| Author | Message | ||
     sofree Member Username: sofree Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
We left Jeff Wisot's church in 2004. He has not heard one word from us in a LONG time. YET, he is still trying to convince people to avoid us. His latest, convincing a parent to sever ties with my son. Friends for YEARS. Wisot has not changed one bit. He is still a lying manipulating snake. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
I have to assume its game on time for Jeff? It is one thing to mark adults because they turned him in for covering for child predators, skimming cash out of the offering baskets, stealing half of the "love offerings" from visiting missionaries, asking a secretary to dig up dirt on people that leave his church, witness tampering, intimidation including, but not limited to using information on people he obtained during private counseling sessions and the list goes on. I think he takes the cake when he advises one of his brainwashed followers to sever ties between 2 children who have been best friends for years simply because his family left his cult? The truth is Wissy, seeing this childs face in your church is a constant reminder of all of your criminal activity. Marking a child to save your own arse once again. My my what would Jesus do? One would think a real pastor would welcome the child with open arms if you didn't have anything to hide. After all, his parents served selflessly for many years, both having held a position in your church until they confronted you with concerns. I guess its time to start handing out flyers, perhaps start a "collection" to put up that billboard we always wanted to do, making phone calls, maybe even hold another prayer circle on Otts Chapel. Mark that you con artist. | ||
| sofree Member Username: sofree Post Number: 67 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
Wisot's problem is this: He HATES to lose. With each person that left - he lost. With each person speaking up - he lost. Family after family leaving - he continues to lose. Sadly, those who continue to stay need a spiritual crutch constantly. They are too insecure to open their eyes and see the truth. They need constant reassurance from what they think is a "pastor." He is an imposter. A wolf in sheep's clothing. He keeps saying we are all evil, when in actuality, he is the one who is operating and functioning in darkness portrayed as light. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
I wonder how he will explain Kim leaving? What sort of ugly stories will he weave about a woman who has served so selflessly? I could only weep and praise God when I heard how he released her. Halleluiah! Mr. and Mrs. P, Since the "pastor" has asked you to leave after you have served him, filled his pockets, and damn near sacrificed your own marriage to do so, run like wind and do not look back. God bless you and good luck in putting your lives back together. Mr wisot...It is time to step into the light and confess. | ||
| paul_and_wendie_brost New member Username: paul_and_wendie_brost Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.121.191 |
sofree and chaz Please contact me @ paulbrost@comcast.net Paul Brost | ||
| bjerwin Advanced Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 529 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.219.65 |
Not ever having met Jeff Wisot, except possibly in passing, he sounds very much like Pastor Stevens. He learned that anti-Christ way of handling his insecurity at GGWO. It sounds as though he mastered it very well. Having been in the "inner circle" for a time, this was how it was with Pastor Stevens. I told this story once, but will repeat it. About 18 years ago in Baltimore, I was alone with Pastor in the car, my husband was out of the car for a minute, and he admitted to me that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of maligning people. I was shocked and amazed (and I am sorrowful to say I was too afraid to agree with the Holy Spirit and pray with him about it and tell him it was true). That might have been one of the important missed opportunities of my life. I don't remember ever having Pastor (who is my spiritual father even to this day) say such a thing to me. While we left within a year after that, I don't think his repentance was ever brought into fruit. I pray for this dear man who is so insecure that he has to be upset and mean-spirited when folks leave. I think of the potential for Christ. Anyway, I am sorry so many were hurt by this squirt of a man, Jeff. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 106 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
squirt of a man lol.... I will make it my goal to warn every unknowing person left in that cess pool and to lead them to factnet, as well as all law enforcement and media that have been contacted in the past to get the truth. Bank on it Jeff | ||
| sofree Member Username: sofree Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
He already started weaving the web about the "P" family. Long time faithful tithers - yu lose again Wisot. Another tithing family also recently left - you lose again Wisot. It won't be much longer before Wisot packs up an heads back to the West Coast. I have plenty of boxes... | ||
| sofree Member Username: sofree Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
my keys are sticking...can't keep up with me! Ya know, all that money spent on that $35,000 sign could have REALLY helped the three GG women stuck in a women's shelter. Tell me why I had to help one of those women? Where was Wisot? He counsels women to submit to their abusive husbands and not to anger them. His counsel is from the pit of hell. Doesn't work - ask those 3 women in shelters. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3830 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.205 |
The leaven continues to grow. }}} | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 107 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Sofree, Lets go a step further. They are running the scam of a store out of the church under the guise of helping the community. I just got a call today on exactly how they scam, of course steve martin is knee deep in it. Well, where is the community help? Where are all of the programs they were going to use the money for? Why are these women hiding in shelters while the abusers sit front row at "church" I have a nice photo for the News Journal. A friend went into the store and brought back some of their outdated food products that are covered in black mold. Wisot preaches a "health food " message from the pulpit to scam people into buying the outdated food. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E Where pastor got his degree | ||
| sofree Member Username: sofree Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
greaterdisgrace...eeeeewwwww! That does not surprise me! I think the funds from the con-unity store go to themselves... | ||
| sidethorn Senior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 1060 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.133.148 |
Thanks so much for putting up this link Chaz. So many things they were saying described GGWO cult leaders like Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller, John Love, Steve Scibelli, and people like Jeff Wisot so accurately its scary. Con artists like these will take many measures to control people and take advantage of them. Then they entrap them with their false doctrines about terrible things will happen to those who leave. They discredit outsiders as reprobate who should not be associated with. The group, its leaders, and its vision always take precidence over the individual, their loved ones, their friends, and their real needs. Scary what some people will do to take advantage of others and use them for their own selfish purposes. I'm also not surprised either about that store selling moldy food products Greaterdisgrace. Cult leaders often love money a whole lot. Often enough to think nothing of ripping off people even with old food products that a normal supermarket would have discarded many days ago. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1708 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
What's really weird is how some folks take comedy so seriously. | ||
| anon_brief Advanced Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 609 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.10 |
I recently received an email that indicated there was going to be a dispersal of information regarding Life Community Church in Delaware tonight around 7 pm. Does anyone know how it went or if the invited media were present? | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
It went off without a hitch. Looks like attendance is down at Life CONmunity church. Every car received a flyer encouraging people to question people who left, guard their children and check factnet to see if their church just happens to be listed. Someone was taking a smoke break from church and just sat back and watched. There were many photo ops. The camera man was very good. Afterwards we all met back up and continued to listen to the stories of the newly departed folks. The media personel have really done their homework. I know some think this is taking alot of time, but I think when you finally get to read the story everyone will understand Gods timing. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3845 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.101 |
Tic,Tic,Tic,... Jeff,Jeff,Jeff,... } | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Mr Wisot: Do you remember the day you came to my door with your joker smile to silence me? Do you remember telling me that "bigger men had tried before, Darrell, Paul..and well youuuu knowwww" " "and you, you're just a woman sooo"( what could I do) You mocked me and told me to be quiet because I was just a weak woman and couldnt touch you... Well you were right I am and I can't. I guess what I forgot to tell you was I have a mighty mighty Big God. I also forgot to tell you I have an awesome God. Guess what..HE CAN and HE WILL..You can mock me, but you can't mock God. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 111 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Robbed and widows lately? I guess you didnt learn from the Dovydenas case. I was schooled today on just how that community store of yours works. Once I waded through all the BS and the twisted logic, its seems that once again only you and steve martin are profiting. How long do you think you can fly under the radar before that non profit status crashes? | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
For those reading this board for the first time. Please take the time to go back to the Greater Grace Delaware threads, particularly those posted by Bambino. This will give a good foundation on what this church was built upon. you can go back to Greater Grace World Outreach and then scroll down to the Delaware threads. Life Community was created to hide from these stories. Greaterdisgrace@comcast.net.. For anyone with questions | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Some original posts will follow: It was funny, I had not even read Doris's post and the first thought that came to mind was the day you stood in the foyer waiting to go do some free work and your puppet masters house. I watched as you waited at least 45 minutes ( of your personal time) for an audience with his majesty only to have the Summers kid come sashay through the front door quipping "Is HE in" as he dashed right past you and up the throne room stairs without waiting for a response. I remember your comment and your feelings that day, and I felt them right with you. My heart grieved that you came to do what you thought was serving the Lord, your heart was in the right place and you were thrown out like used trash weren't you Ed? That is the Ed I knew. This Ed is a stranger, This Ed has strings attached to his back, manipulated as the puppet master sees fit. You see Ed we all Loved you when you were at your worst. We truely called you friend. We defended you when you were mocked and stabbed in the back. These are the reasons we stepped down Ed. Since you claim in one of your posts "at least I know the Bible" Why don't you go pray to the God of that Bible and stopped polluting the air and your mind with that fodder you're being fed. My heart grieves for you Ed and I forgive your slanderous remarks. Childrens lives are at stake and I won't sleep on that. If that makes me "evil" in the eyes of GG then so be it. I wish you the best of luck. I will leave you with one thought Ed. Tell me, in your heart of hearts do you believe these people are all "evil conspirators" Anne marie Dave and Sharon G Orlando and Doris P Harry and Heather V Darrell and Carol A Paul and Wendy B Pete and Karen L Brian and Marykay h Dave and Barb C Ray and Sue H Curtis and Cheryl H Paul and Annette J Bill and Brenda H The Hiltners Does this grieve you? Does it grieve you that the list goes on and on, faces you forgot about and wondered about, faces you were told stories about? I was still a blind GGer when the students in the school went from 100 to 50 in a matter of weeks. I believed the hype too Ed. Let this be your final thought.. Will you stand before God and say every single one of these people are evil, off, conspirators, evil doers, gossips? No Ed I don't believe you will... Peace brother | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Postings on this site have been accused of being slanderous. This is the shallow argument made by those trying to defend the inappropriate actions of their church leadership. Postings on this site have been accused of being attacks from Satan. This is the shallow argument of last resort. I know I have made an effective point when I am told “you are just under attack.” It’s the third grade equivalent to… “Is so…! Is not…! Is so…! Is not…! Use your God given discernment and stop explaining away facts by discrediting someone as under attack because they point out that your pastor is a narcissistic liar. Postings on this site have been accused of lacking faith. This is the go-to argument of the spiritually abusive system. If you are not “one” with the leadership then you simply lack faith. It takes more faith to trust the discernment received from the Holy Spirit than it does to give away your faith and put in it’s place a 100% faith in a man. Now that I have your attention… Read the sorted tail of lies and laws broken by P. Wisot of the Greater Grace Church of Newark, DE. This is the first of a series. This installment will focus on the factual events surrounding the new building campaign in Newark, DE “Reaching People and Making Lies” FACT: The Newark church owns 7 acres of land at the corner of Ott’s Chapel Road. For years a “vision” was cast from the pulpit to someday build a church on that corner. FACT: The site planning on the property was never properly conducted from the beginning because of the cost. FACT: At one point, 2-3 acres on the back of the property were clear-cut “without” a county permit. The church needed to submit a plan to the county in order to get a permit. There were two reasons there was never a site plan submitted to the county. 1)the cost of a proper site plan, 2) P. Wisot “feared” a wet lands designation which would make a portion of the land unusable. Apparently there was not much “trust” in God. FACT: After the illegal clear-cutting, the neighbor’s property flooded, and the Ott’s Chapel property flooded. FACT: The church was cited by New Castle County land development, and attended hearings with the county, and faced thousands of dollars of potential fines. A settlement was reached with the county by building a retention pond, and laying a pipeline. This historical perspective is important to put in proper context the recent events that followed in a build fund campaign in 2002. P. Wisot was willing to break the county land use development laws in order to fulfill “God’s” vision for the ministry on that property. His actions resulted in the flooding of the neighbors property, and cost the Newark body thousands of dollars to develop a storm water management plan, lay a pipeline, and build a retention pond. God will not be mocked. Read on and you will understand why. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
FACT: A campaign was put together in the summer of 2002 to raise money for a building, including a video re-casting the “vision” to build at Ott’s Chapel. FACT: The proposed plan assumed the acquisition of an adjacent residential property, surrounded by the church’s property. Despite what was represented during the campaign there was never an agreement for purchase or any “right” to purchase this property. This was an important parcel to complete any phase 2 construction as outlined in the campaign. The campaign went on anyway, despite a huge unknown regarding the availability of this vital property. The son of the owner was in fact hostile to the church, and made it clear he would never sell. This was never disclosed during the campaign. FACT: After the campaign was completed some site planning in the winter of ‘02-’03 was finally completed in order to obtain building permits. FACT: The ink was barely dry on the building fund campaign pledge cards, when in March of ’03 P. Wisot began the process of pursuing another property at Independence Way listed for sale at $5.2 million dollars. Roughly $3 million more than the budget presented in the fund raising campaign. FACT: On or about April 30th 2003, P. Wisot learned that there was a site planning error in calculating the green space requirements at the Ott’s Chapel property. The error was significant because it would effect the church’s ability to build its phase #2 building on the site. FACT: The planning error was used to justify the process of pursuing the $5.2 million dollar property. It was spun as a “change” in the requirements according to the New Castle County building code. This was a lie. There was no “change” at the county. The county just found the mistake made by the site planner. FACT: Even though P. Wisot knew there were serious problems with the “green space” calculations and that there was no right to purchase the adjacent property, the church continued to collect donations for the building at Otts Chapel Road. Donations were even placed in a model of the building for over a year. FACT: The effort to acquire the Independence Way property failed, and the body was lead to believe that the church could not build at Ott’s Chapel, because of county limitations, when the real issue was the church couldn’t build phase #2. There was very adequate space for phase #1 a 500 seat sanctuary, and numerous classrooms and offices. FACT: In the late spring of this year some people in the body started to question why there was no building being built, some asked for there building funds donations to be returned. Of course they were not. FACT: In an effort to do damage control the leadership came out with a building fund FAQ sheet in late May. In it an explanation is offered as to why the church needs to take on additional debt to buy a Gore facility for $3.0 million dollars, and not build at Ott’s Chapel. Below is a direct quote from the FAQ sheet that is a blatant lie. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
In March 2003, Larson engineering submitted our land use plan along with the required drawings….The calculations were based upon adequate space to house both Phase 1 and Phase 2…. And what we believed to be county requirements for green space. However, New Castle County Land Use in it’s April 30th review letter had REVISED the “green space” requirements from 10%-50% essentially limiting us to one building. FACT: How can the county REVISE something it is seeing for the first time? The county didn’t revise anything, their standards have not changed. Blaming the county for REVISING REQUIREMENTS FROM 10% to 50% is a lie. FACT: A misrepresentation or material omission of fact in the conduct of an organization involved in fund raising according to Delaware State Code constitutes a fraud. FACT: By concealing material facts and continuing to collect campaign donations the church defrauded the body of Christ in Newark, Delaware. God is not glorified when the leadership and P. Wisot did not disclose to the body the problems with the Ott’s Chapel phase 2 plans. And then when questioned, lied to the body by blaming the New Castle County Land Development for the problems. QUESTION: The Newark, DE church could still build a 500-seat sanctuary at the corner of Ott’s Chapel and Old Baltimore Pike. Why don’t they? Is it possible that a 500 seat church on the corner is not big enough to feed the “rock star” ego of P. Wisot? QUESTION: If the plans needed to be changed for long range planning purposes, why not disclose the problem? And give people a choice to stay “on board” with the new plans, or give them there money back. Why does the leadership find it necessary to lie to the body of Christ or hold back material changes in the plans? COMMENTARY: Imagine you hired a contractor to build you a 3000 square foot house for $300,000. You put down a deposit, and before construction starts the contractor comes back to you and says… “I don’t think you want a 3000 square foot house, you are a small-minded simpleton that really doesn’t know what is good for you, I am going to build you a 7000 square foot house, for twice the price. It’s a good deal…look what you are getting!” Would you go along with the contractor even though there has been no real change in your financial standing? No! you would go back to the contractor and say, “build the house you said you would build or give me my money back!” The contractor says, “you have so little faith, just trust that I know what is good for you, you are under some sort of attack, lie down and be still while give you what you really need.” In the Greater Grace leadership model there is no accountability. The Pastor can break the law to pursue his agenda, he can hold back information so the money keeps rolling in. Oh, what about the trustees you ask? Holding the Pastor accountable would require a spine...something lacking in Newark, DE | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Taxes? We don't pay no stink'n taxes! Welcome to part two of a three part series on the conduct of the Greater Grace ministry in Newark, Delaware. In this segment the writer will not make specific allegations of tax fraud in Newark. Those familiar with the Delaware Church should be able to draw their own conclusions based on the presentation of fact patterns in the context of specific tax law references. This presentation will focus on four areas of conduct: 1. Barter arrangements within the ministry 2. Private inurment 3. Rental properties 4. Reporting of income Barter Arrangements The IRS defines bartering as income “when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money.” A direct quote from the IRS under topic 420 states: “Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties. Income from bartering is taxable in the year in which you receive the goods or services. …If you are a member of the clergy, you must include in your income offerings and fees you receive for marriages, baptisms, funerals, masses, etc., in addition to your salary. Suppose a person is a teacher at a school, or takes some other position of leadership and in exchange for their service to that school, their children 1, 2, or perhaps 3 receives free tuition. The value of the tuition is reportable income. There are some deductions for educational expenses that can offset part of the repartable gain due to a bartering arrangment, however those are only available thorugh “eligible educational institutions,” or accredited institutions. To the extent that any tuition has been waived for the children of teachers at the Greater Grace School in Delaware. Income equal to the fair market value of that tuition is reportable income on the individual tax returns of each teacher or administrator for each year the arrangement was in place. Private Inurment Private inurment occures when someone with a controlling interest in a non-profit corporation uses their position to influence the application of the organizations resources for there own personal gain. An example would if leader X of Y, a nonprofit group, was able to influence Y’s board to award a construction contract to a company owned by X. As a result of the arrangment, X will enrich (inure) himself through the application Y’s resources to a project that was profitable to X’s company. Let’s say for example, an individual or contractor that attended a church performed work on the Pastor’s personal residence, or other property. In exchange for the work, the church provided free bible college tuition or school tuition. This arrangment if it exists is problematic for two reasons. 1) The Pastor has enriched (inured) himself by bartering the resources of the church (bible college classes and school) in exchange for work on his personal residence. The person performing the work has reportable income equal to the fair market value of the tuition received. Private inurment violations, have caused some organizations (religious included) to loose their tax exempt status with the IRS. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
A tax exempt organization may be liable for taxation on activities that it undertakes outside the normal scope of it’s stated objectives. Notice the following from the IRS: “Even though an organization is tax exempt, it still may be liable for tax on its unrelated business income. Unrelated business income is income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the performance by the organization of its exempt purpose or function except that the organization needs the profits derived from this activity. An exempt organization that has $1,000 or more gross income from an unrelated business must file Form 990-T, Exempt Organization Business Income Tax Return.” The definition of UBIT qualified activities is the key to identify the potential tax liability an organization has. Trust me on one thing… you don’t want to spend as much time reading tax code as your writer has. To understand the UBIT concept, several examples are given in the IRS circulars related to the “rental” of assets a non-profit organization may own. An 85/15% ratio of rental use is the test applied to determine if the asset is core to the organizations stated purpose. If the utilization of the asset is rented and used for rental income and it’s utilization in that arrangement exceeds 15% of the overall use, the asset is not considered “in support of the core purpose of the organization.” Income derived therefore from such a property is taxable. Refer to IRS Publication 598 for a detailed explanation of the UBIT requirements for rental properties. The UBIT requirement does not end with the leasing or renting of property, UBIT liability also exists related to capital gains from the sale of an asset that has been used less than 85% of the time for the stated objectives of the non-profit organization. Let’s suppose a church buys a property and rents it out for several years. It would owe taxes on the rental income each year. It then converts the property back to a core use, UBIT liability ends when the core use is re-established. Instead of converting the property, the church sells the property. The capital gain falls under the UBIT definition and could be taxable. Undocumented Income Since 9/11, and the development of numerous organizations soliciting charitable donations, the IRS has found it necessary to initiate an aggressive investigative project to identify abuses of non-profit leadership compensation. The following is “cut and paste” copy from the IRS web site: “IRS Tax Exempt Compensation Initiative: This summer, we are launching a comprehensive enforcement project to explore the seemingly high compensation paid to individuals associated with some exempt organizations. This is an aggressive program that will include both traditional examinations and correspondence compliance checks. The purpose of the project is to enhance compliance by learning what practices organizations use to set compensation; learning how organizations report compensation to the IRS and the public; and creating positive tension for organizations as they decide on compensation arrangements. These organizations need to know that their decisions will be reviewed by regulatory authorities. This project also will have educational components. We will be contacting hundreds of organizations. During the first stage, we will be looking at public charities of various sizes and private foundations. We will be asking these organizations for detailed information and supporting documents on their compensation practices and procedures, and specifically how they set and report compensation for specific executives. (take special note here from the IRS) Organizations also will be asked for details concerning the independence of the governing body that approved the compensation and details of the duties and responsibilities of these managers with respect to the organization. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
A tax exempt organization may be liable for taxation on activities that it undertakes outside the normal scope of it’s stated objectives. Notice the following from the IRS: “Even though an organization is tax exempt, it still may be liable for tax on its unrelated business income. Unrelated business income is income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the performance by the organization of its exempt purpose or function except that the organization needs the profits derived from this activity. An exempt organization that has $1,000 or more gross income from an unrelated business must file Form 990-T, Exempt Organization Business Income Tax Return.” The definition of UBIT qualified activities is the key to identify the potential tax liability an organization has. Trust me on one thing… you don’t want to spend as much time reading tax code as your writer has. To understand the UBIT concept, several examples are given in the IRS circulars related to the “rental” of assets a non-profit organization may own. An 85/15% ratio of rental use is the test applied to determine if the asset is core to the organizations stated purpose. If the utilization of the asset is rented and used for rental income and it’s utilization in that arrangement exceeds 15% of the overall use, the asset is not considered “in support of the core purpose of the organization.” Income derived therefore from such a property is taxable. Refer to IRS Publication 598 for a detailed explanation of the UBIT requirements for rental properties. The UBIT requirement does not end with the leasing or renting of property, UBIT liability also exists related to capital gains from the sale of an asset that has been used less than 85% of the time for the stated objectives of the non-profit organization. Let’s suppose a church buys a property and rents it out for several years. It would owe taxes on the rental income each year. It then converts the property back to a core use, UBIT liability ends when the core use is re-established. Instead of converting the property, the church sells the property. The capital gain falls under the UBIT definition and could be taxable. Undocumented Income Since 9/11, and the development of numerous organizations soliciting charitable donations, the IRS has found it necessary to initiate an aggressive investigative project to identify abuses of non-profit leadership compensation. The following is “cut and paste” copy from the IRS web site: “IRS Tax Exempt Compensation Initiative: This summer, we are launching a comprehensive enforcement project to explore the seemingly high compensation paid to individuals associated with some exempt organizations. This is an aggressive program that will include both traditional examinations and correspondence compliance checks. The purpose of the project is to enhance compliance by learning what practices organizations use to set compensation; learning how organizations report compensation to the IRS and the public; and creating positive tension for organizations as they decide on compensation arrangements. These organizations need to know that their decisions will be reviewed by regulatory authorities. This project also will have educational components. We will be contacting hundreds of organizations. During the first stage, we will be looking at public charities of various sizes and private foundations. We will be asking these organizations for detailed information and supporting documents on their compensation practices and procedures, and specifically how they set and report compensation for specific executives. (take special note here from the IRS) Organizations also will be asked for details concerning the independence of the governing body that approved the compensation and details of the duties and responsibilities of these managers with respect to the organization. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Other stages will follow, and will include looking at various kinds of insider transactions, such as loans or sales to executives and officers. We also will be looking at organizations that failed to, or did not fully complete, compensation information on Form 990. (end of the cut and paste) Identifying schemes where non-profit leadership realizes unreported income is of particular interest to the service. For example if a church credit card were used to purchase personal items and services like piano and dance lessons for a leaders children. The activity would certainly be permissible, but the expenditure is reportable income. Other things like auto repairs, or vacation expenditures can be charged on a non-profits’ credit card, but again these types of expenditures would be reportable as income Another type of reportable income falls under the category of cancelled of forgiven debts. Let’s say for example that a non-profit leader has work done by a contractor on his personal residence, to install a doorway and underground stairwell to access his new pool, and the bill from the contractor totals $2,500 dollars. The leader doesn’t want to pay the bill, and sends an associated person to meet the contractor and try to negotiate the bill. In the meeting the associated person solicits a concession on the bill as a donation to the non-profit. The contractor reluctantly agrees and the leader pays $550 instead of the $2,500. The forgiven debt is not a gift to the individual but to the non-profit because of the solicitation by the associated person. As a result the difference between the original bill and the amount actually paid is reportable income to the leader. Those of you familiar with the GG Church in Newark, DE will now better understand the future tax liability that exists, for both the church and individuals because of the conduct of the ministry. But are you really surprised? The same character that clear cuts land, lies to New Castle county, and omits material facts in a building campaign is certainly capable of not rendering to Caesar, that which is Caesar’s. The Bambino Coming Soon Part 3: “We are a humble people…those that leave are Spiritually Brain Dead” | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
In part 3 the authoritarian leadership model will be outlined, as well as some of the spiritually abusive practices observed in the ministry. This series has attempted to deal with it’s subject from a factual perspective. The writer is not surprised to observe several critical postings from those defending the work in Delaware. The reader should note that there has not been a single posting that refutes the fact patterns outlined. The opposition does not like to see light shined on the corruption in the ministry, but cannot seem to offer a substantive contribution, just name calling, or to redirect the attention to the Bible and Jesus. This process is in fact about the Bible and Jesus. What would Jesus do when presented with a fact pattern of corruption in His church? Fortunately we don’t have to guess this answer. It is given to us plainly when He entered the temple and responded by violently over turning the tables of the moneychangers. We are taught from the Greater Grace pulpit to study the life of Jesus, and a follow Him as the perfect example of humanity. Did He as the perfect human example use discernment? Yes. Did He get angry when he observed the corruption? Yes. Did He ignore it, or explain it away by saying, “Another human with a sin nature…Oh well.” No. The study of the life of Jesus seems to stop at Greater Grace when He began to challenge the authority of the religious elite of His time. Those that have posted arguments to discredit this writer by pointing out the overall sin nature of man, make the point of this series. Man has a corrupt and sinful nature, which is exactly why an authoritarian leadership model of church government is flawed. Pastors are no different than the people in the pews. Just because you can quote from memory half the Bible, does not exempt a Pastor from the sin nature of humanity. This series has not dealt with any personal sins of the P. Wisot, but rather the overall corrupt nature of his leadership style in the church, and the lack of meaningful oversight related to his financial conduct in the ministry. The record is what it is. There are two kinds of people attending Greater Grace in Newark, Delaware. Those that have no knowledge of the financial conduct of the ministry, and those that enable the process. Which are you? The reader can stick his head in the sand and choose to ignore the fact pattern, or, you can be more like Jesus, become outraged and start flipping over some tables. We’ll let more of the record help you decide…. There’s a scene in the movie “The Untouchables” when Robert DeNiro in the role of Al Capone calls the heads of his crime families together for a meeting. He speaks to the group about everything they have accomplished, and how unique their organization is. The meeting is a pep rally, a call to action for the troops in his fold. There’s been some challenges within the organization though, and without warning Capone picks up a baseball bat and bashes in the head of one of the guys at the table. A summary execution of the individual because he was disloyal and questioned Capone’s authority. The impact of the event is powerful because of the violent nature of Capone, and the ease at which he took a life. The blood splattered everywhere and the graphic characterization of the beating left little to the imagination. But why beat a guy’s head in at while sitting at a conference room table? Certainly Capone could have just taken the man out to an obscure cornfield somewhere like so many others. The beating at the conference room table had little to do with the guy on the receiving end of the bat and everything to do with the message to the others sitting around the table. “Step out of line, and your brains will be lying on the floor too.” The scene effectively captures the character of Capone’s leadership style. One of total control and authoritarianism. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
There was no discussion regarding the nature of the problem, no solicitation of input from the staff around the table, and no problem solving process. Just a baseball bat and a summary execution, the offender needed to be discredited and dealt with swiftly. What does a bat swinging Capone have to do with Greater Grace in Newark, Delaware? Read the notes published from a March 16th staff meeting below, and see if you can pick out the summary execution of the trouble makers…. And, for all you critics of shining the light of day on the character of P. Wisot. These are “his” published words, not the writer. Hint… The execution in this meeting is a “spiritual execution”… | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Pastor Jeff 3/16/04 Morning Devotional given to the staff of HCA: Sometimes in the intensity of the warfare we settle into a pseudo-humble position. We need to know who we are and boldly proclaim it and be fervent for Jesus Christ. We are instruments for the hand of God. Our staff is strong! We are not a fledging group. We are Bible teaching instruments of God in these last days. We are a remnant We are Bible entrepreneurs. This is a shocking work, an unbelievable work! There are envious, jealous, small-minded people who try to intimidate us. We are a powerful, effective tool in God's hands; we cannot let ourselves be intimidated. This is a monumental work of God in these last days. We are an energetic, dynamic, fervent group of Christians. You can't find anyone like this ministry anywhere around here. What other churches are taking on a bible college, Christian school, specific themes, discipleship, visitation, discovery, blitzes and much more? We as a staff must understand who we are and proclaim it boldly. We can't be afraid to say things. We can't be intimidated and quietly sit by and not speak. We must understand who we are. We are not an aristocratic group above other people. We are a meek and humble people. We reach out to people ands minister to people. God is raising this work up to be an incredible work. Isaiah 59:19: So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. Non-believers and passive believers want to pour water on the coals but God wants to fan the flame! Dan 11:32: And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. We are God's people. The day is at hand. The day is far spent. It is time to be zealous, fervent and excited without intimidation and fear and without wavering. These are the days to be fervent and on fire, pursuing Him with all our heart. As a pastor, I have been intimidated and I am sorry that I have not taken a stand against the proud people who have left our church. Anyone who has left doesn't see what God is doing at Greater Grace Church and they are spiritually brain dead. They don't know all they are missing. These are the greatest days of our church. Naturally minded people have tried to intimidate us for too long. I am not going to be intimidated any longer; I am pushing this ship forward! We have to boldly proclaim who we are as a ministry. Don't be quiet. We have been intimidated by this world's system long enough! Let's be bold and confident in these last days. Let's be offensive and not defensive. (end of notes) | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Can’t you just visualize Capone, bat in hand, as he proclaims that those “small minded people… leaving this church… are spiritually “brain dead.” SMASH…! Spiritual brains laid out onto the floor…. If you’re a staffer at this meeting, do you want a bat taken to your head too? Likely not! You stay in line, and push forward despite the corruption, and lies. The writer would also like to point out the contrast of proclaiming “humility” followed by the “pride” statements that occurred right before the spiritual homicide. As if this was some sort of justifiable process. Can the character of this pastor be any clearer? The reader is urged to study the notes. Ask your self, how is Christ glorified by declaring His people “spiritually brain dead?” A few lines have entirely captured the heart motivation of the work in Delaware. The word “we” appears 21 times! We are this… We are that… We are unique…. How much of the power actually comes from God, and how much is the human “we” power in Delaware? In the weeks following the unauthorized release of the notes of this meeting, there was an internal investigation to try and determine who leaked the notes. Not that there was outrage over what was said… The response was that “we” must find the infidel that released these notes, so their spiritual head can be bashed in too! The point of this series is to document the heart motivation of the ministry in Delaware. The body of Christ should be about serving God, and the pastor is there to feed the people in that process. In Delaware, the church is about building a kingdom, and the body is there to feed the pastor. A few years ago P. Wisot taught a bible college class on leadership. Central to the class was John Maxwell’s book on the “21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership.” Which chapter covers the “head bashing” law? Sorry, that was in Capone’s book… “The 21 Irrefutable Ways to Maintain Control” Make an example out of those that don’t stay in line. The notes from this staff meeting are the “smoking gun” regarding the true heart of the ministry in Delaware. It’s not about “Reaching People and Changing Lives” it’s all about kingdom building, and feeding needs of a central character, the pastor. The problem is the central character is a sinner like the rest of us in the pews, and in a government where there is no oversight, no accountability, the result is corruption. So when land is clear cut in violation of county code… nothing happens. When financial controls are limited and wrought with unreported income and tax evasion…nothing happens. When people are lied to, and fact patterns are “spun” in a building fund drive… nothing happens. What happens…? The people that speak out about these atrocities in Newark, Delaware are labeled as “sewers of discord” and when they leave the ministry they are spiritually executed by P. Wisot. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Pastor Schaller, I originally had and still have a seven page rebuttal of the letter that you sent out to all the affiliate pastors. I decided that I would not send it, knowing that you would probably not read it anyway. I will therefore briefly summarize the major points from that rebuttal with the logical and dogmatic conclusion to which they have brought me. I suggest you read this brief statement in its entirety because there are some concluding statements that will have a very direct impact on the ministry in Baltimore and on your ability to continue as it’s leader. My points of contention are as follows: 1. You do not agree with the consensus arrived at by the affiliates at the Sandy Cove meetings with respect to the role that the Baltimore church is to play in the future. 2. You are errant to the point of bordering on apostasy in your insistence on transferring Old Testament truth concerning the offices of priest, prophet, and king to the New Testament office of pastor, rather than rightly concluding that those offices are typical of the offices of Christ. This includes your errant position on “the anointing”, which was also clarified at Sandy Cove and with which you were in disagreement. 3. You insist that we all are in agreement or should be on major points of doctrine as long as our agreement lines up with your erroneous interpretation. 4. You are suffering from delusions of grandeur in that you believe you will inherit a double portion of Pastor Stevens’ ministry. From where I sit, that can only mean a multiplication of error. 5. You insist on making truth hinge on such subjectivity as “a Biblical culture, experience, and heritage that is so sacred to us, intrinsically woven into the fabric of our souls” and not on the objective truth of the rightly divided scriptures. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
6. You have confused loyalty to a man (Pastor Stevens) with loyalty to Jesus Christ. 7. You equate affiliation with centralization of control, Baltimore and yourself being at the helm. 8. You are responsible without remorse for undermining the action and decision of the board of elders in electing Pastor Roger Stenger to the position that you now wrongfully occupy. GGWO has never taught that a pastor is elected by the congregation. 9. You deny all responsibility for any wrong doing in the recent happenings in Baltimore, including the blatant violation of the pact that you signed stating there would be no further maligning of other men of God. 10. You are living in a misconception about your gifts and administrative abilities based on an invalid conclusion that the churches that you have planted are doing well under your leadership, when in fact there are several of them that are in serious trouble if they don’t get a true pastor in the pulpit. In conclusion, I can no longer in good conscience receive financial support from the Baltimore church. I will immediately be communicating with those individuals who have supported me and will be making other arrangements to receive their contributions, should they wish to continue to support me. I trust that in the mean time, any monies that arrive specifically for me will in fact arrive in my account. I will also tell you that if you, any member of your administration, or any member of the MBCS administration in any way interferes with or influences .........decision to return to Argentina upon graduation in May, that I will without hesitation inform the IMF that you are encouraging students to violate the stipulations of their student visas. I strongly urge you or any others who have offered him a paid position to immediately withdraw that offer. Since your original letter was posted to all of the affiliated ministries, and in light of past treatment of those who have in obedience to God declared their position, I will simultaneously send this letter to all affiliated ministries for the purpose of their knowing first hand where I stand and why I have severed affiliation. I bare you no personal malice and sincerely pray for you to consider the overwhelming number of affiliated pastors who have expressed their similar concerns to you. You cannot easily ignore when long-standing servants of God stand united in protest. I would hope that we could at some future date once again serve God together, however as it currently stands, that would demand a repentance and change of heart on your part. I wish you the best of luck in steering what remains of the ministry. You’ll need it because I don’t see much in the way of God’s blessing in the future for GGWO. Sincerely and securely in Christ, Pastor RW Wood Wow, a real pastor with real convictions, twisted wisot signed that sandy cove document. Ask your pastor to expound on each of these points, you will find he preaches the exact same message | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Repost concering name change to Life CONmunity. Hiding behind a name Disaffiliation with Baltimore? So what… This makes me laugh out loud. So does this mean that the ordination from and unaccredited bible college is now invalid? News Flash…. 40+ Families and 50% of the school students didn’t leave the Newark Church because of the Baltimore affiliation. This is yet another attempt by the Teflon man to try a spin his way out of accountability. Can we now say that Wisot is “off,” “lost” or “spiritually brain dead” for leaving the Greater Grace Ministry? I guess so… he is now one of us? I’ll be looking forward to his posts on factnet. Ask yourselves these questions… Was anyone in Baltimore holding a gun to Wisot’s head when he flooded the neighbor’s property, and caused a 1 acre lake to form on the Ott’s Chapel property by authorizing the clear cutting of the property without a county permit? Did Baltimore mandate the operation of an unlicensed daycare on church property where children were abused? Was there a guy from Baltimore there the day they ran the illegal water hose from the church building to the rental house? Did someone from Baltimore show up at Doris’s house uninvited to harass her? Was the staff meeting, where Wisot called those leaving the church and school “spiritually brain dead” conducted by someone from Baltimore? Did someone from Baltimore come along and say, “You better look at Independence Way because the Ott’s Chapel property is just too small for your vision? Ignore the fact that attendance is down and the school enrollment is off 50%... Go out and get a 65,000 square foot facility…?” Was it someone from Baltimore that lied to the body in Newark about the viability of the Phase #1 and #2 building project at Ott’s Chapel during the building fund campaign? Were representations about the project made by someone from Baltimore, knowing that not even preliminary site plans had been submitted to the county, and weren’t submitted until 4 months after the campaign was over? If the other GG pastors around the country are forming a new affiliation, we applaud their efforts, and pray for healing in their ministries. In my view as someone that attended the Newark Church for 5 years, and served on the trustees and in other leadership capacities under Wisot, the issues in Delaware are not simply solved through a Baltimore dissafiliation. To the pastor involved in this new affiliation: Your future would be best served by a second disaffiliation, specifically from Wisot. You have an opportunity to raise the standards with your new affiliation from the standpoint of accountability, and conduct. Including Jeff Wisot in such a pursuit would be deeply effect the credibility of your efforts. | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Cult-like Christian Counseling Approach Places Children at Risk The Peggy Mumford Testimony When Peggy Mumford-McGirr started attending the Greater Grace Church of Newark, Delaware in the spring of 2000 she was attracted to the youthful audience she observed in the pews and a refreshing grace message, the last thing she ever expected was to put her children in danger while she was there. Somewhat frustrated by the ridged practices of the Baptist church her family attended, Mumford jumped at the chance to attend Greater Grace when friends invited her to visit. Soon after she called Greater Grace home and faithfully attended two services per week as well as other social events. Her husband Carroll a very successful financial service and insurance executive attended too, and soon after was invited by the Senior Pastor Jeff Wisot to become involved in some of the business and operational functions of the ministry. Mumford recalls, “The idea of Greater Grace was very needed by our family. It was open and welcoming, at times it struck me as a little too west coast California with all the smiling, hugging and love-ya’s but we needed the change.” Marriage In Trouble The spring of 2000 and a move to a new church was also significant because Mumford feared her husband was having an affair. She hoped the new influence of a church would help their marriage. Instead things got worse, and Carroll became increasingly agitated towards the family. Mumford was use to her husband’s long hours, late working nights and drunkenness after entertaining clients. But when the anger and intoxication lead to roughing up her two oldest children, she called the police. With a greater awareness that something might be pushing her husband to the edge, Mumford did some checking and discovered her husband was frequently taking Oxycotin, and was living a secret second life. Peggy Mumford wondered how her husband was able to managed it all, “I found out he was living a double life, with an apartment, a girlfriend, and a baby, all a few miles away. He was a walking time bomb.” | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Angry and scared Mumford turned to her friends who suggested they visit Pastor Wisot and ask for help. In the fall of 2000 with friends by her side, Mumford met with Wisot in a grocery store restaurant. After the meeting Wisot committed to counsel Carroll and try to help. But things got worse, and the violence at home escalated even though Mumford’s husband began spending a lot of time with Wisot. Despite the numerous unresolved issues and increasing abuse, “They became buddies,” Mumford stated. “He’s still living a double life, but now he’s buddies with the pastor.” Mumford’s family and husband operated a very successful insurance agency in Southeast, Pennsylvania and Northern Delaware, with over 3,000 clients. Money flows freely in the Mumford household, and they live in a 5000 square foot home in upper middle class Landenburg, Pennsylvania. Supporting 6 children is not a problem, and Peggy works as a nurse as well as supporting the business. In the winter of 2000 Mumford met with Wisot for several one on one counseling sessions. It became apparent to her that Wisot was beginning to take her husband’s side. He counseled Mumford that she was bringing her husbands behavior on herself, using the biblical examples of how the Shrew and Jezabell, by constantly complaining, caused their husbands to react in immoral ways. At one point Mumford says he asked me, “What did you do to provoke Carroll?” Frustrated and fearing for the safety of her children Mumford finally gives her husband an ultimatum to stop abusing the kids and end the relationship with his girl friend or she’ll file for divorce. Over the next few months Mumford’s husband alternates between living at the apartment and the family home. When he is home the intoxication and physical abuse of the two oldest children escalates even more. The police are called frequently to the family home. Not knowing when her husband is going to show up at the family home in an intoxicated rage, Mumford resorts to keeping camping gear in the back of her SUV and is always ready to evacuate with her 6 children. She recalls the difficulties, “It was still winter and we were camping, some of the places we went weren’t even open, but we camped there anyway.” | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
By April of 2001 Mumford files for divorce, and petitions Chester County, Pennsylvania Court for Emergency Protective Relief. It is granted, and by court order her husband is denied access to the family home and visitation with the children is to be supervised. Mumford’s husband responds by emptying the household checking account and cutting the family off financially. He also frequently violates the protective order. The counseling sessions with Wisot continue, but he never actually counsels Peggy and her husband Carroll together. During Peggy’s individual sessions with Wisot, he tries to convince her to reconcile with her husband. He accuses her of lacking grace and the proper spirit of forgiveness. Wisot refuses to believe Mumford’s concerns for the safety of her children. When presented with the court ordered Emergency Protective Relief, Wisot cuts off contact with Mumford and the counseling sessions end. In tears Mumford describes her last counseling session with Wisot, “Now even my Pastor is mad at me for trying to protect my children, he told me, that, I “defile” him, and not come to his office again.” By the fall of 2001 Mumford’s finances are strained, and she is behind on all her bills including the tuition for the Greater Grace Christian day school that four of her children attend. A series of painful headaches and nausea disable Mumford to the point where she can no longer work. A CAT Scan reveals multiple brain lesions as the cause. Unable to work, her health insurance is eventually cancelled. By December the electricity was cut off in the family home. In the winter of 2002 friends reach out and help Mumford. Darrell and Carol Atkins, the couple that originally invited her to the Greater Grace Church provide food, and temporary housing for some of the children. She receives support from several area food banks including a bank operated by the church. The Atkin’s recall wondering why the church wasn’t providing Mumford more support, and challenged Wisot on the church’s apparent apathy towards the family. “He rebuked us for helping Peggy,” states Darrel Atkins. “And he (Wisot) tried to convince me that Peggy brought on most of her problems out of a lack of obedience to her husband, and because she was involved in a romantic affair with another woman.” Darrell Atkins recalls being stunned by Wisot’s breach of Mumford’s privacy, “Even if the accusation of an affair were true” says Atkins, something Mumford vehemently denies. “The larger issue had become the safety and welfare of Peggy’s children, and it was obvious to me, Jeff Wisot was only taking Carroll Mumford’s word on the family’s situation” Peggy Mumford’s concern over safety expands to the children’s Greater Grace day school after her husband is seen frequently at the church/school property. She presses Wisot for the enforcement of the Protective Order. He responds by refusing to recognize the courts order proclaiming to Mumford, “I don’t need your court order, I can’t keep a man from coming to his church.” | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
She responds by offering to work as a volunteer at the school, so she can be on the property with her children. This is difficult to manage with chronic head aches and constant nausea, but she manages to maintain a presence at the school sacrificing any ability to earn an income. Mumford presents the Protective Order and makes a plea for help to the school principal William Majors. His response is similar to Wisot’s citing that the church and school were not to become involved in a secular judicial matter, his concern was only Holy law. Wisot actually encouraged Mumford’s husband to come to the school after he started paying back tuition. “There was nothing I could do,” she recalled. “My husband was not paying child support, he’s living with another woman, my power was turned off at home, I’m having these massive headaches and can’t work, but the church was taking money from my husband for tuition and ignoring the protective order, as well as his financial obligations to the family.” Wisot also encouraged Mumford’s husband Carroll to return home, “To his rightful place, as the head of the household,” her husband stated more than once to Peggy. In June of 2002 Mumford’s husband showed up unexpectedly at the family home when his oldest daughter Megan is home alone. The beating Megan took landed her in the emergency room and Carroll in jail. “I hold Jeff Wisot personally responsible for that beating Megan took, He encouraged Carroll to return home, despite a protective court order,” Peggy says in regard to that night. Later that summer Mumford’s husband lands in jail 2 more times for violating the protective order. Evacuations to area camp grounds are finally replaced by effective phone calls to the police. “If anything good can come out of Megan’s abuse, it was that the police became very responsive, and we finally started feeling safer at home,” said Mumford. A History of Controversy The Greater Grace Church of Newark, Delaware is a branch of a worldwide church based in Baltimore, Maryland. Headed by Carl Stevens Jr. and originally organized in Lennox, Massachussetts as “The Bible Speaks.” Wisot received his training from Stevens, and his counseling of the Mumford family is consistent with the teachings of Stevens on authoritarian leadership. | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
After attending a Greater Grace church in Tacoma, Washington in the late 1980’s Jeff Wisot drove cross country with his wife and infant daughter to Baltimore, Maryland to attend the ministry’s bible college and seminary. The unaccredited pastoral training of Jeff Wisot begins on the heels of a relocation of the ministry of Carl Stevens from Lennox, Massachusetts to Baltimore. The relocation was caused by the successful multi-million dollar law suit and bankruptcy brought by Betsy Dovydens the heiress of the Dayton Hudson Department Store chain. At the age of 34 Devydens worth $19 million dollars began attending services in Lennox, MA at a church operated by Stevens named The Bible Speaks. (TBS) In a short time, Devydenas became immersed in life at TBS, began taking “bible college” classes, (called college classes, although no actual transferable credits were ever earned) while also attending services and raps several times a week. Over the course of 3 years from 1983 to 1985 Devydenas gave $6.6-million dollars to the ministry, over $5-million without the knowledge of her husband. The court found that Stevens had coerced Devydenas out of the money by lying to her and by manipulating her. A brief of the case written by Ford Greene a California attorney that follows religious court cases, relates the following from court transcripts: The court had no patience for the abuses…and unequivocally condemned them. The law makes a distinction between influence that is “due” and “undue.” … in all close relationships people exert an influence on each other which is natural and proper; such influence is a simple and expected consequence of human friendship and compassion. …any species of coercion, whether it physical, mental or moral, which subverts the sound judgment and genuine desire of the individual is enough to constitute “undue” influence. Green also observes from court testimony that: As Betsy became totally immersed in the church, she increasingly trusted, loved and revered Stevens as her pastor and mentor. She was totally devoted to him and the thought that he would want anything that was not in her best interest never entered her mind. Steven’s was well aware of Betsy’s total devotion to him. He used it. … Stevens abused the trust inherent in such a relationship. For his own financial benefit,…Stevens filled Betsy’s head with suspicion, distrust and fear towards those she had previously always relied. Her husband, family, lawyer, financial advisors, anyone that sought to frustrate her gifts to the church were possessed by demons and doing the work of the Devil…. The character trait most apparent in the relationship between Stevens and Betsy was his total dominion and control over her and her submission in response. How does an heiress give millions of dollars and then have a change of heart and get it back in a law suit? She and her family were able to prove that her giving and trusting nature was taken advantage of by an authoritarian leader, with no accountability. In a 1987 CBS 60-minutes interview with Diane Sawyer, Devydens recalled her experience at TBS, “I think that my desire to find a church made me vulnerable. I had no way of knowing that every little thing they were saying was a lie, was just lie after lie. And I think there is just no way to - to say strongly enough that they are so good at what they do.” There was never a full accounting to the Devydens family for the utilization of the donations, and even a bankruptcy court could not account for over $1.5-million dollars. Mrs. Devydens was able to recapture about $4.5- million from the liquidation of the Lennox properties, and $1-million is still outstanding. TBS through the appellate court was able to reduce the award to $5.5-million, however the Massachusetts supreme court would not hear the case. . | ||
| arguendo Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 757 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.1.194 |
the United States Supreme Court would not hear the appeal | ||
| arguendo Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 758 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.1.194 |
the United States Supreme Court would not hear the appeal | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Shortly after the court appointed a trustee to oversee the finances of the ministry, TBS declared bankruptcy to escape the debt, and moved to Baltimore where it operates a church, day school, and an unaccredited seminary and bible college. This is the ministry that trained and ordained Pastor Jeff Wisot in the early 90’s. This training is also the basis upon which he counseled the Mumford’s marital crisis. Christian scholars such as Dr. Ronald Enroth and Pat Zukeran studying cult tendencies in American Christianity site the highly authoritarian movement of “shepherding and discipleship” as a type of cult Christianity. According to Dr. Enroth, author of the book The Power Abusers: the “delegated authority” leadership model exemplifies how well-intentioned Christian leaders, can bring disunity to the body of Christ and unanticipated bondage to individual believers. It’s a demonstration of how a perfectly biblical concept like authority can go awry. When a “delegated authority” provides counsel to those under him, he speaks with God’s authority. Such a cult tendencies can be recognized in the counseling of Peggy Mumford by Wisot in the Newark, Delaware Greater Grace Church. Wisot, as the delegated authority in the Newark church, believed he had received a special anointing from God and a special authority to counsel the Mumfords. In this type of Christian cult model Wisot’s role is greatly expanded with an expected submission to him. When he speaks, his constituents are to obey and submit to his authority, as if it were Gods authority even if he is wrong. Dr. Enroth recognizes this dynamic when he writes: Two of the classic hallmarks of a Christian cult authoritarianism are “blind loyalty” and “unquestioning obedience.” For Mumford, counseling with a pastor that believed he had a spiritually delegated authority or dominion over her and her family was a nightmare. Fearing for the safety of her children from an abusive philandering husband, addicted on pain killers, Mumford was instructed by Wisot to stay in the marriage. Her husband was being instructed by Wisot to return to his rightful place in the home. In effect, rather than protecting the children and getting her husband the help he needed, Wisot’s counseling set Mumford and her husband on a collision course that ended in the beating of her oldest daughter. Peggy Mumford’s resistance to Wisot counseling was not just a resistance to his ideas, it was challenge to is over all perceived office of authority over her. Mumford crossed the line of Wisot’s authority when she opposed him by obtaining a protective court order against her husband, and then demanded that the church and school enforce it. Wisot’s response to the challenge was to cut off the counseling sessions with Mumford telling her, “You defile me.” | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
More Difficulties By the Fall of 2003 Mumford’s divorce is final, but she still faced the challenges of a single mother, including where to educate her 6 children. “The Heritage Christian Academy,”(the church’s day school) was comfortable for the children and despite Mumford’s strained relationship with Wisot, she enrolls 5 of her children in the church school. “Looking back that was a big mistake,” Mumford admits, “I was trying to maintain some kind of stability for my kids after what we had been through.” Things had settled down a little for Mumford, she was back at work as a registered nurse, and was in the early stages of a new relationship that would eventually lead to another marriage. “I realize when accusations arise in the midst of a marriage conflict, people don’t exactly beat a path to your door with casserole dishes, but my children had many friends at Greater Grace,” Mumford explains to further justify the fall enrollment. Through the next year while attending the Heritage Christian Academy, Mumford’s third oldest daughter Mary Jean, 12 at the time, begins to grow close to the Wisot family. She befriends one of his daughters and frequently socializes in the Wisot household, even making a three week trip to Washington State with the family. Mary Jean is told to consider herself, part of the Wisot family. Eventually she is told by Wisot not to worry if her mother can’t take care of her, they will. After a year of healing the family gets back on course but never really feels comfortable at the school. Mary Jean saw changes, “Things started getting weird at school and my teacher made us stand up and give Pastor Wisot a -standing applause- every morning when he would come to our room to teach the morning bible class.” This was confusing to Mary Jean. “It just didn’t seem right, he wants me to treat him like my father, but then in school we’re giving him these standing ovations every morning.” For Mary Jean and Peggy Mumford the aftermath of the divorce revealed an even darker side to the former abuse at home from her husband. Mumford learns about an incident one night in the family home when her husband entered Mary Jean’s room after she has gone to bed. The incident was described by one of Mary Jean’s friends who happened to be in the room that night on a sleep over. “He shouldn’t have been touching her like that,” Mary Jean’s friend told her mother well over a year after the incident. Mumford is horrified by the news, and it is apparent that there was even more about her ex-husband’s behavior that she didn’t know. She learns from Mary Jean that the sexual abuse observed by the friend was actually a scenario repeated by her father frequently. It’s difficult for Mary Jean, but she is now able to relate to her mother what life was like for her when she spent time with her father. “He treated me like his girlfriend,” recalls Mary Jean confirming the nature of the repeated abuse by her father. Not sure what to do next Mumford turns yet again to Wisot and the church for help. But repeated phone calls requesting a meeting with Wisot are unreturned. Finally, Mumford is able approach Wisot in the school parking lot. Upon learning that Carroll Mumford had sexually abused Mary Jean, Wisot questioned Peggy, “How can you do this?” A question that accused Mumford of fabricating the whole story. | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
She convinces Wisot to have a one on one meeting with Mary Jean to discuss what happened with her father, and after hearing directly from Mary Jean about the sexual abuse, Wisot’s also questioned Mary Jean, “Did your mother tell you to say these things about your father,” he asked. “From that point on I knew I could no longer trust him,” Mary Jean plainly states. And shortly after that meeting Peggy Mumford withdraws all her children from the school, and all contact with the church is terminated. As far as Mumford knows, Wisot never acted on the sexual abuse outlined to him by Mary Jean. And since her one on one meeting and departure from the school, Mary Jean has had minimal contact with the Wisot family. When speaking about her relationship with her father and Wisot, Mary Jean displays a remarkable lack of anger or bitterness from the difficulties. Asked to describe her explanation of why she thinks Wisot didn’t believe her about the abuse, and she is equally stoic, “I can only think of two reasons why Pastor Wisot would protect an abuser: One, he is an abuser himself, or two, he only wants his church to look picture perfect.” Perhaps Mary Jean has more insight than she realizes. Experts in church development such as Rick Warren, author of two best selling books, The Purpose Driven Church and The Purpose Driven Life identify pastoral leadership as a key in church development. In a word written directly to pastors in The Purpose Driven Church, Warren writes: If God has called you to ministry, then who and what you are must be a part of the plan. You don’t minister in spite of yourself, but through the personality God gave you…There are two principles to remember when seeking to discern God’s direction for your ministry. You’ll best reach those you relate to…Second, as a leader you’ll attract who you are, not what you want | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen in their book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse identify “The Can’t Talk Rule” as one of the key elements in identifying an abusive Christian leadership style. The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is what we have already termed the “can’t talk” rule. The “can’t talk” has this thinking behind it; The real problem cannot be exposed because then it would look bad and have to be dealt with…so it must be protected behind walls of silence (neglect) or by assault. If you speak about a problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be eliminated or discredited. …The “can’t talk” rule, however, blames the person who talks, and the ensuing punishments pressures the questioner into silence. …The problem is not that your boundaries were crossed and violated, (sexual or physical abuse) the problem is you talked. If you would not have made such a big deal, everything would still be fine. …The real problem, however, is that if a Christian who is violated stops talking, then the perpetrator will never be held accountable for his behavior. …Sadly there are many women who suffer spiritual, physical or sexual abuse and are called “unsubmissive,” “too strong” or a “Jezebel” for exposing abusive Christian males. The counseling Peggy Mumford received from Jeff Wisot during a difficult family crisis is unexplainable. It could be a result of an incompetent counseling failure, inherent to the modeling of Carl Steven’s Christian cult system of delegated authority. It could simply be discernment lead astray by greed, and the hope of big financial donation from Peggy’s Mumford’s wealthy husband. Or maybe an abusive spiritual system pursuing the picture perfect church, would simply not permit the disclosure and correction of Carroll Mumford’s philandering and abuse of his children. Whatever the case, one thing is certain to Peggy Mumford and her children. There is the Pastor Jeff Wisot his church constituents see from the pulpit and at events, a picture of perfection, one readily able to quote numerous bible verses on any issue from a position of authority. There is the Greater Grace Church with its youthful vibrancy, and grace message, which makes an attractive first impression. And then there is the Pastor Jeff Wisot and the church touched by the Mumford family, one apparently unwilling to protect children, and impotent when faced with a difficult interpersonal problem. Peggy Mumford didn’t want perfection, she was just hoping for some compassion, and help in protecting her children. Instead her authoritarian pastor chose to protect Peggy’s philandering, and abusive husband, a counseling performance that put her children at physical and sexual risk. Peggy Mumford doesn’t need to read Enroth, Warren, or Johnson’s and VanVonderen’s books to understand Wisot. She lived it, and the contrast is clear. “As a result standing up to protect my children, I defile Jeff Wisot,” Peggy simply states, and apparently her husband didn’t. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 114 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
His response was not much different when he was made aware of "alleged" child molestation in his school by more than one parent. It was covered, the victims were slandered and silenced, and the perpetrators had free roam. The really sickening part is, at least 2 of the child predators stayed until Wisot made THEM sick by his actions. That is pretty damn bad that his low was too low for them. | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Twenty five years of helping cult victims has thoroughly convinced me that the wrongdoing by destructive cults will stop ONLY when ALL profit is removed from that wrongdoing by holding the cult’s top executives PERSONALLY accountable before the law! If you or a loved one has been harmed by a cult, get a lawyer and sue the cult’s senior executives today. They are ultimately responsible for the harm that the cult has caused you and your loved ones. borrowed from article on homepage of factnets founder. Good article, good advise | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 376 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I remember when tbs moved to Baltimore and became ggwo. Chs pretended poverty and moved to an apartment. Some of the body members who had means helped buy the house in Fallston for him. I write this because I either never knew or have forgotten that 1.5 million of Betsy's gifts were unaccounted for. Does anyone know more about that? It looks like an opportunity was missed to hold chs accountable to the law. If chs was somehow able to personally receive this money, imagine how big a conspiracy it took to do it. The money had to come into the church through official channels. The bookkeepers, comptroller and perhaps the trustees had to be in on it. The money had to be laundered in that it had to appear to have gone to legitimate church related expenses and activities and eventually find its way back to chs' personal control. Uncovering such a scheme could have prevented gg from starting up in the first place. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1778 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
apparently there was a conversation between CHS and Wisot where CHS asks Wisot if he has anything put away "in case" something should happen. Wisot says, "I've got a million put away" to which CHS responds, "Good, I've got two." | ||
| anon_brief Advanced Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.76 |
LMAO, your theory is correct regarding large donations, BUT there are large amounts of money that come in to churches (and other businesses) as small cash donations (or payments). I would think that cash skimming would be fairly easy and involve fewer people. | ||
| dancer2 Intermediate Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 178 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.129 |
Seems like there's 3 major sustained charges against Wisot here: - Not critically evaluating the character of major donors and other VIPs, and taking their word against that of their victims. - Building a personal support system of yes men and groupies. - Running a building fund program with egotistical stupidity. I don't know Wisot from Adam. William Majors is the only familiar name in this sordid tale. Yet much of it does sound par for the course. The jump from there to embezzlement, though, I'd take with care. As in the "rebuilding of Iraq," a lack of accountability has resulted in literally tons of money being lost, but to say that it has lined the pockets of those in charge is not a charge to be leveled lightly. What are the sources for these talks of "contingency plans"? | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
A few years ago, with the threat of a publicly "embarrassing" lawsuit hanging over his head, CHS decided to settle out of court rather than face public scrutiny. (Jim F. can fill in the details). Apparently, he knew he could stonewall "disgruntled former members" but didn't want a repeat of the Doveydenas trial. Suddenly, a church that was always taking offerings just to meet the monthly budget was able to pony up $450,000, apparently without missing a beat. Indications are that save for one or two, none of those supposedly in oversight positions (trustees and elders) were even aware of this until long after the fact. Where did $450,000 materialize from, save for some rainy day slush fund? | ||
| vincer Member Username: vincer Post Number: 69 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.10 |
Hero of the Stupid Dog and Pony Show 3 towers of babble Mini Me Brandt Russel and his stupid my space account Joe crotchnicks | ||
| vincer Member Username: vincer Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.10 |
Oh, that was just some of the Special names for the LCC elders. My personal fave- Big Jim and the Twins | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
I vote for big Jim and the twins..also my personal favorite. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
As frequent visitors to this site will notice, we've recently changed our name from Mayor Gracia to Monte de la Gracia (Mount Grace in English). This article will outline the events leading up to the name change and my own personal thinking on those events. Mayor Gracia en Argentina has been since 1995 a voluntary affiliate of Greater Grace World Outreach. When in late 2003 and early 2004 it began to become apparent to me that there were some serious problems within Greater Grace in the form of doctrinal error that contributed to administrative abuse, I embarked on a more than 2 year journey of searching the scriptures and my own heart, as well as engaging in dialogue with others who had in the past seen the problems and severed ties with GGWO or who were currently in the process of doing so. That road was one of the most difficult that I have ever had to travel and involved many sleepless nights and much prayer for God's leading. By early in 2005, I was sure that God had shown me that in order to honor Him I needed to sever ties with GGWO, however the specifics were not defined until somewhat later. In February of that year, there was a series of meetings held at the Sandy Cove Convention Center near Baltimore, Maryland, for the purpose of trying to bring needed reform to GGWO. Although I believed prior to attending that the meetings would fail in accomplishing that purpose (they did), I attended and was given confirmation with respect to my severing ties. In early April, a letter was sent by Pastor Tom Schaller to all of the then affiliated pastors who had attended the Sandy Cove meetings. That letter served as the basis for my letter of disaffiliation with the Baltimore ministry. Since the initial meetings at Sandy Cove had been a failure in bringing reform, a second set of meetings took place in Chicago in mid May for the purpose of establishing a new affiliation which would ultimately be named International Association of Grace Ministries, and which was for those who had broken ties with GGWO. I also attended and participated in those meetings and was further convinced that there would be no immediate changes forthcoming in the ministry with which I had recently severed ties. At that time, there was an intent to affiliate which was signed by roughly 50 ex GGWO pastors, myself included. As a result of that final and failed attempt at restoration with the Baltimore church, a final set of meetings was planned for mid June, again at the Sandy Cove Convention center. I attended those meetings with the hope of being able to help establish an organization that would make the needed changes in doctrine and practice from what had been the GGWO norm, and which would make it a priority to win acceptance by the Evangelical Christian community through openly admitting and repenting of complicity in the abuses that had taken place over the course of 35 years. While that most assuredly is a bitter pill to swallow, my belief was and continues to be that as a Christian leader charged by God, repentance must be the first step to restoration and reconciliation. While I may not have played an active role in slandering, maligning, marking, and shunning other believers, I most assuredly was guilty of passive acceptance of those practices without ever hearing those individuals tell their side of the story. I believe that it is the responsibility of every Christian leader to constantly be searching for truth, and that includes the truth concerning a failed ministry that he may have been part of. It is not an issue of crusading against that failed ministry, rather an issue of identifying it’s errors for the sake of not repeating them. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Unfortunately at the present time I am not in agreement with the methodology whereby IAGM is pursuing its desired reform. While I wholeheartedly believe that the men involved in that organization honestly want reform, transparency, accountability, and acceptance by the Evangelical community, I personally have felt the need to step aside from its formation for at least the time being. That decision is based as much on my recognition that I have a very dogmatic stand on some issues that could become divisive as it a decision based on my disagreement with IAGM’s approach. The following list of documents are those which were used at the Sandy Cove and Chicago meetings, along with my own written statements concerning the course of events. They are placed here only for the sake of those who may wish to know a fuller background of what led to my decision to leave GGWO. They are listed in chronological order and some of the thoughts expressed in earlier documents are not necessarily still an accurate portrayal of my current thoughts on some issues. For any who may wish to contact me personally, my email address is rwwood at montedelagracia dot org. 1. Initial communication to Baltimore elders that was sent to one of them in May of 2004 but which was never delivered to all. 2. Sandy Cove 1 & 2 and Chicago documents (These cover the time span from February, 2005 to June, 2005) 3. Long rebuttal to Tom Schaller's letter to the affiliates, but which was not sent due to my feeling that it would not be read. 4. Condensed version of my response to Tom Schaller's letter to the affiliates which was sent and received by him in mid April, 2005. 5. Our statement to the church in Argentina which was read at the end of a service in mid May, 2005. 6. Statement intended to be read during Chicago meetings in mid May, 2005, but for which the opportunity did not present itself. Some of the material was addressed by myself or others at those meetings. 7. "Why I Am Not Afraid of Having No Affiliation" - mid May, 2005 8. Withdrawal of application for membership in IAGM sent to and received by Board of Representatives and Administrator in late September, 2005. Addendum: Since posting the above, I've continued to watch events as they have unfolded and recently wrote the following document to try to outline my thoughts since the events of one year ago. It was written on June 17th, 2006. Dangerous Parallels . Thanks, Derreck derreck_sargent@hotmail.com 443-850-9024 | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 119 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
Dangerous Parallels As I have over the last two years considered the problems that have recently caused many men, including myself, to sever ties with GGWO, and as I have also sought God’s mind for the reason that those problems were allowed to get to the point that they brought about the division that was caused, I have begun to realize that there are some dangerous parallels with what I see happening in IAGM. It was the formation of those parallels that early on brought about my decision to “wait and see” how IAGM actually conducted itself before I would decide to be a member. Herein follows a list of what I perceive some of those parallels to be. It will come as no surprise to me if the list is deemed to be nothing more than the ramblings of someone who has always been on the fringe, and perhaps that fact in itself belongs on the list as one of the parallels; the idea that “we don’t need to listen to that negativity.” It would behoove those who may have that attitude to consider how much of the Bible is “negative” in the sense that it is God, through His prophets and apostles, addressing problems and in many instances with a very stern approach. Do we somehow believe that the church at the end of it’s history is less in need of correction than it was at it’s inception? I think not. I think that the voice that is sorely missing in the Christian community today is the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, “Repent, for the day of the Lord is at hand.” I do not in any way profess to be a prophet, but there is a need for us, as men and women of God, to recognize that the word of God is profitable, not only for doctrine, but for reproof, correction, and instruction. Here then is the list. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
1.There was a negation of the need for outside objective and constructive criticism by the ministry we left, at least as early as 1979, when the report written by Walter Martin was portrayed as negative and evil.The parallel is that, when it was suggested by more than one IAGM member that we allow an outside Christian organization to give input on the set up of the new organization and to suggest guidelines to avoid falling into the snares of our past affiliation, there was an immediate defense, very similar to the one from the Martin days, that took the form of, “We’re not guilty of those practices.” Nevertheless, 1 Corinthians 15:33 says “Do not be deceived: Evil company corrupts good habits.” We cannot have spent 25 years in company with errant teaching and practice without having our own teaching and practice corrupted by it. A “closed door accountability” is, in fact, no accountability at all. If Christians really believe that they have nothing to be ashamed of or to defend, then they should have nothing to hide and should welcome input from other proven ministries. If we do not adopt that attitude, we have already given ourselves the appearance of not caring whether or not we are accepted by mainstream Christianity, and while no group is without it’s own areas that may be in need of improving, it will be through the humility of accepting the input of others that we will in turn be given the opportunity to give input. Failing in this will leave us in danger of having a log in our own eye as we try to remove the speck from our brother’s eye. 2. There was never a means of airing grievances without being labeled as a troublemaker, divisive, and not “one with the vision.” The same mentality prevails when serious objections to practices are raised by the membership and the leaders essentially respond with, “We will do what’s best for the organization, or worse yet, do not respond at all.” IAGM is no more a member run organization than was GGWO. To a certain extent, that may be the fault of the members for not having been more vocal from the outset, yet on closer examination, that is exactly the circumstance that allowed a totalitarian government under GGWO: too little willingness to stand up and shout, “That’s not the way this church should conduct it’s business.” I have gained a new appreciation for the integrity of the apostle Paul, who in Galatians 2 withstood Peter to his face in front of the entire assembled body of believers, including the other Jews from Jerusalem. We applaud the apostle Paul while we simply shut up and refuse to speak. That conduct brought the demise of GGWO and it will do the same to IAGM. There should be no one’s voice who we wish to hear as much as we wish to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to our own hearts. No church or Christian organization belongs more to one or to a group of individuals than it does to every other individual. While we respect the voice of experience, we have a higher respect for the fact that the church belongs to every believer. If every believer in a local church or every member in an organization is not actively involved, then that church or organization cannot but be unhealthy. 3. Dissenters were marked. They continue to be, albeit at this stage more subtly. We live at a time in history when healthy debate has been all but outlawed. People do not have a capacity to have their actions and attitudes challenged without reacting and becoming defensive and self justifying. People are more interested in being right than in pursuing the truth, and if my motive is to prove I’m right, I’ll take cheap shots at any and all who disagree, whereas if my motive is the pursuit of truth, while I may not agree with my opponent, I will listen and consider him. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
The whole marking issue is the result of small minded insecurity, and even when it’s done in what is supposedly a good natured way, the intent is unchanged. 3. “Home base” became more important than the local church and more able to train and disciple people than the local church could. That mentality resulted in the decimation of the ranks of the affiliated churches and was one of the key points of contention when we met at Sandy Cove. Yet in less than one year of it’s inception, IAGM has embarked on a similar course. There are reports that the Bible College in Tacoma will become part of IAGM, and the Tacoma ministry is already synonymous with IAGM and is considered it’s headquarters. Unfortunately, too many IAGM members prefer the status quo, and for many the idea of a home base is more convenient than being a responsible member of an association. Is it any wonder in a country where only 40% or less of the population vote in major elections? I know of no other group that practices bringing students from foreign countries to the United States for training. The temptation to stay in “the Land of Plenty” is too great, and in many cases, the small churches that sent their people to “Home Base” do so to their own detriment because it is those very people who allow the church to prosper. If the desire really is for those key people in other local churches to be well trained, let the “Home Base” undertake to raise finances so that those individuals can study via an increasing number of good and sound Bible Colleges and seminaries that offer classes via the Internet. In reality, it is more of the isolationist mentality that produces leaders who have had only teaching from one facet of Christianity. The credentials of the faculty of a bona fide Bible College should not be cookie cutter look alikes with every instructor having received his training in the same 1 or two schools, yet that is exactly what we saw in GGWO, and I fear it is what we will see in IAGM. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
5. Stated policy was not practiced policy. We were told that the pastor never touched the money and that staff was not allowed to be alone with a woman not his wife and that there was a functioning board of elders, but we now know that in practice, those things were violated wholesale. The parallel is that, under the new association, the Board of “Representatives” has already begun to make their own policy and to vote on key issues with less than a quorum present. They have not sought to involve the membership, just as the membership has not sought to be involved. The result: an organization that is run from the top down, the top being those individuals who have garnered a name for themselves under the old regime. It is the hierarchical system that we opposed at Sandy Cove all over again. In my opinion, IAGM will do one of two things: It will become another small unimportant splinter group that is never accepted by mainstream Christianity and that will forever function under a cloud of doubt and suspicion by those who know the history that the organization is afraid to confront and deal with, or it will simply cease to exist because there has been too much fallout from the former organization and the membership, not having fully come to grips with what is needed, will simply disperse, not wanting to be part of another abusive group. Either end would be unfortunate, nevertheless, the fact remains that history is doomed to repeat itself where its lessons are not studied and learned. RW Wood Mr Wisot received his training here, and has indeed opened a cookie cutter "bible college" Mr Wisot also flip flopped between IAGM and remaining in GGWO. As of Convention of 05 he announced he was standing by carl stevens and GGWO, I believe in part because of the the 100 or so calls IAGM received in reference to Mr Wisots lack of acountability, his marking and shunning and marking those that dared to question, his totalitarian authority, alleged cover up of child abuse and the list goes on and on. They could not hope to make a new begining with this stain. As the spot light on GGWO got brighter, partly due to outcries from former GG Delaware members, there were several investigations started. As Wisot tried to distance himself from the negative light, GG was once again getting a new name...Life Community. Talk about Parallels. Carl Bilked an heiress out of her money...Jeff Bilked Widows out of their money. As many started to discern Carl, he marked and slandered the loudest and changed the name of his cult from TBS to GGWO. As 100 discerned Jeff, he marked and shunned the loudest and changed his name from GG to Life community. Carl Opened his own Bible college and pumped out yes men to pay for his costly life style. Jeff Opened a non accredited Bible college that pumps out yes men to keep him comfortable in his life style. God gives us the gift of discernment. If you think something just isnt right, please, for your familys sake, act on it, search for answers, Do not accept being told "factnet is an evil report" "those people are sowers of discord" trust me, we all have better things to do than make up "evil lies about a pastor with a heart of gold" These are not lies from the enemy, You will not get " a root of bitterness" or "cockatrice eggs" by researching what your heart already knows. Go through this site, visit links listed on this site. Above all,PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1834 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
I vote for big Jim and the twins..also my personal favorite. Sounds like a 'pet' name for male genitalia. | ||
| chaz Member Username: chaz Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
It is pretty much what comes to mind when you see Carl Jr(jeffy) and his 2 side kicks strutting about. The 3 stooges also comes to mind, except they weren't malicious or evil, just stupid. | ||
| isabella Advanced Member Username: isabella Post Number: 735 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.143.230 |
Wisot sounds just like all the others. Whenever I read about him, I think of this guy in Saugus, Rick LeClair (check spell). Using the Love of God for their own purposes, is the only talent they have. They love money....It doesn't bother them to gather their wealth off of other people's labor...pretty good scam, when you think about it. No payroll, no taxes, no health care....speaking of which, does anyone on here know about the finances in Saugus? For example, where did they get the money to buy that property? How much did they get, when they sold the old 'Gospel Hall'?, How much did they pay for Gospel Hall?, Who paid? LeClair is a contractor. Does he donate the labor? Does he make a profit? How much? Anyone know any of the details regarding the finances? | ||
| sofree Member Username: sofree Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
cordell..hahah...it IS! | ||
| kupski Member Username: kupski Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.99.106.140 |
all I can is watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
LOL I atually wrote to the guy who's name is listed as the director and asked him if he attended GGWO. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 124 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
GGWO May 19, 1987 Bankruptcy Court decision May 20-24, 1987 various articles about the trial in the Boston Globe May 31, 1987 60 Minutes piece Tuesday, June 2, 1987 Carl Stevens resigns from TBS (first name change) Friday, June 5, 1987 Judge Queenan appoints a federal trustee to run TBS Sunday, June 7, 1987 last church service at Lenox July, 1987 GGWO incorporated in Maryland Hodeuon There seems to be a pattern | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3890 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.46 |
I wonder if some of these guys even believe what they teach? They teach that God will discipline us if we are committing sin.Do they not expect His hand to touch them for their incessant resistance to being corrected according to biblical directives given us in scripture? How was it put? 1.Rebuke. 2.Chastening. 3.Scourging. 4.Death. According to their teaching,leadership is going to die. After all they still resist repentance,acknowledgement and correction. Maybe they should be in fear for their lives because they are held accountable for everything that they teach from the pulpits of GGWO. So, they must worry about all the slandering and maligning and abuse and manipulation and etc ad nauseum that they themselves engage in. Then there is the lying to CYA. Too much math for me, but you get the idea. } | ||
| sidethorn Senior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 1070 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.133.148 |
I seriously doubt these guys believe quite a bit about what they teach. Their own actions against people who leave GGWO, or confront them with the truth proves they are not worried about God judging them like they preach God would judge them for speaking up about GGWO and them as leaders of GGWO. They're preaching all this stuff about divine judgement falling upon people who speak against GGWO, leave GGWO, etc. to keep as many people under their control as possible using fear. Fear that God will get you for not submitting to them totally and staying in "the ministry". All a bunch of lies!!! Just like Carl Stevens getting God to inflict five men with cancer for speaking against him. All a bunch of lies!!! These men want to get into peoples' heads to control them and use them. They'll do anything to keep people under their thumbs including decieving people into thinking people will be judged by God for not staying under their thumbs and in total submission to them. These men live by their own standard while they have a very heavy burdening one for those around them. They are complete hypocrites!!! They like being in control and using people for their own pleasures. They pushed God out the door along with God's servants who told them the truth over and over again to repent and let God run things. They don't want God's way, they want their own and nothing else. They don't want correction because they don't want to change. Otherwise they might have to give up some pleasures and actually become servants of God's people which is something real pastors would do. I guess they would rather not be real pastors or shephards, but users and abusers of the sheep instead. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3894 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.45.99 |
I am made to think of , Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Sound about right? } | ||
| sidethorn Senior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 1071 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.133.148 |
Most definately!!! GGWO has been about the commandments of men like Carl Stevens and now Tom Schaller. Lots of extra commandments like stay with your GGWO pastor-teacher for the rest of your life, come to three services a week, EVERY week, always let your pastor think for you, never question anything, never speak out about anything, etc. etc. etc. Then there's all the other false doctrines of men like geographical will, delegated authority, and pastor will present you to Christ at the Bema Seat. GGWO is all talk without the action to back it up. They speak many words but its all in vain for them. Their own actions prove how far their hearts are from God. So all their efforts to build a man made religeous kingdom for the service of a self centered inner circle are in vain in the long run!! | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
Interesting that Wisot no longer has a website for his "church." What is he AFRAID of???Interesting his bricks for his $35,000 sign were "stolen." Interesting someone threw a brick through the church window during church service recently, shattering the window (sort of like a modern day turning over of the tables by Jesus Himself). Interesting he asked a couple to leave his church when they approached him with doctrinal differences - recently. Interesting his long time secretary saw the Light and left. Hmmmm...how much longer before S.L. leaves? When we were there it was taught God blessed those who served Him. When bad things happened it was taught there must be sin...God must not be pleased...God's discipline...I am wondering what their teaching is on their latest downfalls? | ||
| dancer New member Username: dancer Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.42.225.79 |
"During church service". Man somebody has some guts and is a bit crazy. Love to see that on tape. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
You and me both! And Wisot's face... | ||
| dancer New member Username: dancer Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.42.225.79 |
Heck I pay money. Had to pbe somebody with a camera. Its worth money. I say $100 at least. A video on the internet, heck it be worth a thousand. If my video's can pull hits than that could pull a zillion. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
A young man dies in a car accident. A benefit is held in his honor - by his mother - at Greater Grace Church (now Life Community Church) to raise money for a scholarship for HCA students in her dead son's precious name. $8,000 is raised. The school closes very soon after. The scholarship - never used. The grieving mother goes to "Pastor" Jeff Wisot to get the money back once she heard the school closed. She was told "the man who handled the school finances left the church and there was no getting the money back." I worked for Wisot. The money was not handled by the man he mentioned. At the time the school closed down, it was all handled by one person. Not the man Wisot put the blame on. If Wisot had any integrity he would give every penny back to that poor mother. Shame on you Jeffrey Michael Wisot! | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
By the way - the new website - http://www.lccde.org/ Check out the history page and see how they try to explain away - lie away - the new name change.. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
That is not how it works unless the mother gave the money. Perhaps the money should be offered back to those who gave it. The money was never intended to directly benefit the mother. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
She didn't want it back for herself personally. She is well-off financially. She wanted a scholarship in his name. HCA/GG never used the money for the scholarship it was intended for. There is no $8,000. They spent it on other things. That is fraud. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I was only responding to the information you provided. You called her "that poor mother". Nevertheless the fraud was against those who gave the money and unless she is has the permission of those who gave the money (in other words, she is representing them) or she was the legal trustee of the fund, it is none of her business. The bottom line is that it is up to those who gave the money to pursue it. The church's or school's trustees are the ones legally accountable for the finances. They are responsible to handle the churches money properly regardless of any pastor's influence or decisions. | ||
| arguendo New member Username: arguendo Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.255.152.29 |
I see. And you're licensed to practice law in the state of Maryland? I have to say it is just wonderful how you always step up to the plate to defend GGWO and dismiss the concerns of anyone negatively impacted by GGWO, especially if they are women. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Hi Arguendo, While I appreciate your opinion of me, I would much rather know your opinion of the subject being discussed. Thanks. | ||
| lmao New member Username: lmao Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I used to be a trustee at a church (not gg) in Maryland and therefore learned what the duties and responsibilities were. It's not an honorary position. I also know a man who was a former trustee of Wisot's church in Delaware. It is on that basis that I believe his church had a board of trustees. Topics like this interest me and I apologize if my tone seemed harsh or cruel towards so-free or towards a mother who lost a child. It was not intended. I agree with sofree that it was wrong for the church to keep the money assuming that it was clearly understood what the money was to be used for. peace | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 125 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Hey everybody I'm visiting Maryland soon. Can't wait to see some of you! Life justs gets better everyday! | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
lmao... it was fraud and not the first time. He has scammed many out of their money, time and time again. In this particular case the money raised came from his own church family. I worked there and had tuition taken out of my check monthly. It was supposed to go to the school. It never did. They just didn't want to pay me what I asked for. They told me the money that "came out of my check was being deposited into the school account." It wasn't. There was a board of trustees but they had no real power or say. They all left due to serious integrity issues financially in the ministry - well with Wisot. Wisot controlled everything. Recently a church leader left there because Wisot was asking the congregation to pay for a $35,000 church sign with bling - when they couldn't even afford to pay their electric bill. This guy was a finance guy who approached Wisot about the sign issue. It fell on deaf ears. He left. Wisot wants an empire. Plain and simple. No need to apologize. Through all this I have come to not really care what people say or think. I know what I know, and the fact is, Wisot is a spiritual phony no matter what the legalities state}...he is a con artist to the bone. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
this church isn't in md, and financial fraud along these lines is federal not just local. It is crossing state lines. Whom has jurisdictions in multiple states. Jeff will dig in again...He's had so many outs its unreal. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
There are some people in Delaware who might want to contact me. I am not interested in doing public discussions here or even email. You can call me. 734---778-4564. Don't block your number I won't take the call. I am sure this wil be hotter than hell in a day or two. But the games played by some folks on somebody are so low I expect a person to play just as ugly. I won't play that way for a lot of reasons but I am betting somebody is going to hurt a lot of people. They should have left people alone. | ||
| louise_connolly New member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.184.177.173 |
I think it is a stretch to think anyone wants to contact you. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Dear, Let me get this straight. Baltimore Sun Article,, The Eagle Story, and the few hundreds of hours speaking to law enforcement and everybody from CHS himself to Jeff Wisot to some of the souls who got hurt the worst at GGWO and you think its a stretch anybody would want to call me over a kid being blackmailed and pornos, nudes and sex story backed up by three elders now?. If it wasn't so sad I laugh my head off. I'm going to bed. I'll roll the dice. Its not my problem as much as it is somebody else's. See I am •••••• because they messed with somebody who did nothing wrong. Extorting me or somebody else pretty lame. I mean to the point of sending to a person in black and white in an email? It wad forwarded from an email I sent to a person at GGWO, to a person in Delaware, to a person in Maryland to Michigan. Geez even this dumb it boy can read an email header. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
Two of Wisot's finest disciples: Father of six charged with failing to pay $139K in child support. By ALAN J. MCCOMBS, THE NEWS JOURNAL Posted Monday, August 6, 2007 at 6:38 pm A man accused of failing to pay more than $139,000 in child support was arrested on Monday. Carroll Mumford, of Newark, was arrested at roughly 1 p.m. by a task force composed of U.S. Marshals and local police, said Chief Deputy U.S. Marshal Richard Long. Mumford, 46, is a father of six, who owes $139,184 in child support, according to the Delaware Division of Child Support Enforcement. Task force officers arrested Mumford at a residence in the unit block of Scotch Pine Road in the Evergreen Section of Newark where he was taken to the New Castle County Sheriffs Office for processing and arraignment. Authorities also arrested two other residents of the home who were wanted on other crimes. Edward Braun, 43, was charged with violation of probation and Albert Baldwin, 31, was charged with failure to re-register as a sex offender in Delaware. Contact Alan J. McCombs at 324-2890 or at amccombs@delawareonline.com | ||
| sidethorn Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.252.4.21 |
Such fine moral citizens that set such a fine example!!!! | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Geez Peggy must be happy as hell. Then again she is bound never to see a penny from him now. How bizarre he got caught with whom he got caught with. Thats a trip. 140k in child support, damn! I got nervous of mine being high and its not even close to 1/12th of that and I have 6 kids. 140k. Wow! Thats a lot of money. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
I honestly thought Mumford left the Delaware church over 4 years ago? He has been going there sofree? Is he really so pathetic? Or you just callling a disciple because he went there? | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
Mumford left but he was one Wisot was trying to take under his wing (money ya know). Braun, I believe, was still going there. I don't know the other guy. | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
bump | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 148 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Ironically the story in the Delaware paper became so bloated it never went to press. Whats believable? | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
"Ironically"??? You sound like Wisot himself. Actually, it is going to press. It is taking a lot longer because every story has to be thorougly investigated. As of yesterday, The News Journal has confirmed there WILL be a story. Why are you a GG supporter now? GG/De is a part of the same monster -GGWO -that destroyed you and your family. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
Dancer - I just re-read your post: Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 6:45 pm. You are an idiot. | ||
| anon_brief New member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
bump | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 15.227.137.70 |
How the hell am I an idiot because I mentioned he doesn't go there. That was my understanding. If he goes there than he is indeed a disciple of Jeff. But if he left there when others left there how do you put the two together. IN THOUGHT PROCESS? OR THEY ACT THE SAME? I'LL SAY THIS AGAIN: What makes Peggy's ex a disciple of Jeff. Some of you left after him, does that make you a disciple of Jeff? God I pray not. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 151 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
I know only one person on all of factnet that has a case that involves things to do with GGWOO coming up. Just one person in all of factnet. Not a soul here will help her and not a soul wil ever care. A kid who was abused for years now gets to be hurt some more and trust me, not a single soul on this list could care. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
dancer - You are an idiot because you play the same twisted mind games as GG, especially in the way you use your words in communication. You do not live in Delaware. You never went to Delaware. Why comment on things you know nothing of? We were all disciples of GG leadership whether you like it or not. You are lashing out because you have a problem with Peggy. Period. How would you feel if someone said all you went through was blown out of proportion, excuse me, should I say - BLOATED?? Braun was a puppy dog of Wisot's, as was C. Mumford. Wisot took the side of an abuser - Mumford (and many more) - in more ways than one - blatantly, silently, and in an evil manner. Wisot will always take the side of the man. What is your role in puppyhood under Wisot? Why the heck would you ever take the defense of him? He is a disciple of GGWO. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
"You never went to Delaware" Huh I stayed weeks in Delaware. I spent hundreds of hours on the phone with the law enforcement in Delaware. When the refused to open a case it was my legal brief that had them reopen the case. I spent hour after hour on the phone with Gary. I spent hour after hour on the phone with his editorial staff. His editors told me bluntly they were going to publish a story around January. When I went back and asked Gary he seemed to have trouble with facts. Like 3 ladies who had worked at the place seem to have their facts in order and 1 person who did not work there seem to have some stories that did not line up. Because I went to GGWO I am not going to say I am a disciple of GGWO. Thats crazy. Jeff seems as messed up as the next guy. You will not get a defense out of me for Jeff other than I am not going to sit here and call him an ax murderer if he didn't do it, just to get it in the newspaper. It does an amazing bad testimony to go around claiming everybody is a sexual pervert and everybody is a thief, and everybody who lives or went to that church is a disciple of Jeff Wisot. If 10% of what I hear is true from people about the church there it should have its doors closed. But to embellish stories to do it will backfire., I do not mark people, and stop talking to people like GGWO. That is its first line of communication technique. Peggy fits perfectly in that catagory. She gets mad and all she knows how to do is go on some off the wall freak speech or ignore the obvious. If Jeff is 1/10 as bas all of you say than get the damn story published. I never had much trouble getting the Sun to do it, or The Berkshire Eagle, and it appears there is more corruption than meets the eye in Delaware. I seen plenty of evidence. What gives? I sure don't believe its fear on the part of those who worked there. I don't think Gary Soulsman lies to me. I go to court in 10 days with a cloud of GGWO over me. I have a kid fighting for her children with GGWO interfering and Peggy has a hand on the same side with GGWO(her friends are GGWOin that fight against the young mother). Trust me a newspaper article is lightweight to that kind of stuff. Call the editor everyday and ask them what is going on. If that don't work seek out a newspaper that will print the story. I refuse to believe if the story is that good DNJ is not publishing it because of lack of evidence, they most likely don't want to hear a bunch of bs back into their editorial existence about false statements. Every line in the Sun artlce can be backed up, and every line in the Berkshire Eagle can be backed up. There some hot things in Gary's hands like affairs of people that can be backed up by former staff members. I took Gary straight to the source on that. If you want to change the situation there, I would recommend picking people who really want things published and shown in the light. Not fluff that does nothing. Saying he is a bad bad man does nothing for the end. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
I would praise God if there was a printed story on the church in Delaware. I simply don't like the idea that Peggy and Tom have got in bed with people from GGWO and act like they are against GGWO in the same breath. The Schallers, The Odaharas, are not people who would want to do anything but help destroy my family. They are actively involved in it now. Recently. In the last few weeks they have communicated how to stir up trouble for people I love by making false accusations, including threatening somebody with their kids. I want no part of that world. Call them your friends. I say they are dangerous. | ||
| sofree New member Username: sofree Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.49.86.205 |
"You never went to Delaware" - as in you were never a part of the "church body" there. It makes a huge difference.Not arguing with you on all the other stuff. Not worth it. | ||
| thats_it New member Username: thats_it Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.248.88.169 |
"Huh I stayed weeks in Delaware." That's certainly enough time to become an expert. "I spent hundreds of hours on the phone with the law enforcement in Delaware." It must have sucked to be them. I hope they had more success than we do in understanding just what in the hell you were saying. "When the refused to open a case it was my legal brief that had them reopen the case." The only legal briefs that you have are the boxers that you bought from Wal-Mart. "I spent hour after hour on the phone with Gary." Wow. "I spent hour after hour on the phone with his editorial staff." Double wow. "His editors told me bluntly they were going to publish a story around January." Maybe that was their plan BEFORE they talked to you. "When I went back and asked Gary he seemed to have trouble with facts." Well, this was after spending 'hour after hour on the phone' with you, right? That would do it for me. "Like 3 ladies who had worked at the place seem to have their facts in order and 1 person who did not work there seem to have some stories that did not line up." Are you saying that one person was unreliable or maybe lying? "Because I went to GGWO I am not going to say I am a disciple of GGWO. That crazy." No, you're crazy. "Jeff seems as messed up as the next guy. You will not get a defense out of me for Jeff other than I am not going to sit here and call him an ax murderer if he didn't do it, just to get it in the newspaper." So who is calling him an ax murderer? I think people have been very clear and consistent about what they are saying the did. "It does an amazing bad testimony to go around claiming everybody is a sexual pervert and everybody is a thief, and everybody who lives or went to that church is a disciple of Jeff Wisot." And you would know all about what makes a bad testimony, wouldn't you? "If 10% of what I hear is true from people about the church there it should have its doors closed. But to embellish stories to do it will backfire." You're kidding right? YOU admonishing people about embellishment. You've done more embellishing than Liberace's personal tailor. "I do not mark people, and stop talking to people..." Now here's a bald-face lie. ...like GGWO." Oh, I see. You don't stop talking to people like GGWO. Things are getting much clearer now. "That is its first line of communication technique." Thank you for that lesson. How would we have known without your superior knowledge to guide us? "Peggy fits perfectly in that catagory. She gets mad and all she knows how to do is go on some off the wall freak speech or ignore the obvious." Once again, the silly talk. Does anybody get what this means? "If Jeff is 1/10 as bas all of you say than get the damn story published." Yes, sir, Mr. In Control, Sir! "I never had much trouble getting the Sun to do it, or The Berkshire Eagle, and it appears there is more corruption than meets the eye in Delaware." Could someone send me a copy of the article that the Examiner published? I must have missed that one. What's that you say? There *was no* story. I can't imagine why not. I mean Neil was the driving force behind that...or so he said. I can't imagine why it never happened. Okay, yes, I can. I imagine it was because of how totally unstable and unreliable Neil seems to be. | ||
| thats_it New member Username: thats_it Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.248.88.169 |
"I seen plenty of evidence. What gives? I sure don't believe its fear on the part of those who worked there. I don't think Gary Soulsman lies to me." I'm sure that if you were more closely involved it would have already happened - or NOT. "I go to court in 10 days with a cloud of GGWO over me." Is that the extended forecast? I'll just guess at what that might mean in normal words. "I have a kid fighting for her children with GGWO interfering and Peggy has a hand on the same side with GGWO(her friends are GGWOin that fight against the young mother)." Seems like a little Peggy-bashing to me. Still pi$$ed off that she expects you to repay your debts? "Trust me..." I'd prefer not to. "a newspaper article is lightweight to that kind of stuff." I would never expect you to think that it was even remotely important, since you were only involved on the periphery. "Call the editor everyday and ask them what is going on." Oh, yeah, like that worked so well for you with the Baltimore Sun. "If that don't work seek out a newspaper that will print the story." Right-o, oh wise and effective one. Can you say "over-simplification"? "I refuse to believe if the story is that good DNJ is not publishing it because of lack of evidence, they most likely don't want to hear a bunch of bs back into their editorial existence about false statements." Or maybe your wackado behavior ran them off, too, just like it did Stephen Janis. "Every line in the Sun artlce can be backed up, and every line in the Berkshire Eagle can be backed up." "There some hot things in Gary's hands like affairs of people that can be backed up by former staff members. I took Gary straight to the source on that." What would we have done without YOU? "If you want to change the situation there, I would recommend picking people who really want things published and shown in the light. Not fluff that does nothing. Saying he is a bad bad man does nothing for the end." You're a genius. Why didn't any of US think of that? Wow. "I would praise God if there was a printed story on the church in Delaware." Wouldn't we all? "I simply don't like the idea that Peggy and Tom have got in bed with people from GGWO and act like they are against GGWO in the same breath." Nice choice of words, sleazoid. And what verification can you offer to support this accusation? "The Schallers, The Odaharas, are not people who would want to do anything but help destroy my family." "They are actively involved in it now." Who are they? "Recently. In the last few weeks they have communicated how to stir up trouble for people I love by making false accusations, including threatening somebody with their kids." Again who? "I want no part of that world. Call them your friends. I say they are dangerous." And yet again, WHO? | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
pEGGY, Offer support OF PROOF? Ha! Tons of it including voice mail and emails from people. One from you to people in a GGWO family. You tend to write them for some reason. Your on their side? Emails from you from the last year. You have made me your open enemy and you haven't stopped. Lets see an article get published now Peggy? You know how to lie, misrepresent the truth, embellish to the point other people are worried about dealing with you, how long has Gary been on this story? 2 Years and running? You have lied over and over again. Making Jeff out to be something he is not, and then turning around and defending the same people from GGWO he hangs out with as if they are innocent to real things. Jeff a thief, yeah I go along with that, Jeff a known homo sexual, no I won't go along with that. Jeff a guy who hires hit men, no now your stretching the truth again. Lets see ever written a person still attending GGWO presenting Peggy, ever had a phone call with anybody at GGWO? Every written anything on behalf of somebody from GGWO? Ever call people who you never have met to cause trouble for a person, ever call somebody telling lies to the point of no return. How will your stirring look to your friends, the DNJ and like. Your such a caring person! That is your motive right. I mean you have no desire to hurt a 4 and 8 year old. Peggy would never do that. Evidence an email from a GGWO person to you, where you respond and it gets forwarded to not one but three lawyers? Did you think it was going to lay on a computer in Maryland? I named them, why you going "who". You count those around the Schallers as having nothing to do with GGWO? That is pretty turn coat. Howcan you sit there and say in an email to me that you will do all these things to destroy me, put me in jail, etc and that you will write all these people etc. All these people support my daughter and myself. Leave well enough alone. To want to hurt my kid is pure evil. She has been through hell after Beth and John abandoned her. I wouldn't bet to much money on Stephen J. having been ran off from me while I was sitting in Detroit and you were calling him about a SASE package. NAME one damn story you got publish Peg? I can name 2 at least. Go speak to either reporter and speak to Rick Ross. The persons name wasn't Peggy and it didn't happen by getting on factnet and calling the person who got things published anything ugly or trying to hurt his daughter and her kids. You can be an evil bit$h as this shows. You ask dumb questions and your email shows me you will do anything to win. You will use money, time and threats to win. If I was a reporter a judge, a femaily member I be concerned at your need to control things around you. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Peggy to me its real simple. You can stand against the likes of GGWO or you can stand with them. If you can support those who would hurt somebody who has been raped when sh was just a child, abandoned at 16 and just had about every unspeakable done to her by her family and wrap you arms around those who want to hurt her some more.. Well I say get in your car and at least thank those who you help by driving down to Moravia Park Drive. Maybe they can find some more kids to abandon or maybe another family to destroy. But Peggy doesn't care what she has to do to call somebody a pervert or freak as long as she looks good. Getting weirder by the second. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Who are they: The Schallers, The Odahara's, Tom & Peggy,if I read your email right. I won't lump the others you say are involved because they say your not telling the truth, that they haven't heard from you in a long time and they are not interested in hurting my daughter or any kid. I love that the kids won in court, any half decent mother would be glad too. | ||
| vincer New member Username: vincer Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
dancer, you are a complete looney. why do you talk to gary from dnj? you were not involved in the school, the church, your kids did not attend there nor were they affected by ggwo in de, what is your problem? peggy should have never spoke to you. also, your problems with your kids, child support, whatever, is because you didnt keep your wee wee in your pants and fathered 2 more kids outside of marriage, please just go away! | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Peggy are you admitting or denying that you been speaking to people that deal with GGWO? That your involved in two family cases involving me, and my daughter who was outright abandoned by GGWO in 2001? What kind of mom stays silent on such things and then goes around blasting everybody on falsehoods? Your so into Neil bashing you don't mind joining the GGWO crowd in the effort. Oh I am mad at Neil. Lets see if I can hurt his daughter with a little help from GGWO folks. I know you won't post any clear answers. Your scared of this place. You can write little threats in email. Make me out to be a pervert but when you wrote people you didn't know, I don't think you knew you were taking on a kid who frankly has a lot of support and a lot of friends. How would you like it if your kid got raped at 5? Would you defend the people who sat back and let it go on. From what I hear not only are you encouraging their defenders, your trying to make her life more miserable. Thats just plain low. I wouldn't keep such company and write emails to such people in support of there efforts. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 159 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Peggy stay out of my daughters business, her family life, and anything to do with her. She has had a tough life and I would not go make bedfellows with GGWO folks or like to bring on more difficult times for her and her children. If you are a Christian you will leave her be. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Peggy and I been trading some great remarks with one another. Here is one from the Peggy and Tom show. Love how they speak about my daughter. Peggy writes:"Still off base Neil , don't know "your faux daughter...don't want to. But we will expose people like you & Wisot. This is no "Peg & Tom show" There are no threats. Only the Promise to bring the truth forward, thats all, and have the law hold you accountable to the money you owe. % 100 legal, legit and easy to do so keep talking Neil." Now for the truth. Peggy every time she doesn't get her way she blows up like a mad woman. She doesn't care how it affects other people and other things. The weeks prior to many of the events last year Peggy thought I was this great anti GGWO story. Now I am a con man. Now she has a new investigator on the story. eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww There going to put me in jail over things I didn't do, in places I haven't been. OK. Now I am Omnipresent. My daughter is my legal daughter. She is not my faux anything. I took her in at 16 after she been beaten to death practically by her mother. When she was 5 she was repeatidly raped by somebody in her family.Tom and Beth Schaller, Jon and Gary Odahara got Keri to leave her and her 8 month old behind on Pulaski Highway.With no food, no heat, no help. They never looked back and could care less that they left behind a 16 year old with an 8 month old. Ever walked through Patterson Park at night? Thats right Peggy you care less about knowing or helping anybody. You don't want to know and you would rather associate yourself with the likes of those who would hurt somebody like that. As you use to say. Are you or are you out? Pick those you will defend. Because as I see it your on their side. | ||
| ericlaw New member Username: ericlaw Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 192.44.136.113 |
"Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 9:29 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way - the new website - http://www.lccde.org/ Check out the history page and see how they try to explain away - lie away - the new name change.." just checking out this site.... John Capello is on staff? damn these guys get around. | ||
| thats_it New member Username: thats_it Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.248.88.169 |
Neil, Neil, Neil. I've noticed that you like music. Maybe you'll get a flipping clue from this little number. Paranoia Lyrics » Swollen Members [Mad Child] Sometimes I smash the wall when I'm alone in my room I'm an abusive reclusive like Dr. Doom Parts of darkness descend and consume me You wont believe the gloomy thoughts that run through me I'm proof ? if you spend the night Leave the next day like "I don't think his heads on right" Try to talk to myself but I don't listen I've got split personalities and competition And which ones Amanda? I've got issues I could be standing in front of your face and I'm not with you Schitzophrenia, Shane's brains distorted Sort of compulsive, obsessive, disorder Mathematical pattern addict of depraved mind Before I go to bed I hit the light switch seven times Yes, um, never mind, put the knife back Mad Child I'm outta my mind, but I'll be right back [Chorus] It's all in your head, you need to unwind Your losing your grip, the paranoia never ends It's all in your head, what you see in your mind There's no reason to trip, the paranoia never ends When your mind is acting wild And you swear your insane Can't nothing help you out Of this trap your in You don't know which way to turn And your head is in pain Can't nothing help you out Of this insanity [Prevail] There's no one behind you, there's no one beside you There's no one beside you, you know as well as I do There's no voice inside you, that shadow isn't moving You must be losing to confusion having illusions Still you wanna prove it, paranoia That someone might be coming for you, no ones trying to kill you stupid There's no Norman Bates, peeking in your window There's no Patrick Bateman trying to pick you up in limos You pop another pill, to try and calm your nerves But prescriptions make the descriptions a lot worse Your seeing red bursts, and then your head hurts You should have checked under the bed first Crawling on all fours, locking all the doors You must have flown over the cuckoos nest and lost your course I thought I told ya, don't let that $hit control ya 'Cause paranoia will destroy ya just a lesson for ya [Moka Only] Yo it's paranoia in your brain cell You think the worlds looking at you but you can't tell You need to find yourself a hobby or something and stop frontin' Nobodys out to get you, nobody wants nothin' I think you got a chemical imbalance When theres silence, you swear you hear cops and their sirens Maybe it's a different environment that you need But whatever it is, your minds dying to be free Your trying to perceive with the usual procedures Your chests feeling tight, you think your having seizures Maybe your just trying to hard to fit in You need to let that $hit go and get counselling my friend Oh, I'm not Peggy and you are a complete tool. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 161 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Peggy and I been trading some great remarks with one another. Here is one from the Peggy and Tom show. Love how they speak about my daughter. Peggy writes:"Still off base Neil , don't know "your faux daughter...don't want to. But we will expose people like you & Wisot. This is no "Peg & Tom show" There are no threats. Only the Promise to bring the truth forward, thats all, and have the law hold you accountable to the money you owe. % 100 legal, legit and easy to do so keep talking Neil." Now for the truth. Peggy every time she doesn't get her way she blows up like a mad woman. She doesn't care how it affects other people and other things. The weeks prior to many of the events last year Peggy thought I was this great anti GGWO story. Now I am a con man. Now she has a new investigator on the story. eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww There going to put me in jail over things I didn't do, in places I haven't been. OK. Now I am Omnipresent. My daughter is my legal daughter. She is not my faux anything. I took her in at 16 after she been beaten to death practically by her mother. When she was 5 she was repeatidly raped by somebody in her family.Tom and Beth Schaller, Jon and Gary Odahara got Keri to leave her and her 8 month old behind on Pulaski Highway.With no food, no heat, no help. They never looked back and could care less that they left behind a 16 year old with an 8 month old. Ever walked through Patterson Park at night? Thats right Peggy you care less about knowing or helping anybody. You don't want to know and you would rather associate yourself with the likes of those who would hurt somebody like that. As you use to say. Are you or are you out? Pick those you will defend. Because as I see it your on their side. | ||
| thats_it New member Username: thats_it Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.248.88.169 |
Wow. The computer whiz kid can't figure out how to post just once. Poor Peggy. I feel more sorry for her by the minute. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Peg, When I saw the email from you to the Odahara's it wasn't hard to figure out whose side you were on. When I talked to the editors in the local papers they started by fending for themselves and I had to slow them down I wasn't you and wasn't demanding that they write a story they could not back up. Calling my daughter faux is about as par for the course as a GGWO person gets. Only you would remain silent and let people like that attack a person who has been hurt so much. As you say. Don't know her, don't care. You care about one thing Peggy. Thats you. If there was a 4 year old in jeopardy or an 8 year old in jeopardy and they were part of my family you say lets roast the little things and have them for dinner. The cops don't believe you about Jeff but they believe others. The newspapers don't believe you about Jeff, they believe others. Your just scared to death of the truth. You can call people predators and think that makes it true. "Hey, Hey I saw this on my computer and Neil left it there" Really? How long has Neil been gone? Your son never went to myspace did he? You can say mean crap, get in bed with whoever you want and make accusations all day long. It doesn't make it true. And I can promise you, your little show here, and email will not help get it in print. You are helping Jeff by showing the press how unstable this whole mess is. One day you trust me, the next you don't. One day your friends with your neighbors, the next they are evil stupid cows. Yes I am quoting you dear.I am trying to think of a person whom you haven't named call. Oh that would be Tom. The rest including your own you get off on calling them things. Its a power trip. Good luck finding some. If you work with the medical profession still I would wonder how they can deal with your inability to tell the truth. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 163 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
faux daughter? How is my kid my fake daughter? She is my legal daughter. She is as legally my daughter as Tim is your son, unless you somehow got rid of him. Fake daughter. There isn't a soul on here who would defend the actions of somebody who would hurt her except you Peggy. She was raped as a child, she has never had a steady home except mine, and she has been abandoned over and over again. If your idea of being a parent is that you push them out and them cuss them out when you don't get your way, you got more kids than anybody I know. Because you do that to your friends, those you work with, the people that live near you, and your spouses. Peggy doesn't get her way she just vomits the person out her life. Well my so called faux daughter has been through hell and she will stick with me far better than I would imagine your kids will stick with you when you yell them down. My daughter at least loves me for who I am, and knows I will stand up for what is right over wrong anyday. I don't get on the phone with GGWO people when things are not going my way. Call the folks in Baltimore Peggy. It won't do much good. Threats don't equal justice. Fake Daughter? Is Tom your First True Love? Or did you accidentally have 6 kids with a jerk. I thought you were a smart intelligent women with multiple degrees that nobody ever gets over? I mean Carroll never fooled you, and Jeff never fooled you, and I never fooled you. You knew all along and thats why we all know that Peggy is such a smart cookie. Nobody can fool her. She never tells lies and calls people names and brings up false accusations. Not Peggy. She is the swetheart in all of this. LTM? I'm an adult I can admit my mistakes. You can't admit yours. There is something to be said for a person who thinks they are perfect. Faux daughter. Thanks Peg. I guess your 6 are just part of your zoo collection? That not really your children either. Just something to scream at. (Message edited by dancer on August 15, 2007) | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 164 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
Vincer your an idiot. Your math is pathetic, and who are you to say what I should and shouldn't be involved in. Three to four people on staff at that church worked with me in Baltimore. They now work with Jeff. Peg did indeed start hers on her own. But she isn't the person who asked me to be involved in the Delaware stuff. I don't pick battles that way. Oh I fathered TWO children outside of my marriage? No. One and its a stretch to say it that way. I have 4 by Keri. 1 adopted, and 1 from after the divorce. Keri left in March of 2005. My son was born May of 2006 more than a year later. I don't think a pregnancy last past 9 months. 14 month pregnancy? Pretty neat. My oldest child is older than Peggy's oldest child. GGWO was involved in abandoning her in 2001 with her less than 1 year old child. I love people who support GGWO in such great pronouncements.Neil your an idiot. Which one of you takes such a stand? I think most of you wouldn't try to help your own if they were on their death bed, let alone a person who been hurt by GGWO's decisions. I am an idiot. Well what do you call a person who supports GGWO this way? Your either there supporters or not. I won't hold my breath. Maybe when it happens to one of yours you will change your mind. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.40.211.238 |
BTW Vincer Jeff went to my inlaws and the Schallers over me. He went to last years convention and sat right down in front of my mother in law. And had some choice words about me and Peggy.Oh yes and about my kids. Lets see Jeff has nothing to do with GGWO, went to convention but his church has no affiliation, had a conversation with my mother in law because they are just friends, and they didn't discuss me or my kids. You smoking crack? The meeting I put together for the press was in Baltimore City. A reporter from Delaware came. I didn't hold a gun to his head. I certainly didn't have one of the daughter in laws of CHS tell of the famed affairs while resting in Delaware. I was very much in Baltimore. In fact my hotel room overlooked the GGWO campus that week. | ||
| thats_it New member Username: thats_it Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.248.88.169 |
Somewhere in Michigan a village is missing an idiot. So does this clear up why the rest of us didn't show up at that meeting? Little buddy, you really know how to clear a room. I heard there are better turn outs at a cruise ship buffet on salmonella night. Before you blew into town like a bad wind there were a lot of us that were planning to go. But nobody wants to get within spitting distance of you, pal. Let me just sum this up for you. Do yourself a favor. Do your kids (all 20 million of 'em) a favor. You need to shut your pie hole. You need to get a hobby or therapy or drugs or a keeper or something. Kill your PC. Cut your internet cable with some garden shears. People are just sick to death of hearing your BS. You are living proof that manure can grow legs and walk. And now, having gotten that off my chest, FN can now return to The Poor Pitful Neil Show. Tune in today when we'll hear Neil say, "My kids, my kids...that's all I care about. It wasn't my fault. My zipper just flew open and one thing led to another. Can I help it that women find me irresistable in a Jack-Nicholson-in-the-Shining kind of way?" And I'm STILL not Peggy, you fool. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.41.57.253 |
Tom like I really care? But this is more proof that the story that would have been is being slaughtered by this crap. I don't really care about it. Oh Peggy can lie her but off now. Nobody especially those close to her believe her. | ||
| dancer Intermediate Member Username: dancer Post Number: 167 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.41.57.253 |
Planning to go where? Planning to meet with the reporters? Thats pretty neat. Lets see I put together a meeting and if I didn't come to my own meeting more were going to come? Whatever? I rode in Peggys car with Gary Soulsman from GGWO campus. I hunted down the reporters that were there. There have been two stories printed in recent history about GGWO and I can tell you the step by step of how they happened. The editor of the Baltimore Sun called me when my daughter was in the ER. He was returning my call and also Jeannie Byrnes who had called. I spent basically the next 6 months helping with the details of what had happened. Jeannie knew more than me and I was being fed misinformation from within and it was being corrected by those planning on leaving. That became the Baltimore Sun story. Laura called me and asked me if I would call Nicole at the Berkshire Eagle. I did. She asked me to get in touch with some different people, and that included contact for Betsy. I found them via people in the area. What has dear old Peggy got published. What person other than her decade plus non child support paying ex husband got jailed. All this talk of terrible people. Well look around One person in Jeffs church has manage to help put away 4 sex offenders and it wasn't dear old Peggy. It was one of the people dear old Peggy threatened. Nobody wants to get within spitting distance of me. What from this crowd? God I am so worried. Let me say this again. I have 4 kids by Keri, 1 by Rhonda a full year and some months after Keri left, and I have a daughter that is adopted. I don't recall anybody else in this little swing of things managing to get jack published. I don't remember anybody but Jeannie Byrnes and the Leonards being able to get much done in this cause. A few hundred postcards, The Baltimore Sun story was more effective than the bs that has followed on here. I rather listen to Jim go off about theology than Peggy and crowd go off about some other pervert to be. At least Jim has some logic to his argument. Oh and how is it my fault that GGWO abandoned a 16 year old with a 1 year old, and how is it my fault that she was raped when she was a child living in a state I never even been too? I know I am omnipresent again. Move the target to Neil. I am sure the story will get printed real soon. It is so believeable with Peggy's mouth in foot. | ||
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