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ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1662
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.156.150.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:42 am: | 
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Hi Grace2U and anyone else who wishes to join in the conversation.
Let's review the entire chapter, and see the continuing theme presented.
1 Corinthians 14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
1 Corinthians 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Prophecy is both given in Visions and in The Word. A teacher of the Scriptures is called a prophet. There are no more prophets (as there was in the Old Test-possible exception of the future 2 witnesses). Take heed if someone claims direct revelation from God, and it doesn't line up.
Jesus said "I have fortold you all things"
The Law and the Prophets.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
the preacher is Spirit lead and saying the Words of Salvation found in the Gospels. The listener doesn't understand the preachers language, and therefore can learn nothing. The preacher is whistling dixie, and only God and the Angels would understand said preacher, for they understand all earthly languages. But the people wouldn't, unless you bring a translator or speak the language.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Teaching God's Words with understanding.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Speaking in a language that is not known to the public, is fruitless, and beneficial only to ones self. Now, teaching the Word with understanding, benefits the church listeners. No confusion.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
This is simply saying that it is better to teach the Word than to be gifted enough to speak foreign languages. If you speak that foreign language, than you can use that ability to translate to the church listeners. Paul says that he wishes that they all could speak another/more languages than just the one from their birth. Even more so, he wishes that they understood the Word, the revelation of Christ, and were able to broadcast that truth. That is the IMPORTANT piece.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
If Paul spoke in another Language, then those listening wouldn't have a clue what was being said. Instead, Paul speaks to them with revelation, knowledge, teaching and sound doctrine.
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
A pipe sounds like a pipe, a harp sounds like a harp, so speech of the Word (or prayer for that matter) should be also understood, as a pipe is understood. We know what a trumpet sounds like, it does not sound like something else, but like a trumpet blast.
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
If it doesn't sound like itself, then who would know what was heard?
cont. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1663
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 67.71.87.212
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:34 am: |
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9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
Speaking in a language that is not understood by those listening is useless. You might as well be speaking to the air....or just to God, cause the people don't understand you....unless you speak their language.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
All things have their own voice. People do not sound like babblers, we sound intelligent. We should fully understand what is being said.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
If you can't understand the speach, then the speaker would sound like a barbarian to you, and vice-versa
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
We all want Spiritual gifts, but the truth of the Word is what is to sought after, the gifts are rewards. Deserved because of obedience.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
This means simply that if you are speaking to foreigners in your language, make sure that you can interporate the words or have someone there that can.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
We've covered this
Preaching/praying in any language that is not known to the audience is fruitless, even if you are preaching the truth.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Everything with understanding. The praying in the Spirit is with full understanding. Singing in the Spirit, is also with full understanding.
This would seem to discount the "unknown prayer language" as legit and render it false and fruitless.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
Again pretty strait forward. If they can't understand you, they wouldn't even know when to say Amen.
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
You may be praying with understanding, but those listening won't have a clue as to what is being said. That edifies no one.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Paul is saying that this problem is not his because God has gifted him with many different languages. Paul spoke Greek, Hebrew Aramaic, and many dialects in between. Paul was a great vessel for God to work through. Paul could go to these different areas and preach without the need of an interpreter.
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
This verse is strait forward. Understanding is paramount. No babyl or confusion.
cont.
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ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1664
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 67.71.87.212
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:42 am: |
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20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Learn like men/women, do not be unlearned as children. Again stressing the order and understanding.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
So God is going to use other people that speak languages to spread the Gospel. English surpasses greek and Italian and Hebrew, when it comes to spreading the Good News. Again we are speaking of languages, foreign languages and not any unknown prayer language. This is Old Test. prophecy and it HAS come to pass with Christians.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
This is about promoting Christ as Messiah. Tongues means languages. Simply. So, spreading the Gospel in different languages is needed and proof for those who have not heard the Good News yet, while those that believe already, have previously heard the Gospel in their own language. If we teach the Word to those that won't believe it is fruitless but is of much value to those of us who do believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
If the body of believers from all over, come together to worship and learn and teach....yet they all speak a different language, those that come in not knowing the Gospel or those young in faith will think that the congregation is nuts. The noise that would make...all those languages mixing together...would make it impossible to learn or even comprehend anything. The Newbie or unbeliever would run for the hills.
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
But if all are in one acord(sp) and are prophecying the Word of God so that all can understand it, then the Newbie or unbeliever will have heard the Gospel and have the CHANCE to believe and live forever.
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
In this way will Newbies and unbelievers be strengthened with God's truth and Revelation. Common practice of repentant Newbies (when overcome with the Holy Spirit) to fall to the ground and weep, worshipping God.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Paul is admonishing them here for disorderly conduct. This church was in need of healing. Too much confusion and different languages with out interpreters. If it does not edify, then it is not profitable to teach....and understanding each others speach/tongue/language is the first important step. Use interpreters, those that speak multiple languages...KNOWN languages.
cont. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1665
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 67.71.87.212
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:48 am: |
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27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
As detailed earlier...One preache/prophetr, one interpretor........at the most two or three preachers/prophets and an interpretor......interprete after each in order and with understanding. No confusion. All in the peoples language so they can understand. Not in Hebrew or Greek, as many early divisions of the new faith would suggest that this was for Jews only, not for Gentiles. This is Pauls great commission, to get the Word of Christ out to the World....not just in the Holy Land.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
No confusion....If no one can interprete your foreign language to the people, then do not speak outloud and confuse the people. Speak in your heart and mind to God...to yourself.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
same as verse 27
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
order and not confusion. No speaking over one another. Order
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
One by one and there IS order, thus the people can learn.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
The prophetic writings of the Prophets are for the new teachers/prophets to use to teach the people, not new revelation that might go against Them.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
God decrees that all the churches should follow these rules of order and non-confusion. "as in" all churches = ..."And I mean in" all churches.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
The history reports that there were both false prophetess' and whores that worked the city in their temples and evidently were common to the church in Corrinth aswell. Paul tells the folk "there" to follow these rules for women, as 'man' is not strong enough to combat the whiles of forward women. No harlots or preistess'(of 'gods') allowed in the Christian Church of the Living God.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Culture. As above. Changing a whole city.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
God's Word is for ALL, and not a secret to be held to one person. It is not a private matter, but for all. Also, God's Word came to us, it did not originate in out hearts or our minds. If God wants to speak to me he doesn't have to use an unintelligable language. This whole chapter is teaching this very thing. Order, not Kaos.
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
We must follow the Word of God over any traditional viewpoint. If the Word lines up with the Prophet=teacher=preacher, then fine...
cont. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 67.71.87.212
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:15 am: |
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38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
You can't change someone's heart if they are set on a particular way of thinking. Let em to it. God will use their ignorance for a greater good....eventually.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Teaching God's Word with 'clearness' and understanding is to be sought after. Allow the Gospel of Christ to spread amongst the peoples and languages of the whole world(the great commission), and do not forbid Christianity to spread beyond your people because you may think that Christianity is only for this group or that group.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
The central theme of the chapter.
This kinda defeats this whole private prayer language, or mumbo jumbo gift of tongues or whatever it is called.
If we follow the whole thought being presented the truth jumps out at you. If we take verse out of context, we can allow the scriptures to represent anything that we can imagine. Remember that the word "unknown" is not in the manuscripts but rather was added by the translators, and is set apart by it being in italics. "Tongues" is a rather poor translation, as the greek word is 'glossa' = Language(s).
Strong's
G1100
1100. glossa gloce-sah' of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):--tongue.
The private prayer language and babyl tongue seen on tv ministries is not a good thing They are in direct conflict of the very chapter that those (who support this evil doctrine of devils) claim for their proof.
Either complete scam artists, ripping off Christians....
or
Bad stuff from the Demonic forces leading pastors, fooling Christians, setting them up for the soon coming future deception of the anti-Christ.
or
Self delusion, getting caught up in the moment...
Kinda like feeling emotion (crying) during a fictional movie. We humans can get caught up in the emotion of the moment.
The practitioners then worship the experience rather than our Father. The experience of the emotion (which they believe to be the Holy Spirit) drives the relationship.
That being said, there are many good people in "that" denomination. Of the churches in Rev2 and 3, people have the chance to come out of the delusion and claim the truth.
Peace in Christ Messiah
c
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grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 829
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:44 pm: |
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Later . . . busy, busy week. |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 831
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 1:57 am: |
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You know I think it might be better Zeke if someone that really understood the other view presented it so I could compare and contrast.
On another note - since the above does refer to speaking in the spirit - I request your prayers. I have a sickening gut feeling about something and I'm afraid that something has happened somewhere, etc. Do you know what I mean? I don't mean any mumbo jumbo stuff - just intuition that I don't really understand. |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 832
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 3:44 am: |
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A problem that I would love for Zeke and someone with the other point of view to address:
The Apostle Paul writes, "He who speaks in tongues edifies himself...I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:4,5)
I would like to know how speaking in tongues as stated above by Zeke and in a "foreign" language without an audience that can understand edifies "himself". I cannot reconcile this. I'm taking the Bible for its word that "edify" means "edify" and not "deceives", etc.
I still think it was an unknown tongue. And here is why - ironically you are using the King James Bible to help support your view. Although I'm not a King James Onlyist I DO believe that God promised to preserve His word and that it would always stand ad I also feel that it has stood fairly well in the King James Bible. I will even go as far as saying that that God guided the King James translators to help keep his promise to preserve His word.
I think it is fairly likely that the translators were correct in this instance by including the term "unknown" in reference to tongue. As I stated before if you take "unknown" out you still have:
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
The tongue is unknown to men but not to God. That is just as feasible explanation as Zeke's explanation.
Also if all tongues were foreign language or divers tongues - why would the second part of the following verse really be needed?
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Wouldn't this indicate that there is a "heavenly language" that could be interpreted also. Why would he speak to himself in a foreign language? Or why would he speak to God in a foreign language unless it was the Holy Spirit inside of him interceding in a heavenly language what is deep inside his heart?
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
This could go either way depending on how you view the rest of the verses.
Otherwise Zeke you presented a very good argument and we agree on many things. The above are just items that I cannot reconcile. |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 833
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 3:50 am: |
|
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Why would an interpreter necessarily even be needed for foreign or divers tongues? Obviously it would be silly to speak German if there are no German speaking people around. But if it was a situation like in Acts - an interpreter wasn't needed. Another indication that this may be different than what was happening in Acts. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.242.35
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 6:32 am: |
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Hi Grace,
You wrote...
}A problem that I would love for Zeke and someone with the other point of view to address:
The Apostle Paul writes, "He who speaks in tongues edifies himself...I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:4,5)
I would like to know how speaking in tongues as stated above by Zeke and in a "foreign" language without an audience that can understand edifies "himself". I cannot reconcile this. I'm taking the Bible for its word that "edify" means "edify" and not "deceives", etc.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Teaching God's Words with understanding. Notice the difference.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
if you put "foreign language" there, then....
the one doing the speaking is only understood by himself, and not the church.
Edifying is understanding, and one must comprehend the speech to understand what is being said. Paul is implying that the Gospel be taught in whatever language the people understood, and not just in hebrew of greek. If the people spoke chinese and the Gospel was given in Hebrew, the listeners wouldn't understand even when to say AMEN.
Latin is a great example of this. You used to have to know latin to read the bible.
This is not an unknown prayer language, but rather Paul is telling them the rules.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Prophey=teaching with understanding.
If they all spoke many languages, than communication would be easy, but still....understanding is paramount, and more important than knowing how to speak 2 or 3 languages. Paul spoke many.
'Tis the Great Commission, to get the Gospel to the world.
I think it is fairly likely that the translators were correct in this instance by including the term "unknown" in reference to tongue. As I stated before if you take "unknown" out you still have:
1Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
The tongue is unknown to men but not to God. That is just as feasible explanation as Zeke's explanation.
I would say it this way.
1Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in a (foreign-not known to the people)language speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
If you speak chinese to an australian aboriginal, chances are he won't understand you. God will, but the man won't. All the Spirit lead revelation of the Word taught would be in vain...as the australian aboriginal wouldn't have a clue what was being said.
Whatever language man speaks, God understands. He understands all of them, but man does not understand all languages. Most new believers will understand only their native language and not hebrew or greek, so if you can't speak their language, do not share the Good news with them unless you bring an interpreter so they can understand you.
cont.
(Message edited by ezekiel_37 on April 04, 2007) |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1675
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.242.35
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 6:39 am: |
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}Also if all tongues were foreign language or divers tongues - why would the second part of the following verse really be needed?
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Wouldn't this indicate that there is a "heavenly language" that could be interpreted also. Why would he speak to himself in a foreign language?
Here, he is not speaking to God in a foreign language.
he is amongst foreigners, and cannot speak their language, so God tells us -if you don't have an interpreter, do not to speak at all because that would cause confusion.
Or why would he speak to God in a foreign language unless it was the Holy Spirit inside of him interceding in a heavenly language what is deep inside his heart?
Again, he is not speaking to God in a foreign language. He is now told to pray to himself instead of trying to preach or pray aloud, because that would be causing disruption.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. }
This could go either way depending on how you view the rest of the verses.
Teach with understanding, and Allow the Gospel into the whole world, beyond the Promised Land.
Otherwise Zeke you presented a very good argument and we agree on many things. The above are just items that I cannot reconcile.
cool. Each of us has our own opinions. My belief is that the whole chapter outlines the thought being presented. The thought is order and understanding and getting the message out to all, no matter what language they speak, by way of interpreters of foreign languages.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Why would an interpreter necessarily even be needed for foreign or divers tongues? Obviously it would be silly to speak German if there are no German speaking people around.
I think there is a misunderstanding (probably due to me) in what I was trying to present.
It is about rules for spreading the Gospel.
Don't preach in a foreign country/area/land without using an interpreter. If they can't understand you, it is fruitless so use an interpreter.
If there are multiple preachers, use order and get the message across. One at a time.
But if it was a situation like in Acts - an interpreter wasn't needed. Another indication that this may be different than what was happening in Acts.
It is most definitely different than in Acts. Acts..that was God Himself speaking physically through the disciples. All present understood, and there were many people there that spoke and understood a different languages than the disciples could speak. God's language is fully understood.
Corrinth was a melting pot of culture and there were many different languages spoken. Imagine 5 or 6 different languages being spoken at the same time. No one could understand a word. Hence the rules. Order and understanding. One has to understand to be edified. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1676
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.242.35
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 6:44 am: |
|
I pray for you and your problem.
Find the truth and don't worry, for you are a Christian and have the victory. Trust God and do what you can...He will do the rest.
Lord, We love you and give you honor. You are the creator of all things and we thank You for our existence. We thank You for our Salvation through Your Son. May all blessings, glory and honor be yours Father, and guide us in our journey through the flesh. Please help Grace through her difficult time, as she needs you now and forever. Strengthen her and give her knowledge that your plan will come to fulfillment, and although we may not fully understand your plan Lord, I pray that you lead us, guide us, protect us, heal us, and continue to Love us forever. We await Your coming with confidence.
In Jesus Christ's Holy name I pray.
Many people have a gut feeling lately. The world is , well anyway....
Peace to you in Christ
c |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 9:00 am: |
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Mr. Ezekiel:
Could you please explain the difference in pentecostal tongues and biblical tongues? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3238
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.112
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 11:02 am: |
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i wasnt asked but i will give my beliefs on the subject... the tongues in corinthians are different from the tongues in acts acts is the evidence of tongues or the reception of THE HOLY GHOST and the tongues in cor, are spiritual gifts of THE HOLY GHOST and if they are a messege in tongues they must be interperted. there is a time whne one can pray in tongues and it doesnt have to be interperted. then when one speaks and it goes to the church or to an individual it must be interperted. i am pentecostal and that is how i believe |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 3:29 pm: |
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M(r)(s). Arron:
Are you familiar with the origins of pentecostal tongues? The reason I asked is your understanding is quiet jaded and unbiblical. There is no such thing as "prayer" tongues or language mentioned in scripture. I have a reward for anyone who can find pentecostal tongues in the Bible. That reward has been around for nearly eighteen years now. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1677
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.172.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 5:43 pm: |
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t_a_t_m...hi there
You wrote....
Mr. Ezekiel:
Could you please explain the difference in pentecostal tongues and biblical tongues?
Yes. I have detailed it above...but in a nut shell....
1Cor14...There is no biblical basis for the unknown babyl prayer language. 1Cor14 is about translating the gospel into other languages, so the great commission could begin. Getting the Word of Christ out to all nations.
Acts2.....God's gift of tongues, is the cloven tongue of God and ALL who hear it understand it, without interpretation. This is what happened on the fiftieth day. This is also what will happen at the end of the age, just before Christ's 7th trump return.
Peace in Messiah Christ
c |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 836
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 7:47 pm: |
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the_apostolic_truth_ministries,
Would you like to present your view? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 66
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 8:40 am: |
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Mr. Ezekiel_37:
Please forgive me for dropping the “_37" from your name in my previous post. My point is that you missed the point. “Tongues” have not ceased and will not until that which is ‘perfect’ comes. When you come to understand that tongues will continue throughout this age, you will understand the passage you are trying to dissect.
Always read every text in context without a pretext. That piece of cheap advice will make your Bible reading fruitful.
Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 353
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.246
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
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Hello TATM,
I ran across this thread looking for a few friends here at factnet and the title of this thread caught my eye. Normally I let these topics go anymore but I noticed your signature at the bottom of your post. I thought to provide this website so that you could add this study to thought. Not sure if your settled on this topic since you've asked questions here about it. Either way I think as a counter-cult apologist it might appeal to you. I'm sure you've heard every argument out there since one small reference to anything a person is told they HAVE to do is the first sign of wrong teaching.
But this one, I could almost bet that that you've never seen this study- not because you speak out of turn or without season- but only because this study is new to everyone I've spoken with.
If you check this out then scroll down to the bottom. It will be titled. There are a few other studies I've read there but the one on tongues is of course the one I point too. Print out and read it one some free time. But I'd like to hear from you if you do. I think the author would too. We emailed each other a couple time and he is a humble person who wants input and feedback.
http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/brmicke/ |
skooter942000
Intermediate Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 466
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.220.181
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:45 pm: |
|
Taken from :
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/6011.html?1175801436
Tongues means LANGUAGE in the MANUSCRIPTS.
nothing more = (Glossa)
tongue
1100. glossa gloce-sah' of uncertain affinity;
the tongue; by implication,
a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):
--tongue.
It is "not" ones NATURAL BIRTH LANGUAGE.
It is a second or third(...+) - Learned LANGUAGE.
Some people are gifted (in speaking more than
ONE language) To share the GOSPEL to other peoples.
ALSO
*if* one does not speak another language,
an interpreter will be needed,
- (If you go traveling).
Say i speak English alone,
& ( i go to Mexico).
-To SERVE THE LORD.
I do not speak but a few words of Spanish.
(I had better take someone with me)
- to help bring forth the message!!!!!
Someone to TRANSLATE what i say to their LANGUAGE. (For their Edification)
When Reading the WORD (In the NT),
insert the WORD "LANGUAGE" for "TONGUE".
SIMPLE/SIMPLE
The CLOVEN TONGUE is a Different GIFT.
- (From ACTS CHAPTER TWO)!!!
All peoples who hear this spoken,
- (Will clearly understand).
No interpreter is needed.
And all people will hear the MESSAGE,
in their NATIVE TONGUE!!!!
- Down to the very dialect.
(GOD'S SPIRIT) does the interpreting.
- No one else!!!
( ) |
skooter942000
Intermediate Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 467
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.220.181
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
|
~The HOLY SPIRIT does not BABEL~(ON)
BABEL comes from the king of all Babel
- babel means confusion
CHRISTIANS should never Babel, (in CHURCH).
If someone does, (Ask yourself), is GOD'S SPIRIT Present,
- or something else. = (a false spirit)
 |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 838
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 8:52 pm: |
|
Zeke,
I appreciate your prayer. I think I figured out why I had the gut feeling but everything will be just fine. By the way - my little brother ran off to Brazil and married some one he met on the Internet. Actually that doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would. It was a surprise.
Zeke, my first response when I read your posts is that I felt you were restating your previous opinion but upon reading it again I see that you did try to respond to my questions. This is one area that I'm just still contemplating.
I agree with AM above concerning tongues not ceasing but don't fully understand their stand on the whole issue - what they believe that tongues refers to (particularly after reading Jay's article which was an interesting view).
Scooter I don't completely understand what you are referencing as the "cloven tongue" is your view similar to what is stated in the article that Jay posted in its reference to a cloven tongue (and the reference to circumcision)?
In Acts 2:3 we see that tongues of fire came and rested on each of those present. The phrase tongues of fire is translated in some versions cloven tongues of fire, which is more accurate.
The literal wording is that “languages of fire were distributed” to them, distributed being number 1266 in the Greek dictionary of the New Testament contained in the Strong’s concordance to the Bible and languages being number 1100.
Seen through spiritual eyes, this is a New Testament fulfillment of an Old Testament shadow of things to come.
In Second Chronicles 7:1 we see the fire of God consuming the sacrifices and the Glory of the Lord filling the House of God in response to Solomon’s prayer. Romans 12:1 tells us that Christians should present their bodies as living sacrifices. 1 Corinthians 6:19 states that Christians are the Temple of God.
In concert then we see the fire of God descending upon the Temple. As is the case with the burning bush in Exodus 3:2, the living sacrifice is not consumed. In this case the living sacrifice speaks forth the language of fire becoming a witness (sign) and a bearer of the fire.
When they spoke languages of fire the discussions themselves were a sign to others that these people were Jesus witnesses, Acts 1:8.
God is described as a Consuming fire Deut 4:24, and there is a biblical correlation between fire and the purifying of metal. It is logical then that this new form of communication will purify Man’s heart.
I found this thought provoking posted later on the webpage:
The thing they did not realize at the time was that the removal of the fleshly desires from the heart is much more painful than the temporary physical pain caused by circumcision, Ex 12:48-49. |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 354
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.246
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:34 pm: |
|
Hello grace,
I came back to see if TATM had responded but found that you had mentioned this study. I wish I had wrote it but I didn't- I only provided it.
If I can comment on your post to Zeke- you said that you weren't sure what they are refering to when speaking about tongues. "I agree with AM above concerning tongues not ceasing but don't fully understand their stand on the whole issue - what they believe that tongues refers to..".
Most that believe in tongues, don't see it like this study indicates a person speaks in tongues. They do believe in what critics commonly know as bable. I am not a critical here much anymore of "bable" because I've understood that SOME who practice this don't believe it is what proves your salvation. And because there are a great number of those who "speak in tongues" this way, that do good in this world.
However, one must recognize that people outside this belief does good for God in this world. Some who "speak in tongues" will and have recognize it as well. This is what has made me less active in trying to persuade them to see who Christ really is.
Still some do not recognize the good others do. Some will say that doing good doesn't matter cause without "speaking in tongues" as they know it, is only attributed to nothing but themselves. Meaning that no one does good, including Christians who don't "speak in tongues" as they do, do it for the right reasons.
It seems you've understood what you read there in this study by what you wrote further on in your post. Let me add that your ability to understand it and your taking time out to read is a witness to something greater. Some are not willing to- even for the sake of broadening their argument for truth- are boxed into their experience that a shrine is built around it; and is made evident when they say it proves your salvation. Christ proves our salvation. Nothing we can do proves our salvation- even if works prove our obedience.
Feel free to email if you have time and we'll discuss these things in private. A place were we can speak freely. I just don't want to set myself against people here who believe in contraversial tongues. The reason is because on other things regarding doctrine I can learn from them. If my learning comes through testing their arguement; then I don't want us to have a pretense of disagreement based on this one disagreement.
jhernan9@uiuc.edu |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 812
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.82.80.189
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:37 pm: |
|
t_A_t_m,
1. From your post above, are you saying that you believe in tongues?
2. If so, what is your view? |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1683
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.158.183.55
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:30 am: |
|
T_A_T_M,
Would you prefer being addressed by your fact-net handle, or your full name, as presented.
I don't understand your view. You disagreed with Aaron, who believes in a babyl tongue, yet challenge my understanding.
Please give your understanding.
Thanks
c |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1684
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.158.183.55
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:38 am: |
|
I will add that, the Gift of understanding foreign (second, third, fourth, etc.) languages has not ceased. The gift of prophecy=inspired teaching of the Word has not ceased.(1Cor14)
The Gift Of Cloven Tongues of Fire that was given to the disciples was for a direct purpose, as it will be again at the end of the age. THE GREAT COMMISSION. This Gift is God Himself speaking through said "elect(ion)" as they witness for Him. All will understand the language that God speaks through their vocal chords....ALL! No interpretation needed.
Peace in Messiah
c |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 840
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:12 am: |
|
Jay,
I'll perhaps email you later this weekend. It has been a pretty busy week. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 68
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 8:29 am: |
|
Mr. jayhernandez:
I have but a moment to respond, so let me say 'thank you'. I will read the article later when I have time. In reading the first few words on the site, I saw several red herrings.
First, the National Council of the Churches of Christ (I am open to name correction, its a memory thing). The Church of Christ is a grossly aberrant cult. I strongly recommend avoiding them at all cost.
Second, the Revised Standard Version is quoted. The RSV was originally written as two volumes, one in the U.S. and the other in England. The English version was dropped and the U.S. version printed. That particular Bible is excellent, by the way. Unfortunately, the publisher agreed to allow the Roman Church to rewrite the RSV to support their religion. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses, Bible Students, etc.) also uses the RSV. They like the Bible because it denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
I will say more after reading the article. |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 359
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.246
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:35 am: |
|
TATM- I am familiar with both and agree with you on both.
Great- I'll hope to hear from you.
Grace- please do- it has been a busy one- until then |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3250
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.112
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 11:57 am: |
|
i use the kjv. and i know that some will condemn it as they do most of what pentecostals believe. i ONLY USE that version. i believe in being saved or born again first of all after that you can receive from GOD ANY OF THE GIFTS. |
skooter942000
Intermediate Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 470
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.216.233
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 2:50 pm: |
|
From Ezekiel_37
I will add that, the Gift of understanding foreign (second, third, fourth, etc.) languages has not ceased. The gift of prophecy=inspired teaching of the Word has not ceased.(1Cor14)
The Gift Of Cloven Tongues of Fire that was given to the disciples was for a direct purpose, as it will be again at the end of the age. THE GREAT COMMISSION. This Gift is God Himself speaking through said "elect(ion)" as they witness for Him. All will understand the language that God speaks through their vocal chords....ALL! No interpretation needed.
-------------8< --- cut----------------
- That Explains things WELL!!!
- From ACTS (2)
The CLOVEN TONGUE (LANGUAGE), goes out
to many at once. (In many directions)
One VOICE shared Branching out
- (INTO many LANGUAGES at once)
All nations could be present.
Many diverse peoples from every Ethnicity.
And all peoples would clearly
understand what is being said.
In their native BIRTH LANGUAGE.
- I.E. In their FIRST LANGUAGE.
A man from SPAIN would hear his native language.
A man from France would hear his native language.
A man from Finland (SAME/SAME).
GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT (does the translating).
- (FOR ALL PEOPLES)
Everyone clearly understands the MESSAGE.
1266. diamerizo dee-am-er-id'-zo from 1223 and 3307; to partition thoroughly (literally in distribution, figuratively in dissension):--cloven, divide, part.
- Just like in JOEL 2
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Joe/Joe002.html#top
Joe 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward,
[that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams, your young men
shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon
the handmaids in those days will I pour out my
spirit.
(See MATT 10)
(See REV 2)
- It shall happen YET AGAIN!!!!
...As a witness against the FALSE MESSIAH. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 70
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:44 pm: |
|
M(r)(s). skooter942000:
Is there any chance you have read the Bible? |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 841
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:51 pm: |
|
First, the National Council of the Churches of Christ (I am open to name correction, its a memory thing). The Church of Christ is a grossly aberrant cult. I strongly recommend avoiding them at all cost.
Second, the Revised Standard Version is quoted.
These two things actually bothered me but still I found some interesting points in the article regardless. I try to read things and throw out what I consider junk in such. This particular article though is something that you have to spend more than just an initial glance looking at. It is a little complex (at least to me from an initial reading.) |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 11:11 pm: |
|
M(r)(s). Grace2u:
I plan to read the article, perhaps sometime this weekend. In the mean time, I am trying to address the issue from a position of reason and logic. The views expressed here in this thread are not completely accurate. Both sides are defining pentecostalism's position. Neither side has addressed the real issue, "What does the Bible really say?" I will post a response later.
Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.156.148.3
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 11:38 pm: |
|
Hi there T_A_T_M
I'm sorry you feel that way, but the beginning of the thread details exactly what the Word has to say about the issue at hand.
Pentecostals (for the most part) use 1Cor14 to support the claim for an unknown prayer language.
The whole point of this thread is to detail just what 1Cor14 means.
Is it a prayer language?
Is it the same as Acts2?
Is it instruction on how to move the Gospel into the entire world, past all language barriers?
I choose the latter.
Peace in Christ
c
(Message edited by ezekiel_37 on April 06, 2007) |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 842
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:45 am: |
|
Please - no need to be formal for me - call me Grace.
I look forward to your response. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 814
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.82.80.189
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 6:36 pm: |
|
t_a_t_m Stated:
The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses, Bible Students, etc.) also uses the RSV. They like the Bible because it denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
1. Yes, they do deny the deity of Jesus.
2. No, they do NOT use the RSV. They use their own translation called The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures"
Facts are important. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1706
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.228.151.210
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 7:41 pm: |
|
T_A_T_M or Sandy Bryant,
Upon re-reading a few posts, and knowing your denomination, I would like to make an assumption, only speculative.
Is it your contention that "tongues" in 1Cor14 teaches us that God is speaking through a pastor or teacher.
Is it your contention that the unknown sounds coming from a (hypothetical)pastor are God's words and the pastor is the only one who can understand it?...or perhaps 1 (other) member of the church?...and therefore translate it to the masses.
This example I have seen on TV and know some people that attend a church that practices this.
Am I correct on the assumption?
Thanks
c |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 843
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:48 pm: |
|
bear,
Maybe he was referring to the greek text that the RSV and the NWT are based off of? |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 845
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:16 am: |
|
Jay,
If I don't email you don't take it personally. I'm just tired of using made up yahoo accounts to protect my identity. I generally - for the most part - am only emailing people that I know and have met in the flesh nowadays.
My understanding of what the author is stating is that tongues is related to our ability to understand a teaching of the Word of God at a deeper level. It's like when you hear something for the first time or even read over a passage you may gain a surface level of understanding; however, later you may gain a deeper level of understanding. I think what the author is saying is that tongues is like this except it is the Holy Spirit that may even the first time we hear something take us to a deeper level.
Assuming one agrees with this interpretation (and I am not quite there yet although outside of calling this tongues - I would agree with a lot of what he is saying), when Paul says that he speaks in tongues more than the others - would indicate that the Holy Spirit is speaking a message through him at even a deeper level that he completely understands sometimes.
The cloven fire symbology is (and I may not describe this accurately) is like the Holy Spirit's work in us (the temple) which provides the deeper level of understanding of God's words which allows us to speak the mysteries of God.
I found it interesting. I will also state that although I am not a male I do understand the points made concerning circumcision but more so because I have experienced to a degree a circumcision of the heart. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 74
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:31 am: |
|
Good morning, Mr. Bear:
Facts, indeed, are important. So, let us get our facts straight. Agreed? If you will check the date on the N.W.T. (New World Translation), you will discover it is a recent publication. The WB&TS (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society) recommended the RSV before the publication of its own Bible. Many of the group still own and use the RSV (Revised Standard Version). “Just the facts, ma’am” as Joe Friday on Dragnet use to say.
Do you know Daddy?
Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1711
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.175.91
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:21 pm: |
|
Hello there TATM
You have posted several times, since I asked you a few questions.
Were you planing on answering them?
Thanks
c |
jayhernandez
Intermediate Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 366
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.246
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:47 pm: |
|
Hello Grace,
I understand exactly what you say about ID's and yahoo accounts- boy isn't that a sure symbol of the times. =)
Thanks for responding. You have the general idea. It is so simple. Don't be discouraged to find people that say they are seeking answers, not really seeking them. There are very few here that will ever take a look at it- as I said previously- even if it's only to broaden their knowledge of what some are calling truth.
So when you come here and see all the bickering back and forth, and all the same arguments, ...realize that some just aren't ready to shed yet. The very ability to shed seems to come, as you mentioned again, with the circumcision of the heart. This is pretty much the whole ability to speak the wonderful mysteries of God.
I've explained it like this- and again it's very simple- have you ever spoken to a person that doesn't know God? These words of Love, Mercy, Hope, and Life are things way to deep for them to understand. Their eyes gloss over and their minds seem to shut down. If you speak to the wrong person they may even ask you if you've been smoking weed. hehe.
But you know what, it reminds of the passage of Paul when he says that he doesn't come with eloquent words. What does this mean? Surely he didn't come with eloquent words, but I'll tell you what, they certainly appear to be too the lost person. They did too me before I came to God. ]
Take great pride in this Grace. Be humbled knowing this. Come here and be patient. Know that words are thin. As for the study you read, I think at first it was a little redundant at times but I think it was helpful in reaffirming pervious points. After all, the skeptic- as I was- will have many verses that pop up along the way, but sure enough they were addressed along the way.
In over a year I have only shown this to 3 people. Not because the good news isn't free but because I feel this could potentially divide a church and I don't want this to happen. Instead I've given it to people I've had close relationship with that are wise enough to know it's potential impact. Those who I seen as having a burden for the church while understanding the churches currently divided situation but aren't militant. (These are thing I wanted to say in private. I will not be saying much more about this here after this.)
I never print it out and hand it over saying that it is Truth. I only ask them to read it and make comments because I want another take on it. The only thing I don't need another take on is the savior of my salvation, and the salvation of my savior. Chow- I'll see ya later. Happy Easter!
Jay |
skooter942000
Intermediate Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 483
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.221.1
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 3:04 pm: |
|
FROM:
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 70
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:44 pm:
M(r)(s). skooter942000:
Is there any chance you have read the Bible
----------------8< --- cut ------------------
- Have you?
The facts have been given you.
- (And this is your reply)?
= No reply, (but a smear tactic)
- Ah , this wisdom of men/(or women)
BTW my name is Don
- (So that's Mr. skooter)
[MARKED & NOTED]
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the
[one] cheek offer also the other; and him that
taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy]
coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of
thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods
ask [them] not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do
to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you,
what thank have ye? for sinners also love those
that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do
good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners
also do even the same.
() |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 816
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.82.80.189
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 7:55 pm: |
|
t_a_t_m,
Thank you for your clarity (I like your sense of humor.)
I was a JW for close to ten years, and the RSV was never used. It is from my time in this organization from which I received my information. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 9:08 pm: |
|
Come, Mr. Bear really? You were a member for ten years but don't know who daddy is? |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 817
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.82.80.189
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:34 pm: |
|
Daddy? No, you lost me. I never heard that term in reference to anyone. I left in 1989 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.146.42
| | Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 8:13 am: |
|
Daddy is Charles Taze Russell, as anyone who has sat in a Kingdom's Hall will tell you. It is on Daddy's vision that the WB&TS was incorporated during the last half of the nineteenth century (I don't recall the exact date). It was daddy's vision on which the NWT is written.
I try to know a religion before condemning it. |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 848
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 8:44 am: |
|
I've explained it like this- and again it's very simple- have you ever spoken to a person that doesn't know God? These words of Love, Mercy, Hope, and Life are things way to deep for them to understand. Their eyes gloss over and their minds seem to shut down. If you speak to the wrong person they may even ask you if you've been smoking weed. hehe.
Sure and I more pointedly can remember being on the receiving end and not understand at the time and now look back and say oh - ok.
Still, I'm not entirely convinced that this is not a gift of wisdom or knowledge more than tongues. There are just a few items regarding what the Bible says about tongues that I cannot reconcile with this - particularly in the verses in Acts. There seems to be obviously foreign human languages involved there (at least to me).
Have a good day! |
skooter942000
Intermediate Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 496
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.216.126
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:23 pm: |
|
1Cr 13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues
of men and of angels, and have not charity,
I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling
cymbal.
(This is Symbolism)
= An instrument playing out of KEY,
- Speaking in an unknown language is just that!!! (It is BABEL)
- The music is skipping a BEAT!!!
BABEL(ING)-ON , is confusion.
A false spirit , (does not come from GOD).
- Nor should it come from HIS SERVANTS.
TONGUE clearly means LANGUAGE here.
Though I speak with the language
of men and of angels, and have not charity,
I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling
cymbal.
Angels understand all languages.
Rolling on the GROUND and saying such things as:
bippidee bopidee bookah ,(smigga virga bongo),
- is not CHRIST_LIKE.
- Where did HE do this?
Scriptures please
X_______________________
Certain peoples have corrupted the TRUTH,
and made a mess of GOD'S WONDERFUL WORDS.
- ( or should i say , "have tried to").
- They shall not prevail , - ("GOD WILL").
BEWARE OF [EZEKIEL 13]
- For if the SHOE FITS.....(wear it well)
- Until you grow up , (and MATURE).
1Cr 13:11
When I was a child,
I spake as a child,
I understood as a child,
I thought as a child:
but when I became a man,
I put away childish things.
(man = ADULT MALE)
1Cr 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Cr 13:13
And now abideth faith,
hope,
charity,
these three;
but the greatest of these [is] charity.
-AGAPE- is Charity = (LOVE)
Posted in LOVE,
Seasoned with SALT.
- Salt does a BODY GOOD! (Meaning the BODY OF CHRIST)
Don <*))><
(Message edited by skooter942000 on April 10, 2007) |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 852
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Don,
I suppose you can speak a known language and it still could be babel.
Everyone,
-But I did hear a very good teaching on the language of faith today and it seemed to relate to this (particularly the link that Bear presented) very well.
The teaching was based off of I Corinthians 2. I would encourage others to read this slowly in context of this discussion.
I find it amazing how God orchestrates all of this - one day I am in a conversation on something like this and then I hear a sermon.
And then today He brings me to this verse (for Don and the Babel discussion).
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary:
turn to the people a pure language — that is, changing their impure language I will give to them again a pure language (literally, “lip”). Compare for this Hebrew idiom, 1Sa_10:9, Margin. The confusion of languages was of the penalty sin, probably idolatry at Babel (Gen_11:1-6, Margin, where also “lip” expresses language, and perhaps also religion; Zep_3:4, “a tower whose top may reach unto heaven,” or rather, points to heaven, namely, dedicated to the heavens idolized, or Bel); certainly, of rebellion against God’s will. An earnest of the removal of this penalty was the gift of tongues on Pentecost (Act_2:6-13). The full restoration of the earth’s unity of language and of worship is yet future, and is connected with the restoration of the Jews, to be followed by the conversion of the world. Compare Isa_19:18; Zec_14:9; Rom_15:6, “with one mind and one mouth glorify God.” The Gentiles’ lips have been rendered impure through being the instruments of calling on idols and dishonoring God (compare Psa_16:4; Hos_2:17). Whether Hebrew shall be the one universal language or not, the God of the Hebrews shall be the one only object of worship. Until the Holy Ghost purify the lips, we cannot rightly call upon God (Isa_6:5-7).
I don't know how I feel completely about the commentary remarks. Some points I agree - others I am not sure of. |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 853
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:06 pm: |
|
From Henry:
1. It is promised that there shall be a reformation in men's discourse, which had been generally corrupt, but should now be with grace seasoned with salt (Zep_3:9): “Then will I turn to the people a pure language; I will turn the people to such a language from that evil communication which has almost ruined all good manners among them.” Note, Converting grace refines the language, not by making the phrases witty, but the substance wise. Among the Jews, after the captivity, there needed a reformation of the dialect, for they had mingled the language of Canaan with that of Ashdod (Neh_13:24), and that grievance shall be redressed. But that is not all: their language shall be purified from all profaneness, filthiness, and falsehood. I will turn them to a choice language (so some read it); they shall not speak rashly, but with caution and deliberation; they shall choose out their words. Note, An air of purity and piety in common conversation is a very happy omen to any people; other graces, other blessings, shall be given where God gives a pure language to those who have been a people of unclean lips.
2. That the worship of God, according to his will, shall be more closely applied to, and more unanimously concurred in. Instead of sacrifice and incense, they shall call upon the name of the Lord. Prayer is the spiritual offering with which God must be honoured; and, to prepare and fit us for that duty, it is necessary that we have a pure language. We are utterly unfit to take God's name into our lips, unless they be pure lips. The purifying of the language in common conversation is necessary to the acceptableness of the words of our mouth and the meditation of our heart on our devotion; for how can sweet waters and bitter come out of the same fountain? Jam_3:9-12. It is likewise promised that their language being thus purified they shall serve God with one consent, with one shoulder (so the word is), alluding to oxen in the yoke, that draw even. When Christians are unanimous in the service of God the work goes on cheerfully. This is the effect of the pure language, purified from passion, envy, and censoriousness. Note, Purity is the way to unity; the reformation of manners is the way to a comprehension. The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable. |
skooter942000
Intermediate Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 500
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.221.92
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:20 pm: |
|
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a
pure language, that they may all call upon
the name of the LORD, to serve him with one
consent.
= [FUTURE PROPHECY]
'i' Wonder what LANGUAGE this could be?
Hmmmmmmmmm
[QUIZ]
Anyone Know what the FIRST LANGUAGE WAS?
- HINT/HINT
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen011.html |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1747
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.158.182.215
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 4:28 pm: |
|
I know, I know!!!!
Peace in Christ
c |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 854
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 7:54 pm: |
|
OK what? |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 820
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.157.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 8:37 pm: |
|
t_a_t_m,
I was a JW from 1980-89/90. Never once have I ever heard CTR being refered to as Daddy. In fact, CTR was not really mentioned that much at all. However, it is possible that the practice was done earlier; before Judge Rutherford came on the scene.
None of the publications from 1980-present ever describe CTR as "daddy". I lived as a JW, so I DO know this religion.
While I believe that it is a dangerous cult, I tend to be critical of those who claim to know the "inside" of this organization, yet 1. Have never been involved and 2. do not have all of their information correct.
Realize that this is not an attack on you in particular, rather a feeling that I have in general. |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 855
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:29 pm: |
|
Anyone Know what the FIRST LANGUAGE WAS?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 827
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.157.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:38 pm: |
|
What in the heck does that mean? |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 856
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:56 pm: |
|
I don't know - I'm just trying to figure out the answer to the question of the day.
I'm thinking that the first "WORD" may have something to do with the first "LANGUAGE". |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 857
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:02 am: |
|
OK - I would like to by a vowel.
Any additional clues on what you think this language is or other additional references in the Bible would be appreciated.
I HAVE IT! I HAVE IT! It's "Strong's Concordance!!!"
Just kidding!
I give - what was the first language?
I'll guess again - a language of "faith"? |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1752
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.228.150.187
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:18 am: |
|
What we now call HEBREW |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 858
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:36 am: |
|
Well that occurred to me and I googled similar answers but just wanted to check.
You have to forgive me - the right side of my brain took over and . . . well - the rest is history.
Thanks!
(Message edited by Grace2u on April 12, 2007) |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1755
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.228.150.187
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 1:53 am: |
|
|
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 859
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 7:12 am: |
|
The answer to the question you asked is WAY too hard.
Please, just call me Grace. I'm no longer strange. (Of course that may be debatable.) |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 860
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 7:12 am: |
|
The answer to the question you asked is WAY too hard.
Please, just call me Grace. I'm no longer strange. (Of course that may be debatable.) |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 861
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 7:33 am: |
|
Humor me on this ok?
Last year I made a statement to someone that I thought there was a symbolic underlying language. (Again - maybe this is more of my right brain going a bit to the extreme.) And I said that I thought (I don't know where this came from) that I would set out to learn it. I mean you guys can see it in the word pictures that Jesus painted or perhaps you would call it the metaphors or parables that He used.
So really - when you first started talking about this (the first language that is) my mind went to an underlying language of images that people universally have inside them.
For example - the kingdom of heaven is like . . . (then fill in the blank). Notice how many different pictures Jesus used to try to get people to understand what he was saying? |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1758
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 69.156.151.176
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 1:17 pm: |
|
I know who you are.....
I know who you are.....
Hey Way,
so that's why I liked you.
In His service
c |
skooter942000
Advanced Member
Username: skooter942000
Post Number: 506
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 66.81.219.135
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 2:32 pm: |
|
And the PRIZE goes to - (ALL)- .
- Thanks Ezekiel_37
"WISDOM" is a PRIZE for everyone. (GOD'S WISDOM)
All the languages of this WORLD-AGE,
have evolved from HEBREW. (From this PARENT LANGUAGE)
- It is a proven FACT.
Before the TOWER was built, ONE LANGUAGE PREVAILED.
And in the END, ONE language shall PREVAIL AGAIN.
- Nothing NEW under the SUN - (here) |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 865
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 7:49 pm: |
|
Hey Zeke! Yep and I have always enjoyed you as a poster. Are ya still playing music?
Scooter,
Yea - I used to be afraid of unity until I realized there would ultimately be unity in Christ.
Still, all this discussion and I haven't felt like I have come to a good solid conclusion on this matter. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1764
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.175.151
| | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 9:59 pm: |
|
Hey Stranger,
Yes I am still playing, but not as much as before. My baby boy takes up most of my time.
But that's just the Way I like it.
I think that's Fair,
Peace and Love to You in Christ
c |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 866
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:08 pm: |
|
LOL! I certainly understand. My baby boy thinks he is a man now. 
I would continue this discussion on tongues elsewhere but I'm dealing with trying not to be offended since I've point blank asked someone to share their opinion and understanding on this here and they have ignored me.
Maybe it's because I am a girl.
God Bless! |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 1766
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.231.175.151
| | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:28 pm: |
|
Or maybe it is because "that poster's" opinion is contrary to the Bible.
It could be that there is too much opposition to "that poster's" line of thought on this thread.
This could be a hint as to "that poster's" intention. This poster has posted several posts since your request. Ignoring someone of sincerity (such as yourself) is not a very Christian attitude.
Oh well. Ya can't win em all!
The only other view that I know of besides;
1-an unknown prayer language
2-instructions on how to spread the Gospel through translation/translators
is....
a preacher giving a sermon, and starting to speak mumbo jumbo, and calling it the Holy Spirit's wisdom. Then that same preacher will sometimes translate the supposed wisdom from God, or sometimes they will just speak it, and the practitioners will ASSUME that what the preacher is saying is already translated right there and then.
This is totally unfounded IMHO.
Chow for now
In His service
c |
grace2u
Advanced Member
Username: grace2u
Post Number: 867
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.178.195.217
| | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
|
Sandy,
Is there a reason you will not come out and provide your view? I've spent much time on this and I'm really not interested in going over the same things over and over again. If you have something that will enlighten us because we haven't been looking at this the right way I would appreciate you sharing that. |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 2274
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.229.189.234
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 7:20 pm: |
|
since the speaking in tongues thread is so popular these days, I thought I would bump this page....please read the first 5 posts....
thank-you...
in His service
c |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 715
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 7:45 pm: |
|
quote:Prophecy is both given in Visions and in The Word. A teacher of the Scriptures is called a prophet. There are no more prophets (as there was in the Old Test-possible exception of the future 2 witnesses).
Well, since you brought it up, actually to prophesy in the context of the New Testament church, as spoken of in 1 Cor. 14 is not to foretell the future or speak from the office of prophet. In the New Testament all can prophesy (1 Cor. 14:31). That is, to speak for God and to speak forth God, for the building up of the church, which is the Body of Christ. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 728
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.200.255
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 4:47 am: |
|
EZ 37. Did you bump this up to discuss it, or to get people to read your initial posts? |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1797
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 8:21 am: |
|
A most interesting series of verses in 1 Cor. 14 is 29 - 32. In 29, of course, the Apostle writes "Let two or three prophets speak, and let others discriminate (Gr. diakrino).
And then we have the next three verses, the middle of which the Charismatics grab hold of and use as a kind of parallelism for the practice of tongues as well, i.e. that the Apostle states all may prophesy. But is He really saying "all" in the sense of every Christian, or simply all who, in the service, are graced by God to do so, or, more probably, believe they are so graced? In this case, St. Paul's "all" is not an exhaustive and all inclusive "all", but is rather an "each one" which is reinforced with his use of the phrase "kath ena", lit. "after another" and translated in the KJV "one by one".
If not this latter, then why does the Apostle preface it with the matter of being sure to "discriminate" (or judge) regarding what is spoken?
What the Apostle is providing is not an exposition on the expansiveness and distribution of "spiritual gifts", but of their orderly and appropriate application within the liturgeo of the faithful. This is the general thrust of the whole three chapters of 1 Cor. 14, which Pentecostal/Charismatics too often either separate in coming up with their interpretations or ignore.
As St. John Chrysostom observes:
quote:Ver. 30. "But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence."
Ver. 31. "For you all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."
What may this be which is spoken? "If when you prophesy," says he, "and art speaking, the spirit of another stir him up, be silent thenceforth." For that which he said in the case of the tongues, this also here he requires, that it should be done "in turn," only in a diviner way here. For he made not use of the very expression, "in turn?" but "if a revelation be made to another." Since what need was there further, that when the second was moved to prophesy the first should speak? Ought they then both? Nay, this were profane and would produce confusion. Ought the first? This too were out of place. For to this end when the one was speaking, the Spirit moved the other, in order that he too might say somewhat.
So then, comforting him that had been silenced, he says, "For you all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." Do you see how again he states the reason wherefore he does all things? For if him that speaks with tongues he altogether forbid to speak, when he has not an interpreter, because of the unprofitableness; reasonably also he bids restrain prophecy, if it have not this quality, but creates confusion and disturbance and unseasonable tumult.
Ver. 32. "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."
Do you see how he put him to shame earnestly and fearfully? For that the man might not strive nor be factious, he signifies that the gift itself was under subjection. For by "spirit" here, he means its actual working. But if the spirit be subject, much more thou its possessor canst not justly be contentious.
|
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 729
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.200.255
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:01 am: |
|
Very good mcm. That is a strong argument for what you are saying. It doesn't negate any of the "gifts" or whatever we call them though, such as prophecy or tongues. Well presented though. Nothing in there is incompatable with my beliefs or practice yet though, but I'd be hard pressed (and maybe headed) to prove those said something else.
The "tense" of the word all seems to be where it hinges. I usually take someone's word for it when they put that stuff in because I usually just rely on whatever Bible tools I have anyway. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1799
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:16 am: |
|
Xman, I think it ultimately hinges on what the Apostle meant by "tongues", "prophesy" and even what is translated as "spiritual gifts". The latter term in 1 Cor. 11:1 is actually not the same as what is translated "gifts" in the later verses. The first is pneumatikos, "spirituals", and could as easily been translated "spiritual things". The other references are to charismaton, which is translated "gifts" but which stems from the root for "grace" (charis) with a suffix that indicates "working", i.e. a "grace work" or something that Grace works in and through one.
Of course, just what these "grace works" are and how they are manifested in and through the faithful is the issue. The problem for Pentecostal/Charismatics is their practice informs their interpretation more than the scriptures informing their practice and that in 1900 years of Church history, there has been no interpretation of these scriptures that equates to theirs or to their practices. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3679
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.241.7.129
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:56 am: |
|
tongues is a supernatural lanquage or the lanquages of the angels or the ;anquage that GOD gives to ne as a gift of THE SPIRIT. it, unless it is a person speakng to imself or within his heart has to be interpreted. at any way it is a GIFT OF GOD AND FROM GOD that is all im saying about tongues |
ezekiel_37
Senior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 2275
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 64.229.189.29
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 10:33 am: |
|
EZ 37. Did you bump this up to discuss it, or to get people to read your initial posts?
A little of both, but mainly to get back on track....
question...
to your knowledge, is there a clear biblical example to what you believe is the charismatic (ecstatic) tongue prior to 1 Cor? (FYI)I do not accept that the "Coven Tongue of Fire" seen in Acts was the same as what is practised today....
in His service
c |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 10:51 am: |
|
THIS THREAD IS DOMINATED BY EZEKIEL 37 AND THE BAND OF PREJUDICE BIGOTS OF ANTI SUPERNATURAL, ANTI HOLY SPIRIT AND ANTI HOLY SPIRIT GIFTS PEOPLE.
Jesus is the same yesterday and forever. Hebrews 13:8
According to them God is dead, or at the very best paralyzed.
Every time people make these ridiculous arguments against the CLEARLY available Gifts of the Holy Spirt they make the same silly lame prejudice bigoted arguments over and over with just opinions.
They list a scripture and just give opinions. In order not to be proven wrong, to confuse, or due to ignorance or on purpose they leave out other scriptures, or they misquote or leave out part of the scriptures. Satan did that in the garden and still does.
Again listing scripture and then just listing opinions proves nothing and gives no validity It just displays that same persons ignorance of the bible.
Opinions are not scripture. They are like noseholes everyone has two of them and they smell.
Scripture explains scripture.
They especially SINGLE OUT TONGUES.
Why is tongues singled out above all else?
Why do they hate tongues so much?
Why does satan hate tongues so much?
Why do they always try and ram the same dumb unscriptural lies that tongues is a known language, or tongues died out, or tongues is fruitless, or worse tongues is of the devil etc..when this could not be farther from the scriptural truth.
People all across the world drinking in every bar and tavern do not speak in tongues. ONE OF THE BIGGEST MYTHS pervailing is that only demonic people speak in tongues. This was a lie was started by these same type of anti Holy Spirit people to try and discredit.
There are over twenty one benefits listed in the Bible for the person who prays in tongues.
God gives you an incredible HELPER the Holy Spirit and all His Gifts.
Satan doesn't want you to have the Holy Spirits help and he satan doens't need much help because he's got these guys for his helpers.
Satan doesn't even care as much about tongues in a gathering as much as he wants to stop any believer from praying BECAUSE they are praying the perfect will of God... And in a language he cannot understand.
The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, you have His spirit in you and the Holy Spirit your spirit who prays can only pray perfectly never contradicting His own word.
NOTE THIS: Paul is only saying when you pray in tongues especially when you get a tongue IN A GATHERING then you should INTERPRET the tongue so others can receive the blessing.
Both Tongues and INTERPRETATION IS A VALID LISTED GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT EQUAL TO PROPHECY WHICH IS ALSO A SPIRITUAL GIFT of Holy Spirit inspired utterance of the divine will and purpose of God. To be valid Prophecy and the interpretation of tongues being equal they will always line up with the scriptures and are told to be tested against the scriptures.
It is so simple. The Bible is so simple that you have to have these religious zealots help you misunderstand the Bible. Here Pauls purpose was explaining the principles of how to operate in these "Gifts of the Spirit". Paul was never anti tongues.
Paul was explaining how tongues and interpretation operate. How to benefit from it, both for the individual and in a gathering.
Any believer can operate and benefit from all the gifts of Holy Spirit indoividually or they operate in a gathering or meeting of believers.
The scriptures in 1Cor12, 1Cor 14, Jude 20, Romans 8-26-27 and Romans 12 are so plain and so easy to understand you have to have someone like ezekiel 37 try to confuse you and help you misunderstand them. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3681
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.241.7.129
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:46 am: |
|
trsin heaven
amen |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:51 am: |
|
You have a responsibility as Christian as Jesus said to "be a doer of the word", and that means expecially ALL the word...NOt just a hearer. Jesus said "Only doer of the word will be blessed in his doing"
They have a fear of man above any true trust in Gods word and reverance for God.
Jesus paid the highest price so all who desire can operate in the mighty power of His Spirit. The scriptures state God only gives us good things.
Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
Anti Holy Spirit gifts people see no supernatural manifestation of Gods power to be a true witness of a living God sharing Gods love in others life. Here's the list of the wonderful gifts of the spirit.
There is also listed "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Gifts of Healing, Working of Miracles, Dicerning of Spirits,
HERE Jesus shows you can TRUST YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER that even a good earthly father would not give you something wrong or evil.
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Here JESUS is accused of being the chief of devils just like they accuse those that operate in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit today, cast out devils, lay hands on the sick, pray in tongues today or work miracles today all in the name of Jesus and in the power of His Holy Spirit.
"14And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.
And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.
But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. Luke 11 |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1800
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:00 pm: |
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There is no support from scriptures that the "tongues" in Acts or 1 Corinthians are languages of angels. All the pertinent evidence indicates "tongues" are real human languages. The practice of "prayer language" babbling of non-sensical sounds is at best a psycho-linguistic learned behavior and, at worst, on par with the practices of non-Christian, shamanistic religions.
You can rip all the scriptures you like out of context and attempt to piece them together to support unbiblical practices, but it doesn't change the fact that it is all a farce. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1801
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:02 pm: |
|
Of course, now that TRS and, to a lesser extent, Aaron have joined the discussion on the thread, I fear it will simply degenerate into another copy/paste, castigate and attempt to bully those who disagree with the Pentecostal/Charismatic warping of scriptures. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1802
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:18 pm: |
|
The following is a somewhat modified, edited version of an argument presented by Dr. Nick Needham on the "Toronto Blessing". The essential thrust of his argument is not changed...
quote:The argument is that Pentecostal/Charismatic experiences must come from God, because He would not allow His children to receive false experiences when they ask Him for the Holy Spirit. But this argument really cuts no ice. What exactly are people desiring or asking for or expecting in a Pentecostal/Charismatic meeting or when they want to be “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (in the Pentecostal/Charismatic perspective) and speak or “pray” in “other tongues”? The answer is, a certain type of experience. In their own minds they have identified the Holy Spirit with certain types of experiences, usually involving physical or psychological manifestations. So, when an anointed leader "calls down the Holy Spirit," or when a Pentecostal/Charismatic follower asks to be “baptized with the Spirit”, what they are meaning is that they certain experiences and manifestations now to take place in the meeting or in their lives. This is what people are "asking God for." The very asking, in other words, takes it for granted that the various emotional and physical experiences of the Pentecostal/Charismatic are the Holy Spirit at work.
But we have seen many reasons to believe that rather than the Holy Spirit, there are other forces at work. This kind of "asking the Father for the Spirit" is therefore a religious delusion from the very outset. It is therefore not very surprising that those who open themselves up to the “Spirit”, on the false understanding that He will manifest His power through a certain experiences, then undergo that false experience.
Why did God not protect His child from the counterfeit experience, vis. Luke 11:11? Because the child was already deceived. We have a personal responsibility to test the spirits (1 John 4:1). If we do not carry out that responsibility by searching the Scriptures carefully and submissively, and testing everything against what Scripture clearly teaches and the Church has always believed, we cannot blame God if we then fall into deception and bogus experiences. That would be like blaming God for not protecting us against electrocution if we fooled about trying to fix a generator, without carefully studying the technical manual.
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matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 4257
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:57 pm: |
|
Opinions are not scripture. They are like noseholes everyone has two of them and they smell.
This was absolutely stupid the first time you used it. But the 20th time? Give us a break. And if you are too afraid to use the statement in it original form, just leave your silly 'sanitized version' in your copy and paste file. You continue to embarrass yourself, and you seem oblivious to it. In your attempt to convince people of your 'opinion' you end up doing more harm than good. I guess I should be thanking you actually. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:32 pm: |
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Mattie,
The other thing that invariably comes from these Pentecostal apologists is how their critics always focus on "tongues". They then use this to reinforce the ludicrous belief that there gibberish is "tongues" and "satan hates tongues". Yes, Satan hates true tongues, that is, the Gospel preached in a language people can understand. But he loves the deceptive gibberish that is engaged in by Pentecostals. Why? Because by these he keeps then carnal, focused on experiences so that they will not seek after the truth of God as revealed in the Incarnate Son. They will not humble themselves and turn from their own ways, opinions, carnal experiences, but continue to seek after the sensual experiences offered them by "tongues" and other charismaniac phenomena.
The truth is, opponents of Pentecostal/Charismatic teachings focus on "tongues" is because the Pentecostals/Charismatics do!!!. Of course, this obvious fact gets lost in the persecution complex that they develop and becomes, as does the lack of evidence for conspiracy theorists, just something else they use to support they're being "persecuted" and "hated". May God forgive us all! |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1320
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 1:07 pm: |
|
aaron,
THE SCRIPTURES LISTS AND EXPLAINS ALL THE BENEFITS OF PRAYING IN TONGUES AND INTERPRETATION.
The scriptures tell us as Paul tells all to not just pray in tongues but to interpret for the two together equals prophecy.
1 Corinthians 14
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, ....
2For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him(BECAUSE HE SPEAKS IN A UNKNOWN SPIRITUAL REALM LANGUAGE); howbeit in the spirit(IN THE SPIRIT) he speaketh mysteries. ....
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;....
5I would that ye all spake with tongues
(IN A GATHERING HE SHOULD INTERPRET OR SOMEONE SHOULD INTERPRET) except he interpret, SO that the church may receive edifying.
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except (WITH AND INTERPRETATION)I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? (INTERPRETATION COMES FROM A DISTINCT UNDERSTOOD SOUND AND WILL BE UNDERSTOOD-just as is a known language.)
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, (THE HOLY SPIRIT BORN AGAIN SPIRIT PRAYS) but my understanding is unfruitful.(UNLESS ONE INTERPRETS)
15What is it then?
I will pray with the spirit,(PRAY IN THE HOLY SPIRITS SPIRITUAL LANGUAGE WHAT THE BIBLE CALLS TONGUES) and I will pray with the understanding also:(INTERPRET IN AND PRAY IN ONES KNOWN LANGUAGE) I will sing with the spirit,(SING IN THE HOLY SPIRITS LANGUAGE WHAT THE BILBLE CALLS TONGUES) and I will sing with the understanding also. (INTERPRET IN AND SING IN ONES KNOWN LANGUAGE).
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit,(PRAYING AND SINGING IN TONGUES BLESSES is speaking a blessing AND GIVES THANKS TO GOD) how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks (HERE THE VERSE SAYS TONGUES ALSO IS PRAISE "GIVING OF THANKS") seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? (SO THIS IS WHY INTERPRETATION IS DONE).
17For thou verily givest thanks well,(AGAIN ANOTHER VERSEn SHOWING TONGUES IS PRAISE GIVING THANKS)but the other is not edified.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Paul says he speaks in tongues more than all these Christians. He lists ALL THE BENEFITS OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES througut his epistles and he SPOKE IN TONGUES ALL THE TIME BECAUSE OF ALL ITS BENEFITS. That is why he says he spoke in tongues more than any of you or all of you put together;
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. (BE MATURE IN UNDERSTANDING GODS WORD, FOR IT IS SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED) |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 1:09 pm: |
|
CONT...
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign,(THE ORIGIANL GREEK READS TONGUES IS A SUPERNATURAL SIGN, one of many, to unbelievers also) not to them that believe, but to them that believe notthat the kingdom has come but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. ....
"Tongues And Interpretation together which is equal to prophecy or Prophecy is a supernatural sign to an unbeliever or untaught outsider comes in, he is told of his sin and reproved and convicted and convinced by all, and his defects and needs are examined (estimated, determined) and he is called to account by all,
25The secrets of his heart are laid bare; and so, falling on [his] face, he will worship God, declaring that God is among you in very truth.
TONGUES AND INTERPRETATION OR PROPHECY SUPERNATUTALLY AND EQUALLY REPROVES, CONVICTS, CONVINCINCES AN UNBELIEVER OR UNTAUGHT OUTSIDER OF THEIR DEFECTS and his defects and needs are examined (estimated, determined) and he is called to account by all,AND The secrets of his heart are laid bare; and so, falling on [his] face, he will worship God, declaring that God is among you in very truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying. (Tongues with interpretation in a meeting gathering edifies.)
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (IF you give a tongue in meeting you must prophecy).
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker's control [and subject to their control and able to be silenced as may be necessary],
39So [to conclude], my brethren, earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God's will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues.
DO NOT FORBID OR HINDER SPEAKING IN TONGUES(WITH ALL ITS MANY BENEFITS.
Every Christian, every person is limited by their mind and knowledge limitations.
Thus the Holy Spirit helps all the limitations of the mind and its limited knowledge. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1323
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 1:13 pm: |
|
cont...
Praying according to the will the will of God is praying the perfect will of God
"So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness;(our limited knowldge, understanding and mind) for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it correctly or worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for the minds limited intelligible speech and utterance.
27And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to Gods will and in harmony with God's will." Romans 8
The Holy Spirit helps our limited self, our limited knowledge of Gods word, Gods will, and limited ability. The Holy Spirit prays perfectly when we pray in tongues, for it is our the Holy Spirit in us our born again spirit, the same Holy Spirit that wrote the Bible, who knows ALL things, who can only pray according to the will of God which is the word of God.
Paul wants all to BENEFIT AND TO operate in all the gifts correctly for its best profit and to all speak in tongues pray in tongues, sing in tongues to RECEIVE ALL ITS SUPERNATURAL BENEFITS.
The scriptures in 1Cor14 give the structure to folow in order to receive the MOST benefit. 40But it is possible for all things that should and can be done with regard to decency and propriety and in an orderly fashion for its blessing and benefit. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3682
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 75.136.158.248
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 1:55 pm: |
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i still believe in the benefits tonuges give the believers, i still believe it is from GOD AND THE HOLY GHOST gives it. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 1:58 pm: |
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TRS, you don't ever actually deal with what others write in response, do you? The word "unknown" is not in the original text in 1 Cor. It is an interpretative interjection by the translator.
"Tongues"="languages" - plain and simple. "Other tongues" simply means either a people or a language other than Hebrews. As the Prophet Isaiah writes "For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory." (Isa 66:18)
You've offered nothing new to the conversation that hasn't already been responded to. Just the umpteenth iteration of a tired argument as if by saying it over and over that will make it true. (Well, kind of like the very practice of modern "tongues" - a myriad of nonsensical syllables that are perceived, by their very volume, to have some significance when they actually have none.) |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1326
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:02 pm: |
|
mcmstaff,
I showed over a half dozen benefits praying in the spirit ( tongues) that is in the scriptures which is just a small portion of the many benefits the Holy Spirit gives and helps our limited physical minds, knowledge, and understanding.
Question:
Is God a supernatural God?
Is God in the physical realm or in the spiritual realm?
What supernatural manifestations of benefit have you seen from God? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 732
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.200.255
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 6:06 am: |
|
"Tongues"="languages" - plain and simple. "Other tongues" simply means either a people or a language other than Hebrews. As the Prophet Isaiah writes "For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory." (Isa 66:18)
OK mcm. I've seen this presented several times and like I said, I usually defer to those who know and apply the original language or correct meanings from and have no problem accepting the facts, if that's what they are.
Is there anything in that definition or view which emphatically says that there is a no possibility that a tongue that is unknown to any people or culture on the planet is included? I am not at all convinced that "our" (loosely speaking since there is some variety in our beliefs here) view on what tongues includes is excluded by this.
In my experience (that evil experience thing again, I know) I have spoken in tongues which were not interpreted most of the time, and certainly almost all the time in my own personal praying. In public settings, however, I have also had "my" tongues interpreted as clear known languages that I do not know. Notably both Spanish and Russian. I was able to confirm in one instance, and once only I admit, that this interpretation was correct. It's not a common occurance for me (though publically praying in tongues is also not a common occurance for me either) by any stretch however, and I do not interperate tongues personally.
I guess I maintain that tongues includes both aspects. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 11:16 am: |
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There is no reason to believe that tongues are "unknown languages". Quite honestly, and not to impugn anything you've written Xman, but I've often heard stories from people about speaking in tongues in a real language that was interpreted by a person who actually knew the language and it has never been born out.
William Samarin, a noted linguist, collected hundreds of samples of "tongues" on tape and studied them and not one had any of the characteristics of a language. IOW, not simply were they no known earthly language, but they displayed none of the characteristics of language, period. They were not "heavenly" languages, they were simply learned syllables strung together. Sometimes the words or syllables would sound like a real language, but were never actually any real language. The interesting thing is that modern "tongues" tend to sound the same in any given geographic area. But take "tongues" from Korea and tongues from US Georgia, and you never find any similarities. Just more evidence that these are learned phenomena and practices that arise from the individual's own knowledge, not any kind of supernatural "heavenly" language.
The "tongues" in the NT are languages known to men as evidenced in Acts 2. There is no evidence, from scriptures, to assert that the tongues of 1 Cor is different than that of Acts. It is a position totally unknown in the Christian world until the rise of the "prayer language" teaching stemming out of the New Order of the Latter Rain "revival". The teaching on "prayer language" stemmed out of the need to justify a clearly unbiblical practice - the mass praying in "tongues" in charismatic meetings with no "interpretation". Just another case of Pentecostal/Charismatic experience driving the need to piece together scriptural support out of whole cloth. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1815
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 11:26 am: |
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Well TRS, you posted some scriptures, interspersed with your interpretation of what they mean, but no, you didn't really provide any "benefit".
The "tongues" of Pentecostals/Charismatics undoubtedly provide them with a certain psychological benefit. That is why they do it. Lots of studies out there on that. But is it "supernatural"? Probably not 99.99999% of it. And the other .00001%? Well, prior to the early to mid-19th century, anyone engaging in the actions common among Pentecostals/Charismatics these days would have been perceived to be demonized. The Spirit bloweth where He listeth, but He is certainly not a God of chaos and disorder and babel (the whole thrust of 1 Cor. 12-14, BTW).
"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 722
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 75.167.161.159
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 11:42 am: |
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A few years ago I bought a used car. It was a Dodge Caravan. After just a few months it broke down. As the tow truck pulled the piece of junk away from our apartment complex toward the junkyard, I spoke a tongue.
I turned to my wife and said....
"shouldaboughtahonda"
If there is a "tongue of angels" then why were so many Biblical personalities able to understand them when they spoke? |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1327
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 1:03 pm: |
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xman3,
Anyone who utters prays or sings "in the spirit" or "tongues" can interpret what they are saying.
To do this they just need to "ask" for "we receive not because we ask not".
When you pray "in the spirit" personally you just ask the Holy Spirit for the interpretation and you will receive it. When first starting out you might not hear your heart as easy. The more you listen to your spirit the more sensitive you get to hearing "that still small voice of the Holy Spirit".
Interpretation of tongues whether your personal devotion prayer or in a gathering is available to all who would ask and receive.
"interpretation of tongues" in 1Cor. 12:10: The gift of interpreting the gift of tongues is not a translation but an interpretation. That is, it just conveys the thought of what was said into the known language. Therefore, the interpretation may be longer or shorter than the message in tongues and differ in style and yet be the proper interpretation. When the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation of tongues operate together, that is equal to prophecy
First we must remember it is just an interpretation not a word for word recitation but a general understanding of the interpreter, and limited by the understanding, knowledge, education, experience and training. It is just an interpretation.
Five different people hearing the same thing at the same time would have five similar but not EXACTLY word for word intepretation but different interpretations varying in different degrees. The main thought would be there.
When anyone interprets a language since every language is different the exact words might take ten words in the other langurage to explain the meaning of that word. The Greek language is a great example. In English we have one word for love in Greek we have FOUR main words for love and a few others that have the meaning of love, meaning a minimum of four different types of love. Other words in Greek anda in man other languages take a sentence of english words to define what is said since english is not as specific.
THE CONTEXT and the EXACT wording MAKES IT CRYSTAL CLEAR that tongues is a language NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. The error pushers and liars focus on ONE WORD AND MISS THE WHOLE SENTENCE, the complete MEANING, AND CONTEXT OF TONGUES AND INTERPRETATION ALONG WITH PROPHECY BEING EXPLAINED, DEFINED, AND COMPARED ALONG WITH ITS CORRECT USAGES.
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: FOR NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM; HOW BE IT IN THE SPIRIT HE SPEAKS MYSTERIES." 1Cor14:2
The verse in the passage says a language that "NO MAN UNDERSTANDS"
A language NO MAN UNDERSTANDS IS A LANGUAGE THAT IS NOT EARTHLY does not exist as known language.
The verse continues to say when we speak in tongues "IN THE SPIRIT WE SPEAK MYSTERIES".
There are four clarifications this scripture makes here.
1. "speaketh not unto men, but unto God"
(not speaking to men-but an unknown language not being understood by men, but by God)
2. In a language "NO MAN UNDERSTANDS" (unknown language known by any person)
3. we speak "in the Spirit" (the Holy Spirit is doing the speaking in tongues (in the Spirit).
4. we are in the spirit speaking "MYSTERIES."
"divine revelations" from God not known by man. Paul made it clear that divine revelation of the mysteries of God came through the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:10). |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1819
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 2:50 pm: |
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1 Cor. 14:2 - The clear implication of this is that no man present understands him not no one in the whole world doesn't understand. The whole passage is about activities in a gathering of the faithful. If you ignore that point you are just reading whatever you want into the passage.
And you have place "he speaketh not unto meth, but unto God" first, implying that this is the purpose, but there's a little word in there, "for" that illuminates the meaning. The purpose of "tongues" is not to speak to God, but a person who speaks in tongues in a meeting (with no interpretation) is speaking not to men but to God because (for) no one present understand him. This is obviously so because the Apostle reiterates his point in verse 9 where he states "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
So, verse 2 reads "For he that speaketh in an unknown [not in the Greek - but the implication is unknown to those present, not entirely unknown to the whole world] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
He's speaking unto God because no one there understands him.
Then TRS tries to change "in the spirit he (i.e. the individual) speaketh" to "the Holy Spirit speaketh". If the Apostle wanted to communicate that it was the Holy Spirit speaking mysteries who could have said that. And they are "mysteries" because people don't understand what is being said - not innate mysteries or "divine revelations". This is just more twisting of scriptures out of context and making them mean what one wants.
Oh, and the Greek worker translated "interpretation" is Hermeneia, from the same root as Hermeneuo, which is found three times in the Gospel of John and once in Hebrews, all four of which have the meaning of translation.
John 1:38 "Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?"
John 1:42 "And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone."
John 9:7 "And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing."
Heb 7:1-2 "For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;"
So the best scriptural evidence is that the word in 1 Cor. should also be understood more as "translation" then some inspired "interpretation" that may or may not be based literally on what is being said. Interesting thing about those who claim a "gift of interpretation" - a researcher had tape recorded various "messages" in tongues from services in which there was also an "interpretation". He then played it back for a number of different people who claimed to "operate" in the "gift of interpretation". Each time, the "interpretation" was totally different from any of the others. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1329
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 5:21 pm: |
|
mcm,
So now you prove that you don't know what the Bible says a born again spirit is made from and has in it and consists of. Where did you learn such total JUNK?
You are filled with all this propaganda. Learn the rest of the Bible. Oh I forgot you can't because it is 'spiritually discerned' and you are religiously helped to misunderstand it spiritually blind. Jesus said the Holy Spirit gives us all understanding of the Bible.
No man understands tongues unless they interpret. The scripture is clear you have to take a flying leap and stretch it and add to it what is not there to try and make it say what it does not.
You also conveniently AVOIDED and did not answer the questions we put to you up above.
Question: Give scriptural proofs and answer these simple Biblical 101 questions.
Is God a supernatural God?
Is God in the physical realm or in the spiritual realm?
What supernatural manifestations of benefit have you seen from God?
What and who are you? How many parts do you consist of? What or Who made them?
How did Jesus heal by what power?
FMOI What is your background? What type of church or denomination do you attend. Baptist???
UNDERSTAND THIS: The Holy Spirit is our spirit if we are born again. You sure are scripturally ignorant for someone so puffed up like an intellectual.
READ
"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
You sure do not know much scripture.
A little Bible knowledge is dangerous and ignorant.
The scripture states above in black and white that any person who is born again has the Spirit of Christ.
The Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit.
They are one. The Father, Son and Holy Spiri are all one. We don't have Jesus here in the flesh we have His Spirit in us and around us that was poured out given manifested on pentecost.
NOW Read the rest of that scripture.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
Read this one.
"The Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11
You are so obviouly have such small Bible knowledge and then indoctrinated with classic confused backward knowledge dead religion and not truth that you are in mental bondage.
Don't hurt your head now.
You twist the exact original Greek and King James english tranlations more than many of the Holy Spirit haters I have met.
The Holy Spirit in us speaks.
A Born again spirit is born from above the Holy Spirit.
You can't put NEW WINE into OLDS WINESKINS Jesus said.
That is the only thing saved that contains salvation immortality in you.
NOW HERE'S an easy one for you FIND the scriptures that explain what your born again spirit is made up of.
Here's some hints.
The Holy Spirit made it. You are a new creation. The old man is DEAD.
You received 'eternal life' when you were born again. Eternal death left. The soul must be saved and a new body given to eventually after death replace the mortal one according to scriptures.
Your body is mortal the spirit lives forever.
(Message edited by trsrinheaven on October 22, 2007) |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1330
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 5:44 pm: |
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cont...
This is BIBLE 101, from the original Greek from scholars that know the others and the rest of the scriptures concerning and explaining that the born again person is one that has the Holy Spirit that makes up his spirit "the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God]."
"But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God]. Romans 8:9
When you have only such a baby Christian understanding it is time consuming to bring you up to speed.
Especially such a one that is so unteachable, propaganda set and indoctrinated with religious bull and not mature in the scriptures or skilled in the word.
If I go too fast just let me know... |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1821
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 7:04 pm: |
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TRS, like so many self-proclaimed biblical "experts", all you've done is string together unrelated passages to make the scriptures seem to teach your opinions. You quote the Amplified version like it is the scriptures, rather than simply someone else's interpretation. Those things in the brackets [] are simply their interpretation - not the scriptures themselves.
BTW, since we're taking examinations here, what did Jesus' message regarding wine and wineskins have to do with? Look at the context now. I'll give you a hint - it was not the Holy Spirit as so many Charismaniacs misinterpret. Just one more example of ripping the scriptures out of context to make them seem to mean what you'd like.
Just because a true Christian has the Spirit of God does not make his spirit and the Holy Spirit synonymous. You're engaging in a categorical fallacy.
Question for you TRS: do you sin? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 733
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.200.255
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 7:52 pm: |
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Anyone who utters prays or sings "in the spirit" or "tongues" can interpret what they are saying.
TRS- I know that's what the Bible says. I have asked. I do not interperate at this point. I will know it, I believe, if I get any interpretations though.
I also do not consider what someone's subjective interpretation is of their own tongues or someone else's as necessarily valid. Like prophecy, it is subjective and usually can not be verified. If I've heard 1000 people speak in toungues in 10,000 instances, I've only seen a small handful of interpretations even attempted, much less verified in any way. I've also seen a lot more stuff than that handful that was off the wall to me.
Besides, you don't have to convince me of anything. I already speak in tongues and know everything you are saying backwards and forwards. I've been around a lot of years too you know. The things we differ on here aren't worth disucussing most likely. I am interested in what the opponents of tongues think and why. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 734
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.200.255
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 7:54 pm: |
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MCM- First the study. Both you and tatm refer to this study, and i'm sure it took place as you say. First I will say that he didn't record my tongues, so it is interesting but not definitive to me in that regard. I'll just say my tongues are unique.
Secondly, it seems possible that tongues could be "structured" in a fashion that would not resemble an earthly tongue and therefore produce that result. Weak argument perhaps, but possible.
Third, I tend to agree that a lot of what is passed off as tongues is possibly simply some contrived babel. I've seen the pressure exerted on folks to get them to speak in tongues and I wonder about a lot of it. Sometimes it's the most vocal proponents of it's importance that are probably the least qualified to teach and demonstrate. I don't argue that everyone who claims to speak in tongues actually is doing so. I don't know actually.
I find the study enlightening to be sure, but I do not find it compelling in and of itself. Using my magical charismatic abilities, I am still able to fit my beliefs in things even if it were completely true.
I understand your view on experience. I've seen enough malarky myself to question a lot of it. Most spiritual things can not be verified to anyone's satisfaction. That's not always the case, but it seems to be mostly true and, I believe, the way God wants it. I certainly can't "prove" a lot of what I believe. I can say though, that in one incident what I was praying for was specific enough and completely out of my knowledge enough that the interpretation was either right or wrong. I was able to verify it to my satisfaction.
As for the other specifics, I'm going to have to ponder them a bit. I have no initial thought on the statement about there being no difference in the tongues from Acts2 and 1Cor and those things. I must actually see if those things matter in my thinking or not. I certainly do use the common verses to support what I do believe, along with other priciples and things I don't see talked about as much. I'm going to reread those other posts more carefully. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 723
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 6:44 pm: |
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Years ago I worked for a certain Christian television network, in their corporate office. On the third floor of this office they had a room set aside for prayer and meditation. It was appropriately called the "Prayer Tower."
One day I went up there with a few of my co-workers to pray. I thought we were going to pray together, but when we sat down they all started speaking in tongues. Although I was very confused I sat there and quietly prayed to myself. Afterward I asked one of the co-workers what that was all about. She told me that I needed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit before I could understand, and that next time I should ask the Lord to "open my mouth" so I could speak in tongues. She suggested the next time I went with them to pray that I should open my mouth and let the Lord fill it. Then, she said, if that didn't work, I should just "start speaking anything" and the Lord would eventually begin to speak through me in a language that i didn't understand.
Needless to say, I didn't go back a second time. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3684
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 75.136.158.248
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 12:48 pm: |
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lover of CHRIST no where are we told to just open our mouth and start speaking. IF GOD (THE HOLY GHOst ) doenst spek through you it is not of GOD , there is the baptisium of THE HOLY GHOST AND you will speak in tongue when you receve the baptisum. bt to just start saying anything is not of GOD. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 731
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 2:59 pm: |
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Exactly my point. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1331
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 5:14 pm: |
|
TONGUES SCRIPTURAL PROOF AND VALIDITY.
We know that some will never be in agreement with the move of the Holy Spirit and will fight against the giftings that God has given to the church because they are religiously indoctrinated with opinions, they do not want to be responsible of the truth if their theories are wrong, and or they simply do not understand the Spirit realm.
They are content to relegate the things of God to the MENTAL arena. Anything beyond their own limited capability to understand will be seen as a threat. (1 Cor. 2:14)
Nevertheless, there are millions around the world and stretching back to the day of Pentecost who have experienced this incredible empowering of the Holy Spirit, even some who denied it existed or had declared that it wasn’t for today.
There have been abuses to be sure, and examples of the flesh trying to imitate the things of the Spirit. There have also been those whose character has not reflected the fruit of the Spirit while the gifts were seemingly evident in their lives. However, we must base our beliefs on scripture and not on experience, unless our experience confirms what is written, as in the case of healings and miracles and tongues.
To begin with, all must agree that tongues were given to the church for the church age.
They were God’s idea and not man’s. We will not attempt at this time to prove that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, and will limit our discussion to that of tongues in particular.
In 1 Cor. 12:10 we find the phrase, ‘kinds of tongues.’ This can refer to natural languages as some would suggest, or could also refer to a differentiation between the tongues of men and the tongues of angels (heavenly languages) (1 Cor. 13:1).
Paul declares that though he speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not love, it is worthless. We understand that love is the correct motivation for these manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit. Since Paul had just mentioned kinds of tongues and diversities of tongues (1 Cor. 12:28), and then immediately mentions tongues of men and of angels, it isn’t a stretch to assume that he is considering the tongues of angels as an option. If not, then he would have only mentioned the different kinds of earthly languages, since heavenly languages were out of the question and not part of the discussion.
When we come to 1 Cor. 14:2, the context is clear. He that speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. In other words, the message or prayer in tongues is directed toward God alone and not toward man. Why would God anoint someone to speak in an earthly language he did not learn, and have him speak it unless a speaker of that language was present? Those who dissent will point out that the Spirit gives these gifts as He will, but then turn around in this case and say that the Spirit must have made a mistake because there is no one there to hear this particular earthly language. Can you see the contradiction?
No, the statement stands on its own. He that speaks in a tongue speaks NOT TO MEN, but unto God, howbeit (because, or for the following reason) in the spirit he speaks mysteries. Rom. 8:26 will confirm this. “Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
Those groanings cannot be uttered with known speech but most certainly refer to the ‘mysteries’ stated that are being directed toward God, the intercession of the Spirit on our behalf. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 5:18 pm: |
|
CONTINUED...
CONCLUSION
1 Cor. 14:4 declares that he that speaks in tongues edifies himself. (HIMSELF)
This is a conclusive argument against the dissenters who would claim that such a person is speaking an unlearned earthly language that should only be spoken in the hearing of one who knows that language. How can speaking an earthly language that you do not know edify you?
It can’t if it is merely an earthly language meant to be interpreted by another. If it were a tongue meant for a group the verse would read something like this. ‘He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies the church when there is an interpretation, but is wasting his breath if there isn’t.’ Plus, why would the Spirit be giving out this gift as He will if there is none there to interpret? |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 732
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:51 am: |
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"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal." (1 Cor. 13:1)
Some use this verse to support the claim that Paul spoke in the tongues of angels, and so that explains why the Pentecostal tongues cannot be interpreted by any earthly language. However, the verse does not support the argument for two reasons.
First is the most obvious, Paul used the word "ean," which is appropriately translated, "if," or, "in case." The KJV errs translating the word, "though."
Second is the fact that Paul is not making the point that he can speak in the tongues of angels, so it's really irrelevant whether he can or not. The point of Paul's argument in the passage is that love is the required element for exercising the spiritual gifts.
So Paul is not arguing that there is a tongue if angels, nor is he arguing that he can speak in tongues of angels. He is merely using this as an example of how love is needed to exercize the gifts of the Body. If Paul had written "If I drink tea" we would not need to assume that Paul drank tea. Also notice that in the subsequent verses Paul uses the same term "if." He writes, "If" I have the gift of prophesy..."if" I have all faith so as to to remove mountains..."if" I dole out all my possessions..."if" I 1deliver up my body..." These things Paul is not claiming to have or to have done, but he uses them as examples to show that "if" he did those things without love, then his effort is worthless.
Now, no doubt that Paul seems to be indicating that angels have their own tongue. God, after all, is the creator of all languages. But that being the case, it is contrary to God's nature to have created something that cannot be comprehended by His creation in some fashion. And given the fact that man was created as the center and peak of God's entire creation, it seems contrary to say that tongues of angels cannot or should not be comprehended or understood by man.
So in conclusion, the types of tongues being promoted by the various charismatics as being the tongues of angels, or a "special language" shared only between God and the individual believer, is simply not supported in any way by the Scriptures. God does not author confusion (It's interesting to note that the word "confusion" can also mean "instability." Also that it is used in contrast to 1 Cor. 14:40.). He does not create situations in the church where disorder and confusion are the "norm." Man creates that confusion. And that's really the purpose of Paul's message in 1 Cor. 14. Not anything else. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 733
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:13 pm: |
|
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal." (1 Cor. 13:1)
Some use this verse to support the claim that Paul spoke in the tongues of angels, and so that explains why the Pentecostal tongues cannot be interpreted by any earthly language. However, the verse does not support the argument for two reasons.
First is the most obvious, Paul used the word "ean," which is appropriately translated, "if," or, "in case." The KJV errs translating the word, "though."
Second is the fact that Paul is not making the point that he can speak in the tongues of angels, so it's really irrelevant whether he can or not. The point of Paul's argument in the passage is that love is the required element for exercising the spiritual gifts.
So Paul is not arguing that there is a tongue if angels, nor is he arguing that he can speak in tongues of angels. He is merely using this as an example of how love is needed to exercize the gifts of the Body. If Paul had written "If I drink tea" we would not need to assume that Paul drank tea. Also notice that in the subsequent verses Paul uses the same term "if." He writes, "If" I have the gift of prophesy..."if" I have all faith so as to to remove mountains..."if" I dole out all my possessions..."if" I 1deliver up my body..." These things Paul is not claiming to have or to have done, but he uses them as examples to show that "if" he did those things without love, then his effort is worthless.
Now, no doubt that Paul seems to be indicating that angels have their own tongue. God, after all, is the creator of all languages. But that being the case, it is contrary to God's nature to have created something that cannot be comprehended by His creation in some fashion. And given the fact that man was created as the center and peak of God's entire creation, it seems contrary to say that tongues of angels cannot or should not be comprehended or understood by man.
So in conclusion, the types of tongues being promoted by the various charismatics as being the tongues of angels, or a "special language" shared only between God and the individual believer, is simply not supported in any way by the Scriptures. God does not author confusion (It's interesting to note that the word "confusion" can also mean "instability." Also that it is used in contrast to 1 Cor. 14:40.). He does not create situations in the church where disorder and confusion are the "norm." Man creates that confusion. And that's really the purpose of Paul's message in 1 Cor. 14. Not anything else. |
lema_nal
Intermediate Member
Username: lema_nal
Post Number: 186
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.250.190.20
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:11 pm: |
|
Well, when some Pentecostals read 1 Cor. 14, they pay too much attention to speaking in tongues. When the Local Church members read this chapter, they see only prophesying there. However, the prophesying that Paul wrote about is absolutely different from "prophesies" in the Local Church. In the Local Church, "to prophesy" means "to speak the Local Church teaching (mainly, Witness Lee's teaching)". For sure, Paul did not mean that. Prophesy in the Bible is a direct revelation from God. It is not speaking any human teachings, especially Witness Lee's.
1 Cor. 14:29-30: "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent."
Paul wrote that only two or three prophets can speak in the church meeting. However, in the Local Church, at least, ten times more people "prophesy" in every meeting.
Then, Paul says that a prophet may receive a new revelation while another one is speaking. In the Local Church, members come to the meeings with prepared "prophesy" composed from Witness Lee's books. They are simply unable to receive a sudden revelation from God. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3685
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 75.136.158.248
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:48 pm: |
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i dont know of any pentcostal church that follows lees teaching i had never even heard of him untill here . i speaking in tongues and i prophecy and it is not according to lees theaching. prophecying lifts up the person or tells of something yet to come ( that always agrees with the bible) and is never of man or of ones self. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 737
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:58 pm: |
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Lema_Nal,
Witness Lee and the Local Church are not the subject of this thread. If you like you may address this subject in the appropriate forum. Do not try to create distractions. |
bro_derrick
Senior Member
Username: bro_derrick
Post Number: 1717
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 70.216.0.38
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 3:46 pm: |
|
"Well, when some Pentecostals read 1 Cor. 14, they pay too much attention to speaking in tongues. When the Local Church members read this chapter, they see only prophesying there."
As the first verse shows, Ch 14 is about charity, spiritual gifts, and prophesy.
Tongues are used as a vehicle to teach on the more important topic of Christian assembly, where charity, spiritual gifts, and prophecy ought be on full display.
The Corinthians (like all Chrstians) were wanting to love God and one another more, but they were being adversely affected by an overemphasis on personal spiritual gifts.
Paul was redirecting the proper focus of our assembly to share God's love through PROPHECY (v 3-4), which includes speaking in tongues that are interpreted by another.
(Personal unknown tongues in prayer are to be kept in the closet where it edifies the one praying, but is NOT edifying to others, who have no way of knowing what we are saying, even if it shows how spiritual we are.)
In our prayer closet such praying in the Holy Ghost builds us up in God's love (Jude 20-21), but in assembly such tongue-talking shows us off contrary to God's charity(!) |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:33 pm: |
|
The apostle John gave a warning that is imperative for all to heed in these last days: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” I Jn. 4:1.
With the same love and concern for souls that caused John to give this warning, so we write this article.
Many today testify to be “speaking in tongues.” Is this being promoted by a spirit which is “of God” or is it “another spirit” (II Cor. 11:4)? A careful study of the New Testament reveals that modern tongues is without scriptural foundation. By the Word of God, it is proven to be error by the following:
1. The Greek word glossa means either language or the organ of speech. Confusion could be cleared up by replacing the word tongue(s) in the Bible with the word language(s). “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other ‘languages’ as the Spirit gave them utterance.” It is error to give tongues a different meaning other than an intelligible language.
2. Modern tongues advocates frequently teach that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no such teaching in the Bible. It also seems strange that those with this alleged gift can still speak in it when they backslide. Are we to presume they still have the Holy Spirit?
3. Contrary to the teaching that tongues is for all believers, Paul tells us in I Cor. 12:4-11, 18, 27-31, that the true gift of speaking in foreign languages is not. “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations . . . for to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom . . . to another the gifts of healing . . . to another prophecy . . . to another divers kinds of tongues . . . Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? . . . do all speak with tongues?” When we understand the context of these scriptures, the answer is clearly NO! All do not speak in languages, just as all are not given the gift of teaching or prophecy.
4. The authentic gift, as received on the day of Pentecost, enabled the disciples to speak forth “the wonderful works of God” in various foreign languages. This greatly advanced the spread of the gospel on that day, as there was a great multitude there “out of every nation under heaven . . . every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed . . . saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own language, wherein we were born?” This ability to speak in these foreign languages was given to communicate the gospel. This, and this only, is what the gift of tongues is.
5. There are a number of incidences in the Bible where believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, and no mention is made of speaking in tongues (Cf. Acts 4:8, 31; 7:55; 8:17; 9:17; 13:9).
6. Jesus never spoke in “tongues” and He had the fullness of the Spirit. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1826
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:34 pm: |
|
7. It is error to say that unknown (unintelligible to man) tongues are given by the Holy Spirit. In I Cor. 14:2, 4, 13-14 the word unknown is italicized in most copies of the authorized version, which indicates that it is not found in the original Greek. Confusion can be cleared up by leaving out the word unknown in I Cor. 14, or inserting the word foreign instead.
8. “For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.” I Cor. 14:14. Contrary to false beliefs, this scripture is not advocating a prayer language that the person praying cannot understand and that only God understands. It simply means that if someone prays in a foreign language in the congregation, though he himself understands what he is saying, it is unfruitful to everyone else, because they do not know that particular language. “How shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth now what thou sayest?”
9. Whatever the Spirit imparts is intelligible. The modern phenomenon of ecstatic utterance is unintelligible.
10. Rom. 8:26 is often cited to support the theory that there is a “prayer language” in which one prays in utterances he does not understand. The scripture states, “the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” If they “CANNOT BE UTTERED”–cannot be vocalized by human expression–then how could any claim to do it? These groanings refer to the intercession of the Holy Spirit, not to a believer’s prayer language.
11. In I Cor. 14, Paul is dealing with a problem in the congregation with people praying and speaking out in different foreign languages that most didn’t understand. “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue [foreign language] speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries” (Vs. 2). You could preach a wonderful message in the French language, but if no one in the room understands French, then you are only speaking to God. “Except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air” (Vs.9).
12. Paul said that when we pray or sing in the spirit, we were to do it “with the understanding also” (I Cor. 14:15).
13. Paul said he would rather speak five words with his understanding, then ten thousand words in a foreign language. It seems modern tongues enthusiasts would rather jibber jabber ten thousand syllables than speak five understandable words.
14. Tongues are not a sign that the believer has the Holy Spirit, because Paul said “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (I Cor. 14:22).
15. Since tongues are a sign “to them that believe not,” then it cannot be a special prayer language as they would have us believe, because that is not a sign to unbelievers.
16. People under the influence of the modern tongues spirit sometimes lose control of themselves. The Bible tells me that if a man cannot bridle his tongue, his religion is vain (Jms. 1:26). There will neither be any uncontrollable, or unseemly conduct energized by the Holy Spirit. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1827
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:34 pm: |
|
17. If one has the Holy Spirit, they will manifest the fruit of holiness. Thousands upon thousands who thrill to babble in their modern tongues, manifest the fruit of the flesh–adultery, fornication, hatred, emulations, wrath, envyings, etc. (Gal. 5:19-21). We believe not every spirit, that it is of God, because we “know them by their fruits” (Matt. 7:16).
18. There are only three biblical accounts of people receiving the gift of foreign languages. Advocates of the modern “gift” have stamped this as a sign for having the Spirit, yet have not understood the significance of the true gift being given in these incidences . . .
(1) Pentecost marked the inauguration of the age of the coming of the Holy Spirit. Special signs were given in proof of it. The gift of languages given emphasized the universality of the plan of salvation, as the work of the disciples was to go “into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature,” Jew and Gentile.
(2) At Caesarea (Acts 10:46) God gave the same gift as the inaugural event at Pentecost as a witness to the Jews that all the privileges of the gospel were now extended to the Gentiles. They also understood what they were saying (Vs 46), just as did the hearers at Pentecost.
(3) At Ephesus (Acts 19:1-6) those who had only known the baptism of John came into the full knowledge of God’s plan through Christ, to whom the Holy Spirit bears witness (Cf. Jn. 15:26). Here again, they spoke in an intelligible language (Vs. 6), as to prophesy is to speak “unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort” (I Cor. 14:3). Men cannot be edified by what they cannot understand.
19. In ancient times pagan people spoke in “tongues” under the influence of spirits that were not of God. This is the same phenomena manifest in the modern tongues movement.
20. By far, the majority of people claiming to have the gift of modern tongues, do not live free from committing sin. I have heard this testimony repeatedly from their own lips. Acts 5:32 tells us that God gives the Holy Spirit to “them that obey him.” Sin is disobedience, and it is impossible to receive the Holy Spirit in that condition. Since they can’t have the Holy Spirit, what spirit is it that they do have? Where did their supposed gift of the Spirit come from?
A manifestation for which there is no biblical foundation, is but a supposed gift of the Spirit. To allow or tolerate that which is not sanctioned by the Word of God is to leave the door wide open for deception.
By Susan Mutch
Some ideas were sourced from an article by Boyce Blackwelder |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1828
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 6:36 pm: |
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I copy and pasted the above from someone else because I figured if TRS can just copy and paste stuff over and over, why not do it as well? Plus, I got lazy. One gets tired of demonstrating the same old fallacies and having to deal with people who rip scriptures out of context, twist them to mean whatever they want, engage in circular reasoning and then berate you for not "knowing the scriptures". |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:34 pm: |
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mcmstaff,
It is a pathetic sad shame you are content to relegate the things of God ONLY to the MENTAL arena and nothing spiritual. The bible clearly states
"GOD IS A SPIRIT, John 4:24
and "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14
We have THE spirit of Christ in us if we are born again. The spirit of Christ THAT IS IN A Chritian IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
You can't answer the scriptural truth in the posts above so you AVOID answering.
1 Cor. 14:4 declares that "he that speaks in tongues edifies himself". (HIMSELF)
This is a conclusive argument against the dissenters who would claim that such a person is speaking an unlearned earthly language that should only be spoken in the hearing of one who knows that language.
How can speaking an earthly language that you do not know edify you?
It can’t if it is merely an earthly language meant to be interpreted by another.
If it were a tongue meant for a group the verse would read something like this. ‘He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies the church when there is an interpretation, but is wasting his breath if there isn’t.’
Plus, why would the Spirit be giving out this gift as He will if there is none there to interpret? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 736
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.155.182
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:48 pm: |
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You lazy bum mcm. I read your copy and past job.
There are some excellent points made in that article. I think there is some good food for thought there. I think the author is quite far off base in one major area. They seem to think that speaking in tongues requires some perfect standard of "holiness", and that sin in ones life is an indication that they do not have the Holy Spirit. This is a considerable error in my view and unscriptural and is the basis for several of the main points.
As for the rest, I could pick and choose certain points I agree with or disagree with, but since the author is not here to discuss those opinions, I'll just leave it that it's a real mixed bag of stuff for me and I found it interesting. Are you in full agreement with that article mcm? |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 6:45 am: |
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mcmstaff,
The article you posted is ridiculously unscritptural and flawed calling Jesus sacrifice in vain and basing salvation on being perfect, performance, WORKS and never sinning.
You have twisted the scriptures and become apostate.
The final point it makes sums up its total wrong reasoning and unscriptural premises.
You states: "By far, the majority of people claiming to have the gift of modern tongues, do not live free from committing sin. Acts 5:32 tells us that God gives the Holy Spirit to “them that obey him.” Sin is disobedience, and it is impossible to receive the Holy Spirit in that condition."
NOW YOU AND THIS ARTICLE TOTALLY TAKES TEH SCRIPTURES OUT OF CONTEXT TO TRY AND SATISFY YOUR WRONG STANCE AND LAME ARGUMENT.
The obedience or obeying of God Peter is talking about is not stopping preaching the Gospel not stopping preaching the free gift of salvation from Jesus crucified and raised from the dead just because some pharisee or chief priest commanded them.
Read the chapter it says in Acts 5:29 concerning the chief priests accusations and trying to stop them from PREACHING THE GOSPEL "... Peter and the Apostles state We must obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29 Being perfect is not a requirement for the Holy Spirit.
The perfect Holy Spirit comes into a person and that is the part that receives and contains the Holy Spirit and all its gifts.
Salvation is not a based upon a person snful state, their sinlessness, their own good works, performance, or a persons sin or lack of it.
God doesn't grade on a curve.
Jesus paid for it ALL so that anyone, whosoever will call upon the name of the lord may become a new creation in Christ.
Salvation nor the Gifts of Holy Spirit make a person perfect in their actions of the flesh. Only the Spirit is made perfect, the Spirit of God is given to a believer Romans 8:9 but the mind must be renewed to what the Spirit contains.
Romans 12:1-3
Salvation and all of its priviledges, gifts and benefits that come with them based are not based upon a persons performance or make them so they never make a mistake or never sin. It only makes their Spirit brand new.
Salvation doesn't make a person to not ever sin nor is not sinning a requirement to receive Gods free gift.
Only faith in the savior and His free Gift of GRACE is necessary.
"For all have sinned and fallen short."
Jesus finished work stands eternal taking ALL sin and all its punishment past present and future.
It only makes a persons Spirit brand new coming from God BASED upon Jesus eternal finished work sacrifice.
"God's gifts and His callings are withoout repentance they are irrevocable. They are not dependent upon ones performance neither does it mean or require the receiver has been made perfect in the flesh(but their spiritual self is of God 2Cor 5)
God never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call." Romans 11:29 Greek original text.
30Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained His mercy. Romans 11:30
Just as receiving all of salvations benefits does not require a person to be perfect to receive then neither does it make that person perfect in action or deed.
The soul(mind, will, emotions and intellectual makeup) must be renewed. Romans 12
The Gifts and callings of God are irrevocalble. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1336
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 7:16 am: |
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continued,
....Any callings, or gifts to accomplish that calling, that the Lord gives an individual is without repentance. That means, that regardless of what an individual does, God doesn't withdraw His gifts and callings. This is why some ministers who fall into sin can still see the supernatural gifts of God flow in their ministries.
That is not to say that living a life separated unto God is not important. It is very important. A person who is living in sin is going to have their faith hindered made shipwreck through their conscience (1 Tim. 1:19). They will begin to lose effectiveness. However, as much as they can operate in faith, the gifts and callings of God that they received are still there and they will function.
No one operates perfectly in the FLESHLY body but the born from above born again persons Spiritual make up is PERFECT, from God, sealed, and made by and made up of the Holy Spirit of God. In your Spirit you are made perfect from God and Gods Spirit. Not in your flesh.
"...the flesh profits nothing" We are told to be spiritually minded. 2Cor We are told to have the same mind on spiritual supernatural things not natural, fleshly CARNAL minded things.
"To be carnally fleshly minded is death." Romans 8 What you have knowledge of in your mind, and meditate and think on makes all the difference. That is why satan does all that he can to steal Gods word, Mark chapter 4 to DECEIVE which is is only weapon.
Being saved doesn't mean a person stops sinning altogether. You STILL sin daily. IT just gives you the solution and payment for that sin and ability to walk in forgiveness then unhindered by it.
Sinning hinders a persons faith from working unhindered, from walking in the fullness of all that God has provided in Grace and salvation but any person can still sin.
This does not give you a license to sin but the the ability to walk to in forgiveness.
God does not grade sin on curve. Jesus paid for it ETERNALLY, ALL PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE SIN not just before you receive salvation but after you do also.
The persons new brand new born again Spirit from the Holy Spirit of God is perfect and can receive ALL of Gods gifts unhindered. Operating in those gifts can be hindered by many things such as: Lack of knowledge of Gods word, sin, lack of operating in faith, unbelief, lack of experience operating in them - Hebrews 5, religious tradition, Biblical ignorance, circumstance, and too much looking at the natural world and not seeing in faith, or putting GODS WORD the suupernatural power of God above the circumstances and the natural.
You don't want to take the SUPER out of Supernatural. WE are to dominate ourselves with the power and SPIRITUAL truths in Gods word.
Does this mean having Gods gifts makes a person perfect. OF COURSE NOT. Choices come to all people and all people still sin. Sin does not take away Gods gifts it only hinders (over time) if your CONTINUE in that sinning.
Anything that you ever received from God is always still there, for all who asked, it just needs to be activated by faith. |
bro_derrick
Senior Member
Username: bro_derrick
Post Number: 1718
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 70.197.62.202
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 9:07 am: |
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..."though he himself understands what he is saying, it is unfruitful to everyone else"... mcmstaff
This is the simple error that throws out the rest of the argument:
You can debate the italicized reference to unknown all you want; however, Paul went on to expressly declare that the person praying in | |
