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nwmomike (nwmomike)
Intermediate Member
Username: nwmomike
Post Number: 196
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.24.179.29
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 3:20 pm: | 
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TOUCH NOT MINE ANNOINTED:
Too bad people can't examine text within a context to see what it REALLY teaches:
Touch not mine anointed
Advocates of such authority assume that Scripture supports their view. Their key biblical proof text is Psalm 105:15: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm" (KJV). But a close examination of this passage reveals that it has nothing to do with challenging the teachings of church leaders.
It first needs to be noted that the Old Testament phrase "the Lord's anointed" is typically used to refer to the kings of Israel (1 Sam. 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2 Sam. 1:14, 16; 19:21; Ps. 20:6; Lam. 4:20), at times specifically to the royal line de-scended from David (Pss. 2:2; 18:50; 89:38, 51), and not to prophets and teachers. While the text does also mention prophets, in the context of Psalm 105 the reference is undoubtedly to the patriarchs in general (vv. 8-15; cf. 1 Chron. 16:15-22), and to Abraham (whom God called a prophet) in particular (Gen. 20:7). It is therefore debatable whether this passage can be applied to select leaders within the body of Christ.
Even if the text can be applied to certain church leaders today, in the context of this passage the words "touch" and "do harm" have to do with inflicting physical harm upon someone. Psalm 105:15 is therefore wholly irrelevant to the issue of questioning the teachings of any of God's "anointed."
Moreover, even if we accepted this misinterpretation of Psalm 105:15, how are we to know who not to "touch"; that is, who God's anointed and prophets are? Because they and their followers say they are? On such a basis we would have to accept the claims of Sun Myung Moon, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, and virtually all cult leaders to be prophets. Because they reputedly perform miracles? The Antichrist and False Prophet themselves will possess that credential (Rev. 13:13-15; 2 Thess. 2:9)! No, God's representatives are known above all by their purity of character and doctrine (Tit. 1:7-9; 2:7-8; 2 Cor. 4:2; cf. 1 Tim. 6:3-4). If a would-be spokesperson for God cannot pass the biblical tests of character and doctrine, we have no basis for accepting his or her claim, and no reason to fear that in criticizing his or her teaching we might also be rejecting God.
Finally, if any individual Christian is to be considered anointed, then so every Christian must be as well. For this is the only sense in which the term is used (apart from Christ) in the New Testament: "You [referring to all believers] have an anointing from the Holy One" (1 John 2:20, NIV). Thus, no believer can justifiably claim any special status as God's "untouchable anointed" over other believers.
Nobody's teachings or practices are beyond biblical judgment — especially influential leaders. Biblically, authority and accountability go hand in hand (e.g., Luke 12:48). The greater the responsibility one holds, the greater the accountability one has before God and His people.
Teachers should be extremely careful not to mislead any believer, for their calling carries with it a strict judgment (James 3:1). They should therefore be grateful when sincere Christians take the time to correct whatever erroneous doctrine they may be preaching to the masses. And should the criticisms be unfounded they should respond in the manner prescribed by Scripture: to correct misguided doctrinal opposition with gentle instruction (2 Tim. 2:25).
There is of course another side to this issue: criticism often can be sinful, leading to rebellion and unnecessary division. Christians should respect the leaders that God has given them (Heb. 13:17). Theirs is the task of assisting the church in its spiritual growth and doctrinal understanding (Eph. 4:11-16). At the same time believers should be aware that false teachers will arise among the Christian fold (Acts 20:28; 2 Pet. 2:1). This makes it imperative for us to test all things by Scripture, as the Bereans were commended for doing when they examined the words of the apostle Paul (Acts 17:11).
The Bible is useful not only for preaching, teaching, and encouragement, but for correcting and rebuking (2 Tim. 4:2). In fact, Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God and warning others of false teachings and teachers (Acts 20:26-28; cf. Ezek. 33:7-9; 34:1-10).
We would do well to heed Scripture's repeated warnings to be on guard for false teachings (e.g., Rom. 16:17-18; cf. 1 Tim. 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Tim. 1:13-14; Tit. 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to believers (2 Tim. 4:6). With so much scriptural support, such actions can hardly be considered unbiblical.
From:CRI - http://www.equip.org/free/DP065.htm |
nwmomike (nwmomike)
Intermediate Member
Username: nwmomike
Post Number: 197
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.24.179.29
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
|
My Response From Another Group:
I wrote this when dealing with another group on here. ********************
Response to “Touch Not Mine Anointed” Teachings
I’ve seen way too many instances of evangelists and preaches, especially many on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) use the phrase “touch not mine anointed” (I Ch. 16:22, Ps. 105:15). It’s usually used in a sense that anyone that might think of criticizing their teaching is in danger. Sometimes using in conjunction "Judge not lest ye be judged" [Matt 7:1]. But I’m focusing on just one here. Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and many others have long terrorized God's people with "touch not mine anointed" if anyone dared question them or their teaching.
Example:
In September of 1991 at the Anaheim Convention Center, some of Benny Hinn's statements were even more dangerous and alarming. Hinn said,
All of us make mistakes. All of us are bound to err. But woe to the man and woe to the station and woe to the group that will expose the nakedness of the man of God to the world. You know, I'll tell you something. I'm not supposed to, but the Holy Ghost is upon me, and I think I need to. The day is coming when those that attack us will drop dead. You say, "What did you say?" I speak this under the anointing of the Spirit. Can I tell you something? Don't touch God's servants; it's deadly. God says, "Touch not My anointed." I'm not afraid to tell you what I think. I owe nothing to no man and don't you dare touch Morris Cerullo; don't touch Rex Humbard; don't touch Billy Graham; don't touch Larry Lea; don't touch Oral Roberts or Richard Roberts; don't touch them. Pray for them. Pray, pray, pray! I speak this under the anointing. Woe to you that touch God's servants. You are going to pay, and the day will come (the Lord said this to me) when I will punish instantly those who touch My chosen. They will fear us. Hear this! Today they mock us; tomorrow they will fear us. When you deal with the supernatural as I do, God allows your eyes to see things that most of you don't see and maybe that you should not see.
The Examination:
Okay, so the first thing you have to ask yourself is he using a correct interpretation of the scripture? Here is taken from a CRI report:
*******
In addition to certain "word-faith" teachers, such sentiments may be found among various groups involved with SHERHERDING and other forms of AUTHORITARIAN rule (from diverse "five-fold" ministries to a host of large and small "fringe churches"). The leaders of these groups are commonly regarded as having a unique gift and calling that entitles them to unconditional authority. To dispute any of their words or deeds is not distinguished from questioning God Himself.
Advocates of such authority assume that Scripture supports their view. Their key biblical proof text is Psalm 105:15: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm" (KJV). But a close examination of this passage reveals that it has nothing to do with challenging the teachings of church leaders.
It first needs to be noted that the Old Testament phrase "the Lord's anointed" is typically used to refer to the kings of Israel (1 Sam. 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2 Sam. 1:14, 16; 19:21; Ps. 20:6; Lam. 4:20), at times specifically to the royal line de-scended from David (Pss. 2:2; 18:50; 89:38, 51), and not to prophets and teachers. While the text does also mention prophets, in the context of Psalm 105 the reference is undoubtedly to the patriarchs in general (vv. 8-15; cf. 1 Chron. 16:15-22), and to Abraham (whom God called a prophet) in particular (Gen. 20:7). It is therefore debatable whether this passage can be applied to select leaders within the body of Christ.
The rest of the article is at:
http://www.equip.org/free/DP065.htm
The Response:
A quick study about false prophets, testing the spirits, exposing false teachings, and many such warnings would indicate that it is commanded to watch what you’re listening to. Also we are told in Acts 17:11 regarding the Bereans: “These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. “
This was Paul commending people he was speaking to when they tested what he himself was teaching.
Also if you remember Samuel confronted David of his sin of killing Uriah.
So clearly touching God’s anointed had to do with physical harm. Even if it was to be taken in a new testament sense we are God’s anointed. As soon as you say one person has an anointing more than another you create a class of “the haves” the “have nots” and one person over another.
Clearly scripture teaches to test all things. Read through most of the epistles and teachings that Paul gave to Timothy and Peter gave. It’s contstant warnings against teaching wrong doctrine, false teachers, etc.
The Exercise:
Now so someone says “Well, how do I know you’re telling the truth?”. Test it. One of THE biggest problems people make mistakes with in interpreting scripture or using scripture to make points is context. Context meaning - The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
Cults especially are bad about this. They give you stream after stream of verses that seem to say the same phrase or might appear to teach some point they are trying to get across. But what you do it take one scripture, go back and read the whole chapter and in some cases may be you need to read a chapter before or after to get the context. Usually you can get the sense of the context pretty easy. Especially if you learn to ask questions of the text. Like: To whom was it written?, What issue is being addressed here? Is there some lesson about God that I can learn? Am I understand the text the way it was intended? What are my biases going into the text? Is there other text in scripture elsewhere that contradicts what I think is the interpretation?
These are a few. But going back like that you find out like things like “touch not mine anointed” do not teach what someone is saying they are.
But how many people go back and compare what a teacher, pastor, or evangelist and for that matter what you hear on TV like Peter Jennings “Jesus and Paul”. Don’t get me started on that one. I see people listening to people like Benny Hinn and watch his crowd say amen, nod their heads in agreement and here I’m about ready to come unglued at some of his blasphemous words that come out of his mouth.
Here is an online tool : http://bible.crosswalk.com/
Be sure to click on include study tools. Search a selected scripture or a whole chapter. Along side will be commentaries from different past commentators. These have the benefit of given you a perspective on a piece of scripture that you might have overlooked.
Final Thought:
The problem with teachings touting not touching someone who is supposedly anointed short-circuits people’s reasoning skills and commands of scripture to test all things in fear of judging God’s anointed. Instead they sit there taking it all in being duped by whatever the teacher is throwing at them. There is absolutely no need to say things like “touch not mine anointed” or warning against evaluating a teaching. In fact any good pastor or teacher will want you to test what they say against scripture. When I hear phrases like “touch not mine anointed”, “blaspheming the Holy Spirit”, “Judge Not” and a few others red flags fly all over the place. It’s probably more like to be followed by enough heresy to make someone who is familiar with scripture vomit.
Bottom line is be SO familiar with scripture and the principles of scripture that you spot error the second it shows up. One book I highly recommend and it’s relatively small on interpreting scripture is “How To Read The Bible For All It’s Worth” by Gordon D. Fee and I can’t remember the other co-author. It goes through talking about context, historical settings, etc. and will give you an excellent start.
Here are some other references with a note that I may not agree with everything they teach, and haven’t examined their whole site unless I say so. But gives you enough of a variety to get the just of it and give different aspects that I didn’t speak to here:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/ministry.html#charar I love this site as a resource on cults and religions.
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0148a.txt Part of CRI which I strongly endorse.
http://www.gty.org/Broadcast/transcripts/52-34.htm this one is a great transcript. Go back up one level to transcripts and read the other sections. I highly recommend this all the way around. This is John McArthur. I agree with most of his teachings and really only disagree on minor issues which there is no reason to divide over.
http://www.banner.org.uk/wof/moreno4.html
http://www.antithesis.com/features/breaking_free_03.html This one is awesome and speaks not only to “touch not mine anointed” but to abusive control and breaking free. Look at the bottom and click on the introduction and the other chapters. They are quite enlightening especially someone not familiar with churches that are authoritarian in nature in leadership.
http://www.pfo.org/dont-con.htm
http://www.equip.org/free/DU250.pdf Adobe Acrobat file regarding “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” for those that are concerned. Again from CRI. No, I don’t work for CRI. I just know they are biblically sound and are a voice of truth in a world of cults and false teachings.
http://www.ondoctrine.com/0faqs013.htm
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/articles.html This one has a few articles on touch not mine anointed teachings but has a few on abuse of authority in church that is great reading too.
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/acctblty.htm Watchman is a group that monitors and reports on cults and various religious groups. Lots of great resources including a couple on The Bible Speaks and GGWO.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/touch_not_mine_anointed.html Also talks about discernment which is a key to protecting yourself against all sorts of wild teachings out there. I haven’t had a chance to read through it thoroughly myself.
http://www.geocities.com/balancedword/cont/tnta.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/abuse3.html
http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/records/whoareyo.htm Excellent group with tons of information.
Well, so much for being short. Lol I could have wrote a book I think.
*****************
You also examine the old and new testament of what God said in relation to false teaching, false teachers, etc. and it clearly gives authority to the church to refute and expose them.
Michael |
nwmomike (nwmomike)
Intermediate Member
Username: nwmomike
Post Number: 198
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.24.179.29
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 3:32 pm: |
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Quote:Those of you who are dissing Creflo Dollar obviously have never heard or read "Thou shalt not touch God's anointed."
Response: What reference? It does not say exactly "thou shalt not touch God's annoited". But it does say you shouldn't. But you have to answer the question what does it mean to not touch? What was the context? It was NEVER used in a sense in addressing doctrinal issues. If David was God's annointed why did Samuel confront him?
Quote: Creflo Dollar is an anointed man of God.
Response: If that is supposed to be true then why does he preach a false gospel?
Quote:Maybe you should try reading his books, study his ministry and life before passing judgement on him.
Response: We judge the fruit he produces, which is his what he is teaching which is a false gospel and a false god that cannot save.
Quote:If you are a true Christian you would know that we are not to judge our brother, that is for God alone to do.
Response: You need to study about judging. There is a right way to judge and a wrong way. People clearly need to study scripture to make the right distinction. NO, we cannot judge a person's motivation or ultimate destination. But we can judge a person's teaching and actions. Scripture clearly gives justification for that.
Quote:The color of love by Dr. Dollar is a wonderful book that everyone would benefit from reading. We need more pastors, teachers, and ministries like Dr. Dollars. }}}
Response: We have too many already, but worse yet people who are too dull to "study to shy thyself approved of God". to recognize when they are being fed a false gospel and a false god and being deceived right under their noses and nod their head.
Michael |
gsrh (gsrh)
New member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.67.142
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
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Here is the prophets info.
Server: ns.cmc.co.denver.comcast.net
Address: 68.87.66.196
Name: library74.gl.iit.edu
Address: 216.47.136.187 |
gsrh (gsrh)
New member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.67.142
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:32 pm: |
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Paul V. Galvin Library
35 W. 33rd St.
Chicago, IL 60616
312.567.3616 |
gsrh (gsrh)
New member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 8
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.67.142
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:39 pm: |
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22LODELIA+TATE%22&btnG=Search |
aford (aford)
New member
Username: aford
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.141.128.116
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
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If I were to be trying to walk in the footsteps of Jesus, would I be posting derogative comments about ministers? I attend a church that has the same type accusations made about it all the time. That church and the Pastor will remain nameless here though because it is not my job to condemn anybody! That's God's job only!!! If most that claim to be children of God truly are, maybe they should put all of this energy being wasted badmouthing others into something positive and do His work! |
gsrh (gsrh)
New member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.74.159
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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Lansing School District USSIG-64-128-141-64-26 (NET-64-141-128-64-1)
64.141.128.64 - 64.141.128.127 |
kingdomfocus (kingdomfocus)
New member
Username: kingdomfocus
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 209.29.83.148
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
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Hello cut and paste friends, Has anybody here even built a church membership before or do you just like to slander everyone else. And whats up with the links are there any free thinker out there anymore. Or am I expected to believe every web site that can indoctrinate people so easy that there mind controlling tactics are just as effective. Knowledge will still abound but one message will never end love your neighbour as yourself?????????????? |
sharon (sharon)
Intermediate Member
Username: sharon
Post Number: 153
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 142.177.93.40
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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Dear Prophet... I am sorry that Jeffery is not here today so I shall have to do. Stop asking for money it is unbecoming to a prophet. Also it is nice if actual prophesies come true. O Yes and can you please stop screaming you are hurting my ears. I am sure Jeffery will be back tomorrow to greet you each and every time you post. Its one of the reasons we love him. Such a hard worker. |
mikko (mikko)
New member
Username: mikko
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.242.21.100
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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charging money now to come see you as in selling TICKETS to your show ...shame shame shame moneychangers} |
sharon (sharon)
Intermediate Member
Username: sharon
Post Number: 169
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 142.177.12.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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themessiahiscoming .. Hello false prophet, You must give your crown to me as I predicted you would be back asking for money. I told my dog that last night. He did not think that you would but I said oh yes, she needs money to pay off her visa. I also would like to mention that I will tell you the future for free . The messiah is coming to all and he does not need you to scream about it and spaming everyone. You are making enemies instead of converts with your tactics. There see and no charge. May God Be With You. |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Junior Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Sharon. I don't know about any one else, but you hit yhe nail on the head. You can't go around trying to scare peolpe into following Christ!
I'm going to bed now Sharon, not feeling well. |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Junior Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:55 pm: |
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Sharon. I don't know about any one else, but you hit the nail on the head. You can't go around trying to scare peolpe into following Christ!
I'm going to bed now Sharon, not feeling well. |
sharon (sharon)
Intermediate Member
Username: sharon
Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 142.177.94.62
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:32 am: |
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themessiahiscoming..Does not your Father have spell check? You are supposed to represent God, so spell words correctly. If you do not know how to spell a word go and look it up so you do not shame the Lord. |
malichi (malichi)
New member
Username: malichi
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.160.53.134
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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I've been member of WCCI for just over a year. I was shocked at first at what I didn't know that Creflo taught me about my authority, prosperity, ability to be like Jesus and speak things into existence, sowing and reaping... then he (Creflo) made the mistake of telling me that the order of being is God, Man, Angels and that the word translated Angels (elohim) in a Psalm should have been trnanslated God. From there I started reading for myself and found that most of what we have been told is false doctrine.
I have a question about our authority. For those who have heard the teaching first hand and often repeated... How could God, who lost His authority here on earth (up to but not including heaven itself or Satan could have turned his lights out) because Satan stole it from man who God gave it to and He didn't have an "earthsuit", be able to bring about the flood on the earth?
How was Jesus able to send out the 70 (72) and give them authority if he didn't get the authority back until after he died and supposedly went to hell?
The answers lead you to learning to read things in context which will lead you konw how to properly study, interpret, understand, and apply scripture.
I would love to meet with anyone currently at WCCI who could help me "in all my getting, get understanding" around several other doctrines that we are being taught. |
arron (arron)
Intermediate Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 201
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.45.188
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 3:34 pm: |
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i do not beleive in the prosperty gospel. if THE LORD tells me or leads me to give some thing i will and when i do i am always blessed. i pay my tihtes and give offerings but i do not beleive in this prosperty gospel |
sisko (sisko)
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.211.202.179
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 12:11 pm: |
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I'm new to this discussion forum. I've been reading some of the comments concerning Creflo Dollar. Those who consider him a false teacher/prophet are correct in their analysis. Mr. Dollar is simply a false teacher who cleverly takes scriptures out of context and uses subtle psychological manipulation to extort money from his followers. His false teachings on tithing coupled with his deceptive prosperity gospel has racked in millions of dollars. |
malichi (malichi)
New member
Username: malichi
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.160.53.134
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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Sisko, so let's say your wife really is getting something good out of the messages that Creflo teaches being able to ignore the contextual and actually get something positive from the messages. What do you do? I'm currently frustrated bc I can see how he violates scripture but she simply looks past the worse errors bc she feels God told her to go to this church. I will say that since we started going there that my relationship with God has grown by leaps and bound because I spend my time researching the truth behind the errors and am zealous for the truth of scripture and proper Biblical interpretation. |
sisko (sisko)
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.211.178.26
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:57 am: |
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Malichi,
All false teachers mix lies with the truth; thus there is something always positive with their messages. This is what makes their deceptive tactics difficult to discern to those who are are not skilled in proper biblical interpretation. In any event, if I was in your shoes, I would hold personal Bible study with my wife and point her to various scriptures that discusses separation from false teachers. One example is the following:
Romans 16:17-18 -- I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teachings you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetities. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. (NIV)
In addition, I would point to 1 Timothy 6:3-10 to show my wife that Mr. Dollar is a man who is "conceited and understands nothing". A man who is "of corrupt mind, been robbed of the truth and who thinks that godliness is a means to financial gain." According to the Bible, and not Mr. Dollar, true richness(prosperity) is living a godly life and being content with what you have. How many times have we heard Mr. Dollar preach a sermon based on contentment (1Tim. 6:6-8)? Never!
Now...if my wife refuses to acknowledge and comply with the Word, I would kindly, with love let her know that she is being disobedient.
If my wife alleges that God told her to attend WCCI, I would have to question that because why would God lead a person to a false teacher when His word clearly commands us to separate from those who teach false doctrine?
In regards to the growth of your relationship with God since attending WCCI -- my viewpoint on that issue is: It is probably due to your motives of searching for the absolute truth rather than a direct connection with Dollar's teachings. |
malichi (malichi)
New member
Username: malichi
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.160.53.134
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 9:25 am: |
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Sisko, thanks for those verses, I had read them before and forgot where they were.
If God did lead her there then it was to wake me up (prior to this I never read the Bible) and to bring me closer to Him.
Creflo actually did teach on Contentment this past Sunday. I wish I had the tape (the message is on the web, let me know if you want to hear it). Near the end of a lesson on Jealousy he said that Paul was not content with his situation in Phil 4:11 but was content that "my God can provide for all your needs according to his riches and glory" (Phil 4:19).
I was amazed and shocked at how he read on past the thought of contentment and then ripped this verse (Phil 4:19) out of context and applied it to Paul being content instead of the Philipian church being sustained for being supportive of Paul. You would have to hear it to belive it.
Thanks again for your comments and pray for me and my family, mostly my wife. |
sisko (sisko)
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.211.178.79
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
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Malichi,
You are more than welcomed for the aforementioned passages of scripture.
As with Job, I guess Mr. Dollar is calling Paul a liar for the purpose of promoting his (Dollar) doctrine of greed (The Prosperity Gospel). While it is incredible how Dollar spins the scriptures, his tactics no longer surprises me.
The Bible makes it clear that we should watch our lives and doctrine closely (1Tim. 4:16) because the time will come when leaders in the church will not adhere to sound doctrine (2 Tim. 4:3-4). Many of us are, or were incognizant of this (including yours truly at one time). And as a result, false teachers (wolves in sheepskin) have been taking advantage of those who are unaware of their deceptive and clever tactics. In instances such as these, it may take a bad experience (wake-up call), for us to realize that we need to read and STUDY the Bible for ourselves and ask God for wisdom to undersstand. The Berean Christians, who were considered of noble character, searched the scriptures daily to test the teachings of the great Apostle Paul (Acts 17:11). We need to do likewise, so that we will not be deceived by every wind of doctrine.
I give praise to God that He has blessed you and opened your eyes to the truth. I encourage you to continue to stand strong in the Lord and the truth of His Word. You family will also be in my prayers.
Peace & Blessings!
(Message edited by Sisko on April 19, 2005) |
bear (bear)
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Username: bear
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.237.154
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:18 am: |
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I am also not in agreement with many WOF preachers, even though I am a proponent of having faith to please God according to Romans.
I am reading many comments against prosperity, and at the same time the cry to preach Jesus to the world. I have a question: Where is the money coming from? It takes $$$ to send missionaries, build church's, train leaders, and yes, give to the poor. (When Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, it was not because he opposed money, but their motives; their heart).
Several preachers have perverted the message in order to gain. That does NOT mean that prosperity is not scriptural. 1 John says that he wishes that we prosper and be in health, even as our souls proper. Health, souls and ...? yes, our material needs
Being poor is not a sign of godliness, neither is being wealthy.
Those of us who are blessed with a great income do need to give to the ministry. We need to support our church first. ( yes I believe in the tithe, It was established 400 years before the law, and, as with other items in the scriptures, must be translated into a mondern day equiv).
Jesus said that "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil". You can be a millionaire and not love money. You can love money and not have two dimes to rub together.
A complete study of history will prove that, while he was not a millionaire, Jesus was not poor. Don't just listen to a poverty minded pastor preach an untruth. Check that teaching against historical facts which prove the validity of the bible. Any real student of the bible knows that interpreting scripture is a combination of textual, socialogical, cultural and historical critique. Sad to say, many so-called bible teachers are uneducated in true biblical exegesis. What this produces is what I call the Gutter effect. In this case please note the example:
Every road has two ditches, the road represents balance in teaching. The first ditch are those who pervert the properity message for gain. The second are those who have the christian poverty mentality.
I have spent many years ministering to children, teens and adults. I know that it takes money to run a ministry. I have been on several missions trips. I know that counless days of fundraising bring one to the conclusion that it takes money to run a ministry.
Note: When the kings from the east came to see Jesus, and they honored him with their gifts, they gave him a Kings portion. Mary and Joseph had enough money to travel to Egypt, and live their for a time. That my friends is unperverted prosperity.
The only problem with a prosperity message is when it is perverted.
What is better, to be poor, always praying that God will bail you out, or to trust God to give you a Job with potential to create wealth (Deut 28), which in turn enables you to be able to support ministries that are seeing the lost saved? I make a great living, yet I live below my means.
Many on this thread boast of the importance of reaching the lost. How much did you give to your church last year? How many teens and adults were you able to send on a missions trip last year? How many missionaries do you support? How many homeless shelters due you support financially or by working with them? How many of you paid you pastor's salary so that he can take care of his family and bills, enabling him to focus on the ministry? I have found that those who have the loudest voice against prosperity are those who give the least.
Truth: Many WOF ministers have perverted the Prosperity message.
Truth: God's message of true prosperity is in the bible
Truth: I am writing this message to share an opinion, NOT to attack anyone. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
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Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.92.201
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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I cannot believe all the deceived people on this thread who think Creflo Dollar is a christian let alone preaching the gospel of grace.
To begin with Creflo Dollars doctrine is not different than any "word of faith" heretical teachers. He is a clone of Kenneth Hagins, a cookie cutter preacher out for a buck. Someone posted that everyone has donated all this stuff to Creflo, so that somehow makes it all legit.. did the Lord Jesus Christ even have a bed to sleep on.. NOOO .. he had no place to lay his head, the bible says..
I am soooo sick of this American free will religious mentality, where everything is judged by money money money and be a big success in all realms.. HEY WAKEUP.. the apostles NOR the Lord Jesus Christ preached.. health wealth, or prosperity let alone "word of faith" heresies, which Creflo adheres to.
The very fact that he has such a large following proves he is a fakester and shyster.. playing up to humanistic desires and human ego. He has everyone wrapped up in the palm of his hands.. because he is tickling their ears.. telling the people what they want to hear... health wealth and prosperity....
I remember a pentacostal church I was checking out years ago, where in their statement of faith they even used scripture to try and prove if you were not wealthy and prosperous in all areas of life then somehow there is something wrong with your faith and your in sin. WELL I got news for these word of faith teachers like Creflo and the rest of his brood of devils out there.. JESUS CHRIST was poor materially in this word because he was too buy ministering to soul with the TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL.. something CREFLO and his buddies at TBN dont have a clue about. TBN network loves Creflo and Creflo loves TBN I am sure.. why wouldn't they .. they are all cut from the same cloth.
Some things need to be based and exposed and this preacher is one.. what a snake.. sucking in the simple and those who do not have a clue about what the gospel of grace is about and what true discipleship demands.
Even his name.. Creflo DOLLAR???? .. a last name like Dollar is embarrasing if not so funny in light of what his life stands for.. a pagan dollar bill.. thats all.. this man has nothing worth listening to.. I have listened to him on tv in his benny hinn look alike pin stripe "mafia suit".
Antichrist will love such preachers when he comes on the scene.. that much i am sure of.. these word of faith preacher will fall right in line when the antichrist blows his trumpet to come rally for his cause. |
bear (bear)
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Username: bear
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.233.197
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 7:43 pm: |
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First, you are deceived when you say Jesus was poor. He was not filthy rich, but he was not poor. You, like so many misunderstand the context of the verse where he has no place to lay his head. He traveled all the time, did not have a lot of possesions, but poor, not true! You need to check out your history before making such unscriptural claims.
I am not a Creflo Dollar fan, in fact, I can not stand him. But, GOD DOES PROSPER!!!!!!
It takes money to build churches, send missionaries, etc. Poverty minded people, like yourself, are the same as thsose who pervert the prosperity message.
How often do you preach the gospel?
How many people have you led to the Lord?
How much do you give to your church every year? To missions?
My guess, not many and little if any. |
david_munson (david_munson)
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Username: david_munson
Post Number: 4
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Posted From: 63.159.216.89
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:26 am: |
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}First, you are deceived when you say Jesus was poor. He was not filthy rich, but he was not poor. You, like so many misunderstand the context of the verse where he has no place to lay his head. He traveled all the time, did not have a lot of possesions, but poor, not true! You need to check out your history before making such unscriptural claims. BEAR.
Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.Matthew 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee. If Jesus had money on Him,why did he have this fish caught?He said"that take, and give unto them for me and thee". Why also did he say"Luke 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece". The early church was persecuted so that it would spread the Gospel to all the world.Riches have a way of undermining God's purpose for an individuals life,since they no longer have a great need for His provisions.Luke 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.Job 36:15 He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression. Proverbs 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches. As for Jesus having wealth,2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. Rich in the knowledge of God's great grace.He offers a healthy spiritual life of personal fellowship with Him and His body of believers here and now.That we might have something to offer those that are without. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
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Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.179
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:32 am: |
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Bear you sound like a "health and wealth" gospel advocate, something I assure you I am NOT sucked in by. Jesus Christ and the apostles provided for this mission and cause. Christ worked before his ministry as a carpenter, and the apostle paul was a tentmaker during his ministry. I hardly see how either Christ of any of the apostles could of accumulated great wealth or mammon during their ministry, they were too busy doing the work of God, to be wrapped up in material pursuits.
Now to your comment about "GOD DOES PROSPER"...
the apostle John states in his 3rd epistle:
"beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as they soul prospereth."....3 John 2
Pentacostals.. charismatics.. word of faith heretics have taken that verse way out of proportion. Sure God wants his children to prosper, but HOW is the question. When Jesus Christ stated flatly.. YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MAMMON -- Matthew 6:24b.. it is abundantly clear.. the slant and emphasis of Christ was NOT to preach and lead his sheep into materialism and storing up wealth in this world.. he also states.. LAY NOT UP FOR YOURSELVES TREASURES IN THIS WORLD.. what does that mean bear??? you have to consider all scriptures together.. not just take one scripture like 3 John 2 and make it sound like you want it to sound.
People like you get angry when your exposed as promoting wrong motives and a gospel that puts the emphasis on the bank account, and of course you do because your "evil eye" as Jesus warned about, is what is leading you down the path to hell.. evil eye of covetousness Christ warned about...
What does this verse mean to you bear.. IF THINE EYE BE EVIL.. Matthew 6:23... which Christ speaks in the context of hoarding treasures in this world and following after mammon.
You tell me to check out my history.. aahh I have been studying gospel history for over 20 years, I sure do not need your "prosperity mammon" version of Christs history thats for sure. Just how exactly do you think Christ was living during the time of his ministry anyways? Riding around in a 8 horse roman chariot with robes of fine linen and fairing with the finest food???? The fact is that the common people of Christs time were lowly meagre and persecuted people by the romans, so you version of history is quite blurred by modern "prosperity teachers" interpretations of Christ and the gospel.
As far as what you state about building churches, and missions etc etc with money, the majority of the church and mission building going on professing christendom is nothing more than works of the flesh, that God will expose anyways. Lot of dead works, devoid of the gospel of grace. Whatsoever God has not planted will be uprooted. So be careful who you give your money to, not everyone who claims to be a servant of Christ is what they claim to be. The majority are building their private little kingdoms and act like pariahs LORDING it over the flock, which Christ condemned in his actions.
Bear you have a lot to learn about mammon and the "love of money" being the root of all evil I think. Money itself is NOT evil, which is what you are accusing me of.. its the LOVE of it that is so detrimental to the cause of Christ. God sends money our way to use to provide for our own and then whats left over bless others with it IN OUR OWN COMMUNITIES FIRST... missionary works ALWAYS starts at home FIRST, in your own neighbourhood.
It makes me sick when I see these american mammon lovers giving great sums of money they horde up, and send a million dollars to Oral Roberts for those bronze praying hands, when they have not even shared the gospel with their next door neighbour, that is against the spirit and strategy of the books of acts.. where THEY PREACHED THE GOSPEL FIRST IN JERUSALEM... and then AFTER went to the surrounding areas.. but no in America they send their money first to africa and this country and that country.. and have not even taken care of business in their own backyards... thats appalling. Sure americans give tons of money, because they have so much of it stored up as their treasures on earth, but the qeustion I believe they will be asked by the Lord on judgment day.. is what motive did you give it in the first place.. was it to glorify your SELF and draw attention to yourself.. or was it to truly spread the gospel of grace? We should all ask ourselves that when we give.
So I dont need your lecturing about poverty mentality.. if you are truly serving Christ and doing his work, you wont have time for gucci shoes and rolex watches and the like and drive mercedes benz and live in million dollar mansions, and act like its nothing.
Im not preaching socialistic communism which I believe is what your trying to accuse me of, but I am talking about the motives in mens hearts. |
sufficientinhim (sufficientinhim)
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Username: sufficientinhim
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 139.76.128.68
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 3:28 pm: |
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{Wow very interesting, all that i've read. What do I think of "Creflo the Dollar"?
I think that Pastor Dollar can't help it if he was born with that last name. LOL
Thats the last name he was born with contrary to popular belief, (that he changed it). As someone mentioned in one of the posts I must re-inerate that same point. Ball players make ludacris amounts of money Labron James 96 million I think for an endorsement with Nikey. It is true one of the cars that Pastor Dollar drives is a Bentley or a Rolls,I'm not quite sure which, but my Pastor in South FLorida sowed that car as a gift. I was in that service when my pastor said he sowed that car into his spiritual fathers life (Pastor Dollar) "Some of us understand that it flows from the head down."
I also know that there is no way that Jesus wants us to live with barely enough or with just enough. When he came that we might have life and in an abundant manner. You might say abundant means joy and peace. Well, can you please tell me how you can have joy and peace when you aien't got no money to pay any of those bills and your looking out that window to see if the car is gone yet, or wondering when that eviction notice will be re-enforced. Jesus wants us to have more then enough. All the answers are in the word.
Jesus was paid whether you want to believe it or not. WHen they were about to crucify him they cast lots for his clothes. That lets us know that the clothes were nice not no k-mart special, there was a treasurer in his ministry now why do you need a treasure if there is no money? The greatest men of God were paid Abraham the bible says was (very rich in land and cattle") Joseph was paid, David had serious money, and Solomon well we all know he was paid, etc etc. The bible says "that those that teach the word of God must also live off of it." When we become rich it is to expand the kingdom of God but God does not mind us living good, smelling good, dressing good and driving good either. Especially if we say we are Christians. Now how does it look be honest now, me saying hey sister give your life to Jesus because he is a provider then you know i am broke, sick, and have no peace. Why would you want anything to do with my Lord. But when you know I was struggling then you see my bills paid for, you knew i was a mess emotionally and you see me with such peace then , you are going to be like hmmmmm I might want to hear about this Jesus you preach. Question? Would you get financial advice from Oprah or Bill Gates or would you get advice from Joe blow that can barely balance his checking account.You can't preach about total life prosperity if you aien't living it......bad English but i'm trying to keep it real..
Like Jesus said "the fruit" by there fruit you shall know them. If i'm Christian and am living and applying the word of God in my life there will be results in my life. I will have peace, I will have joy, my body will be well, i will not lack no good thing. It kills me when people want to associate being poor and calling it humilty this is not biblically correct. You are blessed to be a blessing. It is a great feeling to tell someone "look I know your struggling in paying your rent let me take care of that for you." Thats what it is all about giving, giving and giving some more. When you give, blessings run you down baby. Pastor can't help it if he gives and it is given back to him "pressed down shaken together and running over." He sowed a jet into Oral Roberts Ministry and God knows how much more that man gives that we don't know about. Now mind you that Jet is being used to spread the gospel all over this world. How can God not honor that? A true servant and giver, gives privately and discreetly. And God that sees and knows all things rewards you according to what you gave. I love my man of God he is a great blessing. I have been at World changers for one year and he has showed me how to be sufficient in My Lord and his word. The word, I said the word, has instilled in me a desire to serve Jesus. I said Jesus If i give i give because i love My Jesus not for Pastor even though i love pastor. I give to God now if it's via world changers which it should be since i get fed there (the word) then of course the church benefits from my giving whether they take my money and applie it to the light bill the phone bill, tv broadcast. I don't care i'm giving it to God. If i give to pastor it is still because i love God, if i give it to homeless person it is still because I love God, If i give it to single mother it's because i love God, or if i give it to my Mommy which i love so much(lol) it's still because i love God. We give because I Love GOD, GOD AND GOD AGAIN>>>>>>>>>>>he is why we live, why we eat why we are in our right minds so I give...........and I believe Pastor gives and he is paid because of the same reason because of "HIM".................................................................luv ya'll
We don't know only God knows. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 42
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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Dollar was not the last name that he was born with. Do your research.
Also, I would love to see members (more than a handful) who applied his 'prosperity' message and actually prospered. He should have a church full of millionaires/billionaires.
Also, the people who prospered should NOT be the people in the 'inner circle' if you will. He is going to make sure that his cronies prosper. Especially the ones who open businesses as a front for him because he can't have it in his name.
I know people who have been following him for years and they have not prospered financially. They have an abundance of faith so we can't blame that. Besides, can faith be measured? The people I have seen following these word of faith people are some of the most delusional people I have ever seen. They lie and embellish the truth and call it speaking things that be not as though they were. I call it a bald faced lie. They give and pledge money that they don't have and sit around and wait for God to send it. They send their mortgage/rent/bill money to make up the difference and then believe with all of their heart that God is going to give them a financial breakthrough because the pastor told them it was coming. When it doesn't manifest, they just say that it's on its way and borrow the money from angry family and friends who don't want them living with them. 10 years and tens of thousands of dollars later they are still waiting.
Makes me wonder if are they schizophrenic, delusional or brainwashed?
Which is worse, the state lottery or the church lottery? (Church lottery = give $1 and wait for your investment to return 100 fold or some other shenanigan they can think of.)
It sickens me to my stomach. They will all pay for their misdeeds and lies. |
bear (bear)
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Username: bear
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.239.224
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 11:11 pm: |
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To alpaomega the one who blasted me in my previous post, please allow me to comment:
1. I am not a proponent of the perverted prosperity gospel. I do however believe that God propers his people.
2. I live in a modest, ranch house worth $125,000 and drive a Dodge. I do not own a Rolex or Gucci shoes; Kenneth Coles, yes.
3. If you have truly studied history, you would actually be suprised.
4. I never said that Jesus was rich, nor did I discount the fact that he worked prior to ministry. However, he was not a dirt poor vagabond that poverty minded christians want to promote.
NOTE: God will also hold those people accountable who withheld money to further the preaching of the Gospel. Also, I am NOT talking about building golden churches with large praying hands. I am talking about preraching the gospel. IT TAKES MONEY TO REACH THE LOST OF THIS WORLD!
5. God does proper. When the scripture speaks about the love of money, not storing up treasure on earth, etc, it is reminding us to not put our faith in things, not that we can not have them. You are very properous to a person living in a third world country; shame on you!
6. I have been in and around ministry for years. I have been on several missions trips around the world, been through many building projects to make room for more people at our church, etc. IT TAKES MONEY TO LIVE LIFE AND TO DO THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY!!!!
7. I am NOT a fan of the WOF prosperity message, but I am even more opposed to the Christian poverty mentality.
8. I am taking a break from full time ministry in order to complete more schooling and prepare for my next phase of ministry. I am currently in a sales job that allows me to earn a great income. I am not just going to be happy with making $30,000 a year when I can make $60,000 or more, which I will. I am able to give so much more away and bless others, and besides, MOST PEOPLE with a family can not make it on $30,000 in our day. The bible says that God has given me the ability to create wealth.
9. Save quoting me all of the verses that you have clear ignorance on the context. "Give us today our daily bread" is a prayer for God's on going provision. Your application is that of a person on federal welfare. PLEASE do NOT insult me with your lack of true biblical exegesis.
NOTE: I did not say that because I have more faith that God is dumping money and possesions in my lap.
Please read my entire posts again before you attack. If you realize what I have truly written your attacks will not be as harsh. You appear to be a narrow minded person who does not understand contructive debate; that is typical of poverty minded christians. You are not going to convince me of anything by shallow attacks and uneducated biblical application.
Try again, and maybe I will respond. If you can not do so, well, it will be a waste of my time and energy to debate with you. |
powerful (powerful)
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Username: powerful
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 209.214.97.121
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
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gsrh,
I would like to know what research you have done? Creflo A. Dollar is a Jr. His father was Creflo A Dollar Sr. who worked for the city of Atlanta. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 45
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
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Poppa Dollar changed his name. Here are 2 links. Good Reading.
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf45.htm
(Message edited by GSRH on May 22, 2005) |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 46
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
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http://apostasywatch.com/_wsn/page13.html |
powerful (powerful)
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Username: powerful
Post Number: 2
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Posted From: 209.215.51.27
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:48 pm: |
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gsrh,
Wrong again. And I think that it would be safe to assume that you are wrong about many things. Would you like to meet the whole Dollar family, go to a family reunion, or would you enjoy continuing to be wrong? Have a blessed day. No need to reply, because you have been found to not be a creditable witness |
powerful (powerful)
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Username: powerful
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 209.215.51.27
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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gsrh,
Ha, Ha, Ha. Just read your links. Michael Smith was a minster at World Changer who started his own ministry about 3 years ago. He now pasters a church in Jacksonville, FL. You should attend, he is a great speaker, young guy with a great church. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 47
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 8:09 pm: |
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I am a very credible witness. The one thing that I do know for sure is that Creflo is the only one getting rich. But of course, you have prospered under his ministry and are a trillionaire. Funny how the only thing you addressed is the name issue. I must be right about the other issues. Thanks for the dialogue. Go sow your seeds you holy trillionaire. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 48
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 8:11 pm: |
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Also, I will research this so called minister in Florida. No need for me to attend his church or WCCI. I would rather burn my cash than give it to the thieves in the temple. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 49
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
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You would think that this young minister who prospered under WCCI would be able to afford a website. If he has been pastoring for 3 years, you would think that he would have the foresight to reach out to the masses via the modern technology available. |
bear (bear)
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Username: bear
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.236.115
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
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gsrh
I am curious, what do you do for a living? With your mindset, I wounder, are you on welfare? I am not asking to be antagonistic, but I am interested. Also, do you refuse a raise? If you do not, then in essence you are being hypocritical.
Prosperity is not evil. Perverting the scripture to get rich, well, yes that is evil. |
saint_2 (saint_2)
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Username: saint_2
Post Number: 1
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Posted From: 207.237.218.48
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
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I am a new member of WCCNY. I have in the past attend Dr. Dollar's ministry whenever he was in NY. He ministers the word to me in such a way, that I receive it, for that is my prayer before service starts, that I be open and receiptive to receive.
If anyone go into a service to critize, they will not reap the benefit.One word from God can have different meaning for different people, according to who is open and receiptive to receive what God wants you to know at that time and if you are saved.
Dr. Dollar is a great teacher of the gospel,you know, that the annointing is all over him. I thank God that He gave us the right o choose. It is up to us to follow His teachings, and choose righteousness. If we have aught against anyone, we need to pray for them, As saints of God, that is what we are to do. To all of my sisters and brothers in the Lord, May the blessings of God continue to shower you with ALL good things. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Junior Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 50
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:08 pm: |
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"Trying to be antagaonistic" is exactly what you are 'trying' to convey. It takes more than that to get me riled. However, all you need to know is that I own the company store and I don't owe it. As opposed to most of the people who follow the WOF preachers. Quite a few of them are rolling their spiritual dice looking for a 100 fold return. Bingo was so much more fun and simpler. I provide opportunities for economically and educationally disadvantaged people to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps,' if you will. I have produced fruit that turn around and produce more fruit by helping others (kinda sounds like Chrisitanity and being a good neighbor to me). I used to work corporate America and I did not refuse raises, bonuses or anything else that was due me because of my intellectual property, hard work and labor. I EARNED my money by using the education, skills, and experience that God enabled me to receive.
I bore with sycophants that feel that they have to prove themselves to 'pastor.'
I have to give Creflo credit for his program that assists men that are released from prison. That is something that I find admirable. He has some good points, however I don't agree with the majority of his doctrine. I have every right to have my opionion. I can back my opinion up with scripture however.
Regarding the welfare comment, I have never had to rely on welfare. I help many people who earnestly want to break away from the welfare state. However, I find that a lot of what is being taught in these 'churches' further perpetuate the welfare state of mind. You have people (not all, mind you) that go to these churches who can barely put food on the table because they are too busy trying to live up to an image in addition to keeping up with the Jones'.
Personally, I have a low tolerance for social slacker, welfare state of mind deadbeats
who are always looking for a free ride on yours and my dime!! Sounds like a few ministers. Activists who enable the masses by brainwashing them into thinking they are doing them a favor and working for them, while keeping them in a welfare state of mind. They keep "them" in a state of arrested development, and that keeps them in poverty and squalor! (They have to have the best and most expensive clothes to wear on Sunday. They also have to drive the biggest, shiniest car in the lot. They also have to run to the $1000 offering line when the television debt is due. They have to live in the $200K home that they can't even afford to have repaired. They are eating bologna & cheese because the price of gas went up and they can't afford to buy chicken.) Rather, poverty is a state of mind implying dependency, irresponsibility, and the lack of a future. The biggest creator of poverty is the welfare state. They need opportunities, not pop psychology, because when they wake up from their state of arrested development they are going to be more disillusioned.
It is clear that there are ministers (I use that word loosely) who are perverting the prosperity gospel for personal gain. They attempt to enlist the proletariat into a welfare state of mind only to rob them of the fruit of their labors to perpetuate their subjugation to a Captialist state. The Capitalist being the ministers who profit by selling tapes, books,videos, seeds, etc.
I would go on but I have better things to do. Also, I am not interested in competing in a 'pissing contest.'
Saint_2 - I commend you. Thank you for exibiting LOVE. The last thing I want to do is discourage you. May God be with you. May the PEACE that passes all understanding guard your heart. |
bear (bear)
New member
Username: bear
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.234.147
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
|
grsh,
I was not trying to "rile" you or beat you in a "pissing contest". I was merely seeing what you were made of. My challenge was based off of the "holy trillionaire" comment.
I am NOT a Creflo fan, nor a fan of prosperity preachers who pervert scripture and use prosperity as there only topic for sermons. As I stated before, I just believe that God prospers his people.
I like you. You are my kind of person. In fact, I am just like you in my position on using my skills and hard work that God has given me. I also get my greatest blessing by giving to others. I have found that many people who think that christians should be poor are themselves, poor.
You are the very example of what I have been trying to get across. My sincere apology for my method.
Thank you for your honesty. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
|
Lots of talk on this thread about Creflo Dollars mamon loving, in otherwords what he practises, what about his doctrine and teaching theologically speaking? I am surprised nobody on this thread has yet posted his blasphemous Sabellian and Gnostics statements about God and the bible. Read on and get educated about this false prophet wolf in sheeps clothing...
Jesus Did Not Come As God And Was Not Perfect!
Quotes Below are from Creflo Dollars own mouth:
If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? If Jesus - See God’s already anointed. If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? Jesus came as a man, that’s why it was legal to anoint Him. God doesn’t need anointed. He is anointing. Jesus came as a man and at age thirty, God is now getting ready to demonstrate to us and give us an example of what a man with the anointing can do.
....Jesus didn’t come as God, He came as a man, and He did not come perfect.
....But Jesus didn’t show up perfect. He grew into His perfection. You know Jesus - one scripture in the bible - he went on a journey, he was tired. You better hope God don’t get tired. Isaiah 50 says, 50, 60, somewheres says where we have a God who fainteth not, neither is wearied? But Jesus did. If He came as God and he got tired; He says he sat down by the well because he was tired. Boy we’re in trouble.
....And somebody said, well, Jesus came as God! Well, how many of you know the Bible says God never sleeps nor slumbers? And yet in the book of Mark we see Jesus asleep in the back of the boat. (pause) Please listen to me. Please listen to me. This ain’t no heresy. I’m not some false prophet. I’m just reading this thing out to you of the Bible. I’m just telling you, you all these fantasy preacher have been preaching all of this stuff for all of these years and we bought the package! (Creflo Dollar Ministries: World Changers, 12/8/2002)
- Directly contradicts John 1:14, which reads "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us." Creflo Dollar has the flesh becoming the Word!
- Dollar reduces Christ to an ordinary man who has been anointed, and as Copeland says, even HE could have died for our sins.
- Contradicts 2 Cor. 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
- This is a blasphemous statement and blatant heresy on his part.
Critics Have the Spirit of Poverty
You operate by a spirit of poverty if you are critical of those who preach and teach prosperity. You operate in a spirit of poverty if you are, if you criticize those who preach and teach prosperity. My God, man, I told you last night that Bible talks more about money than it does about heaven, and all we got to do is open the Bible up for ourselves and see it instead of sitting there being afraid to hear it. (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
You Can't Have Love, Joy and Peace Without Money
See, there are some people that believe not in prosperity. There are some people that don't want to hear it, they don't want to have anything to do with it. You say money in church, they put their little finger up and they go to walking out the church. As broke as they are, they go walking out church with their little finger up, 'cause Satan's got their minds blind. They've been blinded in their minds. They don't want to hear about prosperity. They don't want to hear about, that God is a God that wants to put money in your hand, that God is a God that has prosperity on His mind. They don't want to hear that.
"Bless God, I want to hear about love and joy and peace."
Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money! (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
You Aren't Whole Without Money
Now, last night we began to deal with the relationship between peace and prosperity, and we found out that the Hebrew word for "peace" is the word "shalom," and that word means "wholeness, completeness, nothing missing and nothing broken." And we read, and we'll look at it again tonight, it says "my soul is far from prosperity." Why? "Because my soul's far from peace because I forgot prosperity." We established last night that you are not whole until you get your money. Amen. Amen. (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
Preaches A False Gospel - God Ready to Put Money In Your Pocket
Look at this. Revelation 3:17. Notice Jesus is talking here. He said, "Because thou saith 'I am rich, and increased with goods'"- See, we think in this society you can be rich and increased in good and not be poor. But now notice what He says: "Because thou saith 'I am rich, and increased with goods and have need of nothing'" - He said "That's what you said." - "And you knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked."
Now wait a minute. This boy got money. He said "Yeah, but he's still broke in other areas of his life."
Now here's what Jesus is trying to do over here in Luke. Go back to Luke, Chapter 4:18. Here's what Jesus wants to show us. This anointing is available to deliver whoever is without. Wherever you need to be made whole, the Gospel is the Good News about the power of God on Jesus to make you whole and get you out of your poverty, whether it's poverty in health or poverty in a blind money or poverty in money. This anointing is ready to deal with poverty. This anointing is ready to remove the burden and destroy the yoke. So, honey, you can be healthy tonight and you can be, you have your eyesight and you're able to walk, but you ain't got no money in your pocketbook, I'm telling you this anointing is ready to put some money in your pocketbook because He's ready to remove the burden of lack. (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
Faith Stuff Produces Material Stuff!
The substance of the house you want is faith substance. …before the wood, before the tree, before the seed, there was the substance. And when you get the substance, then you can get the seed, which will bring the tree, which will produce the wood, which will build your house. But without faith stuff, you have no stuff, because faith stuff is the stuff of all stuff. Take away the faith stuff, you ain't got no stuff. Get the faith stuff, and you can get some more stuff, because you got the main stuff. Now, did you get all that stuff? (Changing Your World Show, Sept. 20, 1998)
Words Are Spiritual Containers
Now, God used faith substance to make everything that He made…in every one of those words they were filled with faith substance, because words are nothing but containers…. every time God speaks, He can't help but to speak words that are filled with faith…God's guts are called faith stuff…. Everything in Him is faith. … What's in His heart is faith….if you were to cut God open, you'd see nothing but faith. Every time He opens His mouth now, He automatically fills those words with His faith material. (Changing Your World Show, Sept. 20, 1998)
Jesus Wore Designer Clothes
I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either. Like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey! (Creflo Dollar Crusade, Feb. 9, 1999)
Speak to the Spirit of Debt - Fig Tree Spoke to Jesus
Start speaking your freedom. There is no such thing as deliverance in this physical, natural realm aside from your mouth. Your mouth is connected to your life. Death and life is in the power of the tongue. You're going to have to start speaking to the spirit of debt. If you don't speak to the debt, debt gonna talk to you. Jesus spoke to a thing. He spoke to a fig tree. The Bible says "He answered it and said," so obviously the fig tree must have been saying something to Him. It had leaves on it, but it didn't have no figs on it. And Jesus showed up hungry and the fig tree said, "I bet you think I've got some figs on me, but I ain't got no figs on me and I know you're hungry because I see you shaking, but I ain't got no figs on me. You still going to be hungry." Jesus answered it and said, "Well then, no man will eat fruit of thee hereafter." See, things will talk to you. (Creflo Dollar Crusade, TBN, Feb. 9, 1999)
Creflo's Teaching On The Triune God & His SABELIAN Leanings
On his website it states www.worldchangers.org/hspirit_t1.html
“ He (the Holy Ghost) is the third person in the Trinity -- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.” He also states “We believe in water baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe in the name of Jesus, and the authority invested in that name. We should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
The first and most important is the primary doctrine of the Trinity which is to upheld by the Christian church. Though his website states it this way, he has also stated in his definition a distortion. He explains: “The trinity is of course God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. We have to be careful because religion has us sometime thinking we have three different Gods. You know there’s God here...hey holy ghost- hey Jesus…its God one God one faith one baptism not three Gods, not three faiths, not baptism’s everytime you mess up, one. God the father, one God, three functions one and different functions God functioning as a father, God functioning as a son, God functioning as the holy ghost. I am Creflo Dollar I’m a husband to my wife I’m, a father to my children I’m a pastor to gods sheep. Right now I’m not functioning as husband, I am not functioning as a father, I am functioning as one of the 5 fold ministry gifts to God’s sheep. Same guy other functions you follow me. One God other functions.”
(Feb.19, 2001 World Changers program Lesea broadcasting)
The orthoox Christian teaching of the Trinity is not that the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are functions, but are persons. He also confirms his position when he says for his own baptism “I used to be a baptist, I got baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost which is none other than the name of Jesus” (tape on file). Whether Creflo subscribes to the trinity is hard to say, as he has stated both positions confusing the issue. This is a Oneness Pentecostal view, that they (a denial of persons) are only roles (modes or functions?) More specifically this is the ancient heresy of Sabellian. There are many new teachers today who do not have a grasp on the tri-unity of God and from this distortion they go into other distorted (false) doctrines. When I say false I mean that they take a truth and change it, bring it to an extreme. For example they will take a certain circumstance or promise out of the Bible and make it a general one for all. But in this case its just flat out false teaching and it affects everything else that is attached to it. To be baptized in Jesus name means to Oneness Pentecostals the same as to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for they are all Jesus.
Just as Creflo seems to confuse the nature of God, he also confuses the nature of man, which becomes crucial. He teaches we have equality and no inferiority to God in His righteousness and abilities on earth. But for one to get this understanding their mind needs to be renewed in the area of righteousness (like his), so they can embrace the full truth of it by faith. “You begin to study the righteousness of God is also defined as having equality with God” … “we’re struggling to try and get what God says we can have because we keep seeing ourselves as little slaves and He’s the big boss.” “I’m going to show you a scripture now that will just shock you real good, make you mad, upset, all kinds of things and then I’m going to go and walk you through Genesis all the way back up through the Bible. But the first scripture is going to do all kinds of stuff to your head, … but I’m going to show you something Jesus said and I’m going to show you where He got it from.”
Creflo Promotes Christians as "Little Gods" Proving His Gnostic Leanings:
Quoting Jn.10:34 and Ps.82:6 Creflo states “Wow. Let’s read verse 6, ready read: “I have said ye are gods and all of you are children of the most High. But you shall die like men and fall like one of the princes.” Well, we know who that is right? “Arise oh God, judge the earth for thou shall inherit all the nations.” “ Now, notice what He says here, “Ye are gods” small g. You are gods? Somebody says “You trying to say we’re gods?” No, I’m not trying to say we’re gods. He already said it. But what I want to know is Lord, how can we be gods? And He answers it in the next phrase. Because you are the children of the Most High. See if you are truly a child of God, if you were born out of God, you got to be a part of the God class. I know I’m not God. But I’m a child of the Most High…I’m a part of the God class…. But then the next verse says, “Because you did not believe you were gods, you’re going to die like men.” But it says you’re gods. And I said now, Lord, wait a minute here. How we going to prove this? Because I kept hearing over and over again all this week, we need to have a God training class for Christians. So they can start acting … ”
(Our equality with God through righteousness 1/21/2001)
This is not what the next verse actually says, Creflo who moves in and around the Scriptures at a fast pace makes it hard for anyone to check on these statements as he brings them through his twist and turns to his conclusions. Ps. 82:6-8 ‘I said, 'You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High. But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.’ The biblical application of this verse was addressed to the judges of Israel they were called gods not because they were divine but because they represented the true and only God when they judged the people. The word for God that is used here is elohim, which can mean rulers,(not Yahweh elohim used only for the one God). The word for Judges is found in Ex.21:22; 22:8-9 it is ha elohim (other scriptures of how the acted Deut.1:16;16:18; 25:1; 2 Sam.11:7). Jesus goes on to explain: They ‘will die as mere men and fall as one of the princes’, that prince was Satan. They thought they were like God but they will die as mere men. It is then they will know the difference between the creator who is the true God and their own mortality. Juxtapose this with the end of Ps.82 in verse 8: “Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit all nations.” It points to only one God who eventually will judge righteously and rule over all the people one day. Nowhere in Scripture is there a teaching of little gods verses big God, but instead the scripture teachesabout false gods verses the true God. So in reality to claim to be a little god is to put one in the category of a false god.
To understand what Creflo teaches we need to go back to the beginning, man’s beginning in the garden and compare what he says happened in the biblical account. Creflo has constructed a unique fairy tale from the Genesis record about Adam and God; from this distortion it affects almost everything else he believes; tithing, righteousness, Christ, healing, etc. In fact it goes to the core difference on the nature of man and God. For it affect the concept of mans relationship to God, we being servants to him as our King.
“What was the blueprint for man” Creflo asks his members. God made a man that reflected his image; is that correct. When you look in the mirror what do you see? A reflection of your what? Your image yourself. But who is that in the mirror? That’s you. Now you see and image a reflection of you. Because if you were not real, then you couldn’t produce a reflection of something that’s not there. Umm, Humm. So when God made man. All He did was take a reflection of Himself. You all ain’t listening to what I’m saying. He [speaks in tongues], son, help me, the Hebrew translation here “God made another speaking spirit”. The actual meaning there “He made another speaking spirit”…
So when God made man all he did was take a reflection of himself… So he said let us make another speaking spirit. When God made Adam all he did was make an exact imprint of hisself. He duplicated himself, he was the image and from his image came hisself…(Our equality with God through Righteousness 1/21/2001).
“Because the first Adam, he had my blood in him. He had blood type G on the inside of him. I mean, the blood of any child comes from the father. Well, the father, God, was the one that had to create the blood to flow into Adam, cause he was the first one. So I got to get the same thing happening here and this last Adam got to have blood type g like this first Adam had blood type g. And then I got to have myself on the inside of that body like I was on the inside of Adam”
(Creflo Dollar April 16, 2002 Changing your world LeSea Broadcasting) .
Here Creflo is making the comparison of Adam being God, as Jesus was God. So he is saying Adam was the first incarnation of God created from the ground and Jesus is the second incarnation of God created from Mary. Another quote confirms the Adam god teaching. “Adam had running in his veins blood type g, that was God’s blood, God had to get another man just like Adam and he had to have running in his veins the same type blood that Adam had in his veins, so God didn’t create the 2nd Adam he created the last Adam because once Jesus finishes with this thing we ain’t gonna need no other Adam, you understand” (Changing your World, LeSea Broadcasting).
And if that was not enough here are more links, all the info a person will need to show that Creflo Dollar is not a true christian, let alone a minister of the true gospel.
http://gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/creflodollar/creflodollar.htm
Here is a very recent interview the 43 year old Creflo Dollar did with Businessweek Magazine:
http://gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/creflodollar/chuchofmightydollar.htm |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 74
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
|
Creflo $Dollar$ in his OWN WORDS...
Creflo Dollar Says - "You Are gods" -- Creflo Dollar is echoing the second lie from the serpent in the garden of Eden, "you shall be as gods" (Gen 3:5). It is a very old lie, and blasphemy of the highest order.
Creflo Dollar Says - Now I gotta hit this thing real hard in the very beginning because I ain't got time to go through all this, but I am going to say to you right now you are gods, little "g", you are gods because you came from God and you are gods. You are not just human. The only human part about you is this physical body that you live in.
Creflo Dollar Says - “Some people get mad when I talk about money, They says” Whenever I see Dollar he’s talking about Money!’ That’s because you aint got none, I aint talking to you!” (TBN, Praise-A – Thon April 1, 2001)
Creflo Dollar Says - “People get mad and say ‘All they want is your money!’ Well, you aint got no money anyway”
(TBN, Praise-A – Thon April 1, 2001)
Creflo Dollar Says - “The first miracle Jesus ever did was a miracle of luxury… somebody said the lord will meet you need but I don’t know about your desires. Well they didn’t need wine that day…Jesus showed up with an undeniable miracle of luxury and he turned water into wine. “ He leads the people in a repetitive affirmation “c’mon shout it out I’ve got increase on my mind”, “shout it out God has increase on his mind” “shout it out I’ll have increase” “Now.”
Creflo Dollar Says - “ You’ve got to seek his face not just his hand, if you’ll seek his face he’ll give you what’s in his hand.”
Creflo Dollar Says - “I’m telling you folks I’m ready to be like Jesus, I’ve got increase on my mind, I’ve got increase on his mind, I’m getting ready to increase more and more.” “God made a covenant of increase with us” has them repeat over and over “I’ve got increase on my mind” “God always wants us to increase.”
Creflo Dollar Says - "God is coming back for a church without spot or blemish so he is not coming back to a church in debt this revival must take place before Jesus can come back He cannot come back for a broke church, he cannot come back for a sick church, he cannot come back for a church that is in debt that would be against his word. I'm coming back for a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle, so that means there's going to be some quick transference going on."
Creflo Dollar Says - "If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? If Jesus - See God’s already anointed. If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? Jesus came as a man, that’s why it was legal to anoint Him. God doesn’t need anointing. He is anointed. Jesus came as a man and at age thirty, God is now getting ready to demonstrate to us and give us an example of what a man with the anointing can do."
(Creflo Dollar, "Jesus' Growth into Sonship," December 8, 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093, 3132094)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Jesus didn’t come as God, He came as a man."
(Creflo Dollar, "Jesus' Growth into Sonship," December 8, 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093, 3132094)
Creflo Dollar Says - "But Jesus didn’t show up perfect. He grew into His perfection. You know Jesus - one scripture in the bible - he went on a journey, he was tired. You better hope God don’t get tired. Isaiah 50 says, 50, 60, somewheres says where we have a God who fainteth not, neither is wearied? But Jesus did. If He came as God and he got tired; He says he sat down by the well because he was tired. Boy we’re in trouble."
(Creflo Dollar, "Jesus' Growth into Sonship," December 8, 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093, 3132094)
Creflo Dollar Says - "And somebody said, well, Jesus came as God! Well, how many of you know the Bible says God never sleeps nor slumbers? And yet in the book of Mark we see Jesus asleep in the back of the boat. Please listen to me. Please listen to me. This ain’t no heresy. I’m not some false prophet. I’m just reading this thing out to you of the Bible. I’m just telling you, you all these fantasy preacher have been preaching all of this stuff for all of these years and we bought the package!"
(Creflo Dollar, "Jesus' Growth into Sonship," December 8, 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093, 3132094)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Somebody said, 'Well, Jesus knew all things.' Well, what happened to that fig tree situation? Seeing a fig tree far off, He saw leaves on the fig tree and thought if happily He might come to that fig tree and eat of that fig tree. But when He got there He saw that there were no figs on that tree. Well, wait a minute! Ha, ha, we better, we better hope God knows when figs are on a tree! [Amen's and laughs] But Jesus didn't come as God! He came as a man! Because, if Jesus came as God He would have known figs were on a fig tree without having to see the leaves on the fig tree!"
(Creflo Dollar, "Jesus' Growth into Sonship," December 8, 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093, 3132094)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Everything produces after it's own kind. That's the law of Genesis! Everything produces after it's own kind. Will God set a law into motion and then not follow the law that He set into motion? Absolutely not! Where did you come from? Who did you come from? Everything produces after it's own kind. Horses get horses and dogs get dogs and Gods produced gods! Gods produced gods! Ya'll didn't hear that. Horses produce horses and dogs produce dogs and Gods produced gods! Horses produce horses and dogs produce dogs and cats produce cats and fish produce fish and God produced gods! And then God produced more gods with flesh and then gods with flesh produced more gods with flesh. And then gods with flesh produced more gods with flesh until THE God of gods with flesh showed up one day with flesh and dwelt among the other gods with flesh to demonstrate to the other gods with flesh how to have authority over the flesh! Ah, low, bow, sha, da (Creflo Dollar speaking in "Tongues" with no interpreter). So follow Him! Follow Him! This is our history I'm telling you about! This is the history the religious church wants to hide away from you so you don't know who you really are!"
(Creflo Dollar, "The Creative Ability of Words," Tape from his ministry, Product Number: 8432091)
Note: "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God," 1 Corinthians 14:27-28.
Creflo Dollar Says - "I'm going to to tell you what blasphemy is! When God says you are the righteousness of God and you go around talking about, 'I'm unworthy.' That's blasphemy!...Blasphemy is when you go against what God has said about your true self! OOOOh! We are so unworthy! Shut up with that blasphemy!....You are not a sinner saved by grace. You are sons and daughters of the Most High God! You are gods! You are God's reflection on this planet. For you to say that thing is for you to count the blood of Jesus worthless. His blood was sent to cleanse you of your sin and you going around saying that you are still a sinner! What's the matter with you?"
(Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Words control the body. Oh glory be to God! And regardless of what's going on in your physical body, you got to talk to it. I'm telling you I talk to my major organs...I speak words to it...The tongue in your mouth will control every inch of your physical body! Do not tolerate sickness and disease as long as you got a working tongue that can speak the established Word of God! [Claps] Uh, that's good!"
(Creflo Dollar, "Establishing the Word of God Part 2," January 30, 2005, Product Number: 8442091)
Note: Why does Creflo Dollar wear glasses? Why are his eyes sick? Why does he tolerate it?
Creflo Dollar Says - "You have a miracle in your mouth. You have money in your mouth. You have deliverance in your mouth...You can have what you say." (Creflo Dollar, "Establishing the Word of God Part 2," January 30, 2005, Product Number: 8442091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "But when you start acting like who you are and the Devil shows up in the wilderness experiences of your life. You'll do just like Jesus. Get behind me Satan! For I am the Lord your God. Hallelujah! I have authority over you!" (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Once you begin to realize that you are God's children and you are little gods on this planet." (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "You have been so dog gone scared of religion we have allowed it to rob us of who we really are." (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
"I speak to fig tress! I speak to mountains! I cast out demons! Hallelujah! I raise the dead! Hallelujah! If need be I walk on water! I'm a god of the Most High God!"
(Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I'm a little 'g.' I need to start carrying myself like the Most High God! I'm a little god on this planet."
(Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "What do you think is going to happen when God Almighty declares, 'I want you to create a universe? I want you to speak to these worlds. And like I said, 'Light be,' you say, 'Light be!' Like I said, 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the firmament,' you do the same! I share with you my authority! I share with you my power! Start acting like my children!" (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "All right! I'm going to say something, you are gods on this earth. And it's about time we start operating like gods instead of a bunch of mere powerless humans." (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "That's why I believe in little lords. Little 'g' turn to your neighbor and say, 'Hello little g'. Come on! Turn aside and say, 'Hello little g.'" (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Hoooooo, Man! Brother Copeland caught it the first time he preached this! Hoooooooo, Heresy! Blasphemy! Blasphemy! They just went crazy! [They said] That man trying to say that we are gods."
(Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I said ye are gods. If he called them gods unto whom the Word of God came and the scripture cannot be broken. Say ye of him who the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, you tell me that thou blaspheme? Because I say I'm the Son of God? It's written in your own law. It's written in the dog gone thing that you are standing on trying to come against me! And you said that I'm committing blasphemy? Because in your own Law He already said we are little g's. You are committing blasphemy because you are going against what He said about us!" (Creflo Dollar, Audio-Clip, "Creflo Dollar: Christian Celebrity or Charismatic Gnostic?" #0418)
Creflo Dollar Says - "We have been losing the battle of words. We have let our body think that it has authority to do what it wants to do. And our body does not have authority to do what it wants to do. Our body must obey our tongue!" (Creflo Dollar, "Establishing the Word of God Part 2," January 30, 2005, Product Number: 8442091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Command your body to do things...Your healing is in your mouth! Your deliverance in every area is in your mouth!...Every cell in your body has to obey the Word of God that's coming out of your mouth. Every cell in your body has to obey."
(Creflo Dollar, "Establishing the Word of God Part 2," January 30, 2005, Product Number: 8442091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Let me tell you something, 'There is creative power invested in every word you speak and when we put God's word in our mouth we participate in the same creative process God used to create this physical earth.' I want you to order today's single message, 'The Creative Ability of Words,' and learn how to use your words to create change in your life." (Creflo Dollar, "The Creative Ability of Words," Tape from his ministry, Product Number: 8432091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "And if God now produces man and everything produces after it's own kind...if horses get together they produce what? If dogs get together they produce what? If cats get together they produce what? But if the Godhead gets together and says, "Let us make man" then what are they producing? They are producing gods. Now I got to get through this thing real hard in the very beginning, because I ain't got time to get through all this. But I'm saying right now that you are gods with a little "g". You are gods because you came from God and you are gods, you are not just human the only human thing about you is this physical body that you live in." (Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I'm trying to tell you that you are gods and you keep wanting to disagree with me." (Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Let me say it again a couple more times. You are gods! You can't ever be God, but your gods because you came from Him. Because you came from Him! Because you came from Him! Because you came from Him! Every kind produces after itself. If God produced you, you can't help but be what He is." (Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Your sonship is in jeopardy because you will not accept who you really are...You just want to be satisfied that you are human...But if you keep hanging around human beings that keep telling you that you are just human, that you can't speak to mountains, that you can't walk on water. You know what? You will be reduced to mere men!"
(Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "We have been created to be gods on the earth, just like God is God in heaven. We fight back, we resent that we want to call that heresy without studying the Bible. And yet, your entire sonship is based on you accepting your true image and your god nature. And then begin to reflect God's image on this earth."
(Creflo Dollar, "Growth Means Change," September 29, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "We have been looking for the glory because we have not realized that we are the glory of God."
(Creflo Dollar, "Growth Means Change," September 29, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "A son of God, they are those through a understanding of their divine nature, they can operate like God on the earth."
(Creflo Dollar, "Growth Means Change," September 29, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "And yet we want to continue to live like mere men..You need to begin to act like God on this planet...Do you still go around in that false ignorant humility that you are just mere men?"
(Creflo Dollar, "Growth Means Change," September 29, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "How have manifestations been in your life lately? Are you getting results in your life? When you pray are you getting answers to your prayers? When you sow do you see the hundered fold harvest? When you speak to mountains are your mountains removed? Are you getting results in your life?...You can be a child of God but sons of God see manifestations in their lives."
(Creflo Dollar, "Growth Means Change," September 29, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "You call Him Father, right? How dare you call Him Father and not accept your real nature."
(Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "The real me is a spiritual being made in the image of God. I come from God stock! The real me is just like God!"
(Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I have equality with God, thats my way of thinking. Now somebody says, "Well, it's hard to think that way," Well, keep saying it, "I have equality with God" talk yourself into it! You've talked yourself into other things!" (Creflo Dollar, Audio clip from, "The Bible answer-man," Hank Hanegraaff July 10, 2003)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Every time you meet a challenge you remind yourself that you are anointed. The whole creation has been waiting for me to show up. Oh! I'm getting ready to walk in and demonstrate the qualities of my father. I understand my divine nature, my God nature."
(Creflo Dollar, "Growing Up In God," April 4, 2004, Product Number: 6512091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "The sons of God, they understand their divine nature. The sons of God, they know who they are. The sons of God, will stand up in front of sickness and disease and run it out. The sons of God, in a time of need will sow a seed and go to sleep. They will not stay up all night worrying about it." (Creflo Dollar, "Growing Up In God," April 4, 2004, Product Number: 6512091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I don't have to tolerate sickness! I don't have to tolerate bondage! I don't have to tolerate debt! I don't have to tolerate lack! I don't have to tolerate insufficiency! I don't have to be broke, busted, and disgusted all my life...My God is a God that has given me the power to get wealth." (Creflo Dollar, "Growing Up In God," April 4, 2004, Product Number: 6512091) Note: Why does Creflo Dollar wear glasses? Why are his eyes sick? Why does he tolerate it? Why doesn't he release his "Faith" for healing so that he can move forward?
Creflo Dollar Says - "What are you doing? I'm receiving my hundred fold? What? You have to do more than go outside and jerk three or four times to receive a hundered fold. A First thing, is that you gotta give! You gotta tithe first!" (Creflo Dollar, "Growing Up In God," April 4, 2004, Product Number: 6512091)
Creflo Dollar Says -"Listen, you don't want to die and go to heaven and find out that you could have had a little heaven while you were on this earth. I'm talking about your life is supposed to be good! It's supposed to be joyful, it's supposed to be full." (Creflo Dollar, "Growing Up In God," April 4, 2004, Product Number: 6512091)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Sons of God don't tolerate the intimidation of the Devil. Sons of God will not put up with cancer trying to kill them! Sons of God will not live from paycheck to paycheck!"
(Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Now religion and tradition tell us all of these things. You know? They tell us that your a filthy rag and unworthy. Your not that either." (Creflo Dollar, "Made After His Kind," September 15, 2002, Product Number: 3422093)
Creflo Dollar Says - "God wants you driving Good, dressing good, looking good, because He is good!"
(Creflo Dollar, Intro to, "Maximizing Your God Given Potential," May 18, 2003)
Creflo Dollar Says - "There is power and anointing available that will release you from the captivity of debt. Jesus was sent by God '...to preach the good news (the Gospel) to the poor...to announce release to the captives...' Luke 4:18, Amplified). Debt is from the devil. It is a demonic spirit designed to keep you from entering the call of Abraham, which is to bless others until all families of the earth are blessed (Genesis 12:3)."
(Creflo Dollar, "How to Get Out of Debt God's Way," page 7)
Creflo Dollar Says - "God wants you out of debt just as much as He wants you healed. The same principle applies. If you can release your faith for healing in your body, you can also release faith for debt cancellation. When you start releasing your faith, you can begin to move forward."
(Creflo Dollar, "How to Get Out of Debt God's Way," page 16)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Break out of that old $2.50 offering! You got to get into that savings account and give something that's precious to you." (Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Some people get mad when I talk about money, they say, 'Whenever I see Dollar he's talking about money!' That's because you ain't got none! I ain't talking to you!" (Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Dial that telephone and say, 'I'll never be broke another day in my life. When that operator gets on say, 'I'll never be broke another day in my life." (Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "God is speaking to some folk watching on television. Will you move? If what God says doesn't move you, no matter what you say to God will move Him!" (Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Honey, If you aren't willing to pick up the phone and sow that seed, keep it!" (Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Somebody might say, 'Well, I don't believe it." Well, you probably wouldn't with your broke self."
(Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I declare in the name of Jesus that your days of living paycheck to paycheck are over, forever!"
(Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "People get mad and say, 'All they want is your money!' Well, you ain't got no money anyway!"
(Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "What's the gospel to the poor? It is prosperity!"
(Creflo Dollar, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either. Like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey!"
(Creflo Dollar Crusade, Feb. 9, 1999. Bob Hunter, "Contenders")
Creflo Dollar Says - "He created man to be god over the earth while He remains Supreme God over everything."
(Creflo Dollar, Study Notes, Understanding Our Authority to Dominate, 04/04/03)
Creflo Dollar Says - "After entering hell and being there for three days, Jesus became born again....Jesus was the first born-again man...Jesus died spiritually for every man so that sinners could be redeemed from spiritual death...Jesus stepped out of life and tasted spiritual death."
(Creflo Dollar, Study Notes, The First Begotten Son, 04/11/04. His website)
Creflo Dollar Says - "When Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished,” He was referring to the Abrahamic covenant....Jesus entered hell with nothing more than His covenant with God...He took back the keys to death, hell and the grave." (Creflo Dollar, Study Notes, Our Authority Through the Covenant, 04/18/04. His website)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Did you know that angels actually listen to and act on the words we speak?...As we have seen, a mighty host of angels is waiting to hear the words of God come out of a believer's mouth...When you have bills that need to be paid, speak the Word. Speak out things like this:
According to Philippians 4:19, my God shall supply all my needs according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. I am a tither, and according to Malachi 3:10, God is opening the windows of Heaven and pouring out a blessing for me that I will not have room to contain. Now, according to Hebrews 1:14, I command the angels of God to go forth and minister for me, an heir of salvation.
When angels hear God's Word coming out of your mouth, they go into action, moving and influencing in the spirit realm to make God's covenant words come to pass for you.
What happens, on the other hand, when you speak out the same negative "garbage" of doubt and unbelief that the world speaks? "Bills, bills, bills. We are never going to get caught up? They will probably turn off our lights before we see any money around here."
You have just taken your angels out of the picture. Those words run directly counter to what God's covenant says about your situation. In the presence of those words of doubt and unbelief, they have no choice but to bow their heads, fold their hands, and wait.
They are waiting for you to speak God's Word and do it consistently enough for them to get some provision to you....If you have battled fear, this is a great verse to speak about yourself on a daily basis. You can speak out things like this, "Because I reverence the Lord, His angels camp around me and deliver me from all harm."
That is the kind of talk that will put angels in a position to do that very thing. No mugger, no rapist, no drive-by shooter on earth can penetrate that angelic shield of protection. And when you do find yourself in a sticky situation, this verse promises you deliverance....The most devastating aspect of fear is that, as the reciprocal of faith, it opens the door to the very things you fear most. It is time to get rid of fear! All of the steps you need to take to come out of fear and get into faith are actions:
Start changing the way you talk.
Stop speaking out words of fear and doubt.
Begin to speak God's promises that apply to your situation.
Get a revelation of the ministry of God's protecting angels.
See - with your mind's eye - mighty warrior angels surrounding you on every side.
(Creflo Dollar, "Angels Listen to Our Words," Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Think of God's blessing this way. It's His ability on your ability. It gives you the ability to do what you could not do before...The question is, what does the blessing make rich? Whatever is needed at the time. For example, when the blessing shows up in a poor man's life, it maketh him rich with money...The blessing is a positive force...That's why you can't afford to associate with folks who aren't blessing-minded. By this I mean, those who allow the spirit of poverty to operate in their lives. They are the ones who always have the poor, nothing-ever-seems-to-go-right-for-me mentality. Instead of looking for the blessing, they confess curses over their lives and see the results."
(Creflo Dollar, "You Have the Blessing!" Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Debt has become an acceptable way of life for most people. Unfortunately, due to this mindset, they will remain in bondage to it. To eliminate debt from your life, you must change the way you think about it. God does not want anyone to be in debt; however, if you are in over your head, He has a way to deliver you out of it once and for all...Rest assured that God has a way for you to get out of debt, but it's up to you to take the time to hear from Him and then follow His instructions...What does the Bible mean by "God's way" when it concerns money? The parable of the sower, or farmer, in Mark 4:11-29 reveals the answer to this question. Basically, a farmer sows seed to produce a crop that will ultimately be sold. From the proceeds of the sale, he is then able to pay his bills and feed his family. You could say that he has to sow to make a living. Likewise, a sower (one who gives to the kingdom of God above his or her tithe) sows seed (money) for a living. I encourage you to become a sower who gives to live and lives to give...This is God's way of doing things. Before a farmer can harvest a crop, he first has to sow seeds. Likewise, before you can receive, you must give. If you want to get out of debt, stop looking at the world's way of debt cancellation. Look to God's way of seed time and harvest. Sowing into the kingdom of God unleashes an awesome force. You may not start off giving large amounts of money, but the $5, $10 or $20 you sow will release God's unlimited power toward your debt reduction." (Creflo Dollar, "Debt Freedom God's Way," Changing Your World Magazine, January 2004)
Creflo Dollar Says - "As you can see, you have a covenant right to prosper and experience God's best in every area of life. That's total life prosperity...You can transmit top-secret information directly to heaven, and God will respond with the manifestation of what you've spoken in tongues. However, you must do it in faith. You must believe in your heart that you have already received the physical manifestation of what you've prayed for in tongues before you actually receive anything...Use God's highly secure way to withdraw healing, debt freedom and prosperity from heaven's account. Speaking in tongues will help you cultivate your relationship with God." (Creflo Dollar, "Top Secret," Part I,II,III, Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Encourage your children to take action with the Word when they encounter evil. For example, if they come home and tell you that the school bully was picking on or threatening them, stand in agreement with them for the situation to be resolved and have them bind the spirit operating through that particular student."
(Creflo Dollar, "A Child's Authority," Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "Often family members will do things to scare one another just for "fun." I remember how I used to sneak up behind my wife, Taffi, and try to frighten her. She would do things to me as well. We would laugh until we were almost in tears! We thought it was the funniest thing to see one another's reaction to fear. It wasn't until later that we understood that we couldn't continue to play around like that and expect to be free from the spirit of fear." (Creflo Dollar, "Raising The Standard," Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "What you speak and visualize determines your success or failure in prayer. If you visualize defeat, then defeat is inevitable. On the other hand, if you see yourself possessing the results of your prayers, you will have success. As a child of God, you have a covenant right to receive His blessings. See yourself possessing the things for which you've been praying. For example, if you're believing God for a new house, then speak His Word and visualize yourself living in that house. Possessing what you want begins with your confession...You are the redeemed of the Lord, and whatever you say is so."
(Creflo Dollar, "Visualize Success and Reject Failure," Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "For example, if I continually meditate on the good things God desires for me to have - peace, prosperity, provision, protection and divine health - those thoughts will motivate me to do two things: First, maintain my covenant connection with God through my tithes and offerings; and second, place a daily demand on His anointing for those things to manifest themselves in my life through Word-based confessions." (Creflo Dollar, "Destined for the Good Life!" Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "When you are living and walking in the presence of Almighty God, sickness has to go. No disease can withstand His presence. When you live in His presence, poverty and insufficiency must flee. There can be no lack in the presence of the God Who made heaven and earth."
(Creflo Dollar, "Living in the Presence of God," Article C-Faith)
Creflo Dollar Says - "As you evaluate yourself with a heart toward developing holiness (doing things and thinking in line with God and His Word), keep in mind that there are several pitfalls the Enemy will use to cause you to miss your breakthrough. Sexual immorality, greed, rebellion and offense are just a few of them. The Devil is no gentleman. For example, in one day 23,000 people died because of their sexual immorality (1 Corinthians 10:8). In addition, greed and materialism (a wrong relationship with money) claimed 3,000 lives as people made gods out of gold (Exodus 32:26-28, 31) and caused others to fall victim to leprosy (2 Kings 5:20-27). Adam and Eve were forced from a land of plenty and separated from God because of their rebellion. Offense brought on the premature death of John the Baptist (Luke 7:18 -23). Guard yourself against these traps so that they won’t hinder you from what God has promised to give you."
(Creflo Dollar, "Are You Seeing The Glory?" His website)
Note: Jesus' view of John the Baptist is quite different from Mr. Dollar:
"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he,"Luke 7:28.
Creflo Dollar Says - "You get that covenant on your mind and everything you pray. You pray with that covenant on your mind everything you give, you give with that covenant on your mind. Everything you lay hands you lay hands with the covenant on your mind, you look up to God and say, “ God you got to do it, you can’t lie, you swore by yourself, it’s impossible for you to lie, you said you got to do it. Now you got to do this thing.” And this is how God responded to someone who knows their covenant; here is Moses that got right before God’s face and God was getting ready to kill all of Israel. Because you know he was trying to give them the law and he comes back and they are partying and smoking refer, they building some golden calf you know Rick James somewhere in the corner talking about, “pass me the joint.”
They doing all that kind of stuff and God said, “Look here, here is what I am going to do. I‘m going to kill all of them,” and Moses got in God’s face watch this and he said, “No you will not.” Now how do you figure a man can get before God and tell God what he is not going to do. I will tell you how on the basis of the covenant, he said, “Your not going to kill them because you have a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” And the bible said that God repented or He changed his mind. Quit going before God like a bunch of spiritual sissies and go before God with the covenant on your mind, quit whining before God and go before God like you know your rights.
All right, I am going to do something here that it’s going to start a revival or a riot. I’m going to say something, now watch this you will be able to identity a covenant person by how they act. [He gets on one knee looking down] Watch this we are all to familiar with this, I bow down on my bended knee, “Dear kind and heavenly Father I know that I’m not worth nothing Lord. I know I’m just a filthy rag. I know I ought to go to hell, but Lord if you could just stop by a little while; everything is going to be all right. Ummm, Lord I need you to stop by just a little while I know I ain’t no good, Jesus. But if you could stop by everything will be all right. Please Jesus Oh stop by. Please Ah Please! Please! Jesus, Oh Lord, I Know I Don’t Deserve it Jesus, Please, Please. For Christ sake we pray. Amen and thank God.”
That is a guy that doesn’t understand his covenant. This is a guy that’s got to beg God because he doesn’t’ understand his covenant. A covenant person will go before God like this [Standing and looking up at God], “Father in the name of Jesus I am the righteousness of God. I have a blood bought right to have healing in my body; I have a blood right to have a sound mind. I have a blood bought right. I have a blood bought right to get answers to my prayers and when I am trouble. I have a blood bought right to come before your throne and to ask you for help in a time of trouble. Now according to John 16:33, you said whatever I pray in the name of Jesus it shall be given onto me. You said in Mark 11:24 if I believe I receive it, then I shall have it. Therefore, I pray it and say in the name of Jesus and I believe that I receive it in Jesus name, Amen and good night.”
Covenant! Covenant! God has not called you to be a bunch of wimpy men. He’s called you to be covenant men. He’s called you to men of power. Men of the anointing, He’s called you to be wealthy men."
(Creflo Dollar, Man Power 2003, "Ready For Multiplication," T. D. Jake's Show, May 24, 2004)
Jesus Wore Designer Clothes
Creflo Dollar Says - I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either. Like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey! (Creflo Dollar Crusade, Feb. 9, 1999)
**Jesus Did Not Come As God And Was Not Perfect! ***
Creflo Dollar Says - If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? If Jesus - See God’s already anointed. If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? Jesus came as a man, that’s why it was legal to anoint Him. God doesn’t need anointed. He is anointing. Jesus came as a man and at age thirty, God is now getting ready to demonstrate to us and give us an example of what a man with the anointing can do.
....Jesus didn’t come as God, He came as a man, and He did not come perfect.
....But Jesus didn’t show up perfect. He grew into His perfection. You know Jesus - one scripture in the bible - he went on a journey, he was tired. You better hope God don’t get tired. Isaiah 50 says, 50, 60, somewheres says where we have a God who fainteth not, neither is wearied? But Jesus did. If He came as God and he got tired; He says he sat down by the well because he was tired. Boy we’re in trouble.
....And somebody said, well, Jesus came as God! Well, how many of you know the Bible says God never sleeps nor slumbers? And yet in the book of Mark we see Jesus asleep in the back of the boat. (pause) Please listen to me. Please listen to me. This ain’t no heresy. I’m not some false prophet. I’m just reading this thing out to you of the Bible. I’m just telling you, you all these fantasy preacher have been preaching all of this stuff for all of these years and we bought the package! (Creflo Dollar Ministries: World Changers, 12/8/2002)
* Directly contradicts John 1:14, which reads "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us." Creflo Dollar has the flesh becoming the Word!
* Dollar reduces Christ to an ordinary man who has been anointed, and as Copeland says, even HE could have died for our sins.
* Contradicts 2 Cor. 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
* This is a blasphemous statement and blatant heresy on his part. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 51
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.162.52.69
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
|
AlphaOmega....thank you for your in depth exegesis. The main reason that I choose not to go in depth in this forum is because most of the people don't have a valid retort/rebuttal. They can only tell you what 'pastor' Dollar said last Sunday or on his dvd. They don't take the time to actually look up what these people are 'teaching' them. They covet the pastors lavish lifestyle. He is earning his money off of the gamble that they will never read their bibles or take theology classes. Most of the people who follow WOF preaches don't have a clue. Most of the WOF preachers don't have a clue either. They just know that they have 'prospered.' Their prosperity is due to the ignorance and laziness of their followers.
Bear....Here is a big hug for you.  |
billiefan2000 (billiefan2000)
Member
Username: billiefan2000
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 67.130.119.210
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
|
this maybe a bit unrelated but has anyone read the article at:
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=67008
By the way:
Why would a church need security detail? |
jita1 (jita1)
New member
Username: jita1
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 170.146.91.6
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
|
Hello all,
My main problem with Creflo and the other Word-Faith teachers is what they teach. Where's the Gospel? I watched Creflo one day and he said that Adam breathed life into the animals. Huh? Where's the scripture to support this? The last time I read the passage in Genesis, Adam NAMED the animals. This only scratches the surface of the error that himself as well as Copeland, Hagin Sr, and others have taught. The problem is that people see the $$$ and the Rolls Royces and the private jets and their "mega-churches" and they are wiling to compromise the word of God. They say "Well, he must be doing something right, or God wouldn't bless him like that". I'm not buying it. We as Christians are lacking discernment. I hunger to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not a bunch of pie in the sky stuff. Remember that Jesus told us to "teach all nations". The Gospel of Jesus Christ is universal. Can one teach this prosperity stuff in third world countries? I don't think so. I pray that Creflo and the others go back to teaching sound doctrine. |
neglectnot (neglectnot)
New member
Username: neglectnot
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.115.131.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
|
Hi,
I'm new to this board. I was a TBN junkie at one time :-). I know some of you can relate.
At this point in my walk with the Lord I woudn't defend someone I do not know. Creflo Dollar, Mike Murdock, Kenneth Copeland - how many of us know them at all? Seems like the one guy - godskids is the only one. I read that he says he also knows Jesse Duplantis and maybe that's true, I don't know.
How does Mr. Dollar treat his employees? How about his wife - not in church but at home? Does he cheat on his taxes? We don't know! Unless we walk with him we can only "guess" concerning his fruit or go by what others tell us.
Anytime someone says something or questions teachings, I hate to hear others accuse them of being "the anti-Christ" or "persecuters". We better test the teachings and try to listen to other brethren to see if we might be missing something. That's why we have each other - right? The bible tells us that there will be "many" false prophets - not just a few.
Again, I don't know Creflo Dollar so I can't vouch for him nor will I speak against him. Some of the teachings I've found okay, but many I just don't believe line up with scripture. I used to watch him daily but as I began to study diligently and spend time with the Lord I began to look at things differently. This is me! You go ahead with whatever you believe! You are God's servant (if you are born again) and you will be accountable to Him as will I. Just be sure to study for yourself.
Lastly, I have a fire in me to encourage us to honor one another - whether we have "titles" or not. We are all special and we each have wonderful gifts given to us for the edification of the body. We have just too many "celebrities" right now - and some need to be careful that they haven't made them "gods".
Matthew 7:20 - Thus by their fruit you will recognize them.
Ephesians 4:11-14 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown hear and there by every wind of teaching..
Dee Dee
http://www.neglectnotthegift.org - A free Christian e-zine. |
zaz (zaz)
Intermediate Member
Username: zaz
Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.72.106.169
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
|
Your exactly right Jita1, Creflo and the entire WOF bunch are a bunch of money hungry phonies... lying and doing whatever it takes to line their own pockets. |
cybermom (cybermom)
Intermediate Member
Username: cybermom
Post Number: 260
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.186.102.112
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
|
neglectnot
I don't think we need to know people personally to know if their ministry is biblically sound.
Listen to their teachings, read some of their artilces, watch them on tv/online; does what they say line up with the Word of God? You said yourself that Creflo Dollar's teachings didn't; so IMHO that's all I'd need to decide if I want to feed my spirit with unscriptural teachings or support that ministry.
I also learned to listen/read "between the lines." A person's true personality comes out in the little comments, remarks and stories they tell on the side - off the main topic. Did the teacher act impatiently when delayed or held up in traffic, for example, and what was their response to their actions - did they share that they listened to the Holy Spirit and repented, and encourage others to do so; or did they act as if they were justified in their actions (after all they're busy, famous, important, rich, etc. etc.)? Don't be surprised - I've heard my former "pastor" say many things from his stage that told me volumes about his true character.
If you haven't already, scroll back up and read what alphaomega posted a short while ago. Read what Dollar has said, then see if it lines up with God's Word. You'll have your answers.
Cybermom |
ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)
New member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.25.175.179
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
|
hey all
I use to listen to all of the TV preachers when I was new in faith
Creflo and others would (will) begin to speak in what they call tounges
except it was unintelligable, definately not the biblical account of what happens in Acts2 (Pentacost) where 'all' that heard the words of the Holy Spirit, through the deciples, heard and understood what was being said. It wasn't "mumbo jumbo" like so many preachers seam to be using.
These false teachers are either using their version of tounges in an attemp to fool people into PAYING THEM, or are so spiritually weak, and not founded in God's Word that they can be made a fool of by familiar spirits (bad guys).
Which ever the one, the Lord has led me to understand the significance of tounges and how to discern between truth and disception
God is not the author of confusion
If unintelligable tounges are in your ministry, that's a sign against that church or pastor
We all need biblical truth, not guessing what something means
Read for yourselves and discern!
WHAT KEY DO YOU HAVE?
Wachman watch
Love to all who love JESUS |
mikko (mikko)
Intermediate Member
Username: mikko
Post Number: 298
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.242.21.100
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
|
if im praying TO GOD in tongues he don't need an interpreter.... |
ezekiel_37 (ezekiel_37)
Junior Member
Username: ezekiel_37
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 209.82.57.36
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
|
For those who want to descern
CD and many other so called teachers of Gods Word use evil in their chrches
If a minister starts to speak in an unknown tounge(mumbo jumbo) it is not comming from God
Our Father is not the author of confusion
The example of the gift of tounges in ACTS is exactly the opposite of what CD and others claim
The Pentacostal tounge (a gift from the Holy Spirit) is a language that all can understand, reguardless of the language you speak or understand
It is not MUMBO JUMBO like we here on the tube these days
That alone should be enough to keep you as far away from these ministers as you can get
Discernment is paramount in our age
Peace
c |
anoynomous (anoynomous)
Junior Member
Username: anoynomous
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 64.53.137.20
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
|
not true when they or may i say the 120 in the upper room were speaking in tongues as the
HOLY GHOST gave the utterance, did they understand each other? you fail to relize what GOD DID.
there was a central language, they did'nt need
to speak in tongues for a message. YOU SEE OUT
OF THE ABAUNDANCE OF THE HEART THE MOUTH SPEAKETH.
WHAT IS THE MOST UNRULY MEMBER OF YOUR BODY THE
BIBLE SAYS THE TONGUE. WHEN THE HOLY GHOST COMES
HE COMES IN AND TAKE OVER YOUR TONGUE ,IN TURN
YOUR WHOLE LIFE. |
rachelengland (rachelengland)
Intermediate Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 237
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 4.159.113.238
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
|
wow take over my tongue? and what does he plan to do with it? i don't think i want anyone controlling my tongue??? and the name Creflo Dolar-that's gotta tell you something the dudes a pimp. |
ihavesinned (ihavesinned)
Advanced Member
Username: ihavesinned
Post Number: 550
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.112.180.149
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
|
what about typing in tongues? |
rachelengland (rachelengland)
Intermediate Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 241
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 4.159.113.238
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
|
I don't get it but i'm laughing anyway!I mean these keyboards are filthy so no one should probably put their tongues on the keys-is that what you meant |
gsrh (gsrh)
Intermediate Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 110
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 69.209.52.17
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
|
 |
rachelengland (rachelengland)
Intermediate Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 310
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 4.159.5.5
| | Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
|
am i missing something here? |
ultimate1 (ultimate1)
Intermediate Member
Username: ultimate1
Post Number: 447
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.37.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
|
Creflo's latest thing is believing for a G5 Gulstream pasenger jet airplane to upgrade from his present airplane.
That plane retails for fifty million dollars.
How many people could be saved and discipled with fifty million dollars?
How many churches could be planted with $50,000,000 ???
What bad stewardship of money.
He has no need for an airplane.
He even stated one of his main reasons for wanting the airplanes was so he could avoid people he decribes as the riff raff in airports.
He has lost his heart for souls as he looks down on them.
He has traded his soul for greed and money.
"Your heart will be where your money is" |
elisafuk (elisafuk)
New member
Username: elisafuk
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 86.137.159.87
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:43 pm: |
|
He is a fake. (Top of the page)..he didn;t give the jet to KCM! least that is not what KC said about it!!!NOt that it matters anyway.
By their works or lack of it they are known.
I approached the ministry several times for assistance and they didn;t help even though I was a vision partner who had tithed faithfully.
CDEurope is not sending out Gift Aid forms Im still waiting for mine after I month.
(It is a Tax form that we fill out so we dont pay tax which the ministry can claim back from the U.K government if they(CD) show the records. do the math as you say..)
You all can email them and let them know that I will be needing it.
I would like my money back from the ministry - they didn;t do much praying an covering did they? seeing as my screenplay and livlihood was infringed upon and the 'mininstry' didnt;even offer counsel as to what to do let alone money to get a lawyer.
Besides he resigned from CDE board in 2004.(see:www.charitiescommissions).
Maybe the drive for money for new camera equipment is a fake drive too - as I asked the ministry to sow the equipment by selling it to me they said no they didn;t have any to sell. Why do they have the drive for new equipment on the CD website what did they do with the old?.... |
gsrh (gsrh)
Intermediate Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.167.0.42
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 8:50 pm: |
|
lolol....don't hold your breath.
I am still waiting for the free cd's and video's they offered 4 years ago. Whenever I call to inquire about them (I still do from time to time for kicks and giggles.), I am always asked if I want to give a love gift. I simply reply that I would love to receive the gift that was prmosied on television. |
gsrh (gsrh)
Intermediate Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 135
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.167.0.42
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 8:58 pm: |
|
I really enjoy watching his broadcasts. I am amused and impressed with the biblical and doctrinal manipulations and twists. It takes a lot of talent and pathology to decieve so many.
However, I am still praying for all of those people. |
trsrinheaven (trsrinheaven)
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 308
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
|
THE GRUMMAN GULFSTREAM GUYS
· Creflo Dollar Fred Price, and Brother Benny Hinn all have their own Grumman Gulfstream II's. With a two-man crew and 19 passengers, these babies cruise at 581 mph with a range of 4,275 miles. Used, they're worth about $4.5 million each. Creflo also stated he hardly drives his Black Rolls Royce and is looking at buying a GS-5 pricetag of $45-50 million. Creflo recently stated in a large meeting,'now that he travels by private owned jet he's glad he doesn't have to deal with the riff raff that travel commercial and hangs out in the airports'.(Thats all his duped congregation and followers.)
How can someone be so full of arrogant pride, and people still give their hard earned money with no results of Souls won.
Of course, Creflo and other televangelists must pay dearly for this luxury. With the high cost of jet fuel and the cost of regular FAA inspections, typical operating cost runs between $2,000 and $4,000 per hour. |
jesus_freak
New member
Username: jesus_freak
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 70.247.39.28
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
|
Persecution validates the persecuted as A MAN OF GOD |
gsrh
Intermediate Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 192
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.167.0.42
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 8:53 pm: |
|
What piece of toilet paper was that written on? |
getagrip
Junior Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 49
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 65.13.197.170
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:35 pm: |
|
Call AWMI... tell them TRSinHeaven is on the line.
Kenneth Copeland sent me an 18 CD Series from the Great Lakes Regional Convention and 3 or 4 DVD's last year FREE OF CHARGE. He gave me several books last year FREE of charge. He sends 50 copies of his magazine for our nursing home ministry every month FREE OF CHARGE. He GIVES us hundreds of dollars of ministry materials/resources FREE of charge, EVERY YEAR.
TRSINHEAVEN gives to ministries (AWMI) who financially support the ministries (KCM) that TRS attacks. What a tremendously bad steward of God's money he is. |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 301
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:53 pm: |
|
HEY geta hate check?
I have my own company so I pay myself and my time is my own.
But you waste peoples offering money you deceitfully collect.
So this is what you do with the free will offering money THAT you get paid from?
You browse the internet and support Creflo and Copeland spending Fifty Million dollars on airplanes, and Rolex watches Rolls Royces etc...and you call that good stewardship.
All these fools evil greed lustifilled speding on these in depth articles linked below.
Click....
Creflos greed machine...
http://wittenburgdoor.com/archives/airmen.html
http://www.trinityfi.org/
Kenneth Copelands Airportlink below.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/4T2 |
getagrip
Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 65.13.197.170
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:12 pm: |
|
TRS/ULT1/IM:
Call AWMI. You KNOW the ministry heads, you own your own business, you have all the cut and pastes. Tell them that TRSINHEAVEN, Mike Fehlauer and Andrew's close friend from Chicago is on the phone and ask them the following...
1) Do you financially support KCM?
2) Do you like the marketing campaign I am running on your behalf on Factnet?
I have the answers to these two questions already, let's compare with yours. |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 306
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:26 pm: |
|
geta life,
You waste peoples offering money that you deceitfully collect.
This is what you do with the free will offering money THAT you get paid from?
You browse the internet and support Creflo and Copeland spending Fifty Million dollars on airplanes, and Rolex watches Rolls Royces etc...and you call that good stewardship.
No one gives MONEY to Murdock, Copeland or Creflo Dollar, expecting them to use it on their airplanes, African lions, Rolex watches, their WASTED Rolls Royce, $5,000 suits etc.
People give it expecting it to get souls saved.
Check all these fools, and their evil, greed,lustfilled spending in these in depth articles linked below.
Click the link of articles with the facts about these and the other evil stewards....
http://wittenburgdoor.com/archives/airmen.html
http://www.trinityfi.org/
Kenneth Copelands Airportlink below.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/4T2
Their hearts are in airplanes, African lions, Rolex watches,...the worlds overpriced junk status symbols and not people. |
getagrip
Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 65.13.197.170
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:37 pm: |
|
C'mon don't keep posting under this one, it's actually pretty funny...
TRS/ULT1/IM:
Call AWMI. You KNOW the ministry heads, you own your own business, you have all the cut and pastes. Tell them that TRSINHEAVEN, Mike Fehlauer and Andrew's close friend from Chicago is on the phone and ask them the following...
1) Do you financially support KCM?
2) Do you like the marketing campaign I am running on your behalf on Factnet?
I have the answers to these two questions already, let's compare with yours. |
tlee
New member
Username: tlee
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 4.254.117.117
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:51 pm: |
|
Romans 1:29 2:10 amplified version Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envey and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, and boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
[They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
Though they are fully aware of God's righteous degree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.
Therefore you have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who judges and judge and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same thing [that you censure and denounce].
[But] we know that the judgment (adverse verdict, sentence) of God falls justly and in accordance with truth upon those who practice such things.
And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such thngs and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God's judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict?
Or are you [so blind as to} trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and longsuffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent (to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?
But by your callous stubbornness and impenitence of heart you are storing up wrath and indignation for yourself on the day of wrath and indignation, when God's righteous judgment (just doom) will be revealed.
For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]: To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [the eternal blessed-ness of ] immortality, He will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.
[And] there will be tribulation and anguish and calmity and constriant for every soul of man who [habitually] does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).
This is God's Word His wisdom, His warning to you... |
gsrh
Intermediate Member
Username: gsrh
Post Number: 186
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.167.0.42
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 2:16 pm: |
|
That was soooo deep tlee. Awe inspiring type of deep. If I had some time, I would cut & paste scriptures that would scare the heck out of stupid people who don't read or comprehend the bible for themselves, but I will leave those honors to you. Creflo and the crew are still up to their same tricks. Preaching the same sermons over and over. I have to give them credit for being able to pack a house...they flock to see these guys. |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 338
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
|
Check Creflo and all these fools, and their evil, greed,lustfilled spending in these in depth articles linked below.
Click the link of articles with the facts about these and the other evil stewards....
http://wittenburgdoor.com/archives/airmen.html
http://www.trinityfi.org/
Kenneth Copelands Airportlink below.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/4T2
Their hearts are in airplanes, African lions, Rolex watches,...the worlds overpriced junk status symbols and not people.
THE BIBLE IS CLEAR TO QUIT SUBSIDIZING these NO RESULTS LOW FRUIT MINISTRIES...ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT SPEND FRIVOLOUSLY FOR LUXURIES, have little to no results of souls won, AND GIVE NO ACCOUNTING OR REFUSE to offer FINANCIAL STATEMENTS TO INSURE HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT...unlike other ministry of high integrity.
Jesus states it plainly...in Luke 16
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 7:16-18
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Creflo, Copeland, and Murdock bring forth NO SOULS won for all the money they spend that people send him.
They put expensive suits, watches, Rolls Royces and airplanes above people.
"Their heart is where their treasure is" in things not people.
THE BIBLE IS CLEAR TO QUIT SUBSIDIZING THESE NO RESULTS LOW FRUIT MINISTRIES...ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT SPEND FRIVOLOUSLY FOR LUXURIES AND GIVE NO ACCOUNTING OR FINANCIAL STATEMENTS TO INSURE HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT. |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 72.145.213.88
| | Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 10:50 am: |
|
I've written an article addressing the false teachings of the Word-Faith Movement. In addition to exposing the errors of their teachings, the article also contains many audio files of the heretical statements made by Word-Faith teachers. It can be found at:
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 137
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.1
| | Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 1:01 pm: |
|
Folks,
I am going to interject something. As a personal adherent to the WOF theology (in part, not in whole), I can say that Creflo, Copeland, and Mike Murdock DO win souls. They DO bear fruit, and have sound, Biblical teaching.
Recently, I have been personally blessed by Creflo Dollar's teachings concerning emotional issues and rejection, which are extremely valid, and also a blessing to the Body of Christ! |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 208.61.102.5
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:31 am: |
|
All false teachers (including those outside Christianity) bear some good fruit (works and doctrine). They use this tactic to cloak their false doctrines in order to deceive and prey on their unsuspecting supporters. An effective method to gain the loyalty of their victims involves emotional support and resolutions.
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 378
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |
|
Creflo cloaks his lusts and spending with a few good works yet never gives any accountability or proof of how many souls won, or finacial statements how the money is spent.
Thousands of people go into a Godless eternity neglected by Christians who gave their money to Creflo Dollar so Creflo can buy his $5,000 zoot suits, Rolls Royce and $50million dollar Gulfstream airplane like Murdock and Copeland.
This is spiritual murder evil bad stewardship neglecting Gods priority of reconciling others to God with the Gospel. |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 379
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
|
He puts things, power and money above people and souls.
"His heart is where his treasure(money) is" Mt9:21 |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 156
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 71.251.104.149
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
|
Sisko/TRS
The Starship Enterprise had a cloaking device, is it similar to this, in your opinion? |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 342
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.236.22.128
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
|
getagrip,
I have to say I really appreciate you....
Sisko, I am glad you provided your personal website because it reveals the type of people who go after these ministries. Your "biography" is very telling about the kind of man you are. You are self-satisfied that you are "self-willed" and "opinionated". You are "divorced" but you give advice to another poster how you would handle your wife--- You wrote, "Now...if my wife refuses to acknowledge and comply with the Word, I would kindly, with love let her know that she is being disobedient.
If my wife alleges that God told her to attend WCCI, I would have to question that because why would God lead a person to a false teacher when His word clearly commands us to separate from those who teach false doctrine? " I do not know if you divorced after this, but, perhaps God did lead your wife to "separate" from you who teach false doctrine and use your position as husband to "control" her and take the place of God in her life. The Word is Jesus Christ, but you would usurp Christ's role in your wife's life. You are a very dangerous man. And by your own words God is able to set your wife free.
The more I read from men like yourself who put up websites to accuse ministries the more I discover that they share much of your dominating characteristics. They themselves tend to be low achievers, yet they have a ferocious need to control and dominate others and force their "opinions" on other. They, like yourself, use well-known ministries to draw attention to themselves. Their motives is self promotion and they rob and cheat the Kingdom of God and lead many astray. They are nothing more than "raiders". Proverbs 24:15,16 says--" Do not lie in wait like an outlaw against a righteous man's house, do not raid his dwelling place; for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity."
(Message edited by hope_faith_and_love on June 13, 2006)
(Message edited by hope_faith_and_love on June 13, 2006) |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.219.212.163
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 1:21 pm: |
|
hope_faith_and_love
Thanks for your comments and for visiting my website. It was greatly appreciated.
You need to understand that it is the responsibility of every Believer to test, expose, rebuke, correct, and separate from those who persist in teaching false doctrines. I find it interesting that many ministers and their supporters will rebuke false religions/doctrines outside of the "church", but when someone points out and exposes false teachings within the church (as the Bible clearly states)then many become offended. It grieves my spirit to see so many unsuspecting Christians deceived -- in many cases it is due to self-imposed blindness as a result of ministerial idolatry. Those who blatantly tolerate false doctrines -- exalting man before God and the verity of scriptures cannot truly be saved.
I find it interesting, but not surprising that in your offense, you misrepresent my character by taking out of context and reading into my biography (as well as my personal life) what it doesn't state. I stated that I'm "strong-willed (not self-willed as you allege) and opinionated" ... meaning that I'm politically incorrect; and a non-conformist to the world system. Under no circumstances will I compromise the truth of God's Word so that I may be liked or accepted by you or anyone else. If you consider my stand as "dominating", then so be it.
Yes, I am divorced; but I'm about to remarry next month. I will not discuss the intricate and personals details of my former marriage. That is a private matter. However, if you believe that a divorced person cannot offer advice to someone who is married, then I must say that you have been mentally conditioned (possibly by Word-Faith teachers) or you simply just don't know any better. One should not judge marital status, but rather character.
The purpose of my website is to alert sincere, well-meaning Christians of the dangers of the the Word-Faith Movement. As mentioned, that is my commission. You allege that I teach false doctrine. Anyone can say that. But, where is your proof? Can you offer a constructive rebuttal to the articles on my website (with supporting scriptures in context)? Am I wrong for testing the teachings of the Word-Faith movement? If so, then were the Bereans wrong for testing the teachings of the Apostle Paul (Acts 17:11)? And what about all the other scriptures that commands us to be on the watch for false teachers (and their corresponding false doctrines) in the church?
The Word of God states that many people will be mislead by false teachers. The Apostle Paul encountered this predicament with the church in Corinth. He (Paul) alerted these people that they were following false apostles, ministers of darkness disguised as angels of light. I wonder if were they offended??
God Bless You.
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 343
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.236.22.128
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 2:26 pm: |
|
Sisko,
It is still leaning into your own understanding. As you boldly testify about yourself you are "strong-willed" which means to be "strong-minded"-- this is not having the mind of Christ and this is what has led you into teaching false doctrines. Setting up a website was too easy to do. To you Creflo Dollar has it easy, but his achievements are examples of being blessed by God. Your very ways is to usurp your will in place of God's Will. With you there does not appear to be any distinguishing between the two. This is how you have become deceived. And this is how men lift themselves up to take the place of God's sovereignty. God will not share His glory with any man.... And apparently you would not either. You do not bring glory to God but to yourself.
Christian men like Creflo Dollar's lives and achievements bring glory to God... But you want to destroy them. He comes through the front gate. He is the watchman that opens the gate for Jesus Christ and the sheep hear the voice of Christ through these watchmen. You are a stranger. You are the thief that has come "only to steal and kill and destroy."
You are the false teacher and those like you. You do not lead people to Christ--- instead you use the names of ministers who are leading people to Jesus Christ to draw them into your trap. You posted your website here on factnet to draw attention to yourself. You and others like you are "climbing in by some other way"--- you are thieves and robbers. This is what Jesus was referring to in John 10:1-11 "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a strangers voice." Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.}
Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.} |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 383
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
|
hope faith and love
Prove how many souls are won by Creflo. Dollar's so called ministry. You can't because he gives no accounting for results, and no accounting ever for how the offering money is spent.
I and other friends of mine have met him and he was and is an arrogant jerk with an insecure attitude of superiority. Jesus and his diciples hung out and ministered to all and with the common everyday people.
Creflo put himself in this position and is a public figure who publically and deceivingly has abused countless peoples trust, money, and souls.
Know this that Layman and even women rebuked and exposed leaders all throughout the Bible.
Paul, who was not an original disciple, even rebuked Peter, publically. The word also says teachers are expected to be held to the even higher standards and stewardship.
Gods WORD is what is "exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart."
Gods word says your money, treasure(mammon) is where your HEART is" Matthew 9:21
http://wittenburgdoor.com/archives/airmen.html
http://www.trinityfi.org/
I judge the wrong actions and opinions with the word. In this case it easy for all to see Creflo's lust and heart in things not people by the things where he puts the churches treasure. In his extravagance.
Creflo's heart is in airplanes, Rolex watches, his Black Rolls Royce...the worlds STATUS SYMBOL overpriced junk status symbols and not winning people.
He uses offering money for STATUS symbol things not winning souls.
THE BIBLE IS CLEAR TO QUIT SUBSIDIZING these NO RESULTS LOW FRUIT MINISTRIES...ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT SPEND FRIVOLOUSLY FOR LUXURIES, have little to no results of souls won, AND GIVE NO ACCOUNTING OR REFUSE to offer FINANCIAL STATEMENTS TO INSURE HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT...unlike other ministry of high integrity.
Jesus states it plainly...in Luke 16
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Gods word says in Hebrews Gods word judges the heart, thoughts, and actions. 4:12
Hebrews 4:12 (ampl original Greek)
"For the Word of God is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life separating the (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart."
Read your Bible.
Creflo Dollar nor anyone is by no means above reproach, exposure, rebuke, etc. Dollar is just an abusive, deceiving blind man who a few novice blind people follow. Until you open your spiritual eyes and renew your mind you continue to support and subsidize this evil.
The Holy Spirit knows the truth. Just ask Him to show you. Romans 8:14
Jesus told us how to JUDGE.
"You shall know them by their fruit." Mt 7: Mt 3:
He that is not faithful in money(little) shall not be faithful or wise in the more important things. Luke 16 |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.219.212.163
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 4:48 pm: |
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hope_faith_and_love,
Thanks again for your comments.
Do you know that Creflo Dollar's teachings along with other Word-Faith teachers' doctrines are rooted in the occult? They (their teachings) began with a man by the name of Phineas P. Quimby; who was the father of New Thought/Science of Mind cult. Quimby's teachings were adopted by Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science. This doctrinal perversion was intermixed with the teachings of E.W. Kenyon ... a proponent of Unitarian falsehoods. If you study and research their teachings, you will discover that they parallel the teachings of Mr. Dollar and many other Word-Faith proponents. This is a fact. Don't you care? If you are a Christian, you should.
You continue to allege that I'm "leaning into my own understanding"; yet you provide no scriptures to support your allegations. The scriptures contained in your messages have no relevance to the issues at hand and indicate that you are still immature in biblical exegesis. As mentioned previously, the Bible commands us to investigate the teachings of all who "claim" to be called by God and compare them to what the Bible actually teaches.
Your offense allows you to conveniently redefine the context of my biography ...relying more on ill speculations rather than facts. Perhaps this helps to bring comfort to your wounded emotions, and support your belief that you are defending your "god" (man of god).
The only way to discover the truth about this matter is to study the Bible in context and have a doctrinal analysis (which is thoroughly presented in my articles). If you disagree with something I've said, then tell me why you disagree with supporting scriptures in context. Is that too difficult for you? You would prefer to dodge this examination however, because it threatens your self-deceived position.
You have the free-will to believe whatever you wish about me. There is absolutely nothing I can do about this. One of my objectives is to encourage others in sound doctrine. Since you are a worshipper of man, rather than God; cannot offer a construtive rebuttal without speculative accusations, then please feel free to have it your way. To debate with someone who has been fed spoiled milk; preferring to walk in self-imposed ignorance, is simply a waste of valuable time. I pray that one day you will see the light.
In His Sovereign Grace,
Victor T. Stephens
p://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm |
hope_faith_and_love
Intermediate Member
Username: hope_faith_and_love
Post Number: 345
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.236.22.128
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
|
Sisko,
You wrote---"If you study and research their teachings, you will discover that they parallel the teachings of Mr. Dollar and many other Word-Faith proponents." You tell me to "open" myself up to the "father of New Thought/Science of Mind cult." Maybe that is what you did. Those who want to discredit the Gospel and the Bible always imply that the Bible is copied from other sources... But the Bible, the Word of God is very different because it is alive! No matter how people might want to construe the meaning of other written works, those who listen only to the voice of Jesus Christ, the Word, will never listen to them! The Holy Spirit that dwells in me stirs me to run from your suggestion.
trsinheaven,
You demanded I "prove"(To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence)of the souls won by Creflo Dollar Ministries so the Holy Spirit led me to search Creflo Dollar's website. There was so much to sort through and to read-- so much teaching!!! As I made notes the Holy Spirit reminded me of something He had taught me several years ago about Jesus passing by a fig tree and became angry when that tree bore no fruit for Him to eat.... The Holy Spirit stirred in me with joy and showed me that I was just passing by and I had found spiritual food to eat.
TRS, as for your demand for count of souls it has become one of your cunning little traps to accuse ministries with, but in Revelations 7:9 says "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing whie robes and where holding palm branches in their hands." Could it be that we are entering into predestined time in which the Holy Spirit is moving so that it is impossible to count souls won to Jesus Christ? |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 385
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
|
hope faith and love,
No trap! You are a little paranoid aren't you?
You conveniently AVOID the question because you can't answer your foolish generality non valid statement. Again "Prove how many souls are won by Creflo."
All other ministries with integrity can prove by their good follow up how many souls are won with the money and outreach.
Results are necessary for good manaagement and stewardship to prove which to prune, which to end, and which to support.
Change the losing strategies and support the winning ones. Jesus TOLD US AND called us "TO BEAR MUCH FRUIT"
John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:16-18 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Also all other ministries with integrity give audited financial statements yearly and post them on the internet to show how good stewardship of the offering money entrusted to them.
Creflo Dollar never has and never does. WHY?
This is just simple wise common sense and Godly stewardship.
It is just plain subsidizing of bad stewardship, stupid and foolish to give some guy money who NEVER shows you results and what they do with it. |
bear
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 472
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.112.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 8:27 pm: |
|
We have to look at a ministry as a whole, not just how many people get saved. My question is, how many are getting discipled?
While I believe in biblical prosperity; it is there in black and white, I do not hold to the perverted prosperity doctrines of CD.
I am currently in a church of about 500. however, I came from, and was on staff at, a church of over 8,000. I have seen the big church done correctly.
CD's church is not one that I would say is "done correctly".
So, it does not matter how many people answer a call to receive Christ. No, the doctrines that are taught in a church must also be examined. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 176
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 129.15.127.253
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 11:01 pm: |
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Bear: What does it mean to have church "done correctly." - ???
I agree with some of CD's church's policies and practices, and disagree with others. |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.223.112.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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bear,
You are correct. Sound doctrine is vitally important; thus it is the responsibility of every believer to discern (in context) what is taught from the pulpit. Large numbers coupled with a prominent personality are not indicators of truth.
What many people at WCCI don't realize is that Mr. Dollar is preaching a different Jesus. Dollar's view of Jesus is one who was rich (loaded with money) and had to suffer in Hell to atone for sins of mankind.
True biblical prosperity is defined as godliness and contentment (1Tim. 6:6); and those who teach that godliness is a means to get rich, such as Creflo Dollar, are conceited, ignorant, corrupt and absent of truth. Thus, we are commanded to separate from such false teachers (1 Tim. 6:4-5).
The Bible gives account of those who were wealthy, as well as those who were poor. This indicates that neither poverty or wealth can be offered as an absolute prescriptive for godliness. The Apostle Paul experienced both of these conditions, and He stated that in whatever situation he found himself, he learned to be content.
Creflo Dollar focuses solely on those who were wealthy, preaches a rich Jesus, and takes many scriptures out of context in order to justify his extravagant lifestyle. For the record, let it be stated for Word-Faith proponents: God is NOT blessings Creflo Dollar with material gain. His wealth comes primarily from his fleece flocking tactics; deceiving the unsuspecting, those unskilled in proper biblical interpretation, and personality worshippers.
www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 178
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 129.15.127.253
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 11:52 pm: |
|
Sisko: I have to disagree with you. While sound doctrine is important, just because you believe that godliness is a means to get rich does not make you a conceited, ignorant, corrupt person. That's not false teaching. |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.223.112.12
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 12:50 am: |
|
jbkrems
Thanks for your comments. You say that you disagree. Let's examine the scriptures.
"If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Tim. 6:3-10 NKJV)
www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 179
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.12.134.190
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 1:52 am: |
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Sisko: I refer you to the discussion on tithing that I am having in another thread (Go to the MorningStar/EveryNation thread, look under Leaders, and then the C. Peter Wagner thread) for further comments.
As to your passage, and I am reading from the NASB (New American Standard) in 1 Tim. 6:6, "But godliness actually is a means of great gain WHEN accompanied by contentment." So, this says that if you have godliness (righteous living) plus contentment in your life, then that is a means to get "great gain," or "rich."
Further down...
Verses 9 and 10 are discussing the same kind of person. In verse 10 it says, "some by longing for it (referring to the love of money) have wandered away from the faith..." --- clearly this cannot be Creflo Dollar, because he preaches Jesus, and he is a devout Christian. He does not love money MORE than God. Clearly, according to these Scriptures "want to get rich" means "love of money."
Lastly, I think there is a difference between desiring God to bless your finances, which can mean anything from getting you out of debt to blessing you with a lot more money, so that you can bless others, and just "getting rich," which means hording money for your self, and is a sin, because of the selfish nature of hording. |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 526
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.201.145.107
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 8:28 am: |
|
As to your passage, and I am reading from the NASB (New American Standard) in 1 Tim. 6:6, "But godliness actually is a means of great gain WHEN accompanied by contentment." So, this says that if you have godliness (righteous living) plus contentment in your life, then that is a means to get "great gain," or "rich."
I think, if you read it in context, this scripture is not saying that one will get rich if they are content ... rather, if you are content and living a godly life, you already are rich.
1 Timothy 6:6-10 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
I think confusion arises because the world's idea of "gain" or "riches" does not agree with God's view.
Luke 16:13-15 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
There are more important things than having great material wealth. Many who consider themselves rich are poor in God's eyes, and those who appear poor to the world are really rich ...
Revelation 3:17-22 `Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Revelation 2:8-9 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: `I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 388
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
|
The true prosperity message is Mt 6:33 seeking relationship with God others come into relationship with God not self centered lusts.
GODLINESS Following Gods direction and being satisfied is the gain he is talking about not worldly riches.
There are no Brinks trucks and moving vans following hearses.
Instead true prosperity comes from "You seek first the kingdom and all these things will be added unto to you. Mt 6:33 FIRST and foremost Seek relationship with God and sharing the good news Gods calling to all Christians of reconciling others to God. 2Cor5
1Timothy 6 But Godliness with contentment is great gain. (not worldly riches)
7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Ampl Original Greek 1Tim 5 "And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.
6[And it is, indeed, a source of immense profit, for] godliness accompanied with contentment (that contentment which is a sense of inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain.
7For we brought nothing into the world, and obviously we cannot take anything out of the world;
8But if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content (satisfied).
9But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.
10For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many acute [mental] pangs.
11But as for you, O man of God, flee from all these things; aim at and pursue righteousness (right standing with God and true goodness), godliness (which is the loving fear of God and being Christlike), faith, love, steadfastness (patience), and gentleness of heart.
FIRST and foremost Seek relationship with God, reconciling others to God and everthing you have need of is automatically added to you. Mt 6:33 |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.223.112.12
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 10:37 am: |
|
marta,
You are absolutely correct. Your explanation serves an a great example of how to put scriptures in proper context (rightly dividing the Word of Truth). If we accept the Word-Faith's definition of riches, then that would create inconsistencies within the scriptures. Not all of God's people were financially rich. Here are exerpts from my article:
_________________________________________________
While the Word-Faith teachers are contending that the disciples were rich, Peter is saying:
1. "Silver and gold I do not have..." (Acts 3:6)
2. Paul, the man who Avanzini claims had enough money to block up justice, says, "To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless..." (1Cor. 4:11)
3. Paul also says, "But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: ....as poor, yet making many rich (spiritually); as having nothing, and yet possessing all things (spiritual riches)." (2 Cor. 6:4,10)
4. He continues stating, "And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content." (1 Timothy 6:8)
5. The author of Hebrews states: "They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented -- of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth." (Heb. 11:37)
6. Furthermore, in Luke 22:36, Jesus says to the disciples: "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." If the disciples were rich, they would be able to purchase a sword rather than sell their clothes in order to buy one.
How anyone can read these passages, yet contest that the disciples were rich is nothing short of a convenient denial of reality to preserve an agenda. With militant vigilance, Word-Faith proponents blatantly defy doctrinal purity to shield their program of flock fleecing; confidently aware that the flock will gladly tolerate their false teachings. (2 Cor. 11:4,13-15)
________________________________________________
www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_018.htm
jbkrems:
In regards to tithing, God never gave a command to the Christian Church to tithe. Tithing was a command solely for the nation of Israel. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating not giving to those in need. As believers, we should have an attitude of generosity. However, under the new covenant, there is no prescribed percentage for giving. On my website I've written a very detailed article that addresses this issue.
www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_014.htm |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 180
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.1
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 1:30 pm: |
|
Marta: I think 1 Tim 6:6 is present future tense; you will get "great gain," not have done so already.
You can love God more than money, and be financially blessed or "rich" at the same time.
Sisko, let me respond to those quotations:
1. That's taking Acts 3 out of context. They just did not have the money with them at the moment.
2. Again, it is out of context. Paul had financial resources, but maybe at the present time they were unavailable to him.
3. Don't spiritualize that passage; that is not what it means. It really means BOTH spiritually AND financially rich.
4. Contentment plus godliness = "great gain."
5. Hebrews 7 says we should tithe, and if you add Malachi 3, we'll be blessed financially if we do (and cursed if we do not).
6. Just because you are rich does not mean you take it everywhere you go; most people who have financially-blessed resources have their money in a bank for safe-keeping.
One other note on tithing, God does exhort the believer to tithe in Hebrews 7, which is a re-count of when Abraham tithed, BEFORE the Law. Jacob ALSO tithed before the Law of Moses. Both did so as a matter of faith, love, and obedience towards God, not out of duty to the Mosaic Law. |
trsrinheaven
Intermediate Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 389
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 67.175.31.119
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 2:57 pm: |
|
jvkrems,
Read the total passage or you miss the point.
Taking two word out of context.
The total text in context is stating seeking money is not great gain. it is profit of Godliness accompanied with contentment
In the original literal greek as written verse six says "it is, indeed, a source of immense profit,FOR for godliness accompanied with contentment} (that contentment which is a sense of inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain. It does not say or mean it yields money.
Ampl Original Greek,
1Tim 5:5-11 "And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.
6And it is, indeed, a source of immense profit, for godliness accompanied with contentment (that contentment which is a sense of inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain.
7For we brought nothing into the world, and obviously we cannot take anything out of the world;
8But if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content (satisfied).
9But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.
10For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many acute [mental] pangs.
11But as for you, O man of God, flee from all these things; aim at and pursue righteousness (right standing with God and true goodness), godliness (which is the loving fear of God and being Christlike), faith, love, steadfastness (patience), and gentleness of heart. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 184
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.1
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |
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trsninheaven: I think you are mis-analyzing the passage. I think, even according to the Amplified, "a source of immense profit" because "godliness accompanied w/contentment" is "great and abundant gain." Its not spiritual riches, but "great gain" in terms of financial blessing. I don't think it means "inward sufficiency" necessarily. That's limiting it too much. |
bear
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 473
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.247.112.45
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 8:01 pm: |
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To All: When I said biblical prosperity, I was speaking about money.
Prosperity comes in many forms; money is one of them. When someone claims to have the "one" meaning of prosperity, they are shallow in their understanding on the subject from a biblical view.
I believe that God will bless us. I have a Christian friend who is in real estate; he makes a healthy 6 figure income. However, he is not stingy, nor does he look down on anothers faith just because they are without.
Jbkrems,
What did I mean by "church done correctly"?
Well, one that is focused on people, and not their finances. One that preaches sound doctrine, not a perverted interpretation of the pastor. One where the pastor is respected, not idolized in an unhealthy way.
(Message edited by bear on June 15, 2006) |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 186
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 208.54.95.1
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 8:18 pm: |
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Bear: So, why do you think Creflo's church is not done right?
He focuses on the people, and in empowering and equipping them to accomplish what God has called them to do.
He preaches sound doctrine.
He is respected, but not idolized.
What's wrong? |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.209.16.91
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 1:12 am: |
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jbkrems
1. Your suggestion that they (actually Peter) didn't have funds at the time is an assumption, not a fact. If we take a look at Matthew 17:24-27, we will discover that Jesus paid the temple tax by causing a coin to appear in a fishes' mouth. If Jesus was financially rich, why didn't He just pay the temple tax from the large sums of money He had? Is it because He didn't have the financial resources at the time? If a person is rich, he will at least carry some amount of money on his person.
2. In regards to Paul, there were times when He was rich, and times when he was poor. Observing Paul's more balanced perspective, he says:
"Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned to both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer in need." (Phil.4:11-12).
Let's now observe Matthew 6:33.
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Creflo Dollar and other Word-Faith teachers use this verse to promote their prosperity gospel. Let's now take a look at the preceeding verses so that we can put this in proper context.
"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things." (Matthew 6:31-32)
Thus, in verse 33, God is referring to the basic needs of life, not large sums of money or other assets. If we examine all the scriptures in context relating to wealth, we will learn that neither poverty nor wealth can be offered as an absolute prescriptive for godliness. In God's perspective, wealth is a state of godliness and contentment. Thus, one becomes rich by accepting Christ and learning to be content in whatever state one is in. To allege that godliness is a guarantee of extravagant resources and wealth is outright false doctrine. The Word-Faith teachers' definition of prosperity parallels that of the world and not God.
3. Yes, it does mean spiritual (and only spiritual) riches. My previous comments should support this.
4. Great gain does not mean huge resources.
5. This is more involved. Hebrews 7 does not say that Christians should tithe. The writer of Hebrews is referring back to tithing before the Mosaic Law solely to illustrate that the Priesthoods of Melchizedek and Jesus is superior to that of the Levitical order. Please refer to my article (A Closer Look At Tithing. The last page has a subsection: In The Order of Melchizedek, that examines this in much greater detail.
www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_017.htm
In Malachi 3, the Lord is speaking through the prophet Malachi to the nation of Israel who were under the Law of Moses. Malachi was not addressing the Gentile Christian Church.
Some other quick facts:
1. The storehouse referenced in Malachi is not equivalent to a church building.
2. The temple is now the body of the believer.
3.The Levitical priesthood has been replaced by all believers.
4. Jesus because a curse for us on the cross.
5. The floodgates of heaven and barns overflowing are not equivalent to large bank accounts, riches, etc.
6. Tithing was practiced before the law as a man-made custom, not "as a matter of faith, love, and obedience towards God." It (tithing) became law due to Jacob's vow (a voluntary pledge). |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 191
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.12.134.190
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 1:40 am: |
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Sisko:
1. Everyone carries some money on them, unless they are dirt poor. The temple tax was the tithe. I don't recall the coin in the fish's mouth. I do recall Jesus saying, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's." I think that means pay your taxes to the civil government, and pay your tithe as well.
2. Regarding Paul and the verse in Phillipians, Paul is telling us that regardless of how we stand financially, we need to be content. That's all. This does not mean we should not be financially blessed, or we should not seek God to bless us financially, etc.
Yes, if we seek first God's kingdom, then God's kingdom will affect every realm of life, including one's finances. After all, the Bible says, "The wealth of the wicked is laid up for the righteous." What do you suppose that means?
I believe you are limiting God in your comments on Matt. 6:33. It says, "Seek first the kingdom, and ALL these things should be added to you." There really is not a limit there. I think it means MORE than just basic needs, and can be extended to (1) meeting our basic needs, (2) meeting our non-basic needs, and (3) giving us enough finances so we can bless others with tithes and offerings.
I think that if we live godly lives, and we obey what God says in His Word, then we should be wholly blessed, in our body, in our finances, in every area of life. This does not mean we are guaranteed extravagant wealth and resources, but if we press into God, we can have whatever we need and more.
3. You are again limiting God to spiritual riches. It means BOTH spiritual AND financial blessings.
4. Great gain = abundance or huge resources. You do not make sense here.
5. Hebrews 7 is an example to us that we should tithe. We are commended to have the faith of Abraham in Hebrews, and in Romans, and one of the things that Abraham did to exercise his faith was tithe to Melchizadek, for which Melchizadek blessed him. We should expect the same from Jesus when we tithe.
As to Malachi not being applicable, read 2 Tim. 3:16.
Finally:
1. The storehouse is not equivalent to a church building --- yes, it is the congregation itself, the organization (not the building).
2. If that was the only aspect of it, we would each tithe to ourselves. The fact is, the tithe did not go to the temple, but to the ministers who served in the temple, which are today's senior pastors (Acts 6:4).
3. That's true.
4. That's true.
5. Only if we tithe will the floodgates open and barns overflow, but that means "financial blessing" which is a generic description. We don't necessarily need large bank accounts, but we will be financially blessd.
6. I disagree completely here. Abraham was led of the Lord to tithe. Otherwise, the story would not be TWICE in the Scriptures (and repeated for us in the NT). Tithing did not become a part of Law until Moses. Jacob's vow did not make it Law. |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.209.16.91
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 2:54 am: |
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jbkrems
1. That was my point. Peter must have been "dirt poor."
The temple tax was not the tithe. As I mentioned, my article proves that tithing is not a commandment for Christians. I encourage you to read it. To illustrate how tithing has been twisted by church leaders, I will attach another excerpt that addresses the temple tax.
_________________________________________________
The Temple Tax
In their endeavors to validate monetary tithing for Christians, many pastors use the following passage as proof that Jesus paid tithes:
Matthew 17:24-27 -- After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes -- from their own sons or from others?"
"From others," Peter answered.
"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him.
"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." (NIV)
Because this passage illustrates money being collected for the support of the temple, the church has found it advantageous to presume that the two-drachma tax is a tithe. Nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality, the two-drachma tax was equal to a half-shekel (two days wages) that was paid each year by every Jewish male 20 years of age and older for the support of the temple (Ex. 30:12-14). Under Nehemiah, the temple tax was equal to one third of a shekel (Neh. 10:32). Nowhere does the Bible
indicate or suggest that the temple tax was a tithe of money.
"The basic Greek coin was the drachma, roughly equivalent to a Roman denarius, or one day's wages. The Greek didrachmon (two drachma piece) was used by the Jews for the half-shekel Temple tax (Matt. 17:24). The silver stater, or tetradrachma, was a four-drachma piece, used to pay the Temple tax (Matt. 17:27)."
--The Illustrated Dictionary of The Bible, Money of The Bible, p.725, Herbert Lockyer, Sr.(Editor)
Let's now examine the above passage further and postulate momentarily that the temple tax was a tithe. Many teachers of tithing point out that since Jesus paid the temple tax, it is therefore the responsibility of every Christian to pay tithes in the form of a "religious" tax. While it is true that Jesus paid the temple tax, most Believers are not cognizant of the fact that this passage discloses that God does not obligate Christians to pay taxes for the support of a church facility.
In verse 25, Jesus says to Peter, "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes -- from their own sons or from others?" In verse 26, Peter replies, "From others." What Christ is indicating to Peter is the fact that earthly kings do not collect taxes from their own sons but from the citizens. Therefore, in like manner, our Heavenly Father does not tax his sons. This is affirmed by Jesus, "Then the sons are exempt". On account of Jesus being the Son of God, and Peter, a son of God (Matt.16:16), both were exempt from paying the temple tax. Since Christians are in a covenant relationship with God, they are also sons of God; and thus exempt from paying any such taxes, much less a tithe as a tax (Gal. 3:26; 4:4-7, Rom. 8:15-17). Jesus paid the temple tax merely not to cause offense to the tax collectors (v.27).
________________________________________________ |
sisko
New member
Username: sisko
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 68.209.16.91
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 2:56 am: |
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jbkrems
Due to time limitations, I will address your other comments/concerns at a later time.
God Bless You. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 141
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.137.30.93
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 3:27 am: |
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To everyone,
I believe that we are no longer under the law of tithing. If God guides to give 10% to the church or more that is fine as long as you are guided by the Holy Spirit and not by external presure from other people.The New testament Christians were giving with happines how they proposed in their hearts. The money collected in the offerings was not normally to support leaders. The money was mainly used for the poor in Jesusalen, the orphans, the widows and to avert a famine.
See Acts 11:27-30 Here the early Chistian according to their ability determined to send relief to avert a severe famine. i.e they determined how much to give to the poor according to what they have. This scripture does not mean proportion I think that means they gave what they could after deciding how much to keep for their own needs. If the New Testament Christian were still under the law of tithing that word would have been used in the new testaments to make it clear. Instead there is not even one verse that shows that the new testament church were giving tithes.
Tithing as far as I know was introduced by the false Catholic church and it was not practised by New Testament christians.
In 1 Cor 16:1-3 Paul ask the Christians to put something according to how God had prospered them.(Please note that Paul did not ask to give a proportion of income like 10%) This offering was not collected for Paul or other christian leaders. It was collected for the poor Christians in Jerusalem.
Finally, I believe that are not under the law and we should give with happiness how we proposed in our heart under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and mainly privately in secret and we should not give because of external pressure from leaders.
Also, if we give to false apostles, false prophets and other false leaders, we are only giving money to help them and others who follow them and their false teachings to go to hell.
Please look at the following website: Tithing is unscriptural
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 142
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.137.30.93
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 3:30 am: |
|
To everyone,
I believe that we are no longer under the law of tithing. If God guides to give 10% to the church or more that is fine as long as you are guided by the Holy Spirit and not by external presure from other people.The New testament Christians were giving with happines how they proposed in their hearts. The money collected in the offerings was not normally to support leaders. The money was mainly used for the poor in Jesusalen, the orphans, the widows and to avert a famine.
See Acts 11:27-30 Here the early Chistian according to their ability determined to send relief to avert a severe famine. i.e they determined how much to give to the poor according to what they have. This scripture does not mean proportion I think that means they gave what they could after deciding how much to keep for their own needs. If the New Testament Christian were still under the law of tithing that word would have been used in the new testaments to make it clear. Instead there is not even one verse that shows that the new testament church were giving tithes.
Tithing as far as I know was introduced by the false Catholic church and it was not practised by New Testament christians.
In 1 Cor 16:1-3 Paul ask the Christians to put something according to how God had prospered them.(Please note that Paul did not ask to give a proportion of income like 10%) This offering was not collected for Paul or other christian leaders. It was collected for the poor Christians in Jerusalem.
Finally, I believe that are not under the law and we should give with happiness how we proposed in our heart under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and mainly privately in secret and we should not give because of external pressure from leaders.
Also, if we give to false apostles, false prophets and other false leaders, we are only giving money to help them and others who follow them and their false teachings to go to hell.
Please look at the following website: Tithing is unscriptural
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html |
john_r_jones
Advanced Member
Username: john_r_jones
Post Number: 620
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 65.13.172.230
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 3:52 am: |
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Sisko,
Hi I'm a motor mouth on another thread here and I glanced your post about the temple tax. I read that passage of scripture that Jesus was nailing Peter about lying about paying the temple tax. I think Jesus didn't pay the tax and heard Peter lie to the religionist because of the fear of man Peter struggled with. When Jesus sent Peter, a fisherman, to catch a fish and find a coin in it's mouth; I think (operative word here is think)it might possibly mean it's preposterous to catch a fish with a coin in its mouth and equally preposterous for the Messiah to pay a temple tax. When He asked Peter who pays a tax to a King the sons or others He referenced His Messianic standing, and by extension Peter's inclusion as a child of God. This is illustrated in His teaching on prayer with the inclusive "Our Father". Jesus' use of the word Father in scripture isn't the formal version of the word, it is the word Abba. Abba as a King is what got Jesus in dutch with the orthodoxy of Judaism. An orthodox Jew was stoned for using God's name period in vain or otherwise. I'm praching to the choir here I'm sure, anyway thanks for your stuff on the thread I've enjoyed perusing it.
John |
getagrip
Intermediate Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 158
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 71.251.104.149
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 8:38 am: |
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"Tithing is unscriptural"...
Then don't tithe. |
marta
Advanced Member
Username: marta
Post Number: 527
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.201.145.107
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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