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pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 393
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 7:56 am: | 
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Is the woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 Eve ie. the same woman that is mentioned in Genesis 3:16?
I had always believed that the the woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 3:16 was Eve,who was Adam's wife, and I still believe that the woman mentioned in both verses is Eve.
Recently, I had a chat with two Jehovah's Witnesses. They said that the 'woman' mentioned in Genesis 3:16 is Eve but the woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 is not Eve. They said that the serpent is satan and satan is an spiritual being so the woman in Genesis 3:15 should also be spiritual. ie they said that the woman in Genesis 3:15 is not a human woman.
The Jehovah's Witnesses also said that the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15 are not Eve's descendants, from whom eventually Jesus Christ was born. The Jehovah's Witnesses also said that Eve is part of the seed of Satan because although Eve was created perfect she choose to sin against God so God rejected Eve.
The jehovah's Witnesses also asked the following questions?
Who are the serpent's seed?
Who are the woman's seed?
Who are Eve's seed?
They believe that Genesis 3:15 is the most important part of the entire Bible. (So they believe that if they can not even made understand that the 'woman' in genesis 3:15 is spiritual and that is not Eve they can not progress with their biblical studies/discussions with me)
I can see very clearly and that the woman in Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 3:16 is Eve but they can not see this.
Can anyone help? |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 12:52 pm: |
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Dear Pilgrim:
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT: (Part 1)
This is a question that has a short and long answer; however I will begin with the Long Answer below:
When seeking answers to Bible questions, it is good to keep in mind that in order to understand a passage that is not plain, or that is not explained within the context (the first approach) by reading the entire chapter, (sometimes the chapters before and after) you will more often than not, (especially when it comes to prophesy) that you will need to draw from other parts of the Bible to understand the meaning.
Case and Point: The serpent in Genesis 3:1-5, 14, 15 is not at all identified in the Genesis account. In fact, and in order to identify the “serpent” you would need to read the entire Bible, (unless you had someone to teach or show you) and end up at Revelation 12: 9, to clearly have the identity of the serpent which reads (depending upon the translation you use) “So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan…..” Now if this is true about the “serpent” could it also be true about the “woman?”
So in Genesis 3:14, Almighty God is actually cursing not an animal that cannot reason etc. but rather is cursing the one behind the animal (As we learn in Revelation above who that is) while using the attributes of the animal chosen by the devil to pronounce his curse. Bear in mind If God was cursing the snake then we know that particular snake died, but again we know from Revelation this passage in Genesis is referring to Satan the Devil.
If the above holds true, then using Revelation as the identifier, look at the next verse, 15, we should be able to discern that “you” and “your seed” is actually referring to Satan the Devil (as again it cannot be the dead snake) and therefore Satan’s seed would have to be his family or offspring. (If you need Biblical references for this I would be happy to list some to support this).
This is not an unreasonable conclusion to come to as the people who do what Satan does, and act like he does, can be considered his followers or family therefore his “Seed.” In effect we do that today when we say, things like, ‘Oh that person is a Benedict Arnold or related to Benedict Arnold’, which in reality we are really saying that the person is a “traitor.”
One thing is also clear, the two are against each other!
Returning to verse 15, one could conclude that the “woman” is Eve. However, Eve is dead and those of her immediate family are dead, and in the end, Eve, cannot really be viewed as in opposition to Satan, since as a human not only was she not a threat but in the end, she ended up doing what Satan wanted. Further, this passage is prophesy, and should have an application today for our time meaning this “woman” must be around and alive today as is Satan. So the “woman” must be something or someone else today.
Continued: |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 12:53 pm: |
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part 2
Again, turning to other parts of the Bible we can get an answer. If you go back to Revelation 12: and move on from verse 9, through to verses 12-17, you will note how the “dragon” (Satan) “persecutes the “woman” (Vs 13) and that he grew wrathful at the “woman” [Vs 17] (This cannot be Even she is dead) and goes off to wage war with the “remaining ones of “her seed” (the woman’s seed, offspring) and it tells you that this “seed” (offspring) are the ones who “observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.”
So we know what Revelation clearly states about the Woman’s seed. But now let’s look at verse 13 again, for this other point; that the “woman” gives birth to “male child” (is also given wings to fly away) Who is this? The male child is obviously Jesus, however, the questions is, where was Jesus before he came to the earth? He was with God in heaven. What or who else is in heaven; God, Jesus and the Holy angels. It is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion then, that if the woman’s seed is identified in Revelation as those who observe the commandments of God, that also, the woman must be God’s heavenly family from which Jesus came. What is the basis for this?
There are many scriptures in the Bible where God refers to the Nation of Israel as his wife and in Galatians 4:26, note that it calls, “Jerusalem above” (or heavenly Jerusalem) “our mother.” As a mother she is a “woman.
“Short answer” (If you don’t like this answer here below please take the time to read the above as it took more time to write it than the below even if you don’t agree).
Therefore, according to Revelation, the serpent is the devil, and the woman is God’s heavenly family (our mother) and their seeds are those who follow them.
End of Part 2 |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 12:55 pm: |
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Pilgrim:
You repeated your original posts, so I repeated the reply to both in case you only view one. |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 55
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.117
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:13 pm: |
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who is the woman in genesis 3:15
praetorian,
are your interpretations the current rule?
or just interpretations?
so if christians and current jw members disagree with you, are they disfellowshipped? |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 198
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 2:49 pm: |
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Crawly:
Please let us reason on this! Take away the dogma and JW’s etc. out of the equation.
A simple reading of the Woman discussed in Genesis 3:15, clearly speaks of enmity between the Woman, and the Serpent-Satan and their respective seeds. It should be reasonable to conclude that the Woman could not be Eve as she died and Satan lives, and that someone or entity that is equally alive with Satan and has enough force or authority to crush Satan in the head must be what this account is referring too!
Keeping in mind that the account also discusses their “seed” meaning offspring of each; Now since Satan does not have (though probably did have along with the Demons during the time of Noah on earth) any “seed” as far as family or “offspring” one can also reasonably conclude that this refers to those, who think and act like him in both heaven and on earth. Likewise too with the Woman, it must also have offspring both in heaven and on earth and must be something or an entity that has the ability to bruise Satan and his seed (a blow to a snakes head is often referred to as a death blow) in the head; and apparently this Woman and can indeed do this! Therefore it must be something supernatural or angelic like, as Satan and his demons are fallen angels, thereby allowing for a blow or bruise to the head.
Now onto your other question, if someone does not agree with me, on this they simply don’t agree, and this happens everyday in our dealings in life. The same holds true with a JW. For instance if the person is a JW and decides they don’t believe as they once did, and choose to leave and move on with their life as a NON JW they simple do so and do not get disfellowshipped. However, if the person choosing to change his or her mind, begins to interfere at the meetings, choosing not to be a JW anymore but go the meetings etc., disrupting them and start a campaign within the congregation that promotes their new way of thinking, a committee is formed and then they try to resolve the matter, where in the end, the one doing so will probably end up disfellowshipped.
P |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 63
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.30.197
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 3:38 pm: |
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notice how praetorian misleads and says that if jws disagree with the interpretations of their leadership they may simply move on and not get disfellowshipped.
but, the truth is that any jws who question jw leadership, or their interpretations is disfellowshipped as a 'wicked person', while the jw leadership abuse the scriptures about shunning and mis-apply them to their own devious advantage.
then the jw leadership proceed to ruin their family situation, and social position among their jw friends.
the purpose of it all is to make sure current members don't find out the truth from the person who finally saw through their scam. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 5:02 pm: |
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Crawly:
How dare you say that of me, when it is you that is misleading people here, or at least the ones with your level of comprehension.
I provided you with an answer to your question and this is your response, completely ignoring the reply and change the subject. Why don’t you try and give me a reply to the answer I gave you above to your question about the woman on point! What are you afraid of?
JW’s do disfellowshipp (I don’t know how many more ways to express this) those who are JW’s who no longer want to be a JW that attempt to campaign about their beliefs in the congregation! They do not do this as a matter of practice to those who do so if they do not go around campaigning against them in their congregations, regardless of what you say to mislead people on this string. Yes disfellowshipping does cause a strain on family and other relationships no different than if a person were to be incarcerated for a crime that was committed in society.
OK, perhaps I am expressing this the wrong way so let me ask you a question; Do you believe that the Bible supports disfellowshipping by the Christian congregation? It is important to know this as whether or not they are false has nothing to do with my question.
Please respond!
P |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 67
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.45
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 8:23 pm: |
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oh come on now praetorian, you well know that the main tool of the wicked false prophet gov body of jws, is their "we will disfellowship you" threat, that they threaten the jw victims with, who disagree with their decisions.
now remember everyone...... the wicked false prophet gov body of jws makes sure new converts get rid of all their non-jws friends as they become jws........ later, when they are threatened with "disfellowshipping", it is a monumental problem for the jw victim because he only has "jw" friends......... so then they own his whole social structure. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 237
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:41 pm: |
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Crawly:
Since you are good at repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is!
One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’
Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board.
I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.”
P
P.S. That is why I can say you are a complete liar!!! Get your martini and know that your pants are on fire! |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 238
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:43 pm: |
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Crawly:
Since you are good at repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is!
One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’
Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board.
I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.”
P
P.S. That is why I can say you are a liar! Go get your martini and know that you have been exposed! |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 97
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.253.69
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 8:28 am: |
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once the jw leadership get you to rid yourself of all non jw friends, they basically have you by the tail, socially...... all of your friends are then jws....... later, when they threaten to disfellowship you if you don't go along with their wicked decisions, you realize the impact of it all.
many jws have committed suicide when they are disfellowshipped because they don't have a single friend left.
it is a cult tactic that jw leadership use to control members. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 261
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 6:56 pm: |
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Craw:
Duh! |
crawly
Intermediate Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 112
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.238
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 9:56 pm: |
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please beware all who are reading this.
jw leadership are experts at mind tricks, like preatorian.
but once they have gotten you to rid yourself of all of your friends, and talked you into being baptized as a jw, they have you by the tail, cause you don't want to be shunned by everyone you know......... so you tend to go along with whatever they tell you to do.
if you disagree with any of their doctrines, even the ridiculous ones and destructive ones, they will make an example out of you by attempting to ruin your life in front of all the congregation. |
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