| Author |
Message |
    
speakword2004
Senior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 3:08 am: | 
|
We did a book review of this novel over a year ago. Very chilling and a reminder of what EN could have become if its Super Apostles were allowed carte blanche. It looks like recent reforms have tried to nip this kind of power trip in the bud, but I am not convinced taking into consideration some of the theology behind it all:
http://www.kingdomlost.com/about.aspx
http://www.cultwatch.com/saseries.html
http://www.cultwatch.com/superapostles.html |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.211.21.140
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 7:39 am: |
|
I loved "The Attack of the Super Apostles"
otherwise known as this |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.211.21.140
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 7:53 am: |
|
click on speak's third link and scroll down until you see the 'super apostle detector'. if you've got a super apostle in your midst, might I recommend a pair of these. one size fits all. oh, how I wish I could go back in time and set up a booth at an MLTS or a staff meeting. |
speakword2004
Senior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 7:56 am: |
|
Supertramp - Child Of Vision Lyrics Lyrics by Supertramp
Well, who do you think you're foolin'?
You say you're havin' fun,
But you're busy going nowhere,
Just lying in the sun.
You tried to be a hero,
commit the perfect crime
but the dollar got you dancing
and you're running out of time.
You're messin' up the water
You're rolling in the wine
You're poisoning your body
You're poisoning your mind
You gave me coca-cola
You said it tasted good
You watch the television
It tell you that you should.
How can you live in this way?
You must have something to say.
There must be more to this life.
It's time we did something right.
Child of Vision, won't you listen?
Find yourself a new ambition.
I've heard it all before
You're saying nothing new
I thought I saw a rainbow
But I guess it wasn't true
You cannot make me listen
I cannot make you hear
You find your way to heaven,
I'll meet you when you're there.
How can you live in this way?
You must have something to say.
We have no reason to fight,
cos we both know that we're right.
Child of Vision, won't you listen?
Find yourself a new ambition. |
j2theperson
Advanced Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 707
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 10:59 am: |
|
quote:MDillon: I loved "The Attack of the Super Apostles"
otherwise known as this
Wow. They made Phil Bonasso way too good looking in that picture.  |
blueboy96
Intermediate Member
Username: blueboy96
Post Number: 134
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 69.132.38.219
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 1:28 pm: |
|
Just answered it the way I figured I would have had I still been at KPIC--King Ron rates off the scale, even with the few "no's" I clicked.
This ministry is based in New Zealand, which is home to its own "super-apostle"--Brian Tamaki of Destiny Church. His theology isn't too far off from EN's--he once proclaimed that his church would rule New Zealand by 2008. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 328
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 4:16 pm: |
|
I wasn't thrilled about the SuperApostle Detector. I clicked a few "Yes's" but mostly "No's" and it still said "SuperApostle Methods Detected." Hah.
The one thing the website doesn't really do is define what a SuperApostle is. That's disappointing... the website is grossly biased. |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.211.21.140
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 2:04 am: |
|
ahhh, kremsy baby, you miss the point. any indication of 'superapostleship' is going to register, get it? think hubris, puffing one self up, even looking at how one struts across the podium? c'mon now krems, please don't make me bring miltie back 'cause I will...
dilly |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 331
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 2:11 am: |
|
mdillon:
Hey dilly, why don't you stop being so silly, and actually get a grip on life?
Sorry, I just had to make the joke...
I've been hanging around... you know me... I lurk... we won't go there... I can't make such a negative confession.
Anyways... my point is that the detector is rigged. And that sux. I believe and have reason that the detector is therefore not reliable. My pastor is humble... he does not have hubris, nor puffs himself up... as to strutting across the podium... we aren't the frozen chosen. 
And why would you threaten to bring Miltie back? Dilly, don't be so silly. |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1273
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.211.21.140
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 8:06 am: |
|
you're right, kremsy, how silly of dilly, your pasta is da bomb...am...losing....grip.... |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2990
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Whoops sorry.
No I'm not. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2992
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 1:17 pm: |
|
Still laughing an hour later, dilly. da bomb. sheesh! |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 752
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Kremsy doesn't get it. Any one of those questions is a danger sign. That he answered yes to a "few" shows that his own "BS detector" isn't working very well. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 332
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 4:52 pm: |
|
mcmstaff: How insulting. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 753
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 3:43 pm: |
|
In what way? |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 335
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 5:03 pm: |
|
mcmstaff: You asked "In what way?" The fact you said I don't get it. The fact you imply any of the survey's questions are a danger sign, rather than a preponderance of them. And MOST of all, I was insulted by your statement, "The he (referring to me) answered yes to a "few" shows that his (referring to me) own "BS detector isn't working very well."
What you say is insulting because you infer by what you say that my pastor is BS-ing his own congregation. How arrogant! What if you're wrong, mcmstaff? What if God hears you --- and holds you accountable for what you say??? Do you really want to be held accountable for criticizing another godly leader??? |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3008
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 5:23 pm: |
|
Krems, I find it so sad that from day one you have given the impression that you would fall on a sword for Pastor Ricky. (whatever)
Better question...what if you are wrong? It is the height of arrogance that you become insulted, offended, and stick your nose in the air when folks who have 'been there-done that' try to tell you something and YOU DON'T LISTEN!!!
You are a young man in such need of some guidance from mature men in God, and you just won't listen. I find the arrogance in your post so exasperating, because you sound just like some of us did 30 years ago; our problem was we didn't have an abundance of people telling us run from this dangerous religious nonsense.
You, on the other hand, have had folks beg, plead, warn and even beat you over the head to listen, but you are like a deaf Dalmation. Lord have mercy on this boy. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3009
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 5:32 pm: |
|
Do you really want to be held accountable for criticizing another godly leader???
Oh...and you just proved that the detector works. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 337
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 6:31 pm: |
|
Matt:
I never said that. There are instances where if Pastor Rickey fell (into sin like Ted Haggard, for instance) --- I would NOT fall on a sword for him, either.
Howevever, when it comes to doctrinal issues and the like... that's a whole different thing, and yes, I do believe in defending one's pastor... it is called being an "armor bearer," and that is a very holy thing unto the Lord.
What if I am wrong? Well, first of all, yes, I could be wrong. However, I do not claim to have all my doctrines in line. I still have Q's in some areas about a few issues here and there. I do not claim to "have it all together," and have "arrived," which would be pride on my part.
Finally, as to your last point: I believe it is a sign of humility to be willing to NOT criticize other leaders, esp. if you are one yourself. Would you want others to criticize you??? |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 401
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.85.7.132
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 7:05 pm: |
|
Howdy Boys!  LOL In the chaos of LA traffic or trying to remember what was packed in which box (either or) especially the one with my brain...sigh. I have SO missed the predictability of these family discussions! JBK's determined zeal standing on his present understanding--bouncing headlong as usual--into the hard-learned life's wisdom of you somewhat more "aged" fella's who just keep on telling it as it was and is...LOL. I do miss Miltie though...
Lest my comments have offended...Jonathan...(well, the "aged" group has already been offended by experts and survived to tell the tales...) You do at least keep coming back and reading their comments even if you disagree with the irreverence shown or the warnings given... I hope you know that if these men did not care for you that they'd have shrugged their shoulders, and been giving you just nice polite responses a long time ago...
But, Jonathan... I do believe we all see and appreciate your heart. It yearns to follow the Lord in Truth...so hopefully, and again possibly without offending you (sigh, probably not, so let me apologize now if my words are clumsy.)
Perhaps, you might just consider how many of your comments speak to being in fear of the Lord's wrath over some transgression (possibly out of concern for other's welfare)...especially that of "talking against the Lord's anointed"... almost as if that was "The Sin" or the "Lie" told against the Holy Spirit by Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira...it is not.
Your Pastor, "Super Apostles" "Apostles" (if those functions are still applicable...are only functions...not "Ranks"). So, they are only MEN... and may merit respect but not reverence which is due only to the Lord. They are my Brothers in Christ...just as YOU ARE. And You merit respect in turn from them as well. You are their equal--not their servant or their "disciple". At times you might be their student in certain subjects (the wisdom of "elders" in age by "youth" as discussed in Proverbs), but there might be times they need to learn from you. Jesus called us all HIS FRIENDS..HIS Disciples. We are each precious to Him...the Pastor no more "valuable" than the Janitor who cleans the bathrooms...to the Glory of the Lord. Although, I suppose that's not exactly in keeping with a 5-fold doctrine ministry teaching...
***I just refreshed and saw your comment about being an "armor bearer". Hmmm, is that concept in the New Testament or pulled from supportive analogies in the OT? Just asking, not disagreeing. How are you suppose to fight your own battles, wearing your own armor which involves both hands (Shield & Sword) if you are carrying his??? And what is he doing going around without his armor? Honestly, I do not know these teachings. But, I'm thinking I see a problem here...an Armor Bearer is a servant...sigh. This concerns me...
I'm either "handicapped" or "blessed" to have studied the Scriptures in a vacuum without these "doctrines" or "labels"...We just picked up say the Book of Acts and studied it verse by verse for a year or so, then went on to another Book. We rarely had an actual "Lesson Book".
I'm going with BLESSED: My Dad selected the Book of Job to teach our teenage Wednesday night class...oh, that was just LOVELY for a 14 year old! I think we finished by the time I was 16. I'm not sure I'm joking Funny how beneficial I've found that study of Job since I turned 29...LOL 
Oops, went "long" again! |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3011
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 7:09 pm: |
|
Krems, like Rhett said to Scarlett..."I wish I could take my hands and drive that Ashley Wilkes out of your head!" Finally he said, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."
Please don't get to a point where people say that to you. You could learn so much from folks with a different perspective, but alas, some of us may get to the point of saying that it is a waste of time. Don't let it get there; open your eyes. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 677
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 7:14 pm: |
|
I believe it is a sign of humility to be willing to NOT criticize other leaders, esp. if you are one yourself. Would you want others to criticize you???
While it might be difficult to hear, yes, I would want to be made aware of valid criticism. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3012
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 7:20 pm: |
|
I'm either "handicapped" or "blessed" to have studied the Scriptures in a vacuum without these "doctrines" or "labels"...
Ummmm....the answer here would be "blessed". Krems listen to her about armor bearer, I was about to post the same thought (with not nearly the grace of my dear friend) this is some silly teaching that you have swallowed. Realize first that you are a servant to no one but Christ, and in that revelation, you then become a servant to all, regardless of their station in life. There is no partiality with God. Hmmm...I read that somewhere. It would be wise for your pastor and the rest of the charismatic-bandy-roosters to meditate on it too. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1897
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.101
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:17 pm: |
|
Krem, if a person is spiritually mature, the person will take any criticism he can get. Thats what makes us grow up. Its how we react toward that criticism that show whether we are immature or not.
for example, the Phillipine pastors VCF have been spreading rumors , even to the point of having a leadership meeting that my husband is leaving me. And that we are getting a divorce. Because I have become bitter and a lunatic.
Now the story even goes further that Steve Murrell even met my husband and spoke to him about me.
Quite frankly, when I heard that story, I was not even offended, I was laughing out loud. The story has become so ridiculous. I told my friends , just let them be, let them spread the story because it will backfire against them one day. If the Lord is willing.
Just think how Christ reacted. He left those Pharasees alone. leave them be.
I will not be anybodys armor bearer, but I will be a brother's keeper. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1898
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.101
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:20 pm: |
|
Sadly the armor bearer that you are talking about has already happened here in Maranatha to a lot of women, we call them HANDMAIDEN. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3015
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:48 pm: |
|
Krems, you sound more like you are trying to convince yourself that Pastor Rickey is worth defending than actually defending him. You have told us the size of your church, relatively small, now search the deepest part of your mind, soul, or whatever you want to call it. Does his lifestyle, cars, home, etc really warrant the job?
I sense that you have yet to find a job and may be ignorant to work and appropriate remuneration. I can tell you as one who has worked since I was 14, that his small church responsibility does not jive with his high lifestyle. It is a reproach to the gospel, and in my opinion, his type turns people away from Christ. I ain't Pastor's Rickey's armor bearer, obviously. |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 184
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 76.18.138.58
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:30 am: |
|
Wildwood, wonderful post. Krems my good friend, you really should read her post several times very slow and really think about the things she is saying.
To everyone one else, how would you have reacted when you were where Krems is now and someone tried to talk sense into you? Sadly, some lessons are only learned by experience, time and maturity. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 338
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:51 am: |
|
Wow, lots to respond to...
Wildwood, since you're a lady, and you wrote in first, I'll begin with you...
I realize here that those who respond to me are well-intentioned. Anyone who has observed these posts know that I have "bowed out" for some time, and not come in for a while. In fact, I was not planning on responding to this thread, until there was a post about the "SuperApostle Detector," which I decided to try and see what would happen. Honestly, I thought maybe it would NOT be a rigged deal, and because I only marked a few YES's, then my pastor would not be identified as a SuperApostle, or whatever. Unfortunately, I was wrong, the detector IS rigged to detect SuperApostle if you probably just say ONE "yes." That's wrong and biased, and I'd even say the creator of the detector is deceived. Because I strongly DO believe that God still has given His Church apostles today, and my pastor is one of them. That does not make him a so-called "SuperApostle," but I believe there is a place for apostles in Christ's body, period.
One thing that I have learned from my pastor, Wildwood, is that we need to treat what God sees as holy as holy. We cannot judge the calls of God on someone else's life, even though we might not be called likewise. One very recent example was last Wednesday night, when my pastor discussed martyrdom. He won't touch that, though, because God sees martyrdom as a very holy thing. Just like God sees a non-martyr's anointing as a very holy thing. The point is we cannot judge one another like that... and there are plenty of New Testament verses that say so, without going to the Old Testament and saying, "Touch not mine anointed."
Wildwood, there IS a difference between five-fold ministry and everyone else. But it is only ONE distinction, ONE difference. And that is the purpose of someone in five-fold ministry is to help equip, mature, and develop everyone else (including OTHERS in five-fold ministry) to do the work of the ministry to which they have been called. But you're right, otherwise there is equality.
As regards to the "armor bearer" concept, Wildwood, Jesus had His close disciples... the 3: Peter, James, and John the Beloved. They were VERY close to Him, and probably could have been considered His "armor bearers," although the New Testament does not use the term to describe them. However, I believe I could point to sufficient NT verses that explain the "armor bearer" concept, but do not label it as such.
You're right that an "armor bearer" is a servant. We're also suppose to serve in the local church, unless we are in a place where we need to be ministered to (remember my comments directed towards J2) --- the ministry of helps is for everyone, and I actually have a broader definition of that than many do. But look at Gal. 6:2, which deals with bearing other's burdens. On the other hand, another Scripture verse tells us that each man is to bear his OWN load. How do these mesh? That's what it means to be an armor bearer... more later if you're interested, Wildwood.
I'll respond to the rest of you in the next post. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 339
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:04 am: |
|
Ok, now I'll respond to the rest of you, in turn...
Matt: I've never read or seen the movie "Gone with the Wind," so I'm not sure how to respond to that comment.
Osakadan: Maybe I wasn't clear when I used the word "criticize." By using that word, I meant to "judge" someone else, in a "critical" way. There is such a thing as a "critical spirit." It goes WAY BEYOND "constructive criticism," which really IS NOT "criticism" at all. Rather, "constructive criticism," as we all probably agree, EDIFIES. But mere "criticism," when offered in a judgmental way, TEARS DOWN. That is what I am speaking to, here. We can't do that to other Christian leaders. I may disagree with some other pastor in my city, but how dare I speak against what God may or may not have called him to do. This is what I'm talking about. Look at the martyr example I gave Wildwood. As my pastor said on Wed. night, "How is God revealing Himself to you?" Every man needs to answer that question for himself or herself, and then respond accordingly. Otherwise we compare ourselves, and beging to criticize and judge one another, which the Bible tells us not to do.
Matt: I disagree with you on this. Without discussing the concept of "armor bearer," God has ordained certain "avenues" for His people to serve Him. Primarily, these "avenues" of service are established through the local church, by serving the congregation (and its pastor/pastoral staff). If you are serving, then you are doing several things. One is you fulfilling what God has called you to do, in serving Christ, by serving His people. Another is that you are serving the church and the pastor by advancing whatever God has given the church and its pastor for its VISION. Like I said above, the "ministry of helps" is for everybody... regardless of whether you're an usher, greeter, nursery worker, or choir member. What all have in common is they help advance the vision of the local body, and serve Christ by serving His people in the church. We're all called to do that, and that's basically what being an "armor bearer" is all about in the New Testament. Make sense?
Ginger: I halfway agree with you. You are correct to say that how we respond to "criticism" does show how mature (or immature) we may be. However, criticism itself does not bring about spiritual maturity, or become more Christ-like, which is the biblical definition of spiritual maturity.
I'll respond to Matt and forword in the next post. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 340
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:10 am: |
|
Finally...
Matt: I wouldn't share with everyone here what Pastor Rickey says in his sermons if I didn't believe him, or didn't agree with him. I don't need to be persuaded that I should defend Pastor Rickey and the vision for our church... that's part of what every member of our church is called to do... rather than attack we should defend in love.
Attack... that's another word that I should have used instead of "criticize." When I originally said "criticize," what I should have said was "judged" or "attacked." That is what I was trying to get across to everybody... I should have asked mcmstaff, "Do you really want to be held accountable for ATTACKING another leader?" and likewise when I said "criticize" use the word "attack" or "judge." That's really the spirit of what I tried to convey. Sorry y'all.
Matt, I am not going to respond to your second paragraph, or the rest of your comments.
Forword: I think I've justly responded to Wildwood's post. But I am concerned with what you wrote in your second paragraph? Do you mean to imply that I am immature somehow in the faith? Aren't we all??? |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 186
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 76.18.138.58
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 2:50 am: |
|
Krems: Do you mean to imply that I am immature somehow in the faith? Aren't we all???
FW: Touche'
Good point actually. It was not my intent to imply you were spiritually immature. But, many of those you are dialoging with have been where you are and I was asking them to remember what it was like when they were at that place. From their perspective of being older (more mature), you seem immature.
This is not an insult. Maturity does come wtih (among other things) age and experience and you have not lived long enough and been through the experiences to be seen as mature in this forum. However, you have shown a good heart and commitment.
I found this commentary in an online dictionary...
Most of us would prefer to mature rather than simply age. Mature implies gaining wisdom, experience, or sophistication as well as adulthood. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 342
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:01 am: |
|
Hello Forword,
Perhaps you are correct. I was just listening the other night to a sermon series (I won't say by who, it might surprise people here) on spiritual maturity. It wasn't my pastor, though, but another pastor (from Branson).
Anyways, he said that spiritual maturity is measured by Christ-likeness. That's the point with that. I know that I have my areas to grow, as we all do. I really try to "listen" to what the others say here. I know I haven't lived long enough and had sufficient experience to compare with many (if not most) of those who post here. But the pastor I recently listened to said that maturity is not necessarily a function of one's age. In other words, you can be 50 or 60 years old, and still be a spiritual infant. Likewise, you can be 30 or even younger and be considerably more mature.
But Forword, I do agree that maturity certainly implies gaining wisdom, experience, and sophistication, as well as adulthood. Amen? |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 678
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:38 am: |
|
ministry of helps
mmmmm....brings back MCM memories. Translation from those days. Someone who is kindhearted or intimidated or naive enough, to continually take crap from someone of authority in MCM. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3017
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 9:49 am: |
|
my pastor would not
I have learned from my pastor
when my pastor discussed
As my pastor said on Wed
you are serving the church and the pastor
what Pastor Rickey says in his sermons
I should defend Pastor Rickey
Jonathan, this sounds so much like someone under the influence of a super-apostle. Find another believer in here who's posts are laden with this armor-bearing nonsense.
Forward, yes, we were like him back in the day, but because he doesn't listen right now is no reason for me not to try. I had friends post MCM, (my latest blog speaks of one) either by word or deed who helped readjust my thinking. I realize my approach with Krems is very direct, but he seems like the type to need it.
Krems, you cannot go through life without watching Gone With the Wind. Educate yourself beyond the small world of Charisma. Fiddle dee dee. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3019
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:15 am: |
|
Sadly, some lessons are only learned by experience, time and maturity.
BTW, Forward, I know deep down you are right here...and my prayer for Krems is that he does come into his own...and that "my pastor" will be replaced with "my Jesus" one day.
God bless you Kremsy, keep seeking the Lord; I am doing the same...
Matt |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 187
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 76.18.138.58
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:37 am: |
|
Matt, I understand your need to try and I applaud it...I was just reminding all to do so with the compassion of someone who has walked in his shoes, as most of us have to one degree or another. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 754
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:24 pm: |
|
Jonathan, you don't get it. First of all, I didn't say a word about your "pastor". That you have implied some of those responses are applicable to him are your testimony, not mine. The fact that you cannot recognize them as "BS", whether sincerely shoveled out or not, is what I was referring to.
Now, I know that I will be held accountable and pray for God's mercy every day because of it. I taught and practiced some of this BS and I pray God forgive me for it. I wish I could go back and pluck those damnable teachings out of the air before they reached anyone's ears. Unfortunately I cannot, but I will testify to their damnable quality. People may be sincere, but it doesn't mean they are following the Truth.
There are none so blind, as those who would not see! |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 755
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:31 pm: |
|
The whole "armour bearer" stuff (I would use a different phrase, but don't want to be overtly offensive or insulting) stems from Terry Nance's book God's Armour-Bearer. It is little more than having a practice and seeking justification for it in the allegorical use of the scriptures.
I was involved in WoF when the book first came out and the whole concept was being touted. It's simply a recipe for creating "yes men" who will always agree with the "super pastor". As soon as someone in the WoF movement comes out with a book on servant-leadership I'll start to listen (maybe). |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1899
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.101
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:39 pm: |
|
Krem,
Armor bearers are people who serve their masters. Take for an instance Saul, when Saul died, the armor bearer decided to kill himself too. We are not called to be armor bearers. We are called to be EQUAL to our brothers and sisters in Christ. The bible said, God has NO RESPECTOR of person. But we can serve each other, thats what we are called to do. We lift up each other and encourage one another, that is by no means an armor bearer. The bible do talk also about the ministry of helps. It does not mean those are armor bearer. We are not allowed to call anybody master other than Jesus alone. If you want to serve your pastor, because of your love for your pastor thats fine. But I would not be a person whom a lot of kids in Maranatha/EN days would say that they will take a bullet for their disciplers.
There would always be people criticizing. I grew up in a home where thats a norm. Is it wrong ? Sometimes yes. But we take that opportunity to grow up in Christ. We don't focus on the person who criticizes, we focus on what God can do with that criticism. Which is GROW US UP. We stop getting offended by those who criticizes. The bible says we die daily. Its one day at a time.
We focus on the the Major things of what God wants in life not on the Minor things in life. Focusing on people who criticizes is a minor things in life. We don't stop people from criticizing. We take that as an opportunity in Christ. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 343
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:58 pm: |
|
Once again, a lot to respond to...
Osakadan: There are a lot of churches, besides MCM/EveryNation, which believes in the concept of "ministry of helps." After all, the term is found in the Bible in 1 Cor. 12.
Matt: How do you define a "super-apostle" - ???
mcmstaff: No, you never said anything about "my pastor." But its NOT what you actually said, but what you INFERRED. You endorse the Super-Apostle Detector... and it is what the Detector says about my pastor (because I answered it based on my experience with my pastor), that I respond here today. The fact that you believe that I should believe what my pastor teaches is BS is very sad and unfortunate. Well, its not BS. If it were BS, I'd go to a different church. But I believe, after having examined what my pastor says under the Word of God, is in accord with the Word of God. Certainly I do not agree with every jot and tittle he says, but the vast majority (probably 95%) of what my pastor teaches is true... its not BS, and its insulting to him and Him for you to characterize it as such. Oh, one other thing: being an armor bearer and a servant leader are the same thing.
Ginger: I don't think I would characterize the role of the "armor bearer" like that. Although everyone in my church should desire to serve as one, technically, my pastor only has two "official" armor bearers. One is a watchman who looks out for him spiritually, and the other, the "junior armor bearer," takes care of his Bible and papers after the service is over.
Also, Ginger, I do not believe serving in our churches includes falling on one's sword FOR a fallen leader. For instance, I don't see that happening in Ted Haggard's former church in Colorado. This is because its not really the pastor whom the armor bearer serves, but really the church and the vision God's given it.
You're right to say our only Master should be Jesus. But because we love the Lord Jesus, we should love the gift He has given in our pastors, and serve our church and our pasotr because of that love. You can call that an "armor bearer" or NOT --- it doesn't matter --- God is after the motivation of the heart, regardless.
Also, I'm not sure I would ever take a bullet for my pastor. To be honest, I also think there is such a thing as wisdom. And you're right about what you say concerning criticism, Ginger. And yes, we need to learn how to respond properly to crticism, and that DOES grow us up when we do.
Lastly, I never was focusing on people who criticize, I was focusing instead on the concept itself. And we should stop people from doing so, because it is hurtful to all when it is wrong, as you admit it sometimes is. Make sense? |
freedom43
Intermediate Member
Username: freedom43
Post Number: 427
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 129.33.119.12
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:47 pm: |
|
Secret advice to krems -- if your pastor says something you think is true and Biblical, you don't always have to attribute him as your source. It's either true/truth or it's not. If it's true/Biblical, why use a secondary source (your pastor)?
When you repeatedly quote him and say "my pastor" this and my pastor that, it makes it sound like you are following a person/personality ahead of Jesus. I know it is probably not the case, but it makes it sound like you are idolizing him. That strikes a raw nerve for many of us because God knows MCM/MSI/EN is personality driven.
For example, above you state: "One thing that I have learned from my pastor, Wildwood, is that we need to treat what God sees as holy as holy." If that is true, why not find the Bible verse and quote a primary source rather than your pastor? Or just say flat out: "I believe we need to treat what God sees as holy, holy." If you do that, it will sound more like you are thinking for yourself and not being controlled by or obsessed with what your pastor says and does. Stating that it came from your pastor does not necessarily make it more credible to your readers here. Just some thoughts/observations. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 759
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:53 pm: |
|
Jonathan, do you understand the nature of circular reasoning? You wrote:
quote:Well, its not BS. If it were BS, I'd go to a different church.
Well, no, you don't believe it's BS, but that doesn't mean it isn't. You, honestly, don't have the experience to discern the BS, which is what I was commenting on. I'll gladly accept the implicit defense of your pastor's sincerity, but that has nothing to do with what is BS or not.
As for "amour-bearer" = "servant leadership" you apparently don't understand to what the latter phrase refers. An "armour-bearer" is a servant, alright, but is not a "leader" in the sense that I mean by "servant leadership". I'm speaking of things like Luke 22:23-26; John 13:4 ff; Mark 10:42-45; 1 Peter 5:2 & 3. That you'll turn around and equate what WoF pastor's do with these verses only demonstrates how easy it is to twist words and say up is down and black is white. Is it no wonder that our Lord wonders if there will be any [true] faith when He returns? As the Apostle Paul writes "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron," (1Ti 4:1-2)
(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on March 02, 2007) |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 345
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 5:41 pm: |
|
Freedom43: I always use attribution. As a matter of personal taste and style, I like to give people credit to whom credit is due.
But I will take your 3rd paragraph as sound advice, and into consideration, Freedom.
mcmstaff: I guess you need to defend your position that what I believe is BS, by defining "BS." To me, "cessationism" is BS, and not according to the Scriptures, but to you, believing that apostles and prophets exist today is also "BS." Now that can't be right --- that is not demonstrating the Christian love that Christ expects of us as His children, right?
As for servant leaders, I know of a church in Orlando, where they identify all their ushers and greeters as "servant leaders." In my church, we define leadership as anyone who has influence in any ministry, and is serving in that capacity. So, for example, I'm a member of the praise team, but not the dept. head. But I am still considered a "leader" because I serve and have influence. The same for every usher, greeter, nursery worker, etc. We are all, in effect, "servant leaders," because we serve, and we lead. Now not all of us are "armor bearers," but we should all aspire to be one.
I think by using the word "leadership," you imply the concept of "eldership," which is found in the four passages you referred to above. Well, we believe that all elders are leaders, but you can be a leader, and NOT be an elder. Clearly there are higher qualifications for eldership, but you can serve and be a leader by being a praise team member or an usher, etc. etc. etc.
I would say that an "armor bearer," then would be a non-elder servant leader. Does that help any? |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 762
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 5:50 pm: |
|
Calling a skunk a "cat" doesn't make it one. When the "pastors", "elders", "apostles", etc., of the WoF churches act like Jesus, washing the disciples feet, serving rather than being served, then you'll see some "servant leadership". In the meantime, all you're doing is playing semantical games. I gave you scripture. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 347
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 5:52 pm: |
|
mcmstaff: So you cannot identify someone who is leading by influence, example, and servanthood a true leader by the biblical definition?
And in order to be a leader, you must be an elder?
Is that what you're saying? |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 764
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 6:03 pm: |
|
Jonathan, are the ushers in your Church the pastors, the "super apostles"? Go back and read my original post, please. Think, this whole thread is in the context of the "super apostle". Well, you don't get any more "super" than Jesus and the 12 (well, unless you're some of these WoF types). And Jesus washed their feet and told them to do likewise. He said if you wanted to be "great" in the Kingdom, you had to become least of all. Now, all these "super apostles", pastors, teachers, prophets, seers, et al, who have their "amour bearers" in what way are they being the "servant of all"? This has been discussed to death around here, the examples of the abuse of power and position and "lording it over" others. The whole "amour bearer" hooey is just one more example of it. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 681
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.1.219
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 6:24 pm: |
|
There are a lot of churches, besides MCM/EveryNation, which believes in the concept of "ministry of helps." After all, the term is found in the Bible in 1 Cor. 12.
I don't doubt it. And I am sure it is valid ministry in the right church. I was just commenting on my own MCM experiences. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.101
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 7:12 pm: |
|
krem you said - junior armor bearer," takes care of his Bible and papers after the service is over.
We do also have that, we call her his secretary. LOL ! and the watchman , we call them the board of directors. Or some of his pastors who watch him.
Krem, I think this "armor bearer" issue has simply just become religious LOL ! It is well known among charismatic world to "create" a new term like this.
But quite frankly, in spiritual sense, nobody should be an armor bearer of anyone else. Ephesians. - God gave us the full armor of God. How can one carry/wear their own armor when they also carrying someone else armor ?
God have designed every single one of us to carry/wear our own. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 349
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 9:39 pm: |
|
mcmstaff: No, but the ushers in my church ARE considered leaders, and the head usher is called a DEACON.
You're the one who said that I was off on the "armor bearer" concept and some other issues, which is why I continue to discuss it in this thread.
You're right that there is no more "super" than Jesus and the original 12. Even I as a WOF person agree with that. However, When Jesus said "least" I think he means most humble, etc. You will find it interesting to know that while my pastor has two "armor bearers," his pastor doesn't have any, at least none to my knowledge. So, its not a necessary thing, and the role of each "armor bearer" differs depending on the relationship between the pastor and his armor bearer(s).
You did ask a pertinent question... about how a pastor in a church such as mine can be "servant of all." That's a great question. I think the answer is found in the fact that his ministry is to everyone... by equipping the saints for the work of the minister, he is a servant to all, and he models that with his life. I have never in my life met more hospitable people than my pastor and his wife.
Osakadan: Thank you, that's fine.
Ginger: My friend Kindt (that's the junior armor bearer) is not my pastor's secretary. My pastor does have a secretary, and she often has other responsibilities after the service. But basically Kindt's job is to collect whatever my pastor leaves on the pulpit, return the lapel mic to the sound people, put the Bible and papers in pastor's office, etc.
Some of the watchmen are on our church board, but it is not mutually exclusive. However, the concept is somewhat the same. But the term "armor bearer," really isn't a new term. In fact, it long pre-dates modern Charismatic Christianity... rather, think back to the knights who served in the Catholic Church. Back in that day, there were real "armor bearers."
You're right, God did give eveyrone the full armor of God. But spiritually speaking, there really can be an "armor bearer" type role for those who either (1) carry a pastor's Bible for him and/or (2) guard the anointing on the pastor's life. Those are the basic functions and roles of a NT "armor bearer."
There is also the concept in Gal. 6:2 of bearing one another's burdens, while we each need to carry our own load. But there is a distinction between a "burden" and a "load." The latter, a "load," is basically the daily issues of life. Yes, we need to carry those on our own. However, many people are burdened, either in a positive way, or a negative way. In a negative way, there are those who we say are "heavy-burdened," who need to have their spirits lifted. But there are also those who carry the burden of God (i.e. the vision of a congregation) and just like David needed Aaron, pastors should not carry the vision that God has given them for their church alone --- they need others to help lift their arms, so to speak, and that is the function of a real servant and "armor bearer." Make sense? |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3024
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:05 pm: |
|
while my pastor has two "armor bearers,"
This is so disturbing...and on top of it, to be caught once again by this re-tread thread, Lord help us.
I going to zip away, for soon we will be right back where we were last summer. As forward so aptly stated above, Sadly, some lessons are only learned by experience, time and maturity.
Re-runs are best on TV Land, I recommend Andy Griffith over the Misadventures of Pastor Ricky and His Lackeys anyday. |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 402
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.85.7.132
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 4:34 am: |
|
Hi All! As always, great discussion...
Words have consequences. Labels, "name us" --so it may be important to consider the impact of being called an "Armor Bearer" or "Secretary." In different Churches, these "roles" imply different levels of power or access to power...not just the traditionally understood meanings.
So, JBK, that's why I am concerned the term Armor Bearer places you in a servant role to your Pastor, when I see you as a bright mind equal to your Pastor's intellect, although certainly he's due respect. Which I'm sure you give, but does he return that respect as appropriate to you?
"Roles" often name us, giving us an identity" that sticks a long time...whether it "should be so" or not. And the name "Armor Bearer" gives the "Role" of Servant/Emmployee just as "Secretary" does...duties answerable to a specific "Captain" or "Boss-Man". If you have a doctrinal conflict it would make for an extremely unbalanced discussion to have with your "boss". He could enforce being "right" by virtue of "power" not necessarily Sound Doctrine...
Open discussions & questions & debates on the Bible seem easier to have in a Church that has roles that are shared functions of mutual respect: "Deacons" who function as a Servant/Leaders responsible to the Elders for implementing & completing necessary Church functions (stacking chairs, serving communion, to putting on the sound system). "Elders" who also function as Servant/Leaders but are directly accountable to the Lord for leading their congregation in wisdom and in Christ's footsteps. The Pastor's role is supported by the Deacons but subordinate to the Elders and the Pastor should be accountable to the Elders for the welfare of the sheep and submitted to their wisdom and their vision the Lord has laid on their hearts for their congregation. Everyone does their own driving, laundry, and grocery shopping...unless sick with the flu
JBK--I really liked what you said here
quote:
Jesus had His close disciples... the 3: Peter, James, and John the Beloved. They were VERY close to Him, and probably could have been considered His "armor bearers," although the New Testament does not use the term to describe them.
You're right Jonathan...Jesus did not call them Armor Bearers...he called them Friends...John 15
quote: 12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Jonathan, I think you'd make a most excellent FRIEND to Jesus...and I hope your Pastor appreciates the friend you are to him. Just keep your eyes open and see if those in position of responsibility in your Church are fulfilling it to you...because if they are not meeting your needs, then other needs are most likely also not being met-- I do not know, but being watchful cannot be a bad thing...you might see something wondrous to share with us later! |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 352
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 5:36 am: |
|
Wildwood: First of all, let me clear one thing up. Personally, I'm not an armor bearer. I serve on the praise team at my church, and that's pretty much all I do... except attend prayer meetings and that kind of stuff on the side (same thing for Men's Breakfasts and Young Adult group, etc.) --- my only responsibility, however, is on the praise team, which makes me a "leader" by my church's definition. But I'm not one of the two armor bearers we have at my church. Other people play that function.
I believe my pastor respects me. I believe he respects everyone. Although we have about 120 people, and we're a growing church, he does try to get to know everybody, and is a fairly approachable person. Both he and his wife, Pastor Karla, are extremely hospitable, and believe in opening up their home for church events and that kind of thing.
We really don't have doctrinal conflicts at my church. Different people might have different ideas on say... eschatology... but that isn't exactly our emphasis. The bottom line at our church is the Kingdom of God and the end-time harvest to win souls. Everything else flows from that.
We do have "formal" elders and deacons, but really its the dept. heads that are considered "staff" people. There is a difference between "staff" (which are dept. heads) and "leadership," which include anyone serving under a dept. head AND staff people as well. We're more of a functional-oriented church than a title-oriented church. The key is who needs to get the job done, and who is the go-to person.
My pastor is NOT subordinate to our church elders. Its actually the other way around at my church. We do have outside overseers (my pastor's pastor and one or two others), and my pastor is accountable to THOSE people. But the other church elders serve UNDER our pastor.
Jesus called ALL His disciples "friends," but He had 3 VERY CLOSE disciples who were more than just "friends." They were His closest servants. They watched His back. They were what we would call "armor bearers" today.
Lastly, I do believe my church meets my needs. If it didn't, then I'd not be there. I'm fully aware of that, because this was a driving factor at my previous church, and a major reason why I left... because my former pastor admitted to me that he could no longer meet my needs, and be my pastor. God bless him... people do the best they can with the light and knowledge that they have. Oh well... I'm on to bigger and better things in the Lord now. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 682
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.1.219
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 6:33 am: |
|
I'm on to bigger and better things in the Lord now
Even if that is a joke it leaves me feeling very uncomfortable. And if you were to reflect on it objectively, I wonder if you might hear the alarm bell it is sounding for me. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1242
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 9:29 am: |
|
I found this from a website: http://www.metropolitancc1920.org/ministries-armor.asp
What is an Armor Bearer?
Armor Bearers are not elected but are appointed by the Pastor from congregants who are in good standing, who are tithers, and who love the church and the Shepherd.
“The main function of one who is designated as an armor bearer is that of service . . . for the biblical armor bearer was much more than a hired hand. An armor bearer was a person who undoubtedly spent many years, if not one’s entire life, in the leader’s service.”
Duties of an Armor Bearer
Must provide strength for the leader
Must have a deep-down sense of respect for the leader, and acceptance for and tolerance of, the leader’s personality and their way of doing things
Must instinctively understand the leader’s thoughts
Must walk in agreement with and submission to the leader
Must make the advancement of the leader the most important goal
Must possess endless strength so as to thrust, press and force their way onward without giving way under harsh treatment
Must follow directives immediately and correctly
Must be a support to the leader
Must be an effective communicator
Must have a disposition that will eagerly gain victories for the leader
Must have the ability to minister strength and courage to the leader
(God’s Armor Bearer, Terry Nance)
What do you think of this? It left me speechless. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 766
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 10:29 am: |
|
Mattie, you're right as usual. This discussion is more useless than usual.
Kali Sarakosti |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1903
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.101
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 3:04 pm: |
|
well, dust, I guess there are churches that have armor bearers while maranatha and EN has handmaidens. There are people who love and want to serve the pastors with their hearts, thats pretty common. The problem here is that the pastors are still human and have the tendency to abuse that authority.
What you posted is quite disturbing , that armor bearer has just literally lost his/her own personality.
OR he should paid as a BUTLER. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 353
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 3:46 pm: |
|
Osakadan: My final point was that I've gotten over the hurt of leaving my former church, and I enjoy what is going on at my current church, and my involvement there.
Dust: That's an interesting website. I've never heard of this Metropolitan Community Church. On the other hand, some of what they are saying in their definition I disagree with, at least that is not how the "armor bearers" serve in my church.
First, in my church, the two armor bearers are neither elected, nor appointed. They basically volunteer and my pastor has approved them for that level of service.
Further, I would NEVER say that our armor bearers, or ANYONE at my church, "make the advancement of the leader the most important goal." Rather, it is advancement of the vision of the church that is most important, not the person whom they're serving.
Otherwise, the description given was fairly accurate, although I might subtract some other qualities, and add some that weren't listed, e.g. "Pray for the pastor/leader on a daily basis." And that sort of thing.
Ginger: I think its an over-statement to say that an armor bearer, or for that matter any servant in the house of God "loses his personality." The two armor bearers I know at my church, while they are fairly quiet individuals (both are somewhat introverted), DO have their own personalities, distinct from our pastor. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1906
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.101
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Krem, we do have people who pick up after the pastor's stuff after preaching, we call them Ushers.
Dust posted is more like a Butler than an armor bearer. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1958
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 7:06 pm: |
|
Modern ARMOR BEARER, job description and his tools of service. Actually if you read that job description through it is pretty similar to an actual armor bearer. |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 188
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 10:54 pm: |
|
Maybe EN's idea of an armor bearer is different than Krem's church, but I remember being taught by JL that the armor bearer should cover the sins of his leader so as to protect his reputation. That one statement soured me on the concept. There is nothing biblical about that statement and, in fact, it is in direct contradiction |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3033
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 11:17 pm: |
|
Forward, I am amazed that 'revelations' like this are swallowed so easily. Whoops. Forgot, there was this Maranatha thing in my past...
Seriously, I knew nothing of this made up 'office' prior to us talking about it. I am amazed at how many of these small independent charismatic churches are so attached to titles. It seems that everyone has to be assigned some kind of title...I wonder if it is that concept of "Look at us, we matter, we count for something!! Please look at us!" I suppose it gives people some sense of importance and standing before God.
Cover the sins of the leader? Give me a break! Sounds like to me the leaders may be involved in some kind of nefarious behavior and need a lookout.
OK, I am leaving like I said, I am just flabbergasted at this armor bearer thing. Total nonsense. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 357
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 2:35 am: |
|
Ginger: Interesting. Well, we have ushers at our church, and they aspire to be armor bearers, but the two individuals who ARE considered armor bearers are NOT ushers, and only the junior armor bearer deals with the pastor's stuff. The other is considered an elder and a watchman on behalf of the pastor and the church. Both of them intercede and pray regularly for our pastor. Whether they pick up the pastor's stuff or not after the service is really not what makes them an armor bearer. It is what ELSE they do behind the scenes, and how much TIME they spend with our pastor.
40: Interesting you should compare an "armor bearer" to a caddy. I have some personal info about this, because my brother was a caddy for a VERY LONG time... in fact, it was his first job, I believe. I think it is a good analogy, and yes, I would say that at least the junior armor bearer at my church IS basically my pastor's spiritual caddy, if you will. The other is more of a personal intercessor, watchman, and prophet to my pastor.
Forword: We don't teach that. We do not teach that armor bearers should cover sins of the pastor. Rather, its more of a "caddy" position, like 40 described so astutely.
Matt: I agree --- the armor bearer should not be covering the sins of the leader. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1960
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.190.119.225
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 2:44 am: |
|
Yes, Krems is speaking wisdom here. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3034
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 7:27 am: |
|
Can't resist: The Armor Bearer Graduate Studies School with a High Tuition
Krems, I wouldn't get up this morning and share this revelation with your brethren. They will put you on gopher patrol.
Hmmm...gopher. Another good name for Armor Bearer. Go for this, Go for that....as old Foghorn would say, "That's a joke son!"
This ridiculous moment brought to you by JRJ, whom I serve as one of his armor bearers. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 358
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 8:17 am: |
|
Matt:
Like I said above, only ONE of our armor bearers is like a "gopher." The other is more of a personal intercessor, watchman, and personal prophet to my pastor.... and that's all he does. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3035
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 9:08 am: |
|
Krems. Please. Don't you see how sinful it is that a pastor have a gopher? So against the example of Christ in the gospels. Your pastor needs to repent of his arrogance and pride. That you don't see this takes me right back to my Gone With the Wind post, but because your world view is so small, you didn't even understand the analogy.
Seriously, I know I joke with you but in reality my heart breaks for you...because I see through the eyes of history that you don't have... young broken souls who had the same blinders on their eyes 30 years ago, and sadly, 5 years ago (EN survivors).
You are at the point in your life that it is time to become a man. Earn a paycheck, ANY paycheck, learn to budget that paycheck, live on your own without any assistance from home, Pastor Tricky, or anyone else.
Until then, your pearls of wisdom regarding tithing, leadership, etc will just fall on deaf ears.
Only trying to help, sorry for the direct approach, but that is all I know to do with you. I feel like I am talking to my teenager at times....please listen to some of these folks in here Jonathan, they do care about you. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 359
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 9:13 am: |
|
Matt:
Actually, my pastor has SEVERAL gophers. Besides the junior armor bearer... there are ALL the ushers... plus anyone else he might draft (one time he even drafted ME, and that's not usually how I function).
Its not arrogant or prideful to have gopher(s). Its pragmatic, and functional. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3036
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 9:46 am: |
|
Jonathan, the term "gopher" is a rather derogatory term. After your last post, I stand by my statement. Your pastor is teeming with arrogance and in need of a humility heart transplant. A pastor with a church of 120 people doesn't need a gopher, he needs a trade, maybe like a tentmaker or something to suppliment what would be a part time job in my book. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 10:19 am: |
|
Aside from not feeling right, it's just so the opposite of JESUS CHRIST. I believe you may not realize, but this mocks our Lord, our God, the man who washed the feet of his disciples, and showed us that it is the LEADER who lays HIS life down for the sheep, NOT the opposite.
Super Apostle - Back in the day of the early church, this came with a heavy price, and these men DID lay their life down. I don't see this kind of commitment to Jesus Christ and the truth anywhere in the apostle "movement" of today, except maybe China and some other such places. Not in America for sure.
And, yes the word gopher is disturbing. Wrong. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 360
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 3:20 pm: |
|
Matt: I don't think the term "gopher" is a derogatory term. Of course, you're the one who brought this term into the fray of the discussion here. Was that a mistake on your part, or done intentionally as part of a strategic play???
My pastor has a trade... its called BEING a senior pastor of a growing church. He is in full-time ministry --- the "gopher" thing is something that just happens on Sundays.
Dust: For once, I do not understand you. What is so the opposite of Jesus Christ?
I believe the Bible teaches that we all should lay our lives down for one another. Shepherd for sheep, and sheep for their shepherd. We are to bear one another's burdens, and be "Aaron's," lifting up the arms of the Davids (pastors) in our midst. Everyone needs a pastor, and pastors need their flock. Its called INTER-DEPENDENCY, and such is VERY biblical.
Lastly, Dust, why do you find the term "gopher" disturbing and wrong??? Matt used this term to begin with --- I didn't. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3038
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 3:53 pm: |
|
Krems, once again, I cannot believe you do not get the nuances of writing. I used the term to ridicule the whole concept of armor bearer. Unpaid fetch-it men for your pastor are not men who deserve some title, they are gophers. You turn around and use it as an acceptable synonym for armor bearer.
Believe me Krems, there is no strategic plan in talking to you.
Oh, I was in the full time ministry too. One of the laziest most unproductive times of my life. No schedule, calling going out to lunch "working", expecting working folks to show up for 6 AM prayer meetings before they go to work, (I go back to bed)...
It is a lifestyle that permeates these jack leg preachers with no accountability.
J2 was right about you. For once youth trumps the old man. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3039
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 3:54 pm: |
|
I have really had enough now MCM78.
Yea right. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 362
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:15 pm: |
|
Matt: Its hard to discern the nuances of writing. For us, "armor bearer" is a concept, it is NOT a title. We might label someone an "armor bearer" or an "usher" or something else, but the only purpose of that label is to describe the concept, not to give someone a position or a title. They already have the position, but the label used is just a functional device to describe their role, be it "usher" or "armor bearer" or something else.
Well, my pastor is not like that. I spend time with him, personally, to a certain extent (I see him at least three times a week). I know he is productive with his time. He is SOOOO productive that we have recently added an associate pastor (my pastor's son) to our church staff. Both of them are on a schedule, but no one expects working folks to show up for 6AM prayer meetings at my church. We don't have any. We have two regular prayer meetings each week. The youth group has "Stand Up" every Monday at 7AM (before class) and the adults have intercessory Monday nights at 7pm. I go to the latter, every week. I see my pastor then, too.
So, my pastor doesn't fit the bill for the lifestyle of no accountability. He is so busy, we need two pastors. And his son is the same. Both of them have their own busy schedules, plus sermon prep time and the like. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 683
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.245.235
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:24 pm: |
|
recently added an associate pastor (my pastor's son)
Alarm bell #37 |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.4.125.11
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:42 pm: |
|
right Dan-O, I love the smell of nepotism on a sunday afternoon.
krems-My pastor has a trade... its called BEING a senior pastor of a growing church
::cough:: (multilevelmarketing) ::cough:: |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 363
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:44 pm: |
|
Osakadan: Why?
By the way, my pastor's son was already serving as the youth pastor, and he STILL IS. Its just that now he is serving the church full-time as associate pastor, in addition to being youth pastor. And he gave up a well-paying job for this, too. |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 208.182.75.11
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:47 pm: |
|
right Dan-O, I love the smell of nepotism on a sunday afternoon.
krems-My pastor has a trade... its called BEING a senior pastor of a growing church
::cough:: (multilevelmarketing) ::cough:: |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 768
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:51 pm: |
|
Mattie, Mattie, Mattie - et tu? 
You know, it's so easy to get sucked into a conversation like this. You think, "man, this thing is so obviously out of whack and full of abuse that with just a little nudge anyone could see that." Then you get sucked into the Alice In Wonderland world of WoF. Jonathan is nothing if not the Cheshire Cat of this corner of FACTNet - When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less. How can you argue with that attitude?
No, WoF has turned the scriptures completely upside down and the saddest part is that so many young, gullible, credulous people buy into it. It is no wonder that Jesus says in that day "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:23) |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.4.125.11
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:52 pm: |
|
right Dan-O, I love the smell of nepotism on a sunday afternoon.
krems-My pastor has a trade... its called BEING a senior pastor of a growing church
::cough:: (multilevelmarketing) ::cough:: |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.4.125.11
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:57 pm: |
|
right Dan-O, I love the smell of nepotism on a sunday afternoon.
krems-My pastor has a trade... its called BEING a senior pastor of a growing church
::cough:: (multilevelmarketing) ::cough:: |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 364
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:14 pm: |
|
Hey Dilly,
Don't be so silly, you must be trigger-happy! LOL.
mcmstaff: You think I'm the Cheshire Cat? WOW. That's a first. And that you would have the gall to say that whatever you write here is what you mean it to say... WOW... again a first.
And the WoF movement does not turn the Scriptures upside down... that is a loaded statement if I ever heard one, LOL. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 684
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.188.245.235
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:16 pm: |
|
I don't doubt the sincerity of the pastor's son, JBK.
Nepotism - It speaks to me of how churches such as these are organized.
Someone with more knowledge might be better able to explain but it just reaks of an imposed structure, and the dangers that it can lead to. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 367
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:30 pm: |
|
Osakadan: I don't get your point. Is there something wrong with with the senior pastor being instructed by God to have his son on staff?
My pastor's daughter is head of our nursery and toddlers programs (we call the Toddlers program Wee Warriors).
We're a family-oriented church... is there something wrong when much of the pastor's family are on staff, serving where God has called them to serve??? I don't see a problem with that. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 771
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:45 pm: |
|
What's wrong with nepotism?
What's wrong with a man accountable to no one, in control of church finances, appointing family members to paid positions?
"I see no problem..." As written before, "there is none so blind as those who will not see." I wonder how that excuse will fly on judgement day? "For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;" (Tit 1:7) |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1968
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.191.83.130
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:45 pm: |
|
jbk gopher is a derogatory term but I remember how you did not know what a troll is either.
To everybody else, Jesus did send out Peter to pay the taxes, notice it was just enough he did not send out Peter to find some buried fortune some where. Jesus would send others out to make arrangements for a supper meal or accomodations at times and I know Jesus was not being a user doing this, in fact those people wanted to help. Not every church out there was as hardcore at using others as the MCM/EN thingy.
Back to jbk: Well at least your finding out about the nepotism early. Just remember that when there is a son lined up for the ministry he gets priority over all your hard work. I think where nepotism can be hurtful is when you have a pastor with an infant and all the other men who are qualified after decades of work are passed over in favor of the young son but at least you know right now how it is. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3040
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:57 pm: |
|
(we call the Toddlers program Wee Warriors).
Hey Krems, I am being serious here. In our church we call them the Wee-Wee Warriors. And since we are Baptists, they can't 'walk the aisle' until they are at least old enough not to peepee in the baptismal. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 368
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:58 pm: |
|
mcmstaff:
I need to clarify a few things:
First, my pastor IS accountable to our "outside overseers." That's not their official title, but we have people who basically provide external oversight for our church. These people include my pastor's pastor, and a few others.
Second, my pastor's daughter is not on paid staff. She volunteers to be in charge of the nursery and the toddlers. OTOH, my pastor's son is NOW on paid staff. However, its just that... in terms of church staff...
So, there IS accountability... does that make the situation any better???
40: I do not see nepotism as a bad thing. We're a family-oriented church so that's what happens.
One other thing, to everybody... and especially for 40... my pastor has grandchildren. Both my pastor's son, and pastor's daughter, are each married... and have kids of their own. And, except for the grandchildren, everyone is involved in the church and the ministry. My pastor's son-in-law is on our worship team (he sings and plays guitar), and my pastor's daughter-in-law is basically the church's secretary on a part-time basis.
There are other relatives, too, that I could mention, some of which are involved with our church's school (Faith Christian Academy) or who serve in other capacities as well. But no one who is connected with my pastor's family who comes to our church is NOT serving... everyone is involved and is serving to the glory of God. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 369
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:00 pm: |
|
Matt:
I know you're being serious, but that's actually rather funny. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 772
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Accountability of one man to another man who is his "pastor". Hmmmm, now that just makes it all dandy.
"Serving"? Nah, that's called performing. See the Cheshire Cat quote above. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3042
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Krems, you can ask a number of us who were raised Southern Baptist. You were not allowed to walk down front to the sweet melody of "Just as I am" unless you were potty trained. Ask dilly, he'll tell ya. Defiling the baptismal will send you back to the Sunbeams. Many a Doctoral level minister in the Baptist Church started as Wee Wee Warriors. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 371
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:10 pm: |
|
mcmstaff:
Yes, my pastor has a pastor. And I can tell you his name, and the church he pastors as well, if you would like, although I seriously doubt that would placate you.
As for "serving," I meant that word literally, not "performing." I do not think what my pastor's relatives do for the church constitutes performance. For instance, his father-in-law cooks for our monthly Men's breakfast. His sister-in-law is the principal of the church's school (Faith Christian Academy). He has a nephew who is an usher. A niece-in-law who does the Power Point for our services, and who also teaches in the church's school. None of this is performance, but serving in the Kingdom of God. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 373
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:18 pm: |
|
Matt:
That's fine. I just found it funny, given what we call our toddlers. Of course, we're serious about the military name, and SB people aren't.
I was not raised Southern Baptist, but my pastor WAS Southern Baptist, before he was non-denominational (and WoF). Maybe I'll ask him after our evening service tonight --- PROBABLY NOT. LOL. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 773
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:32 pm: |
|
And to whom is the "pastor" accountable? What qualifies him, what makes his "accountability" worth anything? By whom was he appointed the "pastor" of your pastor? Who appointed him to be a pastor at all?
Ever see a corporation? Know what a board of directors is? Is there an independent financial audit of the books yearly? Do the members receive a regular financial report? Who sets the budget? Is it voted upon by the membership? Who is a signatory on the checking account? |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3044
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Be sure to ask him. It is part of our doctrine. Wee Wee Warriors...yep. I remember those days well. From there, we graduated into the Smiling Subterfuge. Finally, by age 12, you're an Amiable Artifice and ready to walk that aisle. You can look it up, its all there.
Wow I am really impressed that y'all are militant with your toddlers. Amazing. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 685
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:47 pm: |
|
we call the Toddlers program Wee Warriors
Alarm bell #38. While this attempts to be cute, it reeks to me.
As to the nepotism, of course it is fine to have family members serving the congregation but again the situation you describes is worrisome. While I don&t think the congregation should have complete authority, this seems like a very top heavy model, and unhealthy. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 776
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:48 pm: |
|
Gotta be impressed with people who use their kids as canon fodder, huh? Even it it is just an existentialist "battle with the devil". Gotta wonder about those aeons old bodiless powers quaking and quivering over those wee warriors. Toss 'em to the wolves!! |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 375
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:50 pm: |
|
mcmstaff:
My pastor is accountable to our outside overseer board. That's not their title, but explains what they do, besides coming in to speak at our church two or three times a year. Specifically, my pastor is accountable to his pastor, Tom Arnold, of LaSalle, Ill. He pastors "Mighty Word Church" in that city. Pastor Tom Arnold is over a ministerial organization, called AIM, which stands for Associated Interdependent Ministries. We are the flagship church for the Southwest region of the U.S., basically.
Pastor Tom Arnold formerly was Vice-President or some similar position under FCF, which stands for Faith Christian Fellowship, another ministerial organization, which we are ALSO a member of. FCF is based in Tulsa, and Pastor Tom Arnold received his biblical education at Rhema Bible College in Tulsa, as well. But Pastor Tom's ordination is through FCF, as Rhema is not an ordaining body.
I am not certain as to the precise history between my pastor and Pastor Tom Arnold, except that they go way back. I think somehow they were connected through FCF. Originally, when my pastor first started our church, he went to Rev. Buddy Harrison of FCF for assistance in terms of dealing with non-financial issues the church was facing. Pastor Tom Arnold at some point in time was Buddy Harrison's assistant on the business side of the ministry. Most likely all of the connections we have at our church to ourside overseers and the like were originated through Buddy Harrison and those under his organization.
Yes, I've seen a corporation and I know what a board of directors is. My church has multiple boards of directors (at least two). One is an inside board, which is basically our eldership (leadership is a much broader concept at my church). The other is the outside board of overseers. And we also have deacons, although they are not "board members," per se. However, its all legalese to my pastor --- and he looks to more functionalism, rather than titles.
I don't know if we have an independent audit. I've never asked and probably never will. There is no regular financial report... I've never seen such since I've been at Faith Church... which has been almost 2 years.
The budget is set by the elders (the pastor, his wife, and those who are considered elders). The budget is NOT voted on by the members... that is NOT biblical at all. I do not know who the signatory on the checking account is.
Does any of that help or explain? |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 376
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:53 pm: |
|
Osakadan: I don't know how to start responding to you. Where should I begin?
Why does calling our toddlers class "Wee Warriors" "reek to you" - ?
mcmstaff: Well, our youth group is very into the ATF program "Battle Cry." We are a fairly militaristic-oriented church... God's got an army, and you're a part of it, etc. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 777
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 6:59 pm: |
|
Exactly what does this "accountability" consist of? IOW, how is he accountable to them?
And what is the relationship with FCF? What do they do for these guys? What gives FCF any authority? From whom do they derive their legitimacy?
Wasn't talking about your "youth program". The discussion was on those "Wee Warriors" of y'all's. Just what the heck would a "wee warrior" be warring against? Wee demons? |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 686
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 7:15 pm: |
|
JBK, I am not out to attack you so will stop here with this comment.
While I understand a parents desire to raise their children in a godly and christian fashion, the use of 'wee warriors' seems like indoctrination to me. It also reeks of superiorism, and a host of other isms.
Anyway, as I said, I am not out to attack but they are things that raise alarm bells. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3048
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 7:55 pm: |
|
O-dan, this is tag team 'wrestling. You can't leave now, I am outta gas, tag me tag me...he's got me down for the count!!! Pull the ice pick out of yer tights!!!! |
mdillon
Senior Member
Username: mdillon
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 66.211.22.19
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 9:47 pm: |
|
kremsybaby-The budget is set by the elders (the pastor, his wife, and those who are considered elders). The budget is NOT voted on by the members... that is NOT biblical at all. I do not know who the signatory on the checking account is.
Does any of that help or explain?
OH MY GOD DOES IT EVER!!!!!!! OSAKI-DAN ALARM BELLS PUHLEEZE!!!
krems, are you the only one in the congregation NOT related to pasta Rickey?
mattie-Ask dilly, he'll tell ya. Defiling the baptismal will send you back to the Sunbeams.
oh, damn right hatter, and God help you if you were a turtle floater.
dilly |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3051
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 9:59 pm: |
|
God help you if you were a turtle floater.
I pulled the Baby Ruth candy bar trick on Brother Long just for laughs at Hillcrest Baptist. I was banished to eternal Sunday night Training Union. Just got home, no kidding Kremsy.
I think we have ruined this thread. Thank goodness. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 689
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
|
Baby Ruth Bars - The best thing about my visit to MLTS! |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 378
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 1:07 am: |
|
mcmstaff: You ask some good questions. I'll attempt to give you some good answers, in turn.
First, you asked about my pastor's accountability to Pastor Tom Arnold and AIM. I am not sure what the scope of the accountability is, but I do know that if anything happened in my church where my pastor fell, the bylaws would have Pastor Tom Arnold coming in as an outside overseer to oversee any church transition, etc. This would be similar to what Larry Stockstill did at New Life Church when Ted Haggard fell.
I also know that Pastor Tom Arnold is in "regular contact" with my pastor... Pastor Tom has basically full permission to speak into my pastor's life, and provides a spiritual covering for my pastor and our church. That's all I can say regarding that, but I hope that helps give you the start of an answer.
The 2nd question you asked concerns FCF, and our relationship with them. FCF has two different kinds of relationships that churches can choose from... either Affiliate (which is more like being a member of a denomination), or Associate (which is what we are --- we basically get a spiritual covering, and my church also tithes to FCF). FCF also provides opportunities for giving into world missions, much like the Cooperative Program does for Southern Baptists.
The authority in FCF is relational. My pastor also has a pastor that he relates to as a mentor and/or spiritual covering through FCF. His name is Pastor Larry Gordon of Cornerstone World Outreach Church in Omaha, Nebraska. This relationship was first formed on the recommendation of FCF founder Rev. Buddy Harrison.
Lastly, mcmstaff, the Wee Warriors are basically taught the foundations of Christian living, how to fight the fight of the Christian faith. I am unfamiliar with their curriculum, as I do not serve in that ministry.
Osakadan: Like I said to mcmstaff above, I am totally unfamiliar with what is taught in Wee Warriors. Its not as bad as you suggest, though.
Dilly,
Don't be so silly. No, there are many people in the congregation NOT related to Pastor Rickey. Actually, Pastor Rickey and his wife are the only elders (I think) who are totally related to one another. There is at least one elder who is not even in the family. I am not sure about this, but there might be an elder related through TWO marriages. However, while this person IS a deacon, I am uncertain if he is actually an elder. He is the church Treasurer/Secretary, for sure. But that's a legal position and title, not a spiritual one.
Matt: We have Sunday night Training Union as well. In fact, when my pastor was Southern Baptist, he was the Training Union director for his church. But we call our "Training Union" program "Believers Training class," and its basically like an Adult Bible school class. Its good, I go every week, except the 4th Sunday of the month (5th Sunday in April)... that Sunday is for Staff Meetings, and I'm not on staff. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 691
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 1:41 am: |
|
Its not as bad as you suggest, though.
Actually, I don't mean to imply that inappropriate things are being taught (right at the moment, anyway). Just that the name sounds a small alarm for me, that gets louder when I hear it in the context of other things happening in your church.
When I hear Believer's Training Course rather than a simple bible study, I put that with the terminology of Warrior, and the nepotism, and other things you have posted before, and I get worried. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 379
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 1:48 am: |
|
Osakadan: Well, the Believers Training course is not as warrior-like as you might expect. Actually, except when we've had guest speakers on Sunday nights, my pastor has been focusing on teaching us about the priesthood of the believer, and what we're called to do in our personal ministry to the Lord. It really is a good teaching, because you learn basically how to pray to Jesus the High Priest by seeing Him as who He is and what He has done for the Church (the Body of Christ). A lot of this teaching gives a close examination of the Psalms and other places in the Old Testament, and also draws strong parallels from the New Testament. So, its not a simple Bible study. We also have had several guest speakers since this class started in January, who have discussed other topics with us, none of which are or were militaristic.
As for "Warrior," there are other aspects of our church that ARE militaristic, including the way we view praise and worship, and prayer and intercession, as well. A lot of it is exhortation calling the church to awaken itself, and repent.
As for the "nepotism," we're a family-oriented church. But a lot of the core are somehow related to our pastor, although many individuals, including myself, are not. We do want to attract new families, and those us who go to intercessory prayer are believing for 10 new families to join our church this year, or more.
But given all of this, I do not understand why it causes you worry. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 692
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 124.96.163.206
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:01 am: |
|
I am sure you have a lot of good things going on in your bible studies.
The buzz words of warrior, and training, etc speak of a mind set that is POTENTIALLY troublesome. As is the top down model of a pastor appointing family members into positions.
It leaves me all feeling very uncomfortable, but I really can't explain it anymore than that.
JBK - it is hard to explain why it concerns me. |
speakword2004
Senior Member
Username: speakword2004
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:24 am: |
|
I remember once in the days when I used to prophesy the white off a skunk that I told someone that they were going to have an armour-bearer in someone who would constantly cover that person's blind spot, namely their rear. That this person would look out for him. The unfortunate armour bearer ended up being me for a season and I really did not need to be. I guess trying to protect a friend's ••• from getting the beating it deserved in ministry was futile all along and I missed what God was trying to say to me.
Perhaps God does have sense of humour?! |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 380
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:41 am: |
|
Osakadan:
I need to clarify something for you. The only position that my pastor has "appointed" is his son as youth pastor, and now associate pastor. As for the other family members being involved, THEY volunteered to serve and he agreed to it. No one else was appointed to anything except his son.
Speakword: Interesting. LOL. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 781
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 6:52 am: |
|
So, basically, "accountability" is just a word. You don't actually know what the relationship implies or how it works. If someone had a complaint about your pastor, would it go to this Pastor Arnold? Is there any kind of regular review?
With FCF is there any kind of disciplinary process or procedure, or is it just an organization to give "ministerial coverage". IOW, you pay your dues, will "ordain" you (i.e. grant you a "legal" ministerial license), but you're on your own to do as you will.
If your pastor were to fall into sin, engage in criminal activity or was grossly negligent of his pastoral duties, what recourse would anyone have to see him removed? I'm betting he and his family (or at best, close friends), are the only officers and "members" of the corporation for the church. |
forword
Intermediate Member
Username: forword
Post Number: 189
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 76.18.138.58
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 10:25 am: |
|
This talk of accountability to other WOF pastors reminds me of something. Seems like I remember being told about how MSI (now EN) was so great because there were 3 leaders that held each other accountable. Gee, that worked so well for them the concept must be sound. Hopefully my sarcasm will be duly noted. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 12:54 pm: |
|
forward, from what I recall from Rice's book and also from what I was told in my former church, that was the big difference between MSI/EN and Maranatha; the primary reason why we wouldn't see a repeat of Maranatha--because there was more "accountability." I think Big Tommy posted pretty much the same thing over on the Rick Ross boards. Not that the basic beliefs or practices would change but there would be more accountability at the top of the pyramid.
History I think has shown otherwise. We are witnessing Maranatha II. We may even be on the verge of witnessing Maranatha Breakup II based on reports that I and others are getting from various quarters. (I'll believe it when I see it though.)
The lesson should hopefully be that Shepherding doesn't work, and "covering" as taught and practiced by EN is a farce, well-intentioned or not. Even "modified," "kinder and gentler" Shepherding doesn't work. Christ alone is our Head and covering, not one's accountability partner. Accountability partners do not and can not take the place of the Holy Spirit, and that unfortunately is what has happened in several key EN churches and ministries, despite what EN has stated is its offical discipleship policy.
Fear of God is not expressed by fear of my pastor. |
coppertree
Senior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 1220
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.229.144.80
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:23 pm: |
|
Hi UL and Forward,
I would add that they don't seem to be accountable to each other well,as forword has said. These 'errors' lasted for years, under different persons noses with members of their immediate family.
Shepherding, has been well renounced by even, its creator in our church culture, Bob Mumford. This was a good day ago, 1990, primarily in Ministries Magazine and other Christian publications. It is disconcerting to say the least, that EN, is still using that tired dog teaching.
}}} |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 382
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 5:04 pm: |
|
mcmstaff: Again, good questions. Let me see if I can provide some good answers...
Yes, if someone had a complaint about my pastor, then Pastor Tom Arnold in Illinois would be your go-to person. But hopefully you would have gone to my pastor first in accord with Matt. 18.
As for a "regular review," Pastor Tom and his wife Phyllis visit our church at least 2 or 3 times a year. They will be here in late April, because we're hosting the SW Regional Conference for AIM. During these visits, they spend A LOT of time personally with my pastor and his wife, and review what's going on. Does this constitute a performance review, like you are asking about? I don't know, but my guess is YES.
FCF and AIM operate differently. Neither operate a Bible school, and so if you wish to be ordained (as opposed to licensed), then you must go to a real Bible school, e.g. Rhema, or somewhere else. The aformentioned Pastor Larry Gordon, who oversees the FCF side of our church did NOT attend Rhema, but went elsewhere for his Bible school education. Now, I know both FCF and AIM provide ministry licensing, but I do not know if you can actually be "ordained" by FCF. I do know that AIM does ordain people, and under AIM, the requirements for ordination are much higher than the requirements for licensing.
As for my church and my pastor, FCF provides coverage for us, but if there was a discipline issue for my pastor, it would be AIM handling the matter, and NOT FCF. But other churches might relate differently to these organizations. It really depends on what each church wants and needs, and what they have FCF and/or AIM provide for them.
If something like you suggest, mcmstaff, God forbid would happen to my pastor, then his removal or disciple would occur through AIM and the other outside overseers for our church. The outside overseer board does not just include Pastor Tom Arnold, but also includes other ministers, e.g. Jeff Tadlock in Philadelphia. Again, he ministers in our church 2 or 3 times a year, and provides similar counsel like Pastor Tom Arnold does.
As for officers/members of our church board, there are to my knowledge 3 or 4 of them. They include my pastor and his wife, and two others, one of whom is a VERY close friend who has been with the church since the very beginning, and another who is only related to my pastor through two marriages (he is not directly related). This person is the church treasurer, I believe.
Forword: Let me say something else that should be said. My pastor does NOT hold his own pastor accountable. Someone else does. |
iamspartacus
New member
Username: iamspartacus
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 85.195.123.22
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 7:33 am: |
|
Jesus is the only Super Apostle. Heb 3:1 The only other function of a New Testament apostle is to help Christians learn to serve others. Eph 4:11,12 The use of the word “apostle” is problematic because people define it differently. People who advocate what I call small “a” (a)postles usually mean a missionary or a sent one. It is also used synonymously with bishop in regional missionary settings. I have no basic problems with this usage.
The big problem occurs when people equate modern-day apostles, the big “A” (A)postles to the 12 in the New Testament. This carries an authoritative weight that can be disastrous if abused.
I have been surfing some of those EN leaders’ blogs, and it seems that Murrell and a few others like to avoid that big “A” stuff which he calls the “man of God” syndrome. It sounds promising, but I would like to hear a little more from them on this.
To my new Fnet friends I am interested in a doctrinal discussion of the difference between big “A” and little “a”.
Sorry for the sporadic appearances on Fnet, but I have been busy helping the kids with Algebra and keeping a smile on my wife’s face. Family first! Be blessed. |
jesusisawesome
Advanced Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 778
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.235.153.106
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 9:49 am: |
|
Hi Spartacus, Have you checked out the URL's that Speakword posted at the beginning of this thread?
If you go to http://www.cultwatch.com/, and if you scroll down there is a whole section of articles under "Attack of the Super Apostles", which is located under "Cult Mind Control and Greed in the Church". I have been perusing these articles the past couple of days, and think that you will find them helpful, if you haven't already checked them out. |
john_r_jones
Senior Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:23 am: |
|
I can think of some other titles that begin with a big "A" and end in "oles"
Jonesee |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1911
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.211.138
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:41 am: |
|
|
iamspartacus
New member
Username: iamspartacus
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 85.195.123.26
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 7:58 am: |
|
JIA, Thanks for the link, and I found many things there to be accurate concerning super apostles. I was raised Baptist, but was saved in MCM. I was in it from 84-89. There were some weird things that would come through from other MCM leaders, but I found out later that my pastor had tried to shield us from a lot of the excesses. Still, I would call my experience 50/50. I know that other churches really went through the worst of it.
Once a guy named Walter Walker came through, and I met with him for counseling. I was struggling with the dominion stuff, and he confided in me that not all leaders agreed with that stuff. In fact, I found out later that Walter was trying to undermine the extreme teaching on lordship-salvation. This helped my sanity at the time.
When Maranatha fell in 89 one of our campus pastors came back from the meeting singing, “ding, dong, the witch is dead..” I was in shock, but I soon found that my leaders had been under a lot of pressure to do things a certain way. One of my pastors sat down with me one day a year later, and began to apologize for every dumb thing he had done and some he had not done. He did this with everyone even those who had left years earlier. I am close friends with this man till this day.
My point in telling this is that I cannot come to the point of vilifying past leaders even though they were wrong or off-the-wall. I am more interested in overturning the “culture” or doctrinal errors that lead to such things. Part of my healing has been to take this route because the other route of reliving personal offenses simply dominated me. Still, I hurt for those who are still stuck in their pain, and I honestly still have to deal with it from time to time. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3079
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:10 am: |
|
My point in telling this is that I cannot come to the point of vilifying past leaders even though they were wrong or off-the-wall.
Spartacus, you were among the few fortunate ones who had experiences with good leadership, thanks for the encouraging story. I'm not sure anyone's purpose is vilifying past leaders but exposing the excessive life of those who learned nothing from the MCM experience except to take it to the next level of a Ponzi scheme.
To see the garish lifestyles of some of these people is a reproach to the gospel of Christ and exposing these charletons may cause some who are struggling to come up with the grocery money to wake the hell up.
It is a good path you have chosen, though, reliving personal offenses does no one any good. And I am not making any implications about your thoughts on vilifying past leaders. Your testimony gives hope for a healthy recovery for all who seek it. Appreciate your comments. |
john_r_jones
Senior Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 1620
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:29 am: |
|
iam,
i is in agreement with you, though I never rec'd any appologies that I can think of and ain't fishin for any. I do think the mission of the modern church is to become something other than what it has morphed into and I think you along with others here are on the right track.
Jonesee |
maranatha1984
Senior Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.218.178.39
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 4:10 pm: |
|
Sparty:When Maranatha fell in 89 one of our campus pastors came back from the meeting singing, “ding, dong, the witch is dead..”
Tikie:
If he had actually known what was coming he would have been quoting from JRR Tolkien and LOTR
" And after the defeat at Ithlien the men of Gondor slumbered whilst the Dark Power grew unnoticed..." |
maranatha1984
Senior Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.218.178.39
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 4:12 pm: |
|
JBK:As for a "regular review," Pastor Tom and his wife Phyllis visit our church at least 2 or 3 times a year.
Tikie: Now that is what I call REAL OVERSITE! |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1973
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 4:59 pm: |
|
Super apostle is tame, in reality they think their a literal Jesus composed of many members. The scriptures talking about Jesus returning it appears they are talking about themselves.
Did you know Jesus owns a timeshare at Disney World? and he won't let you help the poor but he can set you up with a cool paint ball gun.
Anyway if I am misreading this NOLR stuff let me know, anyone. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 401
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 5:35 pm: |
|
Tikie: What do you mean by that? I don't get it. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 704
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.9.186
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 5:38 pm: |
|
It is called sarcasm. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Is it really sarcasm? Phil is an apostle but in the NOLR the super apostles are a corporate Christ. Like I said if I got it wrong let me know. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1976
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 5:55 pm: |
|
jbk it means the bad guys took a nap and grew strong only to pop up later bigger, badder then ever like an old vampire or mummy. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 402
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 6:03 pm: |
|
40: Well, we don't believe apostles are a "corporate Christ" at all in my church. My pastor will be the first to say, "Jesus is the apostle (and the other office gifts in Eph. 4). We do not acknowledge apostles, but not as a "corproate Christ," which is ridiculous.
So, if that's NOLR, then that isn't us. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 705
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.9.186
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 6:13 pm: |
|
Did you know Jesus owns a timeshare at Disney World? and he won't let you help the poor but he can set you up with a cool paint ball gun.
In my part of the world that is called sarcasm. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1977
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 6:20 pm: |
|
jbk is your church WOF?
yeah osakadan it is sarcasm but it's not in a way because the NOLR doctrine believes that the super apostles as a group are the return of Jesus. It is so outrageous that a logical person will say that can't be true. |
jesusisawesome
Advanced Member
Username: jesusisawesome
Post Number: 786
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 15.227.249.73
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 7:16 pm: |
|
Iamspartacus: My point in telling this is that I cannot come to the point of vilifying past leaders even though they were wrong or off-the-wall. I am more interested in overturning the “culture” or doctrinal errors that lead to such things. Part of my healing has been to take this route because the other route of reliving personal offenses simply dominated me. Still, I hurt for those who are still stuck in their pain, and I honestly still have to deal with it from time to time.
JIA: Thanks for your response IAS. It's been approximately 14 years since I left this ministry. People that I walked alongside, years ago, who were also in full time ministry, have in the recent past experienced what I experienced and have been blackballed and maligned . . . people that served faithfully.
I washed my hands of all of this years ago and never intended to have anything to do with this ministry ever again. But the beat goes on, and history repeats itself. Part of overturning the culture or doctrinal errors is to expose them for what they are.
My former pastors have yet to approach me or apologize for what I walked through. I am not looking for that, however. I walked away from this years ago IAS. It is after seeing the cycle repeat itself, that I really had to ask myself what is my part in this, God? What is my responsibility? I believe it is to the young believers who continue to be deceived and sucked into the lies and deceit.
I don't think this is about vilifying past leaders. That is not the intention in my heart.
Many individuals have been blackballed and maligned when they have tried to point out the errors to leadership. That route has not worked. So how does the truth get to the innocent sheep?
Do these same leaders care about the people whose lives they've tampered with, whose good names they have tried to destroy?
It may not be your place to speak up, but I think each individual has to follow the leading of their conscience and heart.
It would be soooo much easier for me to stick my head in the sand and let it all pass by. I like my privacy and it has been humbling to share my own foibles and mistakes over the internet. I hope that by doing this, I can help spare others from walking through what I experienced. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 403
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:10 pm: |
|
40: Yes, I would consider my church mildly to moderately WOF. The sole purpose of apostles is to "equip the saints for the work of the ministry." That is what it says in Eph. 4, nothing more and nothing less. The NOLR view that apostles are a "return of Jesus" is clearly against the teachings of the Scriptures. Amen??? |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3086
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:32 pm: |
|
Krems, if you could only imagine how ending a post with "amen?" is like fingers on a chalkboard to many of us in here. And you will never understand that, I know, as I continually wonder what makes you want to spend your time on a site that you will never fully comprehend.
Former MCM'rs---Weener with the cupped ear--amen? Gag me with a spoon. |
osakadan
Advanced Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 712
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.9.186
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:40 pm: |
|
That and brother.....bring me the bucket. I come from a land down under and feel in need of a chunda. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 405
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.129
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:45 pm: |
|
Matt,
Well, would you rather me use the old Yiddish expression, "Fushte," - ??? LOL |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 3087
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 9:47 pm: |
|
dan-o, the amen thing is simply communication from the point of insecurity. It is like the urban lingo I hear frequently, "Know what I'm sayin'?"
If one is clear on his thoughts, there is no need to have to throw out the security blanket, "amen?" to get confirmation that you are 'right'.
Krems, folks come back and post to you not because your thoughts are so stimulating, but they provoke something from the past. And like I said, you will never get that. |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 406
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.85.7.132
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 6:40 am: |
|
Hi! To All especially to iamspartacus I've enjoyed your posts in few different spots...but cannot recall if I ever posted a welcome! And now I'm going to borrow from your post
quote:"The only other function of a New Testament apostle is to help Christians learn to serve others. Eph 4:11,12"
And from Jonathan
quote:"The sole purpose of apostles is to "equip the saints for the work of the ministry." That is what it says in Eph. 4, nothing more and nothing less."
And I'll even Amen those words. I'd even toss in JBK's phrase if I knew for sure what it meant.
JBK: And old news but thanks for the Armor Bearer discussion. If you ever become one...just make sure you put your armor on first. And that the load you are asked to carry...is worthy of Your Heart and not an abuse (like fetching laundry). I do have concerns for the Church you attend, but your words say you see their love...so for now...you must feel this is the place the Lord would have you be...maybe just to have open eyes to see...
As to Super Apostles I'd gladly welcome and work with Apostles who actually equip Saints for the work of the ministry (to preach the Gospel to the lost and serve in love one for another).
But where are they??? A quick Internet review of most "Super-Apostle" or "Wannabe-Super Apostles" ministries shows that scriptural relationship is reversed: The the Saints are equipping the "Apostles"...as in funding their huge homes, luxury cars, first class airfare. The Saints are also used as a cheap labor force to produce & market the latest book or Conference being promoted by the "Apostle" who charge not only huge speaking fees, but also get a percentage of the "gate."
These monies justified by the Super Apostle with "words" that a laborer is worthy of his hire (anybody remember Peter made TENTS not a fortune)and the Lord wants to show Blessing upon the Ministry...hmm, well if the money is a Blessing from the Lord, then it should be reverently and wisely handled for the work of that Ministry and not for a vacation for the Apostle which should be paid for out of his salary (like the least significant member of his ministry "team" would have to do..). A Steward doesn't use his Master's money to buy a Lexus, pay for a 6,000sf home, or $3000 suits. True Apostles would treat this wealth & these funds as belonging to the Lord and would honor the Lord's wishes by making sure the Sheep were fed first and their needs attended...before a swimming pool was considered as an essential item to do the Lord's work in.....
So, when these guys start living as proper Stewards of the money given to them by the Saints for the CARE of the Saints (particularly widows & orphans & senior citizens in need in their home congregation who still tithe...)...then perhaps they will finally be worthy of the title "Apostle"...of course most of the original 12-Apostles were slain as marytrs...because they dared to preach the gospel in the dark places of the world.
JBK...you may not agree now with much of what you read. But wisdom comes from knowledge and knowledge from the Word of God and the folks here have been yielding their hearts to Hear the Lord for many, many years now. They'd like you to be wary and not fall into traps they've escaped from....but we all have to walk our own walk. Just always remember...You can count on these folks...they only want the very best for you as their Brother in Christ. We all do! |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1982
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.192.157.25
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 8:06 am: |
|
jbk I will give you an Amen but I just wanted to let you know that there are some pretty big foundation stones in the WOF movement that are NOLR. When the NOLR move fizzled a lot of their preachers with some pretty unorthodox beliefs melded into the pentecostal/charismatic movement. There are elements out there that hide what they really believe because they know it is not accepted doctrine. One day you may come across this stuff so to be fore warned is to be fore armed. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 406
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 72.198.1.109
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 8:28 am: |
|
Wildwood:
I don't know if I'll ever become an armor bearer... don't know whether the Lord has me going in that direction or another...
Funding ministers is not a biblical definition for "equipping." To "equip" as the concept is used in Eph. 4:11 is to mature and perfect, to TRAIN for the work of the ministry. That is what my pastor does, and also the apostle that ministers to our church, as well. People don't charge huge speaking fees in our circles, at least not to my knowledge.
Further, the concept that "a laborer is worthy of his hire" is taken straight from the Scriptures. Yes, Paul was a tentmaker. However, this does not mean that ALL ministers should be bi-vocational. What has God called the minister to do? The Bible says, "Those who preach the Gospel are to make their living by the gospel." Who wrote this? Paul himself.
Perhaps there is more than enough money to ensure that the sheep are fed, and thus a surplus to buy the Lexus or a 6000 square foot home. Or maybe not. It is NOT our place to judge that.
Wildwood, you cannot base your doctrine on your experience, and I am afraid that you do that much.
40: I understand what you're saying. My church is fairly solidly based on the Word of God --- if it doesn't line up with the Scriptures, then you can forget it. We're more pentecostal and charismatic, and even "full gospel" than NOLR, as you suggest. |
wildwood_
Intermediate Member
Username: wildwood_
Post Number: 407
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 75.85.7.132
| | Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 7:47 am: |
|
Sisterly hug to you Jonathan! Although sometimes I think about using a wrestler's headlock (joking..I'm too short to pull it off)You said
quote:Perhaps there is more than enough money to ensure that the sheep are fed...Or maybe not. It is NOT our place to judge that.
Wildwood, you cannot base your doctrine on your experience, and I am afraid that you do that much.\clipart :-)
Well, of course I can!
I believe that's exactly what we are called to do. True “doctrine” flows from our life-relationship experience with Jesus as Lord & Savior, not just the remembrance of His words but the active Living presence of Him, His Love, His Spirit. A textbook doctrine is not alive. But we are re-born new creatures in Christ, as we become like Him... “We decrease” and “He increases”-- our understanding opens to see how He manifests His presence in Scriptures, to discern sound doctrine, and to grow in Godly wisdom.
Usually, my words speak (either as showing Him or not) rather than specifically citing scriptures because it’s my fingers typing and I do not want to inadvertently imply “thus sayeth the Lord". It's easy to cite supporting versesbut anyone can twist scriptures (even me). I was raised and still agree with the premise…not to take anyone’s quotes at face value but to always look for myself, and search these matters out Biblically.
Wildwood posts here not Jesus. Although I try to speak from my heart only those words that would please Him but I'm far from perfect on that..
I've been in groups where "Thus sayeth the Lord" and "specialty scriptures"...were used to end dissenting comments. To object would be to argue with "The Lord"...so I try to post in a "dissenter | |
