| Author | Message | ||
     seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
When is it time to run? 1. Does the church teach and preach anything other than salvation by grace? If the church you know or attend or are considering teaches any other form of salvation or path to salvation than the message of New Testament grace....RUN 2. Does the church or group require a period of indoctrination? If you are required to go through a process just to be a part of or participate in the worship service..... RUN 3. Do they put an unusual amount of emphasis on submitting to their authority? If you hear the authority message or suggestions that you allow them to help you make you’re every day life decisions.....RUN 4. Do they have an unusual amount of their own writings? If they spend more time studying and discussing and distributing their writings rather than the Bible....RUN 5. Is there a strong leader who is admired with a fervent devotion? If they have one person who ‘has a unique ability to bring God’s message’ or if church is cancelled because this one person cannot attend......RUN 6. Do they separate themselves from all other churches and suggest they are ‘chosen’? If your church suggests they are unique or they are above most others due to being ‘special’.......RUN 7. Do they practice shunning or any form of punishment for those that leave their church? If your church suggests that leaving their group will be met with dishonor and disassociation......RUN You don't need to fit all these. If a church has ANY of these features.....RUN AWAY as fast as you can before you become a victim. PLEASE I’m sure there are other signs and reasons to RUN. I welcome others to add to this list. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 928 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
S_G, "other than salvation by grace" Wow. I stopped at the very first one. First, this is a parroting of the Watchman view, how uses it to accuse oneness and others of heresy. Their phrase, used to attack all oneness as cults, heresy, doctrine of demons. "cult's false gospel of works as opposed to grace" If you go by the 'accusation' that would mean you would have to *run* from every oneness ministry because they are always 'accused' of preaching other than salvation by grace. As are many, many others. You would be attacking the early church writers as well, when they taught holiness it would be a cult gospel. Oh, preachers like Charles Spurgeon, oopss... perserverance of the saints, salvation by works. Even A. W. Pink and Charles Calvin (!) are accused by some on this issue. Oh, and don't forget to especially (snip) James and Revelation out of your Bible. You would probably eliminate every charismatic, Mennonite/Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Wesleyan, CoC and tons of other churches from being graced by your attendance. "Seeking_glory" is also condemning the ministry of Mrs. Alvear, the preacher of a works salvation, per the Watchman/"Glory" view. Maybe you should list the truly acceptable churches here .. ___________________________ ___________________________ Please don't forget to include Pastorette F_H and your Factoid Fellowship of None, dispensing its 'truth' to any it can confuse. Here is an article for consideration of the sad state of the modern 'church'. http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/pdf/salvation-by-works.pdf Salvation By Works In the last 150 years, the evidence for eternal life has been reduced from a changed life to merely using the name of Jesus in a rote prayer. Charles G. Finney originated the heresy; D.L. Moody perpetuated it; and Billy Graham popularized it. Those appalled at the doctrine of these heretics call it decisional salvation, easy-believism, and fire insurance. They watch as “converts” rush back to the world without any evidence at all of grace in their lives... their preaching has devastated Bible Christianity. Their “converts” live like the world and presume on salvation by a cheap decision for heaven. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1784 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.182 |
This not my wife this Brother Alvear. MR Praxaluh you write your Yahshua doctrine You know nothing about my church. NO I not believe like waco cult believe. Yes I believe in one God and many people believe in one God. I tell people here what my church believe you do not know. My church do not judge days, kick out people, mess up families, pressure my people, my church not teach we know special hid doctrine and we must live in woods...I do not know your english words but i do know cult...I tell my wife that place cult...she say pray with them I say no and do not go to special elder prayer on sunday morning. I never like that place my wife like many things like soap plants but i tell my wife these people not right...not right at all. I hear screaming...I see mistreats, I see many wrong things but I stay because my wife love sister roxie...I man...I see why sister roxie go there...no other place...but I too love her be good to her but not accept devilish doctrine. My daddy uncles and brothers all were ministers never see no one in my family treat members like Waco. No you do not know what I teach. Please tell what you KNOW...not what you hear. Thank you. brother alvear | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1785 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.24.182 |
and I sorry not speak your language well. My language Spanish then Portuguese and some English and other languages. Sorry. brother Alvear | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 930 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Mr. Alvear, I realize that you were very hostile to HH and looked at it negatively, as here ('cult, devilish doctrine'). The saddest part of what you write is your misrepresentation of the dear sister in HH. She even wrote you a beautiful letter reminding you and sharing with you of her testimony and what brought her to HH and you trample it underfoot in anger. What you do to avoid listening and hearing is simply not right. You would do much better to not attack her and simply listen to what she shared with you and leave it at that, even if you do not understand, even if you do not accept or agree. As for the thread above, is it not true that many other churches accuse you of 'salvation by works' as they do all oneness churches here in the USA ? Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 988 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.106.179.121 |
1. Does the church teach and preach anything other than salvation by grace? The fact that the "salvation by grace" phrase is so offensive to Prax is very telling. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 933 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Nope. I find the phrase 'salvation by grace' beautiful and wonderful and Biblical. What is offensive is that holiness and pure living is considered as in opposition to 'salvation by grace'. And efficacious water baptism. And community and ministry. And sound doctrine. Please feel free to share substantively with the discussion above. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 498 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.78 |
Very telling. Prax is jumping to the ditch on the other side of the road. Salvation by grace is not a license to sin. There are some who believe it is and they do not know Jesus. When Christ is in us we become a new creature. He changes our hearts and puts His Word, His New Covenant, in us. Anyone who does not know and believe in the saving power and the life changing power of Jesus Christ is not believing in the Jesus of the New Testament. They are believing in some wimp of a God who has no power and powerless blood that can not save fallen man. Just because there are people out there who call grace a license to sin, does not mean that is what grace is. You don't hide in a ditch of legalism trying to avoid the trap of the ditch of "license to sin" people. Jesus warned of TWO types of false teachers, those who would say live in the flesh and it's ok, and those who would say live by laws to save yourself. Neither of these groups are walking in the Spirit that Christ gives to a saved believer. Neither group believes in the power of the Spirit and the blood of Jesus to change lives. Neither have Jesus as Lord. One is controlled by the flesh, the other by laws, (still flesh.) I personally don't believe the groups Prax mentioned above have chosen either ditch. Some may have standards, but they do not believe keeping those standards save them. HH does not fall in with them. They do not believe these people are saved. HH believes you must submit to a tangible Jesus and his commands to be saved. They believe you are saved by your participation in the current sacrificial body of Christ. It is another Jesus altogether. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 936 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, As I said, feel free to respond substantively. All of those groups and speakers are accused in the same way that you are accusing HH. If your objection is instead to the "Jesus come in the flesh" scriptures and doctrine and exegesis, then that is what you should say, rather than err as was done above. Oh course we all know what group puts forth that they have the perfect balance of faith, grace, holiness and everything else. Pastorette F_H and her Ethereal Factoid Fellowship of None. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 499 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.78 |
A person who is truly saved by Grace will desire to live a Holy Life and will have the power to do so. He might still sin, but not wish to, and will experience real repentance and a desire and power to change along with forgiveness. He will grow and mature, with encouragement from the body and the power of the Holy Spirit, but He is saved from the day he first believed. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 500 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.78 |
Holiness is a result of salvation. To say being saved by grace results in un-holiness in hypocrisy. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 937 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Thank you for the sharing from the Potshot Fellowship, Pastorette. We can leave the exegetical questions aside for now. Please, let us see the fruits, where this maturity is manifest, where there is deep sincerity and dedication and service one to another, as Jesus says will be among his disciples. John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Last I know you had the 'Appalachian Village Catholic & Protestants Together General Community Ecumenical' example for us to follow - Anything new since ? Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 938 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
F_H, please. Use elementary logic. Clearly I did not say that 'salvation by grace' leads to unholiness. In fact, true Biblical 'salvation by grace' must include holiness. The objection was to the false construct above, the OSAS-ish attempts, that are used to try to separate out God's grace as a distinct entity (e.g. the decisional salvation movement) from God's New Testament patterns and His requirements for us to be holy unto the Lord. These are actually Biblically inseparable. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| wise_as_a_serpent Junior Member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Praxaluh: I believe I noted in another thread that you descry the incivility of posters who are anti-Homestead Heritage, yet it is you and Daniel who have a propensity to calling the other posters name. I have seen somebody call you "cult hugger", I believe. This is wrong and they should apologize. Calling other posters name is, well, simply childish. A couple of examples in this post: Praxaluh: 'Appalachian Village Catholic & Protestants Together General Community Ecumenical' Praxaluh: Pastorette F_H and her Ethereal Factoid Fellowship of None. Praxaluh: Thank you for the sharing from the Potshot Fellowship, Pastorette. Do you really feel that helps the debate? Does it bring civility? Does it accrue to or distract from the substance of what you are trying to explain? Or is it used in hopes to discredit the poster? If the poster’s issues are without merit, simply refuting them is all that is needed. Examples of Daniel’s can be found in the Reality thread. If truth and righteous is on your side, why do you resort to argumentum ad hominem? | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
If truth and righteous is on your side, why do you resort to argumentum ad hominem? I haven't been on this board for very long, but I've always said that the name-calling on both sides is simply childish and wrong. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1786 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.131.208 |
My husband told me what he wrote the best he could for he is not American and English is not his native language. My husband comes from a family of preachers. His father established many churches in Chile...his uncles and all his brothers are pastors. His nephew is a pastor. So I would think even though he may not know how to express him in our language we understand what he is saying. The "beautiful letter" after my missionary mom sent it to me and to some of my friends I talked to her and she told me she was sorry about the letter. I know HH and I know who was behind the letter and after talking to her I know it did not come from her heart only something they dreamed up and put in her mind...Out of HH traveling with us or visiting here in Brazil she was like a bird out of a cage...but this thread is not to discuss her...let her rest. However I ought to know her expressions and wordings of letters. I personally saw HH help make letters for others. Nothing goes out of there without their approval. All churches have certain standards they live by. My sisters are Baptist (different churches and different Baptist organizations) they too have certain rules their pastor feels are good to go by. But no body that I know is saying we are saved by rules... This thread is not about rules of churches. Or Prax's disagreement with Brother Philip. He shows his dislike and hate on every thread that is why I personally stopped reading his posts. HH does not agree with all Prax's believes either and neither does he agree with them...He just defends them here to have something to do...IF he really believed that they were jesus in the flesh believe me he would be there! If I thought they were GOD'S voice to earth I would be there. My church does not teach we have some special revelation from God and we are going to give bread to all the others in the end time. My people are not afraid of me. Our services are open all the time even our business meetings are OPEN. We have nothing to hide. We do not practice shunning. We do not have all kinds of proof papers to read and secret doctrines and levels. We do not separate ourselves off in some corner. Lots of people from different churches can come in any service or can be a part of our services. Yes, it is true that I am oneness and I hope I can portray oneness in a different light on this board than HH or Prax. Most people all believe in ONE GOD. This thread is not on the subject of how many Gods there are... All my life I have begged our people and my friends that we have a humble spirit about what we believe on many issues for if I am wrong and my friends are right I want them to remind God that in life I was merciful to them and to others. I saw no mercy at HH.......Jesus wants mercy and not sacrifice...all their sacrifice becomes in vain for they do not love as the Bible teaches. I saw them and heard them make fun of other churches and that I will not do... I think HH should go read the book of Gal. and Col. he might find out something about a loving God not one that is fixing to strike you dead... Watchman knows that I am oneness...according to some e mails he is sitting a trap fixing to devour me...I know how he feels about oneness and we remain friends... Scare tatics do not work on me...sorry...e mailers... I write on factnet because in my opinion HH is a cult and not a christian church. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 939 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Wise, When I share about the 'Appalachian Village Catholic & Protestants Together General Community Ecumenical' that is a lightly satirical summary of how F_H actually described what she now considers as true Christianity. It is also an accurate description (this was a while back when we had the discussion). Similarly the - Ethereal Factoid Fellowship of None. is meant to demonstrate, in a nutshell, how easy it is for folks with little to really offer in way of Christian fellowship and ministry and community to sit back and take potshots at those who really are dedicated, a community living for God daily. It is soooo easy to declare the standards from your lofty perch when you are accountable before God for no one. 'Oh, the church should be this, oh it should be that, oh, it should be any way other than HH' That is the type of deep doctrinal and exegetical base we get here from those attacking HH. Now it is true that such satirical formulations sometimes have a shortish shelf life. So I will talk your concern under real advisement, however they are definitely not ad hominem's, they are meant to succinctly make a sharp and true dialog point to the oppos who throw out any doctrinal point of convenience. (They actually throw out points where they disagree with one another and they do it only to attack HH. There is a pact of silence to not really discuss doctrinal points earnestly, only to use them as a wedge against HH. Again, the main exception to this is Under_Grace who I find really tries to discuss the Biblical issues, even when we occasionally differ). Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 989 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.138.191.195 |
Prax, Maybe you can return to the "NO ANSWERS" thread and give an answer to the Biblical issue addressed there: Does a "spiritual authority" in human form have final say when it is in conflict with an individual's personal conviction by the Holy Spirit on a specific issue? If so, where is the guideline in Scripture? | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 501 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Please, let us see the fruits, where this maturity is manifest, where there is deep sincerity and dedication and service one to another, as Jesus says will be among his disciples. Prax, I looked for my post that you keep mentioning and criticizing. If you come across it would be nice to refresh us on what I actually said. If we read it again and I think you will see the fruit and love these believers have, not just for each other, but also for the lost. We are feeding the hungry, visiting in prisons, being fathers to the fatherless, taking care of widows, preaching the gospel to the lost. There is love, self control, kindness, patience... What do you expect to see? ....Us laying down our lives to build a tourist attraction, using hand tools, all wearing the same clothes and eating the same foods, living on the same land, or in submission to the same man? What do we have to do to be a body or a community? What fruit are you looking for? How can you say there isn't any when you have never even met the people I posted about? How can you question their devotion to Jesus? Our unity is in our relationship to Jesus Christ and the same Holy Spirit leading in our lives. Just because we do not have one human to lead us all and his vision to fulfill doesn't keep us from being a community or having fellowship. We answer to one... God. We try to accomplish His will and perform the great commission to reach the lost and make disciples. Not disciples of ourselves, but disciples of Christ. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 502 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
I am so sad for you. I think you need your spiritual eyes opened to be able to see the Body of Christ. I feel sorry for you. You must not have any Christian friends that are living a life glorifying God without the fear of discipline from men to keep them in line. If you did, you would not find it so hard to believe that believers can live Godly by walking in the Spirit and desiring to glorify God. Why can't a man have deep sincerity and dedication and service to Jesus and his brothers and sisters in Christ and his local congregation without the governing of men to help him? The Kingdom of God is spiritual, the Holy Spirit governs our lives and each member is joined to the other because we all have the same head; Jesus. God have mercy on you. Why, because you mock the power of the Holy Spirit to unite believers of multiple denominations under one head, the Lord Jesus Christ; their Savior. May you know more of the power of God, FH | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
Prax said....................Billy Graham popularized it. Those appalled at the doctrine of these heretics call it decisional salvation, easy-believism, and fire insurance. They watch as “converts” rush back to the world without any evidence at all of grace in their lives... their preaching has devastated Bible Christianity. Their “converts” live like the world and presume on salvation by a cheap decision for heaven. Prax, your post is a typical Homestead answer! Dr. Graham has in fact helped Millions of folks find Jesus and MANY of these same folks live a Holy Christian life. Your post belittles their conversion and their walk with Jesus. This is a perfect example of the methods Homestead leaders use to promote themselves and their doctrine and put down all others in their walk with Christ. Prax, you are disgusting. Folks, surely you can see in this one example just how twisted Prax and his Homestead connections attack all others. Surely you can see how they treat God’s people. It a crying shame. Prax, go crawl back in your hole and leave the good Christian folks alone. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1789 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.120.72 |
God's kingdom is so big...John saw a number no man could number... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 945 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
S_G, you are in a very bad way. That is clear from your tone, your anger, your bitterness. First, let's give proper attribution, I was quoting an excellent article focusing on 'decisional salvation', a recent movement that has become the center of modern 'Christendom'. And you don't even begin to address the actual article, eg. "decisional salvation, easy-believism, and fire insurance. They watch as “converts” rush back to the world without any evidence at all of grace in their lives" And this is one reason why folks who are earnest seek out so much more than a 'decision'. Where is the life in the churches, the service, the community, the depth? This also takes us back to the testimony of the sister who shared from her heart to the Alvear's and they stomped upon her words. Shoot the messenger. Perhaps everyone here among the oppos is like S_G, the ecumenical 'decisional salvational' message of Billy Graham is now your true Christianity ? That's it ? That's all there is for the oppos ? Join Billy and kiss the pope's ring ? Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
Prax, Regarding "decisional salvation," I think you make some decent points. The problem with modern day evangelicalism is that it's far too easy to "get saved" and then turn around and live a life that doesn't gel with the way a Christian should live. With that said, many of the "decision" for Christ are legitimate and they result in a life lived for Jesus with all attempts at biblical holiness. It's not for us to judge a person's salvation experience. While most at HH do not claim to be Pentecostal, they do have a hertiage in the United Pentecostal Church. I know that heritage leads them to believe many things that are in-line with UPC doctrine: salvific baptism; holiness standards of dress, etc.; Oneness theology; charismatic experiences; etc. I think one of the things that they also take from their UPC roots is the idea of salvation being a process, not a decision or a plan. I think salvation is a two-sided coin: something that needs to be "worked out" and something that happens upon a "decision" for Jesus as Lord. A lot of times, a person's salvation experience does not take root, and, IMO, that person was never truly saved to begin with. As far as ecumenicalism goes, I have no problem with it. While I think the Roman Catholic church has its fair share of heresies, I think the heart of the Gospel exists there and true believers can come to know the Lord as part of the RCC. I personally don't prefer it, and I have no desire to take part in their heresies, but I don't deny them the hand of fellowship because at their heart, I think, they are believers in the same Lord, Jesus Christ. With that said, I know most (if not all) of HH folks see the RCC as damnable heresy. That's fine. They're entitled to their beliefs. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 951 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Trilogy, Actually I think that HH folks would tend to be much softer in tone. However that is, in essence if not in words, the historic Reformation viewpoint of the RCC. And their reasons for a wide separation from popery are strong and compelling. A lot of these historic truths have been watered down or smokescreened under many dubious influences, especially in the last century. To be fair, please understand that I did augment my understanding of these historic Christian issues in my post-HH days. We really did not have that much of a focus on the Reformation/popery conflicts (although The Two Babylons or Mystery Babylon was read some .. maybe also the Thomas Weisser book "Three Persons from the Bible? or Babylon") so some of this discussion may have some distance from the HH emphasis. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
Prax said earlier....................Billy Graham popularized it. Those appalled at the doctrine of these heretics call it decisional salvation, easy-believism, and fire insurance. They watch as “converts” rush back to the world without any evidence at all of grace in their lives... their preaching has devastated Bible Christianity. Their “converts” live like the world and presume on salvation by a cheap decision for heaven. After my reply Prax then said....... First, let's give proper attribution; I was quoting an excellent article focusing on 'decisional salvation', a recent movement that has become the center of modern 'Christendom'. And you don't even begin to address the actual article, eg. SG says........Correct; I did not address an article YOU decided as being excellent. If it degrades the work of Dr. Billy Graham I would consider it a horrible article. I stand by my previous statement......... Prax, your post is a typical Homestead answer! Dr. Graham has in fact helped Millions of folks find Jesus and MANY of these same folks live a Holy Christian life. Your post belittles their conversion and their walk with Jesus. This is a perfect example of the methods Homestead leaders use to promote themselves and their doctrine and put down all others in their walk with Christ. Prax, you are disgusting. Folks, surely you can see in this one example just how twisted Prax and his Homestead connections attack all others. Surely you can see how they treat God’s people. It a crying shame. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 952 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
S_G, Clearly you are far from any sort of radical Christianty or historic Reformation faith. In fact your faith today seems to rest in being against HH. Where is your walk with God ? And .. your tongue is distressed and diseased. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 125 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
Prax, It is unfortunate that my access to computers is extremely limited. I have a lot more I would like to share about you but time does not allow. I only get to post for a moment each evening; it’s a public terminal being shared by many. I try not to get into the name calling game but you are so evil and such a jerk the temptation is too great. I would like to apologize to all the readers of this board when my words are stringent but when dealing with evil spirits such as Prax it’s sometimes necessary to plunge to their level. Don’t be fooled by his quoting scripture to try to bolster his points. Lucifer knew the Bible very well and used scripture when trying to trip up Jesus. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
prax, what do you think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 954 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Pilgrim, Good question. Tremendous respect for his role in the confessing church. Not really informed on his doctrinal places. A very involved question. I am open to what you have to share (keep in mind that I am used to questions here that are more designed to try to trap than inform, although not from you). When they did the recent movie, they were sold out (up in Poughkeepsie, I took a little drive) although of course movies have limitations. ===== btw, Pilgrim .. hope you don't mind my doubling on the same post .. It is weird to see S_G going so haywire. This seems to be a reflection of the bondage of animus and rebellion that some who try to fully reject the things of God fall into. Quite telling. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| not_scared Junior Member Username: not_scared Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.181.6 |
i think we all know whats going on here sg. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 504 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.39 |
I found it... My post about the community I live in that Prax likes to belittle. It's an old topic now. You all have gone on to other things. I am just putting a link here for reference. http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=286860#POST286860 Good night and God Bless each of you. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
prax, well, this is a little trap, I guess. But when Bonhoeffer went to Rome he said that there was only one place where the idea of "holy mother Church" had any meaning at all...and that was the Roman Catholic Church. He was struck by the consecration that he witnessed there. So, people can say lots of things about the Catholic Church, but he didn't. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 958 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Pilgrim, Bonhoeffer went to Rome in 1924, his younger years, 18 years of age. Here is the quote I found. http://dietrichbonhoeffer.wordpress.com/2006/12/01/review-of-dietrich-bonhoeffer-a-spoke-in-the-wheel-by-renate-wind/ Diary entries of his visit to Rome in April of 1924. provide a window into his first encounter with the church in a Catholic mass. “The whole thing was so fresh, and made an unprecedented impression of the deepest piety. . . I believe I am beginning to understand the concept of the ‘church.’” The Concordat was 1933. The Confessing Church and the Barmen Declaration the next year. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1792 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.249 |
Everything the eye sees is really NOT what you think you see or not what you think you feel... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1793 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.249 |
Everything the eye sees is really NOT what you think you see or not what you think you feel... | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
prax, thanks for the quote: but i have to respond to your mentioning the concordat. yes, it can be interpreted as a dark time for the church, but on the other hand the church remembered what Henry the 8th did...just kill the priests or throw them in jail and the church in that country is finished, at least for the time being...however someone interprets it, it does not nullify what Bonheoffer felt...and he never really got far beyond his "younger days" and was already, as you know, a very deep thinker and very serious Christian even at 18... | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 505 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.155 |
Pilgrim, I understand respect for "the consecration that he witnessed there." But, from personal experience, (I learned the hard way,) we have to be careful to who or what we are consecrating ourselves. The Church... God's people need to consecrate and set ourselves apart for God Himself. Like the temple of the Old Covenant, the Body of Christ...the "Mother Church" is Holy. But... it is God's presence that makes it Holy. It has no holiness of it's own. The temptation is to put our faith and admiration in what we can see instead of what we can't. It is so easy for us to want to consecrate and "worship" what we can see OF God, and forget that our entire being and soul are to be consecrated to Him only. In other words; we need to be careful that we don't exalt, seek, or devote ourselves to the temple of God instead of the God of the Temple. God showed me that this is why I fell for HH. I saw something beautiful to behold and it distracted me from my whole/entire devotion to God. I let the "temple," distract me from the God of the temple; so much so that IT became my god. He also showed me that it was the same "spirit" in HH as in the Catholic Church. I think it is everywhere actually. It is a spirit of deception, a spirit that wants us to seek the "things of God" enough to take our eyes off of Jesus and place our faith and devotion elsewhere, usually in what we can see. I am NOT saying that Catholics or any of us aren't worshiping God none at all. I am just saying that it is easy for us to forget and misplace at least some of our faith; instead of placing the entirety of our faith and devotion in God Himself. I personally think it becomes a down hill run. Once we begin to loose even a little of our focus on Jesus, it is so easy to keep going in that direction. Because of some of the extra doctrines in the Catholic Church, believers who are in that church have stumbling blocks of those extra doctrines of men to overcome, but I have seen many of them do it. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 506 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.155 |
Some of us are more inclined than others to fall into the trap. I think there are whole "congregations" who have fallen into the trap; some so deeply so...that they lost their focus on God altogether and have become MORE devoted to "the mother church" (the organization) and/or the congregation/body than to God. I have close friends, who are wholly devoted to Jesus and consider themselves catholic. They don't pray to "saints" or accept everything in the Catholic Church, but they did come to faith in Jesus there. It is there that they heard the gospel and were saved. So it is there that they continue serve Jesus. The handful of catholics that I have met here share the same Gospel of grace and have "faith that works" that many of the other churches here do. So I believe they share the same Jesus and salvation. We work together side by side serving the Lord by loving our neighbors the way Jesus told us to. When God showed me how I had misplaced my loyalty and devotion while in HH, I blamed myself and tried hard to overcome the obstacles that spirit of deception and those extra doctrines that were stumbling blocks. I soon was able to see that it was impossible to live a life fully devoted to Jesus and walking in the Spirit at HH. Their core doctrines and their practices placed the "mother church" on the very throne of God. What that spirit of deception has tried to do in the Catholic Church, it had succeeded to do in HH. It had accomplished it's goal in the majority of the members and written itself into the doctrines of HH and even HH's gospel. The "body of Christ" became their Jesus and salvation. Devotion to HH was seen as devotion to Jesus. If you questioned HH or disagreed with HH you were questioning or disagreeing with "God." If you left HH you left "God." According to HH doctrine, the authority of Jesus comes THROUGH the appropriate channels in the body. The Spirit of God leads you to HH so HH can lead you. The Spirit expresses God's will for your life through the leaders. The believer’s personal relationship to God and his walk in the spirit has been replaced by his submission to the powers that be as the power and authority of God. HH has become "Jesus still in the flesh"... savior and the mediator between the believer and the father. HH insists on sitting on the throne of God in the member's life. There is no compromise allowed. The existence my friends have in the Catholic Church is impossible in HH. I would like to say that this is not true. I would like someone to say they have tried it and succeeded. Unfortunately it would be seen as rebellion by HH. It is all or nothing. There is no room for a personal conviction that differs from the apostle’s conviction. His interpretation must become theirs; his “course of faith” theirs. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 507 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.155 |
I am guessing, but…I think this is why DO and Prax can not join HH. They, or their spouses, have convictions that they are not willing to compromise and HH is not willing to accept. This is why most of us left. It is not that we wanted to be free to sin. It is because we wanted to devote ourselves to wholly...entirely...to Jesus and the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit...even when it disagreed with HH. I am saved by Grace and walking in the Spirit...not perfectly... but by the power and grace of God. Along the way I receive encouragement from my brothers and sisters in Christ, especially my husband, and the counsel of my pastor. I am maturing in my walk. All the while I am free to follow the personal leading of Holy Spirit and "Christ in me" who greater than my flesh and he who is in the world. "Christ in us" is able to do beyond all we could ever hope if we will let HIM, and only Him, sit on the throne of our lives. Let us be careful about what we seek and devote ourselves to. If we seek to keep Jesus on the throne of our lives, He will add to our lives what we need and more. (Seek ye first…) Father, Your kingdom come, Your will be done. Help us walk in the Spirit. In Jesus name, FH | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
fh, for me the Catholic church was the one place that I could find true meaning after HH. | ||
| covenantwoman6 New member Username: covenantwoman6 Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 72.43.210.206 |
FH AMEN AMEN AMEN CW} | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 508 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.43 |
fh, for me the Catholic church was the one place that I could find true meaning after HH. I am so glad that you did not give up on God. I know of other ex-hh-ers who have become Catholics. There is a lot of rituals and some doctrines in the catholic Church that I personally do not agree with, but the core beliefs that my catholic friend Beth has shared with me include the simple Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and I have witnessed the Holy Spirit working in her life and others. For some ex-hh-ers, HH is the only God they had ever known and that turned them away from God completely. I am glad you are not one of them. I hope what you are really finding meaning in is the God of the Catholic Church. The traditions of the church bring us comfort and a sense of security, and we need the Body of Christ to encourage us in our walk with God, but it is our personal relationship with Jesus that must always come first and foremost. He will never fail you. It is Him who by all things have their being, especially the church. The church is made up of us fallible believers, so failure happens, but Jesus Himself will never fail you. He is always faithful and if we keep all our faith in Him and not the church, our faith will not be disappointed. When I was a child and lived up north, quite a few of the Catholics in my neighborhood put a lot of faith in the priests and prayers to the saints. But the Catholics I know here don't do that. I think that can happen in any church... putting our faith in rituals and godly men instead of Jesus. Most preachers don't ask to be put on a pedestal. (Though some demand it.) It is not fair to the men we put there. Even Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. I think he was saying, "If ever you see me not following Christ don't go with me." If we take our eyes off of Jesus and don't stay in the Word we wont know when we are being mislead. I am happy that you have found meaning in life. I pray that the Lord Jesus will restore all that the locust have eaten in your past and that your cup will overflow with God's mercy, grace, and blessings of all kinds. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
fh, the Catholic Church is the only place where communion makes sense...has made sense for 2000 years and will make sense until the Lord comes...if it is really the body and blood of Jesus who wouldn't want it? and if it isn't whats the real point of doing it? as to the saints, the Bible says that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ...why couldn't the "we" here be the part of the Body that has gone on to heaven...we are all still one body and death doesn't change that...why are you so sure that when you get to heaven you will not know or care about what is going on in the rest of the body of Christ on earth? | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 510 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.43 |
Oh... I am not saying that the saints are not part of the body or they don't care… or anything like that. What I know is that the disciples asked Jesus how we should pray and He said... "Our Father" and I know He said that whatever we ask in His name... So that is how I pray. He is my God. As far as I know none of the Saints ever promised to hear my prayers and answer... and Jesus never told me to pray to them, so I don’t assume anything concerning prayers to them. I hope that is OK with you that I don't believe exactly like you, because I don't expect you to believe exactly like me. This has nothing to do with the Gospel or HH so I won't argue with you about it, especially not here. I consider you a brother in Jesus if you truly believe in Jesus and the Gospel shared in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. (smile) | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
FH, i respect your position; it was mine for many, many years. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 961 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
F_H "why DO and Prax can not join HH... not willing to compromise and HH is not willing to accept.." As we move out of the regular realm of Factoid psychobabble to blaze brand new pathways of 3rd party doctrinal-babble-analysis ! "can not join HH" Does that mean today ? tomorrow ? yesterday ? Does "can not" imply some sort of impassable wall ? I do hope you realize that it is very hard to make predictions ... .. especially about the future.  Pilgrim .. now I understand that you are actually RCC. Hmmm.. That explains trying to link this and that. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 511 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Prax, I was not trying to predict anything. I don't pretend to be a prophet. lol. I was just guessing; like I said. It is not like I was talking behind your back or anything. I knew you could come on here and give us your reasons for not having joined if you wanted to. I promise I meant no disrespect or harm. I was assuming...a no no... I shouldn't have done it. I didn't mean anything by "can not." I could of just as easily said has not. Do you mind sharing why you have not joined? I wish the best for you. If it is God's will for you to join HH, then I wish that for you and pray that nothing will stand in your way. I mean that in all sincerity. I can trust God enough to pray His will be done. He knows what is best for each of us. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 512 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Yeah Prax... I do get wordy, lol. How about this Matt 22: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
the Catholic Church is the only place where communion makes sense...has made sense for 2000 years and will make sense until the Lord comes...if it is really the body and blood of Jesus who wouldn't want it? and if it isn't whats the real point of doing it? While I don't agree with Catholic exegesis on particular doctrinal issues (e.g. transubstantiation), I do think that the Gospel exists in the RCC. Regarding communion, what's the point? As Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me." The point, I believe, is to remember. I've found it very interesting how, even though HH and the RCC are on opposite ends of the Christian spectrum, they circle around and are actually quite similar in a lot of ways. For example: -- It seems the leadership in both entities is charged with interpreting Christian truth for the congregation. (I'm not saying that's wrong, just stating a fact.) -- A strong emphasis on salvific sacraments. In HH's case, baptism. In the RCC's case, baptism and communion. -- A strong belief that their respective churches are the "true church" following in the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. -- A strong, central leader. RCC's is the pope. HH's is BA. Some might take offense to this, but I am, not at all, trying to be offensive. I know HH shys away from saying they have one specific leader, and, granted, they do have elders. It seems clear to me, though, that BA is the main guy. And with the RCC, the pope is the main guy. Just some thoughts. Peace to everyone. :-) | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
trilogy, good thoughts and a good spirit in sharing them. I know this web site is not a place to talk about Catholicism. I only brought it up because it is where I found peace after the whole HH thing. It seems a lot of people here are still in a state of some turmoil and I think that is because HH is a unique place that seemed to be the true fulfillment of, well, a rejection of the Catholic Church as the true church. the roots of HH are obviously anti-Catholic; the same roots as all Reformation and Anabaptist Churches. Mainline denominational churches have mostly, after a few centuries splintered or fell away from the real gospel...non-denominational churches are still relatively young and it yet remains to see if they can sustain themselves. HH is only 30 some years old. the oneness movement is just over a hundred. So we must wait and see. there are now 30,000 plus different Christian groups and churches in the world today. we are cycling through every possible spiritual genetic variation. that is obviously not biblical. | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
Mainline denominational churches have mostly, after a few centuries splintered or fell away from the real gospel.. Pilgrim. If I may ask, in your opinion, what is the "real gospel"? Personally, I think the gospel exists in all branches of Christianity. However, sometimes it's hard to discern through all of the excess junk. :-) | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
trilogy, well is the good news of Jesus; Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again; according to Scripture...and its preaching automatically calls for holiness from the hearers. it is received by faith which is a gift of grace...but in Catholicism it also comes to us through the instrumentality of the sacraments...and these you cannot recieve in all branches of Christianity. | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
Pilgrim, Paul said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you ... for I did not come to baptise, but to preach the gospel." Thus, it is apparent that the sacrament of baptism at least is not part of the gospel. Still, I think your definition is right on (sans the part about the sacraments :-). Furthermore, I don't see anywhere in Scripture where it would indicate that communion is salvific, or somehow tied to receiving the gospel. I also know that, if you're a good post-Vatican II Catholic :-), then you acknowledge the "supremacy of scripture" in matters of faith. Sure, I know Catholics don't affirm sola scriptura ,like most protestants, but Scripture is at least the common ground shared between all three branches of Christianity: Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant. Peace. | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 |
Mainline denominational churches have mostly, after a few centuries splintered or fell away from the real gospel.. So, back to my point about this comment. According to your definition, I can't say that I agree with you. Sure, some individuals within mainline denoms have fallen away from the gospel, but I don't know of any denom that has truly fallen away from the gospel "after a few centuries," as you say. Like I said previously, I think the gospel exists in all branches of Christianity. Again. Peace. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
trilogy, I believe that the whole Bible is liturgical, all the way from Able's offering to Noah, to Abraham to Paul...Part of the Reformation problem was to try to separate Scripture from liturgy; your left with just a personal thing which is in itself good, but it is not the Church. ON the other point I stand corrected; certainly all the denominations have some churches preaching the gospel...but if John Wesley walked into a lot of methodist churches today he would be horrified. The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation so it is logically part of the gospel... | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
and...Jesus did say unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have not life in you. | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation so it is logically part of the gospel... And Paul said that baptism was not linked to the gospel. So, do you believe church tradition or scripture? | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
and...Jesus did say unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have not life in you. I believe this was metaphor. Paul said we all "drink of one Spirit" ... also a metaphor. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
well, Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved; Peter says that baptism does also now save us...Ananias told Paul to rise up and be baptized washing away your sins...romans says we are buried with him in baptism; and obvious linking up with the gospel... | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
and, so you think communion is just metaphorical? | ||
| trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
Pilgrim, I could answer each of your prooftexts, point-for-point. As I'm sure you could answer all of mine. The fact is, I'm glad you're happy in the RCC and I wish you all the best there. Like I said before, I disagree with a lot of RCC exegesis. But I think you understand the gospel, so peace to you. :-) I will ask: when you were in HH did you think you had the one true vision for Christianity? Do you believe the same thing as a member of the rcc? | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
and, so you think communion is just metaphorical? No. But Jesus' reference to eating his body, etc., was a metaphor. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
and the thing that Paul said means, I think, that you must be "sent" to preach the gospel...you don't have to be sent to baptize. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
trilogy, to answer your question, sure i thought HH was it, it takes time on this journey and you do have to be willing to change if you see more truth. | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
Now, do you think HH is is? | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
Sorry, do you think HH is "it" now? | ||
| under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 384 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.155.5.115 |
Hey Pilgrim, Glad you are going on with God as you many leaving HH do not. I was reading the other day in a Catholic Newsletter and there was an article admonishing the young people because they did not value their baptism experience since it happened at birth and they cannot possibly remember how wonderful it was. Doesn't it bother you a little that their is no example of baptising infants in scripture none not even one, though their are many accounts of people being baptised. Since of course an infant has no say in the matter and his will is not involved I have always wondered what the point is. Any thoughts? Under Grace | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
Sorry for the third time. I meant do you think the RCC is "it" now? | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
UG well, as you know, there are places in acts where whole households were baptized...so there is a good chance there were infants...the other thing is very beautiful and simple...in Col. Paul likes baptism to circumcision. as you know in Israel children were circumcised on the eighth day after they were born...no one asked them if they wanted to do this. trilogy, I think there are millions of true Christians that are not RC; however i think only RCC qualifies as "the" Church because it alone stretches back to the Apostles. | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
Pilgrim, Sure, the household baptisms *may* have included children and the link with circumcision is nice as well. But the point stands: there's no scripture that shows or commands for infants to be baptised. Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with paedo baptism, but I think people should be aware that scriptural support is, at best, not quite solid. RCC qualifies as "the" Church because it alone stretches back to the Apostles. Actually, the Eastern Orthodox church stretches back to the Apostles as well. Even Catholics know and believe that about the EO church. (See the section on Eastern Orthodoxy in catholic.com for example.) In a sense, all Christian churches "stretch back" to the apostles in that each person was converted individually by someone who was a Christian, who was prior to that converted by a Christian, all the way back to the original Apostles. I know that's not the same as Apostolic Succession in the episcopacy, but it's still rooted in Jesus and the Apostles. The reality is, no matter what UG or anyone else says to any Catholic about any Catholic doctrine, the ultimate answer is always "because the RCC says it's so, therefore it is so." For example the Bible says, "All have sinned and fall short of God's glory." and the RCC has the dogma of the Immaculate Conception -- that Mary was born without sin. How is that possible? According to scripture Mary sinned because "all have sinned." Still, the RCC response is "the RCC says it's so, so it's so." To me, that's a bit shaky. | ||
| common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 993 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.127.83.174 |
Seems to me that only one church does qualify as "the" church -- and it is indeed "catholic" or "universal" in scope -- and that is the Church which is the Body of Christ, made up of ALL true believers, past, present and future. No denomination or sect may claim that title. It is impossible for THE Church to contain unbelievers. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
trilogy, I of course, once thought exactly the same way as you. but when i stopped trying to shore up arguments against the RCC and decided to study with an open mind things began to look quite different. I saw that the RCC produces saints; (I know we are all called to be saints) but I mean people who truly died to themselves and lived for Christ; and I saw that often the Church persecuted its own saints... but they never complained or blamed the Church or left the Church. The Church for the Catholic is what Jerusalem is to the Jew...no matter what happened the jews did not decide to go off and start a different Jerusalem. This is what is meant by holy mother Church, which I know, kind of grates on the nerves of some, but it does really mean something wonderful to me now. no saint ever resented the authority of the church. anyway, don't get me started or you have to tell me to shut up. about Mary, the thing is she was redeemed...like God told Jerimaiah (or Isaiah?) "before you were in the womb I knew you." So instead of being redeemed like we were, after falling in the hole, Mary was redeemed before she fell in the hole. How could Jesus take his sinless flesh from her if it was any other way? | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
cs, i admit the idea of the church being made up of all sincere Christians has an appeal. but, it has some serious problems too.. the world does not see this unity and the world is who is receiving the gospel. Paul said that all believers should speak the same things...this Scripture (and many others) are meaningless and redundant if all sincere believers are already the church. the only doctrine that means anything would be just believing... | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
All denominations have produced "saints" who have "died to themselves and lived for Christ." I'm not trying to argue the point on Mary. My point is that the bible says "all have sinned" yet the RCC claims Mary did not sin. That is a contradiction. The contradiction doesn't mean anything to a Catholic because if the RCC says it's so, then it's so. | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
trilogy, I'm just going to say this and then let it go. the Church never said that Mary did not need Jesus' redemption. Jesus is her savior just like he is our's. | ||
| trilogy Junior Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 66.69.157.80 |
Pilgrim, Thanks. Again, I'm glad you're happy in the RCC.  | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 962 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, Pilgrim, little question. (You may have addressed this earlier.) Were you ever involved with HH ? And if so, did you have an RCC involvement before those days ? Just trying to have a clearer picture. Thanks. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
prax, oh yes, many years with HH. there were two things I thought I would never do: live in texas and become a Catholic, so I was wrong on both counts. but no involvement before HH. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 963 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Pilgrim, Thanks. Did you also have any substantive other Reformation (or Protestant/Baptist/etc.) background before or after HH ? "Can there any good thing come out of Texas?" Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 |
mostly pentecostal background before HH. | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
Bump |
