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40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1798
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.146.35.209
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 7:46 am: | 
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I was just thinking as a middle aged guy, yeah I understand. You want to reach the world with the gospel but how do you do that as a Hospital Church? All the money you raise ends up going for the needs of people that are lost causes or can not give it back. That means no new boat in the flesh EN leaders. In order to spread the gospel you have to deny the gospel?
Just thinking thats all. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2694
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 9:26 am: |
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If you look at the ministry of Jesus, many times he went straight for the losers of the world. He said that those who are not sick don't need a physician. I think those losers did a pretty good job in spreading His message of grace. God is no respecter of how 'sharp' a person is. EN/MCM was built on a murky foundation of self-love, pride and arrogance.
God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. It is a spiritual law that reeks of His loving grace for us.
Just thinking too! Good topic, 40, made me think! |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 659
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.211.122.182
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 1:38 pm: |
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The bigger question is what does it mean to "reach the world"? The problem is that their answer is all wrong. They're just looking at "notches on the gun", how many people we get "saved". Get "saved" for what? Get "saved" from what? Get "saved" to DO what? Again, their answer would be wrong - to build the kingdom; to BE the kingdom; to "change the world"?
No, that is materialism; that is the same thing that Jesus rejected - being an earthly king. The Lord said the the "kingdom of God is within you". He said "if My kingdom were of this world, don't you think I could call on my followers...?" That's one reason why the Third Ecumenical council called chiliaism (millenialism) a heresy; because it is destructive of true faith. It makes one look for some material salvation (whether it's called that or not) and perverts the true Gospel.
The Gospel IS to the lowly. It is not to the "great", to the "strong", to the "wise" - it is to the "losers" of this world. And as long as you cannot see yourself as a "loser" to whom the Gospel comes, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. In the Orthodox Church, last Sunday was the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee. Eastern Orthodox fast (not total abstention, but a fast from certain food types, etc.) about half the year, total, including, generally, every Wednesday (in remembrance of Christ's betrayal) and every Friday (in remembrance of His death). However, this week is "fast free" because of what the Pharisee said, boasting before God, "...I fast twice a week..." We don't fast this week to remind ourselves that no amount of fasting justifies one before God. It is only when we come to God as the Publican did ("Have mercy on me, a sinner!") that we find ourselves "going away justified".
So, what does it mean to "reach the world"? Not worldly power; not political authority; not material wealth. That is all the world system. It is going to the lost, the lonely, the hurting, the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry - and sharing with them the fullness, the wholeness, of God's love and care for them! |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 2:14 pm: |
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To MCM.
Amen, Amen, Amen.
The church historically has shown to Grow under persecution. Our system is the OPPOSITE of the world's. ALL REAL CHURCHES are hospital churches.....otherwise how are we known. It is EASY to pull in young people with college degrees and give them a DESTINY which means to bring them VALUE by their works.
The way of CHRISTIANITY is to BRING VALUE to others, not get value by our works. Our own value is unimportant. Our leadership qualities are just dead if we do not have LOVE. Love cares for the sick, feeds the hungry and doesn't require EXCELLENT FAITH FOR EXCELLENT HEALTH, but requires an attitude that we have nothing, we are nothing, and we NEED our Savior.
We give what has been given to us. If all we receive is a heavy dose of LAW, then that is what we will offer people. And, if our strokes comes from being APPROVED and not simply being LOVED, then we will just march around the world in a system of APPROVING or DISSAPROVING of people. Anyone can do this. In fact, we humans ENJOY such things. But, it's the opposite of a godly spirit.
If we are loved when we are low, if we feel God's love and heart coming in to shower us over our HELPLESSNESS, then we can POUR that love into others. But, if we are already so BRAVADO LEADERSHIP MATERIAL, all we can give anyone is a heavy yoke. And, it is dead. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 2:29 pm: |
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Nice sermons y'all. Church on the internet. |
wisedove
Advanced Member
Username: wisedove
Post Number: 806
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 66.157.21.35
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 2:37 pm: |
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THAT WAS GOOD, DUST. THANKS FOR SHARING. |
j2theperson
Advanced Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 642
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 2:54 pm: |
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quote:Dust: The way of CHRISTIANITY is to BRING VALUE to others, not get value by our works. Our own value is unimportant. Our leadership qualities are just dead if we do not have LOVE. Love cares for the sick, feeds the hungry and doesn't require EXCELLENT FAITH FOR EXCELLENT HEALTH, but requires an attitude that we have nothing, we are nothing, and we NEED our Savior.
That sounds like works. You say our own value is unimportant and we should care for the sick and feed the hungry. That sounds like work to me--intense, overwhelming, terrifying work.
What if I don't have the energy to help others? I don't even have the energy to help myself. You say "our own value is unimportant", but the very fact that I am so unimportant is the source of the exhaustion that prevents me from being able to help others. I hate not being loved. I hate being all alone. I hate having no sort of emotional support and not knowing how to get it. How the hell am I supposed to minister to other people in this state? |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 660
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.211.122.182
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 3:48 pm: |
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Jessica,
You've got to be healed before you can heal others. Christian faith is not one size fits all. You grow into it. Before you can be part of the "triage" you've got have been through the treatment yourself. Of course, our healing is ongoing. We are never perfect, never attain a point where we no longer need to be healed, to grow more into the likeness of Christ. But you've got to start by being healed yourself. You don't have to be "important", just realize that you have something to offer. But first you've got to plug into to a "hospital" that will help heal you, not just want to take from you. You are not supposed to minister to others in that state - you're supposed to be ministered to. |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 364
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:19 pm: |
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j2theperson,
You wrote, "I hate not being loved. I hate being all alone. I hate having no sort of emotional support and not knowing how to get it. How the hell am I supposed to minister to other people in this state?"
I think that probably many people feel in the same way as you. You have blessed many people here with your posts so you are already helping others.
Do just what the Holy Spirit guides you to do. I hope that at least here we can be an internet hospital church and a place of fellowship.
Blessings
Pilgrim |
pilgrim
Intermediate Member
Username: pilgrim
Post Number: 365
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 195.93.21.134
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:50 pm: |
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In my life the christians who had help me the most had been people who are broken inside and sometimes in emotional pain.
They are they ones who seem to be able to have the patience to listen with love and give practical advice to a practical problem. They are also the ones who seem to be leaving in a real world and give you advice that help you to feel better. The advice of cult leaders used to make me feel worse. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1136
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 12:26 am: |
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J2,
I would think that you are the person to be reached out TO.
MCM explained what I meant very well. When we are full and healed (which is of course a process) we can help someone else.
It is not a WORK to help the poor or feed the hungry, if the motivation comes from the heart because God has directed it.
When I feel FULL and approved by God, I don't concern myself with getting value for my service, but more to bring a value others. If I feel heavy, burdened or burned out, then it's not right...maybe not my season, maybe not what God wants of me.
If I'm doing things to please leaders men, get status, get to heaven, impress, then it's a heavy yoke.
We can't do or desire to do anything for anyone if we aren't coming from a full place. The good news is that when it's from God, and we're operating with His heart, the yoke is light.
My expression in the original post was more about those in ministry (not sheep) who are going to the ends of the earth spreading the gospel. I think they should be spreading LOVE and SERVICE, as opposed to LEADERSHIP TRAINING. So this was not a directive to you to go and get busy. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 12:43 am: |
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J2: How the hell am I supposed to minister to other people in this state?
Dust: You are not....someone should be ministering to you......
I wish that you could just scratch everything you learned about God because it got mixed up with a religious system of approval/disapproval instead of unconditional love. And, the only place to get complete, unconditional love is from God, and sadly, you learned about God's love in a twisted way..
In EN you get passed by or walked over......they don't build their system on LOVE but by how YOU would build THEIR value.
My mother baked 12 dozen cookies today. Her church is sending 90 dozen out to the college kids (from her church) for Valentine's day. These women sacrificed their time to send some love to the kids on campus, let them know they are being thought of. This is the kind of thing I mean...... I would have LOVED this when I was in college! It's simple kindness. My mom didn't feel burdened doing this baking...she was enjoying it, because she feels FULL from God's love, so she is just pouring it out and it's her season for this. |
j2theperson
Advanced Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 649
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 12:58 am: |
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Thanks, Dust.
My problem now is that I can't find anyone to help me. A common thing I have heard and been told is that, whether you are full or not, you should minister to those less fortunate than you and by helping them you will then end up being miraculously filled yourself...which doesn't work. But I've heard people tell stories and give testimonies that promote this idea. If this is the mindset a lot of churches have what am I supposed to do?
I don't fit in to the image churches have of people who need ministering to. I'm smart, and I'm talented, and I have a middle class background. I'm not poor. I'm not ignorant. I'm not ugly. I'm not a single mother. I'm not homosexual or an addict or a victim of violence. Churches have programs for all those different people, but they don't have any way for a depressed single woman without much of a family to get the sort of emotional support she needs. How am I supposed to get their attention?
My mother has told me that she doesn't really think I have any real problem. She thinks that I just refuse to "grow up", and I suspect that her view is one that would be shared by a large number of people. I don't think I could handle having to go to a dozen different churches and being told by all of them that I'm just a selfish, arrogant, manipulative person with no problems before I finally find a church that will actually help me. |
jbkrems
Intermediate Member
Username: jbkrems
Post Number: 287
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.225.167.217
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 5:07 am: |
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j2: You probably don't want to hear this from me, but I'd like to comment on something I see here. Dust, if you don't like what I say, please let me know.
j2, I think you are MATURE enough to admit that you cannot find anyone to help you. I believe that you're honestly saying that, but that you need to keep looking and you need to ALLOW and LET others help you, and minister to you. You need to learn how to receive graciously. I am not trying to criticize you, but rather HELP you get the help you need.
Further, I disagree that just anyone should minister to those who are less fortunate, and that by helping them you end up being filled yourself. That may be a truism for a healthy Christian, but its not true for you, because you can NOT give what you do not have yourself. You should find a church that doesn't have this mindset, but can disciple and minister to your needs. I'm positive somewhere in your area that there is a church that would do that for you.
I would recommend you find a church that has a good singles program (since you are one) and get plugged into that program, just get involved and attend their meetings. Then, when you are ready, make sure that you get ministered to and your special needs met. If you need to, introduce yourself to the singles pastor, and make an appointment for a counseling session with him or her. I'm sure they'd be willing to help you and minister to your needs.
Also, because you admit you're depressed, I want to say this to you. Jesus came to set us free and deliver us from depression, and so I encourage you to get specific ministry for that.
I disagree with your mother (please, no respect to her), because I do believe you have a real problem (you admit that you do by saying you're depressed). But I will be praying for you, that God would lead you to a place (if you truly believe you can receive help) that would minister to you in an appropriate way, and deliver you from your problems into God's marvelous light!
Anyways, those are just my thoughts, and I hope that helps you, j2. I'll be praying for YOU. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 661
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.211.122.182
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 8:03 am: |
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Jessica,
For once I would agree with Krems regarding what your mother has said. I don't read your posts and find someone "refusing to grow up". My oldest daughter is 20, beautiful (don't believe me? I've got pictures!), smart (through three semesters of college she has a 3.92 GPA), and made a commitment to Christ when she was 3 or 4. She has also suffered from depression. Do we pray for her? Absolutely. Do we encourage her to get involved? Definitely. Sometimes you must do in order to be. However, she also sees a psychiatrist and a counselor to talk about what she experiences. She's an overachiever, has mild anxiety disorder (she stresses out easily over things most people would either ignore or just shake off), and is probably overly empathic. So, it can and does happen to "normal" middle-class American "girls next door".
I'm going to send a private email to you at the address on your website. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1139
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:11 am: |
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Jonathan,
That was a good post.
Jessica,
I suffered from depression as early as ten years old. I have that Seasonal Affective Disorder. I have to get OUTSIDE in the sunlight. You may even have a little of this.
You say, "I'm smart, and I'm talented, and I have a middle class background."
Jessica, the GOOD NEWS is that these things aren't what fills us up...only God's love fill us up. And it's available to ALL. You have friends HERE.....who are FULL of God's love. Rely on them....I believe God can do such things even long distance...
I don't think you are selfish at all. I have days I'm just like you (days I don't FEEL anything....I am an artist and when I'm in the zone, DON'T BOTHER ME. I am self-absorbed and 100% in my project. I'm not helping others during these times. No one is a saint. And, even saints have their seasons of "ME"ness....
Could you just throw EVERYTHING you know about our GOD, and start in Genesis, chapter 1. Take in the AWE of creation. Take a look at God's CHARACTER....He breathed life into you.
And, every single person ever born is really completely miserable when minus God's love. We're not built to go it alone!
We all LOVE you on this board...Start HERE. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1787
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.221.192
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:41 am: |
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J2, your mother is wrong, As I read your post in the past, I thought of two things, you have way too many siblings in the family to spread any attention to any of you, especially if you are the youngest one. Second, your parents, probably is similar like mine. But mine is still at worst. I listen to my parents advice but you can put it on the shelves and don't take it to heart.
Get some help. Like MCMStaff, I have a daughter who is about to be 10 in couple of weeks, has anxiety disorder. This can become depression eventually, if it was not caught on. Depression does runs in my family. Both of my parents has it, I experience it twice. My husband experience it twice.
Though both me and my husband got healed by it, my daughter did not get healed from anxiety. I would not sit down and wait for healing, thats foolishess.
My daughter is experiencing Anxiety, I took her to see a child psychiatrist , she takes Prozac. I do not want that to become depression one day.
Go see a psychiatrist. Get a doctor's advice. If needed take some medication if prescribe. The last thing you need is that this becomes full blown. It is impossible to help other people if you are depressed. Depression is a chemical imbalance that affect the mental state. Your miracle could be found on the hands of a doctor. |
j2theperson
Advanced Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 651
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 11:18 pm: |
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I wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to respond (you to JB). I don't really have anything to say, but I wanted you all to know that I have at least read your posts. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.190.108.194
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 4:38 am: |
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J-2 I have a solution to your depression for at least 30 minutes. Watch the show called "The office" on NBC on Thursdays around 8:30 but check your messed up midwestern TV guide, the show grows on you like a wart, give it time you will love it. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1794
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.221.192
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:08 pm: |
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J2 food for thought, when we were suffering from depression, we could not help anybody. It is impossible. People who tried , most of the time will end up hurting other people. |
mcmstaff78
Advanced Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 678
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 9:14 am: |
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Ginger, I would tend to agree with you if one defines "help" only in terms of the psychological or "spiritual". I think too often people get caught up in the thinking that to "minister" to someone is to impart some kind of "spiritual" something to them. However, if we read what our Lord says in the Gospel, when we visit the sick, the imprisoned; when we feed the hungry and clothe the naked - then we are "ministering". I think it can be very helpful to engage in these types of ministry - to work with one's hands and engage oneself in the active meeting of the needs of others. This is God's work and in helping heal others we often find healing for ourselves. |
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