| Author | Message | ||
     minutus Senior Member Username: minutus Post Number: 1107 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.99.121.154 |
Read the two stories: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54271 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54317 | ||
| dancer2 Intermediate Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 84.230.139.145 |
Is your point to demonstrate that in the last 10 years the angels have left GG to go elsewhere, or that there are plenty of people out there with "challenged" critical thinking skills, or... | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 191 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 63.160.106.171 |
1) Cute... In the first story, "Greater Grace" is the first church mentioned, and "Greater Works Ministries" is the last one mentioned! 2) Every time I loaded either article into my web browser, there was an ad in the right hand column displaying a picture of the original Cordell Walker... 3) The first article linked to a page titled "Angels Singing in a Maryland Church." The explanation provided alleges "Gradually, you are able to hear accompanying voices in the background -- beautiful voices of beings who were not in the service. There seems to be no doubt they are angelic voices." I didn't hear anything which left me with no doubt that I was listening to angels. Do you? http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/angels/angels-1.htm | ||
| minutus Senior Member Username: minutus Post Number: 1112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.99.121.154 |
Just can't escape that Cordell  . I could not hear anything I would clearly define as angelic. Were any FNers present at this event? | ||
| orangetwopay Advanced Member Username: orangetwopay Post Number: 610 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.32.38.129 |
the LW crew has been working overtime and has found a tape from the GGWO message in question... this tape caused quite a sensation in the affiliate church i was involved with. the audio we have is different from the link above, and stevens continues to talk over the alleged singing. only afterward does he mention the "manifestation" and asks those who experienced it to raise their hand. most of it sounds like shadow audio on the tape itself... we'll post it sometime today. OTP | ||
| louise_connolly Advanced Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 624 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
I heard a piano and a singer that was quite painful to the ears. No angelic anything, not even an 'angel of light'. | ||
| anon_brief Advanced Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.76 |
Yeah, but Louise when you play the backmasked version it says, "I sing like a wet cat." | ||
| mercyreigns Advanced Member Username: mercyreigns Post Number: 747 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.228.77.38 |
I was there and the woman was singing. It was Pat Dykty. She was singing a very old hymn about Grace Then I heard the most beautiful voices and did several others. We were overjoyed. Sadly as it turned out that was the night that I believe it was Ed?? Annette? Arto? or one of the men pianists trying our new synthesizer. It was the next day when in a rap we were told by someone in the orchestra that a synthesizer can make a noise such as high pitched singing voices. There was quite a controversey between those who swear it was angels, (I believe it myself) but after speaking with Linda and Annette and a few others on staff and friends we realized it was indeed the synthesizer because it was demonstrated to us that next day. I will admit there was a sweetness of spirit for those of us who believed we heard angels. Not even the revelation of the sythesizer could have taken that sweetness and closeness I felt that night to God. So even though it was an instrument and not angels it still was from God as all that is good is and I am still blessed as I remember that special night. Nancy Curra...I was there | ||
| mercyreigns Advanced Member Username: mercyreigns Post Number: 748 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.228.77.38 |
The thing that really disturbed is that those who chose to believe it was indeed the synthisizer were ostrisized by Stevens particulary L.C. I heard him say mocking cruel things to her and she was a leader then. I lost much respect for CS that day but fear of "his" truths forced me into a prison of my own making out of fear of being punished by God. I just broke down in front of my husband yesterday because I was wound so tight. He got me to spill it all out and I did. The bondages and chains that still have a grip on me from that legalistic cultic place are so hard for me to shake. Yesterday with my husband I had a breakthrough where I could really feel free again to talk to God and listen. To really pour my heart out to Him and come out from behind the walls of bondage. It has been nearly four years ...separating falsities and learning Truth. For a Christian to go through something like this is agonizing, truly agonizing. I wish it on no one. God's peace Nancy | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 192 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Hi Nancy, Thanks for setting the record straight about this. As terrible as it was that you and Linda went through what you described, I'm glad this event was one more step for both of you in your journey out the door. I hope you can soon break totally free from fear of being punished by God for your actions. John ps: Linda is doing very well! | ||
| whatsup Advanced Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 508 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
I remember in South Berwick, everyone was always hearing angels sing in the services, seeing them in the chapel, etc. One time during the "4 part harmony" I did hear something odd...not singing but a kind of roaring whirring sound, like a powerful motor, from above me. Whether it was angels or something natural thing like a mechanical thing, I don't know, but I do remember it very clearly. And of course with the mindset at the time, I thought it was angels | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3784 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.185 |
There where and there where not angels singing. Both are true as far as I am concerned. I heard them when there was no synthisizer being played.When no one was playing anything. I even have heard them (one time) in my own home. I simply took note of it and went about my activities for the day. I didn't think it important to focus on too much. Made for a nice treat but not to become something to seek after. I have heard them sing many times but it has been a while now since any of that has happened. I don't think it is important enough to be too occupied with though as it could lead one in the wrong direction in their Spiritual focus. I think such things are just for edifying the body members and not to make more of any speaker/preacher than we ought to. Unlike what we see in the leadership of GGWO. "Angels sing when I preach". Big deal. Angels sing when you don't preach. (probably more now than before this fiasco came to light) IMHO Dave } | ||
| mercyreigns Advanced Member Username: mercyreigns Post Number: 749 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.228.77.38 |
It was very late last night when I posted and so I just read the article but did not listen to the stream. I just listened to the recording at http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/angels/audio/angels-1.mp3 That is just a lot of very irritating squeaking. There is an actual tape of the night I am speaking of back then and you can hear the synthesizer. I am not sure who that is singing but I was at every service and don't remember that particular singing. Actually that is not even typical of the type of worship songs we sang in GG. Is that actually a GG tape? | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3785 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.185 |
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? } | ||
| dancer2 Intermediate Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 115 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 80.186.170.133 |
So I guess David M would believe the first alternative I suggested above, and the rest would be more inclined towards the second... | ||
| guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner Intermediate Member Username: guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.133.145.249 |
"There where and there where not angels singing. Both are true as far as I am concerned. I heard them when there was no synthisizer being played.When no one was playing anything. I even have heard them (one time) in my own home. I simply took note of it and went about my activities for the day." Munson, Have you seen Elvis and heard him sing lately in your house? This could be worth alot of bling... Elvis and Munson a match made in heaven | ||
| angelathisfeet Junior Member Username: angelathisfeet Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.189.102.68 |
Maybe its me, but sure sounded alot like Alvin and the Chipmonks... | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3791 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.45.158 |
Gee Guess, I didn't know that you don't believe in angels. Oh well. I do because the Word says they do and that is enough for me. A far as Elvis is concerned. I am not a fan. Plus you are comparing "apples to oranges." Dead folks don't get to talk with the living except in the case of King Saul when he visited the witch of Endor. Nice try at a jab though you missed by a mile. You aren't one of those who's philosophy is "If I don't see it it isn't true" are you? That would be such a shame. Doubting God's own Word where it concerns the visitation of angels.(I'm shocked!) Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. You may have even talked with one without even knowing it.  } | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3792 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.45.158 |
I have seen a lot of supernatural activity in my days. That believers would think it doesn't happen today is a bit disconcerting to me. Puts a person in a position to be manipulated and influenced because of their lack of knowledge or belief in these matters. Angels come in two catagories. Those in good standimg with God and those who left their first estate. Both have an active part in the affairs of man. One to be a ministering spirit the other to seek and destroy. Chalk me up as a lunatic for believing the Word but God is true and every man a liar. (I care little about mans opinions anyway.) Look for empiricle evidence if you choose to but faith has more substance than that.HEB 11:1. But you should already know this. } | ||
| sister_mary Intermediate Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 240 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 80.223.33.226 |
I believe in Angels! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huGz3nOQ7a4 | ||
| forte Intermediate Member Username: forte Post Number: 348 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
I was there too. The band had just gotten a new digital piano and Joe....what's his name...was messing around with the "choir" button. He just thought it would be a nice touch. And it was. Stevens had no idea of the technology but he shouldn't have played it up after he was told the truth. After that the band was never allowed to use that button again. | ||
| orangetwopay Advanced Member Username: orangetwopay Post Number: 616 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.31.238.234 |
maybe there was a "bob soprano" button as well... wish no one had pushed that one... | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3798 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.108 |
When I heard angels the equipment you speak of was not present. Once was in Framingham and I was the sound man at the time. No synth. just an amp with a recorder hooked into it. Only volume ,base and treble controls. Nothing fancy at all. I heard angels not because Carl Stevens was preaching but in spite of the fact. God is faithful. We already know that man isn't. Why did this take place? I don't know and it makes no differance to me. It carries little if any importance in the grand sceme of things that concern us here on earth. We will hear angels galore when all is said and done.We will stand next to them in God's presence. May it be soon. } | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 195 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
David Munson, The times you've referred to, when you heard angels singing -- I'm curious, were any of them at the church service in Baltimore that this thread referenced at the beginning? Thanks, John | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3806 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.38 |
John, no they where not. I have heard them in Framingham and in other churches (non-GG) as well as in my own home once. I don't find them to be of any significance in my walk with the Lord so I don't make too much of them.(I kind of thought of it as a treat ,if you will) I have never been to Baltimore and never plan to. I can't think of any legitaimte reason to go there either. We all know why. } | ||
| sister_mary Intermediate Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 247 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 83.102.66.213 |
This morning I saw in the sky one kilometer from my working place a flash of light in the sky (I believe it was an angel). Today everyone was so nice to me at work and I told it to my husband and he said that prayers were heard. And also our congregations camping centres main house was protected from fire, because last weekend there was a camp and someone had left the electric stove on. My husband takes voluntarily care of the congregatons camping centre (three houses and a big sauna and a old hut plus minicottage near a pure pond near Russian border) beside his work and when making the aftercamping check he saw there an open stove! Praise God he protected the place from a fire destruction! There are really angels, I believe. I already sent a prayer request to the main pastor to get more volunteers to take care of the location but people are so busy with their own lives and notice usually things after something has happened! | ||
| chaz Junior Member Username: chaz Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
I remember the angel story being told in one of the staff meetings ( brainwashings) in Delaware. Of course it had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit and everything to do with elevating Carl. Apart from that, I can remember listening to a group of kids singing a praise and worship song and they were getting into it, eyes closed, raised hands and you would swear angels joined in. My thought was that these innocent kids were singing straight from the heart and I was getting to hear them as God hears them.( imagine..singing with your heart, not some well orchestrated, with ulterior motives show) God uses these pedophile scum bags in spite of themselves. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3815 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.86 |
Didn't carl and company win an angel awrd or something for the Grace Hour? Maybe they should take it back,all things concidered. I'll bet the LW crew could come up with an altrenative to the angel award to better fit GGWO. How about,the "angel of light" award? } | ||
| hadasa Advanced Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 619 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 205.172.107.75 |
a long time ago my friend tommy zisko told me he found places where angels slept in the snow; imagine my disenchantment when i peeked around the trees only to find those rascals making 'snow angels' a 'treat'?...what, like a twinkie? | ||
| hadasa Advanced Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 620 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 205.172.107.75 |
a long time ago my friend tommy zisko told me he found places where angels slept in the snow; imagine my disenchantment when i peeked around the trees only to find those rascals making 'snow angels' a 'treat'?...what, like a twinkie? | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3819 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.45.18 |
No, not a twinky.More like manna. Bamana bread,Southern deep fried manna,Manna pudding,Manna gotta tell ya angels do exsist whetha ya believe it or not. Twinky? Yuck. } | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1668 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
munson, I talked by phone this AM to GWICTD in the faraway sandbox who mused whether what you heard in your house was nothing more than yourself farting and snoring similtaneously--he wondered if any of your animals were offended and left the building. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3827 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.205 |
No but if I feed my animals any ham I have to leave the building. Seems that some doubt the existence of angels. Gee, I'm no scholar but I don't doubt the Word of God where it speaks about angels and their involvement with man. I thought you guys believed the Word. Sounds more like,"if I don't experience it,it can't be real". Or "it can't be real because you experienced it". Does such intellectual prowess as has been shown here make one susceptible to loss of faith in the unseen,thereby nullifying Hebrews 11:1 or any other part of Holy writ? That's pretty sad. Maybe I sense envy? Why would any one envy another member of the body?(especially me?Nothing special here) Why would any one poo poo what another has been allowed to experience unless they where intimadated or envious?(ignorance would work) I see it so many times,"you had a spiritual experience? You must be nutz ,that doesn't happen any more". Stuck on emperical evidence are you? Can't help you there. On a side note,there where no animals in my dwelling at the time. There was however a tremendous amount of demonic activity coming form Satanists in the apartment above us.(not that that concerned me) Supernateral experiences don't happen? Uhuh,sure ,sure. Poke out your eyes ,you might see better,LOL. Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. } | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1681 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
For the record: 1. I believe in angels. 2. I believe they sing. 3. I believe we'll hear them. 4. I don't know how to distinguish 'angels' singing from my own imagination because I have no initial point of reference. 5. The only source I have to refer to angels singing is in scripture and this occurs only in the presence of humans on very momentous occasions, say like the birth of Jesus or something or in heaven as seen in the Revelation when we all meet up yonder. | ||
| hadasa Advanced Member Username: hadasa Post Number: 643 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 205.172.107.75 |
anyhow, it doesn't matter if I don't 'believe in' em, they are a reality 'who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire'- Heb1:7 I cannot escape from your penetrating discernment; I know at least I have been green with envy not only over this but over your amusing ditties "not a twinky.More like manna. Bamana bread,Southern deep fried manna,Manna pudding,Manna gotta tell ya angels do exsist whetha ya believe it or not" I too desire to bring sunshine into peoples lives; one thing though, didnt you forget the cornbread (manna) and Tommy Zisko may 'believe in' angels too; he just doesn't 'believe' they make the snow angels, at least all the time | ||
| bob_brinton Senior Member Username: bob_brinton Post Number: 1230 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.253.37 |
Do Hell's Angels sing too? | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3834 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.144 |
No, they let their Harley's do the singing. Joyful noise and all. } | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3837 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.144 |
Hadasa, How you been my friend and brother in Christ? Was there cornbread mentioned in that song? I can't remember all of it. Or are you saying that I am a bit corny? You would be correct in that assumption. How could Tommy Zisco not believe the angels make all the snowmen angels? I've seen the wing imprints in the snow,LOL. Do you think they make the crop circles too? --- 1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: :13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Soon Lord,please. } | ||
| sister_mary Intermediate Member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 257 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 83.102.70.91 |
Congratulations to GGWO because of new chapel (was its name Bethel Dedication?)! I send you all my greetings and feel really blessed now. I feel in my spirit that you will experience a great change in your lives and grow and learn from the past... And about "Poppes Shrovetide bun", do not be offended about it, because Apostle Paul wrote in Col. 4: 6. "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one." So if your mind is filled with soft, creamy and honey thoughts and mumbling, this will produce a heart disease because you get fat and slow. Real grace-bun is made of fullwheat and has salt in it and it keeps the eater healthy and gives life: that unleavened bread is Jesus Christ, our Lord. Isn't life awsome??? http://www.marlo.com/holiday/e/22eggtur.htm | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1705 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
sister mary will you be in my next video, please? | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 199 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
A friend of mine who does not read FN recently forwarded me an email and said, "...it looks like someone is doing some PR... I just wonder what this is supposed to prove... angels being there some how vindicate all of the strange doctrine..." She was referring to this newsletter she'd received from a gg missionary: ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: WND Article on Angelic Singing Mentions GGWO!! I have to believe that there's at least a few of you on my e-list that also are regular readers of World Net Daily - http://www.wnd.com - an excellent conservative website, so perhaps several of you already read this article from last Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 (8 days ago) - it mentions several recorded church services where angels can be heard singing, and mentioned first in the list of 4 is....Greater Grace's World Outreach Service from Feb 6, 1996!!! What's even more wonderful is that I WAS THERE!! (As many of you on my e-list were also!!) What is worth noting is that in the WND article, a researcher who they asked to investigate the claims discounts much of it, and one of his key points is that the angelic claims weren't made until AFTER the recordings were heard. I can testify, unequivocally, that this is UNTRUE--simply because that night, after service, the Fellowship Hall was packed (as usual) for our usual Rap Session and Pat Dykty was the first of at least 30-40 people(or more) who all testified with total assurance that they heard angels singing in the congregation (in other words, BEFORE anyone could've heard the recording of the service). Pat actually heard them first because they began singing while she was doing a SOLO!! As far as hearing them yourself, consider this: 3 years later, when I was visiting Indianapolis, P Terry and Jane Fleck and I listened to the audio tape of that service and you can undoubtedly hear this chorus of voices entering into the background while Pat is singing---it's pretty mind-boggling to grasp the reality of it, but hey, what's the big deal?? We're sons of God, aren't we?? (If you've been gloriously born-again in Christ Jesus by His marvelous grace, of course.) (For any of you receiving this message that would like to know more about GGWO, visit http://www.ggwo.org --- and may God BLESS you!!) (Now here's the article.) ******************************* 2-17-07: http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54271 A retired Air Force officer has posted an online collection of recordings he believes captures voices and music of God's angels in heaven. "I have four specific recordings of angels singing in church settings," Jim Bramlett of Lake Mary, Fla., told WND. "It happened supernaturally. There's no other explanation. It's either from God or from the devil, and I don't think the devil is in the business of worshipping Jesus. That is not in his job description." ******************************* continued... | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 200 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
The day before I received the preceding email, I had written to Jim Bramlett, owner of the website World Net Daily linked to. I quoted Nancy and Forte's posts (above), gave him links to this page, and added: "Apparently Pastor Stevens felt if angels are singing in his church service it means God is endorsing his work. "Mr. Bramlett, now that you've heard what Paul Harvey would call "the rest of the story," I hope you will have more integrity than that pastor and not be afraid to tell your site visitors about this additional information." Jim replied and said, "If that is true I will surely correct the situation. First, however, I will forward this [my email to him] to a reliable and totally honest friend who is on the pastoral staff at that church and get his input. I will make a decision after that." Jim and I exchanged about a dozen emails. (Dave Munson -- that's why I asked if you'd heard angels in Baltimore. I was sure the answer was "no," but needed to clarify it for my discussions with Jim). I don't think the friend he referred to lived in Baltimore in 1996. Apparently, Jim's friend forwarded my inquiry to another gg staff pastor, whose reply is below. As it is "not the official church response," I have anonymized the two gg guys. I'm posting Jim's reply with his knowledge and permission. (I doubt that there will ever be an official response). Jim has also edited his website to advise visitors that "Investigation has revealed the possibility that some of the sound may have been produced by a synthesizer...." continued... | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 201 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
The "unofficial" gg reply to Jim Bramlett's inquiry: Dear Mr. Bramlett, I am writing in response of Pastor so-and-so's request to search the matter concerning the angels singing on tape. What I am writing here is not the official church response to this matter, but my honest evaluation as a person who has access and skills to evaluate the matter. After talking with the musicians involved that night, having intimate knowledge of our setting, and having listened to the tape I would suggest following observations: - I cannot verify objectively whether people heard angels or not. - The musicians involved, Annette Bednez and Jon Saboe, seem not to be able to recall the specifics of their actions that night. They refer to three specific instances during that time period when people claimed hearing angels. - Nobody had intentionally tried to imitate angels to mislead anybody into thinking that. - The sounds on the tape are quite surely those of a synthesizer for the following reasons: · the angelic sound is following the piano sound closely; i.e. whatever piano plays the angels are singing those very notes with a delay of less than a second (a slow "attack" in the start of the sound is quite common with those types of sounds). · I do recognize that particular synthesizer sound; i.e. we still have the unit that has that particular sound · Angels are not singing with words, just with 'instrumental' style i.e. with ethereal 'oohs' and 'aahs'. - What it comes to Pastor Stevens‚ involvement in admonishing the band 'for not using that button' is not true. None of the musicians recall anything of that sort. We have used this sound all through my years in Baltimore (since 1999) sporadically. - What it comes to some slandering insinuations of our former Senior Pastor's integrity and ethics by people who have left this church, you judge it yourself whether it is worth of giving ear to or not. I find it rather unfortunate that I or anybody was able to provide this evaluation before the tape has gone as far as it has. I am also rather incredulous to hear that somebody has consulted a 'specialist' in seeking to verify the nature and origin of the angelic sounds and that they couldn't tell the same what was rather obvious to me as I was listening to the tape myself. My experience is that hearing angels and seeing visions is usually provided by God as a personal but rarely as a communal testimony. I wish that you would succeed in your mission and find better examples of angels singing than in our tape. Thank you, for your interest in God's work and seeking to testify of His great works to the unbelieving world. Yours in Christ, Pastor so-and-so Greater Grace World Outreach continued... (Message edited by johncollins on March 10, 2007) | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Jim Bramlett's reply: Dear Pastor so-and-so: Thank you for your gracious and thorough explanation. I just listened to the tape again for the umpteenth time and I can definitely hear what is probably the synthesizer. However, there seems to be at least one part where the sound seems totally independent, by both timing and notes, of any vocalization or instrument. I also recall that on the tape with Pastor Stevens speaking, about 25 people bore witness to hearing angels. Since there was obviously no attempt to deceive anyone, that fact inclines me to believe there were at least some angel sounds. It is not difficult to believe because many people have reported to me similar phenomena in their own churches or elsewhere. It is probably more common that we realize. I have three other examples on my Web site. You said, "While I wholeheartedly believe in the phenomenon as absolutely true, it is awfully difficult to make hard science out of that. " I also believe it is true, and science is not needed! In the past I have found that God resists scientific inquiry by mere humans about His reality and works. It is probably an insult to Him. I will probably add a clarification to my Web site saying that further investigation has revealed some synthesizer sounds, which are acknowledged, but in this writer's opinion, and that of others, some of the tape seems to be genuinely beyond human ability. If you or the other Pastor so-and-so have any further thoughts, please let me know. Thanks again, and God bless you, Jim | ||
| jim_kennedy Advanced Member Username: jim_kennedy Post Number: 557 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.10 |
Sorry, I had to break my fast and comment on this one. Besides the fact that Annette sings sharp all the time and hurts my ears, the "angel" parts are played on an effects processor. And not a high quality one. The first guy I heard use it was Tony Banks on the Genesis album "Seconds Out" during the solo section of "Cinema Show" and it is awesome. Today many electrictronic keyboards come equipped with vocal effects. Musically there isn't anything other worldly about it. The "angels" are singing a simple major chord and always come in on the first beat of the measure. If you listen closely at around 4:00 minutes they actually "sing" the wrong chord and are out of tune. Kind of like Sabo's playing. "You can bull s**t the fans, but you can't bull s**t the ball players." How are you all doing anyway? Jim, wokbts@aol.com (Message edited by jim kennedy on March 10, 2007) (Message edited by jim kennedy on March 10, 2007) | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3854 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.133 |
When I heard angels it was long before 1996. As a matter of fact I stopped hearing them at gg services about 1982 or earlier. (I heard them the first time in 1975) When I heard them they continued even after the service was well over and many had already left. Not a lot of people heard them that I know of at or about that time but there where a few who did. Those that I know of didn't make too much ado about it except to acknowledge that it took place and was kind of nice to hear. I also have heard a rushing wind type of sound as well a few times. I thought it was pretty cool but nothing to make a focal point of. It's Christ that is Lord ,not angels. They serve God's purpose like everything else in this creation does. From what the scriptures have to say we may have sat next to one in a coffee shop and conversed at some point. (that might have beeen entertaining to them) Heb 13:2. } | ||
| forte Intermediate Member Username: forte Post Number: 351 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
Regarding pastor so-and-so’s letter - What it comes to Pastor Stevens‚ involvement in admonishing the band 'for not using that button' is not true. None of the musicians recall anything of that sort. We have used this sound all through my years in Baltimore (since 1999) sporadically. - Pastor so and so was not there and must rely on the selective memory of the band. A little reminder, in order for those folks to be able to tolerate staying in that ministry they have to deny any negativity from their pastor and leader. If someone who is now on the outside has something negative to say, they can chalk it up to lies. They are very good at forgetting and also lying to try to look better than they are. I could have been wrong. It could be that Stevens told me or Lewis told me personally and it never got to the band. Though I doubt it. But I am willing to admit that I don’t remember verbatim how it went down. I apologize for not having exact documentation to prove my point. I do agree with pastor so and so about them not intentionally trying to dupe people into believing there were angels singing. I know they were only trying to complement the singing and they were excited about the new piano and the effects it had. | ||
| shat_happens Intermediate Member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 324 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
this is also all from a man who had liquidwaves issues as well! anyway, check out "boilin' steaks with shat!" to put your minds at rest! http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2007/03/shat-boilin-steaks.html | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1786 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
shat, why would anyone boil a steak? help this texas boy understand why you would so profane meat that way. | ||
| orangetwopay Advanced Member Username: orangetwopay Post Number: 637 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.34.23.98 |
yeah, i've never even heard of boiling a steak before shat showed me that. | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 205 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 63.160.106.171 |
Forte, Don't feel bad about not remembering exact details from something 10-11 years ago. I spoke with two others who have been referenced in this thread, and they didn't recall anything about it at all. And I am sure both of them knew about it back when it happened. But who knew we should be taking notes? ;) Pastor so and so also said neither Jon nor Annette could recall the exact details either. What's interesting to me is that while at least one gg missionary seems to be using this incident as a form of validation for the gg church, research by a current staff pastor right at the plaza concludes it is definitely a synthesizer. I got a kick out of the comment that "I am also rather incredulous to hear that somebody has consulted a 'specialist' in seeking to verify the nature and origin of the angelic sounds and that they couldn't tell the same what was rather obvious to me as I was listening to the tape myself." Let's see... we have a gg missionary just last month using this event in a newsletter, referencing it as the gospel truth. We have several witnesses here reporting how it was played up in Baltimore and elsewhere back when it happened. "Prove all things so we'll know if it's true and can hold onto it, and if it's false we can reject it." And then we have a pastor who is "incredulous" that someone would seek to prove -- or disprove -- the claims... | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1787 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
whooaa. it's angelgate. | ||
| whatsup Advanced Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 558 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Who cares if people use a story of angels singing to "validate" the GG church? Anyone who has any kind of biblical teaching knows that a church is not "validated" that way. There are all kinds of counterfeit signs in churches today...false tongues, false miracles....there are real angels and there are angels of light. That is why the way to "validate" a church is by the word of God and how scriptural the teaching is, and by the fruit of the Spirit in people's lives. To debate whether it was or was not angels is really pointless because no one really can prove or disprove it, and also because it is not any type of official church "validation". | ||
| forte Intermediate Member Username: forte Post Number: 352 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
True, so true. | ||
| dancer2 Intermediate Member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 62.248.159.129 |
It would still be interesting to know which pinheads angels are dancing on these days though... | ||
| sandy_point New member Username: sandy_point Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 4.231.44.224 |
And by what do they substantiate this claim: "....In the past I have found that God resists scientific inquiry by mere humans about His reality and works. It is probably an insult to Him." (Message edited by sandy_point on March 13, 2007) | ||
| anon_brief Advanced Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 612 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.76 |
At best, this is a misrepresentation. At worst, it is a blatant lie. The event is portrayed by GG to be the undisputed truth...even to this day. It is significant to some of us because it evidences a few things, not the least of which is that there are leaders within GG who continue to allow lies to be told to the public without any attempt to correct them. This behaviour is rather indicative of the character (or lack thereof) of the leadership. Certainly, this is not a matter of the utmost importance, so the question is WHY? Why would a group perpetuate this lie? What purpose does it serve? What benefit would there possibly be? Why isn't the truth important? Why isn't correction of a SIMPLE error important? I think we all know the answers to those questions...and that's why it matters and THAT's why some of us care. | ||
| whatsup Advanced Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 559 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
anon_brief, With all the lies and coverups that GG has a history of..... including adulteries, broken families, child molesters, misuse of funds,etc........ someone claiming that angels sang in a service seems rather trivial to me. Not to mention (again) that it is not something that can be proved or disproved for certain. And even if it could be proved, it does not give GG God's stamp of approval for all time or in all things | ||
| anon_brief Advanced Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 613 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.76 |
Whatsup, While I fully understand that you think it is a trivial matter (and not that I disagree - see para. 5), I think that it is telling with regard to the character and the general, overall practices of the leadership. You asked who cared. I answered. I don't find it to be a matter of Biblical scholarship either, just one of basic responsible, ethical publication of materials. Perhaps it would not be a dangerous claim to one as grounded in the Word as you, but I can assure you that to many new and unsuspecting Christians, it serves as a God-sent endorsement of GG. With all the wrong-doings surrounding GG, as horrific as they are, most especially those involving the most vulnerable of God's children, the absolute gravest one of all is the separation of people from God. This takes place one lie at a time. The little ones are merely the building blocks for the big ones. | ||
| greaterdisgrace Intermediate Member Username: greaterdisgrace Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 68.83.109.13 |
ANON----Exactly..It was the "angels" that brought us "unworthy heathens" in, the hocus pocus that kept us there.....and then they violated our children. A lie is a lie and it cost my child her innocence. | ||
| whatsup Advanced Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 560 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
greaterdisgrace, I am intrigued by your post...are you saying that you were drawn into GG ministry by angels and kept there by hocus pocus? I would love for you to explain that further. I do see anon's point that the idea of angels in a ministry would attract new believers and seem to be an indication of God's approval to them. But GG was never a ministry with an emphasis on signs or supernatural phenomena. In fact, it was played down. If you wanted "hocus pocus" you could find much more of it elsewhere, for example in many pentecostal churches..... tongues, being slain in the spirit, people dancing and shouting out prophecies...and even things like snake handling and drinking poison. GG had its emphasis on the word of God. There was a lot of good teaching mixed in with some false. I personally was drawn to GG by the love of people there, which I still believe was genuine and sincere. Corrupt leadership does not make everyone there corrupt. The love of the "body" as we called it, and the teaching of the word was what kept me there. Until of course, things behind the scenes were exposed as they were. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1795 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
But GG was never a ministry with an emphasis on signs or supernatural phenomena. In fact, it was played down. Sorry, whatsup, gotta disagree with you here. In the early 70s there were all kinds of sights and prophecies of the miraculous. There was the claim of the cross in the sky above the Wiscasset church. There was the claim that a man heard the gospel in Turkish at a service. There was the claim that Carl always had two angels over his shoulder when he preached. Terry Zester heard and SAW angels. Carl confirmed her visions (and he was VERY friendly with her.) There were prophecies about "cataclysmic events" within and from outside the church--some thought that the Maine Yankee Nuclear plant would implode (re: Three Mile Island). There was the claim that Betty McIntire was raised from the dead. There were all sorts of claims for supernatural healing, and CHS had special "Kathryn Kuhlman" style meetings at John Hancock Hall in Boston for the purpose of replicating those types of supernatural healings as he got "words of knowledge" from the stage. There was the claim that CHS had a particular gift for "discerning of spirits" to the point that he knew your thoughts and that God would "give him things" about you--hence people would always ask him for life direction. GG was always a ministry that while it SAID it didn't make a big deal out of the 'miraculous' continually referred to these as validation of CHS's special position as "God's Man". | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1796 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Just out of curiosity, whatsup (because I do agree with you that not everyone there was corrupt and but I would say that some good things were taught--along with a lot of error) what sort of church are you in now? (Not asking for the name and town--just the type of church). | ||
| whatsup Advanced Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 561 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Well, I stand corrected...now that you mention those things, Cordell, I do remember the "words of knowledge" in services and things like that. I guess I was thinking more of sensational types of signs, the theatrics that some churches put on with people falling over and shouting out in tongues. That type of thing never happened at GG, although there were more subtle claims of supernatural things as you mentioned. I have been to different churches since I left GG and have seen some of these theatrics and it really turned me off. One thing I find really annoying is the teaching that after you are saved you have to be "baptized in the spirit", which they mean to speak in tongues...and they call people up and lay hands on them and try to "coach" them to do this. I go to a church now where I believe the pastor is pretty balanced in what he teaches overall. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3867 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.137 |
Whatsup's post March 13, 2007 - 3:24 pm pretty much says it all. Angels singing are not a validation of anything concerning any ministry except their own. (even they have to be tested.1Jo 4:1) It's the Word that is most important. } | ||
| sandy_point New member Username: sandy_point Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 4.230.108.200 |
I was there to hear the numerous threats that the Wiscasset Nuclear plant would blow up and bring destruction to all carl's enemies, when Betty McIntire was supposedly raised from the dead, and was witness to his many so called 'gifts' of prophecy and discernment. I am sorry to say as a 'cult baby' raised in that mess I waited to see if God would give him the red or green light on my upcoming marriage. | ||
| sandy_point New member Username: sandy_point Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 4.230.108.200 |
Now I try not to fall into traps where I am not expected (or allowed) to use my God given critical thinking skills. I enjoy the discussion here (some of it). No one else seems to catch what I found disturbing. Jim Bramlett's letter to a gg pastor where he states: "In the past I have found that God resists scientific inquiry by mere humans about His reality and works. It is probably an insult to Him." Again, I am asking: Why would scientific inquiry be an insult to God? Is not this an example of suppressing deductive reasoning? This Jim Bramlett is after all the man who started this promotional plum for gg. Who is he anyway? Why does he track down instances of angelic singing? Why does he presume that using our minds to inquire into what we find hard to accept would insult God? Is he a past member of gg? Is he the Jim Bramlett of www.bramlett.org and Jim Bramlett Ministries out of Memphis, TN? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1800 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
You know sandy (and we must know one another) I agree on your point concerning science. If one reads the 139th Psalm how can anyone not at least desire to enquire into the science of human anatomy? How can anyone read the other Psalms and disregard the wonder of discovering the creation. No honest Christian calls scientific enquiry 'insulting'. (Message edited by cordell on March 14, 2007) | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 206 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
Sandy Point, Jim Bramlett runs the "choicesforliving" website: http://www.choicesforliving.com/. A secondary homepage for his site is "The World's Greatest Truths" at http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/ which in turn links to his bio information, etc. "Scientific inquiry" is anathema to many fundamentalist type Christians, whenever the scientific reports question, challenge or dare to contradict the Bible. Blind faith is enough for them, and any questioning of their beliefs is deemed heresy... Whether anyone reading here thinks Jim's site matters or not, his gg/angels page reports over 60,000 hits. A google search indicates the news story Minutus originally referenced to start this thread has been reproduced on scores of other websites... | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3870 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.207 |
If we're not supposed to "reason" then we must be un-reasonable. } | ||
| kupski Member Username: kupski Post Number: 90 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.99.93.236 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E | ||
| gone_to_pa New member Username: gone_to_pa Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.207.64.124 |
Wow, And I thought Duke up in York was telling the truth when he said that one night they heard the Trump of God accross the cornfield outback. I missed the angels singing at his church, but am I weird because I think " Monkey See, Monkey Do" ?? GTP | ||
| rocketman New member Username: rocketman Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 74.70.240.47 |
Yeah, yeah, I thought I heard angels singing when Carlie preached on the "Blood of Christ" in the S.B. gymnasium. I was up in the bleachers next to the big fans, but I thought I heard something. (The moment was quite spiritually charged) However, it's nothing anyone could prove today. The whole Idea of them putting something on the web that is supposed to be angels... it sounds like the article next to "Bat-boy invited by aliens to the White House, Becomes US envoy to Mars" Not that it did or didn't happen... just that it's like advertising to the 'true believers'. | ||
| shat_happens Junior Member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.59.1.234 |
Just for Neil... http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2007/03/truth-about-where-neils-been-hiding-as.html |
