Ted Haggard OUT OF THERAPY!! Februar...

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post Ted Haggard bogus fund raising-- August 2007 mcmstaff78 167  1  11-22-07  9:51 am Ted Haggard AND Paul Cain are headed your way! stillrecovering 45  1  5-22-07  10:08 pm   Start New Thread

Author Message   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.184.68 Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 5:14 pm:        http://email.newlifechurch.org/emailArchive.jsp?emailID=145 I suspected as much -- what a sham! Just like Swaggart, et al. A few months pass--Dobson and others said YEARS of counselling--and Ted now plans to move away from CO. Springs with his wife, (and his "overseers") to Iowa or MO, takes some on-line courses, and you just know he'll be on a speaker's tour within a year. Very tragic.   hardbones New member Username: hardbones Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 65.95.8.32 Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 8:15 pm:        I agree with the concern over that but I also think he is a sincere xian in spite of his problems. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt. Its not like he part of a cult or something   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 122 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.236.176 Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 9:28 pm:        Personally, I feel "big time" preachers -- like "big time celebs" -- who fall should simply "go away" for a year. Just get counseling, be totally low-key, vanish from public site. But to hear Ted is "cured" and making public statements, public plans for the future, etc leads me to believe he was simply addicted to the limelight and having his name in the paper -- for good things -- being asked his opinion, etc. He couldn't even "last" six months. Finally (!) if you read the link, he states in the e-mail that he accidently "leaked" his plans to the TV station KRDO. I find that hard to believe -- but whatever. It's his life. And I agree, hardbones-- he's a sincere Christian man. I just believe much more time "alone" is needed with therapy, his wife, and most of all, HONEST time with the Lord.   gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.175.6.17 Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 10:20 pm:        I feel an ex gay ministry coming from this guy.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 309 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.167.217 Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 1:47 am:        I've waited to respond until more have... First, I am surprised that they squeezed 3 years into 3 weeks... that sounds strange and unconventional to me. I'm very wary of such counseling and therapy of this nature. Second, I agree with hardbones, we should give him the benefit of the doubt. But I believe we really will know what transpired by the fruits of any ministry that Ted Haggard does in the future. Third, I also agree, in part, with Bachman, that ministers who fall need to spend more time away from public ministry. Of course, Ted has stated he and his wife Gayle are going to go back to school, and take online courses. I imagine he'll be out of public ministry during that time. But we'll see. gsrh, I disagree... I don't think he was formerly gay... I think he might have had uncertainty... but I believe he's always been heterosexual, and according to the latest report, he still is heterosexual. Please, give him the benefit of the doubt.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 310 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.167.217 Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 1:51 am:        I've waited to respond until more have... First, I am surprised that they squeezed 3 years into 3 weeks... that sounds strange and unconventional to me. I'm very wary of such counseling and therapy of this nature. Second, I agree with hardbones, we should give him the benefit of the doubt. But I believe we really will know what transpired by the fruits of any ministry that Ted Haggard does in the future. Third, I also agree, in part, with Bachman, that ministers who fall need to spend more time away from public ministry. Of course, Ted has stated he and his wife Gayle are going to go back to school, and take online courses. I imagine he'll be out of public ministry during that time. But we'll see. gsrh, I disagree... I don't think he was formerly gay... I think he might have had uncertainty... but I believe he's always been heterosexual, and according to the latest report, he still is heterosexual. Please, give him the benefit of the doubt.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2640 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:59 am:        I feel an ex gay ministry coming from this guy.(grsh) Grsh, it funny you should say that, I remember a preacher coming to my church when I was young- I believe his name was Mike Williams. He was a one time homosexual who supposedly led Rock Hudson to the Lord, shortly before he died. This man married and seemed to have a normal family life.. This is however different than Haggard, his sins were committed when he stood in a high place in authority and popularity in the church..I agree with many of you..he needs to go away and when he comes back- he needs to maybe stay out of the limelight and work in less lighted areas of the ministry..R   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2305 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.37 Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 12:05 pm:        ..."he needs to maybe stay out of the limelight and work in less lighted areas of the ministry..." Ted Haggard is a shameless liar and an accomplished con-artist. He is also a drug user and a hypocrite who engages in the very dangerous sexual behavior he condemns in others. This man is not any different now than he was before his crash-course in decency. If he has preached and taught that nonsense for years and years and years and it did nothing to slow his drug use and hypocritical sexual behavior does anyone really think this little stint in timeout is going to make a difference? He should be prosecuted and jailed rather than scolded and released to start up where he left off. The man is a criminal, he is a liar and a thief of the worst kind.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2644 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 12:09 pm:        OKAY TO.....I was surprised when I saw his books still on the shelves at the store the other day...   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 801 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.59.45.188 Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:15 pm:        I am not condoning what Haggard did. If you and I did something, not too many will notice. he being a public figure received so much of publicity. Who am I to throw stones at him. I am not perfect. I do not do the things he had done. But, I am myself a sinner regarding other issues. If this is the case, who am I to cast stones at him? Many years ago, I became suicidal. I had therapy only for few months. Only the therapist knows what is Ted's condition. We can say anything we want to. We can also accuse him. Ultimately, he is the only person who knows what is going on inside him.Not even his wife will know what is going on inside him.Let us examine our own lives. Leave him alone pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!!!!!!   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2306 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.53 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:32 am:        "Who am I to throw stones at him. I am not perfec ...he is the only person who knows what is going on inside him" Wow, what happened to all the "by their fruits you will know them" gruff? Throwing stones? ... good grief ... here you have a politically influential leader of a large wealthy church that he founded admitting to do doing the thing he condemns most (look up "hypocrisy") which I think should constitute taking money under false pretenses. "Leave him alone pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!!!!!!" Oh stop that adolescent whining and go have some quite time or something. And stop making excuses and stupid arguments for a hypocritical creep like Ted Haggard for Pete's sake. No wonder the country is in the shape it is in when the morality of public leaders is swept under the rug by the very people who claim superiority in that area.   fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1442 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:42 am:        No wonder the country is in the shape it is in when the morality of public leaders is swept under the rug by the very people who claim superiority in that area. that is the stranglehold that christianity has on people. the words in that book can be used to manipulate people very well. it is time for people to remove themselves from this horrible mess that passes as the way to mankind's salvation.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2308 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.57 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:57 am:        "as the way to mankind's salvation." Don't you think that the search for 'salvation' is rooted in the false belief that a human being can be perfected. It is pretty obvious that Human Beings cannot be 'perfected.' To pursue an unrealistic vision is foolishness and counterproductive. Accepting our lot and dealing with it is the only mature, responsible, and dare I say 'sane' thing to do. Otherwise we dwell in a false innocence, a false childhood, never becoming a functioning adult, where we are endlessly looking for someone to take care of us and make everything right. It is necessary for us to loose our childhood innocence where someone was always there to take care of us (of course there are exceptions) and accept the adult world where we are all alone and have to take care of ourselves. We have to stop chasing the wild goose of supernaturalism.   fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1445 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:01 pm:        Don't you think that the search for 'salvation' is rooted in the false belief that a human being can be perfected. i see salvation as being saved from ouselves. it's purpose is our happiness. my experience has been that any religion, if interpreted as mythology can bring these results. in fact, many are saying that they are experienceing this peace and happiness from something as simple as believing that we create our own world. in doing this they are in effect doing the same things as many do with there religions. they believe that they can change their life for the better. that belief is sometimes all that is necessary for people to be happy. the nature of belief is something that i intend to study. the placebo effect should be an interesting study. Accepting our lot and dealing with it is the only mature, responsible, and dare I say 'sane' thing to do. i do not believe that our life consists of just accepting our lot. i think life has unimaginable happiness for any who are taught how to achieve it. it can be hard work but worth it in my estimation.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 127 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.156.78 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:09 pm:        Fatheroffaking and trainedobserver, Let's keep it about Ted, okay -- if you want to talk salvation, belief, etc, please start another topic. Thanks!   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2652 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:26 pm:        Thanks Bachman-glad you said it! I am not surprised inkorrect feels as he does. I understand his compassion but I still believe people have to be held accountable..I have been from time to time in my life..it hurts..but it is part of growth. This man should not be jumping into any kind of ministry-period.. inkorrect you can't believe such a short stint in therapy could bring forth such quick results for this man? (Message edited by rachelengland on February 08, 2007)   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2310 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.59 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:52 pm:        "i see salvation as being saved from ouselves. it's purpose is our happiness. my experience has been that any religion, if interpreted as mythology can bring these results. " Pardon me but that seems •••-backwards. Life is all about exploring and accepting ourselves as who and what we 'really' are. Being saved from ourselves? Isn't that just more 'mommy take care of me" stuff? It is up to us as individuals. One major problem with religion is the negative self-image it wants to lay on everyone so they can sell you their solution. It's a lie. You aren't broke damnit, you're a human being, that's how we roll. (ah-hem) Ted Haggard is now saying he is 100% hetrosexual and that he never was homosexual. The man is in a fantasy land. A homosexual is someone sexually attracted to the same sex. Ted would not have been performing oral sex on a man for three years if he didn't really like it. Ted Haggard is a delusional liar and hypocrite. Ted Haggard is homosexual, when he learns to accept that and actually deal with it instead of lying and pretending that he isn't attracted to male genitalia, he might get somewhere in straighting out his life. He is so screwed up because he wants to live the lie that he is a spanking clean holy man and he isn't one. "religion, if interpreted as mythology" Mythology is yesterdays religion, and todays religion is tomorrows mythology. Holy script is all myth and psycho-drama were people try to make sense of things via the supernatural. The Enlightenment has shown us that secular science is superior to the revealed knowledge of prophets and sooth-sayers. Unfortunately, although this happened hundreds of years ago, not everyone is up to speed with it. (Message edited by trainedobserver on February 08, 2007)   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2653 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:32 pm:        Do you only feel this strongly TO about those who hold religious viewpoints or do have the same rules for those on your side of the bank that fail? Another point here many who have a secret such as Haggart had with his homosexuality often persecute other in order to hide what may be considered among their fellow peers as a sin...   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2312 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.1 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 2:26 pm:        "Do you only feel this strongly TO about those who hold religious viewpoints or do have the same rules for those on your side of the bank that fail? What do you think? "Another point here many who have a secret such as Haggart had with his homosexuality often persecute other in order to hide what may be considered among their fellow peers as a sin..." Haggard fits the Antisocial Personality Disorder pattern. He is mentally ill and needs real help not witchdoctor mumbo-jumbo and a new Bible. He is a user and I think he'll be a repeat offender like Swaggart. You don't shake a life-time of behavior in a couple of weeks, maybe never. Blurb: Antisocial Personality Disorder is chronic, beginning in adolescence and continuing throughout adulthood. There are ten general symptoms: not learning from experience no sense of responsibility inability to form meaningful relationships inability to control impulses lack of moral sense chronically antisocial behavior no change in behavior after punishment emotional immaturity lack of guilt self-centeredness   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 568 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.134.125 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 3:15 pm:        This demonstrates what a liar, con-man, scumbag Haggard really is. He claimed that Jones was the only male he ever had sex with -- lie. What about the drugs? What, are we just supposed to forget about that? ANd yes all people are to be held to the same standards whether they are religious or not. Shows how this society holds a double standard. Commit fraud and you go to jail. Commit fraud in the name of squeezuz or fleezuz or whatever and you get rich, don't have to pay taxes, and have a bunch of mindless sheep making excuses for you. I would love to see the day when these jeezuz-sputing scum are held to the same level of responsibility for their behavior as anyone else. Haggard belongs in prison along with Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and all the rest of those criminal scumbags -- some of whom (such as Oral Roberts and Benny Hinn) are guilty of murder.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2655 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 3:41 pm:        Frankencrist said " some of whom (such as Oral Roberts and Benny Hinn) are guilty of murder". Frankencrist that means more to me than you will ever know!!!! These are dangerous men...   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.143.141 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:00 pm:        I agree that Ted Haggard is gay. A single straight man seeks sex with women. A married straight man who wants to have an affair has sex with a woman. A married man who has sex with another man is gay. He can call himself "bisexual" but ONLY if he is having relationships outside of his marriage with men AND women. Because for three years Ted only had sex with a man outside of his marriage, he would be considered gay. There are at least two (2) other men that said they had sex with him but have not come forward for fear of losing their jobs, so that can only be classified as "heresay." And I don't think the drug charge was "proved" because he would have been arrested and he wasn't. Although I believe he did use drugs, again, I'd consider it heresay. The ONLY reason Haggard "came out" (so to speak!) is because he was exposed. Once exposed, he first lied about, then admitted "some" of what went on, but when finally confronted by his board, he was asked to resign. He said he was sorry, etc. and I thought,"Fine. Now go away for a year, we don't need to hear from you." And while I am no fan of James Dobson, I do like Jack Hayford and thought Ted would be in good hands. But to go through 3 weeks of therapy and then have people announce he is "100% straight" is tragic for Ted, his wife, his children, and anyone who believes sexual orientation can be "changed." I agree, TO, that Ted needs to DEAL WITH IT! I believe he said he has struggled with same-sex attraction since he was very young, so we're talking 40+ years -- and we're to believe in 3 weeks, it's all taken care of? Let's pretend he IS telling the truth. Fine. But at this point, it's a private matter and he should live his "new life" as a 100% straight man first before God, his wife and children. I think it's none of our business and it makes him, his "overseers" and Christianity look like some weird mind-warp alien society where minds can be changed overnight. Because Jesus NEVER mentions homosexuality, we have no scripture to point to and say, "See! Jesus touched this gay man and he turned straight!" Paul is even more vague..."...and some were such as you." In other words, the gay men of the time were opening gay, decided to follow Christ and stopped their same-sex activity. Back then, it was loosely "accepted" for older men to engage in sex with younger men. It was all based on what the men DID, so when they stopped having sex with other men, they were no longer considered homosexual. They didn't get married (that we know of) they just ceased having sex with other men. They may have wanted to, but they chose instead to follow what Jesus said -- in one respect, having sex ONLY in a marriage relationship. Again, Jesus never mentions homosexual relationships -- makes me wonder why the church today is so CONSUMED with homosexuals and abortion, another topic Jesus never mentioned and of course, abortions happened back then. How wonderful if the church was known for being outspoken against poverty and injustice like Jesus said! Imagine: "Ugh! Those CHRISTIANS! All they talk about is loving God, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and doing unto others like you'd want them to do to you!" If only...!   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2656 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:04 pm:        WOW...I enjoyed that whole posting! "How wonderful if the church was known for being outspoken against poverty and injustice like Jesus said! Imagine: "Ugh! Those CHRISTIANS! All they talk about is loving God, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and doing unto others like you'd want them to do to you!" Awesomely put Bachman!   gsrh Intermediate Member Username: gsrh Post Number: 248 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.175.6.17 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 6:22 pm:        I have to agree with Bachman this time too.   hope_faith_and_love Intermediate Member Username: hope_faith_and_love Post Number: 472 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.129.39.65 Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 8:30 pm:        A few years back a successful actress was caught shop lifting. All the media was mocking her. And it seemed like all her contemporaries and "fans" were also mocking her and talking about her. But in the midst of this, another actress, one who was experiencing a height of her movie career had compassion on what this woman was going through and sent her a note of support. In the midst of all the other voices to have this one person reach out to her must have felt like a life line to her. I ask you all here and now, whose behavior is more like Jesus Christ to one who has fallen??? Yours or the actress? I do not know if either actress is a Christian.... If neither are, do you think your behavior here would make them want to be one? Or could any of you ever accept them after what they have done? Compassion to others is a huge no no for Christians on factnet, unless it is for someone who is trying to stop a Christian leader... bravo to you all for consistantly not having a clue about how unChrist like you all are in everything you do. As someone who has had to live through scandals in my life caused by others, it always was the "church folks" who seemed to enjoy the gossip the most. It was the "church folks" who betrayed me. People I thought were my friends only wanted to get close to me to see what they could find out. This by they way is "my worst church experience"! Someone recently told me that I wasn't Jesus, I didn't know how many tears they had cried because they didn't like what I said to them. But the fact is that person didn't know that while all these church folks were gossiping and betraying me, I cried alone, but Jesus Christ was with me. And because I couldn't go to church, quite frankly, because some churches didn't want me to come, there was Christian television that I could watch and Christian radio I could listen to and understand that Jesus Christ was with me as the Holy Spirit got to me where I was... I know that what I experienced by these church folk was not Jesus Christ. It was through the scandals and the betrayals of "church folk" that made me know Jesus Christ in a way most of the church folk will never know. Sexual sins are against our own bodies, but what comes out of your mouth that makes you unclean. So in God's eyes you are perhaps worse off than the man you have come together to talk about. (Message edited by hope_faith_and_love on February 08, 2007)   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 574 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.134.145 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 12:41 am:        Barf.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 802 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.133.241 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 1:40 am:        Yes Ted, who was a national leader has suffered severe humiliation and disgrace. This ought to change his life. Yes, he will come out as a much stronger person. He will never be the same again. All of you who are bashing him,Will you be all happy, if he disappeared from the face of the earth OR something happened to his life?   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 575 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.134.145 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 3:30 am:        No I would be happy if Ted Haggard told the truth for the first time in his life. If he just said -- "hey, I'm gay and I don't give a rat's ••• what the bible says". If Haggard would just stop lying for once -- then all would be forgiven.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.239.149 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 8:11 am:        Hope, Faith, Love===this is not about you. It's about Ted. If you want to post your worst church experience, please post under that subject heading. Frankenchrist amen to your "barf!" (If it was in response to HFL "all about ME" post. Inkorrekt, Ted did not "suffer severe humilation and disgrace." HE BROUGHT IT ON HIMSELF. There is a HUGE difference which, by your posts, you don't seem to understand. Few of us are bashing him -- we are "bashing" his "3-weeks later, I am cured" and his complete disregard for the privacy owed his family and what appears to be his deluded state. (I have yet to hear his wife come out and say, "Yes, Ted is 100% straight now!") I agree with frankenchrist (sorta!) that Ted should either admit he's gay and start from that point of "truth" OR admit he needs a LOT of help to repair his marriage--if his wife still wants him -- and that he wants to follow what the bible says (be gay but don't act out on it.) Above all, he should tell the TRUTH or go away. (Actually, tell the truth AND go away!) Personally, I hope he just goes away. In the same way the USA had the world's "good will" after the 9/11 attacks and then wrecked that, I think Ted had SOME good will after he was caught, lied, then admitted what he had done, asked forgiveness and left his church. But he has lost most all that good will with this latest revelation that he is now straight. Also, to be making future plans -- getting an on-line (?) degree in psychology, moving to a new state, etc just a couple months after such a huge, life-changing experience I find odd too. If I were in his situation, I would want to go away, focus on the truth of who/what I was with God, my wife, and kids. I certainly wouldn't be thinking of my new "career move." But that's just me. I guess because he is a "public figure" he feels the need to keep his private life pubic.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2318 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.11 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 9:56 am:        I'd be happy if Ted would admit to being gay and a drug user and ask the forgiveness of his church and the gay community for his psychotic hypocritical behavior and put himself in a real hospital somewhere. Instead he continues to lie and cover up his duplicity, insulting the intelligence of his fellow Christians with his obvious deceit. A degree in psychology? Who would want this poor sick man mucking around with your head or dealing with your children in any way whatsoever? He is has proven himself extremely untrustworthy.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2320 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.11 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:29 am:        I'd be happy if Ted would admit to being gay and a drug user and ask the forgiveness of his church and the gay community for his psychotic hypocritical behavior and put himself in a real hospital somewhere. Instead he continues to lie and cover up his duplicity, insulting the intelligence of his fellow Christians with his obvious deceit. A degree in psychology? Who would want this poor sick man mucking around with your head or dealing with your children in any way whatsoever? He is has proven himself extremely untrustworthy.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2661 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:32 am:        "But he has lost most all that good will with this latest revelation that he is now straight". Yes I think the "gay" part bothered him more than the real sin...drugs and lying-it's a stigma, christians are easily more understanding of drugs than they are homosexuality...go figure   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2664 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:58 am:        There is no need for you to be so pious and double post TO..everyone understands what your saying without you having to post it twice! Haggart is a liar pure and simple BUT he isn't the only one is he....he just got caught. Mucking around and dealing with children..who says he hasn't already done that (Message edited by rachelengland on February 09, 2007)   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2324 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.13 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 11:13 am:        "post it twice!" That was an oops there.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2666 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 11:17 am:        Well from the rise you gave me on the other thread it can be forgiven...   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.148.14 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 11:23 am:        Also, inkorrect, you posted that "Yes Ted, who was a national leader has suffered severe humiliation and disgrace." Actually, it's his WIFE who has suffered the humiliation and disgrace! Ted just got "caught." Big difference.   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 578 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.152.46 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 4:27 pm:        Haggard claimed that "Jesus put him back together" I wonder why Jesus never bothered to prevent Ted from engaging in the offensive behavior in the first place. Was he busy with other things? Then after Ted got caught then Jesus all of a sudden decides to "repair" Ted. Obviously you can't believe a singe word that scumbag says. Ted Haggard is, and always was, a liar and a fraud.   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2668 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 4:30 pm:        People like to use Jesus for and at their convenience FC....You should know that!   cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 731 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 4:42 pm:        Yes, if he truly repented he was forgiven and that slate is wiped clean. BUT... that doesn't mean that all is forgotten, swept under the rug and everything goes back as it was. He needs serious, long-term counselling both individually and with his wife. To think this is all OK now is really a joke and major denial. And T O, tho I don't usually agree with you I want to especially thank you for posting the info about the antisocial personality. It fits leaders who do this like a glove. Also usually the sociopathic personality (maybe a more serious form, sorry, don't know enough psych to be sure). I had a former pastor who only admitted to adultery after he was found out (she blabbed) and after he let the congregation know, he took some temporary Nazarene vow, left the area by himself for 3 MONTHS (God only knows what went on) and came back all OK. HUH? 3 months. No counselling, even tho other pastors offered it to him. He went on to take numerous other "spiritual wives" until he eventually died last year. Hope the same thing doesn't happen to Ted (except he wouldn't be looking for wives, now, would he) but this could be his wake-up call if he'd let it.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 803 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.59.45.188 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:35 pm:        Everyone who is bashing Ted want to believe that Homosexuality is genetic. On the otherhand,Science does not have any evidence whatsoever. Everything that is claimed so far is nothing but junk Science. Most of the researchers on AIDS and homosexuality are homosexuals themselves. They are Foxes guarding the chicken house.Homosexuals are never born this way, but, they chose homosexual life style. Homosexuality is still a psychosexual disorder characterized by compulsive and addictive behaviour. Ted who is a heterosexual became obsessed with homosexual passions and urges.   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 579 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.152.46 Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 11:48 pm:        Actually they found a cure for homosexuality -- stem cells.   franklin Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 4923 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.53.135.172 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:13 am:        Actually the ten general symptoms of Antisocial Personality Disorder adequately describe the factnet atheists here. not learning from experience no sense of responsibility inability to form meaningful relationships inability to control impulses lack of moral sense chronically antisocial behavior no change in behavior after punishment emotional immaturity lack of guilt self-centeredness   yaqakallah Intermediate Member Username: yaqakallah Post Number: 204 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.110.28.40 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 2:07 am:        Well, this whole homo thing really confuses me. First, I doubt a grown man or woman becomes a homosexual. Those feelings/needs begin in pubescence, as do normal sexual thoughts, desires etc.(for the opposite sex). Second, I have witnessed in my small neighborhood growing up there were 2 boys who were oviously emfament in the way they talked, walked, dressed, behaved. And, yes, they both grew up to become homosexual males. Neither of their parents or siblings exhibited these traits, lest not in public. So, I question if homosexuality is genetic, and if so, how does that fit into the word of God. Remember Sodom and G.....Everyone but save Lot and his family were spared from God's wrath....ie, even the kids and infants were not spared. This may mean genetics is involved. I don't know. This I do understand. Ted knew he was a homosexual. Having a wife and kids has nothing to do with this. They are usually used as window dressing for the homo and for a preacher, a much needed tool to appear normal. Ted only came clean when he was caught. Proof he was not sincere and knew he was not right with God. Looks like he was full of pride and in the 'biz' for fame and fortune. Am I condemning Ted? Nope, the word of God does. His salvation is between he and God. We can only hope he gets right with God and use his (hopefully) past lifestyle to minister to others who feel the ropes of homosexuality around their neck and need council to help them cease. God can do anything, yet I feel we who ask favors of him must be sincere. Only God See's our true selves and only he can judge the heart. However, people like Ted muddy the water of respect for Christian ministers. I for one would not listen to a word he said unless he changed his ministry to counseling other homosexuals to fight this urge and trust in Christ to deliver them. Swaggart is the perfect example of a man who got caught, cried his way out, got caught again and cried his way out again. Kinda like Clinton who lied, was to be impeached, yet the majority of American citizens re-elected him. The dumbing down of American citizens pleases Satan and those who serve him. If you can't see this, then feel blessed. Not knowing what is going on(Note:CNN does not tell you the truth!!!) will help you sleep better at night. The only truth that sets you free is the truth of the Holy Bible....nothing else matters, meaning there is nothing you or anyone can do to stop what is happening or is yet to come.   cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 733 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:30 am:        Everyone who is bashing Ted want to believe that Homosexuality is genetic. This is such a false, blanket statement. Where do you get this stuff? Discussing the sinner, sin and the response is not "bashing", it's discussing FACTS. Since you feel I'm "bashing" poor Ted, when did I ever say that homosexuality is genetic? When if fact did I address this anywhere? If I (or others_ )haven't then you post in error. Stop using broad, dramatic generalizations and be specific.   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 580 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.225.4.68 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:40 am:        I could give a rat's ••• what Haggard's sexual orientaion is or whether or not it's genetic. I bash Haggard because he is a liar and a fraud and a low-life scumbag who deserves to be bashed. He deserves it. He has been discredited because he deserves to be -- he's a liar. Not that he's any different than any other cult leader -- they're all liars.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.238.241 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 9:21 am:        inkorrekt, nobody knows the "cause" of homosexuality. If we knew, it would be front page news as I'm sure you'll agree. Same with a successful "treatment" -- that, too, would be front page news. Personally, I don't believe anyone "chooses" to be gay -- if you are straight, the idea of you choosing to have sex with someone of the same gender simply makes no sense. Why would you? And you'd have no desire or ability to perform. Plus, the social stigma--why "choose" to be part of such a hated minority? Science -- and James Dobson and Ted! -- tend to agree that whatever the cause, it happens very, very young, and is usually "set" before the age of 3. Perhaps before birth, perhaps how you're raised, no clear evidence. Studies with twins have shown a higher incidence among twins, which leads many to believe it's genetic. But again, it's not conclusive. I agree with yaqakallah, that most adults do not become homosexual. Again, even Ted admits he struggled as a child. I believe that since we have a fallen nature, same sex attraction--like mental and physical disorders from birth -- are part of the "fall." I don't mean that to come across as gay bashing at all, but to make "sense" of what the Word of God says, if it says that something is "wrong" and people are possibly born that way, well, we know God won't go against His word so perhaps it's part of the Fall? During the summer many years ago I worked at a motel and members from the Metropolitain Church held a meeting nearby. This is the national "gay church." This was back in the early 80s andbecause they used a room in the hotel, I stopped by on the way home. They were singing, "I'm my Beloved and He is mine, His banner over me is love." (Anyone remember that?!) But they changed the words: "I"m my Beloved and He knows I'm gay, His banner over me is love." I thought it was sad that they had to change the words to fit their situation, sort of "twist God's arm" to accept them. So over the years as I've met gay people they've always been shocked that I am a Christian because I don't seem to "hate them." I like to say to them what Andrew Wommack coined, "God's not mad at you -- He loves you and wants to have a relationship with you!" That always blows them away--I leave it to the Holy Spirit to change them should they choose Jesus. So far, the gay people I know who become Christian say they still are attracted to the same sex but they no longer seek out sex and no longer go to the places that would tempt them. They have never said "I'm straight now" and have asked me would I ever want to have sex with a man, which simply doesn't compute. They said that's how it is for them. With Ted, I wasn't addressing WHY or HOW he was gay (since I started this subject) I was angry that he claimed to be "straight" after 3 weeks of therapy and seems to have "slipped the noose" of his overseers and was planning to move away, make new plans, etc. If it was only that easy to change, right? I mean, sexual orientation is pretty ingrained and how many of us want to lose weight, change or adopt new habits, etc -- and Ted can change his sexual orientation in THREE WEEKS! Give me suma dat!   cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 735 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 10:11 am:        amen, bachman Very well said. CM   extrabod New member Username: extrabod Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 5:51 pm:        Couldn't help myself from laughing when I read about Ted's magical high speed "de-gay-ification" in the newspaper today. The sad thing is there are so many fools out there that are going to actually believe this   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 805 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.33.133.241 Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:07 am:        In the order of things, man is made for woman and woman for man. Why do girls bcome lesbians? Fathers are responsible for this. Daddy's girls have a tendency to become lesbians. Why do boys become homosexuals? When mothers become aggressive, they take over the reins of th family. Husband becomes submissive. The woman does not allow the boy to grow and mature as a masculine man, She controls him so much that instead of developing masculine characteristics, he becomes submissive. He tends to acquire feminine characteristics. These are the environmental causes for homosexuality. Our school system also programs teen agers to make them believe that they are homosexuals even though they are heterosexuals. There is no GAY GENE. When we teach 6 year old kids "SALLY HAS 2 MOMS", WHAT DO THEY BECOME?   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.243.151 Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 6:04 am:        Inkorrekt, what you wrote is true SOMETIMES, but in order to be scientific FACT, it needs to be true EVERY SINGLE TIME. In other words, every Daddy girl would become a lesbian, and every male child raised by an aggressive female/submissive father would become gay. Which doesn't happen. And you look at the divore rate in this country, more than 50%, so a LOT of boys are being raised by a LOT of single Moms (and some must be "aggressive!") but there are NOT a lot of gay men being "created." And let me know which school systems "program teen agers to make them believe that they are homosexuals even though they are heterosexuals?" I think you sort of made that up...! The homosexual population is very, very small. And there is ZERO evidence that children raised by gay parents become gay themselves. So logically speaking, if the 30 year old "gay agenda" is to turn the nation gay, then there would be more and more and more gay people which their isn't. Survey after survey comes out and remains the same: only one to 2% of the US population is gay, not 10% as quoted. The gay community is certainly more VOCAL than they were 30-40 years ago, but that doesn't mean there are more of them. I don't think there is a reason to teach sex or sexual orientation to pre-school or grade school children. The average age that people lose their virginity in the US is 15-16 -- down from the age of 17. So clearly, there needs to be some teaching about sexual responsibility BEFORE high school. And in this day and age, I think kids need to be taught to "respect" homosexuals and not beat them up, call them names, etc -- same with treating blacks, Hispanics, with respect, etc. The highest rate of suicide is amongst gay teenagers so reaching out to them with love and mercy seems key, don't you think? It's a tough enough time (teenage years) and to add to it sexual orientation confusion/shame from the church/society must be a nightmare. If the church didn't have homosexuality and abortion to preach against, I wonder what they would talk about?   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2339 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.3 Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 8:53 am:        If there is some "gay agenda" then I can't understand why ragingly gay men like Haggard, gay-pedophiles like the countless Catholic Priests, and the other gay ministers who are getting caught trolling for gay prostitutes are all part of the established system and campaign against the "gay agenda" itself.   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 591 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.14 Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:29 pm:        Haggard and them exist only to prove PT Barnum right. There really is nothing that is too stupid for people to believe if you sell it in the right way.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 806 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.100.181.248 Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 1:22 am:        "Ugh! Those CHRISTIANS! All they talk about is loving God, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and doing unto others like you'd want them to do to you!" Who are the people who are caring for the AIDS victims? Can anyone name anybody? No. It is only those bigoted homophobic CHRISTIANS!!!!! Is it not strange? Yes everyone who is bashing Ted will never understand this. Christians hate the sin of Homosexuality. But, they love the sinner(homosexual). A non Christian will have difficulty understanding this. Every Christian has struggles with Sin. There is no exception. If anyone will deny this, then he / she is a hypocrite. Ted is not a homosexual.He was too weak to resist the temptation of homosexual activity.Not everyone can say "NO" to sin. Some say NO. Others fail and say YES. There is human weakness. Ted is like anyone else. At those times when he failed, he did not have the power to say NO.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 135 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.242.203 Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 6:22 am:        Inkorrekt, when AIDS was first being diagnosed in the 1980s, Regan/the govt/Christians did pretty much nothing to care for the people (they are not "victims" by the way)--everyone was afraid they would get infected. So the gay community "cared for their own" much to the church's disgrace. I live in NYC so I know of DOZENS of groups that cared and care for AIDS/HIV groups, groups that are NOT part of the church. Here are three: God's Love We Deliver Body Positive Broadway Cares Simply check the Internet -- or your local Yellow Pages -- and you will find dozens of groups. Of course, now the church is doing much to help people with HIV/AIDS. Not sure what you mean by "Ted was weak, he was unable to resist the temptation of homosexual activity." Ted certainly had the power to "say NO." Instead, he CHOSE to dial rentaboy. It wasn't like rentaboy called him and called him and called him and Ted finally broke down and "yielded." So yes, Christian/the church have and do care for people with HIV/AIDS. But they were not first on the scene, nor were they the only ones. If Christians truly "hate the sin/love the sinner" then how come the "sinners" (gay people) never feel the love? They feel the hate and rejection, but they never feel the love. Remember Jesus had MULTITUDES following Him and he ate meals with them and they were known to be the "big sinners" of the day -- and they were STLLL SINNING while they hung out with Jesus. In other words, they were attracted to Him and He did NOT reject them. He loved them and that changed their life. That's what I meant about the church loving God, etc. People would be ATTRACTED to us by our love, not REPELLED by our hatred. And that "love the sinner/hate the sin" isn't even a scriptural statement, let along something that makes sense. Jesus didn't draw the line--He said, "Let whomsoever will COME." If Ted/other hidden gay men and women felt the love of the church toward their sin and secrets, they would be able to come forward and find healing and restoration. Ted was, sadly, not in that environment--nor did he "preach" it--so he felt people hated his sin AND him.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 709 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:53 am:        Every Christian has struggles with Sin. There is no exception. If anyone will deny this, then he / she is a hypocrite. Ted is not a homosexual.He was too weak to resist the temptation of homosexual activity.Not everyone can say "NO" to sin. Some say NO. Others fail and say YES. There is human weakness. Ted is like anyone else. At those times when he failed, he did not have the power to say NO. Everyone is tempted. Not everyone gives into the temptation. Those who continue to live sinful lives after being saved do so for one reason ... they do not have the proper fear of God. They ignore the warnings God has given us in scripture and do things even those who are unsaved know are wrong. If we are too weak to resist .. then God must be unjust to expect anything else from us. Is God unjust? Hebrews 10:26-30 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people. For we know the one who said, "I will take vengeance. I will repay those who deserve it." He also said, "The Lord will judge his own people."   frankenchrist Advanced Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 594 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.14 Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:58 am:        I just saw a shocking documentary on the problems with methamphetamine. That stuff is absolutely devastating to its victims. It made me think about how the repugnant pig Haggard is supporting that market which is killing kids. Haggard is a criminal scumbag. Haggard ahould be bashed at every opportunity -- if there is such a thing as evil it is embodied in people like Ted Haggard. Because we live in something that is about an inch from being a xtian theocracy thanks to G. W. Pigturd and the administration of brain-damaged, inbred, glue-sniffing, rs for jesus, Criminal pigs like Haggard, Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Tom Delay, etc. get rich and don't have to pay taxes while others go to prison for lesser crimes. I do not believe that xtians should receive special rights. (Message edited by admin on February 19, 2007)   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 136 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.251.76 Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:18 pm:        Marta, good point (the fear of God) and I'd also add the LOVE of God -- Jesus said, "If you love Me, you'd keep my commandments." If the fear of God doesn't compel us to choose His way, maybe our love of God -- and the Love He's shown us--would cause us to repent? Maybe? Frankenchrist, I under stand your point(s) but would appreciate you respecting my beliefs. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, that He IS God, so your profanity (using His name) if offensive to me. Thanks, in advance, for your understanding and respect. Bachman   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 710 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 2:20 pm:        ...and I'd also add the LOVE of God You're right, of course, it's both. We choose to do what is right because we love God and want to do what is pleasing to Him. But we also choose not to do evil because we fear God, knowing that God is righteous and that He will judge all who continue to live sinful lives. The key word here is "choose" ... Romans 6:18-23 Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness. I speak this way, using the illustration of slaves and masters, because it is easy to understand. Before, you let yourselves be slaves of impurity and lawlessness. Now you must choose to be slaves of righteousness so that you will become holy. In those days, when you were slaves of sin, you weren't concerned with doing what was right. And what was the result? It was not good, since now you are ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 809 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 132.194.83.60 Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 4:11 pm:        MARTA, BACHMAN: You are both right on certain issues. Yes, the Church is preaching against homosexual behaviour. Yes, it must without compromising. But the church still is failing the homosexual community in not extending the arm of compassion. Church has to go a long way. The responsibility also lies in part with the homosexual radical activits who have created a wall. How? Christians are coninuously bashed as bigits, homophobics and hateful. The fact is the homosexuals hate themselves and they project this on the christians.Yes, the church as well as the homosexual community both need radical transformation.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 137 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.157.213 Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 6:47 pm:        Wow, inkorrekt -- we sort of finally agree! But I believe the church/Christians "threw the first stone" because I can't remember a time when we have EVER shown love or compassion to the gay community. Even when AIDS started in the early 80s, the "first thing" we said was, "See! God sent this plague on you! And keep away from us because we don't want to get it ourselves!" Fortunately, things have changed since then (in some respects) but I think as long as we exalt the sins of homosexuality and abortion ABOVE envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossip, slander, insolence, haughtiness, and boastfulness, we are not preaching (or living) the true gospel. Because God looks at all sin the same (rebellion against Him; more so since He has provided a way out through Jesus), it's all the same in His eyes. And because we all gossip (not us at FACTnet--especially NOT the people talking about Carman!) it would be interesting to see the "church" come out really hard against gossip for say, six months. You know, open protests, witch hunts against people who gossip, pointed teaching from the pulpit, all the TV and radio preachers start talking about and raising funds to help free people from gossip, writing books about it, create special "ex-gossip" ministries, split churches over those who "choose" to gossip verses those who feel they were "born to gossip" and... Never mind. I think it would be another mess...!   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 824 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.100.181.248 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 1:13 am:        RIGHT ON brother. I was extremely hateful of the homosexual behaviour. One day, I was confronted by a dear servant of God. She challenged me why is it that I would tolerate fornication and adultery (which are sexual sins) and not the homosexual behaviour which is also a sexual sin.Today, my position is we are all sinners. We may not have committed the homosexual sin. But, we commit other sins everyday. If so, who are we to Judge Ted or someone else? We are the same sinners just as Ted. He needs our sympathy and not condemnation. I was angry and upset with what Ted did. On the same week, my minister never said a word.But he asked all the congregation to pray for "Brother" Ted. This act said lot more than thousand words. I was humbled by this action. My minister is a great man to forgive Ted.   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 782 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 10:33 pm:        The things that ministers preach the most about in an aggressive way; where it seems to be their anthem, are usually the issues in which they struggle. It usually takes a life storm to blow off the cover. Ted struggled with a sin that he knew was wrong. He chose to do what he did, and not seek help. He must suffer the outcome. I wish those who were politically liberal would take the same vengence in speech when speaking about certain political figures who have done the same. This is not a Chrsitian problem, rather a human problem.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 711 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:32 am:        Yes, it's a human problem ... but scripture tells us that it's not our job to judge those outside the church.... 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 784 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 5:49 pm:        I agree with you, Marta. My answer was aimed at another poster. I believe that we do need to judge those, according to the scriptures, who are in sin. I I also believe in mercy. However, one needs to show repentance before mery can be given, and by mercy I do not mean "hey, that's OK". Sometimes mercy is not what people expect.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 712 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:29 am:        Thanks bear. I agree.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 830 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.100.181.248 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:59 am:        Ted has been fired. Was it not done out of christian Love and reprimand which are Scriptural?   bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 786 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 5:38 pm:        Inkorrect, 1. My understanding was that he stepped down 2. If he was fired, then yes, it was scriptural? He admitted his drug and sex problem. No person should be aloud to stay in a pastorate after what has taken place. 3. I loved Ted for years, yet the only reason that this came out of him was due to the other party making it public. At first, Ted denied everything. 4. I belive with time that Ted can enter ministry again, but never at his former church, and never with the same level of authority. 5. I believe that this situation is God's mercy on his life. He should not be so quick to stop receiving counsel, for it will take time for him to heal from this. These issues are deep rooted, and involve character.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 346 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 5:49 pm:        Bear: I absolutely agree with you, pretty much, with what you said. Ted did step down --- after he was asked to. What is he going to do? Say no? Nah, he was humble about it. I completely agree that no one should be allowed to stay in a pastorate after a fall like this --- by falling into deep sin, you have broken the sacred trust of the pastorate, which takes a VERY LONG time to re-build. I agree that with time, Ted can re-enter ministry, but not at his former church, where the sacred trust was broken, and not with the same level of authority And yes, this WAS God's mercy, because if it continued, Ted could have ultimately been judged for what he did. There ARE deep issues here, and much involves character.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2402 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.20 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 6:06 pm:        bear, Your point 3 above is perhaps the most important thing to consider about Ted Haggart. He would still be snorting meth, having gay romps, and condemning drug use and homosexual from the pulpit. This isn't a small point. He cannot be trusted. Your point 4 above ignores the fact that people like Ted don't really change their ways as much as they simply change their camouflage. Ted is a unprosecuted criminal. Homosexuality doesn't get "prayed" away. Ted is a homosexual and will always be a homosexual. He has to face that fact. Tell me folks ... how many of you "choose" what sexually attracts you? You don't, it's a unconscious act driven by unconscious factors on a unconscious level. Case in point. I have seen men in drag who before I realized it was a man looked really attractive to me. After I learned the person was a male I was no longer attracted to them. Even though my unconscious "find a mate" program that runs through everyone's head was still telling me that the appearance of the cross-dresser was attractive, I knew better. Dude looks like a lady. I think this has happened at one point in time to everyone. Mistaken sexual identity and instinctual reaction equals embarrassment. Ted is gay it has nothing to do with any choice he would be able to make other than the choice to continue to live a lie or not. It would be irresponsible for Ted to be allowed in any position of authority in a ministry.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 348 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 9:25 pm:        Trainedobserver: That is a rather judgmental approach. You said, "People like Ted don't really change their ways as much as they simply change their camouflauge." C'mon --- do you NOT believe in the power of God to change and transform people's lives??? When you say, "Ted is a homosexual and will always be a homosexual," you deny the power of God to change Ted's life. Are you a Christian? Do you believe in the power of God? Have you experienced it for yourself??? I completely disagree with your assertion that people do NOT choose their sexuality. The Bible teaches that homosexuality, like ANY SIN, is a matter of choice.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.149.89 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:12 pm:        jbkrems, the bible doesn't "teach that homosexuality, like any sin, is a matter of choice." Nowhere will you find that in the bible, old testament or new testament. As I posted earlier in this heading, the bible doesn't say very much about this topic at all. Jesus NEVER mentions it -- and you can be certain there were gay men and women back then. There are only (I think) six scriptures dealing with the subject, and a couple of them are very difficult to translate -- does "effeminate" mean gay,etc. I agree that Ted is/was gay and I think that people can certainly be "born gay" in the same way that people are born physically deformed or mentally challenged, etc. We live in a fallen world and so people are not "born" (physically or mentally) as God desires. Scriptures do not specifically deal with sexual orientation but rather with sexual behavior. If we have a gay orientation, we're told to "put it aside" as in stop the physical aspect of it. In NT times, it was "accepted" for men to engage in homosexual relationships, usually with an older man being the authority over a younger man. That's what the NT was saying -- "and such were some of you. But now you need to stop it and be in Christ." If we look at homosexual behavior as sin--which I agree it is--we also need to look at it in the context that the bible does. In biblical times, everyone was considered to be heterosexual, so again, it was this "abnormal" action that was to stop. The Bible also condemned several behaviors that are generally allowed by today’s standards, including intercourse during menstruation, marriage with non-Jews, and birth control. Jesus “broke the mold” by reaching out to people who were considered to be “untouchable, unclean and unacceptable in society.” Although there are many "ex-gay" ministries, there are really very few (if any) cases of gay men or women becoming 100% "straight." This takes NOTHING away from God's power to change people. In most cases, people who claim to be formerly gay admit that they are still attracted to the same sex, but they CHOOSE to remain sexually pure. I'm certain people ARE delivered--but it's rare and I've never heard of it happening in 3 weeks! Plus, if people were REALLY being changed, then you know it would be front page news, etc. But when you look closer, you find that we're all humans just trying to get along in life--there are no easy answers. Which is why I posted my shock at what Ted said and what his overseers stated; it doesn't ring true. And I also believe it's a private matter for he and God, he and his wife and family. We (the world) don't need to hear this nonsense--his WIFE can tell us in 2 years on Barbara Walters how things are...!   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 142 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.149.89 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:23 pm:        (This pretty much says it all -- Alan Chambers heads up the Christian "ex-gay" group Exodus and CNN's Anderson Cooper asked him what he thought of Ted's 3-week transformation ----- Transcript of Alan Chambers on CNN Discussing Haggard’s “Transformation” ------ COOPER: Alan, you believe it is possible to stop being gay. Ted Haggard, though, says that he — this is something he wrestled with his entire life. Does it make sense to you that he was able to stop this allegedly in three weeks of counseling? ALAN CHAMBERS, PRESIDENT, EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: Well, the truth is that’s not my story, and it’s not the story of anyone I’ve ever met. I don’t know Ted Haggard’s journey over the last three weeks, but like Mark, I would say that it’s something that — it doesn’t seem like something that is really the case. COOPER: So you entered the counseling. Do you still have attraction to men? You’re just choosing not to act on it? CHAMBERS: My attraction greatly diminished over the course of many years. Sixteen years into it, my life isn’t even remotely the same as it once was, but I often say that I will never be as though I never was. And the truth is that I’m a human being. And for me to say that I could never be attracted to men again, or that I couldn’t be tempted would mean that I’m not human, and that’s just not the case. COOPER: You believe you cannot be Christian and gay? I mean, is the wonderful life you’re talking about a religious life which you feel was not accessible to you as an openly, proud, happy gay man? CHAMBERS: Not at all. I think that there are plenty of gay people out there who are Christians, as well, but for me, homosexuality wasn’t compatible with my faith, and my faith was much more important than that.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 350 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:37 pm:        Bachman: Sin is a choice. I believe the Bible teaches that. If we're a Christian, and a child of God, then we have the power to overcome sin and to choose to NOT sin. The Scriptures are very clear that homosexuality is a sin. It says so in Leviticus. It also says so in the NT, that those who are homosexual (or in some translations, effeminate) "will not inherit the Kingdom of God." The same is said of those who are murderers or robbers, or those that CHOOSE to live in other, blatant sin. I don't know whether Ted was gay or not. If Ted WAS gay, I do not believe he is that way anymore. Personally, I believe he has struggled with his sexual orientation over the years... but not necessarily that he is gay, period. I do NOT believe Ted was "born gay," though, because homosexuality was a sin. I do not believe it is right or fair for you to say that people are "born gay," and compare that to a mental disease or physical disorder. That is insulting to those who choose the homosexual lifestyle. In NT times, it was NEVER accepted for older men to engage in homosexual relations with younger men. Where in the world do you get that idea? The Bible NOWHERE teaches that was true. You're deceived if you believe such a lie. You've said its rare for people to be delivered. But you should not develop your beliefs and theology based on experience, or lack thereof. Instead, you need to base your beliefs and theology on the Word of God, and what the Bible says. I would like to give the benefit of the doubt to the overseers and the restoration committee at New Life Church. I'm familiar with many of these individuals, and they haven't said or done anything to prove otherwise. Lastly, a comment on your quote from Chambers. I'll tell you what does NOT ring true, IMHO; when he says "I think that there are plenty of gay people out there who are Christians, as well, but for me, homosexuality wasn't compatible with my faith..." --- THIS does NOT ring true... because it does not line up with the Scriptures --- you cannot be openly gay and Christian at the same time. If you KNOW the power of God in your life, that is sufficient to overcome the sin of homosexuality. Amen?   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 831 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.100.181.248 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 2:20 am:        JBKREMS: You are partly correct in assessing TED. Homosexuality is a psychosexual disorder characterized by compulsive and addictive behaviour. There is nothing like orientation. This is the twisted interpretation for sexual differentiation which occrs around puberty. No one is born as a homosexual. Boys who have been molested as children tend to become homosexuals.Ted had a serious struggle with this compulsion. As a weak human being, he fell for it. Dr.Spitzer was the President of the American Psychological Association in 1973 when he was under tremendous pressure to declassify homosexuality as a mental illness. He did and few years ago he admitted that homosexuals can change their lifestyles. This is happening everyday.It is the homosexual lobby that is enslaving hundreds and thousands of homosexuals who have been given the Myth that they were born that way.Any therapist who strongly believes in healing and transformation of lifestyles is ostracized and penalized by the homosexual lobby.Where is the Gay "Gene"   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 351 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 2:59 am:        Inkorrekt: I think for once I agree with everything you said, EXCEPT for the fact that I refuse to identify homosexuality as a mental disorder, mental disease, or mental illness.   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 924 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 11:00 am:        For Ted and everyont the answer and the truth is always in Gods word. "I APPEAL to you therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies [presenting all your members and faculties] as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship. 2Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] RENEWAL OF YOUR MIND [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you]". Romans 12:1-2 "Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God." Romans 6:11-13 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 7For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:16-25 Ted just forgot who he is and whose he is. He was seduced by the deceptive spirit of lust and its feelings. He stopped walking by faith and instead walked by feelings. He also did not confide in a trustworthy friend for their help. This is the pressure of many a Christian leader on the front lines. The ones on the front lines get most of the attacks, jabs, fire and flack. Renewing the mind daily, transforming ones wrong thinking becoming the image of what God has given us and made us in our born again Spirit. Identifying with what God says we are in our spirit to manifest through in our physical life and mind. "As a man THINKETH in his heart so is he.." Ted needs a checkup from the neck up and to rid himself of stinkin' thinkin'. Gods word transforms us if we continue in it. Notice below that Jesus told us IF WE CONTINUE IN HIS WORD not just learn it once or read it once but continue in it then we will stay free. Jesus said.. "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:31-36   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.83.243.214 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 12:43 pm:        I guess we will have to agree to disagree on some of these issues. The only reason I have continued the discussion is due to first hand experience (so to speak!) My sister was married to a man for more than 20 years. He was arrested for trying to engage with sex with a police office in a rest stop -- a "sting" operation. He had been doing this for MANY years and was caught -- and confessed. Joined Sexaholics Anon, (like AA). He and my sister are/were born again, spirit filled -- even leaders in a well known church and well-know marriage seminiar. (Yeah, go figure!) jbkrems, because I DO believe people can be/are born gay, I was putting it into the "fallen state" arena--physical and mental weaknesses, etc. I was not implying that anyone gay was "mentally" unstable. If it came across that way, I apologize. (E-mail doesn't always equal logic!) However, if someone were to CHOOSE to be gay, I WOULD question their mental stability because there is no evidence that people can change their orientation. (Again, the bible doesn't address orientation but we all know what we mean.) Also, homosexual behavior in NT "times" WAS accepted -- again, I didn't mean to imply the NT ever endorsed it because it never does. But the culture and society did. Again, that's why Paul says, "And such WERE some of you." It would be like if Paul talking against going to the movies which is accepted today. He would, "Before you were saved, you went to movies. Now that you belong to Christ, stop going to movies." He didn't make a "big deal" of it because it was clear what he was talking about. (Yes, I go to movies!) I agree with you that the Word is our authority, not experience. That's why I said it's RARE for people to be delivered -- and it is. Like I said, if it was happening ALL the time, people set free from homosexuality -- and in 3 weeks like with Ted -- then it would be FRONT PAGE NEWS. There was research years ago that gay men had a different "gland" than straight men and there was a HUGE response -- but it turned out that snipping the gland didn't work. It's like obesity--we all want a pill to lose weight. If changing your orientation was so easy (3 weeks) than the 3% of the population who are gay and WANT to change would be flooding the media with stories. But every single article you read or ministry website admits that it is a long, slow and challenging road. Like losing weight, quitting smoking, etc. Again, I have some sad personal experience with all of this--which doesn't negate your thoughts or opinions. There is STILL hope in Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Amen to treasheven -- we/they all need to CONTINUE in His word to be set free. And to walk free.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 354 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 4:08 pm:        Bachman: Let me be clear. I never thought you said that being gay is "mentally unstable." Where I STRONGLY disagree is that I will NOT equate homosexuality as a mental defect, a mental illness, or a mental disease. It is not some kind of deformity that one is born with. God does NOT create children with physical or mental deformities. If a child IS born physically disabled, or mentally retarded, then that is a work of the devil, which can be healed by the power of God. On the other hand, homosexuality is not something one is born with, and this is where we disagree. You're right that the term "orientation" is NOT in the Scriptures. I think a better term would be "preferences," which IS found in the Scriptures. And people CAN and DO change their "preferences," just like people change their religions. I know people who were Christian, and then denounce Jesus Christ and convert to Islam. The same spirit that is behind that kind of CHOICE also drives people to CHOOSE homosexuality as a "preference." Just because society and culture accept something as the "norm" doesn't make it right. I think we agree with what Paul said, but are just articulating it in different ways. The Bible teaches, however, that it should be COMMON for people to be delivered... from whatever their addiction or lifestyle is, be it homosexuality, drug addiction, or other issues. However, deliverance is ALSO a choice. Many people do NOT desire to be delivered from what holds them in bondage. They can only be set free when they desire the power of God in their life. Just because you read articles that say its a long, slow and challenging road to lose weight or stop smoking doesn't mean that's true. People DO need accountability once they are set free. People need to STAY free. That is the challenge. And even Ted admits that, as do his overseers, that he needs accountability and so forth to re-gain the ground that he has lost. And yes, amen to trsinheaven --- we all need to CONTINUE in the Word to be set free and to STAY free. Amen?   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2403 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.96.25.137 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 7:16 pm:        "do you NOT believe in the power of God to change and transform people's lives??? " No I do not. Ted Haggart is a good case against it. Did he not say that he has "struggled" with his problems his whole life. Don't you think if Ted's god were real going to do anything for the boy he would have done so already. It's that obvious?!! Judgemental!??? What was it when Ted condemned homosexual behavior and drug use on Sundays while having sex with a male hooker, high on meth, during the week? The man's fault does not lie in his 'homosexuality' or his drug use for that matter. The fault is Ted's deceitfulness and hypocrisy. He is a very sick man that needs a lot of help but he doesn't need anyone to cut him an inch of slack. He simply doesn't deserve it. (Message edited by trainedobserver on March 03, 2007)   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 833 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.100.181.248 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 1:58 am:        JBKREMS: If homosexualiry is not a mental disorder why is that they are addicted to this compilsoive behaviour? Till 1973 the American Psychological Association had this classified as a Psychosexual disorder characterized by Addiction and compulsion. On this year, because of heavy lobbying by the homosexual Psychologists this was declassified. (DSM 1973)This declassification does not change the behaviour. It is still a psychosexual disorder, You may chose not to believe. This will not change the reality.Where is the GAY Gene? Till the time, Gay gene is identified, (Probably never) no one is born as homosexual. Those Haggard Bashers will have to eat the CROW. AIDS is the only disease which is protected becaue of political correctness.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 355 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 2:15 am:        trainedobserver: Are you a Christian? I'd like you to answer that question before I continue any discussion with you here on this topic. Inkorrekt: There is a difference between an addiction and a mental disorder. Alcoholism and drug abuse are NOT mental disorders. I really don't know what you're trying to say here, Inkorrekt.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2404 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.96.25.137 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 11:02 am:        jbkrems, I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious. No I am a Secular Humanist. I'm an atheist. I do not believe in the supernatural. I was a Christian for over 30 years. I know something about what I'm talking about. And despite of the "they were not of us because they went out from us" doublethink*, you may have been taught, I was a Christian. The sad fact is Christian faith has no "miraculous" or "magic" life transforming power in it. It will not take a sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse. It is not unique from other religions in any regard, no matter what they taught us in Sunday School. Christian churches, pastors, and teachers frequently misrepresent other religions (many simply from not looking into it), or simply do not mention them in the case of Mithra worship, to make Christianities borrowing from religions that predated it unnoticeable and irrelevant. I'm not saying Ted Haggart shouldn't be pitied and helped. But he needs real help and not further pseudo-psychological religious indoctrination. I would like to see him charged with fraud and put in jail for it. Here's why ... as long as we tolerate these dishonest people using what their very victims consider "sacred" and "holy" to fill their own pockets and to garnish wealth, fame, and power. I cannot tell you the number wreaked and wretched souls I have run into who are easily taken advantage of by men like Ted Haggart, Peter Popoff, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Benne Hinn, and the list goes on. It seems like all of Christianity suffers from Stockholm Syndrome. The Catholics won't deal with 100s and 100s of years of child abuse by their clergy and the Evangelicals are happy to forgive the spiritual rapists who stand in front of them and take their money and then laugh about it later over a good buzz and some man-love. For Pete's sake when are you folk going to stop making excuses and force the leaders you take up for to clean up their acts? *Doublethink as defined in George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four: “The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth." (Message edited by trainedobserver on March 04, 2007)   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 713 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 1:29 pm:        For Pete's sake when are you folk going to stop making excuses and force the leaders you take up for to clean up their acts? I agree. Unlike you I am a Christian, but like you I am disgusted with Christian leaders who are caught living hypocritically sinful lives and then excused because no one wants to judge anyone ... or a least not anyone inside the church, since most of the times the church has no problem judging those outside the church. Too bad this is the exact opposite of what scripture teaches. Now scripture tells us that church leaders are to be an example to the rest of the church. What example has men like Haggard given us? It's OK to live hypocritically sinful lives .... because "we are all just sinners saved by grace" .... so, if you are tempted, it's OK to give in to that temptation .... just make sure you do a good job covering your tracks ... but if you are caught, say you are sorry and rely on the "judge not least you be judged" attitude of most church folk to allow you to be restored in no time. The church need to remove men like Haggard from leadership - permanently! Can he be forgiven and brought back into the church? Yes ... IF he has shown that he has truly repented and is living as God requires. But leadership needs to be limited to those who are leading lives that "cannot be spoken against". In other words ... men who resist temptation and live Godly lives. Do I sound too harsh? If so, it may be because the church has become so tolerant to sin. What does scripture say about those who want to be leaders in the church? 1 Timothy 3:1-7 It is a true saying that if someone wants to be an elder, he desires an honorable responsibility. For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exhibit self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home and must be able to teach. He must not be a heavy drinker or be violent. He must be gentle, peace loving, and not one who loves money. He must manage his own family well, with children who respect and obey him. For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church? An elder must not be a new Christian, because he might be proud of being chosen so soon, and the Devil will use that pride to make him fall. Also, people outside the church must speak well of him so that he will not fall into the Devil's trap and be disgraced.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 714 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 1:53 pm:        1 John 3:7 Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it is because they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.188.98 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 2:04 pm:        I agree with EVERYONE...sort of. One thing I did realize is that Ted does NOT speak for all gay men. So we can't use him as an example of a gay man (or woman) who is dealing with his or her sexual orientation (sorry, preference just doesn't ring true for me--can anyone provide any evidence that ANYONE has EVER "chosen" to be gay? It's just not there.) And wow, trainedobserver -- you're a real live "secular humanist?"!! I thought the religious right just made that up back in the 1990s! The only thing I'd differ with you on--which I think you'll agree (?) -- is that it IS unique compared to other religions in that Jesus is the only man/Man who rose from the dead and said he/He was/is God. I don't know if any of the other leaders (Buddah,Confucius, Lao-tse, Zoroaster, Muhammad, etc) every said they were god. Or at least I don't think any of them rose from the dead or claimed to, but it's been many years since I've studied the other religions. And I agree with you most/many Christian leaders don't know or study other religions, they just "denounce" them. Regardless of what you think o Jesus, He went around saying who He was, not really trashing everyone else or what they believed. And that got Him killed...   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 3:32 pm:        trainedobserver: Fine. I can't really continue this conversation with you on any real level... God loves you, and I love you with the love of the Lord... I hope the other commenters in this thread do, too. Marta: Yeah, I couldn't disagree more. Anyone who believes its OK to be a hypocrite because "we're all sinners saved by grace" is greatly deceived. First of all, we WERE sinners, but now we ARE saved, and second, we are NO LONGER "sinners" but now are saints and children of God. As such, we should be exercising our faith and believing as such. I agree that leadership should only include those who are above reproach. The Bible speaks to that, esp. when it comes to those who are on the elder level of leadership. (I believe that Ted can be restored into ministry, but never on the same level, and never back to being a full-time senior pastor). Bachman: Yeah, I know people who have "chosen" to be gay. Unfortunately, because of the deception of homosexuality, no one who has "chosen" to be gay admits their choice in the matter. Instead, they CHOOSE to play the BLAME GAME and point the finger elsewhere (their childhood, their environment, their genetics, etc.) But seriously, they need to take responsibility, and point the finger at themselves because they made that choice.   fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1667 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 4:49 pm:        I can't really continue this conversation with you on any real level... God loves you, and I love you with the love of the Lord... I hope the other commenters in this thread do, too. does anyone see a contradiction here? what kind of love says you don't believe the same thing as me so i cannot talk to you? at least i know that god will continue to communicate with him.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 365 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:19 pm:        Fatherofaking: My apologies. Its just that 'trainedobserver' and I are on such a different wavelength it would be hard for either of us to truly understand each other concerning this topic. Certainly I would talk to 'trainedobserver,' but it would be on a different not matter, outside the scope of this thread. Make sense?   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 715 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:21 pm:        Yeah, I couldn't disagree more. Anyone who believes its OK to be a hypocrite because "we're all sinners saved by grace" is greatly deceived. Which is my point exactly. So, I'm not sure why you disagree so strongly ... unless you are just being difficult. We are not talking about someone who made a mistake. We are talking about someone who was teaching one thing and living his life another way, all the while covering his sin so no one would know. What kind of person does this? Definitely not someone who should be in a leadership position. Not someone who should be held up as an example for others to follow.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 366 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:23 pm:        Marta: No, I think you misunderstood me. When I said I couldn't disagree more, I was trying to say I actually agree with YOU (and cannot disagree with you). I was using an intentional double negative.... sorry, it caused confusion.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 716 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 5:35 pm:        OK ... sorry for the misunderstanding.   fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1668 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 7:02 pm:        Make sense? yes it makes sense. i will let TO handle this. i was adressing an apparent contradiction. not what someone is capable of talking about.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2405 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.96.25.137 Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 7:13 pm:        I'd encourage you to read 1984 or at least the definition of doublethink above. I believe doublethink explains the contradiction. Christianity teaches doublethink. I think jbkrems mindset bares a striking resemblance to the attitude that Muslims express about 'Infidels'. There are all flavors of Christians, many are like that chocolate that tastes sweet at first and then becomes rather bitter. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/sheep.html#haggard   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 377 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 12:51 am:        trainedobserver: I disagree that Christianity teaches doublethink. Rather, Christianity actually teaches the opposite. But you won't believe me, given the fact that you're a secular humanist. And there is a biblical basis for a type of Christianity that tastes sweet at first, and then becomes bitter. Again, you won't believe me, given the fact that you're a secular humanist. Actually, I take your bitter and sweet thing as a compliment... that's a GOOD thing in my view.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 834 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.100.181.248 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 3:46 am:        There is a disorder known as Compulsive and addictive behaviour. Homosexual behaviour falls in this category.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2406 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.24 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 10:45 am:        jbkrems, So you think you have some mystical understanding that I do not or do you just think I'm mentally incapable understanding you?   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2407 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.24 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 11:01 am:        jbkrems, So you think you have some mystical understanding that I do not or do you just think I'm mentally incapable understanding you?   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.157.121 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 1:20 pm:        Before we get too far off base, can we reel it back into Ted Haggard? This thread should really be "all Ted, All Straight, All The Time!" And we can all rejoice because since I posted this on Feb 6, he's been straight and cured for over a month!   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2408 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.28 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:44 pm:        He doesn't like Meth! He just likes the way it smells!   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2409 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.28 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:54 pm:        He doesn't like Meth! He just likes the way it smells!   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2691 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:54 pm:        "Before we get too far off base, can we reel it back into Ted Haggard? This thread should really be "all Ted, All Straight, All The Time!" Well, thank goodness we have people who fail right..gives us all someone to talk about and cricize -isn't that great..always a perfect forum for ripping people in two..shut even I fell into the trap here...He blew it and he needs to find another vocation...everybody knows when a person spends half their time in the pulpit- speaking out against homosexuality..they are probably a homosexual-whoppie...heavens I used to sit under the teachings of a minister who loved to talk about either money or sex...go figure. Did any of you learn anything from this or have all you "christians" like Martha and Bachman just become better judges- I bet you guys love it when people fall into sin and they have to go up in front of the whole church and confess their failure -so much fun isn't it..judging and shunning and not eating at the same table people who have sexual fetishes and take drugs?? I bet many of enjoy watching a fall from grace..just wonder what you have hiding in your closests...R (Message edited by rachelengland on March 05, 2007)   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2692 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 3:14 pm:        TO do you find it funny when someone is addicted to drugs...or just christians who are addicted to drugs?   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 717 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 4:07 pm:        rachelengland, Aren't you judging me? Or is it just the ones with sexual fetishes and who take drugs that are above judgement with you? Your accusations reveal a lack understanding of scripture and of God. Scripture tells us that we are to expose and rebuke those in the church who are sinning. It is not our place to judge those outside the church. But those who call themselves Christians, true followers of Jesus Christ, should be living for Him and not for themselves. Anyone who is engaged in sexual sin and illegal behavior such as taking drugs, shows by their actions that they are liars. They are not really living for Him, they are not obeying Him. Instead of being a slave to Him they have once again become a slave to sin. Sin is their master and they need to repent. And yes, scripture says we are not to associate with such people. Am I happy when I see someone fall? Of course not. It grieves me to see anyone throw away such a precious gift from God and once again become a slave to sin. I don't know why it happens ... whether they value God's gift so lightly or they love this world and what it has to offer too much. But unless they repent and start living the way that the Lord has commanded, they should not be allowed to fellowship with those who are living for God. Do you think this is harsh? Go back to the OT and see how God dealt with those who fell away under the old covenant.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2410 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.30 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 4:35 pm:        Of course I don't. (I'm hoping that was a rhetorical question) Only a truly jaded, cruel, and mentally disturbed individual would find enjoyment in tormenting someone over something they have little or no power over. Like the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, or chemical dependencies that they have no control over, say like nicotine or heroin addiction. In the case of heroin, the real failure was the individuals initial poor decision to take the drug knowing one use can cause a life-time physical addiction and not his continued inability to do anything about it. Ted's shortcomings are a bit more complicated than that. No, I find it hilarious that the man who is the founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and who was leader of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003 until November 2006 was actually perpetrating a fraud, a swindle,and a con-job where he was handed millions of dollars by well meaning people and was on weekly conference calls to the White House. I find it incredibly amusing that while he stood in front of 10s of thousands of people and preached intolerance and fear toward homosexuals and illegal drug use he was indulging in both secretly himself. Imagine what it must have been like for Ted to laugh in uncontrollable meth-induced hysteria at his congregation, his family, and the American public while he did lines of methamphetamine and pleasured his male lover? He must have laughed until he cried thinking of his performance in "Jesus Camp." Now just imagine that same Ted declaring he is 100% heterosexual now simply because he was caught and went into "rehab" (that along should cause you to break a rib or wet your pants one) for a few days. Oh rachel, it is divine comedy presented as only the human heart can play it out. It is possible to appreciate it for what it is without actually approving of it. It's a bit like art. Here you have Ted, a poor tortured soul, unable to either accept or reject his own desires, struggling to uphold a contrived and invented version of himself to the world because by the standard he claims to live by would judge him a sorcerer, a reprobate and a sodomite. Someone is going to make a fortune off of the screenplay. However, I can't think of anyone who could do that bizarre thing Ted does with his upper lip when he talks. Know what I mean?   cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 736 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 4:38 pm:        Am I happy when I see someone fall? Of course not. It grieves me to see anyone throw away such a precious gift from God and once again become a slave to sin. I don't know why it happens ... whether they value God's gift so lightly or they love this world and what it has to offer too much. Amen, marta In the years I've know you, you have always maintained your integrity, both to the Word and to the Truth it contains. You shoot from the hip and aren't easily intimidated or afraid to tell it like it is. I haven't always agreed with you but I know you are someone here with whom it's a pleasure to agree to disagree. And at least on this one, I agree! BTW, thanks to bachman (another who posts with intregity) for bringing everyone back on topic. Cybermom   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2694 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 4:42 pm:        I do not have a lack of understanding for the scripture Martha ..you have "misjudged me"... We don't live under the laws of the OT- Now when one sins he/she needs to repent and turn from evil..and when one does this- they don't need it repeatedly rubbed in their face that they blew it...I certainly am not a Haggart supporter by any means but what I see here is a reflection of how many people in churches today are being treated "after" repentance... Tell me do you have the same vigor for judging when someone is in a leadership position and they are found gossipping..I mean a sin is a sin in God's eye and by the way did Jesus tell us not to associate with sinners- He said let the one who has never fallen throw the first stone( she had been sleeping with many men)-love your neighbor as yourself, I am pretty sure Jesus said that..so my hope is Martha that you are flawless because if we are going to judge you really need to be flawless-I mean especially if Ted Haggart wants to dine with you...   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 381 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 4:47 pm:        Inkorrekt: Ok. So, alchoholism would ALSO be a mental illness for the same reason. I can understand that. But BOTH alcoholism AND homosexuality can be overcome by the power of God. Amen? Trainedobserver: Yes, I think you lack basic spiritual understanding that most Christians, including myself, possess. Rachel: Thanks for desiring to reel this thread in. I think we all should learn how to keep judgment and do righteousness at all times. That is what God expects of us and what the Bible teaches. This does not mean that we judge other people. On the contrary, it DOES mean that we judge OURSELVES and examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith, and let the light of God shine down in our hearts to expose sin so we can repent. If we're not doing this on a regular basis, then we can get off track like Ted Haggard and be removed like he was.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2411 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.30 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 5:05 pm:        jbkrems, I see. Your superior understanding excuses you from having to explain why your superior 'spiritual' understanding isn't anything more than a false self-righteousness where you would easily excuse a career criminal like Ted Haggart because he is 'part of the club'. I bet you would rather have a serial rapist who says he found Jesus in prison live beside you than you would an honest atheist. Ok, True Christian jbkrems, while you're patting Ted on the back for giving up a long standing deceitful and illegal life-style for Jesus(for real this time I'm sure) make sure your hand is on your wallet, or purse, or whatever. Christians get the leaders they deserve. Cheats, liars, rapists, child-molesters, and megalomaniacal political lapdogs are in the ranks of the church because they are tolerated and excused. Not because of spiritual understanding, but for the lack of it. Enjoy them, I no longer do.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 383 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 5:11 pm:        Trainedobserver: You won't agree with this, but the Bible teaches that non-Christians (such as yourself) lack spiritual understanding, and cannot understand spiritual principles. Likewise, the Bible teaches that Christians (such as myself) can and do gain spiritual understanding and understand spiritual principles. This isn't self-righteousness, but a basic fact and premise of Christianity. I do not excuse Ted Haggard's actions, though. I don't believe people are part of any club. As to whether I would prefer a serial rapist who says he found Jesus in prison living next to me, compared to an honest atheist, it all depends. If the honest atheist leaves me alone, and does not mind that a born-again Christian lives next door --- a Christian who will attempt to befriend and witness to him --- then I'd take the honest atheist. Further, I don't pat Ted Haggard on the back. He has been punished in the proper manner for what he did (removal from the ministry, etc.)   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2412 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.30 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 5:36 pm:        "You won't agree with this, but the Bible teaches that non-Christians (such as yourself) lack spiritual understanding, and cannot understand spiritual principles. " That is quite a ludicrous and insulting notion. Can you explain to me why I shouldn't be able to understand anything that you can? Unless you are a whiz at Calculus in which case I'll bow out now and eat my humble pie. What would be different about how my brain processes information and yours? The level of credulity maybe? And I wouldn't have a problem with a honest "born-again" Christian neighbor who wouldn't mind actually presenting logical arguments and evidence for their religious claims in a conversation with a skeptic. My point is he wasn't punished properly. If this had been in the business sector Ted would be in jail facing charges of fraud and his congregation would be suing him for the money he took under false pretenses. See jb, I'm talking about accountability and consistency here. In my limited spiritual understanding accountability and consistency are important. It is important that million dollar preachers are held as accountable as anyone in the private sector who commits fraud. Its important that our laws, and attitudes toward who obeys them is consistent across society. No one class should be exempt from the laws imposed on others. Therefore, your dismissal of this swindling, hate-mongering, fraud of a man with a "removal from the ministry" is no different than the attitude of the leadership of the Catholic church in their harboring of pedophile priests. Just like Peter Popoff and Jimmy Swaggart, the churches lack of holding their leaders truly accountable for their actions will result in Ted's return to "the ministry" somewhere else where he can take money under false pretenses again. But I'm sure you've already realized this with your mystically charged intellect.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 384 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 5:50 pm:        Trained observer: Again, you won't agree with this, but Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 2:14-15, "A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot UNDERSTAND them, for they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one." This is what I am talking about here. Its not about natural knowledge, like calculus. Its about spiritual knowledge, which we cannot understand, unless we are a Christian, and have what is called the "renewed mind." Again, because these are spiritual concepts, I do not expect you to understand them. And Christianity cannot be explained by logic. No logic will explain the Virgin Birth or creation or other miracles. Ted Haggard was basicaly forced to resign from his position. He basically "plead guilty" and was fired (although he resigned instead of being fired). It was a real disappointment and disgrace. He is getting the help and treatment he needs. He would not get that if he went to prison. I do not dismiss what happened with Ted Haggard. He was removed from ministry, which is punishment enough for his actions. Now those who are spiritual need to restore him (that is in the Bible, too).   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2414 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.39 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 7:54 pm:        jbkrems, "And Christianity cannot be explained by logic. No logic will explain the Virgin Birth or creation or other miracles. " Then Christianity is therefore out of the realm rational thought and is meaningless or unreal by definition. Logic does not explain how Alice went through the looking glass either jb. Spiritual Knowledge, renewed mind, etc. are nothing but Mumbo-Jumbo(look it up)in my experience and that conclusion is supported by the wretched lives of Ted, Lonnie Laythan, Tony Alamo, and others whose pretense of righteousness was exposed as a fraud. The evidence for the truth of what I am saying is right in front of you here in the text of FACTnet. Fraudulent preachers of the gospel may be dismissed by Christians quoting Paul but in reality false and criminal preachers shouldn't be just dismissed because they say they love Jesus. They are parasites and vipers in society that need to be addressed and not looked over so they can continue their pillaging of the desperate and needy.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 835 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 132.194.83.60 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 9:10 pm:        Alcoholism and homosexuality can be healed and I have seen this happen. I have been to the Baptist church in Hammond, Indiana 3 times and I have been delivered from Nicitine. www.hbcdelivers.org. About alcoholism, it shows the symptoms of a disease process.Chronic effects of alcoholism tends to reflect disease process. Alcohol affects every cell in the body. Specially it affects the cerebellum. All motor actvities are impaired. At the liver, it blocks all the enzymes. Alcoholism itself is not a disease. It reflects the symptoms of a disease. Homosexuality is a mental disorder. I have prayed for a lesbian and she has been delivered. So, nothing is impossible with God. No one is born a homosexual. All of them can be healed. I did not want to be healed of Nicotine. So I had to come up with excuses and lies. When I admitted my own lies, I was healed.   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 836 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 132.194.83.60 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 9:11 pm:        Alcoholism and homosexuality can be healed and I have seen this happen. I have been to the Baptist church in Hammond, Indiana 3 times and I have been delivered from Nicitine. www.hbcdelivers.org. About alcoholism, it shows the symptoms of a disease process.Chronic effects of alcoholism tends to reflect disease process. Alcohol affects every cell in the body. Specially it affects the cerebellum. All motor actvities are impaired. At the liver, it blocks all the enzymes. Alcoholism itself is not a disease. It reflects the symptoms of a disease. Homosexuality is a mental disorder. I have prayed for a lesbian and she has been delivered. So, nothing is impossible with God. No one is born a homosexual. All of them can be healed. I did not want to be healed of Nicotine. So I had to come up with excuses and lies. When I admitted my own lies, I was healed.So, these conditions are caused by demons.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 386 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.129 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 10:31 pm:        Trainedobserver: That actually DOES line up with Scripture. God is NOT a rational being. The Bible says that "God's thoughts are not man's thoughts," etc. The fact is God has way more superior intellect than mankind will ever have, and His thoughts are so way different than the thoughts of man. His ways are higher as well. The concepts of "spiritual knowledge" and "renewed mind" are NOT mumbo-jumbo. They are, in fact, directly in the Bible, if you'd be interested in looking at THAT for yourself instead of dwelling here at FactNet. The names you mention might have perverted their version of Christianity... but that does not mean the real thing is as bad as you say, trainedobserver. Inkorrekt: I absolutely agree with 100% of what you said. Amen, my brother.   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 718 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 12:33 am:        rachelengland, I will ask you again ... are you judging me? I only ask this because it is apparent that you are quite content with judging me (BTW, I have no problem with that except that you are not judging me rightly, IMO) yet you condemn me for judging someone else. So, stop being a hypocrite ... if you really believe that it is wrong to judge ... then stop judging me.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2415 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.96.25.137 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 8:25 am:        Do your read the stuff you respond to? I believe I told you I was a Christian for over 30 years. I've taught Sunday School. I've read and studied several translations front to back. OK? I know what is in the Bible and I know what mainstream and some of not so main stream Christianity, teach quite well. I understand the concept of the renewed mind as the Southern Baptists teach it. Which is pretty much universal as far as I know. I'm saying it isn't what it seems to be. If you are seeing changes in behavior and thought patterns it is no more than any other ideology can produce. What is happening, namely behavior and thought modification, happens to Muslims, to Hindus, etc.,etc. This is also true of feelings or sensations induced by worship, meditation, and contemplation. Ted could get up tomorrow and go down to a mosque and become a muslim and never snort another line. He could become a Hari Krisna, etc., etc.   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 387 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 12:25 pm:        Trainedobserver: My friend, if you were a Christian for over 30 years, and did all that stuff, I question whether you had genuine faith and a genuine relationship with God. It sounds like your faith is based on knowledge of the Bible, and on doing stuff in the church. That's religion, and not a real relationship with God. My faith and "religion" is based on an experiential, INTIMATE relationship with God. This is what it means to be "spiritual." I'm not a Southern Baptist. I'm a charismatic. Southern Baptists, for the most part, do not agree with the charismatic view of spirituality. Its unfortunate, but true. What denomination were you??? Southern Baptist? The renewing of the mind is a spiritual process of transformation. It involves not just a study of various Bible translations, but meditation on the Word of God, marinating yourself in the Scriptures, and in PRAYER. It involves presenting yourself (see Rom. 12:1) before God on a regular, NO, daily basis, as a LIVING and HOLY sacrifice. This means living a pure life, and coming before God each day, totally relying on Him to instruct and correct your ways. It means being HUMBLE, and living a prayerful life. Was that the Christianity you experienced for over 30 years? Or was there something missing? I've been a Christian for 13 years as of next month (April of this year). I've made a decision and committed in my heart that once I've started to plow, I won't turn back, no, not ever will I turn back. The Bible really speaks against those who DO turn back, and you should know that, since you studied the Scriptures for so long. Right?   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2699 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 12:34 pm:        Ahhhh....I see Marta- it is fun to do the judging but no fun to be judged...R I also am wondering why 2 times Bachman wrote that in the New Testament that Jesus never spoke out against homosexuality and that in that era it was a common practice..I think he even said pedophilia was a common practice..just like going to the movies..wonder why he keeps bringing this up? (Message edited by rachelengland on March 06, 2007)   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 719 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 12:47 pm:        Ahhhh....I see Marta- it is fun to do the judging but no fun to be judged...R Hey, you can judge me all you like. Just stop being a hypocrite about it.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2416 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.11 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 1:13 pm:        Yes, yes, I was a Southern Baptist. I got involved in the charismatic/pentecostal movement for many years. I spoke in tongues, etc., etc. I experienced extraordinary things that I misunderstood. Lady, I was Christian as it gets. I got up at 4 to pray,I fasted, I read and meditated on the Bible. I've read Madame Guyon and the Cloud of Unknowing. I believed in contemplation. I actively sought god's face and voice every day. So spare me your uninformed judgments about whether I was a committed Christian or not. Your language is almost entirely composed of Christian cleeshays(spel). Your faith demands that you never consider any possibility other than the Bible is true. How can that be a good thing? The Bible speaks against a lot things. Of course it would discourage you not to leave the church. They kill you in Islam you know. The fact is I'm a much better person morally and emotionally since I stopped believing in god, the supernatural, and all of that it implies and that is the honest truth. It is foolish to abandon reason for faith. I know the Bible encourages you by telling you foolishness is all part of the plan. Of course it would. Doubt, skepticism, and science are the paths to real truth about the real world in which we live. History shows us that so-called 'revealed knowledge' like that in the Bible, is highly unreliable and a foolish thing to depend on. Britney is the now the Antichrist b.t.w. The end is near. (Message edited by trainedobserver on March 06, 2007)   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2700 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 1:54 pm:        "The fact is I'm a much better person morally and emotionally since I stopped believing in god, the supernatural, and all of that it implies and that is the honest truth" Really..imagine that? So when you were a christian..you really weren't that great of a guy TO.. Do you think if you tried you could still speak in tongues.. Maybe Ted Haggart(trying to keep this about Ted all the time) ought to look into that transformation you speak of...   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 388 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 6:33 pm:        Trainedobserver: First, I'm a man, not a lady... Now that I've clarified this... most Southern Baptists I know have never had an authentic, genuine, supernatural encounter with God. I am not saying this was true with you, but this can be true even with charismatics, where maybe they speak in tongues, but they never have a real supernatural experience with God beyond that. They really do not know His power and His might at work in their lives. Its really really sad, because they're experience with God ultimately is limited to the five senses of the human body, and does not transcend that and become really spiritual and supernatural. That might have been your experience, and maybe not. But if it was, then you really missed out. It sounds to me, IMHO, that your experience with Christ was based on DOING things, rather than on BEING a Christian, having a living, breathing, supernatural relationship with Christ. You keep on saying what you did, but you do not say what you experienced, or spiritually felt while you did those things. You can fast and pray all you want, you can read your Bible all you want, but none of these things means anything if you do not have a supernatural, power-filled relationship with God. You said, "Your (speaking to me) faith demands that I never consider any possibility other than the Bible is true." Yep, that's rather accurate. Because the Bible is the Word of God, and if I did consider another possibility, then that would NOT BE FAITH. That would be doubt and unbelief, and I won't enter there. The Bible also speaks FOR a lot of things. The Bible teaches you how to treat people, and I'm not just speaking of manners. Certainly the Bible also teaches against certain behaviors and attitudes (like pride, rebellion, etc.) --- the Bible is THE manual for life. Trainedobserver, Rachel's comments about your statement that you are NOW a better person morally and emotionally... her comments speak volumes. The fact you say that indicates you are morally bankrupt and full of pride!   inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 71.237.119.248 Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 10:19 pm:        Mark Brewer was my pastor. He moved to Hollywood. He ministered to Brittany Spears and she was saved 10 years ago. Where she is today is only between God and her.   bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 146 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 162.84.178.199 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 7:41 am:        How did Britney Spears get mentioned on this board?? I leave you all alone for a couple days and you have gotten off-topic again! Britney has 34,589,500 websites devoted to her. This thread is All Ted, All The Time. rachelengland, if you would go back and read by ORIGINAL topic for this thread, the first one, you will see that I posted it because Ted said he was cured in 3 weeks. NO ONE finds it funny that Ted was "called out" (so to speak!) about his behavior--what we are all aghast about is that he says he is now "cured" of something he struggled with most of his life, by his own admission. And if you read my own personal experience with this (my sister was married to a man like Ted) then I think you'd apologize for your comments to me. It is terribly hurtful to be married to a man you think is straight but turns out to be gay -- to any women on this board, imagine how much it would impact your own sexuality! (Or men, if your straight wife was gay.) The insult to Ted's wife, family and the thousands who are wish they weren't gay (as opposed to those who are gay and okay with it) is extreme, and for him to say he was cured in 3 weeks is what the "black humor" is about. So it's funny in a, "Can you BELIEVE this guy?" The response, NOT the situation. So no, I don't find it funny -- I find it tragic, and it's made worse by his "Hey, I'm fine now!" confession. Finally,I think we all agree that we are not "commanded" to follow Christ or become Christians. God gives us the choice to believe in Him or not, and to follow as long as we want to. So lay off trainedobserver--his experience with Christianity was as real as any of ours, he followed for longer than many people on this board, so if he chose not to follow for whatever reason, that's his choice. You NEVER read where Jesus ran off after people and begged them to "return" to Him -- Jesus pretty much kept moving (physically walking) and it was up to people then (and now) to keep up with Him. He didn't get in arguments with people like some of the postings here, unless it was defending the character of His father. Writing that trainedobserver is "morally bankrupt and full of pride!" is a bit over the top. And off target about Ted. Unless I misread that and you were writing about Ted. In that case, you are correct!   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2701 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 9:16 am:        "Writing that trainedobserver is "morally bankrupt and full of pride!" is a bit over the top. And off target about Ted". First of all Bachman- I didn't say that about TO-he is who he is and that is fine by me.. If you are so concerned about a mans wife and family- why do you start threads like this...my hope is it is that you wish other homosexual, married men do not make the same mistake as "Ted" did- they ought not get married at all..probably a good choice ..right Bachman To me Ted haggard is just an example of what happens when christians put men and women up on pedestals -they worship their every words and agree with their ideas and concepts, they support them financially by buying their books and attending their seminars and boy oh boy you better watch it if you dare touch God's anoited this goes for anyone from Arnold Murray to Carmen..it's all over this religious forum I have seen it here on factnet from the very moment I first posted ..the man worshipping ..if you are christian why do you need all these guys anyway..Isn't Jesus enough? (Message edited by rachelengland on March 07, 2007)   cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 737 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.186.102.112 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 9:55 am:        You NEVER read where Jesus ran off after people and begged them to "return" to Him -- Jesus pretty much kept moving (physically walking) and it was up to people then (and now) to keep up with Him. Amen. We see that also in the "Prodigal Son" parable; the father didn't run after his son or waste time searching high and low for him - he stayed where he was, but was always looking to see if he'd come back. In my extended family I have also experienced a supposedly straight husband leave wife and kids to pursue the gay lifestyle. The devastation is unreal and far-reaching. Either Ted is schizophrenic/in complete denial or he is doing everything in his power to have his cake and eat it too. I completely agree with your posts. CM   rachelengland Senior Member Username: rachelengland Post Number: 2704 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 216.109.192.236 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 10:19 am:        "Mark Brewer was my pastor. He moved to Hollywood. He ministered to Brittany Spears and she was saved 10 years ago. Where she is today is only between God and her". inkorrect..I am going to take this off from "Ted" a moment to say something to you(though I think TO was just being sarcastic) I used to enjoy pop culture but lately I have been very disgusted with it-when I saw her with a bald head and running reckless a few weeks ago, everywhere I looked people were laughing,gossiping they all thought it was a real hoot...but I have seen the church is no different..pointing fingers inkorrect it's always fun until it points at you..Take care R (Message edited by rachelengland on March 07, 2007)   marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 720 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.186.107.93 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 11:00 am:        You NEVER read where Jesus ran off after people and begged them to "return" to Him -- Jesus pretty much kept moving (physically walking) and it was up to people then (and now) to keep up with Him. Amen. We see that also in the "Prodigal Son" parable; the father didn't run after his son or waste time searching high and low for him - he stayed where he was, but was always looking to see if he'd come back. I have to agree with bachman and CM on this one. I can think of sereval stories in scripture that support this. Jesus did not force anyone to follow Him. And, IMO, it's more honest for someone to walk away and admit that they no longer want to follow after Him ... than those who call Jesus Lord but refuse to do the things He has commanded.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2417 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.32 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 3:08 pm:        jb, Pardon my assumption that you are a woman. I don't know what got me thinking that. At any rate ... ...Christ was based on DOING things, rather than on BEING a Christian, having a living, breathing, supernatural relationship with Christ. That really wasn't the case. Perhaps at one time but I came to an understanding of the doctrine of grace that pretty much released me from that many years ago. Baptists tend to be legalistic in my experience. I was raised in the Baptist church, accepted Christ at 11, got interested in the pentecostal movement(s), was 'baptized in the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues', became disillusioned by teachings that I became to believe were contrary to scripture and returned to the Southern Baptist church. The 'autonomy of the believer' to 'work out his own salvation with fear and trembling' allowed me to serve without necessarily agreeing with all of Baptist doctrine. I really don't feel like I need to justify myself to you however this does bring to light the lack of room for any doubt or skepticism, about the authenticity of your faith. You claim to have a supernatural 'relationship' with Christ. Could you please explain what you mean by that? Do you hear voices or see visions or do you just feel 'lead' to do things? "The fact you say that indicates you are morally bankrupt and full of pride!" To the contrary, it was a comment relevant to the conversation and part of my honest 'testimony'. It isn't something I would normally say in day to day conversation. I see, you berate me for judging Ted but you are quick to be judge and jury for me. I am, in my opinion, in much better shape morally, emotionally, and physically since abandoning religion. I say this as a criticism of religion's malignate influence in my life and not boasting of any kind. But take it however like.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2418 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.50 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 3:29 pm:        jb, Pardon my assumption that you are a woman. I don't know what got me thinking that. At any rate ... ...Christ was based on DOING things, rather than on BEING a Christian, having a living, breathing, supernatural relationship with Christ. That really wasn't the case. Perhaps at one time but I came to an understanding of the doctrine of grace that pretty much released me from that many years ago. Baptists tend to be legalistic in my experience. I was raised in the Baptist church, accepted Christ at 11, got interested in the pentecostal movement(s), was 'baptized in the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues', became disillusioned by teachings that I became to believe were contrary to scripture and returned to the Southern Baptist church. The 'autonomy of the believer' to 'work out his own salvation with fear and trembling' allowed me to serve without necessarily agreeing with all of Baptist doctrine. I really don't feel like I need to justify myself to you however this does bring to light the lack of room for any doubt or skepticism, about the authenticity of your faith. You claim to have a supernatural 'relationship' with Christ. Could you please explain what you mean by that? Do you hear voices or see visions or do you just feel 'lead' to do things? "The fact you say that indicates you are morally bankrupt and full of pride!" To the contrary, it was a comment relevant to the conversation and part of my honest 'testimony'. It isn't something I would normally say in day to day conversation. I see, you berate me for judging Ted but you are quick to be judge and jury for me. I am, in my opinion, in much better shape morally, emotionally, and physically since abandoning religion. I say this as a criticism of religion's malignate influence in my life and not meant to be boasting of any kind. But take it however like. It is a simple matter jb. If the supernatural does not exist then the Bible is a human book and Jehovah is just another mythological god like Zeus. I can't honestly say there is any reason to believe Jehovah is real and Zeus, Mars, are not. If I could I would 'believe', however when I realized the absurdity of assuming that the creator of the universe was Jehovah/Jesus and had chosen me to have a personal relationship with him. This assumption was based on the fact that I was born into a Christian family. Had I been born into a Muslim family I would have been a Muslim. Although I did explore other viewpoints on god I never strayed from the Christian faith along the way. Finally, if I was going to be honest with myself I'd have to admit the reason I was a Christian and not something else is a matter of chance. I acquired the knowledge of Christ by an accident of birth. If I am worthy why isn't that Hindu kid or that Muslim kid and what does that say about god? This and several other things caused me to "not believe" anymore. I can't believe on demand anymore.   trsrinheaven Advanced Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 925 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 4:12 pm:        For Ted and everyone the answer and the truth is always in Gods word. Ted just forgot who he is and whose he is. He was seduced by the deceptive spirit of lust and its feelings. He stopped walking by faith and instead walked by feelings giving place for satan to steal from him. Mark 4:19 His heart hardened by listening to his feelings flesh minded - not staying in the word. Romans 8 He also did not confide in a trustworthy friend for their help. This is the pressure of many a Christian leader on the front lines. The ones on the front lines get most of the attacks, jabs, fire and flack. Renewing the mind daily, transforming ones wrong thinking becoming the image of what God says, has given us and made us in our born again Spirit. Identifying with what God says we are in our spirit to manifest through in our physical life and mind. "As a man THINKETH in his heart so is he.." Ted needs a checkup from the neck up and to rid himself of stinkin' thinking. Gods word transforms us if we continue in it.Romans 12:2 "2Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] RENEWAL OF YOUR MIND [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you]". Romans 12:1-2 "Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.(We have a choice) 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God." Romans 6:11-13 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 7For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:16-25 Gods word is spirit... "As a man THINKETH in his heart so is he.." Ted needs a checkup from the neck up and to rid himself of WRONG thinking. Gods word transforms us if we continue in it. Romans 12:2 Notice below that Jesus told us IF WE CONTINUE IN HIS WORD not just learn it once or read it once but continue in it then we will stay free. Jesus said.. "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:31-36   jbkrems Intermediate Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 389 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 72.198.1.109 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 4:39 pm:        Trainedobserver: Your apologies are accepted. The way you communicate and articulate your views about Christianity shows a very intellectual experience. I'm not judging that as right or wrong, but trying to paraphrase and understand where you're coming from, TO. I know what you mean by Baptists being legalistic. My pastor is a former Southern Baptist, although I am not. But I do understand legalism, and I do understand that Christianity should not be legalistic. Its about having that living relationship with God... You asked me what I meant by having a "supernatural relationship with God." Let me elaborate on that. Its a personal, living, BEING relationship. Do I hear voices? No, I hear ONE STILL SMALL VOICE. Do I see visions? Not on a regular basis, but its happened twice in my life. Do I "feel led" to do certain things? Sometimes, so long as that "still small voice" deep inside me, called the Holy Spirit, instructs me to do somethig. Basically, I expect God on a daily basis to lead me, guide me, correct me, and direct me, in everything I do. As the song says, he's my constant companion and best friend. TO, I am sorry if you believed that I judged you. That's not my intent. I am really trying to help you, here. Unfortunately, you can be sincere in your opinion of this issue, but you can be sincerely wrong. If you and the other commenters would indulge me, I'd like to share my personal testimony with you, Trainedobserver. I was raised Reform Jewish, in a very unpracticing home. My own parents, as we speak, are practically agnostic or atheist. God is irrelevant to them. My brother does not believe in any Higher Power, except himself, and he denounces Judiasm as well. About 9 months after my bar mitzvah, I found Jesus, or should I say that Jesus found me. I wasn't born into a Christian family. I have not had the privilege of Christian parents, to teach, train, and admonish me in the Christian faith. Christ found me in a supernatural way, because I felt VERY adrift in my lack of spirituality, because Judaism provided NOTHING for me... it was spiritually devoid and bankrupt. I need a Rock to cast my anchor on, and I found that Rock to be the Christ. That was almost 13 years ago. My faith grows stronger day after day. Not because of something I have done, but because of what Jesus did for me. It doesn't have anything to do with me being born into a certain family, or not. Nor does it have anything to do with what I did. Rather, it is all by God's grace. Now, TO, what do you think of that? Isn't that supernatural. There was absolutely NO reason for God to choose me to be one of His, except by His supernatural power and grace. I hope that is of inspiration to you... because its not the circumstances of birth that determines your religion. Its something totally different. Lastly, if your Christianity was a product of mere chance, then you never were a real Christian at all. I am so sure you know that Jesus said this, but some day, he will say to certain individuals, "Sorry, I never knew you." These individuals will tell Jesus, "I spoke in tongues in your name. I cast out devils in your name. I read the Bible in your name." And He will say to them, "Sorry, I never knew you." Despite their religious efforts, they NEVER KNEW Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and had NO salvation in Him. I really do pray and hope, Trainedobserver, that your fate is not described in that Bible passage in the Gospels. It would VERY sad and unfortunate, if Jesus said those words to you. Think about it. Sorry folks for getting off the beaten path about Ted, but I really felt led to minister to our friend, Trainedobserver, here.   trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2419 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.2 Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 5:45 pm:        "Its a personal, living, BEING relationship. " How is this manifested? "No, I he