggart is by no means my fovorite preacher. I do however admire his passion and tenacity. My question is what if he or anybody else wants to put a/c in their dogs kennel? Hunting dogs are worth their weight in gold in Louisiana and some folks go to extreme to keep them healthy. Maybe that is why. | ||
| Anonymous (65.13.189.216) |
I guess if I had to chose one form of meeting over another, I would choose house meetings. The reason is is because there is no overhead for the congregation to bear and it is less informal. I am not much of a traditionalist. To me though, as long as people gather for the right reason in His name, the place is irrevelant. To each his own I guess. | ||
| 88 (66.142.26.13) |
106-Thank you. I had never seen his apology I was wondering if he had. and it is ok to post it since this board is about JS and not Islam | ||
| Anonymous (65.230.211.125) |
I think Swaggart started out in very humble circumstances during the depression (his childhood years)and seemed to be on fire and sincere during all those years he and Frances struggled just to survive, and I have to admire him for that. But, like most of us, when the right set of circumstances came along, it was easy for him to create his own comfort zone. Like most televangelists and Word of Faith ministries, everyone running the thing is immeadiate family and/or in-laws of some kind. Let's face it, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even in many so-called Mega Churches, the "board of directors" is just a bunch of yes-men who are just there for show ! In both scenarios, these guys can do absolutely anything they want to do without any opposition whatsoever. Then, on top of it all, they start to believe their own press! As it syas..."Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." | ||
| Glen Converse (205.188.117.20) |
Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart Threatens To Kill Gays by Jan Prout Posted: September 20, 2004 12:02 am ET (Toronto, Ontario) A Canadian television station has apologized publicly to viewers for a telecast of American evangelist Jimmy Swggart's television program in which he threatened to kill gays. The program, aired last week on Omni 1, a Toronto multicultural station, and throughout the US, has also prompted an investigation by the Canadian Radio Television Commission, the government agency which regulates television. During the program, a rambling sermon by Swaggart who is trying to rehabilitate himself after an arrest for soliciting a prostitute, the televangelist turned to the subject of gay marriage. According to a transcript of the program, Swaggart said: "I'm trying to find the correct name for it ... this utter absolute, asinine, idiotic stupidity of men marrying men. ... I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry. And I'm gonna be blunt and plain; if one ever looks at me like that, I'm gonna kill him and tell God he died." The remarks were met with applause from his congregation. The program was taped at Swaggart's ministry in New Orleans where voters Saturday agreed to amend the Louisiana constitution to bar same-sex marriage. The CRTC investigation was prompted by a complaint by a viewer in Ottawa. It is not known if any complaints had been made in the US where the show appears on stations in all 50 states. A spokesperson for the FCC which regulates television in the US did not return calls for comment Sunday. Toronto station Omni 1 reviewed the tape after a complaint was made. A spokesperson called the remarks "a serious breach" of Canadian broadcast regulations. Omni 1 is owned by Rogers Communications a conglomerate that controls the largest cable and cell phone companies in Canada and also owns television and radio stations and a publishing company. Under Canadian law hate speech is a criminal offense. Broadcast lawyers say that both the station and Swaggart could be charged in addition to any penalty imposed by the CRTC. The FCC has wide powers for imposing fines. Last month the Commission fined 20 CBS television stations more than $25,000 each over the Janet Jackson bare breast incident at the Super Bowl. In 1987 Swaggart in a tearful sermon begged forgiveness from his followers after being found with a prostitute | ||
| Anonymous (64.255.96.72) |
I wonder if he'd have said he would kill a Christian if that would be "hate speech" as defined by Canadian law........ | ||
| Anonymous (65.230.211.22) |
I think it is more than obvious that this was just a mere attempt at humor on Swaggart's part.I'm sure there are plenty of folks who did not find it amusing! I believe that if engaged in a SERIOUS conversation on the subject of homosexuality, he would have given the right spiritual perspective on it, because he knows very well that God still loves these peopoele, and that they are not the originators of these tendencies (many things contribute to it- many times being molested or abused in childhood, and all kinds of things). To think that Jimmy swaggart was seriously threatening to kill anyone is absurd ! | ||
| Anonymous (64.255.96.72) |
What?!?! You don't suppose the media gave a biased report do you? They're usually so fair and balanced when it comes to Christianity! | ||
| Anonymous (205.188.117.20) |
Just my opinion: I saw the telecast in question. It was clear that he was making a one-liner, and that's why the audience laughed and applauded. Jimmy Swaggart may not like homosexuals, but he obviously had no intention of "killing one and telling God he died." I understand why some gay and lesbian groups took offense, and this was certainly not the best or most tasteful thing he could have said, but it WAS meant as humor. | ||
| Anonymous (65.69.85.173) |
I too saw the video footage of this!! Basically....Jimmy is about as smart as a Brick. And he demonstated to the world, YET AGAIN, that he has no UNDERSTANDING of the True Heart of God. Or of the Love of God for that matter. He wouldn't know God if he walked up to him and smacked him in the head. He seems to be in Love with himself and his ministry....content in his own little world of delusion. As a christian I was totally ashamed to see someone that calls himself a pastor utter those words. And remember...."for out of the abundance (overflow) of the heart his mouth speaks. " Luke 6:45 What does that say about your heart Jimmy? Time for a transplant? Time to retire? It's time to get real!! | ||
| Anonymous (65.69.85.173) |
And to Anonymous (64.255.96.72), If you watch the footage and see it in context it's as plain as day that he made another big boo-boo. Media bias is no out here....watch it for yourself. He's not teaching the Word or anything. He went off on a rabbit trail, venting and started talking from his flesh. Clearly! He screwed the pooch himself on this one. So Shameful. | ||
| Anonymous (69.143.68.103) |
First of all, I am a Christian. Having said that, I have HUGE issues with the mentality that any sort of behavior is excusable as long as the Gospel is being preached. I am dealing with a situation where the pastor has embezzled money, had NUMEROUS affairs, and committed several other offenses, yet much of the congregation still supports him all because he's "preaching the Gospel". I know of people on death row in prison that are some of the best Christians around. I know that God has forgiven them. Should they be released from prison because they're preaching the gospel? I strongly believe in sharing the Gospel, but far too many people hide behind it to justify their immoral, greedy, or criminal behavior. Further, this belief by Christians (it's "all good" as long as the Gospel is being preached) enables these charlatan ministers to abuse believers and often keeps these believers quiet since they think speaking out against the pastor (a man) is speaking out against God. Check out the Greater Grace World Outreach thread for more of this. (Information for newcomers) Boss Martian | ||
| Anonymous (69.143.68.103) |
The other thing I don't understand is this burning desire to pastor a church at all costs. Grow the church at all costs! Whatever happened to having a personal relationship with God? Boss Martian | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.117.20) |
It was a stupid comment on his part, no doubt about it. And it didn't even need to be made. It was apparently just an ad-lib in the middle of his sermon. Got him in the news again, though, didn't it? As for the "excusing behavior" post - if they repent, we should forgive them. That doesn't mean you don't keep an eye on them, or that they are automatically restored to whatever position they had before. What was it Reagan said about the Russians during the arms race? Trust, but verify? | ||
| Joseph A. Welch (68.11.160.243) |
Let's leave Bro. Swaggart alone for just a minute. I have a question for all who may view this site. Have you applied the blood of Jesus Christ to the doorpost of your heart? Do you know for certain that if you died this very moment where you would spend eternity? If no is your answer, just ask Jesus Christ to come into your life and save you. He loves you and if you are sincere, He will. God bless you. | ||
| Anonymous (66.81.153.48) |
Jimmy Swaggert has Always been in it for the Money & Noterity. After he was caught with the prostitute and he cried on TV, "...I have sinned...sob, sob...- No matter how much he cries, don't ever send Jimmy Swaggert or his son, any of your money. | ||
| Anonymous (69.242.21.100) |
at least he repented openly ,plus thats way back in the 80's ..just Pray for him and his ministry | ||
| Anonymous (68.90.67.162) |
He MAY have repented but he was never restored by God back into the work of His ministry.....He restored himself into his own little ministry.....and that's what it's all about. It's all about Jimmy. | ||
| SUE (216.183.184.253) |
I AGREE DONT EVER SEND THEM ANY MONEY | ||
| Anonymous (69.242.21.100) |
oh ok isee what you mean ,. when a leader sins or compromises he should step down and seek Godly counsel before ,if ,being restored.. thats the problem with one-man show/church ..there is no accountability or eldership to ensure intergrity in the ministry if a leader falls | ||
| Anonymous (68.90.67.162) |
Precisely! Well said 69.242.21.100 | ||
| Joseph A. Welch (68.11.160.243) |
How long do you "critics" think it takes for God to restore a man? It was 15 years ago for crying out loud! Get over it! Bro. Swaggart has, and according to 1 John 1:9, so has God. I'm curious as to how many of you are sinlessly perfect. It's easy to cast judgement on someone who's sin was exposed. But the truth is we all need God's mercy each and everyday. | ||
| Joseph A. Welch (68.11.160.243) |
69.242.21.100, I strongly disagree with your position. Given the fact that the Bible is the final authority for the Church, I will support my position scripturally. Why don't you take a look at 1Tim.2:5, Rom.14:4. How can man be accountable to man if we're all sinners? Rom.3:23 | ||
| Anonymous (68.72.171.204) |
Jimmy says that GoD told him to drive the prostitutes out of Baton Rouge... But He didn't mean DRIVE THEM OUT OF BATON ROUGE.. IN YOUR JAGUAR! | ||
| heartfelt (heartfelt) New member Username: heartfelt Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
We Who Are Christains Are Supposed To Restore A Brother Or Sister Who Has Fallen With A Spirit Of Meekness. Only For The Grace Of God Our Falterings And Failers Have Not Been Plastered All Over The Media.Even Peter Who Had Walked And Talked With Jesus Face To Face Failed Him Even After The Lord Told Him He Would. But Peter Told Him Not I Lord Ill Never Deny You. Look AT Peter After He Went Out And Repented And Wept Bitterly,His Shadow Just Falling Across The People And They Were Healed. We Need Not TO Be To Quick To Critisize Our Brothers And Sisters Failers,Satan Always Has One Of His Own Sitting On Ready To Point A Critical Finger At Christains Falterings. Let Us As Christains Be Able To Forgive And Restore With Love.My Prayers Go Out To Brother Swaggert And His Family. We Can Never Ever Imagine The Torment Of Mind He Has Had To Endure. Let Us Show A Little Compassion.The Gifts And Callings Of God Are Without Repentence,And He Can No More Quit Preaching Any More Than He Can Stop Breathing. Unless A Person Is Truly Born Again Youll Not Be Able To Understand That.I Pray That God Strengthens And Sustains His Family.We As Christains Should Bind Together And Pray For Him. I Pray That All Is Well! All Is Well!Can Be Said Of The Swaggerts Family And Ministry. May God Bless Them And Keep Them. | ||
| nc_musician (nc_musician) New member Username: nc_musician Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.214.179.221 |
I saw Bro. Swaggart a few years ago bash other Ministers on National TV about laying hands and people rolling on the floor in the spirit and after that I had no feelings for him as a Minister at all.If you can stand there and bash others how can you lead me?The blind can not lead the blind.And God does not have to ask you if it's alright to slay you in the spirit.God is God all by himself and he does not need your permission or advise.He really disappointed me.I thought as a Minister he should at least respect others in the Ministery. | ||
| brothersm (brothersm) New member Username: brothersm Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Greetings all in Jesus Christ holy sinless name and merry upcoming Christmas. I do see brother Swaggart is being attacked by some here.I would say to him or her without sin to keep casting stones. What matters here is the message that the brother is preaching and its the Cross that is foolishness to those perishing but unto which are saved its the power of God.{1st Corinthians 1:18. Which of us if our hearts were openly revealed would actually measure up to Gods standard?{Romans 3:23For all have sinned,and come short of the glory of God. Many preachers today are not preaching the Gospel of salvation-deliverance-healing ect but a greedy green gospel that is able to save noone. Brother Swaggart is pushing to gospel by Son Life Radio and it cost money for each station that goes on the air.[1].The purchase of land.[2].Communication buildings.[3].Radio towers ect. A Preacher is to be measured by the Word of God and the message he preaches.Something to consider. God bless you all in Jesus name. Brothersm.}} | ||
| mayrayah (mayrayah) New member Username: mayrayah Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 151.199.51.29 |
when listening to a sermon or reading any book if you can't look in the bible and find it here then say it is hear say or heresy | ||
| eightyeight (eightyeight) Junior Member Username: eightyeight Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.67.239.107 |
If anyone listenes to Sonlife and is in Midland then I would love to hear from you. We listen to Francis and the others but we would like to meet others who are like minded. It is hard to find a church that is both Holy Ghost filled and still has reverence for the Word of God. cmnbv@sbcglobal.net | ||
| johncolo_springs (johncolo_springs) Intermediate Member Username: johncolo_springs Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.64.160.93 |
I listen to SonLife via the internet and I live in Colorado Springs. --good stuff, I hope... | ||
| clay777 (clay777) New member Username: clay777 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
I am truly amazed what people think they know. And how quick they are to tear apart another human being simply because they don't like him or the message that he preaches. Where is the love in that? As far as the money issue goes, those on this site who think and say otherwise should do a little research before 'thinking' that they know anything. Jimmy Swaggart has sold over 15 million albums on his own accord. I think that gives him the right to live in a mansion if he wants to. I've never heard people ask why movie stars live in such big houses and drive fancy cars? Jimmy is already a millionaire in his own right, aside from anyone giving money to him or to his ministry. I guess Jimmy seems like an easy target for those who don't like him or the message he preaches. If he were just a musician I'm sure he wouldn't draw any fire for driving a nice car. But the fact that he mentions the name of Jesus promptly calls for critics to denounce him and question the finances of his ministry. Did you know that he signed over all of the proceeds from his records to his ministry? I'd say giving up 15 million in record sales is no small thing. So what if he drew a salary from his ministry? It costs to live on this earth and earning 15 million by himself, he should be able to live in what he wants, drive what he wants and wear what he wants. I've heard him relate this story a couple of times. He was wearing a pair of alligator shoes that had been given to him. Someone walked up to him and said that they didn't think he should be wearing shoes like that etc... I love his reply, he said "I think they look as good on my feet as they would on yours." Number one, this person probably assumed that he spent 'ministry' money on those shoes when he didn't pay a nickel for them. Number two, being a preacher doesn't mean living in a dirt floor house with no roof. Jimmy Swaggart and his ministry have helped more people, built more schools, built more hospitals, fed more people and won more souls to the Lord than any probably almost any other ministry. | ||
| johncolo_springs (johncolo_springs) Intermediate Member Username: johncolo_springs Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.64.160.93 |
clay777 --pretty good post above. You know what is interesting? The "Word of Faith" movement and it's message is totally infiltrating Christianity in so many subtle forms today with it's prosperity gospel and it's "name-it-and-claim-it" message, popularized by Kenneth Copeland and his followers. Well, here's what's interesting. Jimmy Swaggart and his church and radio broadcast are among the very few still left in Christianity who are taking a bold stance against this prosperity message, preaching against it as heresy and gross error, and are actually being persecuted for it. So, maybe people should call or write Jimmy and ask him personally if he is setting and example that corresponds with his stance, and see just exactly what kind of lifestyle he does live. They may be surprised if he fell somewhere in the mid range of those in the Baton Rouge area or even lower. Someone with courage here, please check and let us all know--thanks!! | ||
| revryan (revryan) New member Username: revryan Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.137.3.9 |
I have read many of the posts on many of the topics here, and I recently "rediscovered" JSM. I remember, as a young boy, listening to Jimmy Swaggart on tv while my grandmother got ready for Sunday School. I loved the music, and thought he was neat to watch (perhaps the showmanship some have mentioned-which is not bad). Then I heard nothing for years-until I attended an Assembly of God Bible college. Then it was all about his sin, and how "bad" he was. To be honest, I was disappointed, but didn't think much about it. More recently, and elderly man at our church died, and, his family knowing I am a licensed minister, thought I might be interested in some tapes he had. I love good teaching and preaching, so I went to pick them up, and discovered a bunch of JS tapes. Curious, I listened to them, and he was right on. I found that some of them where from around the time of the "fall," and though some dealt with that very issue, they were right on! In fact, having been influenced, probably heavily, by WOF teaching, they were refreshing in their simplicity of the Gospel. I don't know about the man's lifestyle now, but the preaching was great! I am wondering if any who is Pro-Jimmy might be willing to pass on any old JSM material (music or teaching/written or audio). I want to once again, get back to the basics of the Gospel in my ministry. There is a lot of "good" stuff out there (and some not so good!), but without that foundation, it's worthless. I know you can listen on his site, but I just do not have the computer capabilities to listen. If anyone can assist, please e-mail Ryan @ Matt6_10@yahoo.com | ||
| stella (stella) New member Username: stella Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.52.190.227 |
He's a fat stupid bastard! What's up with that pink haired bitch on that christian channel who sits on gold furniture,who in the hell would be stupid enough to send her money,please do tell! | ||
| clay777 (clay777) New member Username: clay777 Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
Stella, is that how you talk about people in general or just about Christians? I take it you are not claiming to be one. Don't get me wrong, I think I know some of the people you are talking about on tv, and you are probably right about some things you may think of them. But don't let that mislead you to believe that God is not real or that He does not love you, HE DOES. :o) | ||
| friend (friend) Junior Member Username: friend Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
Stella, You better sit down for this one...I agree with you. It is so sad to see what represents the humble faith of Jesus these days. I just can't imagine Jesus preaching the sermon on the Mount screaming at the gathered folks...spit flying...such theatrics! The God I know is a loving God who calls us to a higher self. All we need to do is submit to his will (love God and your neighbor as yourself) and all else will fall into place. Try this sometime...instead of listening to a TV "preacher", sit quitely for about a half hour, put any distractions gently out of your mind and listen for the voice of God...the Inward Light. It is in that "still small voice" that you can experience Jesus and his universal love for all creation. Peace! www.fgcquaker.org | ||
| stephen (stephen) Junior Member Username: stephen Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 63.27.94.43 |
Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, Inc. Born in 1935 in Ferriday, Louisiana Family - his parents were both evangelists in the Assemblies of God - his cousins included Jerry Lee Lewis and Mickey Gilley Felt called to preach at age of 9 but abandoned the call and later dropped out of high school He was musically talented and considered following his cousin Jerry Lee into show business but in 1958 he committed to full-time ministry Ordained by the Assemblies of God and formed Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, Inc. In 1960's began to record gospel music in addition to his successful revival ministry In 1969 he went on the radio airwaves with The Camp Meeting Hour, paid for by reinvesting his album royalties In early 1970's expanded into television By early 1980's he was most popular televangelist in America - in 1981 he dropped his radio program to focus on television Very direct and emotional preaching - denounced Roman Catholicism, modernist Protestantism, secular humanism, and abortion Developed a complex in Baton Rouge consisting of a Bible College, printing plant, music recording studio, television production center, and church sanctuary that seats almost 5,000 Supported a large percentage of the Assemblies of God missionary programs Two programs The Jimmy Swaggart Telecast - evangelistic program A Study in the Word - Bible teaching The Sordid Story The Charlotte Observer had dogged Bakker since March 1983 criticizing his luxurious lifestyle - while he was pleading for money, the ministry was purchasing for him homes in Florida and Palm Springs, a Mercedes-Benz, and a Rolls Royce - he basically claimed that those luxuries were not inappropriate for someone doing what he was doing In 1985 the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability investigated and reported that the ministry was $6 million in debt despite raising $66 million in 1984 In December 1986 although $129 million had been raised that year, one-fourth of the employees were laid off Jimmy Swaggart, a rival of Bakker's, began the biblical process of confronting an individual according to Matthew 18 - he met with Richard Dortsch, a Bakker aide, but he denied everything - he asked Jerry Falwell and John Ankerberg to accompany him for a second meeting but before they could, the story broke Jim was accused of having sex with Jessica Hahn, then a church secretary, on December 6, 1980 (she would have been 21 then) - he was further charged with paying her $115,000 in 1985 to keep quiet - he denied the charges saying he had never sexually assaulted anyone - later he said she consented to have sex with him to make Tammy Faye jealous since they were going through a difficult time in their marriage - he said that in retrospect paying the $115,000 was not good either Bakker resigned on March 19, 1987, turning over the ministry to Jerry Falwell Discoveries of financial abuses The Bakkers, their relatives, and friends had received exorbitant salaries There were few available and intelligible financial records Approximately $70 million was owed to 1,400 creditors with $23 million of the amount delinquent The Heritage Grand Towers was still uncompleted although enough money had been raised for its completion - creditors were owed $14 million on its construction 120,000 partners had each sent in $1,000 toward the Towers on the promise of being able to stay in one of the rooms each year - there were only 513 rooms so the promise of several nights per year in the rooms could not be kept Falwell politely told Bakker that Bakker's association with PTL was over Investigations were undertaken by the IRS, FBI, Justice Department, Postal Service, South Carolina Tax Commission, and the U. S. Congress Bakker was put on trial, found guilty and sentenced to 45 years in prison - later changed to 8 years Jimmy Swaggart, whom Bakker had accused of trying to destroy him, now faced his own problems - he was discovered to have engaged in voyeuristic liaisons with a prostitute The Results Bakker served time, wrote a book entitled I Was Wrong, and now ministers through the 1,000-member Los Angeles International Church (aka the Dream Center) working with homeless people and drug addicts in the inner-city Tammy Faye tried to stand by her man and minister through a storefront church but eventually divorced Bakker - she remarried and her current husband also encountered legal difficulties - she continues to wear lots of makeup Swaggart agreed to submit to discipline from the Assemblies of God and not preach for a year - after several weeks of being off television, however, he returned to television - his earlier tearful on-camera confession brought back some of his flock and he still continues his ministry but his audience is not as large as before - he was defrocked by the Assemblies of God in April 1988 - he has continued to have difficulties with prostitutes Donations to other televangelists, notably Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, fell dramatically in the aftermath but later picked up Pat Robertson's campaign for the Presidency was derailed Vision Interfaith Satellite Network (V.I.S.N.) was created in September 1988 - they accepted advertising but would not permit direct solicitation of funds - they provided dramas, talk shows, news programs, and documentaries (such as an Emmy Award winning one on Desmond Tutu) - in 1991 7.5 million viewers appreciated them | ||
| stephen (stephen) Junior Member Username: stephen Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 63.27.94.43 |
More information about Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, Inc. Click this link: www.trinityfi.org/ | ||
| festus475 (festus475) New member Username: festus475 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 65.127.72.201 |
Jerry Falwell needs to go....AND SOON! He is no more than an egg sucking hypocritical fat dickhead that needs to be jap-slapped and kicked down the drain and off the air... He forgets that he is a sinner too....so bye! bye!, Mr. Fatcheeks Falwell...you turd who is always in Bush's bedroom! | ||
| softhearted525 (softhearted525) New member Username: softhearted525 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.9 |
For the believer there's no need for explanation...for the unbeliever no explanation will be believed. Good lord these moral hypocrites can make a person sexually dysfunctional.  First mankind is sexually human. Man is an animal like any other only mankind has been trained to view sex as evil unless between a husband and wife. No Adam and Steve marriages.  No Eve and Ellen marriages  I believe that God has a special hot seat  for hypocrite evangelist, pastors and preachers. Who rob the people with false teachings, live in a palace while the average person has difficulty paying their rent, buying food etc. There are so many phonies there isn't enough room to post all their names. | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 66.190.214.186 |
Jimmy Swaggart From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jimmy Swaggart (born March 15, 1935 in Ferriday, Louisiana) was a popular televangelist in the 1980s and a pioneer in that medium. He is the cousin of rock and roll legend Jerry Lee Lewis and country musician Mickey Gilley, all three of whom played the piano. Swaggart accumulated power and fame while picking fights with virtually anyone who didn't view the world in his own way. He picked fights with Catholics, Calvinists, and the then new contemporary Christian music scene through his monthly magazine, The Evangelist. Swaggart was also involved in two public controversies with other evangelists. When the PTL scandal destroyed fellow Assemblies of God minister Jim Bakker, Swaggart publicly denounced Bakker as "a cancer on the body of Christ." Later that year, Swaggart destroyed a rival evangelist, Marvin Gorman, over an affair Gorman had. Gorman retaliated because he knew Swaggart was doing the same thing. In 1987, Swaggart was involved with a prostitute at a Baton Rouge hotel when Gorman and some associates flattened Swaggart's tires, went and got cameras, and took photographs of Swaggart exiting the hotel with the prostitute. Gorman confronted Swaggart and told him he would have to come clean. Swaggart said he would but then refused to do so. Only after much wraggling did Gorman take copies of the photographs to the Assemblies of God headquarters in Springfield, Missouri. The story broke on February 20, 1988, four months after Swaggart had promised to confess his sin. On February 21, 1988, on his television show taped in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Swaggart confessed that he was guilty of an unspecified sin and would be temporarily leaving the pulpit. The "unspecified sin" was an affair with a prostitute. Swaggart lost much of his audience and much of his influence. To add to the comedy of televangelist errors, Swaggart blamed his problems on "demons" and claimed that controversial evangelist Oral Roberts had "cast out the demons" over the phone, thus assuring Swaggart was now free of moral defect. (This story is told in Mike Horton, "The Agony of Deceit"). In November 1991, he was stopped for speeding. In the car with him was another prostitute. Soon after, he was told to leave the church he pastored, but he did not do so. Swaggart kept his church and began preaching again years later. In 1995, Swaggart was again pulled over this time in California with a prostitute in the car. In 2002, the heirs of Pentecostal Bible teacher Finis Jennings Dake filed a plagiarism suit against Swaggart for failing to gain their permission before publishing some of Dake's materials. That lawsuit is pending at present. Now he has "made his life right with God" and preaches a message called "the Cross" which says that the only way to Heaven is through the death of Jesus. He opposes such movements as "G12 Vision" and "Purpose Driven Life." Do you guys notice something here. This is an authentic encyclopedia article written about Jimmy Swaggart. In the last paragraph, I noticed that it talks about "the cross" and says that it is the only way to heaven as if that is off the wall or crazy. But last time I checked, that was supposed to be everybody's message? It's called the GOSPEL! That is just evidence of how false doctrine has twisted and made several other "ways" to be redeemed? | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 66.190.214.186 |
Also, I wanted to mention I'm from Baton Rouge and attend the Family Worship Center (Swaggart Churc} if anyone has any questions I would be gald to answer them. But inregard to all this dog house and mansion stuff, Jimmy and Donnie have both Mortgaged their homes to buy more radio stations. So there is no more Swaggart mansions to talk about. | ||
| safeinhisarms (safeinhisarms) New member Username: safeinhisarms Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.169.177.63 |
Hi Barry, I would like to talk to you! Thanks, Songbird7777777@yahoo.com | ||
| scp89 (scp89) New member Username: scp89 Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.137.31.122 |
I've been listening to Jimmy Swaggart since 2001. I was very hesitant at first. I was attracted to the music and worship. Over a period of about 6 months based on what I had been hearing I really feel that Jimmy Swaggart has truley repented. Unlike many others, Jimmy Swaggart still is married to the same woman after all these years. WAY TO GO FRANCIS!!! Jimmy & Donnie are preaching the Cross of Jesus Christ and His finished work like no one else these days. They also take a stand against false doctrine like no one else. They do have an excellent radio network that covers a good portion of the country. If you like good expository teaching, you need to listen to "A study in the word". If you like good discussion/talk radio format which primarily deals with "false doctrines" you need to listen to Francis and friends. and of course if you like a good old fashion campmeeting style church service you can tune in and watch the service live. I'm from Lancaster Pa and I'm without a church home right now since the church we were at went the route of the purpose driven live. If anyone one knows of a good old fashion pentecostal church that still preaches the Cross let me know. | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.112.223.191 |
Well, I don't know of any where you live, but you can always go to jsm.org and watch the church services over the internet whenever you would like. Also, I have found that Dan Wilkerson preaches sound doctrine from what I've seen. He is stationed in New York, and you can listen to his stuff on the internet too. | ||
| scp89 (scp89) New member Username: scp89 Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.137.31.122 |
Barry, I have been a part of the Family Worship Center via the internet for over a year now. I hope to be able to get to Campmeeting maybe next year sometime. My wife has elected to go to a Prebsbyterian church. I went with her twice and did not like it at all. I would like to be a part of a congregation somewhere. I believe your talking about David Wilkerson out of Time Square Church. We've been there to visit once and it was nice but David Wilkerson was not there. I don't believe they have live services though its all archieved. No worship, just the sermon. I REALLY ENJOY SONLIFE RADIO!!!  Stew | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.112.223.191 |
Yes, I meant David Wilkerson. I am going to WEBC next semester (Jimmy's College). I'm sure I will get a great education of the bible, and It should definitly prepare me to spread the Word of God. And yes, the Campmeetings are a blast. | ||
| scp89 (scp89) New member Username: scp89 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.109.247.30 |
You'll be learning from the best!!! I love to hear Loren Larson, Jim Nashans, Mike Muzzerall and Bob Cornell. The Family Worship Center and WEBC have an excellent staff. We need to get some of their graduates to start new churches in south central Pa. | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.112.223.191 |
Yes, and the ironic thing is, only one out of my many family members support my going there. Everyone hates the idea, and they think I will be branded a Swaggart clone and that will hinder me possibly getting a church job when I graduate. But I certainly trust that God will see me through. People usually say negative things when I tell them that I plan to attend the school. It used to affect me to the point where I would be afraid to say I was going to school there when someone asked me. But then I realized, there is no reason to be ashamed of going to a school that preaches the straight Word of God, no matter what people say. | ||
| scp89 (scp89) New member Username: scp89 Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.109.247.30 |
I do believe that has to be difficult, but I also believe you'll be getting some of the finest teachings available. I do wish you the best. If you'd like to stay in touch you can reach me at s_pullan@hotmail.com | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.112.223.191 |
Ok, I will try to keep in touch and maybe let you know what's going on every now and then. | ||
| tennessee_wolfman (tennessee_wolfman) New member Username: tennessee_wolfman Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 68.186.132.50 |
Jimmy Swaggart doesn't belong behind ANY pulpit ANYWHERE...He has disqualified himself as a preacher and has brought reproach upon the Name of Christ. | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.114.107.171 |
Well wolfman, did Paul disqualify himself as a preacher when he persecuted Chrisitans? You are saying that because he sinned, he is not allowed the gracious forgiveness of Christ through repentence. If Swaggart repented, which it seems like he did, then God can no longer even see his sin, and you shouldn't be able to either. So how can you disqualify yourself by doing something that God doesn't even recognize? You need to check yourself because it sounds like you don't know what forgiveness is. You are judging him by human standards, and not by biblical truths. | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.2.220.247 |
Better than that. Peter denied Jesus and 7 weeks later was being filled with the Holy Ghost during pentecost. God forgives and still uses people for his purpose. | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.2.220.247 |
BTW. I was in Dayton Ohio this week and heard Jimmy Swaggart on 730am radio. Nice music from what I was able to listen to. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 197 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.178.226.162 |
betcha this thread's rock stockpile is greater than the world's combined nuclear arsenal and is outclassed by only the sheer level of inherent sinless perfection. astonishing. simply astonishing. | ||
| safeinhisarms (safeinhisarms) New member Username: safeinhisarms Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.169.185.68 |
Hey Barry, You are making a right and great choice in choosing the Swaggart Bible College. Don't let anyone stop you. How is campmeeting? It sure sounds great over the airwaves. I only wish I could get there. The world is in need and more than ready for pastors graduating from the college. God bless! | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.114.105.221 |
Thank you, it is a shame because the school only has about 50 students total. | ||
| nilapooh (nilapooh) New member Username: nilapooh Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
hello. iwaslistening to sonlife radioandheard them saythat joyce meyersis among the falseteachers.that she is afalse teacher . how in the world can jimmy swaggart put joyce in this catgory ? she is a glowing example of what god can do in a person,slife . she has been such an encourgement to my life and so many others . she is called to help the church grow up and is the only one i will listen to on tv. i was shocked to hear jimmy s say this . does anyone know why they put her as afalse teacher? i want to understand | ||
| nilapooh (nilapooh) New member Username: nilapooh Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
hi . i saw barry.you are from jimmysawaggartschurch,could i emailyou andidf so ineed yourcomplete email address.thank youso much . ihavesome questions,barryegan please reply backoremailmeat nilapooh2@aol.com | ||
| jp4lsu (jp4lsu) New member Username: jp4lsu Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 192.31.106.34 |
Swaggart lost my respect when he refused discipline from Assemblies of God. What is the point of a board in watching over it's pastors, if the pastors don't submit to it or abide by their suggestions, etc. The same goes for Bethany, also in BR, and so many other non-denominational churches. The pastors are the CEO of the business and are not overseen by any board or counsel. They call the shots. And the idea of passing on the family ministry or business to the children is the thing that should raise flags to all that attend these types of churches. That is not right and the to have a pastor making those decisions and having nepotism in the church is wrong. Now what if a large corporation's CEO made his son VP and forced the board to make him CEO after the dad retired. Nepotism at its worse and no one in here would agree with it. The same goes for a church. Although it is worse b/c the church doesn't have a board and vote on this type of action. So how is it right for the children of a multimillion dollar ministry to be automatically given the entire ministry. Anyway, I got sidetracked. Swaggart is an old school evangelists. I don't like him and they way things operated. It was actually prophesied over his church b4 his moral dilemna that "birds would fly though his buildings" and sure enough his 10-15 story school dorm building never was completed and is full of birds. I would have had much more respect for Swaggart if he had submitted to his leadership after his prostitute episode happened. Many have complained of extravagant lifestyle of Swaggart, well this sort of thing is rampant in the non-denominational community. Most of the big names live quite nicely and extravagant. Osteen spending $95 million on renovations is extravagant and ridiculous. It is not just the pastors' gross spending but the church gross spending also. | ||
| jimmyline (jimmyline) New member Username: jimmyline Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.49.78.48 |
I was wondering if anybody had any CURRENT information on Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. I am interested in 1.) How many people attend Family Worship Center and 2.)How many students are enrolled at World Evangelism Bible College and Seminary. Also, I heard that Donnie Swaggart got divorced a few months back. This was confirmed when I was watching the internet broadcast and Donnie's wife was somebody else! That was a shock. What happened there? I am more interested in the attendance of the church and the Bible college | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
I have no official source for you, but I had a Baton Rouge resident tell me back in 2001 that large parts of his sanctuary had been blocked off with black curtain to make it look "less empty" on TV. This same person told me that in the BR area he has few supporters, and the church hovers around 1,000 (I was told that's less than a third of his membership in the 80's). Apparently most of his support is now internet/radio/TV and not in his church. Again, this is just what I heard when visiting down there. To drive by his church (and half-completed buildings) you really get a sense of sorrow, because the "bird's nest" of a dorm is a stunning monument to what could have been. It's sad. I would probably give him more credit for keeping at it, but everytime I turn his radio program on, he seems to spend alot of time attacking other people rather than just teaching. | ||
| micasa (micasa) New member Username: micasa Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 216.125.32.226 |
jimmyline- I can give you some stuff on people that the swaggart family is close to....one guy murdered his wife's husband (while having an affair w/her)then married her after he died, another guy killed a government officer and fled the country-till things subsided Upon his return he basically got everyone fighting with each other (go figure)oh, yeah....best yet is this guy who lived in the middle east, killed "christians" then (believe it or not) REPENTED!!!! (Give me a break!) There names are King David, Moses, and the apostale Paul. In america we can't really murder people, but we can murder their reputation! What happened with Donnie? why don't you email him and ask him at www.jsm.org????? I'm sure you want to help him, right????? In case anyone doesn't know this...Jimmy DID do what the assemblies of god asked him to do, but upon completion...it STILL WASN'T good enough. To Drumladd-not reavealing the false teachings and false doctrines coming out of most of the american churches today is like telling people that their is a certain over the counter drug filled with posion & it can kill you, but....I can't give you the name of the manufacturer, that wouldn't be nice. It's not "attacking", it's called telling the truth not matter what people may think or say. You need to listen to SonLife radio for about 3-6 months, do your own research, and then make a statment. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 235 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Swaggart, should be forgiven , but he should not be allowed in front of a congregation again. he has the right to receive mercy as anyone does. Steel Jude 3 | ||
| scp89 (scp89) New member Username: scp89 Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.109.247.30 |
Doesen't sound to me like you really forgive him steelsword. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 238 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
scp , a child molester can be forgiven, a murderer can be forgiven. That doesn't men I want them out thre leading me or the flock. You except him back as your brother, but he is no longer the leader. Thats the diffrence. | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.12.240.68 |
Yes, but once God forgives you, he no longer sees your sin. And for you to not be willing to let him lead if so called than you are in effect bringing back up his past sin and holding it against him, something which God doesn't even do. | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.37.245.4 |
The truth is. Swaggarts sin is no different than anyones elses sins. His was exposed. Yours has not been exposed. All the other pastors sins have not been exposed yet. God cares about the hearts. Our gifts are without repentance says the bible. He is forgiven by God and Gods grace and mercy removed his sin. He should continue to preach and do Gods calling in his life. I commend him for his efforts. | ||
| barryegan (barryegan) New member Username: barryegan Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.12.241.32 |
Asaph It couldn't be put any better. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Dear ones here, Those who judge this man of God whom God has forgiven. Do you know why this judgment came on Jimmy Swaggart? Just couple of weeks or months before he was caught with the prostitute, he preached hell on another preacher who had committed adultery. David, the man after God's own heart, committed adultery with Bathsheba. Did he repent? Was he restored? Was he used by the Lord after that? I agree in discerning the wolves in sheeps clothing and trying the spirits to see whetehr they be of God. But you have to be very careful in doing that. You who do not know anything about another man's relationship with the Lord. What authority do you have to judge God's property? Sin has no quality or quantity in the eyes of God. Sin is sin. God can forgive the vilest, the worst sinner in this world. I'm sure you'll want Him to forgive you if you had ever committed something like this. "Judge not, that ye be not judged.For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Sidharth | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 240 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
We could go all day about judging. http://www.av1611.org/crock/judbynum.html The thing again is respect, I can forgive Jimmy, but by the public nature of his sin , their ia a fear that he will lead as many away as he will bring to Christ. Maybe the question is has their been enough healing time & how will his image affect Christianity as a whole. Will many say here 's another televangelist that couldn't practice what he preached, & will they see this market as hippocrits. It just seems that at some point most televangelist manage to put their foot in their mouths. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.32.98 |
is donnie divorced? i wrote swaggert min and didnt get an answer. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Junior Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
What happened to David after he sinned? Did he stop doing the work of the Lord? People put forth lies in all forms. What authority do they have to pass such judgments? People who judge a true child of God is in grave danger. It's not what you think steelsword. God doesn't care what your past is, He can cleanse you and make you whole all over. Kathyrn Kuhlmann committed adultery, but if you look into her ministry, she won more people to Christ and was used in a greater way after she repented than before. God has dealt with sin. It is no longer a sin-problem, but coming-to-Him problem. I would like to know what your life amounts to for the Lord? | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
To Drumladd-not reavealing the false teachings and false doctrines coming out of most of the american churches today is like telling people that their is a certain over the counter drug filled with posion & it can kill you, but....I can't give you the name of the manufacturer, that wouldn't be nice. It's not "attacking", it's called telling the truth not matter what people may think or say. You need to listen to SonLife radio for about 3-6 months, do your own research, and then make a statment. I'm not saying that discussing the validity or correctness of other ministries is not important, but I don't really think Swaggert is going to get any real respect doing it. The last thing a man in his position needs to do is worry about everybody else. Like steelsword said, it's not an issue of forgiving, it's an issue of respect in the public view. I have talked to non-Christians who look at the way he is now. They tell me that "why does a man who made so many mistakes spend any time pointing his finger at others?" I just don't think he is the right man for the that job [of pointing out error in others]. Finally, forgiveness of sins does NOT mean that you are spared the earthly consequences of your actions. That's like a 30-year alcoholic getting saved then expecting God to heal him from liver cancer SOLELY because he is "forgiven." I'm not saying God wouldn't heal, but if the former alcoholic dies from liver cancer, you can't say "he should have been healed because he was forgiven". He died from liver disease because he drank for 30 years. His spiritual standing with God is a seperate matter. His physical problems were a consequence of his sin. Swaggert will always have to deal with the consequences of his actions. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 243 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Belong2jesus A pastor in my home town just got caught video taping women in secret at the beach. When they seized his computer , they found more pictures, of women & little girls taken from his own church's ladies bathroom, where he had run a camera. He apologised after his arrest to his congregation, but he is no longer paster of that church. How would you feel if you were in those pictures? You are right , his sin is between him and the Lord, but all respect has been lost for him by his flock. If he were my pastor ,I would still Love him, but i couldn't in good conscience let him stand before the flock. As you said i cannot judge the color of his skin, the car he drives, clothes he wears,etc. , but the result of his sin has caused pain & suffering to his flock. Maybe in time his flock can see through it, but i beleive there will always be someone who says , Is not that the preacher that:???????? and they may be a babe in Christ. We all sin ,I understand that, but the pastor is held to a higher standard , because he will stand before God, responsible for his flock. "I would like to know what your life amount to for the Lord? Why ? am i to be Judged? I am again not the judge of Jimmy Swaggart sin. I also am not big on televangelist , because most preach a diffrent gospel & hurt the true message of Christianity, due to their large audience & visability. So when their sin is public it goes beyond the county line. If you read enough around these post, you will know what my life amount too in the Lord! God Bless, Steel Jude 3 | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 64 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
Thank you for your mail, Steelsword. "If he were my pastor ,I would still Love him, but i couldn't in good conscience."-steelsword It is my desire and determination to be like Jesus in all my ways. The Holy Spirit is here to form Jesus in us. If Jesus forgived such a man, I know I must or else I would be blocking God's forgiveness for myself. God shows mercy to them that show mercy and He forgives us with the measure we forgive others. You needn't worry about another man's life, whether he is a bad example or a good example. The world is filled with bad examples of preachers. We don't have time to right all social ills, we must take the Word of God to the lost. If Jimmy Swaggart can touch souls with the touch of Jesus, I would rather not stand in his way. I know many people who were comforted, when they knew God embraced Kathyrn Kuhlmann even after she fell from God's grace. I know so many people who sinned and felt so condemned that they were about to take their lives, but when I shared with them how God embraced people like Kathyrn Kuhlmann , they were so comforted and they moved on with full assurance that their failures are nothing before God. Stop talking about preachers and their falls, and start talking about Jesus. He is coming back soon. The rapture ground is here. Why would we get held up in here, let's move on. I'm glad you responded. Walk in love and give space for others wrongs, for love covers a multitude of sins. Because of His extravagant love, Sidharth | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 247 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Belong2Jesus, I can agree with much of what you say, but the word says we must exspose false teachers etc. You said yourself on the the Billy Graham thread: "I would keep away from Billy Graham" Why? Him & not Swaggart? Both of these men have harmed themselves with their message and actions. Sidhardth where are you from? I support financially missions in India, Hope the work of the Lord is Going Great there, although I know it's an uphill battle. God Bless , Steelsword | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.33.164 |
Billy Graham, as far as I heard he is preaching absolute false doctrine. The bible does teach us to expose the false. As far as I have heard about Jimmy Swaggart, he preaches the truth, though he sinned. He got back with the Lord. And if the Lord wants to use him again, I better not stand in the way. I personally like the teachings of Derek Prince and Ernest Angley. I don't listen to many preachers who come on TV. Yes, I am from India. Am glad to know you support the work here in India. God will surely reward you for it. God is moving in marvelous ways in India. I pray I will live to see a blood-washed India! Sidharth | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i too feel jimmy swaggart should be left alone he has repented and GOD is useing him so we better just leave him alone | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) New member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.253 |
Swaggart biography: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/televangelists/jimmy-swaggart/ | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
love, If we should leave Swaggart alone, then he should leave others alone. He brings it on himself!!! Belong2jesus- You misquoted steelsword: He said: If he were my pastor ,I would still Love him, but i couldn't in good conscience let him stand before the flock. You misquoted: If he were my pastor ,I would still Love him, but i couldn't in good conscience."-steelsword You kinda changed the statement, then accused him of being unChristian by not forgiving/loving him. I can love Jimmy Swaggart, and I hold no ill will against him. He owes me nothing. But that doesn't mean that I have to put him back on the pedestal he was on in the '80's like some here seem to think we should. I noticed you really didn't respond to steel's real-life situation. If a pastor was into child porn and got treatment and forgiveness, and claimed that he was clean, would you let him be your Children's Pastor? | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 98 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.35.136 |
i have never found out if donnie got divorcied | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.34.242 |
Drumladd, I'm sorry for misquoting, didn't do it purposely. I DIDNOT accuse him to be unchristian like. I'm not here to put Jimmy back to the pedestal. I have other jobs to do. If Jimmy is serving the Lord, I appreciate him. Most people who fall stay there in the pit and give the devil the victory completely. If someone falls instead of thinking and feelong bad about his past, true repentance would cause him to press forward with greater diligence. Most people who accuse others like this, never amount to anything. They're just blabbering something that the Lord doesn't want them to speak, and they think they're being led by the Spirit to uncover false prophets and teachers. Talk about people who are steeped in self. Sidharth | ||
| dpike777 (dpike777) New member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.168.44.207 |
Greetings: Jimmy Swaggert is human like the rest of us. The second time he got caught with prostitute I heard him say that had kept praying and seeking God for victory over that besetting sin, but it seemed to elude him. Now, when I watch him and I see that he has found the answer that he sought. That is why he is preaching so much on the power of cross right now. He discovered Roms 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Now Jimmy Swaggart walks in victory. I think he is real and sincere. I will tell you straight up, I'll eat my hat if he gets caught with another prostitute. He won't, because he has found the victory he sought. As far as his lifestyle goes, I have no problem with that. Show me in the bible where it says that Christians are supposed to poor. I dont see anyone condemning sports stars with multi-million dollar contracts. All they do is play with their balls (no pun intended). Why should they get paid so much? When a sports star gets caught cheating or using drugs, he may get fined or suspended for a while, but no one cries foul and dirt bag when he is put back in the game. When you go to a stadium to see a game, how much does it cost to get in? How much are the Hot Dogs, peanuts, drinks, etc? I think they are only in it for my money! You pay all that money just to watch a game that will not amount to a hill of beans a week from now. Being teacher is a much more valuable and dangerous profession, yet they get paid a meager wage. Preachers are in the business of saving souls from an eternal hell. It is the most honorable profession (in my opinion) yet it is the most despised. To all those athiest/agnostic posters: When you God hating pagans are cast into a burning blazing Lake of Fire (and I dont wish it on you) you'll know that we Christians were right and were only trying to help you! Blessings, Dan | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
Dan, I agree. I just purchased and received a bible from him called the Expositors Bible, and he signed the bible with Romans 8:2. I believe he found the victory and I thank God for it. AA | ||
| jeepman (jeepman) New member Username: jeepman Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.145.28.66 |
Jimmy Swaggart is probably the best pulpit preacher in America. I was listening recently to a radio station and was floored by the power of the preaching (basic salvation message). It was Jimmy Swaggart!! He is forgiven. Period!! The only problem, and I do mean the only problem I have with him now, is that he did NOT submit to the authority of the General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God (Dr. G. Raymond Carlson a the time) and it cost him his credentials. I would love to see Jimmy Swaggart restored to the Assemblies of God. He is genuinely repentant and deserves his AG credentials back if he wants them. (Message edited by jeepman on September 05, 2005) | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Junior Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.253 |
Swaggart:: "Then in July, Penthouse ran an exclusive interview with the prostitute, Debra Murphree. She claimed that Jimmy once inquired whether he could fuck her child: He'd ask me if I'd ever let anyone screw my daughter when she was that young, and I said, "No, She's only nine years old." He asked me if she started developing or if she had any hair down there. [...] "I can picture my cock going in and out of a pussy like that," he said." That is the kind of garbage that Swaggart is. May he rot in hell. | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
As far as his lifestyle goes, I have no problem with that. Show me in the bible where it says that Christians are supposed to poor. I dont see anyone condemning sports stars with multi-million dollar contracts. All they do is play with their balls (no pun intended). Why should they get paid so much? When a sports star gets caught cheating or using drugs, he may get fined or suspended for a while, but no one cries foul and dirt bag when he is put back in the game. I'm not saying he or any minister has to be poor, but there is a huge difference between a $15,000 car and a $45,000 car. There is a difference between having 10-15 $200 suits and 10-15 $500 suits. There's a difference between a $200,000 home and a $500,000 home. I can't do anything about a sports star because if they're not a Christian, they're not going to care about biblical standards. You're inaacurately assuming that we all love and adore athletes and don't care that they make truckloads of money. Most of their $$ and support come from the secular world, not the church world. You want to talk about finances in regards to ministers, then call my friend in Africa who struggles to get enough support to feed his family, and ask him if the bigwig pastors in the USA make too much. Guys like Swaggart could cut their salary substantially, send it to poor missionaries, and still live better than I ever will. The ultimate blame there though is the churches and trustee boards that approved those bloated salaries to begin with. Those of us that question Swaggart are not questioning his forgiveness-- we have said that over and over. I believe he has received forgiveness. But that doesn't mean that the consequences of his actions disappear. I would never serve under him because of the submission to authority issue-- I couldn't submit to a man who refused to submit to the authority over him. To me, that had more to do with his downfall than his lust/sex issues. You can't elevate yourself to that level without someone above you to keep you accountable. | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
I do not understand your thinking here. I drive a 50K car and make alot of money and care for the poor also? Who are you to dictate our salaries? What is this. Why impose the law on me. Paul taught that the law was like witchcraft and a spiritual abuse on God people. If God blesses me, so be it. If Swaggart after 40 years is blessed with a large following and church, so be it. He is forgiven and moved on like you. I give alot to the poor as Swaggart does also. So please rethink your position. Maybe you need to pray about your comments. | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
After spending time with several missionaries, I do question why in American culture we spend money like we do. And I question why we have this block of bigwig pastors that live like millionaires. I'm sorry, but the vast majority of those in the bible were not rich. It doesn't line up. REad my post again. I am talking about ministers, not you. I do believe ministers have a higher standard. But the reality is that 95% of all the wealthy Christians in the world live in the good old USA. Most Christians in this world live below the poverty line, and yes I do question the expense that American Christians spend on comforts like nice cars, big houses that are more than they need when we have brothers and sisters in Christ that struggle to find money for food or medical care. The only reason God "blesses you" is so you can bless others. I personally don't believe that God blesses us so we can move up from a Toyota Corolla to a Lexus. I don't believe God blesses us so we can go from 2000 sq ft in the suburbs to 4000 sq ft on lakefront property when you didn't need it. It just doesn't line up with most of the Scriptures I read. I'm not dictating anything, I am sharing my opinion after seeing what I have seen. If you don't agree, then don't do it. And I don't think I need to "pray about it." It's a legitimate question. I'm not imposing any law, and I am not dictating salaries. I'm questioning how we as Christians spend our money, not how much we make. And my whole point is that the example starts from the top, with people like Jimmy Swaggart. When I see pastors buying $1000 Rolexes and own a Lexus, 2 Escalades, and a BMW, I do have a concern. I will ask you this: could you have spent $20k on a car that would have suited your NEEDS, then invested the rest into a missionary? That 30k could pay for a missionary family's needs for a year, maybe more? Which matters more? Look I'm not judging you, I'm just raising the question. To me, New Testament Christianity in Scripture screams that material wealth and having earthly riches is not worth a hill of beans. So why do we American Christians pursue wealth? And trust me, I have plenty of improvement too. But I'll tell you this: my wife and I drive cars with 200,000 miles each that we own. We could go out right now and get 2 new cars because we have good credit. But we don't because that $500-$800 in car payments can go into ministry. So we will wait until these cars die before we spend the money. We live in a 2 bedroom apartment that is comfortable until we have kids, and we will stay in it even though friends in the same income bracket are building 2000 sq ft homes because "they just want to" or "they deserve it" and "we're blessed". But we both are friends of a family that wants to go to the mission field but are struggling with raising support. You see what I'm getting at? Our house-building friends that are going from $400 a month rent for a nice and comfortable townhouse to $1200/month mortgage plus upkeep could finance that missionary family AND build a smaller house that would be more than enough. But instead, they're telling the missionary family that they will be praying that God will provide for them and oh here's $20 a month to clear their conscience. You may want to pray about what you said: If God blesses me, so be it. Maybe think about: If God blesses me, what should I do with it? Bottom line: If whatever you give you feel is sufficient, then why do you worry about what I think? I'm not going to break fellowship with you because you have a 50k car. I'm just raising the question. Talk to lost people when they see someone like Creflo Dollar or Rod Parsley coming into town in limos and wearing $1000 suits and see what they say. Lastly, I don't think the American Dream is a bible-based concept, but alot of American Christians live like it is. Let the fireworks begin! | ||
| cindig (cindig) Member Username: cindig Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.219.60.186 |
Very good drumladd, I agree with you. | ||
| friend (friend) Intermediate Member Username: friend Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
someone wrote: "As far as his lifestyle goes, I have no problem with that. Show me in the bible where it says that Christians are supposed to poor." Jesus pretty well covered that in Lk 11:41, 12:33, 18:22 by telling us to sell everything and give it to the poor. Now I am sure that some Christians would rationalize that away but Jesus did say it. Now I'm not about to say that I have followed that command, but I do seek to live a very simple lifestyle. Why is it that many modern day Christians think that God is just the big piggy bank in the sky? And drumladd...your last line is so true...the American Dream is not a Biblical concept. Neither is the nationalism we are seeing in evangelical/fundamentalist circles these days. | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
For me it's a question of what can I do with my money? I try to look at any expense that is not necessary and say "How many lives will this purchase effect? Will it impact alot or just me?" One problem is that churches in the USA have hammered the 10% tithe for so long that people think that if they give 10%, they are ok and can spend the rest of their money as they wish. Or they may give 10% and 10% giving, but that's it. Now I admit that's pretty significant if you make $25,000 a year, but someone making $200,000 a year, it's not as much of a sacrifice if you are living modestly. I'm not saying we all have to drive clunkers or never own a home. But we tend to go farther than we need in America. We build our churches the same way. Why is it that most churches spend more on good sound systems and carpet than they do minisrty to the homeless? I sometimes get mad when I see in my town 1-3 million dollar church buildings and a block down the road see dilapidated projects and I wonder what the people in the projects think about the pretty church building. Again, go ask missionaries about the value of a pretty building; they have more powerful services with shacks for churches! Trying to come back to topic, I am simply saying that this behavior comes from the top. The sheep are just following the shepherd. If my pastor can drive a BMW, why can't I? If he wears Armani, why shouldn't I? We built a $5 million sanctuary, so why can't I build my $500,000 home even though one half that price would be more than comfortable? Again, I'm not unappreciative of what people do give, but the question is how much more could we give? Why do we stop at a certain percentage? I sometimes think that if we followed traditional 10% tithing in the OT, then we should also follow the Year of Jubilee, where debts are cancelled, land is given back to the original owner, etc. | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
Again....It is not up to anyone to judge someone on how much God has blessed them with. Cars or whatever. If you choose to have cars with 200K miles on it. Fine. But I like new cars with 10K miles on it and I do not mind spending 600 a month on my cars. So, God has blessed me and I have worked hard for it and I thank God for what I have. i just dont see where it is anyones business about this stuff. it is just a distraction from your purpose in God to focus on this nonsence. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Intermediate Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.34.167 |
if GOD blesses a man or woman then sure use it ... but use it for GODS kingdom and not for yourself all the tiem he thatdesires to be rich will fall into a trap. | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
Ummm.....okay so it's nonsense. It's nonsense to discuss stewardship and finances. Heck, if it's nonsense why do preachers and pastors spend even 30 seconds on it during church? Really? Nonsense? If it's nonsense, why are you getting so upset? I'm not angry, I'm just throwing some questions out there. I will say it is typical though for you to not answer or discuss and just call it nonsense. Seems to be the easy way out. Again, you miss my point. It's not about how much God has blessed you with, it's about what YOU do with it. Again, could you live with a car that only costs $300 a month and use the other $300 to support a missionary? You may already do that [support a missionary], but why not support another one? I'm not JUDGING you. You can do what you want and I am not going to look at you with any scorn or superiority. But I do have a concern when you think a $600 a month (are you including insurance?) "new" car makes you feel more blessed than being able to give half of that to the Kingdom, and still have a car that is new and comfortable. But that's your choice. I'm simply suggesting that you can experience more joy and blessing in your heart if you rethink what you do with your money. I never asked you what your situation was financially, you brought it up. I was questioning the lavish living of pastors who pressure people that don't have alot of money to "sow into their ministry" and then you see them wearing Armani suits during their pledge drives because they still need $100,000 to fund their wardrobe,...I mean TV ministry. "i just dont see where it is anyones business about this stuff" Why can't we as brothers and sisters ask each other tough questions, do you not believe in financial accountability? I have some brothers that I know if I rolled up in a BMW tomorrow, they would ask me "why did you buy that?" and hold me accountable with my finances. They're not infringing on my privacy, they're doing what I asked: to hold me accountable in all areas. If we follow your statement, then I should be able to rationalize ANY behavior or habit because "it's not anyone else's business." I mean, would you rather me suggest it to you now or wait until eternity before you see what you COULD have done? | ||
| friend (friend) Intermediate Member Username: friend Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
asaph, here are some things the Bible says about money. If the Bible has this to say about money, then perhaps riches are not a blessing but a hindrence to faith. 1. James 5:1-3 Idle wealth will condemn the rich. Wealth that is not being used will be a curse on those who have it. We in the West let food rot, clothes become moth-eaten, and let rust and dust collect on other belongings while the Third World goes hungry. 2. James 1:9-11 The rich will be made low. Good news to the poor is bad news to the rich. Bringing down the rich and lifting up the poor is part of the gospel. (Luke 1:52-53) 3. James 2:5-7 God has chosen the poor. One rarely gets rich without loving money, and so Jesus' stand against greed makes him the enemy of the rich, and vice versa. 4. Luke 6:20-26 Heaven belongs to the poor. Some Christians argue that the 'poor' here are just 'humble' people, that it has nothing to do with real poverty. Who are they kidding? 5. Luke 18:24-25 Nearly impossible for a rich person to get into heaven. Some Christians say the "eye of the needle" is a small gate in Jerusalem. Possibly. But the only way a camel can get through that gate is to take everything off it, and crawl through on its knees. How many rich people are prepared to let go of everything and humble themselves before God? 6. I Timothy 6:7-9 Be content with food and clothing. Contentment comes from lowering our expectations, and concentrating on doing what God wants. Providing for our material needs is his responsibility. 7. I Timothy 6:3-5 Stay away from people who preach prosperity. Prosperity teachers are the most popular in the church world today. They say poverty is a curse from the devil, and godly people have a right to be rich. This is exact fulfilment of this prophecy. 8. Titus 1:10-11 False teachers are motivated by greed. These heresies are taught because the rich won't pay to hear anything else. Even small time preachers must water down the gospel to keep the money rolling in. 9. Luke 17:26-29, Matthew 24:38 One of the real sins of sodom. The root problem was materialism. And the same is true today. 10. Matthew 6:19-20, Luke 12:33 Save up wealth in heaven. You do it by giving to the poor now. You can't save up money here and in heaven at the same time. | ||
| nilapooh (nilapooh) New member Username: nilapooh Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
frankinchrist. you are a dispicable person yourself for the filthy language you used in your post . i DO NOT appreciete it . stay off this forum if you cannot respect others here . you need to get SAVED ! CLEAN UP YOUR MOUTH !DISGUSTING | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 263 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Nilapooh , although the language is not nice, it was not FrankenChrist who said these words, but Swaggart to Debra Murphee. He was Quoting the Article. If we couldn't Quote others there would not be this forum. God Bless Steel | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
I know the scriptures in reference to finances. And I am not upset. I dont think its anyones job to judge people on how much money they spend. you do not know the whole story of peoples finances. And frankly God knows I am a good steward. | ||
| nilapooh (nilapooh) New member Username: nilapooh Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
hello.i really think we should forgive jimmy swaggart . he has repented and it is not in our today . reality is today . not yesterday .only satan recalls every thing we,ve ever done wrong. something to think about | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
nila, if you read the post history, you will see that most of us agree with forgiving Swaggart, but we do hesistate to say we would be comfortable having him as our pastor. Keep dodging, asaph; and keep repeating yourself. You're missing the point. I am questioning lavish spending by the "bigwig" pastors and the impression that leaves the flock. If you know the Scriptures, then show me where God is fine with you driving a 50k car that will one day be in a junk yard while Christians in third world countries have no food that you could provide if you bought a cheaper car? I'm not attacking you, I genuinely want to know how you could justify that. And I'm not saying I do it perfect either; but I'm trying to improve. I just wish you would discuss it like I'm trying to. Here's some questions you could discuss: 1. How much should a Christian give? 2. What is reasonable spending and what's lavish waste? Obvisouly a 50k car for you is not lavish....so what would you consider lavish? 3. Why are you blessed to be wealthy enough to afford a car like that? Do you consider it a reward for the giving you do? Do you deserve it? 4. Does a Christian in Russia who works 80 hours a week to have food on the table deserve as much as you? If so, why don't they have what you have? Do they lack faith? Or did they just have the bad luck of being born in Russia? 5. Have you ever simply CONSIDERED that you could spend less on yourself and bless others? Again, I am using your example: You can afford a 50k car. You could buy 3 or even 4 cars with that money that are comfortable cars (i.e. not shabby). You could keep one car for you, and give a single mom in the church who bums rides and catches the bus one, give one to the member who's car was totaled in an accident and they are about to lose their job because they don't have a ride. I'm just asking if the thought crosses your mind. And I am asking if the thought ever crosses these preacher's minds that ride around in private jets and limos and own extravagant houses and wardrobes. Again, please explain yourself. If we're wrong discuss it with us. | ||
| jeepman (jeepman) New member Username: jeepman Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.145.28.66 |
I have never seen where it was proven that Jimmy Swaggart ever uttered those words to Miss Murphee. Just because it was "quoted" in a magazine doesn't mean it's true. It sounds like Miss Murphee was diggin' for gold. AND....consider the "magazine" that the article was in. Oh my, it MUST be true!!  | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
Look Dumbladd, I am against "Big-Spending". I worked for Anne Gimenez and saw first hand "Big-Spending". But, I did not know how much she was giving to the poor. Nor would she ever tell anyone. Remember son, just because you have it to spend does not mean your not giving a ton also. | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Junior Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.253 |
I'll take the word of a prostitute over Swaggart any day. Swaggart has proven to be a pervert and a liar. If there is such a thing as God and Hell exists Swaggart will roast there for eternity just like the piece of garbage deseves. I have moral standards unlike Swaggart. I know none of us are perfect but if someone is going to be a minister they are a role model and they should be kept to higher standards than the GP. In the case of Swaggart -- he has absolutely no morality at all. He is a liar, a pervert, a theif, a conman, a greedy pig and an all around creep. They put people in jail for smoking a joint -- and a child rapist swindler like Swaggart goes free and is stinking rich. If someone pounded the crap out of him it would be justified. | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Junior Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.253 |
I'll take the word of a prostitute over Swaggart any day. Swaggart has proven to be a pervert and a liar. If there is such a thing as God and Hell exists Swaggart will roast there for eternity just like the piece of garbage deseves. I have moral standards unlike Swaggart. I know none of us are perfect but if someone is going to be a minister they are a role model and they should be kept to higher standards than the GP. In the case of Swaggart -- he has absolutely no morality at all. He is a liar, a pervert, a theif, a conman, a greedy pig and an all around creep. They put people in jail for smoking a joint -- and a child rapist swindler like Swaggart goes free and is stinking rich. If someone pounded the crap out of him it would be justified. | ||
| asaph (asaph) New member Username: asaph Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
Who the heck is this 'frankenchrist' chump. What a roal looser. Man needs salvation. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Intermediate Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.34.167 |
yes frankinchrist you need to change your name to goddenier or something for you should never use THE NAME OF CHRIST like you do that is bordering on blaspheming | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Junior Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.253 |
Frankenchrist is the title of a Dead Kennedys album that was put out in 1985. I will decide what name I use for myself but thank you for your opinion, God will decide what is and is not blasphemy but thanks again for your cute little opinion, hunny. | ||
| drumladd (drumladd) Member Username: drumladd Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.51.179.254 |
Who the heck is this 'frankenchrist' chump. What a roal looser. Man needs salvation. Look Dumbladd.... Well, when you stoop down to insults, I wonder why you bother coming here. You don't really want to discuss anything. Somebody touches a nerve and you blow them off and if they persist you insult them. I'm not your son and if you're going to insult me drop the "son" crap. And if you're implying that you're the older, wiser one of the two of us, you're not setting a great example. Have I called you any names? NO. And if you all really care about this frankenchrist guy why not pray for him or admonish him rather than call him a chump and a loser. If you are truly offended by his comments, talk to the moderators or whoever runs this site. If frankenchrist is unsaved, I'm sure that calling him names is going to draw him closer to Christ and give you all influence to speak into his life. | ||
| friend (friend) Intermediate Member Username: friend Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
Amen drumladd! It amazes me that Christians can get so upset over a "curse word" yet have no problem calling people names. Amazing! The absolute self righteousness of certain Christians is astounding. | ||
| nilapooh (nilapooh) New member Username: nilapooh Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
hello. i was reading the replys to this frankenchrist individual. i really do feel he isin need of salvation . i think he is here only to bash jimmy swaggart.when the lord forgivesus of sin of any kind . it is GONE and as if we NEVER committed them .and i feel he has recovered enough to minister to others. the bible says there is NO CODEMNATION to those in christ jesus. and to forget the things that are BEHIND nd to PRESS towards the things that are ABOVE.i think if everyone would live in and by the word.these questions about other people would be alot differant in HOW we view others who have fallen.the church has very little mercy for those who fall in my opionion.when jimmy swaggart fell.it broke my heart.i never had ill feelings for him ,ever! i had great compassion and still do . he needs our love and prayers and ABOVE ALL OUR MERCY friends | ||
| asaph (asaph) Junior Member Username: asaph Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 69.0.41.85 |
|
