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philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 703
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 4:32 am: | 
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To what extent are we responsible for the authoritarian dysfunction in His People/ EveryNation?
I got an interesting comment from an outside Christian leader who read a bit of FactNet that the FactNet writers were all blaming others for the things that had gone wrong in the organisation. i.e. they all saw themselves as victims rather than considering whether they themselves may have contributed to the dysfunction of the organisation. I realise this is a thorny issue and likely to upset some people, but I think it is worth considering and answering.
The argument is that a tyrant like Paul Daniel was only able to assume god-like authority and get away with his infidelity, abuse of power and consumption of church money because his authority was not sufficiently challenged by other leaders and members in the organisation. To what extent should we have challenged him and other autocrats like him who are still in office? To what extent should we have withheld funds and support, when we saw evidence of authoritarianism? To what extent should we have spoken up against it? To what extent to ordinary members and junior leaders still in the organisation still have a responsibility to do so?
It is a tough question, but I think one really asking us to question our own mistakes and responsibility and to think back to what we should have done. Maybe learn some lessons for the future. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1794
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.146.35.209
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 4:51 am: |
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They did throw you out Philip when you tried to be persistent about various wrongs, right?
That makes you a victim. People give their leaders the benefit of the doubt and think the best about them and believe that is what the bible teaches and that is what God wants it is called LOVE. Then there is the fear that if you don't go along you are bitter, rebellious against God ordained authority, lacking commitment.... Look what happened to Miriam when she was grumbling about Moses? That is how we think. |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 704
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 4:54 am: |
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To give a tentative personal response to the question, I think that retrospectively, I should have spoken up more in favour of governance checks & balances in the organisation at an early stage. My reason for not doing so was because I was young and didn't know much about church governance.
I didn't entirely swallow the theological justification given for the autocratic governance model, but I felt that I was young and that I should defer to other more senior people who understood these things better than I did. In any case, I was not really that interested in church governance but rather on other issues such as revival and reformation of society. When I began encountering outside church leaders who disagreed with the autocratic/apostolic model, I initially just compared the lack of growth in their organisations with the growth of His People and so figured that since God was blessing His People and not them - the His People model was working better. Suppression of information about problems in His People meant that it appeared to have a track record of unbroken success and blessing of God - Who was I to challenge such a successful ministry?
As His People became more and more autocratic, I and other more independently thinking leaders got slowly pushed towards the margins of leadership - being called in if and when we were wanted - and it became harder to get things done. Although I resented this at the time, in reterospect I think this saved me from being sucked fully into the whole dysfunctional system. The realisation that the system of governance was flawed came very slowly as I saw more and more going wrong in the period 2000 to 2004.
As far as wastage of church money was concerned, I did notice Paul Daniel's increasing expenditure on status symbols: big car, expensive house etc. I did not really approve and wondered how much of it was tithe money - but I was told that Paul had other sources of income such as wealthy extended family and later that he may be getting other salaries such as from EveryNation and from a company on whose board he sat. So I did not know at the time this wasted money was coming from our tithes. Anyway, my main interest was fighting abortion and other moral issues, for which I wanted His People's support - so I was not really wanting to cause friction by asking awkward questions about the pastor's salary.
So in reterospect I think I should have challenged things earlier, but these were my reasons for not doing so. Maybe others are going through a similar process and can be helped from what I say here. What I must do however is take some share of the responsibilty for allowing a system to grow increasingly autocratic in the period 1993-1999 from when I first heard of problems to when the time I began challenging them in 2000. By then, things were so out of hand that the organisation was very well defended against my expression of concern. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1795
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.146.35.209
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 4:55 am: |
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People are conditioned to think that way. You have to commit to become a member. The outside leader your talking about blames the victim Philip he is probably 15% right and 85% wrong. |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 705
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:03 am: |
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40 days
Where the issue becomes more complex is in drawing a boundary between victim and perpetrator. In the instance of a seduction, the person seduced is a victim, but they are also at fault in not resisting the seduction.
Probably just about every leader in His People has been seriously hurt by Paul Daniel's behaviour - see for example Bill Bennot's comment on his own thread. That may be true, but the problem is that if everyone just frames themself as a victim, then no one takes any responsibility for their mistakes or the overall dysfunction that results. The question on this thread is to what extent should we (FactNet writers) take responsibility for our mistakes in contributing towards supporting a dysfuntional authoritarian system - that is in turn hurting not just us but many others. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1796
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.146.35.209
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:10 am: |
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I have argued with the Maranatha Tik about this. Rice, Phil, Paul Daniel. Look they say they want to spread the gospel to the world. They decided that God wants them to prosper, they had no problem having poor people give them money and serve them so they could have their own personal mother load, big houses, money, luxury.
I guess JBK would say that is o.k and I like the guy but disagree. EN leaders were suppose to be held to HIRE STANDARDS not the base standards of the world. If these men wanted to live like this they should have never decided to preach the gospel.
I guess I could eat crow on this Philip since if I had my own media ministry and folks were throwing cash at me? I would like to have a big house and luxuries too I would hope I would not have people baby sitting my kids for free and serving me without adequate compensation.
(Message edited by 40days40years on January 31, 2007) |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1329
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.234.107.192
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 8:04 am: |
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Philip, you have some good points. However, is the Christian leader aware of the history and roots of this organization? That at least among the US-based/origined leadership with direct or indirect roots in MCM there is a 30+ year history of what we have been discussing here for just 3-4 years, and that some never were in a "healthy," non-authoritarian church to begin with but were instead "matured" in a cultic/cult-like environment if you want to call it that?
In HP you could make the case that it was at one point a healthy church/movement that went cultic. However, one could also make the case that the US branch didn't start out that way or even never was, particularly those elements with deep MCM roots.
The fact that there are any healthy churches in EN should be the surprise here, imho, since this is ingrained in the spiritual DNA being imparted throughout the organization through its discipleship materials, the Purple Book, ENLI, conferences, and especially through the advanced ministry schools in the US.
I would also wonder what he thinks about Jim Laffoon's To Reach and To Rule sermon, which is pretty representative of at least the US branch of EN's beliefs and modus operandi. |
coppertree
Senior Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.229.144.228
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:15 am: |
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Hi All,
Still visiting, getting over some surgery, so this will be brief, maybe later I can say more. As I see it, being involved since 1977, it is hard to see what is purposely hidden from the new convert, or member. This appears to have happened in many MCM/En churches. There was a concerted effort to hide things from the general population.} |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 706
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 196.25.255.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 2:12 pm: |
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Regards things being hidden, one of the amazing things I found is that I learned more about the problems of the organisation after I left than while I was inside. Somehow while I was inside I was kept in the dark about a lot of the evil, both from people inside the leadership (who were protecting themselves and the work of God) - and ironically from people outside His People who it seems assumed I was one of the leadership and so didn't tell me stuff to avoid offending me. So only after I leave do others start to tell me the problems in the organisation were a hundred times more serious than what I previously imagined. Put together the stories of about thirty different people and you build up a picture of an organisation gone dysfunctional on an international scale. So yes I was very much kept in the dark about a lot of things. |
anti_fascist
Intermediate Member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 110
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.113
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:50 pm: |
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PR:In the instance of a seduction, the person seduced is a victim, but they are also at fault in not resisting the seduction.
A-F: I do hope you do not think in these lines when it comes to non-consensual sex.
But even if not, any study of research written about sociological cults will explain, why it is WRONG to hold the opinion you have advanced.
I still feel that PR is not telling all. On a thread elswhere here, he says, the 'revival' in CT was prayed for by various intercessors over a 5 year period before it happened. WHO were they, and where??
From Robert-unknown's testimony, we have PROOF that His People used Maranatha books on 'firm foundations' inter alia.
PR:but I felt that I was young and that I should defer to other more senior
Mr Rosenthal, you have claimed to have been involved with His People from its inception. Now, for the sake of advancing everybody's understanding, WHO were these 'more' senior people, and where did they come from??
I have a hypothesis that somewhere there is an occult link between WoF/RHema in South Africa and Maranatha. And that Paul Daniel was the young star of the faction in Wof that had become disillusioned with Ray McCauley.
This is only a Hypothesis, but it is significant that Maranatha and Wof combined on WITS campus (Johannesburg) to form His People under Bill Bennot. HMMM |
anti_fascist
Intermediate Member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 112
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.113
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 6:22 pm: |
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Authoritatian leadership in all cults draw on manipulation through fear and guilt.It is this that helps to induce supertitious thought patterns, which inturn,prevents us from questioning unacceptable leadership and teachings.
Also, these abusive things are never presented all at once, always 1 on 1, and in a gradual context. By means of courses, discipling etc. We all know, but do we all realise why we are VICTIMS, and that there is NO excuse for the abusers? (even if they are also victims on a different level)
One of EN's most powerful levers is formatted in their false teaching on 'generational curses' (see the Purple Book) and 'territorial spirits'
See the ENLI programs on spiritual warfare.
I came across this impressive essay by David Stamen that explains why these teachings are heretical and unbiblical.
Please bear with me for posting all three parts, but I do feel that many will benefit from this.
Starting with part 2:http://www.gksa.org.za/kies/Kulte%20inligting/curses_stamen.htm
Part three: http://www.gksa.org.za/kies/Kulte%20inligting/territorial_spirits.htm
Part One:http://www.gksa.org.za/kies/Kulte%20inligting/ancestoral_sins.htm |
philiprosenthal
Advanced Member
Username: philiprosenthal
Post Number: 708
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 198.54.202.250
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 3:01 am: |
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Anti-facist. I will answer some of your questions, but since you don't seem to agree to the Bible as the final authority and engage in a lot of speculation with very little evidence, I don't have time or energy for all your questions.
At the time of the UCT revival we were all in our early teens and 20's, and apart from Paul Daniel only one of us had any theological training. Very soon the organisation grew too big to handle on his own, so he imported various ministers which had a bit more maturity and experience from elsewhere. They had backgrounds from all over the place. He put them into the upper tier of leadership, above the rest of us. This was not hard to accept, because we were very young and they were mostly about 10 or 15 years older than us. Also, many other churches merged with His People and their pastors became our pastors. Pastors were shuffled from one church to another and lost connection with their roots.
I think however that many of these older leaders were never part of the original revival e.g. never attended any prayer meetings. They may have had more maturity in years, but I think maybe some never understood some of the basic issues of revival - and rather just idol worshipped Paul Daniel. From this group were those who covered up Pauls immorality and formed the nucleus of the sociological cult. Later, I think over the years some of the younger student leaders got corrupted into this leadership style.
But there were good older leaders also, who did not sin, but were duped and believed the party line on all sorts of stuff the others were up to.
I am not going to name names here. You can look at the thread on the cover-up for some names. |
xman3
Intermediate Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 178
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 69.89.98.91
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 5:27 pm: |
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Its an interesting topic. I find that several of the posters here who were in higher levels of leadership than myself regret not speaking up. It seems an underlying theme to many stories here is a recognition of problems and a sense of something being wrong, but an inability to put a finger on it and deal with it properly at the time.
There was a lot of pressure to remain loyal and trust the leaders who heard from God so much better than us. Actually, unless one held to the party line, it would have been difficul to ever get to a place in leadership where you could have an effect. Once there, most were deluded into believing and even teaching the same things, even against their own conscience at times.
Some churches allowed dissent in private and gave the appearance of listening, though ultimately not changing. Other churches in EN wouldn't give you the time of day, and would label you as rebellious and dangerous if you spoke up too much. For a peon like myself to actually have a voice with Rice Brooks or Phil Bonnasso was unheard of though.
One would almost have to have lived the experience to realize how difficult it would be in that environment to bring change. An outsider would think we could have done so, and perhaps should have, but an insider knows this was not realistic. Maybe at a small level locally, but certainly not for the juggernaut they think they are as a whole.
PD was surrounded by supporters and co-conspirators. It took repeated significant sin to break the circle, and the whole thing is sickening to me. Those with a voice for truth and integrity were, I'm sure, excluded, or else how could the secrets have been guarded for so long. That's a tough environment to change or have a real voice in. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1148
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 8:38 am: |
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To understand why it's hard to speak up, there are some dynamics that I experienced or observed that seem to be the same dynamics reported here again and again.
As I experienced this church, it is all encapsulating. Your social life, friendships, and major life support are enclosed within the walls of the church. Many members are not "locals" in the area and have no extended family, especially college students. Their is intense peer pressure for performance and an atmosphere of competition and achievement. The personality type most attracted to the ministry and leadership is over achieving and competitive, one who does well in school, in career. This personality type will make a strong commitment wherever they go.
Dynamic: Commited Strong Personalities who "weather" storms and INFLUENCE their peer groups, yet become dependent on the church for thier value, support, role models and friendships.
The heavy commitment to the church then includes several nights a week for prayer meetings, bible study, cell group training, cell group leading and church meetings. Your VALUE and APPROVAL are related to your attendance. Your "fun" and "social life" is also wrapped up in this. Mix in your relationship with God and your spiritual commitment.
Dynamic: Social and Peer Acceptance. Spiritual Measuring.
The MESSAGE at the meetings, whether it be one-to-one discipling, cell groups or leadership or church meetings is constantly and chronically about STAYING PUT. Sermon after sermon after sermon is riddled with a message that if you leave, you will lose God's plan for your life, and you'll be walking out on the spiritual family that GOD has decided for you. So you will be REBELLING against God.
Dynamic: You can't leave or you will risk your relationship with God, perhaps even lose your salvation.
(I actually had this threat from a woman, who suggested that if my husband and I moved out of state and decided to go to a NON EN church, that it was the strategy of the devil and our walk with God would fall apart).
Add to the mix, ENLI, the two-year ministry school, that has a repetitive message of covering, spiritual authority, obedience spiritual giftings, talents, leadership training, and many dynamics to make one feel important and prideful of their church, their pastor, their position, their special STRONGER walk with God.
Dynamic: Trained to follow the leader, NOT Christ.
Mid-to Top Leaders are moved around to different states, maybe different countries. You may be in a foreign land or location, and you are DEPENDENT upon EN for everything. Some of the treatment for top leaders is very good. The church people wash your car, pack and unpack your things, MOVE you free, pick your kids up, clean and babysit. Part of the package includes these perks. You are ISOLATED from NON-EN society, so even when things aren't right, it becomes acceptable and normalized.
Dynamic: Isolation that normalizes things and Personal Benefits that create a feeling of success.
If you are raising support and getting a small salary from Every Nation and have NOT attended seminary or made any contacts in mainstream Christianity, you are financially dependent and if you have children, you are very vulnerable.
Dynamic: Financial Dependence
To be cont. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 9:20 am: |
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The above dynamics makes it very difficult to risk losing favor, as you may be demoted, transferred to another state, another country, or even removed completely. You RISK losing your friendships, your emotional support, your approval, and this is mixed up with your relationship with God, with WHO you are.
In the early days of your time in EN, you will WITNESS what happens to people who question things. You will hear them being talked about negatively and you may see them punished, disciplined, transferred. So, part of what happens is SELF-PRESERVATION.
When a pastor first joins EN, they are often blindsighted into deliverance and told they have evil spirits that have to be delivered. These sessions can last for hours and are often SURPRISE meetings. Once you live through that, you don't want it to happen again, and questioning their authority can bring on a deliverance session.
Not only is it difficult for any individual to question anything, it is impossible to RALLY support. You can't discuss things with anyone else, for fear of being reported. And, there is a mantra in the church, "we are not a democracy." There are no elders to appeal to. And, there is a teaching I forgot to mention. You are to OBEY your spiritual authority EVEN WHEN THEY ARE WRONG, because God will bless YOUR obedience and it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.
Once you decide to question anything, you must be prepared to LEAVE and LOSE everything and by this point it takes a very SECURE person who had had the time or space to HEAR FROM God and walk in confidence in his or her faith. But, remember, they will tell you that YOU don't hear from God. It's the voice of Satan if there are questions, And, they will hear from God for you.
Typically, if one spends any amount of time inside the EN system, perspective is perverted, truth is distorted. It takes LEAVING to be able to see and get the heavy weight off and hear from God and God alone without the voices of men. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1813
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.147.115.171
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 9:32 am: |
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This sounds like Borg to me the only thing I disagree with is I love deliverance sessions. |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:33 am: |
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40/40, I don't know if you are being serious or not, but just so everyone else knows, the deliverance sessions that Dust is describing are not about delivering anyone from anything but about bringing people into (and/or reinforcing) BONDAGE.
Jesus' yoke is easy and His burden is light. Not true of EN's yoke. I'll give EN credit that in most cases they tend not to detract from the gospel. But what they add to it can grind and flatten people to a pulp.
Dust, there's an article in the most recent Cultic Studies Review you may find of interest... somewhat relates to your post, about the dynamics between "cult" leaders and followers. I'll send it to you offlist.
(Message edited by ulyankee on February 02, 2007) |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.221.192
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 12:51 pm: |
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Question, for the leaders to hear God for you. whats the point when Jesus said. My sheep hears my voice ? Whats the point of praying Since God will speak to your leader anyway ?
Whats the point of having a brain when you are not going to used it so as to speak. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2719
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 4:06 pm: |
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Very well thought out dust, and it just confirms that EN is just another (possibly more dangerous) version of MCM. I have some comments on the deliverance thing, and will post on the subthread. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1160
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 11:22 am: |
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Matt, Thanks,
I think this is the language we can possibly reach people with.
Now, don't you wish we would have KNOWN all this stuff before we entered EN?
40, I don't know why you love deliverance sessions. We all need PRAYER. But prayer is not the same as deliverance. We'll pray for you, but I'm not casting out any evil spirits. You don't have any...sorry.... |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 11:57 am: |
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dust said about EN: Not only is it difficult for any individual to question anything, it is impossible to RALLY support. You can't discuss things with anyone else, for fear of being reported. And, there is a mantra in the church, "we are not a democracy." There are no elders to appeal to. And, there is a teaching I forgot to mention. You are to OBEY your spiritual authority EVEN WHEN THEY ARE WRONG, because God will bless YOUR obedience and it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.
40: Well I hate to tell all you EN lurkers out there but that is a perfect description of Maranatha. ----> as far as me not needing deliverance ? (they never could quite get every one of those pesky demon things out of me). One guy I knew who went along with everything and did not question was told by this Rusty fellow you have no demons, not me though even when I was leaving my friend told me it is a demon causing this and I said yeah I agree but I left anyway. Your saying I have been snookered? The devil did'nt make me do it? or at least wear me down till I did something or thought something I was not suppose to? I guess I should then say the sin nature made me do it but that thing is suppose to be gone, buried in baptism. |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 1:33 pm: |
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40, Why don't you give yourself some credit for having common sense? |
genesis_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 112
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 5:35 pm: |
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Deliverance. WHat a crock! The way EN used this was to bond those people being delivered to them (as Dust has said higher up this thread). You feel compelled to tell them about any issues or "character flaws" so that they have this knowledge they can use against you.
For example, John tells Pastor Disaster that 15 years ago he saw a pron magazine half open on a shelf in a book shop. Shock horror!! PS Disaster now affirms that John has the spirit of lust etc in him. You know John, you need to stay with us here so that we can ensure you are protected and kept safe from the spirit which will try to afflict you. You need to be delivered regularly from it in order to have victory.
Now anything John does or wants to do will be viewed by the leaders (all of them now knowing that 15 years ago he saw the corner of the mag even though he felt compelled to only tell one of them) as if he does it through lust. Wow, Jane is a nice girl, I wouldn't mind getting to know her. I am sorry John, your lust is getting the better of you.
The above is obviously just a crazy example but you get the idea about how they take something shared in confidence and totally chain you in bondage and have you doing whatever they want in order to "protect" yourself and attain victory! It is utter crap and spiritual blackmail!
Plus, whatever you speak in confidence to a leader, you may as well have stood up in thw weekly leaders meeting and told them because it gets around just as quickly. The pastors in EN are so nosy and gossipy - they use the excuse of "acting in the best interests of you so that you can have a good, wide covering" |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1167
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 7:41 pm: |
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Genesis, actually the above is not a crazy example. I used to dabble with astrology BEFORE I got saved and thus I had the SPIRIT OF THE ANTI-CHRIST. I'm NOT KIDDING.
There was NO CURRENT BEHAVIOR they were addressing.
The only reason I was there, was that I had asked about WHAT IS a DELIVERANCE MINISTRY? Can I help. I was naive, They said, well in order to HELP, you have to go through it. I said okay, not knowing what I was getting myself into.
I was left feeling a lot of SHAME and I went into a depression for about three weeks because the experience was traumatizing. I was forced to confess all the sins of my life prior to salvation and marriage in front of my husband. This was INSANE.
P.S. When we went to the foundations class, I did NOT speak in tongues. They said, I had a DEAF and DUMB SPIRIT.
I'm sure you're getting a laugh out of that one! |
genesis_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 113
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 8:16 pm: |
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Deaf and dumb spirit!!! That is a good one.
We had a Bible scholar (I can't remember his name) and by the end of the weekend (that everyone was pressured to fork up money for and attend) I was left wondering if I was a christian!! The whole weekend was reinforcing the fact that only if you were baptised in the spirit and could speak in tongues could you be useful to God and involved in ministry. I wasn't sure if I had been or not and I couldn't speak in tongues.
Suddenly I felt totally inadequate and useless and wondered if I was saved. I remember feeling so ashamed and scared of asking a leader about whether they thought I was saved and what should I do about it.
Still to this day I have no idea if I was baptised in the Holy Spirit but I know I am saved. I did a study on the assurance of salvation a little while back and it resonated in my spirit and reasurred me of my salvation.
My worry is this, how many other people felt like I did? And the ones that did speak up, what did the leaders say to them? Did they compell them into some sort of experience or did they reassure them and say that to serve God with all your heart and to love Jesus and proclaim Him was what it means to be saved - to know in the depths of your heart that you could not deny Him even under pain of death - not by tongues, not by bein slain, and not by works. It is by faith we have been saved, through grace and that is not our own but it belongs to the Lord God Almighty. Amen.
Praise God that He has made the rules and not men. I pray that we can all listen to His wisdom in our hearts all the time. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2739
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 8:26 pm: |
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dust: They said, I had a DEAF and DUMB SPIRIT.
Now if you would have gotten with my buddy who had the boring spirit, that would have been quite a super bowl party. 
genesis: The pastors in EN are so nosy and gossipy - they use the excuse of "acting in the best interests of you so that you can have a good, wide covering"
This is another thing that I didn't see until much later...these folks (including myself) were not professionals. I know...there is this 'calling' thing into the ministry. I now believe if you are called, then get some kind of education to go with everything that is involved in managing a church.
The idea of the gossipy culture of so many churches, not just EN, is the fact that there is no professionalism in many self appointed preachers. Many of them don't even seem to understand basic secular ethics that exist in professional occupations.
I have a code of ethics on my job in dealing with issues of confidentiality. This crosses many professions, not just counseling and ministry. I can lose my job by violating that trust. There is no such respect by these self loving religious hypocrites. It is the sheer lack of professional training, and subsequent arrogance and pride that tells them that they don't need it that leads to things like these stupid deliverance sessions.
What they made you confess was atrocious, dust, and speaks of the worst kind of humiliation. I am sorry for what you had to endure.  |
genesis_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: genesis_truth
Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 203.96.117.58
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 10:04 pm: |
|
You make a good point regarding the training. I remember a friend of mine (someone I respected a lot because of his knowledge of life, bible and theology) said to me once, "Some of the most dangerous people are christian counselors." Not Christians who work as counselors but rather who specifically operate without regard to proper training and ethics. The take their training from the bible or from bible college and have not learned from properly trained counselors.
Picking up on what Matt said regarding Dust being forced to confess. It is like that. Sometimes at meetings you sit there and there is pressure to think of something to confess to make it look like you are not trying to hide anything or be proud or anything stupid like that. It is just crazy the hold they have over you.
I changed jobs earlier in the year and I was wondering whether I should ask them if it was okay and what they thought I should do!!! What the heck is that? Also the same thing when we moved house!! I just needed to realise that these were decisions that we needed to make ourselves (my wife and I) and not anything that EN should have any say over. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2741
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 10:35 pm: |
|
these were decisions that we needed to make ourselves
It is nice to hear you have come to this conclusion. You will find in time that it will never even cross your mind to feel any need to ask permission, except from our Gracious God, of course. I have enjoyed reading both of your posts, and am excited for the wonderful things He has in store for your lives! |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:06 am: |
|
Matt, My very thoughts. Where is the code of ethics that is in place in the secular world of counseling and social service? Where is the training?
The ENLI second year course called Biblical Counseling course did not teach anything about counseling. It was strictly HOW TO CAST OUT DEMONS. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2755
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 4:24 pm: |
|
Where is the training?
In my particular discipline, it has been incorporated into the curriculum, and almost all higher level degree programs in our field now require a CRC (Certified Rehab Counselor) certificate. Here
is an overview, and one of the professional organizations we are involved in. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2756
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 4:34 pm: |
|
Oh, the actual document is called the "CRCC Code of Professional Ethics for Rehabilitation Counselors." It can be downloaded on line, but it is rather long.
I'm sitting here thinking....I studied this stuff in 1978, and then the MCM gossip machine polluted me! Ironic that the secular standards mean more to me now than anything they 'taught' me! |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1342
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 6:14 pm: |
|
dust, I don't know when you took VLI but I have VLI-Bethel notes revised May 2003 which documents what you said in your post.
Here are some questions from the final exam, most of which also dealt with casting out demons, curses, and demonic activity:
quote:What are 4 ways to tell that a demon is out? (4 points each)
quote:What are the seven steps in breaking a curse? (1 point each)
One of the qualifications for effective "biblical counseling" is that one be:
quote:Under church covering
1. Official membership in a local church
2. A submissive spirit
|
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1808
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 6:56 pm: |
|
I don't think the demon ever leave in EN. Remember Leo Lawson, people were trained to cast demon and send it to a box in the room. I think they left the demon box somewhere in EN storage. AND it got out , invited 7 more. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2762
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:25 pm: |
|
 Lawdy, Ginger! You think that might have been the "lock box" that Al Gore used to talk about?
Uly, I missed all those lectures in my classes at Auburn U. |
anti_fascist
Intermediate Member
Username: anti_fascist
Post Number: 127
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 80.119.65.113
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:54 pm: |
|
Frightening stuff here.
And then His People/EN wants to tell us africans that we do witchcraft...
Frankly, ENLI sounds like Harry Potter at Hogswart academy! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1810
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 8:51 pm: |
|
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sameo
Advanced Member
Username: sameo
Post Number: 971
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.140.253.49
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:48 pm: |
|
Please tell me you are kidding about the demon box? there reeeeally was a demon box???
Ah, mannnn!!!!!!!!!!! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1811
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:23 am: |
|
Yea !
Leo Lawson had a demon box in the room. And taught those kids to cast out demons and send it to the box. This is VCM of course. I don't know if he taught that in ENLI or VLI.
I believe his scriptures based is when Jesus send those demons to the pigs.
Matt, I think Leo biggest mistake was he went cheap, he should have gotten a box with a lock not the one they sold at Office depot with a lid.
Now, those demons have been inviting 7 more everytime they put them in boxes. Probably by the thousands by now, thats why PV is so messed up. They escaped once Leo put them in storage LOL !
Or probably left them in the classroom. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1812
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:27 am: |
|
By the way, if you love your dog, he would have cast out some inordinate affection off you because you love your dog. I do wonder which demon he conjure up on that one. Lust on the dog ?
Dust - yea EN has gotten worst. They had a demon boxes in EN MCM did not have one, probably a hobby of collecting demon boxes LOL !
They cast out of anything. Love for a cat ? Lust on a cat ?
(Message edited by ginger1 on February 06, 2007) |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 11:26 am: |
|
quote:By the way, if you love your dog, he would have cast out some inordinate affection off you because you love your dog. I do wonder which demon he conjure up on that one. Lust on the dog ?
That's one of the ones I have on tape. It was called inordinate affection for animals.
Lesson: Don't talk all goofy to your dog or let him/her lick you on the face OR ELSE. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1818
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 11:32 am: |
|
God forbid if a man start talking goofy to their kid's pet bunnies. It might "poof" become a Playboy bunny LOL !
Wives, have your man stay away from bunnies !! |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2774
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 11:51 am: |
|
This stuff is killin me. Sorry JB for the bad confession. I'm gonna go check Allie's jewelry box for a playboy bunny.
Uly, all I can say is you have to laugh at it, if not, you would be crying. And A-F, I agree...we westerners walk around all sophisticated and look down on the 'third world' and yet stuff like this comes to light. What a hoot! Sounds like something we did with a Ouija Board when I was 12. Dang! Why did I tell you all that? Now you gotta send that Ouija spirit to the Leolockbox! |
ulyankee
Senior Member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 11:57 am: |
|
ginger, maybe they pulled those bankers boxes out of the closet or wherever to pack up and move everything to Nashville, demons and all.
Matt, most days that's exactly my response, for exactly that reason. I cry when I remember that even though I'm free, there are so many people still caught up in this mess. Hence why I'm still here 3 years later. |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1819
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
|
hmmm trying to visualize bunny to a playboy bunny... how do men do it ? Where is 40/40 when I need him ? Hey Matt, how's the Playboy in Allie's jewelry box doing ?
Ulyankee, I think you are right, see, Bethel start to fall apart when those demon boxes was sent to Nashville.
Those Bethel Leaders were not trained to become Ghost Busters. Sent Leo lawson back !!! They need him !!! This time, don't go cheap , buy those boxes with locks !! |
ginger1
Senior Member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 1820
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.216.137
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:14 pm: |
|
I will be back later, I had to find some bunny pictures and burn them. I am not taking any chances them with my hubby. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 1:43 pm: |
|
Matt, how's the Playboy in Allie's jewelry box doing ?
That would be Playboy bunny. She knows I am the Playboy. Back to the nest for me!!!! |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 2:37 pm: |
|
They did talk about someone have a CHOCOLATE demon. I'm not kidding.
Now I like Broccolli a lot and I eat it three times a week. If Forword didn't like broccoli, I guess he would have me delivered of the broccoli demon. HAHAHAHAHAHA
And I have the talk radio demon. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The American Idol Demon?
The Factnet can't stop posting demon,. HAHAHAHAHA
The "I'm laughing at my own jokes demon." HAHAHAHAHA |
dust
Senior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 2:38 pm: |
|
How about the turning serious thread "cuckoo" demon.
I'll see you in the nest. |
youngnmighty
New member
Username: youngnmighty
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 155.232.128.10
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 7:36 am: |
|
One of the main strategies which these churches use is to TRIVIALISE or EXCEPTIONALISE people's negative experiences.
So they say - you're NOT A VICTIM, you're OFFENDED WITH THE TRUTH, get over it.
By doing this they exceptionalise cases by making it seem that there is no PATTERN of abuse, but that individuals leave for different reasons, denying the root that the CHURCH ITSELF IS THE PROBLEM.
I feel that YOUNG people who are drawn into these churches are not entirely to blame. Young people are impressionable, easy to manipulate and succumb to group pressure pretty easy. They dont much experience of life to help them see if the church they are attending displays fascist tendencies. Also, young people are looking for affirmation, looking for role models, defining their life paths.
so i cant blame a young person for not knowing better.
but also, as you grow into that church, you should be able to allow basic human principles such as COMPASSION, TRUTH, HUMILITY, LOVE FOR PEOPLE, OPENNESS guide you.
I think people over the age of 14 even, who choose to stay in these churches even AFTER they see that people are being hurt, abused, manipulated are part of their own oppression.
I was part of my own oppression. Although i was young, i wasnt an idiot. I saw that it was wrong and chose to stay despite. I know a young woman who came for a little while, smelt a rat and never went back.
She made a different choice, a better choice.
So yes, if you stay in these places after realising that there is something wrong YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. |
osakadan
Junior Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.3.206
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:02 am: |
|
So much of your postresonates with me YM! People aren't to blame as such. Many of us did not have the wisdom or experience to really know what was happening.
I think people over the age of 14 even, who choose to stay in these churches even AFTER they see that people are being hurt, abused, manipulated are part of their own oppression.
I don't know what the cut off point is but I do believe at some time we become complicit in the abuse that happens to it. When we consiously recognize the abuse etc but decide to stay on we are complicit. It doesn't excuse away the abuse but acknowledgement that we knew what was happening puts some onus on us (in my eyes at least). |
ginger1
New member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 17
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.91
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:18 am: |
|
My husband saw that it was wrong from the very beginning but decided to keep his mouth shut. I did not see it till years later. Thats when I made the decision to leave MSI. |
osakadan
Junior Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.3.206
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:26 am: |
|
Interesting Ginger. Understand why Ariss didn't say anything but do wish he had? |
ginger1
New member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.91
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 8:58 am: |
|
It was due to loyalty. Thats why Aris did not say anything. He was discipled by people in Maranatha. I was not. They taught "loyalty" pretty strong. He did speak out everytime I made a decision to leave a church. He does not like the idea of changing churches. From Dave Soto to Garry Senna. He is glad though after everytime we left and start attending a new church. |
osakadan
Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 51
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.3.206
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:08 am: |
|
Ginger, Please take this question in the spirit it is intended - an exploration of the topic of responsibility and not an attack or judgement.
Given that Aris had MCM experience, and to some degree knew what was happening in EN, does he bear some responsibility (despite the loyalty factor) for not having spoken out?
And seperately, do you wish he had talked to you about his misgivings about EN?
Feel free to ignore the questions. Again they aren't intended to place blame but to simply explore the topic of reponsibility. |
ginger1
New member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.91
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:20 am: |
|
I did ask Aris once why he did not tell me about the control issues in regards to Phil Bonasso. he just simply shrug off " I don't know". I don't think he ever thought that far about that responsibility factor. He does now blame the inner circle that the church created. Aris never "fit in" . It was when we got out when he started seeing the bigger picture. Back then he only saw the "control" problem.
Aris did not want to talk about the abuse and control for several years. Even when we left , He still think these people are the "anointed" ones. And we should not speak against them. What broke the ice between us two is when I showed him Phil Bonasso stealing, his mortgage , church building equity disappeared. And that just happened less than 2 years ago. I have been speaking out since 2000. |
ginger1
New member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.91
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:28 am: |
|
He now does talk about his misgiving of EN. He talks about how he felt insecure that he could never fit in. Once there was a men's meeting. The leaders in the church this inlcudes Jim lafoon and Phil Bonasso would start calling the men's name and these men would run to the front. Phil Bonasso and Jim lafoon would declare they are now "men" of God. Now, my husband thinking back those men that Phil and Jim called were men who were sucking up to them. One of the men who was called was caught in adultery a few years later. The other because of intense insecurity has misuse their finances buying luxurious non essential items. Just to keep up with the inner circle.
Now, Aris is glad he did not fit in or we would have been suck into it. We would have gone into deep debt like some of them. |
osakadan
Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 54
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.3.206
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:37 am: |
|
Thanks for the candor Ginger.
I know that I put off leaving, even though I knew things were rotten, because of fear.
hAve recently been mailing an old MCM friend. Not sure he can ever be totally honest with me or himself about that time as in many ways he still views those as some of the best times in his life.
Years after it happened, I tried to tell him of something I saw. The guy was basically a hero of my friend. While he didn't say it outright, I knew he didn't believe what I saw. His denial of my experience basically came down to him not wanting to destroy beliefs (in people and a sysytem) he held for many years.
This friend was in from '84 until the bitter end and I don't doubt he has his own list of negative experiences but he has never shared them. Is he guilty of participating in his own abuse (or if he does not recognize the abuse, is it legitimate)?
Would we ask these questions of child abuse victims, spousal abuse etc etc? Should we even be asking these questions of ourselves (even though I do believe I was complicit from a certain point)?
Anyway, just thinking aloud people, no need to respond. Probably better left unanswered. |
dust
Junior Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 9:58 am: |
|
This is quite a loaded topic.
EN works (IMHO) the pysychological manipulation, common to cult, quite professionally. They play a numbers game, knowing that most likely people who are already grounded in the word (truth), are psychologically healthy, have established social support, are less likely to remain.
Young people who get SAVED inside of Every Nation, and then educated in EN's selected scriptures, rely upon EN for social support, are more likely to remain. They put these young people immediately into a social structure.
Private Discipler
Cell Group/Life Group
Promise of Destiny
Deliverance
ENLI
Social Group
Nashville area has at least 30,000 college students. Every Nation attracts in maybe 300 of these. They then place as many as they can on the ministry team and hook them into "recruiting."
They look for their future leaders from this group.
As far as more mature couples, it was my husband who was the first to want to leave. He never really bought into any of it. The difference between him and I is that he was established in the faith from childhood, and I was still a fairly new believer and at the time did NOT really know the bible.
My VULNERABILITIES drew me and kept me:
Shame based personality issues
Sharpie type attributes which when stroked made me feell good
NEW believer, not grounded and hungry for education
New to area, no social support or family
Strong calling to service
Tendency to do everything with fervor at 100 miles an hour
MY Husband:
Grounded in his faith
Grounded in Word
Secure in his career
Little need for social extension
So while he traveled a lot, I was home drinking koolaid and serving it out to as many as I could, because I bought into the "win the lost" mentality, and We are the BEST church who really "gets" it, etc.
When I started having questions, my shame based personality felt guilty, and I believed if I just TRIED HARDER and had a never quit attitude, God would bless me...etc. I think also a part of me believed I needed to be "TESTED" because I was saved LATER in life way past the average age of 21, and lived a long life of sin, and never felt quite good enough. People were always bragging about being saved since age 4 (Jim Lafoon) and I would feel a lot of shame. So to be able to turn around and walk out the door wasn't something I could do.
Forword was for years saying, We should leave. Me, I'm sayng No, this is our church. So, he would pray that I would want to leave. I would pray for him to want to stay. THANK HEAVENS it never affected our marriage, except we would fight a lot on Sundays in the last year.
Responsibillity
I FULLY own that my own issues made it more likely for me to be attracted and firmly planted in EN. My faith was always pure and God protected that with His grace. But, I've come to see that I had some issues to work out regarding shame, insecurity and control.
This doesn't excuse EN...and I think it would have been sweeter to spend my early Christian days in a more loving, godly atmosphere. However, I am stronger in my faith, meeker in my application, more humble, and more full of grace for others because of EN. More long suffering, more patience, and much more grounded in the Word, at least I hope I am these things.
I also learned to trust my husband more.
HIS VULNERABIITY: He felt guilty that when we married, I had to leave California and the church I was saved in and loved. So he was reluctant to pull me from yet another church I loved. (although unhealthy.) |
ginger1
New member
Username: ginger1
Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 75.36.217.91
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 10:12 am: |
|
I never bought into the bragging of I got born again since 4. Jesus once ask, who do you think would love me more ? the ones who was forgiven more or the ones who were forgiven less ? The answer who would have been forgiven more. So to be born again at 4 , that means he(Jim Lafoon) sinned less and he does not love God as much as I do since I got born again at 18 . Thats my logic LOL ! |
15_tulip
New member
Username: 15_tulip
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 129.115.146.77
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:00 pm: |
|
Dust,
That was a very insightful post. Thank you.
BTW, how was Jim Laffoon saved outside of MCM?
Ginger - love your logic. Unfortunately I was saved at an early age (not really sure when as I think God always had a hand on my life) Although that probably shows why I always have trouble singing songs like "All to Jesus, I surrender," because as an ideal its really nice, but as a reality its a lie (for me). At one point I at least wondered whether to remain a Christian when I knew I could never honestly own those words. If only God had waited until I was older to call me, then maybe I would be able to live those words. |
onevoice
New member
Username: onevoice
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 76.104.6.181
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 10:40 pm: |
|
I think the most important thing for us to internalize is not whether it was our responsibility then, but what our responsibility is now. What would you do if your current church started to do one or several of the ungodly, self-serving things you've listed about EN? A lot of good-intentioned churches spend too much money on things that don't matter. And a Christian mentor/counselor CAN be a really healthy thing. Most churches that I've seen with people who are passionate about Jesus will provide an opportunity for a leader to take advantage of the followers in some way. In a lot of cases, the damage is minimal or isolated and the overall good of the other ministers outweighs the bad. So what do you do other than protect yourself from the bad?
I have been a Christian since I was 4, but had seen enough church-caused abuse in my life to leave my previously-healthy church at the ripe old age of 23, shortly after it joined EN. I recognized the pattern. I regularly run into people still in it. I don't say much, but just politely answer their not-polite-enough questioning about how I'm doing now. But what should I say? What do we do? What is our responsibility now? Your current stories are going to be theirs in about 5 or 10 years and they don't know enough to see it coming. |
osakadan
Member
Username: osakadan
Post Number: 60
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 58.190.3.206
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 7:05 am: |
|
I think the most important thing for us to internalize is not whether it was our responsibility then, but what our responsibility is now.
I undertand what you are saying one voice but I don't think it is the whole story.
HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF
There is a reason why cliches are so repeated. Unless we come to an understanding of why something happened we cannot move on or learn the lesson we need.
That is why we need a full understanding of what led us to MCM/EN, and why many of us chose to stay even when we knew it was unhealthy. Without each person understand their own history in this regard I doubt their ability to truly understand their current situation. |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 52
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:25 am: |
|
I am with Osakadan....it's good to realize our own "hooks" into EN...because we all have our issues...
Onevoice: Your current stories are going to be theirs in about 5 or 10 years and they don't know enough to see it coming.
When I was in the EN church, there was no factnet and I had no way to cross reference and/or investigate what I was committed to. That's a bit different now and the "stories" shared here are helping people get that view. I tell my story here again, hoping that readers may perphaps recognize, relate and be able to make their own healthy decisions. It is nearly impossible to get a clear perspective while inside.
Jesus summed up our commandments as follows:
Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love others as ourselves.
The "fault line" of EN can be found inside those commandments, but as simple as they are, God's WHOLE TRUTH will bring a balanced understanding of what loving God means. For example, loving God is not giving your loyalty to men superceding the values and virtue of God.
It takes wisdom and experience to navigate life within the Christian church and its tens of thousands of denominations and varying belief systems. The pain of spiritual abuse is heavy.
The first step is to HEAL and this take time.
This also may mean TRUSTING GOD with your life again.
The second step for some might be figuring out how to allow that regained trust to prosper.
By this I mean, how can we grow from the experience? Issues of shame, trust, control, pride, abuse history, molestation, etc. that may have been buried so deep, one didn't know it affected their adult decisions. God can and does want to heal us to our deepest parts.
The third step might be to seek God in building HIS kingdom HIS way......and this can ONLY be defined by the one true head of the CHURCH, Jesus Christ, and each person is a part of the body as God decides, and we are to seek GOD's direction in this, and not man's direction. Even this, takes confidence in God, and is another part of the healing process.
Please note, this is in no way the ANSWER above all answers, or even a guide book....and although sounds linear...it really doesn't happen in any straight line for most people. Healing from religious hurt and being restored is much more a zig zag with quite a few dips into depression, anger, confusion, and despair, but I still have hope in the soverignty and GRACE of our GREAT GOD
Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. |
ulyankee
New member
Username: ulyankee
Post Number: 18
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 130.70.157.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:46 am: |
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onevoice, wow, thanks so much for posting.
quote:but had seen enough church-caused abuse in my life to leave my previously-healthy church at the ripe old age of 23, shortly after it joined EN. I recognized the pattern. I regularly run into people still in it. I don't say much, but just politely answer their not-polite-enough questioning about how I'm doing now. But what should I say? What do we do? What is our responsibility now? Your current stories are going to be theirs in about 5 or 10 years and they don't know enough to see it coming.
Simply telling our stories may mean so much, so they can see it coming. Some people will respond to empirical, factual evidence; others to stories. Both are important.
Also, I believe the truth will resonate in our hearts in some way whether we are ready to hear or accept it or not. Maybe not right away. I know of people who have come on FACTNet with all their guns blazing protecting their churches, EN and its leaders, and then months or even years later start to question. Or as happens more often, admit there are issues but think they're not really that bad. Some people may find it hard to believe, but even I defended EN when I first started posting a little over 3 years ago. My first posts here defended MSI's (EN's old name) discipleship practices as "moderated" when compared to MCM. Sound familiar--like something from EN's website?
My responsibility is to keep plugging away, keep talking about the truth, even if it's like the elephant in the living room that no one wants to admit is there. I also have to remember to be loving, considerate, and patient with those who defend EN. If there wasn't something to defend, then they wouldn't be doing it. As I've said several times before, poison is seldom served straight up, or else who would choose to take it?
BTW, there is much that attracts people to EN and its ministries that give people a sense of purpose. People from time immemorial have been searching for meaning, for purpose, for "destiny." EN gives it to them on a silver platter. And while it's close to the Gospel message it's the Gospel with strings attached, which lead later on to shackles and chains. So it's not really the Gospel because it doesn't lead to freedom but bondage.
I believe that EN is a church/ministry organization that is run by a cult. I don't think that it is a cult through and through, or that all the churches/ministries or leaders in EN are cultic. But the further one moves up the prestige/power/authority pyramid, the more likely one is to be inculcated and then incorporated into the cult.
This cult uses EN churches and ministries to:
--support themselves in the matter to which they have become accustomed (lavish lifestyles)
--leverage themselves into positions of power, influence, and authority (ego, pride)
--support their larger agenda even if most rank and file don't have a clue what it is (To Reach and To Rule)
--attract gifted, talented, influential, intelligent, attractive, charismatic, prosperous people who will surround them and support them
--recruit the most promising and/or impressionable into the cult through progressive EN training and discipleship--the further in you go, the more you are exposed, desensitized, and then inculcated into the beliefs and worldview of the cult group.
And as you have seen first hand onevoice, eventually even healthy churches in EN risk becoming unhealthy, if not outright cultic, because that is EN's spiritual DNA, inherited from its leaders most of whom came of age in a bonafide cult (MCM) or are/were directly discipled by those in the cult.
I am not a victim. Just as I praise God that He led me out of EN, I also praise God for leading me to EN because I would not know what I know now if it weren't for my (thankfully brief) stint in EN. And I hope and pray that I am using it to help others.
(Message edited by ulyankee on May 09, 2007) |
dust
Member
Username: dust
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 68.52.214.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:33 pm: |
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Ulyankee,
Great added perspective here. And such a lovely example of the different parts of the body working together. Some tell stories, some bring researched facts....and one of the most important things to get is that there is some truth served up in EN, and not to throw that away, but to separate out what is light, what is dark and not allow complete cynicism to steal away the truth. |
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