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blueboy96
Intermediate Member
Username: blueboy96
Post Number: 169
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 69.132.39.72
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 11:43 am: | 
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Lou Engle is coming to Nashville in July for the eighth edition of "TheCall"--and tomorrow there's supposed to be a special pre-Call event at LP Field in Nashville.
http://www.thecall.com/events.php
Can't imagine Bethel NOT being involved--similar philosophy.
Be sure you're sitting down when you visit this site ... some of the stuff is just frightening. |
jeremiahprophecy
New member
Username: jeremiahprophecy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2007
Posted From: 4.153.68.64
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 12:19 am: |
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What about Purelife Revolution? I know that there was a prayer meeting last year that grouped Bethel and this group together.
I had some concerns about Lou Engle as well. The Call may be another brainwashing event. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 76
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
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Oh I don't think that there is ANYTHING wrong with The Call in Nashville; I think it is a good thing.
Here is a question for anyone to answer: If Bethel and EN was NOT involved in "The Call," would you likewise object - ???
If your answer is "No," then you are playing the guilt by association game, and that's wrong. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 260
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.191.6.96
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 1:24 am: |
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jbk go check out the Walter Walker thread and read the whole thread.
Look at the preperation for the call. It is called river flush and they mention the call event twice. This is strange stuff JBK. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 77
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.189.81.234
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 3:37 am: |
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40: WOW --- this is very VERY interesting to me. I do not have a problem with River Flush USA. In fact, I know James (Jim) Nesbit (sp?) PERSONALLY, because he is from the St. Louis area and I used to PERSONALLY attend his meetings. In fact, my own church hosted one of his conferences, back in St. Louis. So, I do not see any issues with "River Flush," and all that jazz.
So what if Iraq is not mentioned. The 3-partition state idea is not of God, and what does that have to do with this anyways? Immorality in the land is a GREATER and WEIGHTIER issue than Iraq.
Further, I am concerned with the name-dropping, both in this thread and in the Walter Walker thread. It seems to imply that just because Lou Engle and Mike Bickle are involved (along with the other names), the event is a bad thing. How can anyone be the judge of that? |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 207
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 8:23 am: |
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I'm not so sure "guilt by association" is always wrong. There is also the truism "a man is known by the company he keeps" and even our Lord said "beware the leaven of the pharisees" and "a little leaven leavens the whole loaf". When one yokes oneself with those who follow mammon then one is in danger of getting one's focus off that which is more important. |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 90
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 8:41 am: |
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what the heck is this all about? another insane stupid timekiller? why are christians so wide open for mystical and crazy ideas like the ones here: http://mountainstreamministry.org/images/River_Flush_i.pdf
ever thought about the fadct that BAAL had NOTHING to do with the USA, but was an idol which was worshipped by ancient tribes in Israels neighbourhood. How do these crazy people think that Baal came to the USA? did he fly in his private jet to the USA, and now he lives in rivers?
and why does someone think that 07.07.07 will be a special day and change something historically? thats kabbalistic-mystical CRAP and it has nothing at all to do with crhistian believe.
I recommend to the people who are initiating this to be honest at least: start your own religion, but dont dare to call this christian.
you dont serve God, but you serve the Baalim of your weird phantasies...
sorry guys, but this crap just makes me angry. |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 91
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 8:44 am: |
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we see a combination of animism ("water-spirits") and kabhalistic thinking (07/07/07) blended with christian believe. thats NOT biblical. its a New-Age version of christianity.
how stupid and such a abuse of time and money this is... |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:32 am: |
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Many of my friends are going to call and are involved, I want to discuss this with them without sarcasm or overreaction, but gently and powerfully through scriptures. May I suggest we examine this in this way. This has nothing to do with EN, but "the church" in general. Having personally been involved for twenty years in NEW AGE mysticism and pop psychology, I am concerned. I also was raised with many superstitious traditions, as the Catholic church in Europe developed (over the centuries) many mystical pagan superstitions and are/were involved with putting curses on people and removing curses. I have seen it all, and all of this junk was removed from my spirit the day I got saved. I no longer DESIRED these extra mystical experiences, but became in awe of the miracle of SACRIFICE of the life of Jesus Christ that reconciled me back to God. I see NO biblical basis for the following statements and would like to start here.
3. One of the primary purposes of this journey is to break the stronghold of water spirits associated with bodies of water which affect the people that live in the land, bringing pride,
addiction, fleshly pursuits, manipulation and control, attraction to the occult, and a fascination with death and darkness. In essence, we are doing deliverance ministry to our nation. We will be publishing at a later point the Biblical foundation for understanding and addressing water spirits.
And:
5. We will prophetically uproot every kind of iniquity.
6. We will bring the reconciliation of God through communion.
7. We will sever the connection of negative spiritual forces and command their departure
down river and out of the body of this nation.
8. We will purify the water and the land.
I have many issues here. Am I overreacting?
I am offended by the statement of reconciliation of God. I personally have been reconciled to God since August 1998 and THIS was made possible only through Jesus Christ.
What do you all think? |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 92
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
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3. One of the primary purposes of this journey is to break the stronghold of water spirits associated with bodies of water which affect the people that live in the land, bringing pride,
addiction, fleshly pursuits, manipulation and control, attraction to the occult, and a fascination with death and darkness. In essence, we are doing deliverance ministry to our nation. We will be publishing at a later point the Biblical foundation for understanding and addressing water spirits.
First of all the bible does at no place say, that "we can deliver nations".
secondly - yes - there are scriptures where we see the prophets of old and the apostles of the NT beeing in a confrontational situation with pagan believes and with pagan Gods (ie. Paul in Ephesus - Artemis, etc...)
But at NO place we see people "praying against" so called "principalities and powers". Instead the bible clearly WARNS and FORBIDS us to talk with angels.
thirdly calls the bible pride, "fleshly pursuits", whitchcraft WORKS OF THE FLESH and ACTS OF THE SINFUL NATURE (ie. Gal.5,19)
Do these people think that they can make the USA a nation free of pride, witchcraft, etc... by PRAYING against so called PRINCIPALITIES?
in my opinion this is the idea of SHAMANISM, but it has nothing to do with GODS WORD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
5. We will prophetically uproot every kind of iniquity.
?? the ministry of a prophet was the ministry of teaching and of warning Gods people. No prophet in the NT or OT was "uprooting every kind of iniquity", but they where talking out against unrightessness and sin. in fact the people HERE on Factnet talking out against the sins in EN are doing MORE of a prophets work, than people running around with weird visions.
6. We will bring the reconciliation of God through communion.
the RECONCILIATION of GOD comes ONLY threw the sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS OF CALVARY. By accepting this fact IN FAITH people are reconciled with GOD ONCE and FOR ALL. communion is a result of the reconciliation with God, because teconciliation with God is the base for reconciliation with men.
7. We will sever the connection of negative spiritual forces and command their departure
? how ? by "prophetic words"? i can "prophecy" exactly what these guys will prophesy, if i like to, because i know exactly their language, and what they will "see". i can fake it, and i guess they are faking it.
JESUS CHRIST has destroyed the power of sin and death over our lives. no need for people to do this again.
7. We will sever the connection of negative spiritual forces and command their departure
down river and out of the body of this nation.
is this the "exorcism of a nation"? driving down demons the river "out of the nation"?
doesnt this look like the shamanistic ritual of a shamanistic tribe to "heal a region"? where does the bible tell us to do such a thing?
8. We will purify the water and the land.
how?
Jesus will purify EVERYONE who accepts what he did on calvary. he never said that we shall or aere able to "purify water and land". |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 93
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 12:35 pm: |
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guys - this whole thing is SICK. but i doubt that they are open for reason and for biblical/ theological argumentation. They are so bound to their hybrid-religion, that they cannot see the light anymore, and God lets them follow their darkened hearts.
reality will be like always: no change in society. no "pure water and land". no "revival".
it reminds me on on of the last "prophecies" that Morris Cerullo gave in London (begining of this year). He said, that after 55 days something dramatical will happen and change the spiritual athmosphere, blabla...
Has there changed anything, beside his bank-account? Nothing - Nada...
this all is weird crap.
All the time, when i was in ministry i had to fight against these weird things. People called me "unspiritual" because as a pastor of a charismatic church i tried to keep things balanced...
I had a girl in church- she was (tibetanian) buddist before becomeing a christian. she never lost her worldview, but her terminology changed. all the "spiritual reasons" and things that she saw as a christian where exactly like before.
guys - this stuff is HOT and its absolutely weirdo. its a mixture between shamanism, anismism and it has mystical kabbalistic elements. |
coppertree
Junior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.133.58.107
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 3:22 pm: |
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Hi All-Catching up,
Unfortunately I have been through this stuff before with Maranatha, and Larry Lee prayer meetings. All night stuff,mad calls for a fast...etc. After a while the Lord showed me, perhaps we were amiss in our thinking.
Robert, is weird and wrong but that is all they have. They are like Rehoboam, who pretended that his shields were the gold ones from Solomon's time. (The real ones were taken by the Egyptians, after disobedience to God).
They were but bronze, but he carried on the pretense of a guard for them. He wanted people to think that he still that the shields of gold.
I think that they have to come up with something to keep people's interest, and make them look like they are hearing from God.} |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 264
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 4:01 pm: |
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40/40: As they proceeded around the rivers it sounds like they implemented this below.
7.We are erecting altars of worship that are also beacons of light. As these are connected through our journey, the center of our nation will become flooded with light.
40/40: I guess these top leaders can say any mystical thing they want and where does that leave your average believer? I guess they want them to just go along and believe in an uncritical way? Sure I believe worship can change things and there are principalities out there but these guys thought processes seem shamanistic. Fire, water, wind, east, north, south, west.... eye of newt...etc. This mind set does not value logic, it does not seem all that healthy, what happened to simple Faith in Jesus Christ? - I guess I have a spirit of mind idolatry, again.
Remember this thing was sent to Peter Wagner and the National and State Apostolic Team Members, this involves the NAR and EN has deep ties to Wagner. |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 95
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 4:50 pm: |
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the center of our nation will become flooded with light.
this will NOT change the course of the USA. there will be sin in the earth until Jesus Christ comes back physicaly to erect his kingdom on earth physicaly.
oh dear, i forgot... they believe that We are already in the millenium, and that Christ is her, incorporated in his body... and now we have to reach and to rule...
well... stupid me... i go and erect and altar here... do i need to sacrifize something?
sorry for my sarcasm, but i am so fet up with this junk.
i have beenin spiritual warfare, since it was intorduced in Europe 20 years ago. i have heared all the prophecies about Austria, germany, England, Berlin, Vienna, etcetc... I have seen all the efforts taken, to bring down the principalities and powers...
Europe still is a dark place.
I believe in prayer. but i have lost my faith into "spiritual warfare". I dont find it in the bible (not the way how its been practised). |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 265
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 4:54 pm: |
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I guess the thing that concerns me is that if you have this mindset and lets say a miracle does show up not from God you could be misled. In the book of Revelations it talks about the Anti Christ and False Prophet doing lying signs and wonders. The bible warns that even the very elect would be endanger of being deceived. I still believe in miracles and God does do things that seem strange, Naman was told to dip seven times and Jesus spit on mud and applied it to some guys eyes but this river flush thing? Do you read about stuff like this even in the Old Testament? Sure you read about destroying pagan altars and junk but driving out the demons from Israel like this stuff above?
I did enjoy the Larry Lea teaching book on the Lords prayer (a heck of a lot better then Firm Foundations). I do remember visiting Jubilee in San Jose where he had the whole church, unsheathing imaginary swords and slashing at the principalities of the four points of the compass. The thing is if that stuff worked you would have figured that all those principalities and their influece over America would have been shredded to smitherines. I mean if Larry visited dozens of very large churches and addressed tens of thousands of Christian in large auditoriums? And if this stuff worked every demon of any consequence in America should have been rendered inoperable. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 78
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.189.81.234
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 6:04 pm: |
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MCM: Would you at least say you should be careful with an allegation based on name-dropping, or guilt-by-association?
Robert: Not sure how to respond to you. Like I said, I know James Nesbit personally. He was a great friend and acquaintance of mine when I lived in St. Louis.
Dust: Yes, I do think you're overreacting. I think "water spirits" is being used as some kind of "code word," for spirits that bring the evil things that are mentioned in Para. 3. Look, I know James Nesbit personally from St. Louis. I've spent time with him, and I can assure you there is a biblical basis (as they promised they would publish later) for what they're saying in Para. 3.
I have no issues with Statements 5-8. I especially have no issue with Statement 6, which says "We will bring the reconcilliation of God through communion." Yes, you have been personally reconciled with God, as have I and every Christian. However, 2 Cor. 5:20-21 commends us as believers to ambassadors of reconcilliation. I believe that is what Statement 6 is addressing. And what better SYMBOL brings reconcilliation through salvation than communion which is a SYMBOL of our salvation - ???
To Be Continued... |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 79
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.189.81.234
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 6:21 pm: |
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Continued...
Robert: At this point, I'm addressing your posts #92 and 93.
You said that the Bible does not say that "We can deliver nations." Ok. However, the Bible DOES say we are called to make disciples of the nations. See Matt. 28. And I believe part of making disciples of the nations is bringing deliverance to the inhabitants therein. I think that is what Nesbit and company are saying here, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Then you said, Robert, "at NO place we see people 'praying against' so-called 'principalities and powers.' Actually, the Bible does say in Eph. 6:12 (NKJV), "For we do not wrestle (some translations say "we war not") against flesh and blood, but against PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." So, Robert, the Bible DOES suggest we are to pray against principalities and powers, contrary to what you said.
Robert, not to play semantics with you, but I believe "prophetically uprooting any inquity" is the same as speaking and talking out against sin and unrighteousness. I see these two things as basically the same.
As for Statement 6, please re-read my comments above to Dust, Robert.
As for Statement 7, I don't see any problems. Jesus instructed His disciples to cast out demons, etc. I see this as no different.
As for Statement 8, I believe this deals with purifying the waters and the land from sin and inquity. There IS a biblical concept of "sin in the camp," so to speak, and I think that is what these guys are wanting... repentance.
Overall, I don't see any issues with any of this, and I see a biblical basis sufficient to justify their actions, etc.
To Be Continued... |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 80
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.189.81.234
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 6:30 pm: |
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Continued...
40: There is nothing wrong with erecting altars of worship. What do you think about establishing (or planting) new churches? Same thing. They want PURE altars that are undefiled so people can worship God in spirit and truth. I see NO problem with that.
Robert, I see no problem with the "beacons of light" thing. We as Christians are commended by the Scriptures to be salt and light. Big deal they are using a different metaphor.
Also, I DO believe prayer can change the course of a nation, and there are OT examples that prove that, e.g. Esther. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 266
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 6:54 pm: |
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jbk I have to go now but leaving an altar behind at some lake or river side and then hopping into your car and driving away? Does'nt that seem strange? Is'nt an altar a physical thing? |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 83
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 7:00 pm: |
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JBKREMS
I like you but you are no expert in these matters, nor did you bring appropriate scriptual basis for your replies.
In fact, I've talked to people about this, people NOT HERE, and they are agreeing that they have some issues. There are even other things I don't wish to disclose here, at least not at this time, because If I did, it would really cause uproar.
You need to get some objectivity.
First of all us bringing a spirit of reconciliation is NOT the same thing as this statement:
6. We will bring the reconciliation of God through communion.
This statement is making a supposition that we are not reconciled to God. We are. And that reconconciliation comes through communion. It doesn't. But, what I think they mean is not "literal" communion, Blood and Body of Christ, but community.
Fellowship, assembly, community, coming together are all good tihngs, but that is not what reconciles us to God. In fact, there were very few people at the cross when the true reconciliation to God took place. It could not be done by man. Only God.
You are also not objective, because you have friendships involved.
Before you even take a moment to reflect the validity of these statements, you defend. I think you need to seek God first and really seek your word and be open to real truth.
God can still do a work through people with a pure heart, but that heart will not remain pure if it begins to accept darkness in the form of tiny lies that start to degrade the truth about Jesus and the truth about man. God is God. Man is still imperfect and flawed man. Many MEN in the charismatic church today want to be God and don't want to accept their fallibility.
A reconciliation that needs to take place is the abuse of the sheep and the lies and deceptions of recent leadership. I am not just talking about EN, but a lot of the junk of the church today. and, if a DEFENSIVE posture is all the church is capable of, then they will and have gone off the track.
They must be OPEN to discussion, authenticity, honesty, humility and integrity. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 268
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.43
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 9:52 pm: |
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I browsed at that article again and another interesting thing I noticed is near the start of the river flush article, James Nesbit specifically asks that on may 5th the river teams across 3 time zones and people near a river in their area who are under proper covering. Worship at 7PM-EDT to "LIGHT THE PASSAGE" - The quotation marks and capital letters and bold print are not from 40/40, that is how it is written in the article. Notice they did not say worship God and command the water spirits or Satan to flee in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Now I am sure they did that but they emphasized "LIGHT THE PASSAGE" as if they are literally opening up and directing principalities down a highway. They believe that because of the water spirits and the defilement of the rivers that 2nd heaven principalities had legal access to link into the earth. So they believe their activities will stop this process and smash the demonic power grid which can now be used by them for Gods prophetic purposes.
The analogy would be if I threw you out of your own house and then plugged my power tools into your electical outlets to use for myself.
This is very disturbing because a white witch will say I use the power for good but she will claim that a black witch uses the same power for evil. Same power it is just how you use it. Now we have Christians saying I will use this river power grid for good while the water spirits used it for evil? Does anyone see a problem with this?
And the River Flush people are working with the Nashville Call people, their most likely the same folks and the Maranatha/MSI/EN people are participating in this. Heck read that Walter Walker thread, EN leaders and Laffoon went to IHOP which is involved with this, Mike Bickle is the main prayer director of this Call thing.
Now I am sure that stadium will be filled with a bunch of nice sincere Christians who want America to repent and turn back to God I have no problem with them but the crowd running this thing? BIG QUESTIONS!
I can't believe this. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 269
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.43
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 10:01 pm: |
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"LIGHT THE PASSAGE"
Does'nt that sound like something Elizabeth Claire Prophet would say or some new age group?
THINK ABOUT IT ! |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 81
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 10:17 pm: |
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40: I don't know whether these people desire to erect a physical altar, or a spiritual (non-physical) one.
As far as "light the passage" is concerned, I don't know who Elizabeth Claire Prophet is. However, I don't see it as New Age. We as Christians are called to be salt and light in the earth, as Jesus is OUR Light. So, its a metaphor --- the question is what it means. And only Nesbit or Wagner can really answer that truthfully.
Dust: I need to address some of the things you said here, in an objective way. First, about reconciliation... the Scriptures say we are "ambassadors of reconciliation," not that we bring the "spirit of reconciliation," but that we reconcile man to God through our ambassadorship that He has given us. That being said, I wholeheartedly and completely agree with you that we, as Christians, are already reconcilled with God. However, the unsaved in this world are NOT reconciled with God. And THAT is the supposition present in Statement 6, not that Christians are un-reconciled, but that NON-believers are un-reconciled.
I think what James Nesbit and company are saying by Statement 6 is that by taking communion with God as Christians, we intensify our own unity, and our own COMM-unity, together, which draws unsaved people unto God. By purifying ourselves, we glorify God, and as the Scriptures say, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto God," etc. I think that is what they are saying, and I think it is wrong for you Dust, 40, and Robert to criticize what is trying to be achieved here.
40: I don't follow some of your reasoning, it is not clear for me. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 270
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.43
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 10:33 pm: |
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Jesus is the light of the world but they are talking about lighting the passage? Why?
Lucifer is also known as the light bearer.
Satan comes as an angel of light.
Their phraseology concerns me, words they leave in and words they leave out. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 263
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 10:44 pm: |
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Krems, I am just saddened that you are falling into this mysticism. You represent the gullible young people whose lives were so messed up by organizations like MCM and EN.
This River Flush is a man created idea, by people trying to look super spiritual. It is alarming and sickening to me, but because a good friend of yours is involved, it must be of God. You are so naive, you don't realize that these older men are simply wolves looking for sheep to devour.
The window of objectivity seems to be closing on you. It is a sad thing to see another young gullible person led down such a harmful path. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 82
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
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40: Christians are called to be salt and light. Jesus is NOT the light of the world, we are. Jesus is only the light of those who follow Him.
Matt: I never said I agree with any of this. Personally, I have no intention to be in Nashville for the Call event, or to be a part of "River Flush." By defending their ideas, I am in no way saying that I personally agree with what they are doing.
Matt, how do you know that River Flush is a man-created idea - ??? Are you God? Who made you the judge???
Jim Nesbit is NOT a good friend; he is an acquaintance. I haven't talked with him in a long time. However, I do know how Jim thinks, and I know that what he does prayer-wise is backed up with a sound basis in the Scriptures. |
coppertree
Junior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.163.12.154
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:07 pm: |
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Hi All-Catching Up
Well, water spirits are from Neolithic times, lovely young persons were involved in this, they were the best from their village, group.The beat goes on...} |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 271
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.43
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:17 pm: |
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River Flush is over JBK that was to prepare for 777 Nashville.
LOL it is like a slot machine. Get 3 7's and you get a mighty JACKPOT  |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 264
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:22 pm: |
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Like I said, I know James Nesbit personally. He was a great friend and acquaintance of mine when I lived in St. Louis.
Krems, I didn't come here to argue with you. But your debating skills are just so poor. You can't even remember what you said.
The River Flush is just another idea that sounds real good to people like you. It is a totally ridiculous, mystic, idea, I know, I came up with some a few decades ago. My favorite was the summer we volunteered at a Christian group home. The pool out back was green as pea soup. The group home was low on funds and couldn't get it cleaned. So my old friend and I cast a green slime demon out of it. It didn't work. It needed chemicals. We were trying to satisfy our flesh, we just wanted to swim.
Flushing demons in a river and down to the mouth of the Mississippi and out in the Gulf or some such foolishness is more of the same, just a few decades later. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 83
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:24 pm: |
|
40: Well, if River Flush is over, then isn't all this discussion about how bad it could have been is moot - ???
I don't think 07/07/07 is like a slot machine. I believe they chose the date because seven is the number of perfection and completion. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 273
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.52
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 2:26 am: |
|
Well they did choose the date on that we can agree on.  and 7 is a cool number I was born on it. |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 96
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 2:27 am: |
|
i also know all the scriptures that get used to support the "spiritual warfare" idea. as i said before: i was in this thing since 20 years and i teached it. i know all the books about it...
however: the scriptures you quoted do by no way say, that we shall PRAY against spiritual beeings. the scriptures can be interpreted totally differently than you did, and they have been understood totally differently since nearly 2000 years by a succesfull church. only lately the spiritual warfare idea came into existence, and i personally believe its based on a twisted interpretation of some scriptures, but the bible does NOT have a dogma/ teaching about it.
but simply look on the fruit: the whole "spiritual warfare" tihngy creates people who see demons behind every bush and who fall into esoteric like behaviour and superstition. keeping certain days and dates, "wearing the spiritual armor" every day, praying against "waterspirits", flying over cities in airplanes to pray against principalities and powers, doing weird things "prophetically" (ie. walking around things 7 times, etc...), talking with/ against angels, beeing afraid about whats said ("proclaiming"), beeing afraid of curses and witchcraft,... etcetc...
does it bring the fruit of the sprit? or save one single person? or bring revival? NO.
after 20 years seeing/ practising it, i had to change my mind about it.
and even if it WOULD work: its not biblical. it breaks some commands God gave us (ie that we are not allowed to talk to angelic beeings).
i know that some NOR and NALR leaders (like Wagner) are also very PRAGMATIC (if "it worls" it is good)...
God however called us to obey him, and not to do things because "they work" (i know many things that work, in regards of getting money, ie, but they are not moral and not biblical)...
another thing: everyone here knows what 7 stands for. but the bible also tells us that we shall not lay attention on times and dates.
why? because the Lord is not bound on times and dates, and what we see happening is a kabbalistic mysticism entering christianity...
therefore i am against it.
but let them have their fun. let them travel around and waste money and time by "beating the beast"... it will not change one thing in the USA.... LOL |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 84
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 70.189.81.234
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 2:46 am: |
|
Robert:
I never said we should pray against spiritual beings; I said we should pray against spiritual forces, i.e. principalities and powers. I think there is a difference there, perhaps it is a difference that doesn't matter, but I see a difference that does matter.
As regards to fruit, I disagree that a focus on "spiritual warfare" creates a people that see demons behind every bush. Perhaps a better way to say it is that everything in this world is spiritually-motivated, either by a good spirit, or an evil spirit. And evil spirits come in two different kinds, spirits of men (carnal spirits), and demonic spirits from the devil. But everything is motivated by a spirit, and it is either a right or wrong spirit at that.
As regards to some of the practices, yes, some of them are weird, but if God is leading someone to walk around something seven times, for example, then who are we to judge that. After all, they walked around the walls of Jericho seven times at God's instruction and command, and the walls fell down. That's not weird, Robert, that is in the Scriptures.
Does it bring the fruit of the Spirit? I think it does? Does it produce saved souls? I think it could. Does it bring revival? I think it helps facilitate it.
As far as talking to angelic beings, I think in general we aren't allowed to so, but the Bible does say that angels beckon to the call of God's Word. So, I believe we can take what it says in the Scriptures, which is God's Word, and command angels to fall into line with what God's Word says. Otherwise, yes, talking with angels would be a sin.
So, overall, I don't see this stuff as kaballistic mysticism entering Christianity, and thus I am more neutral towards it, and believe that it does no harm to anyone, and could possibly yield good. So I agree, let them do it, and I will give them the benefit of doubt. |
osakadan
Junior Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 32
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.9.31
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:28 am: |
|
I was going to point out what the Hatter did but he beat me!
So instead.....I will be the ahole here -Krems, still cashing those monthly checks from Mother and Father? Or do they come from the practice of McDonalds and Co? |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 274
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.154.12
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 4:12 am: |
|
Hatter don't tell me your friend is one of the apostles of EN today and he was with you when you and him tried to cast a green slime demon out of that pool? There is no way this story on this EN board could get to this ridiculous level after the river flush demon story. No way Phil Bonasso is the man/boy who helped you cast out a green slime demon, unsuccessfully from the pool? NO WAY! please it has got to be someone else, do not destroy my fragile ego. Ur childhood friend is a grand apostle, acknowledged and declared one by the same folks and acquaintances of Wagner lore who hold the apostle Rice in very high esteem and supports River Flush? - the man was Laffoon who bestowed the title on your friend but am not sure? Ginger or Uly can confirm. Set me straight and all of EN on these important facts, oh mighty social worker from the south near the mouth of the Mississipi where demons wash out into the gulf.
but don't take offense I know you occasionly pack heat. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 265
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 8:18 am: |
|
40, I will let you draw you own conclusions with this story: My childhood friend and I roomed together at Auburn (we were single, pre MCM days). The trailer we lived in did NOT have air conditioning. You can only imagine the heat in that Spam can during Spring Semester.
The great one had a small window unit in his bedroom, long since empty of freon. He got me up one night to lay hands on the AC to make it work. Just like the pool that needed chemicals, the AC needed freon, not prayer. The prayer didn't work. Robert is right, sending imaginary river spirits into the water or whatever they did won't have on stitch of effect on the USA.
But becoming a friend to a new neighbor, praying with someone at work, leading someone to Christ will. Change comes from individual acts, not from magical incantations.
and what we see happening is a kabbalistic mysticism entering christianity...
Robert, your post above was quite good. Your statement nailed it! These folks are too interested in looking good for the dumb minions that worship them. The wackier the 'revelation' the more spiritual they look to the sheep.
So yes 40, there is a Santa Claus. 
And O-dan, (how about that, you and 40 in the same paragraph, see, I aim to bring world peace)I think your question has been answered through silence. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 275
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.191.2.34
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 9:39 am: |
|
Yeah hatter, if only i had got a hold of this Flush revelation before it was over. These guys forgot about the minor state of Kali it seeem. If only I knew I would have saved a bucket of h2O from the delta, and the Stanislaus, Russian, and American rivers and done an exorcism on them myself for Kalifornication . The idiots in this thing reading it will think I 40 am a major principality mocking their intelligent behinds...LOL.
Not much mention of the Columbian river up in the far north either. It appears the river spirits took a vacation on the west coast. Many of the Mississipi mud demons hid in nooks and crannies in the very muddy Colorado river near Satans playground known as Las Vegas (that is stars in spanish) but now the Flush is over so they are headed back home to the ole Miss. taking their annointing with them I am a little disapointed I had so much power for a short time but now it is dissipating as the more clever river demons are heading back home to the midwest and southern power grid after having a vacation in the golden state, they hid out here and avoided the lit up corridor thing even dodged some warrior angels. It sucks because they knew Phil B was coming back to the southern Cal river regions and they deciced to skidaddle.
See jbk: this is why this type of talk is foolish. The new airconditioners are better then the old they lock in the freon demon molecules for a longer period of time. They did not bind major west coast river demons this is why Phil B is headed my way. Those River Flush blank holes dropped the baal big time |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 84
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 10:00 am: |
|
Please please, let's not make this personal about Krems. This is not his thread or his show. Please please take your personal discussion with him somewhere else.
I started this discussion so that people could discuss this topic which is important to me, maybe not important to someone else, which is why there are many threads here. I do not in any way agree with what Krems said, but he has his opinion and he's entitled. My personal wish is that he wouldn't join in this discussion because the past has shown, he will get all the attention, and it will get ugly and personal. And, in the meantime, we will lose the opportunity to have a real discussion.
If this topic does not involve your life, your friends, your church, or anything that has personal significance to you, I ask you to please consider that it does for me and I've seen too many threads become Jonathan Krems thread and lose their value. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 276
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.191.2.34
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 10:12 am: |
|
Love Ya dust but blue boy started it and I think this thread is good because it shows the EN folks the mind set of their heroes at the top of the NAR with people like Laffoon and Wagner. JBK is providing valuable service here by providing interaction and post ..... He is contributing. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 277
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.191.2.34
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 10:19 am: |
|
post volume? I am looking for another word. The point is for a message board to work you need posters and jbk is sport for this topic, he loves it and so do I. Let the ideas FLO and we can decide for ourselves who is right and wrong and by the way jbk is a cool guy. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 266
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:01 pm: |
|
Sorry for the distraction, I'll back out of here. |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 97
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:23 pm: |
|
Jonathan, all your argumentation is not new to me. i believed the same things like you did for nearly 20 years. but after 20 years, and after seeing the terrible damage that this believe did WITHIN many, many people and churches - compared to NO results that got promised - i changed my mind.
And the thing is - and i new this already all the years before, when i was still believeing these things - that the doctgrines about "spiritual warfare" are NOT the result of biblical hermeneutik. much of it is in fact very vague interpretation, and as i said, it is something that got developed only since, perhaps 25 years.
but if God is leading someone to walk around something seven times, for example, then who are we to judge that.
I am a person who SHALL judge the things with Gods word. God was doing some unique things then and there in history.
But when people "feel led by God" to walk around things seven times, i tell you frank and free, that they simply are not led by God, but by their own "carnal spirits", because they want to be important and because the need an excuse, why their "strategies" doent work. Of course its the devil then, and then we need to find "ways " to "fight the devil".
thats a very dangerous, man-made road, and i tell you its NO difference between these practices and shamanistic practices.
why do i judge so? simply because Gods word does NOT tell us to walk around things seven times to "tear down strongholds". You cannot use ONE single and unique act of God and build a theology around it. thats one of the rules of hermeneutiks (how to read and understand the bible).
Does it bring the fruit of the Spirit? I think it does? Does it produce saved souls? I think it could. Does it bring revival? I think it helps facilitate it.
well, what you think doesnt make a point here. fact is, that i have seen NO fruit in 20 years
and even if it would work, its not biblical. bankrobbery and scam works also to become rich. and now what?
but lets say person x gets saved after church y´s warfare session. why could you say that personX got saved because a church walked around the block seven times? perhaps the person would have been saved anyhow (like people got saved in nearly 2000 years of church history: by hearing and believeing the gosepel of JESUS CHRIST).
all the storie about revivals: have you ever thought about the fact, that there have been many, many revivals before (all during history) without ONE single prayer of warfare? without on single "i rebuke you"? without building "altars of light" and "delivering nations" by "fighting water-spirits"? go and read revival history. read about the welsh revival, ie, or about the hutter brethren or about the reformation...
oe read the bible. there was no spiritual warfare (like it is practised today) - neither in Jerusalem, nor in Samaria, nor in Ephesus. Paul SIMPLY preached the death and the resurection of the Lord Jesus Christ. thats ebough warfare, because the enemy knows that he got defeated on that cross! |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 98
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:25 pm: |
|
no hard feelings, Jonathan. Its nothing between us both,... |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 99
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
|
So I agree, let them do it, and I will give them the benefit of doubt.
yes - they dont mean anything bad. i know that. but what a senseless waste of time and money. again people are getting robbed of terribly, by such an supersticious illusion.
Jonathan, i promise you - they will not deliver the USA, and the USA will not be a better or worse place after all of this.
but i am concerned for the people. |
robert_unknown
Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 100
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
|
. I mean if Larry visited dozens of very large churches and addressed tens of thousands of Christian in large auditoriums? And if this stuff worked every demon of any consequence in America should have been rendered inoperable.
yes, and Austria, specially Innsbruck, would be a region which produces revival for aaaaaall the world. Because Paul Daniels and us mighty spiritual warriors have destroyed the strrrongholds over Austria in 2002...
strange... they didnt seem to get the message... they are still here. No revival in Austria. Innsbruck is no regional center for revival. No multitudes of saved people... shame...
the problem is with all this neo-prophetic and paradigm-apostolic and shamanistic-warfare thingy, that IT DOES NOT WORK. so they have to tell the people all nice stories to make them think izt works. but at the end it does not work, and they call in the next warfare meeting with the next demon (perhaps the montain-spirits) and the nextr revelation: but it will not work... usually people are stupid enought to simply FORGET that the "propecies" didnt get fullfilled... some are a little less stupid and "hold the word" for 10, or 20 years, waiting for the fullfillment...
I mean here in Innsbruck we had people from Yongi Chos church praying over the city ("big revival will come"), we had the grrrreat "apostles" from MSI/EN here. We had conferences, and hundrets and thousands of manhours of prayer and warfare... NO REVIVAL...
something is wrong in wonderland, mate, definitely wrong! |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 101
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |
|
i tell you a story. a real one...
there was this tree above the city in one of the forests. on this tree people would nail pictures of mary, and they would pray to thank the virgin Mary for health, and this and that.
Of course we "knew" that this was a demonic high, with a demonic stronghold, which got manifested by this idol worship.
so one night we prayed against it. Next morning the tree (a big one) was broken by the wind. totaly. 2 meters above the ground. ONLY this particular tee. it was in the newspaper.
so it was a confirmation for us that what we did was working and therefore true, and godly.
however. only some weeks later, i passed the place, to see what happened. Do you know what happened?
all the pictures where hanging on the NEXT tree, 10 meters next to the broken one.
People have just MOVED the place, and they stil walk up to this tree to pray to virgin Mary...
So now there are some serious questions to ask:
1- Did the prayer work, and bring down the stronghold? Perhaps there are regional strongholds (in fact the bible gives us some hints that there are beeings like this, but at no place i can see a hint or command to PRAY or ACT against them! in fact in the OT Michael was fighting against the "Prince of Persia", but Daniel did NOT engage in this)
Or was it just a funny incident, that in this night the wind broke the tree? perhaps it would have been broken anyhow? even without our shandalah session?
2- Why did the people not become FREE from the stronghold, but erect the next idol?
3- Did we damage satans kingdom?
the answer is this: GOD is concerned for our hearts. the idols are in the HEARTS of the people, and NOT in trees (animism). perhaps the devil uses pagan places to be worshiped, but what does this mean? people STILL need to get free in their hearts, and they can ONLY get free if the hear and understand the gospel, and if the volunteerly decide to follow Christ and lay down their idol worship (i know people who did this).
spiritual warfare in this way is nothing than a waste of time. if we REALLY would have been concerned for the people, we would have gone to the place and explain them that what they did was wrong. but it was "more spiritual" and "more prophetic" to shandalah some hours against a tree(!!).
he bible says, that if someone is hungry for rightessness, he will be fed, and the one who seeks will find. there is NO point in destroying altars, but not caring for people.
the idols are in the heart! and they cannot be cast out by warfare prayers!
satans strifes for the HEARTS of people. and Jesus also. we need to preach the message to them, care for them and love them practicaly through social engagement, and not to "deliver a nation" by copying shamanistic rituals in conection with cabbalistic number mysticism.
the church today is comfortable. its nicer to go to a shandalah session praying agaonst invisible illusions and afterwards go to MCDonalds than to share time, talent and love with a dying world...
i am preaching - sorry! |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 1:37 pm: |
|
"Does it produce fruit of the spirit?"
well, God cannot produce hurt, bruised and damaged fruit. He can't contradict Himself. And I am proof that these whacky 'revelations' claiming to be from God...have produced damaged 'fruit' in the past!
"YOU will know them by their fruit!" |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 208
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:00 pm: |
|
The theology exemplified by this stuff is just regurgitated Gnosticism, which is all WoF is. When you start breaking down these teachings you see all the ancient heresies at work. Be careful arguing with the devil, look where it got Eve. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:03 pm: |
|
"Be careful arguing with the devil, look where it got Eve."
that's right, 78'....."Run Forest Run!!" |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 85
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 156.110.24.142
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:08 pm: |
|
40: You make no sense in post 275.
Dust: I am going to continue to post in this thread and respond to the people. I appreciate your attempt to de-personalize the conversation, but I am going to continue to post on this topic.
Robert: I'm sure you won't agree, but I find a sound and solid biblical basis for what I believe in the Scriptures. Please do not be offended, but some of what you say goes against some basic Scriptures.
If God leads a group of people to walk around some thing or someone 7 times, then I do not think you have a right or perogative, Robert, to judge that, and say its not of God. God's ways are not man's ways. You say people do that because they want to feel important and they are basically being led by the flesh. How would you know -- ??? I don't think its necessarily true. To give a personal testimony, back in my church in St. Louis, we had a Jericho Sunday once where we put all the sick people in the middle of the congregation, and then everyone else walked around them 7 times, and then we prayed for them that they would be healed. Of course the scriptural basis for this was the story in Joshua, and there WAS results in that people were healed. Not everyone was healed, but some were. Most importantly, this was the direction that God had led with our pastor, and because there was a scriptural basis for it, one could not say he was being led by the flesh and not by the Holy Spirit. You would probably say it was the flesh or carnality, but how would you know - ???
Robert, just because you've seen a lack of fruit in 20 years, in YOUR experience, doesn't mean that other people have seen fruit in THEIR experience. That is why we should not judge events by our experience, or lack thereof, but instead judge based on the Word of God, and if there is a scriptural basis, then we should not judge it.
Continued... |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 156.110.24.142
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:12 pm: |
|
Robert: And its nothing personal on my end either. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:40 pm: |
|
NOTE: 40, I am only asking that we stay on this discussion instead of doing what has happened so many times, when it becomes about Krems and his personal life.
And I ask because that kind of thing will not invite anyone here for discussion, but it just turns people away and darkens the mood.
I would love to hear more from you Sameo, on the types of things you've seen. I, too, have been on the prayer walks and witness strange prayer meetings yelling at the devil. All fruitless. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 3:54 pm: |
|
Robert
Thank you....this is exactly my thinking. And, I appreciiate your perspective so much because you went through it. You were on the other side, trying to do it. I did that too. I helped take people through deliverance, They never got free. It was all wrong. I participated in a prayer walk over a property that ended up being nothing but more problems for the church. NO FRUIT.
If even 1/1000 of that type of stuff would have happened, EN would be in a different position today. The church would be full instead of emptying out. They would have had the discernment to see the real evil before them amongst their own staff.
I really truly pray that people get set free from what I see as heresy and witchcraft. It only gets worse, not better. This kind of thing must be denounced and we are NOT to talk to the devil. Jesus gave us a great example of mercy, love and communication with His FATHER. This is what we should follow.
Humility, Integrity and wisdom. I pray this for everyone. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 156.110.24.142
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 4:01 pm: |
|
Dust: I'm sorry, but there are some things that you say that are good, and there are some things that you say that are incorrect.
I do agree that Jesus gave us a great example of mercy, love and communication with the Father. However, Jesus spoke to the devil, in fact, he COMMANDED the devil to leave. And I think we are called to do the same thing as well, to command the devil to leave --- call it rebuke if you want --- and I think even 40 agrees here, that we should be able to command the devil to leave, just like Jesus did during his temptation period. What do you think about that? |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 5:32 pm: |
|
Matt
You don't have to bow out. I understood what you said. My only hope is that this wouldn't turn into one of those personal fights, which after the last one, I just can't take anymore.
This week I had long conversations with friends of mine who are going to the call. They are solid Christians and we started talking about the River Flush thing which they knew nothing about. But, they did admit to me some things they were concerned about.
And, I also have some information I just can't talk about that is even more alarming than the river flush.
I've seen the flyer for the call. It's say, EVERYONE MUST GO. Cancel your honeymoon to go the call. I am sad about this, because it is a disrespect towards marriage. I don't think anything is as important as marriage and a wedding. I hate that they chose to put this on their publications that if you have a honeymoon planned, you should cancel it to go to the Call.
I ask myself WHY did they have to include that statement? Why not be satisfied with people going as they feel led to go, why manipulate people into cancelling honeymoons.
I think marriage is one of the most important and significant gifts from God. A seminar or a conference is just that...
They are treating this like the second coming of Christ, and even if you are on your honeymoon, you won't miss that. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 88
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 156.110.24.142
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 5:41 pm: |
|
Dust: I actually agree with you about the wedding and honeymoon deal. It is disrespectful towards the sacrament of marriage to make statements like that.
However, keep in mind, and this is at least most of what I've heard about The Call, that it is geared towards young people (teenagers and twenty-somethings), and so most of these folks would probably NOT be getting married at that age. But I agree, urging people to cancel their honeymoon because of the Call is disrespectful. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 209
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:00 pm: |
|
Hmmm, it's geared to the most impressionable, idealistic and easily manipulated segment of the population. Pure, unadulterated balderdash. This is either demonic deception or cynical manipulative mind control. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 210
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:00 pm: |
|
Sameo, "run Forrest, run" is exactly right!! |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 156.110.24.142
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:07 pm: |
|
MCM: What do you suggest churches do, from your Orthodox perspective, to be more relevant, and reach youth and young adults in society today?? |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:21 pm: |
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When Paul went to Athens, a place where many Gods were worshiped, he did not engaged on spiritual warfare or spiritual mapping and he did NOT he asked the whole church to go to Athens to rebuke the demons.
When Paul went to Athens instead of engaging in spiritual warfare he preached the gospel by engaging in an intelligent debate with the local people. He notice the the locals were also worshiping an unknown God so he used the opportunity to teach them about the one true God and the savior Jesus Christ that was unknown to them.
Dust:
I agree with you marriage is very important. jesus or the New Testament church never asked anyone to cancel their honeymoon to preach the gospel or to attend a church activity. The honeymoon is very important in my opinion.
The Jesus Christ and New Testament Church travelled to preach the gospel, occasionally a non christian was deliver from demon possession, but they never went to cast the demons that were affecting the area, they boldly preached the gospel instead. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 211
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:28 pm: |
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Pilgrim, good observations. No where in the NT do we see anything like the craziness advocated by these type groups.
In cults and cult-like groups, crises are manufactured in order to maintain a high level of compliance and maintain group loyalty. The illusion of "doing something" especially important is quite a powerful motivator, especially for the young and idealistic. Leaders continually invent such things to keep people feeling "important" and "special" and to keep their minds off questioning the "man behind the curtain".
The young people caught up in such vanities are in serious need of prayer and love. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:53 pm: |
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kremsy, come on...the fact they did say "cancel honeymoon" is because somebody is having to do this. It is an issue or else they wouldn't be saying this. And most of MCM got married in their early twenty's. I was 20. I'm glad you think it's at least disrespectful....but don't downplay it as highly unlikely that it would apply to anyone. TRUST me, it applies to somebody or it wouldn't be mentioned.
That it happens to even ONE couple is an abomination!! Good heavens!! NOTHING changes!!!! Nothing has changed. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 7:09 pm: |
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"That it happens to even ONE couple is an abomination".....in fact, that it's even a mandatory rule regardless IF anyone is getting married...is not JUST disrespectful....it is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD!!!!! it is this kind of insensitive nutty crazy 'under the law' crap that continually happened in the past. It is insane! |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 7:20 pm: |
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ok, that one got me riled. ha But again, nothing has changed. This is evident.
IT's just like being ordered to stay away from your parents, have NO more contact with your old friends(even tho' they are christian),drop out of college, give up dreams...submit every decision you have to make to the elders, in fact, no more critical thinking on your own, we will tell you how to think.....and it's 'mandatory!" everything was/is always 'mandatory!' remember MCM'er's--how we couldn't go home for Christmas....why? mandatory we HAD to GO to MLTS!!! because GOD was going to move in mighty ways....riiiiight!!!
Yup-nothing has changed! |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 212
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 8:41 pm: |
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Yeah, the "mighty ways" was sucking money out of idealistic kids who didn't know better and controlling them in an unfamiliar environment. Keep 'em off balance and easily manipulated.
"Nothing has changed"? I don't know, I think EN has gotten way better at it then Bob-O ever dreamed of. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 88
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.59.10
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 11:40 pm: |
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This is taken right from the flyer:
From the oldest to the youngest, EVERYONE MUST COME. No one is excused. Cancel your honeymoon if you have to
And, from the more extensive fold-out flyer:
From students to pastors, mothers, and father, if you are bound in sexual sinm, come and repent and be cleansed. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 149
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.89
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 2:08 am: |
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That must have been an ill advised attempt at a humorous spin on how important they feel this thing is. I'm inclined to think that it kind of exposes some deception they are under to say something this silly and print it, right in the face of factnet and their other opposition, whether its supposed to be funny or not, because of the points already made here. If it's really how they think, it is really sad and kind of stupid IMO, and I'll have to agree with Dust that things just haven't changed in many ways.
My thinking is that sometimes we here are so cynical at times, that we will find fault with anything EN is involved with for a whole host of good reasons that sometimes have little to do with the thing they're involved with. I don't know about this thing, but I think that there are a lot of well intentioned and very good things out there that sometimes EN gets involved with where we criticize the poor groups or people who started things before EN got involved.
I guess I'm saying I won't let EN's current or past practices or participation ruin all the good stuff Christianity has out there just because of their problems and the cynicism it temporarily created in me. I'm kind of swinging the old pendulum back towards putting some trust in another church and settling on some more traditional practices and looking at EN as an abberation rather than the common representation of the church. Problems and all, they still have some good features that do make them appealing to certain people, and plenty of them, right or wrong.
sameo, you guys were lucky at your mcm church. If you weren't a "leader", you just didn't get engaged around here. It was extremely bothersome to many of my friends who wanted to get married, but didn't fit the profile. I was 30 myself, and would have rather married my lovely wife 5 years earlier but that just rarely happened here.
We were rebels as it was as we just kind of discussed it on our own and informed Leo what we decided rather than submitting it. I would really raise your dander up if I told you what one of the pastors tried to do with my wife to change her mind, but it was long ago and failed miserably, unlike our marriage. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 150
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.163.57.89
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 2:12 am: |
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Oh, and by the way, i also think the river flush thing and most of that thinking is not very productive, but can sure sound good and spiritual when you're prone to swallowing most of what certain people teach. I don't want to support the call thing necessarily, because I don't know enough about it, but I don't want to automatically discount it because EN is involved either. Doesn't sound like my cup of tea though. |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 283
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 5:38 am: |
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Well Same O I never thought of that but I bet your right they must have asked some one to change their wedding plans. I do remember some old testimony where some guy in MCM was sent out on missions instead of being allowed to go on his honeymoon and he ended up getting divorced.
xman3 I doubt that is an attempt at humor it sounds like code for deliverance stuff.
As far as water spirits and the flush? Look at the mind set of this former Apostle of psychedelics. He tied his drug use to various elemental spirits like the native shamans do in South America. Sadly this guy died and one of the book reviewers wrote : Postscript: Soon after I wrote this review, I learned of D. M. Turner's untimely ketamine-related death. In light of this, my admonition to refrain from rushing in, as Turner sometimes did, where angels fear to tread, is now more imperative than ever; it is truly sad that this lesson was made evident in a manner so tragic and shocking. The psychedelic community has indeed lost a valued figure, unique and colorful even in his anonynimity. - Review by JF
So where are these guys and apostles doing this river flush thing getting their ideas from? Is it really from the Lord or are they referring to stuff they picked up from native religions or drug use? |
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 284
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 5:52 am: |
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Oh and jbk my post 275 was not meant to make sense it was sarcastic intentionally to demonstrate a mind set. If I believed what I posted how could you prove me wrong? I could say I had a revelation and saw in the spirit realm. That was my point kind of to be careful. Maybe sometimes people actually do see in the spirit realm or maybe sometimes they just think they do and what their saying is hokum.
Hatter, Jesus did rebuke the fig tree and it died but the guy that tried to cast out the green slime demon should have realized that algae is a life form and not a demon and there is a reason why God created the amazing stuff (fish love it) even though it makes swimming unpleasant. I guess God could have responded and killed off that algae but a few weeks later he would have to do it again when your friend would be to lazy or cheap to put in chlorine. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 104
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 6:59 am: |
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Is it really from the Lord or are they referring to stuff they picked up from native religions or drug use?
i have read many books about this subject earlier in my life. there is ONE (only one) scripture, where the enemies of Israel are in war with Isael and after loosing a battle, they said "teir God is a God of the mountains and our God is a God from the valleys. Lets fight them in the valleys next time."
This scripture in the OT was the only reference to "proof" this point.
The other thing was that the writers definetely and clearly said, that ie the Indians and other native tribes KNEW about the spirits/ strongholds over regions, who lived in caves, in water-sources and at rivers. Therefore the shamans of the tribes - when entereing a new region (many have been nomads) ALWAYS held a ceremony first to calm down the spirit over the region.
Therefore it is, thats hat the authors said, valid to adress them in spirtual warfare.
I do not know exactly WHICH book it was, but there is material out there from Wagner (not really surprising), Yonggi Cho and others...
Perhaps i can find the books and post the titles and authors... But many of my books are in the cellar... lets see if i like to do this. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 213
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 8:23 am: |
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Well, that makes sense, base your spiritual practices on those held in bondage to the principalities and powers of this age. The only power Satan has in this age is that of deception. When he gets people to believe then he has power over them. Christ, Who is our light, illumines our hearts and exposes the deception. As we yield our lives to Him on a day to day basis, "crucifying the flesh", we break the power of the passions and habits that our submission to deception developed in our lives. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 105
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 9:57 am: |
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Amen, Brother...
but i am wondering: did ou never hear anything about this ideas before? |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 214
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:03 am: |
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Robert, as best I can recall, this seems classic "spiritual warfare" hooey. The idea is that "principalities", "powers", "elementals", etc., all have dominions corresponding to geographical and/or political regions.
There was one guy I read at the height of my WoF days who was truly deep end demon stuff, I mean where he said he could see them. Can't remember his name, but it was something wanky and I had a bunch of his books. It's a short step from the whole spiritual warfare against demons concept to this kind of stuff. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 83
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:25 am: |
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Dust is that an EN flier or whose? actually the flier doesn't sound AS bad as it sounds just talking about it. Xman, I can see your point about attempting some humor. Slightly. However, I think the mandatory thing is real for at least the EN'ers. That's their style. That was MCM's style. That is what made us better than everyone else. Our 100% committment.
MCM-you made a really good point in post 211. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 267
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:37 am: |
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I was thinking about this stuff yesterday...I remember that when my wife and I got a new apartment or went to a hotel room, we would have a prayer 'service' and exorcise the abode from demons that may have taken up residence there.
It all sounds so stupid to me now...we seemed to give the devil his due time and time again, instead of glorifying Jesus for His redemptive power.
I guess this is why this particular subject on river spirits hit me, the stupidity of these revelations, the ones that I thought I were so spiritual in my younger years, are still going strong.
I am embarrassed to even think about when I walked around an apartment, casting out devils now. Such a waste of time!
Was this a common practice? I cannot remember.
And 40, as far as the demon/algae in the swimming pool? I think that one was my 'revelation'. I just had my friend 'agree' with me in prayer. Yes, I was an idiot. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 84
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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"That is what made us better than everyone else. Our 100% committment." (meant to be said with sarcasm)
Xman, I am sorry to hear about how you and your wife were treated. I'm so glad you have a good marriage. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 106
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:01 pm: |
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I am embarrassed to even think about when I walked around an apartment, casting out devils now. Such a waste of time!
Was this a common practice? I cannot remember.
yep- we had this also here in Austria...
but already before HP/MSI/EN... |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:01 pm: |
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No, Sameo. My discussion and questions have nothing to do with EN. I just wanted to make this clear. EN is really not very involved in this...my understanding is that many of the "charismatic churches" are involved to the degree that they are passing out flyers and fasting and going to the event as a church. I have several flyers, brochures and postcards and NO ONE from EN is mentioned. So, to xman, this is not about if an EN CHURCH participates, I am, therefore, skeptical.
My QUESTIONS started two years ago, first in EN, and then in examining the "charismatic movement" as a whole. We never stopped attending a church. THe joke in our family was how many churches we visited. But we would keep seeing this same "theme" ...the GREAT EVENT you cannot miss, and too often the pastor being center stage and not Jesus. I was sold-out and fully invested at my time in EN. We thought we could just move on to another charismatic church. But, sadly, wo would have too many questions and questions were not welcome. We are very happy in our current church. It's more about the FRUIT.
Now, regarding all the flyers and such, I want to say, GOD can do a great work through the Call if people go with hungry hearts for Him. And, no ministry effort is perfect.
But, it was not a joke about the weddings. Go to their website. THey have testimonies of weddings postponed for the call, etc. and one of the large bullet points says "It's Time to remarry the Lord! They refer to the 60's as the Great Divorce and a Great Divide as a generation turned from the heart of God and His ways. At one point they blame San Francisco experience because that makes exactly 40 years. Another paragraph they blame the Beatles.
And, there is a lot about the spirit of Jezebel. From the brochure:
"The spirit of Jezebel has a special hatred for the prophets and those who are bondservants of God, If she can't slaughter them in the womb, she seduces them into the world. And yet we tolerate the spirit in the church,"
Now maybe this is a good thing,. Maybe they are referring to the problems in the church. I am not exactly sure what it all distrurbs me so much, which is why I am asking questions.
Their are several pictures of young people all have HOLY written on their forehead. Why does THIS distrurb me. And I am a woman who cherishes a holy life.
Half of me feels guilty for bringing these questions, but I have to believe that Jesus allows for questions like this, because He knows my heart is for truth and for Him. I lived too many years in deception.
Thank you for perhaps prayerfully considering this topic, as you see it is touching me with some kind of burden I don't quite understand.
P.S. I think I would have loved to a gathering of the churches. I think the way it is "packaged" has concerned me. And, I am asking God to please show me if I have reason for concern or am just too mistrusting. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 1:05 pm: |
|
Well, the fact the marriage thing isn't an exaggeration then is NO surprise. I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but the bottom line is 'nothing has changed.' And this is typical of charismatic's in general. My cousin is part of a mega church....and there is a starbucks, a gym, a city within these walls. Becoming more withdrawn from the real world. They are becoming everybit as much as a 'sect'-more fanatical than ever. What's most disturbing is seeing the leaders become more and more wealthy because of it. Tho' I know that's a subject we've already discussed.
The whole thing is just sooo weird...and all I can say Is Thank God I'm not there. And I'm sorry these people are. I know what you mean, Dust....why would it disturb us that they have "holy' written on their forheads....yet, it's dusturbing because it's plain ol' weird.
I spent nearly 10 yrs. of my young life doing these kinds of 'work' oriented things....exhausted, and I too had my honeymoon affected by 'ministry.' (though I don't feel the need to go into it) This isn't so uncommon. As one leader said...."it's not about our happiness...we aren't put here on this earth to be happy, we're put here to serve God" (just another tactic to manipulate) |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 215
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 2:49 pm: |
|
I have no problem sanctifying an abode, a house of worship, etc., etc., to God. In Orthodoxy one can have a "house blessing" each year and is tied to the Theophany of Christ (i.e. His baptism) in which all the waters of earth are sanctified.
But the idea that there are ruling demonic powers for every geographical feature is a hold over from paganism.
Dust, I heard a wise man long ago say "God doesn't mind any honest questions". We all know a dishonest seeker or questioner when we see one, but when we have honest doubts or questions about something, ultimately those can only serve to strengthen our faith. People who castigate those with honest doubts and certainly not displaying the attitude the Apostle Paul speaks about regarding bearing each other's burdens and strengthening the "weaker brethren". |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 5:31 pm: |
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Dust,
I can relate to your adventures in finding a church post MCM/EN. I've found Charismatics will attend the hyperbolic hooplafied meetings day in, day out but have no substance. I'm curious how many clamoring for the collective political slash demonic head on a post actually pray on a regular if not daily basis. We held corporate prayer shindigs in Maranatha all the time and I don't see any fruit of it. Personal time in the word etc. was encouraged but it wasn't a tangible presence in our ideology-works were.
Here's a radical notion-silence. The early church met in secret they were circumspect about their publicity because it meant their lives literally. Nero used Christians soaked in pitch to light a party once it became his undoing. If ever there was a tangible evil present it was there and the mute testimony of those Christians turned a mighty empire.
One oddity of these folk is the statement that one-third of Jesus' ministry was deliverance. Ok what about the robes and sandals part, the seeking out the lost and downcast, opposing the religious establishment, the death part.I think Jesus' ministry has much to say about His poverty and not weilding His power and flexing His muscle. He said as much to Pilate the embodiment of the evil of His day. Yet He stood there and trusted God there was no mass deliverance hoopla on that day. Just the raw power of God's love that in an afternoon changed the course of history.
The church will have no influence other than what it gins up of itself until it makes disciples of Jesus and equips the saints for their work, not usurping them.
Jonesee |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 90
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.163.158
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 7:39 pm: |
|
Sameo: OK. I didn't think I was downplaying it.
Dust: That language from the flyer is pretty bad; I'm kind of shocked Lou Engle and company would stoop to these tricks.
40: Okay, but your sarcasm is hard to follow.
Dust: I agree with you that their stuff about re-marrying Jesus and the 1960s is kind of weird. However, regarding the Jezebel spirit, that is a real issue in the body of Christ, and it is even more of an issue in charismatic circles than non-charismatic churches (like the one you attend). Of course, non-charismatic churches are NOT immune from manipulation and control, which are the hallmarks of the Jezebel spirit. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 107
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:05 am: |
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manipulation and controle are simply bad and disrespectful characteristics and bad human behaviour. i would not call this a "spirit" anymore. every person tends to develope these things. some more and some less.
i have been in spiritual warfare on a weekly base (every monday) for at least 7 or 8 years (during my time in HP)...
it has NOT brought any fruit. no revival. no deliverance. no breakthrough. therefore i can say it does not work. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 108
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:09 am: |
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the reason christians call this "a spirit of Isebel" is because we see the biblical figure Isebel acting this way. But is it logical to asume every manipulative person has a "spirit of isebel"? how can this practicaly happen? did the spirit of izebel clone itselve and now there is one for every charismatic in the spiritual realm waitng for an invitation to move into the person? how many "spirits of izebel" are there? 1 Billion? 200 Million? One? how does this ONE move into so many people the same time?
remember - the devil is not omnipresent like God, and the number of his servants (the demons) is limited... there was only one third of the angels who followed him into rebellion... i dont know the number anymore, but its too less for every person on earth... |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 109
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:48 am: |
|
One oddity of these folk is the statement that one-third of Jesus' ministry was deliverance. Ok what about the robes and sandals part, the seeking out the lost and downcast, opposing the religious establishment, the death part.I think Jesus' ministry has much to say about His poverty and not weilding His power and flexing His muscle. He said as much to Pilate the embodiment of the evil of His day. Yet He stood there and trusted God there was no mass deliverance hoopla on that day. Just the raw power of God's love that in an afternoon changed the course of history.
VERY good point John!!
One other thing to consider is the fact that all the deliverance seminaries, sessions, ministries are targeted towards CHRISTIANS.
I did not see Jesus cast out demons of his disciples. did you? he always ministered deliverance to realy demoniced people, just like the guy with the legion, but not to his disciples. he did also not adress "isebel spirits" in "manipulaitive women" amongst his disciples nor did he adress generational curses...
my opinion is this:
the charismatic world is strongly influenced by the false ideas about revivalism with all its highlights (mass-healings, deliverance, etc...) and with many wrong ideas like "anointing" etcetc... people are fanatics. they NEED to see miracles all the time.
fact is - miracles dont happen all the time, and all the great things that got promised from stage by the NOLR/ NAR guys and the guys who got influenced by them dont happen.
so they need to create a lot of effort to "produce" the results. if a miracle is not happenening, there is too less faith or a curse. next step is a faith seminar or a deliverance seminar to produce this faith or to get rid of the curse. because then the miracles could happen...
how often have i heared from hartless preachers or church-members that "the church has not enough faith" or "the pastor has not enough faith" or "there must be something wrong in this church, because there is no anointing/ to less miracles/ too less growth...".
much of the charismatic is based on a whacky idea of "if you do the right thing, you will have growth/ anointing/ wealth...".
but they forget about the sufferings of the old church in the times of the book of acts. they read about miracles in china but forget about the suffering of the church in china.
somehow the charismatic western church lives in a state of superstition. the want to produce an environement where God can work the things they want him to do.
But can we really make God do things we want him to do? isnt this wrong? i mean HE is GOD. HE does what HE WANTS to do WHEN he wants it to do and HOW he wants it to do.
all our charismatic superstitional "preparing God a way" is IMO close to magic. as if God is just a power that gets active if a coroporate people does the right things...
the charismatic western church is in a terrible and frightening state.
i believe in miracles. i do. but i cannot MAKE God do a miracle! |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 91
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.163.158
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:52 am: |
|
Robert: I don't think every person develops manipulation and control, as you do. Yes, some people do have manipulation and control issues, but others suffer from the other end --- they learn to be manipulated and controlled too much --- they do not learn how to withstand such manipulation and control.
Robert, I disagree with your analysis based on your experience. I would say, based on my experience, the exact opposite. Who's right?
Further, Robert, manipulation is clearly a sin, according to the Scriptures, putting aside the story of Jezebel. There is ONE spirit of Jezebel, but it affects many. How does ONE spirit affect so many? Well --- think about it Robert --- as Christians, each of us is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I ask you this: How can the ONE Holy Spirit indwell ALL believers?
Lastly, a demon is not a spirit. You are right in that demons cannot be pervasive. But spirits most definitely CAN be pervasive. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 110
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:36 am: |
|
I don't think every person develops manipulation and control, as you do.
you understood me wrong. i dont believe EVERYONE developes it. i think every person has the ABILITY to develope it. and based on education, childhood, other influences and own decisions everyone can be able to develope more or less of this behaviour (which is of course bad). look into our society? or in the churches.
Well --- think about it Robert --- as Christians, each of us is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I ask you this: How can the ONE Holy Spirit indwell ALL believers?
Jonathan. i hope you have learned in your live as a christian, that the Holy Spirir, because he is GOD is OMNIPRESENT, and therefore is ABLE to dwell in every believer.
Your argumentation shows to me, that you dont have a solid understanding of demonology and theology.
A demon or spirit can NOT dwell in more than ONE person at a time, because it is part of the creation and therefore limited (it has a beginning and a end, it has boundaries and borders...). it is definitely not omnipresent like the Holy Spirit and can therefore definitely NOT indwell more than one people at the same time.
you cannot compare the Holy Spirits abilities to the abilities of spirits.
if "spirit" is for you another word for "attitude", i can agree with you. as i said - everyone is tempted with sin and bat attidues.
but if you understand with "spirit" an invisible demonic beeing, than i cannot agree.
i think we can talk about the "attitude of Isebel" or the "sin of Isebel", but to say to people that they have a "spirit of Isebel" is theological NONSENSE for the reasons i have given to you.
However - i understand and agree that there is a big problem with this sin/ behaviour/ attitude in many churches. but i dont think its a "spiritual problem", but rather a problem of human nature.
the interesting part would be to analyze why this problem is so widely spread in churches... also among leaders and pastor.
what do you think are the reasons? |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 111
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:40 am: |
|
if you follow my argumentation, that manipulation is sin or bad behaviour or sinful attitude rather than the indwelling of a spirit (which is not possible because ONE spirit cannot indwell in many people at the same time - so the spirit of Isebell cannot indwell all people with this attitude or sin), then you can see that deliverance is the WRONG attempt to stop this problem. it simply will not work. you cannot cast out the flesh/ sinful nature out of people.
teaching about it would be a solution. counseling and helping people to understand that it is sin to manipulate can be a solution.
but deliverance will not work.
Lastly, a demon is not a spirit.
?? what else is a demon than a spirit? an angel is a spirit and a demon is a fallen angel. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 112
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:51 am: |
|
Robert, I disagree with your analysis based on your experience. I would say, based on my experience, the exact opposite. Who's right?
scripture is right! and as long as i dont see a clear teaching/ doctrine in scripture about this subject, i will not agree with it anylonger.
the church during all of history NEVER engaged in this kind of "spiritual warfare" like we see it since the last - lets say 20 to 25 years.
so i assume its just an invention of some people.
the evidence to me that its wrong is
1- its has not been practised during 2000 years of church history (only lately) nor by the early church
2- it does not bring the fruit that the supporters promised (neither personaly nor regionaly)- and thats not only MY experience. its the experience of alle the churches here in the region and also of other posters
3- its not written in the bible. all the scriptures used to support it are taken out of context or have very weak scriptural suport (like subject-oriented preaching).
4- some of the practises clearly violate the scripture (ie we shall not talk to angelic beeings...)
5- some of the practices are clearly pagan (ie "water-spirits" are NEVER mentioned in the bible) and shamanistic and used in native tribes ("delivering a nation"...) |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 113
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 4:28 am: |
|
if God wants us to pray against principalities and powers he would clearly say this in his word. like the emphasis the Holy Spirit lays on character and holiness. There is so much written in the New testament regarding charakter.
and there is so much problems in the church today with sin.
its easy to blame "demons" for this, while we sit on our chairs not even thinking about repenting and changing attitudes, opinions, livestyle...
the divorcerate among christians is higher than in society. all kind of sins. people not able to break their habbits.
but we go out on "spiritual warfare", because its safe when "we are under apostolic covering"...
The danger with spiritual warfare is that we enter a region, that God doesnt allow us to enter. He doesnt tell us to enter it and he warns us about it. |
pilgrim
Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 56
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.129
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 5:11 am: |
|
I think that many pharisees today behave in the same way as Jezebel and do not want to repent. I think that it is easier to blame Jezebel for their behaviour than to admit that they like to manipulate and control people and to simply repent of that behavior.
Anyway, almost everyone in Maranatha, Argentina got delivered from the spirit of Jezebel including myself and the leaders before the end of 1981 but the leaders continue the same manipulative and controlling behaviour after the deliverance. In fact, I believe that the cult became more controlling towards the end of 1981 and beginning of 1982. So it did not work.
They were delivered from the spirit of Jezebel and said that they had repented but they did not repent at that time for running a mind control cult.
They should had simply repented but unfortunately, they were so deluded with the false latter rain doctrines in my opinion that they could not even see that they were running a dangerous mind control cult.
Jezebel also ran a cult to worship baal instead of the creator of the whole universe. People who behave in this manner hate real christians who are guided by the holy spirit because such christians teach that we should submit to Jesus Christ alone and not to earthly leaders.
Cult leaders can NOT run their abusive $$$$$$cult with people who are fully guided by the holy spirit and submit directly to Jesus Christ alone
The Jezebel story is a good story to see the human nature, without God humans like to have power, to control, manipulate and take other people property with deceit. Jezebel hated Elijah because he submitted to the one true God and taught other people to do the same instead of staying in Jezebel's mind control cult that worshiped baal.
I had had the opportunity to travel in many parts of the world and despite of different cultures I had found that the human nature without God is the same anywhere in the world. |
jayhernandez
Member
Username: jayhernandez
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 64.198.236.246
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 5:30 am: |
|
Just my opinion - I think that whole Jezza-hell-bell thing has it's root in a Polythiest world! There have been Polythiest and it started with Satan himself who thouhgt him self better then God. Yet, I don't call him God. Therefore, Jezabel isn't a God. Jezzy and Satan two different things? Maybe like a trinity sort of understanding? 3 in 1, 2 in 1, a million in one in 1, I doubt it!
How big would the ratio have to be to be big enough to influence my prayers? How big does God Almighty have to be in order for me to get my stubborn butt down to even pray to him- or speak with him as a friend.
I never have to send someone out into the world to do as God says- to mission- and send them off with a pat on the butt and say "Oh BTW, be careful for Jezzy"....let alone fill the isles in a church with people who feel like they are watching a Stephen King Movie. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 268
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 9:16 am: |
|
I have no problem sanctifying an abode, a house of worship, etc., etc., to God. In Orthodoxy one can have a "house blessing" each year
I think this states my point better than I did, why did we waste time addressing the devil when the POWER is in the blessing of the Lord? We should have been praying for the blessings of God over our homes, etc instead of looking for a lil demon under every two by four.
Krems, pray tell, how has your experience shown that this fixation on deliverance and demonology changed anything in a significant manner?
It does, as Jay says, remind me of some superstitious polytheist culture that would rather address hundreds of spirits instead of magnifying the one living God! |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 119
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 9:28 am: |
|
I think Satan tempted Jesus in this manner when he said all of these kingdoms will be yours if you bow down and worship me. Jesus didn't need to fixate on those kingdoms or demonic realms He was looking to His Father, "I do what I see my Father in heaven doing." I agree that it is a modern incarnation of polytheism and "Ooga Boogaism." Jesus as a mystic had His focus on His Father's kingdom-"Repent for the kingdom of God is nigh." Good advice for us now.
Jonesee |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 269
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:07 am: |
|
Good point Jonesee, I think Jesus gave us the path to follow, keep our eyes on the Father, believe in His power!
I would hope that The Call would center in on the gross sin that has grasped the charismatic movement, and not spend time rebuking some imaginary Jezebel spirit, but repenting for the sins of religious pride, lust for money, and just plain tackiness that lays squarely at the feet of the world of charismania.
My guess it that it will be a big rock concert with some yelling and wailing going on, but never a time of silence before God, of personal reflection and humility. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 91
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 11:09 am: |
|
Thank you all for your tender responses and thought on this topic. I have talked to some more people today, and there are others who are concerned who have never been hurt in a church, etc. Some of the concerns is the targeting of the youth because of their gullibility…that they will believe anything and the use of the special numbers 777.
What is this spirit of Jezebel? How bonafide is it to the Christian faith. I went to 12 years of daily catholic religious instruction and never had heard of it.
My mother is saved and in a very grounded Christian church, and they don’t use this terminolgy. They are too busy feeding the poor and studying the WHOLE bible.
MCM said: But the idea that there are ruling demonic powers for every geographical feature is a hold over from paganism.
Let’s explore this. I would like more information on this form of paganism.
MCM78 also said, “it’s a spirit of deception.” I agree.
JRJ inspired this thought? Why didn’t Jesus standing there before Pilate, just do a mass deliverance? Well, JRJ, I guess he thought humility, love, sacrifice was the REAL way to defeat the enemy.
Did you go to the website and see the testimony about the couple who publicly apologized to the pastor who wanted them to postpone their wedding for the call. They had nothing to apologize for, but young people are gullible and they want to be approved. They used this example to get others to follow submissively.
Many young people today are coming from broken homes. They are looking for approval and acceptance and belonging.
Robert said this is all geared towards “Christians” and it is.
Robert, you made a good argument on many levels, but especially in your post 112. And I’m sorry, JbkREMS, I am shocked that you would compare a demon spirit with the Holy Spirit on “equal” terms. The Holy Spirit is God, all powerful, almighty, omnipotent, omnipresent, and we are created in HIS image and we are indwelt as believers with HIS spirit.
Demons cannot multiply. This is the fault-line of deliverance ministry. The WORD asks us to confess of OUR SIN, not our demonic possession. We are repent of our SIN NATURE, and our SINS, seek God's forgiveness, and then become a NEW CREATION, indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We aren't born POSSESSED with demons. Demons are limited, they are not our creators…we are not created in demon’s image and they cannot indwell Christians. Forget using this term jezebel spirit. We should just say sin, apostasy, deception, lies, immorality, corruption, whatever the sin is and not try to blanket it under some spirit. The REMEDY is not a spell or command to a demon to leave. The REMEDY for sin inside church leadeship is humility, REPENTANCE, salvation, turning to GOD and bowing down to HIM, claiming HIS SOVERIENTY and submitting to HIS word to His ways. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 92
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 11:26 am: |
|
All from the Brochure:
On 07.07.07 tens of thousands from across America will gather in Nashville to fast, pray, and cry out to God for a massive youth movement, even greater than the Jesus Movement!
There is a moment in history called "the fullness of time" when the old order of things crumbles and a new movement arises, another generation steps into their destiny and the SOUND of a new spiritual awakening reverberates across the land.
It's time to release a Holy Renaissance that will transform Global Culture.
And then they repeat this:
A new sound explodes. There is a moment in history called, "fullness of time" when the old order of things crumbles and a new movement arises. Another generation steps into their destiny and the sound of a new spiritual awakening reverberates across the land.
The sound that detonated the rebellion of the 60's was the new music of the Beatles. It's time to redeem the MUSIC OF MASS INFLUENCE to shift a new generation into their destiny and ignite a mass evangelism on an unprecedented scale.
Nashville is home to more musicians and songwriters than any other city. In the Music Capital of the world, we want to release an explosion of sound that will rip through the atmosphere and shift the heavens. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 216
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 11:35 am: |
|
Yeah, I want to know what a demon is if not a "spirit".
People don't sin because they have some "spirit" of such and such sin, they sin because they have "lusts" within them that they are drawn to and when temptation arises that appeals to that "lust" (passion, habit, desire) they sin. As James states "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:14-15. Note, not when some "spirit" seduces him, but when he is drawn away by his own lust and, giving in to the lust, he sins.
The problem with the "faith" demonstrated by groups that believe such things is that it is little more than gnosticism and magic. If you just believe the right thing, say the right words, you will have "deliverance". And it the "deliverance" doesn't come you didn't believe right, speak right, or somehow you ruined your "confession" by some negative word or "unbelieving" action. All in an attempt to control God and control the world around you.
You want deliverance? Learn to crucify your flesh! Learn to fast and pray and flee from temptation. Learn to bring you body under subjection. Learn humility. Learn meekness. Learn silence. These are the things that will kill the passions and bring "deliverance" from sin.
Our biggest problem is not "spirits", but our own arrogant pride. The Kingdom of God is within, it must be "built" from the inside out. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 271
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 1:06 pm: |
|
How does ONE spirit affect so many? Well --- think about it Robert --- as Christians, each of us is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I ask you this: How can the ONE Holy Spirit indwell ALL believers?
Lastly, a demon is not a spirit.
This is not a personal attack, but more a comment on your strange theology. Of all the Kremsy things you have said, this has to be the Kremsiest. Please try to offer something that adds to this conversation other than this. You show how little you really understand about the Spirit of God with this ridiculous comparison. It is insulting to the point of blasphemous to mention some make believe 'stronghold' in the same breath with the Holy Spirit.
Dust the thing you said about never hearing about "Jezebel" growing up, or your mother's experience is exactly right on. This type of thinking does NOT exist in my church. If this 'revelation' was so all fired important, why was it only revealed to this bunch of people? And 78 is correct, these are issues of sin that the fleshly church needs to repent from. Not some demon spirit 'controlling' things. How insulting to the spirit and power of God! |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:22 pm: |
|
his has to be the Kremsiest.
Sorry, but that's funny and Jonathan it's true. Only you would come up with such a thing.
So I was talking about the 60's. Were the 60's the WORST most time in American history that has caused the spiraling down of society. Well, now that would depend on your vantage point.
If you were a black American, you finally had true freedom to vote via the Civil RIghts Act of 1964, and the white south had to make some serious readjustments to their character. (The south had passed laws on voting making it near IMPOSSIBLE for a black person to vote, so much so that a federal law had to be passed).
And, then, of course, the KKK started long before the 60's had to regroup. And, many unfair acts of discrimination were challenged as society rebelled via Rosa Parks.
If you were a woman, you could finally make better money, get the job, and entrance into some colleges previously closed by men.
If you were vietnamese, you could come over on a little boat, and set up a business and have a new life.
If you were a young male, you could die in a stupid war.
But, the only thing the charismatic church seems able to focus on is sexual immorality. How many babies were born to slaves through their white masters? No one wants to ask that question, because it deflates the INVENTION OF SEXUAL IMMORALITY of the 60's. But those same HIPPIE/rebels were very tolerant of injustice!
How about the deals the masons made and their occult practices?
How about the civil war where Christians killed Christians over greed, power, land, and human property? UGH
How about prohibition and organized crime?
Does anyone really believe the Beatles have caused the demise of this country? Or Rock and Roll? Or even Sex?
Sexual immorality is part of humanity away from God. It is NOT the cause itself...it is the fruit of a deeper problem.
Being sexually moral never equates with holiness. You can never assume that if one is sexually moral, they are saved or they are holy. But when someone IS holy, does live pure heartedly for God, the natural fruit of that is sexual morality and actually a better word, SEXUAL HEALTHINESS. Sex that is enjoyed in convenant, love, and bonding that is fun, exciting, and a gift from God.
Most of these charismatics makes sex look frightening. And they focus on the negative instead of the gift of sex from God.
And, what I've experienced is those the LOUDEST about sexual morality usually have issues and are committing sin deceptively, gaining sexual favors from the congregation. People that are sexually healthy don't talk about sexual immorality all that much because that is not their world. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 115
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:16 pm: |
|
MCM said: But the idea that there are ruling demonic powers for every geographical feature is a hold over from paganism.
Let’s explore this. I would like more information on this form of paganism.
ie. study the ideas of the indians in america. they believed in this sort of spirits.
So I was talking about the 60's.
its ridiculous that this guys blame the 60´s for everything evil that came afterwars. was the time before BETTER? have they never read the state of society before? how much sin has there been ie before the welsh revival in ireland.
in europe, before WW1 EVERYTHING evil was done, and it was even worse than today. pornography and prostitution was shockingly gruel, involving mnors and pregnant women. homosexuality was socialy acceptable and practiced even up into high political families. drug abuse was not prohibited. violence in families and in society was normal.
this was before the 60´s.
people who blame the 60´s dont understand what really happened in the 60´s. it was the young people who started to question the old and stiff hypocracy in society. on one side there was a conservative all dominating livestyle, but behind the scenes it was not so holy.
the young people, specially the Beatles, where looking for THE TRUTH.
unfortunatley the church missed a big, big oportunity to offer them truth and love. so these young people where looking for it in eastern religion and in drugs.
a part of my family was big involved in the 60´s revolution, and their sons, my cousins, are the most loveable, gentle and honest people i know. i often say to my wife, if only half of the christians would have this kind of charakter, the new-age movement and the 60´s revolution would not have happened.
sorry. of course the sixties opened a door. a wrong door. but i do not question the motives of many of these young people.
isnt it a SHAME that the conservative society before the sixties was NOT able to grant black people and women the same rights as white males? isnt it a SHAME that christian people supported KKK?
these people TOTALY miss the point. they blame the devil and they blame people who opose their world view for everything evil, and they miss the point that we ALL need Jesus Christ, but NOT a cultural revolution.
There is a moment in history called "the fullness of time" when the old order of things crumbles and a new movement arises, another generation steps into their destiny and the SOUND of a new spiritual awakening reverberates across the land.
and this is nothing else then the language of the devil in form of widely accepted NOLR terminology!
we dont need a "new movement", or a "new spiritual awakening".
We need only to come BACK to JESUS CHRIST.
i am more afraid of a "new spiritual awakening" than of the sixties. I do believe that a "new movement" will be nothing else than a new religious system which is NOT christian, but a mixture of paganism and christian terminology which will lead many good people astray... |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 218
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:18 pm: |
|
I missed the question regarding how does one Holy Spirit indwell all believers. It is, of course, quite simple: The Holy Spirit, being God, is omnipresent. This is an attribute of the divine Godhead. A demonic spirit, including the devil, not being God, is not omnipresent, nor omniscient, nor any other divine quality. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:33 pm: |
|
I typed a mistake: But those same HIPPIE/rebels were very tolerant of injustice! I meant to say they were NOT tolerant of injustice.
Robert, You have made my day. Everything that was in head that I didn't say you finished. And I thank God that he can bring his truth between us across the world.
MCM, you're in good graces today...with GOOD THEOLOGY!
Robert, thank you again, because I was discussing with my husband and I'm supposed to be preparing for a dinner party and I keep coming back to my computer somewhat unable to shake this off my mind. I started prayer. I really believe most of us on this board know fully what to pray for.
I too am more afraid of a so-called spiritual awakening. What I received alone and outside of a church in 1998 is available to anyone right now today....an invitation from Jesus Christ. No drum roll, no fan fare...this gift of life. And I think it was JRJ who said, it had to be kept quiet (as it does in China today) for they would have been killed. So much to think about today.
And I have a lot of love and gratitude to you all for having this place of discussion. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 117
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:37 pm: |
|
yep, Dust, you wrotee also much that i would thought of... nice that you are back here on FN after your vacation |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 220
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:44 pm: |
|
quote:dust: I too am more afraid of a so-called spiritual awakening.
A Buddhist/Nihilist turned Orthodox monk in the 60s and 70s (Fr. Seraphim (Rose)) wrote a long treatise on what he saw as "the religion of the future", i.e. the "whore Babylon" spoken of in the Apocalypse. He viewed it as an amalgam of "spirituality" that was void of the essential incarnation Truth of Christ, His diety, the Trinity, and true Christian spirituality (a life of humility and the cross).
While it is easy to identify this in the New Age religious movements and vague "spirituality" of so many, it is less easy to see it in those that may be vocally "christian". The words are often there, the scriptures even, but the meanings are twisted and the motives are power, greed, lust, even if disguised and hidden (even deep in the heart). When we are arrogant, proud in our own "spirituality", we are ripe for the picking and fall easily to seducing spirits who appear as "angels of light". |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 221
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:51 pm: |
|
Dust, glad to be in "good graces". |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 97
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:56 pm: |
|
and the motives are power, greed, lust, even if disguised and hidden
Mcm, sadly, it's not that hidden.
And the thing about most new agers...they are kind and compassionate. I doubt that any eastern religious or new agers were part of the KKK.
The kids of the 60's did question authority of the time and they were seeking answers and a lot of "rebellion" came from a very dark and stupid war in Viet Nam. That little piece of history isn't mentioned and it was THIS WAR that started the rebellion against authority, as we had a DRAFT, and we made young men fight a stupid war and die. They came back as drug addicts, broken and rejected with blood on their hands. Compare that to some pre-marital sex.
P.S. I inherited about 10 vinyl albums of the Beatles. Is this causing a spiritual problem for me? Uh, NO.... |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 223
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 4:03 pm: |
|
Dust, the most stupid thing I ever did (well, okay, not the most stupid thing, cause I sure did (and do) a lot, but certainly right up there) is when I joined MCM I either sold or trashed a collection of well over 400 LPs collected over approx. 8 years. I thought I wasn't being "spiritual" and the teaching was the very objects could being a conduit for demons and spirits. Now, I admit I had some trashy stuff. But I had a ton of good stuff too, stuff I have since re-purchased.
BTW, the sixties weren't quite so idealistic, but that's another story. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 118
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 4:16 pm: |
|
60's did question authority
perhaps they did just question the abuse of authority... and the hypocracy of the religous establishement... thats just what kids thrue all ages did...
so its unfair from the "new movement" (or better the people who wanna be the "new religious establishement") to blame the 60´s kids for all the evil on earth and not questioning their own motives and hidden things. why do THEY want to have a "new order"? why do THEY want now that "old order of things crumbles"? isnt that also a "rebellious spirit", the very thing they blame the 60´s generation or even christians, namely people like you and I, who opose their crazy ideas about a "new order" or "submission" under their selve apointed authority?
IMO these guys are trying to drive out the Satan with Belzebul... just my five cents! |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 92
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.163.158
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:05 pm: |
|
Robert: I'm sorry, I did understand you wrong. Yes, everyone has the ability, as you said, to develop into areas of manipulation and control, which is bad no matter if you call it a spirit, or an attitude.
That being said, when I say something is a spirit, I really do not mean a demon, but more so of an impregnated attitude that definitely is representative and indicative of sin. I think we would agree on that. Thus, the "spirit of Jezebel" is basically an attitude of one of manipulation and control, just like Jezebel behaved in the Scriptures. And, furthermore, you do NOT have to be a woman to have this spirit or attitude --- it is an equal opportunity attitude, regardless of gender.
And Robert, I think manipulation and control, and also intimidation is so prevalent in the church because (1) the world mindset encourages it, and (2) some pastors are weak and passive and tolerate it. The church can lack strong leaders, and I think that contributes to it.
Lastly, Robert, as regards to angels and demons and spirits --- to me, a spirit is more of an attitude than an invisible spiritual being. I do agree that demons are essentially fallen angels, but I would never say an angel is a spirit being --- I would say an angel is an angel, and nothing more.
Robert, you cannot interpret the Bible based on your experience. I looked at your 1-5 reasons why such and such is wrong, and most boils down to your experience. Just because some in the church have not practiced it, and because you and others have not seen fruit (while others HAVE seen fruit indeed), doesn't mean its not true. The only valid argument you make concerns talking with angelic beings, and I have already said here that so long as you command angels to line up with the Word of God, that is the only kind of communication allowed between humans and angels. Otherwise, yes, you are right, there. Lastly, I do not see some of these practices as paganistic, like you do.
Finally, Robert, God does expressly tell us to pray against principalities and powers in Eph. 6. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 93
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.163.158
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:17 pm: |
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Matt: I don't think there is a fixation on deliverance and/or demonology in the circles I associate with. I think there is an emphasis and fixation on bringing healing to people, and setting people free from bondages than oppression that they face. I think that is what Christ came to do, while he was here, to bring complete salvation, which means sozo in Greek, and sozo means wholeness, not only in one's spirit, but in one's soul emotionally, and in one's body, physically. Thus, that is the emphasis --- not so much on demons --- but on setting people free from addictions and bondages and oppression. Make sense?
Dust: You're right that demons cannot multiply, but demons can oppress multiple persons at the same time. For instance, many people are oppressed by demons of addiction, or pornography. These people clearly need to be set free from that junk. However, while no demon can possess a Christian, a demon can VEX a person, and multiple persons can be vexed by the same kind of demon at the same time. We see this all the time with issues of fear, lack, and other bondages like addiction and porn. This is what I meant, and I'm sorry that the Holy Spirit analogy was inappropriate.
Dust, the only thing that I really have an issue with in your post 92 was the stuff about the 60s and the Beatles. I do think they honeymoon issue is inappropriate, but as regards to post 92, I think most of that is acceptable, except for the Beatles part.
That's all for now. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 273
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:40 pm: |
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Robert, you cannot interpret the Bible based on your experience
to me, a spirit is more of an attitude than an invisible spiritual being.
Krems within three sentences, you contradict your own premise. Robert can't base something on experience, but you can??
Please quit making these threads about the theology of Jonathan, you are really starting to look foolish.
This thread is about something very crucial that seems to be a continuing theme of deception in the charismatic church, the deception of young gullible people.
Your 'take' on theology is not important here, you take people down a road for argument sake, but most have realized that your statements are so contradictory that it is just difficult to engage you in here.
Please find a theology thread to discuss your personal beliefs (and that is what they are). This is a subject that I have become very interested in for some reason, and I can't quite figure out why. There is just something about this thing in Nashville that reminds me of Washington for Jesus back in my day. I am interested in hearing others comments about it. I am NOT interested in hearing another round of Kremstheology, sorry. |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:34 pm: |
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Preach it, hatter! I agree! |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 275
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:49 pm: |
|
I think a lot of people have come to the same conclusion, Sammy.
Dust, who is the guy with the hoarse voice that is featured in a lot of the video clips? He seems to just go into another realm when he starts 'preaching'. I can see him really manipulating young people.
I may be wrong, but when you get to his age, you have an understanding within your soul that you have the ability to manipulate gullible young people. It is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly.
Washington for Jesus in RFK stadium was a disaster. Keith Green gave a scathing sermon about the thing being nothing more than a rock concert. Then people starting wailing, but it was strange, animalistic sounding at times. I can't remember if Tik was with us, but whoever was close by, sat quietly like Allie and I and cut our eyes at one another. We finally got up and left. It disturbed me greatly, and I was a 'true believer' at the time. The Call, especially the video trailers, remind me so much of that gathering. It was, in a word, chilling.
I would be interested to hear if anyone else that was at the RFK had a similar experience. |
jbkrems
Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 94
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.163.158
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:47 am: |
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Matt: I never based my theology on my experience. My thought to Robert is that he says there is no fruit to this stuff, and he says that by his exprience. I said there WAS fruit based on my own experience, and because we differ on this, we cannot use experience as a measure to either reject as Robert does, or to validate it as you might perceive I do. |
john_r_jones
Intermediate Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 120
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 3:06 am: |
|
Matt,
To me the basis of these things is seeking political clout the spiritual dynamics though are certainly striking. After WFJ Maranatha went in the direction of gutting their original churches and disassembling relationships in these churches. There are a variety of reasons for this but the outcome was the germ of Maranatha's downfall. These opportunists display a marked lack of concern for the people and a penchant for self promotion. The marriage disruptions and such indicate their callousness toward people. I'm certain some figure like Keith Green will castigate the folks there as well and an emotional frenzy will ensue. Basically it seems to me a fools errand to call people to prayer in a modern church that by and large doesn't pray indiviually. I guess we'll coerce God by sheer numbers to do our bidding.
Let's see 1976-2007 thirty-one years later and still doing the same stuff.
Jonesee |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 119
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 7:35 am: |
|
and most boils down to your experience.
here they are again:
1- its has not been practised during 2000 years of church history (only lately) nor by the early church
2- it does not bring the fruit that the supporters promised (neither personaly nor regionaly)- and thats not only MY experience. its the experience of alle the churches here in the region and also of other posters
3- its not written in the bible. all the scriptures used to support it are taken out of context or have very weak scriptural suport (like subject-oriented preaching).
4- some of the practises clearly violate the scripture (ie we shall not talk to angelic beeings...)
5- some of the practices are clearly pagan (ie "water-spirits" are NEVER mentioned in the bible) and shamanistic and used in native tribes ("delivering a nation"...)
there is only ONE (1) which has to do with my personal experience. All the others are hard facts. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 276
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 9:27 am: |
|
I'm certain some figure like Keith Green will castigate the folks there as well and an emotional frenzy will ensue. Basically it seems to me a fools errand to call people to prayer in a modern church that by and large doesn't pray indiviually. I guess we'll coerce God by sheer numbers to do our bidding.
John, you put your finger on what I have been trying to figure out about this thing. There has been such an uneasiness about the video trailers.
Things have changed greatly in one respect since WFJ. The video age has come into its own, with Youtube, etc. Are we going to see thousands of young people wailing and barking like dogs? I don't know. But you are right, the charismatic church continues to think that by having a magnanimous event, it will somehow get God's attention and change the political climate. This mentality scattered hundreds of naive kids back in the seventies, as they put the mission over the person. It borders on idolatry, much like the Tower of Babel.
Krems, I refuse to engage you; turning another thread into "what Krems believes" has gotten so friggin old. That you don't see this only adds to your obtuse personality. Please stay on subject or bow out. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 9:56 am: |
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I think for us who have already been through the "large crowd" phenomenon, we have sensitivity and for good reason. My background is psycholgy, sociology, especially in area of group dynamics. I have fallen into traps of "group think" twice in my life now. Meaning this: My beliefs became skewed by the power of the group. And, fortunately I was able to see my way out of it and get perspective.
The "power" or "energy" in a large group, especially 100,000 people concerns me because these 100,000 are already led into believing in this concept called "the fullness of time." There is no doubt amongst anyone that the youth are targeted for this event, and they are fasting for forty days and most have been asked to fast the entire day of the event. This adds to people's vulnerability to be pursuaded.
Many of the things The Call stands for such as abortion and sexual purity, I, too agree with. However, I don't ever agree with targeting youth groups for God, and I deem this unhealthy. I don't agree with the packaging for "expectation" of this EVENT that will shatter heaven and bring revival. My fear is that it will bring an "experience" and maybe even a pledge of virginity. But holiness doesn't lead to God. God leads to holiness.
The idea of criticizing an entire generation of the 60's with partical facts isn't accurate and serves no good purpose, except to convince young people of their special destiny, as if this decade hasn't already convinced them it's all about THEM. The truth is it's not about any decade or people group or a new generation's destiny. There is no waiting to see if a messiah will be born. He has already come.
Each decade has its problems. It's called "humanity away from God." And sin is the same today as from the beginning.
It is a master manipulation to young people to try and convince them that they are the "special" generation that will solve the problems of the world. The only problem solver for the world is Jesus Christ. They are also marketing this event in such a way as if there are NO Christians in America, none from the 60's, as if the entire USA has fallen away from God and everything depends on them to save it.
There was a famous australian preacher who was very mean to his wife most of his life. She was a dutiful, sweet wife to him, as he would lock her out of the house. And, then one day, he got saved in his 60's. He repented and changed completely, and went on to preach to tens of thousands.
We want to put our world into a box. But, God doesn't work this way.
Most cults target YOUTH, because they are vulnerable and you can slip in new ideas, new thought amongst truth and they will follow. It's not healthy to target the young in masses for any religion, even with the best intentions! It can go wrong very quickly. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 120
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:14 am: |
|
The "power" or "energy" in a large group, especially 100,000 people concerns me because these 100,000 are already led into believing in this concept called "the fullness of time."
Good point!
Charismatic leaders think that if oyu get 100.000 believers to gather and to have an emotional experience it has something to do with "spirituality" and with God.
Get them to Super-Bowl or to a good Rock concert, and you also have an emotional outbreak.
Its amazing how charismatics still live in superstition. It took me many years to understand that my brain has the ability to produce all sort of chemicals to give me a high. in light of this, much which has been called "the anointing", things that i felt at conferences, while receiving prophesies, during worship, etcetc gets its explanation. speciually when i started to realize that beside of aaaaall this greeeeaaaaat experiences the world still is the same (at least my part of the world)... |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 224
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:18 am: |
|
The best way to stop trolling activity is to ignore the troll. Any engagement simply feeds the desire for attention and disruption.
I think the point of this thread underscores the inevitable danger of self-called and appointed men (or women) deluding people with a "gospel" totally disjointed from the historic and traditional Apostolic faith. The Apostle Paul said if any man preach a gospel other than his, let him be "anathema", and so these should be.
Until folks sound the alarm against this type of perversion of the Gospel, we'll just keep getting this nonsensical garbage. I fear the acceptance of this type of "gospel" by so many in this country is bringing us ever closer to the judgment of God. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 278
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:36 am: |
|
I posted some thoughts on the Cuckoo about WFJ in a follow up to the conversation there. I will past it here. The parallels are rather spooky.
Dust, the video trailers have led me to almost predict that a very strange thing is going to happen there...much like what I experienced at WFJ. It was after that particular event that I jokingly (sort of) told Miltie that I didn't know if I wanted to spend eternity with these folks. It really did disturb me, and there will be thousands of well meaning kids at the Call and they will also see humans clucking like chickens and barking like dogs. It will leave a lasting impression, and not a good one.
Your statement about trolls is a good one mcm78, it was my last engagement with him. I think almost all are seeing the same thing now. With the wanning days of factnet, I don't have the time nor the energy to put up with him any longer. |
osakadan
Junior Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.9.125
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:05 am: |
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Thank you Dust and Robert. So many good points that it is difficult to respond here. Specially though I love what you said about the 60's. Immorality was alive and well before then.
For instance, many people are oppressed by demons of addiction, or pornography. These people clearly need to be set free from that junk.
Have to agree what '78 said. If it is sin by the book we follow it is sin and a bit of denying the flesh might be more appropriate than blaming imaginary demons. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 279
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.4
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:27 am: |
|
Hey Odan, I sent you an email, it came back undelivered. Anyway, just wanted to mention the new nest. We need someone to keep 40 straight.
You can find the web address on the old cuckoo's nest. |
matt_hatter
Intermediate Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 280
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:47 pm: |
|
They are also marketing this event in such a way as if there are NO Christians in America, none from the 60's, as if the entire USA has fallen away from God and everything depends on them to save it.
This is a really good point, and adds to the 'we are more-special' than the rest of you. They don't even consider that there are solid believers in many non charismatic churches who privately pray for their family, friends, and nation.
It is again, the "here we come to save the day" mentality. Pride, stinkin' pride. It was the same thing we were told about WFJ, it was imperative that we all attend, the salvation of the nation depended on it. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 101
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 2:14 pm: |
|
Matt
What exactly was WFJ. How many people and can you give me some history on it.
I know some of my reaction is thinking about those conferences in California. I saw how good people could be swept into a crowd mentality. Many families really sacrificed financially to travel 3000 miles for what we could have heard in our own church. The ONLY DIFFERENCE....and influential leaders know this....there is a bigger power with a bigger crowd to get agreement. It's a phenomenon that has been called "group think." The power of the crowd itself will be pursuasive. This is psycho-social science 101. I have numerous degrees and education in this field and I've studied hypnotic control, so I have just about a pinhead of knowledge on this to know it's real.
Now, please, I understand, this could be a good thing if everyone was agreeing to the same things, such as Jesus is our Savior, but it's the "additional" rhetoric that I believe robs the power of the gospel, such as blaming the Beatles for our country's problems and the "fullness of time" phenomenon.
In and amidst twisted thinking will be large buckets of truth and appeal to the soul, such as the pro-life thing. But then the HOLY across the forehead alarms me. The pharisees would put ashes on their head and chalk themselves pale to publicly fast two days per week to show their "holiness." Probably at first, there was good intention, but we know what this act turned into.
It's always about the "heart" and what is inside, not what is written on the outside. And is "holiness" the message we are to give as a Christian. I think it is "WE are sinners, and we have a savior to turn to". The fruit of our salvation will be an inside holiness that will be expressed through our life and how we treat people. One thing I notice is that too often charismatics are too busy with church to break bread and have relationships, dinner parties, etc. just for fellowship that doesn't include a prayer meeting, outreach agenda, etc. or they are fasting for days, weeks, months, etc.
An outward sign of holiness doesn't equate to salvation, and sure must make the lost think we are just crazy and judgemental.
Again, I feel uneasy expressing myself here, because I don't want to sweep away all the good things these people are praying for and I pray too that all the good prayers will be heard, and that God will be felt for real. I do not dismiss any of the good. And I urge us to please in the next week pray as God leads you.
And I must say this also. A few years back I would have been at the Call, and urging others to attend. I would have been on that 40 day fast as I had joined in many corporate fasts for every nation. Those fasts and prayers were not fruitful. And most people did it simply to be part of man's team and belong.
There are only 3 times in the entire bible that talk about a 40-day fast. Over how many thousands of years. But I have already heard countless 40-day fasts called by the church. |
dust
Intermediate Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 102
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 2:32 pm: |
|
One more thing...in order to go to the event, you must register, even though it is free. I didn't register to go to a Billy Graham thing. Is this to build a data base? See how skeptical I am.
I know I'm a true believer and I know I have no skepticism towards God, and I know with no doubt Jesus Christ is God, is our Savior and I believe in the truth of the Word. So that I would be so skeptical has nothing to do with my faith, but more of my church experiences JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HERE for the most part.
But we are older, wiser and I think God does charge us as watchers of the sheep and these young sheep I believe are in our hearts for a reason at this hour.
Matt, maybe this is why you were resurrected. |
robert_unknown
Intermediate Member
Username: robert_unknown
Post Number: 121
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 80.109.163.152
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 2:42 pm: |
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dust, dont feel uncomfortable to QUESTION things. Jesus questioned things. specially religous things. and he himselve exposed himselve to critisism and questioning, always telling people that they will find outr whether his words are from God or not, if they really seek God.
You have a genuine and honest heart. Thats at least how i see it. And i guess that there are many people who would say the same about you.
so please dont feel uncomfortable to question this thing. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 226
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 2:45 pm: |
|
"Be ye wise as serpents and gentle as doves."
Dust, I think you're smack on regarding the database thing and registration. I guarantee it will be used for fundraising in the future. Also, there may be an element of control, a way to weed out some folks if need be.
The moment you start to elevate yourself as "better" than someone else, it is just at that moment you can be sure you are far from God! |
sameo
Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 3:53 pm: |
|
Robert to Dust:"You have a genuine and honest heart. Thats at least how i see it. And i guess that there are many people who would say the same about you."
I agree!! :-)
...and good points made by you all!(well summed up, Dust) it rings true to my ears. I've seen this 'wolf in sheeps clothing' before. Same ol' wolf, slightly different outfit. |
mcmstaff78
Intermediate Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 227
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 72.145.247.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 4:19 pm: |
|
Wasn't this essentially what MLTSes were about? Gather the "faithful", rah rah them, telling how special, how "Green Beret", how important they were to bringing about God's will in "this generation" and also doing that "spiritual warfare" thing? All the while fleecing them for what little money they had!
Seems like the same recipe, but for a whole bunch more people. As has been observed before, EN is MCM, but much more efficient. |
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