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pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 394
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 8:00 am: | 
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Is the woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 Eve ie. the same woman that is mentioned in Genesis 3:16?
I had always believed that the the woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 3:16 was Eve,who was Adam's wife, and I still believe that the woman mentioned in both verses is Eve.
Recently, I had a chat with two Jehovah's Witnesses. They said that the 'woman' mentioned in Genesis 3:16 is Eve but the woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 is not Eve. They said that the serpent is satan and satan is an spiritual being so the woman in Genesis 3:15 should also be spiritual. ie they said that the woman in Genesis 3:15 is not a human woman.
The Jehovah's Witnesses also said that the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15 are not Eve's descendants, from whom eventually Jesus Christ was born. The Jehovah's Witnesses also said that Eve is part of the seed of Satan because although Eve was created perfect she choose to sin against God so God rejected Eve.
The jehovah's Witnesses also asked the following questions?
Who are the serpent's seed?
Who are the woman's seed?
Who are Eve's seed?
They believe that Genesis 3:15 is the most important part of the entire Bible. (So they believe that if they can not even made understand that the 'woman' in genesis 3:15 is spiritual and that is not Eve they can not progress with their biblical studies/discussions with me)
I can see very clearly and that the woman in Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 3:16 is Eve but they can not see this.
Can anyone help? |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 6:45 pm: |
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Dear Pilgrim:
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT: (Part 1)
This is a question that has a short and long answer; however I will begin with the Long Answer below:
When seeking answers to Bible questions, it is good to keep in mind that in order to understand a passage that is not plain, or that is not explained within the context (the first approach) by reading the entire chapter, (sometimes the chapters before and after) you will more often than not, (especially when it comes to prophesy) that you will need to draw from other parts of the Bible to understand the meaning.
Case and Point: The serpent in Genesis 3:1-5, 14, 15 is not at all identified in the Genesis account. In fact, and in order to identify the “serpent” you would need to read the entire Bible, (unless you had someone to teach or show you) and end up at Revelation 12: 9, to clearly have the identity of the serpent which reads (depending upon the translation you use) “So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan…..” Now if this is true about the “serpent” could it also be true about the “woman?”
So in Genesis 3:14, Almighty God is actually cursing not an animal that cannot reason etc. but rather is cursing the one behind the animal (As we learn in Revelation above who that is) while using the attributes of the animal chosen by the devil to pronounce his curse. Bear in mind If God was cursing the snake then we know that particular snake died, but again we know from Revelation this passage in Genesis is referring to Satan the Devil.
If the above holds true, then using Revelation as the identifier, look at the next verse, 15, we should be able to discern that “you” and “your seed” is actually referring to Satan the Devil (as again it cannot be the dead snake) and therefore Satan’s seed would have to be his family or offspring. (If you need Biblical references for this I would be happy to list some to support this).
This is not an unreasonable conclusion to come to as the people who do what Satan does, and act like he does, can be considered his followers or family therefore his “Seed.” In effect we do that today when we say, things like, ‘Oh that person is a Benedict Arnold or related to Benedict Arnold’, which in reality we are really saying that the person is a “traitor.”
One thing is also clear, the two are against each other!
Returning to verse 15, one could conclude that the “woman” is Eve. However, Eve is dead and those of her immediate family are dead, and in the end, Eve, cannot really be viewed as in opposition to Satan, since as a human not only was she not a threat but in the end, she ended up doing what Satan wanted. Further, this passage is prophesy, and should have an application today for our time meaning this “woman” must be around and alive today as is Satan. So the “woman” must be something or someone else today.
Continued: |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 6:46 pm: |
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part 2
Again, turning to other parts of the Bible we can get an answer. If you go back to Revelation 12: and move on from verse 9, through to verses 12-17, you will note how the “dragon” (Satan) “persecutes the “woman” (Vs 13) and that he grew wrathful at the “woman” [Vs 17] (This cannot be Even she is dead) and goes off to wage war with the “remaining ones of “her seed” (the woman’s seed, offspring) and it tells you that this “seed” (offspring) are the ones who “observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.”
So we know what Revelation clearly states about the Woman’s seed. But now let’s look at verse 13 again, for this other point; that the “woman” gives birth to “male child” (is also given wings to fly away) Who is this? The male child is obviously Jesus, however, the questions is, where was Jesus before he came to the earth? He was with God in heaven. What or who else is in heaven; God, Jesus and the Holy angels. It is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion then, that if the woman’s seed is identified in Revelation as those who observe the commandments of God, that also, the woman must be God’s heavenly family from which Jesus came. What is the basis for this?
There are many scriptures in the Bible where God refers to the Nation of Israel as his wife and in Galatians 4:26, note that it calls, “Jerusalem above” (or heavenly Jerusalem) “our mother.” As a mother she is a “woman.
“Short answer” (If you don’t like this answer here below please take the time to read the above as it took more time to write it than the below even if you don’t agree).
Therefore, according to Revelation, the serpent is the devil, and the woman is God’s heavenly family (our mother) and their seeds are those who follow them.
End of Part 2 |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm: |
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Pilgrim:
You repeated your original posts, so I repeated the reply to both in case you only view one. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 406
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 5:11 am: |
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praetorian,
You said," But now let’s look at verse 13 again, for this other point; that the “woman” gives birth to “male child” (is also given wings to fly away) Who is this? The male child is obviously Jesus," I think that we should also look at Revelation 12: 5 to see who is this man child.
I had a chat with a Jehovah's witness yesterday and she asked me,"who is this man child". I answered, "Jesus Christ". She said that my answer was wrong and that the man child is not Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ came 2000 years ago and the book of revelation talks about the future and no the past.
She read revelation 1:1-3 and she said that the book of revelation only talks about things that must shortly come to pass i.e the future and not things that already happened. She concluded that if I believe that Jesus Christ is the man child I do not believe the bible because I am refusing to believe Revelation 1:1-3 that says clearly that the book of revelation is only a book of prophesy and not a book that describes things that already happened, like the birth of Jesus Christ.
I believe that you can have a book that talks about the future but also include things that happened in the past to help you to understand the history of redemption and to understand the prophesies but she does not believe this. So she feels that she is waisting her time and my time. So I do not know if the JW's will come again to my home.
I am happy to provide hospitality for them and to listen to their beliefs even if I do not agree, but I will not agree to believe in a interpretation that I can not clearly see that is right.
Praetorian, May I ask you a question? Are you are a Jehovah's Witness? When I started reading your post I thought that you were a JW's but now I have my doubts because your interpretation on the man child is the same as mine but different than the interpretation of the JW's that came to my home.
I am sorry that I repeated my original posts. It happened by mistake. I have not repeated my reply this time because I do think that the moderator hopefully will delete the other one at some point and hopefully this one will be left on factnet to continue the thread. I hope that no one else writes on the other one, otherwise I will also have to repeat my reply.
Blessings
Pilgrim |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 1:05 pm: |
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Dear Pilgrim: (Part 1)
Thank you for your reply however, I could not help but notice that you completely ignored the response to your original question, and switched the subject matter. Therefore I will first address your original query first and then turn my attention to this other query. My intent is to avoid getting into circular rhetoric, by not fully addressing one matter to agree or disagree before going to the next, that usually ends up nowhere, or in a circular vacuum.
I think it is noteworthy to mention that a study of any book of the bible that involves prophesy can be compared to the study of a language. In other words, one must first learn the basic language principals, consonants, vowels, grammar etc. and then learn to read, write and put these into meaningful sentences, thereby attaining to correct understanding and comprehension that allows one to go to the languages’ more complex matters like, poetry, prose and more complicated language syntax; otherwise one can easily miss the point the language intends to express.
Keeping to your query which had to do with the “woman” in Genesis 3:15 verses the “woman” mentioned in verse 16, as to whether or not they are the same; Did you read the reply? Did you agree and or get the sense of it? Or did you disagree and why?
It is not uncommon for a prophesy in the Bible, to begin with a subject person, and then leave the subject person meaning, use the same subject person-name to refer to something or someone else, to then go back to the original subject person, as with the “Woman” in Genesis above…Sounds confusing, huh?
Let’s use a straightforward prophesy that is usually not in controversy, found in the Bible Book of Ezekiel 28 regarding the “leader” or “King of Tyre”. Chapter 28 clearly begins or picks up with Ezekiel getting further instructions (Note: That Ezekiel is referred to as the “Son of Man” a title or phrase also applied directly to Jesus as well…this is another subject) to give to the “leader” (verse 2) of Tyre [so here we have the subject person] however in Verse 11, especially the latter part of 11, an obvious shift [leaving the subject person, using the same name to refer to a different subject person] which is now referring to Satan the devil. How do we know?; look carefully (or again) at the latter part of verse 11, and note now verse 13, “In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be….” The leader or King of Tyre was not alive or born at the time of Eden; Now note further in this same verse this particular Kings’ responsibility and now note verse 14, “You are the anointed Cherub…” clearly and obviously speaking of an “Angel” with a “defect”, through verse 15, and then in 16, as which point it reverts back to the original subject person, the King of Tyre then living at the time during Ezekiel’s life time.
Now, when I replied to your original query, as I am here, from work, (at my office) yesterday, I did so in haste, and was attempting to make the point that I trust is made further clear herein above. With regards to the Male Child, I should have taken the time to explain it better; and in the end, the point is; I was trying to provide you with something to consider regarding the woman and in my haste, and incorrectly threw into the mix subject matter that did not belong in the reply. Please accept my apology.
Continued.... |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 1:08 pm: |
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Part 2
Regarding the male child, there is no doubt that this male child does have something to do with and is connected to Jesus and again, I used a poor choice of words. The point you bring up (expressed to you by others) with reference to the first chapter of Revelation showing that the things written in Revelation are things that must shortly take place (meaning after Jesus birth and resurrection) cannot be ignored, and seems reasonable and obvious, which I should have taken into account.
In the end, I think you and they were dealing with word syntax that is not incompatible with your thoughts in the paragraph wherein you express what you, “I believe…” As to wasting time, and comments thereto, it should never be a waste of time to discuss bible teachings, so please don’t feel that way, and hospitality is always a good Christian quality to practice.
As to your personal “a question” I will tell you what I tell my children when they ask me personal questions with some variation; I do not lie, however, there are times I choose not to answer questions and this is one of them. Also one of my favorite lines is; what does this have to do with the price of bananas? What I mean by that is this; whether I am a lawyer, doctor, scholar, moron, Catholic, Jew, Witness, Muslim; what does that have to do with the time I took to respond to your query? If it makes sense, great, if it does not then great! I am not touting my knowledge and or a faith-discipline; I am sharing with you what the scriptures show in response to your query that I believe you wanted answers to.
Please keep to the subject matter at hand. I want no more honor than I do dishonor based on who and what I am or believe in. Experience has taught me to stick to the scriptures and allow the scriptures to do the talking (meaning interpret themselves for the most part) as saying I am “XYZ” person only causes people to leave the scriptures and make things personal and get off track.
No worries as to the second post, I just wanted to ensure you knew about it and received the reply.
Thank you and Blessings to you and yours as well,
Praetorian |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 410
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 5:01 am: |
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Praetorian:
Thank you for your kind answer, the only woman that I can see so far in Genesis 3:15-16 is Eve. I am still doing research on the identity of the woman in Revelation 12. I will keep your beliefs in my mind when I continue to do this research.
You are wellcome to add anything else that you know about the woman in Genesis 3 and the woman in Revelation 12.
I believe that the Woman in Genesis 3 is Eve but the Woman in Revelation 12 is God's people that in the Old Testament is Israel and in the New Testament is Jesus Christ's Church ie the Spiritual Israel. But I am not absolutely sure so I am doing more research on these parts of the bible.
I believe that the male child in Revelation 12:5 is Jesus Christ.
Blessings
Pilgrim |
praetorian
Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 51
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 4:51 pm: |
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Fair enough. |
praetorian
Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 52
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.244.39.179
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 9:07 pm: |
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Pilgrim:
What are your thoughts on the King of Tyre matter? |
oneway
Intermediate Member
Username: oneway
Post Number: 190
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 72.16.59.189
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 12:06 am: |
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pilgrim,
you stated: " the only woman that I can see so far in Genesis
3:15-16 is Eve."
I have been giving this a little thought. This is just my thought process and does not indicate finality of proof. But here's what I'm thinking. This enemity seems to suggest an ongoing thing that appears to indicate going on until all is finished in the end of time . So if this is Eve, and this enemity suggests an indefinate amount of time, what happens with this enemity between the serpent and the woman when Eve dies, if this is Eve? Something to ponder on... |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 414
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 3:49 am: |
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Oneway,
The JW's asked me the same question. I believe that after Eve died the enmity continue with her seed. The JW's were not very happy with my answer.
Any more thoughts? |
oneway
Intermediate Member
Username: oneway
Post Number: 191
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 72.16.59.189
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:04 am: |
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pilgrim,
"Oneway,
The JW's asked me the same question. I believe that after Eve died the enmity
continue with her seed.
The JW's were not very happy with my answer."
I hope this doesn't mean that I am thinking like a JW, LOL. I guess one thing we have to realize is, just because an organization such as the JWs err in some things, doesn't necessarrily mean they err in all things pertaining to scripture. And this goes for any organization or demonination or individual. What one has to descern is the core of one's beliefs. In the case of the JWs, believing that Christ is/was a mere created angel is not only err but destructive to the soul. I think this is why Jesus warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing. And while the JWs can appear meek on the outside, the wolf on the inside can clearly be seen by what they believe and teach. Getting back to the woman, the context seems to suggest woman as in a group of people, not as any one individual. But like I said, I have not come to this conclusion and I may never come to this conclusion nor am I trying to persuade anyone to come to this conclusion. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 415
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 6:00 pm: |
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Oneway,
I also believe that the JW's mix the truth with lies. You are right no everything that they believe is wrong some things are correct.
However, I can only see God, the serpent,the man (Adam) and the woman (Eve)In Genesis 3. I can not see any other women or anyone else in that chapter or in that context.
I can only see God talking to the serpent, the woman and the man and no one else.
I believe that if the woman in genesis 3:15 was symbolic and represented another woman that was not Eve; God would had showed this very clearly in the context or the definition of the woman in genesis 3:15 would be shown clearly in another part of the bible. |
sharon
Advanced Member
Username: sharon
Post Number: 707
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 198.164.4.48
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 9:30 am: |
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Well Pilgrim I have to say you make a lot of sense. I also believe that if there were others it would not be hidden. Just to much like trickery to me. The Lord spoke quite clearly of Eve.
And the enemity between woman and the snake... well who loves snakes more than woman... men and little boys are not afraid of snakes, but show a little girl a snake. Most woman holler kill it, kill it. Snakes should be afraid of woman, now is that not an enemity... Even in BC cartoons of years ago there was a woman with a club bashing snakes whenever she could find one....
Thanks for a very interesting read..
And you are all very pleasant in your answers, so nice to see, actual discussion on a discussion board. What a novel idea. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 431
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 7:14 pm: |
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Sharon,
Thank you for your message. You are so kind!
Blessings
Pilgrim |
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