| Author | Message | ||
     called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1431 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.243.89 |
{My Personal Challenge to the Trinitarian world at large} I Pastor/Evangelist Johnny J Christen Jr. of {The Straight and Narrow Gate Apostolic Ministries INC} In the Philippines, Openly challenge {{{The Trinitarian world at large}}} to present or provide for me {Written Scriptural Proof} that the “Doctrine of the Holy Trinity” was “specifically and expressly” {taught} by Christ himself or the Original 12 hand picked Apostles of Christ Almighty in the First Century Church that Christ himself come to establish over 2000 years ago. In order to meet this challenge you must Present to me at least one Holy spirit inspired scripture from the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon, that {Specifically and Expressly Teaches} {Word forWord} The doctrine of the Holy Trinity as Defined by the Councils and Creeds of the Roman Catholic Church, such as {the Nicene and the Athanasian creeds}, And no other Holy spirit inspired scripture found in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon can contradict any part of this teaching whatsoever in anyway shape or form, or the doctrine of the Holy Trinity will automatically be considered nothing more than a Post Apostolic teaching of man that was birthed out of the Roman Catholic Church in The Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381 AD “The Basic teaching of the Holy Trinity As Taught in all Trinitarian Churches today” 1. We worship one God “in three persons” and “three persons” in one God. 2. Their are three" separate” and “distinct individual persons” in the Godhead, . . 3. “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” and these three are one. . These three “distinct” individual persons” are “co-equal” “co-eternal” and “co- existing”. 4.{God the Father is the First person of the Godhead} {God the Son is the second person of the Godhead} and {God the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Godhead}. NOW!!! I will tear up my license to preach, move to the location of your Church or Ministry with my family, Join your Church or Ministry and faithfully support it until the day I die, {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles specifically and expressly taught {in NT Scripture} that { We worship one God “in three persons” or “three persons” in one God} Or {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles specifically and expressly taught {in NT Scripture} that {. Their are three" separate” and “distinct individual persons” in the Godhead,. “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” and these three are one. Or {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles specifically and expressly taught {in NT Scripture} that {God the Father is the First person of the Godhead} {God the Son is the second person of the Godhead} and {God the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Godhead}. And {IF} You can show me at least one NT Convert in the 27 Epistles of the NT canon that has ever been Baptized in the {Trinitarian baptismal formula} found in Mat 28:19 Yours in Christ Pastor/Evangelist Johnny J Christen, of {The Straight and Narrow Gate Apostolic Ministries INC} In the Philippines, | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1432 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.243.89 |
Here are the two Creeds!!! The Nicene Creed We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being [substance] with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen The Nicene Creed is also sometimes divided into 12 sections for catechesis (see Eastern Orthodox Catechism): 1. We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen. 2. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being [substance] with the Father. Through him all things were made. 3. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made truly human. 4. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. 5. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; 6. he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 7. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.. 8. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. 9. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. 10. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. 11. We look for the resurrection of the dead, 12. and the life of the world to come. Amen. Adapted from a translation by the International Consultation on English Texts, 1975 | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1433 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.243.89 |
The Athanasian Creed Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all else, hold to the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever. Now this is the true Christian faith: We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God, without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being. For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct, but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory and coeternal in majesty. What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit. The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; The Father is eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal, just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite, but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite. In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty. And yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord; yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord. For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord, so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords. The Father is neither made not created, nor begotten of anyone. The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior, but all three persons are coequal and coeternal, so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God and one God worshiped as three persons. Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity. It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh. Now this is the true Christian faith: We believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and Man. He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh, equal to the Father, as to his deity, less than the Father, as to his humanity; and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one, one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God; one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person. For just as the reasonable soul and flesh are one human being, so God and man are one Christ, who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will rise again with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, but those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire. This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1434 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.243.89 |
Now put your mony where your month is!!! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1390 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 |
right or wrong doctrine is not what is important. the only reason it has become important is because of the constant power struggle that all who misinterpret the message of christ go through. you are doing tha same thing that they do called. they got better results because they were in charge politically as well. you think that the struggle is with right or wrong doctrine when really the struggle is within us not outside of us. i like what roger waters said: "what god wants god gets god help us all". it is amazing to me that you think that you must do the job of god. who said we needed your training? your arrogance will be your downfall. it is to bad. you remind me of myself 25yrs ago. you must take this whole thing one step further. forget about right doctrine and conscentrate on the right message. love one another. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1436 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
{right or wrong doctrine is not what is important} Im 100% sure the Apostles would disagree with you sir! We are told by the Apostle Jude the Brother of Christ almighty to Fight for the Faith that was once delivered to the Saints! The Faith and Doctrine Christ and the Apostles died for! Whats so sad is you people have no idea whatsoevery just that means!!! I don,t see one single Trinitarian standing up and accepting my Challenge!!! You know why??? because they simply CAN,T!!! Trinitarians do alot of Barking but when it comes right down to it they just can,t Bite!!! Thats a Damn Shame!!!!!!!!! If what i am saying is not true than stand up like a true Man or Woman of God and defend your Faith if you can! or just run away with your tail between your legs and don,t even consider yourself a Christian anymore!!!!! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1398 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 |
maybe you need to describe that faith to me called. i would think it would be a faith that produced results. if your arrogance is the result of your faith then maybe you should reconsider your faith. you seem to always be 100% sure of yourself. at the same time you agree that there are cotradictions in the scripture. of course you would say it is because of the catholic church. that is fine with me for all i know they did corrupt the scriptures. the point is that even you can't be sure what is meant by some of the words in that book. in my opinion you are approaching the bible with the wrong premise. it seems as if you are thinking that all scripture is to be interpreted on a literal and historical basis. this how christianity does it as well and you have seen the results of that. the question of who is right and who is wrong is the only thing that can come from what you are doing. i have been taught by people like you and what i have seen is that they only bring heartache to those that are truely searching. i think the reason for that is because it is impossible to know god when there seems to be so many contradictions. who could believe that god would make it so difficult to know him? by the way, i have no interest in your challenge. i have little interest in fighting over doctrine. however, i am more than willing to have a reasonable discussion with you about some of these things as long as you put your arrogance in your pocket for a while. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1440 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
you seem to always be 100% sure of yourself""" Yes i am 100% sure of myself when it comes to the Trinity! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1400 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 |
hey called, i would tend to agree with you on the trinity thing. however, it really is not very important to me. i was originally taught by the church of christ non-instrumental. i even went to one of their schools. i was one of those people that thought it was important to argue doctrine. what i saw was one denomination pitting itself against another. it is pitiful. when i see individuals doing that it bothers me even more. it has never done anything but divide people. you can tell that people are listening to what they are being taught at least. to bad they aren't taught the truth. the truth that brings peace. that is why i think it is time to take another look at what that book is really trying to tell us. those that think it is necassery to argue doctrine do not understand what christ was trying to tell us. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1441 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
And your right, But the Bible is not only about love, its about upholding the teachings of Christ and his 12 hand picked Apostles!!! The teachings of the Apostle was not all about love, but of up holding the true order in the body of Christ{THE CHURCH} and seting ourselfs apart from this evil world!!! and Keeping God,s Commandments and the Faith of Christ his {{{SON}}} Pure!!! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1442 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
Their was no suching as a Trinitarian doctrine taught in the first century Apostolic Church, and their shoulden,t be one today!!! But their is!!! and millions and millions of people are deceived by it! and will never enter the Kingdom of God unless they come out of it!!! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1404 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 |
Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1405 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 |
And your right, But the Bible is not only about love, its about upholding the teachings of Christ and his 12 hand picked Apostles!!! The teachings of the Apostle was not all about love, but of up holding the true order in the body of Christ{THE CHURCH and seting ourselfs apart from this evil world!!! and Keeping God,s Commandments and the Faith of Christ his {{{SON}}} Pure!!! } love one another is what christ taught. Mt 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Mt 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mt 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. Mt 22:39 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. when we get serious about this then something will happen. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1444 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
Mt 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Mt 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mt 22:38 This is the great and first commandment. Mt 22:39 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. when we get serious about this then something will happen. I agree with that 100% | ||
| genesis_truth Intermediate Member Username: genesis_truth Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 203.96.117.58 |
You are an agressive little guy, Called. Why so agressive. When I read your posts, I get the image of a man with a bright read face and saliva spitting from his mouth each time he speaks. Why so uptight about the trinity? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1445 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
Because it was birthed out of the RCC! I HATE THE RCC!!! and it was not Expressly taught by Christ or his Apostles in the First Century!!! Its a lie from the pits of Hell itself! So would you like to be the first to take My Personal Challenge? | ||
| dodge Advanced Member Username: dodge Post Number: 909 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.128.112.200 |
As a Roman Catholic, I am offended by your intolerance, Johnny Christian. If you are Christian, as you claim, then love, compassion and forgiveness would be at the center of your relationship with others. To say that you "Hate the Roman Catholic Church" shows me there is some form of emotional pathology behind your feelings. Instead of foaming at the mouth on an internet forum, I would suggest you schedule some therapy sessions in order to get to the causes of your unreasonable hatred of Roman Catholics. There are over a billion baptized members of the Roman Catholic church, the largest denomination of Christianity. You, "Johnny Christian" (AKA "Called") are one pathetic little voice posting on an anti-cult message board with absolutely no credentials or validity. | ||
| genesis_truth Intermediate Member Username: genesis_truth Post Number: 108 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 124.197.16.222 |
Called, you are taking yourself much too seriously. I am protestant and there are some things I disagree with in regards to RCC but I would hardly hate them and actually appreciate a lot of things they have done. You are an idiot if you spout the rubbish that comes from your mouth and take it seriously. Therefore I have to assume that you are just being sarcastic and having a joke. Ha ha, very funny. Lighten up man | ||
| sharon Advanced Member Username: sharon Post Number: 671 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.164.4.48 |
Called do you forget that many many people in the RCC died to bring us the word. Sure it has its problems but we do owe a great debt to many and those who died horrible deaths to keep the word coming down through time to us. You can not let the sacrifaces of the many be destroyed by the actions of a few. Many maryters deserve our love and compassion. And many in the church today are stong in faith and love. No church is without errors or those who deceive, but the real church is us and our love. We are the church and as so we love those who are in error. Remember the rejoicing in heaven over the one lost sheep. The Lord has many working in many churches, we must not judge what he is doing. Those he wants out he will take out. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1450 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. The Roman Catholic church and every Protestant sect and denomination on the face of the earth {{{causes divisions and offences that are 100% contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned from the Original Apostles and we are commanded to avoid them. According to the teachings of the apostle paul So unlike you guys, I am just following Pure Biblical Scripture and acting unon it! You people truly need to try that sometime!!! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1451 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
"""You are an idiot if you spout the rubbish that comes from your mouth and take it seriously""" Thank you!!! and all of you are an idiot if you put the words of the Pope or Man made Roman catholic Councils and Creeds that don't even line up with the Pure word of God {{{ABOVE THE PURE WORD OF GOD}}} | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4388 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.244 |
Philippians 2:6-7 Paul wrote of Christ, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." The two expressions "with God" show the personal distinction within the Godhead. These verses stress the eternity of the Word. He has existed for all time, he is the Creator of all things that have been made, and he himself therefore cannot be one of the created things (Colossians 1:15-18) John 8:58 "Before Abraham was born, I am." Thomas exclaimed of Christ, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28); "I and my father are one" (John 10:30, and John 5:18. In James and Jude, Christ is presented constantly on a parallel with "God" and with "the Father," and given equal glory and honor (James 1:1; 2:1; Jude 1,4,21,25). If they were not two persons, Jesus would not have called God Father. They are not persons as in having bodies, but in that they display emotion; love, anger, jealous, mercy, pleasure, sorrow, etc. To be cont. | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4389 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.244 |
They are personal. Texts that show the Holy Spirit as deity are Acts 5:1-4 "...how is it that satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit...You have not lied to men but to God." The Holy Spirit is clearly seen as person. The antitrinitarian idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere force or energy by which God works, or indeed that the Spirit is simply the working of God, would make this passage senseless, for one cannot lie to an impersonal object or force. The passage shows also how clearly the early Church identified the Holy Spirit with God: to lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God. Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Hebrews 9:14 "...much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" This speaks of an eternal personality, the Holy Spirit, and it is this eternal nature of the Holy Spirit which points out his deity. In the Old and New Testaments alike, God alone is truly eternal, and to speak of a person as eternal is to speak of that person as God. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1457 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.205.44 |
Nice try godchild but you havent answered my questions!!! NOW!!! I will tear up my license to preach, move to the location of your Church or Ministry with my family, Join your Church or Ministry and faithfully support it until the day I die, {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles {{{specifically and expressly taught}}} {in NT Scripture} that { We worship one God “in three persons” or “three persons” in one God} Or {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles {{{specifically and expressly}}} taught {in NT Scripture} that {. Their are three" separate” and “distinct individual persons” in the Godhead,. “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” and these three are one. Or {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles {{{specifically and expressly taught}}} {in NT Scripture} that {God the Father is the First person of the Godhead} {God the Son is the second person of the Godhead} and {God the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Godhead}. And {IF} You can show me at least one NT Convert in the 27 Epistles of the NT canon that has ever been Baptized in the {Trinitarian baptismal formula} found in Mat 28:19 Yours in Christ Pastor/Evangelist Johnny J Christen, of {The Straight and Narrow Gate Apostolic Ministries INC} In the Philippines, | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4410 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.248 |
First, I don't believe johnny j christen is a pastor/evangelist. Nonetheless: JESUS IS GOD Throughout the Scriptures Jesus Christ is not only referred to as the Son of God, but also is clearly shown to be God Himself. I Am (Exodus 3:14) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM' has sent me to you. " (John 8:58) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid Himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. Immanuel/Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel. (Matthew 1:22) All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" - which means, "God with us." Mighty/Almighty (Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 10:21) A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. (Matthew 28:18) "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me." (Revelation 1:8) I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:13-15) In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time - God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. (for further reference to God as King of kings, see Ps 136:3 and Deut 10:17) (Revelation 17:14) They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Alpha and Omega / First and Last (Revelation 1:7-8) Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, " who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation1:17-18) ... "I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One, I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! (Revelation 22:12-13) "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Revelation 22:20) He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. (Revelation 2:8) These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. (Isaiah 48:12) "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last." | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4411 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.248 |
continued Full Deity (Colossians 2:9) For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. (1 Timothy 1:15-17) Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. In Timothy 1:15-17, Paul is speaking of Jesus. Since he continues in the very next sentence in the same paragraph "Now to the King...., it stands to reason Paul is still speaking of Jesus. Worship (Matthew 28:17) And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshipped Him. (Philippians 2:5-11) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus very knee should bow, in heaven and on earth tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Isaiah 45:22-23) "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked; Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4412 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.248 |
GOD IS SPIRIT. The Spirit has the attributes of God : eternal, having neither beginning nor end (Hebrews 9:14), omni-potent, having all power (Luke 1:35); omni-present, being everywhere at the same time (Psalm 139:7); and omni-scient, understanding all matters ( 1 Corinthians 2:10,11). The Holy Spirit : speaks (Acts 13:2), intercedes (Romans 8:26), testifies (John 15:26) guides (John 16:13), commands (Acts 16:6,7), appoints (Acts 20:28), leads (Romans 8:14), reproves and convicts of sin (John 16:8). seals God's promise in believers' hearts (Ephesians 1:13-14) shapes the individual's and community's life to Christ's (Romans 8:1-17) The Spirit shows up in the Old Testament (OT), especially in the prophets' books. The OT does not use nepesh (soul of earthly beings) to describe God. It uses ruach. The OT does not present ruach as the mediator between God and humans. The Spirit is God at work, not a go-between. The word ruach is a movement of air (wind, breath) There are 'general' references to the Spirit of God, such as in Gen 44:38 on the lips of a non-believer. When that happens, the term may have been used to mean 'divine spirit', a recognition that a god (whomever the god is) is at work, that some sort of power or authority beyond the usual is rather obviously causing things to happen. The Messiah is said by Isaiah to be specially endowed with the Spirit : Isaiah 11:2; 42:1; 61:1. The Spirit is seen as God's presence in the hearts of each believer : Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7. In Ezekiel (37:9) and Isaiah (34:16; 48:16; 63:10), there is a hint of personality, unlike in the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures. Thomas was absolutely correct when he cried to Jesus "my Lord and my God". (John 20:28) "Spell this out in capital letters: THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON. He is not enthusiasm. He is not courage. He is not energy. He is not the personification of all good qualities, like Jack Frost is the personification of cold weather. Actually, the Holy Spirit is not the personification of anything...... He has individuality. He is one being and not another. He has will and intelligence. He has hearing. He has knowledge and sympathy and ability to love and see and think. He can hear, speak, desire, grieve and rejoice. He is a Person." ------ A W Tozer, *The Counselor* | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4413 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.248 |
If johnny doesn't believe God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONE God, then he believes in plural Gods, and believes Jesus Christ (God) is a liar. Christianity is based on One God, not three. Christ assumed functions and claimed prerogatives which only a divine being could have done. He claimed, for instance, to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12), to teach the truth (Matthew 5:22), to bestow life (John 5:21),and to judge the world at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-46). This last assertion was truly a bold claim; surely only a God could untangle the confused motives of men and peer with unadulterated vision into the tortured wellsprings of human behavior and render an equitable verdict on a man's entire life. Certainly no human being could make such a claim (I Corinthians 4:5). If Christ is to be the world's judge, he must necessarily be divine. Probably the boldest assertion Christ ever made about his divinity was to the Jews in John 8:56-59. When Jesus remarked that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, the Jews retorted: "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?". Jesus replied: "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." The designation, "I am", was a special title in the Jewish tradition reserved for God, alone; it was, indeed, the divine first name, the name God told Moses in Exodus 3:14 to tell the Israelites just before the Exodus from Egypt. By using this title for himself, Jesus made what was to a Jew, the strongest possible claim to deity. It was no wonder that they took up stones to throw at him (verse 59). Later, when Christ was tried before Pilate, his Jewish prosecutors cried: "We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God" John 19:7. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1464 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.236.3 |
Nice try godchild but you havent answered my questions!!! NOW!!! I will tear up my license to preach, move to the location of your Church or Ministry with my family, Join your Church or Ministry and faithfully support it until the day I die, {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles {{{specifically and expressly taught}}} {in NT Scripture} that { We worship one God “in three persons” or “three persons” in one God} Or {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles {{{specifically and expressly}}} taught {in NT Scripture} that {. Their are three" separate” and “distinct individual persons” in the Godhead,. “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” and these three are one. Or {If} you can present to me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles {{{specifically and expressly taught}}} {in NT Scripture} that {God the Father is the First person of the Godhead} {God the Son is the second person of the Godhead} and {God the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Godhead}. And {IF} You can show me at least one NT Convert in the 27 Epistles of the NT canon that has ever been Baptized in the {Trinitarian baptismal formula} found in Mat 28:19 Yours in Christ Pastor/Evangelist Johnny J Christen, of {The Straight and Narrow Gate Apostolic Ministries INC} In the Philippines | ||
| inkorrekt Advanced Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 798 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.59.45.188 |
Alright let us all be baptised according to the epistle of CALLED.I need to be baptized the 3rd time. Will this be approved by God? | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4465 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.249.14 |
John the Baptist baptized for the remission of sins, required by God the Father. When they learned about Jesus Christ, they were baptized in His name, and received the Holy Spirit. It's too bad that called doesn't get it. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1467 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 203.177.201.219 |
quote of godchild""""they were baptized in His name, and received the Holy Spirit. It's too bad that called doesn't get it. Yes they were {{{{{{ALL}}}}}} Baptized in His Name acts 2:38 Both Jew and Gentile!!! I wish you and all the other Trinitarians on factnet would get it!!!! You wasen't Baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins Acts 2:38 was you godchild? | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4483 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.55.28 |
Well, actually, I was. There is one baptism. It includes forgiveness of sins (as soon as you ask, God forgives and forgets)it is washed away. How can one acknowledge God without acknowledging you are a sinner? It SHOULD be glaringly evident every day; and that is why we ask for His forgiveness and guidance (by the Holy Spirit) each and every day. If I forget, I wind up doing things my way and what a mess that becomes. The baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was an acknowledgment by those people that Jesus is God. Not many gods, one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Do you think Jesus taught plurality of Gods? Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you think He was just a good teacher, physician and miracle worker? God told us to hear Jesus. Was God lying? When Jesus said "I and my Father are One," was He lying? Did God tell you to listen to a liar? When Mary told the people to listen to her son, was she lying? They idolized her, and she said in effect, "No, no me; Him" When all the prophets of old told about the coming of a messiah, were they lying? | ||
| friend Intermediate Member Username: friend Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
"as soon as you ask, God forgives and forgets" So you have to ask? I thought God's grace could not be earned or deserved. There is no "magic formula" to salvation. It is all about relationship. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1471 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 124.6.159.253 |
godchild If you are not Water baptized Acts 2:38 as was each and every NT Convert weather Jew or Gentile you are not covered by the Blood of THE SON OF GOD!!! """{There is one baptism}. It includes forgiveness of sins ({{as soon as you ask}}}, {{{God forgives and forgets}})it is washed away. PLEASE SHOW ME THIS ONE BAPTISM IN SCRIPTURE!!! NO WHERE DOSE THE SCRIPTURE TEACH THIS LIE SISTER!!! This is a Deep Deception straight from the Enemy! | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4516 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.55.158 |
"Ask and it shall be given. Seek, and ye shall find." This is scripture. If you offend someone, don't you go to them and ask forgiveness and try to make amends. Would we do less for God? If you do this with a pure heart, it is not like a payment for a job well done. Salvation is a free gift. Jesus told us what to pray. Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. They kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen Even Jesus asked the Father to forgive us. "Forgive them, Father. For they know not what they do." He was beseeching the Father in our behalf. If it wasn't necessary to ask, why did He do it? Ephesians 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. Acts 2:38-41 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." Many wish to believe/teach that Peter said repent and be baptized "because of" the remission of sins. There is, however, not a single instance of the Greek word eis in the KJV ever translated as "because of." Nor is there apparently any version of the Bible that translates Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized . . . because of the remission of sins." <there> Matthew 26:28. There Jesus said His blood "is shed for many for the remission of sins." What did He mean by that? Would He shed His blood because people already had forgiveness or in order that they might obtain it? If Jesus used the word/phrase to mean "in order to receive remission of sins," then is it not reasonable to conclude that Peter, by inspiration of the Spirit sent by Jesus, would mean the exact same thing when he used the exact same phrase? | ||
| friend Intermediate Member Username: friend Post Number: 308 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
Are you saying that God's forgiveness is totally and completely dependant upon our forgiving others? In other words, to be "saved" one has to be completely sure they have forgiven ALL their enemies? I really don't see the "ask and it shall..." verse to be regarding salvation so much. My thoughts are that we ask forgiveness from God not for salvation, but instead as a product of salvation. We ask forgiveness both from God and from others out of love, not because of fire insurance. Peace! | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4525 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.247.119 |
Do you agree that in order to repent, you must acknowledge the sin? Definitions of repent in the Hebrews (khaw-taw'): Bear the blame, offer for sin, make reconciliation, to be sorry, restore. Repent in the Greek: To care afterwards, regret, morally to fell compunction. Quote: we ask forgiveness from God not for salvation, but instead as a product of salvation. Do you think the baptism as taught in the Bible should be excluded, or unimportant? Do you believe we must accept Christ for salvation? Did those people receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized? What made them want to be if they were saved already? Jesus told the disciples to baptize them, to teach them all that He had commanded them. What do you think this means? Repentance was taught in the Old Testament; Jesus came to fulfill the law (not erase it). The people knew those laws include repentance. True repentance means you have a desire to ask for forgiveness. Ex: Say a person kills your family. Years later you see that person. If they ask for your forgiveness (because they are repentant), what does the Bible tell you to do? Forgive them. Right? What if the person is not repentant, but just wants you to forget about it and move on? Does a person keep sinning and tell God "get over it"? Does a person say to God, "Now, I want to be in heaven, but you've got to let me do whatever I want, not what you want from me. I can even tell people I want to please there is no God." Throughout the Bible, God asked for OBEDIENCE. "Obey my commandments". Do we ignore that? Faith without works is dead. Loving one another, which includes being repentant and asking forgiveness is a natural part of that. When we receive salvation, then our sins are covered by the blood of Christ. The unforgiveable sin is grieving the Holy Spirit. Having an unrepentant heart certainly grieves the Spirit. Salvation is free. That gift includes allowing the Holy Spirit to do his work through us. Guilt is satan's tool. By asking for forgiveness when we sin, we KNOW we are forgiven and do not hold onto feelings of guilt. Asking for forgiveness is an acknowledgment that only God has the power to forgive. We are honoring Him. Whatever Love we have is because of Him, not anything we do. God is love! I don't see that as "fire insurance". | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1472 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 124.6.168.184 |
Godchild I always see a lot of fancy theological answers coming from you, but you never directly answer any question simply Yes or No!!! Why is that? Have you EVER Publicly confessed your Faith in water Baptism in the name of the Lord as did each and every NT Convert recorded in scripture YES OR NO????????? Please just simply answer this question!!! P Johnny PLEASE STOP ADDING LONG STRINGS OF QUESTION MARKS WITHOUT A SPACE IN BETWEEN THEM. IT MAKES THE BROWSER WINDOW RUN OFF THE PAGE. (Message edited by admin on February 05, 2007) | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1473 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 222.127.65.2 |
Sorry | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1474 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 222.127.65.2 |
You know what, I give up!!! You people will never learn, all of you just keep fighting each other and none of you know what the hell you believe! I’m finished trying to get through to you people, it would be easier training monkeys to become brain sergeants! I’m out of here for good! Enjoy your unbiblical madness!!! I pray you people wake the hell up one day!!! I will not waste one more minute in this nuthouse!!! Johnny | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1430 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.72.72 |
hey called don't leave yet. maybe i am not done trying to convert you yet. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 2304 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.16 |
"I will not waste one more minute in this nuthouse!!! " We can only hope. I also hope the folks in the Philippines will check you out before they start giving you their money. | ||
| still_small_voice Senior Member Username: still_small_voice Post Number: 1171 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = Godhead, elsewhere mentioned in scripture. | ||
| still_small_voice Senior Member Username: still_small_voice Post Number: 1172 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
What are you 'called'? oneness? What do you teach? | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 750 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Called , Johnny said... "I’m out of here for good!" This proves that God DOES answer Prayers. Thank God- One less Catholic basher to deal with! | ||
| still_small_voice Senior Member Username: still_small_voice Post Number: 1174 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.76 |
"it would be easier training monkeys to become brain sergeants!" Brain sergeants of brain surgeons? I do not think the world needs anymore brain sergeants, that is like cultism, freudian slip there? | ||
| catholic_man Intermediate Member Username: catholic_man Post Number: 245 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 72.161.125.18 |
Like I've said in other posts, I would rather follow the first 300 years of christianity and the early church fathers than the last 300 years. The early church was very clear on this point. We've pointed out the Didache, a very early church document, that Johnny just doesn't want to accept. It is clear that the Trinity was taught. I'm glad to see all of the biblical references from those of you who posted. I agree, the usage of the 'Name of Jesus' in the book of Acts was to emphasize that Jesus was God...part of the Godhead bodily. God bless! | ||
| plow_deep Advanced Member Username: plow_deep Post Number: 666 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.78.35.46 |
Hey Johnny, Its sad to see you go. You and me have many differences of opinions on what we believe but thats human nature. You have every right to believe as you choose, just as anyone here does. Its a continual learning experience for me and sometimes the Lord awakens me to my errors when and if He so chooses. Sometimes I look at some of my previous posts and think hmmm, that woud've been better left unsaid after further study on my part. Thank you for starting some interesting links, you had quite a knack for doing that and it was entertaining to see all the differences of opinions. Thank you for warning me about the Roman Catholic Church, you spurred me into reading alot of catholic sites and getting my eyes opened wide on some of the beliefs. I had no idea. Thanks! Thank the Lord Jesus Christ I'm not catholic and the catholic church does not stand in authority between God and man. The pope is not god on earth. Thank you Jesus for the reformation and sola scripture. Even with all its worts its sooooo much better for anyone interested in learning of Jesus Christ, than to be held slave to the apostate traditions of the Roman church. Each to his own with fear and trembling and only God will judge in the end. Jesus bless you | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1488 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
hey Plow how you doing Brother its been a long time! i pray all is well with you and your family! Brother i know you like to study so id like you to consider what i wrote in the thread keeping the true sabbath! its kind of long but realy hard to come against if people want to be honest which is realy hard to find here on factnet but you have always been up front with me so let me know what you think ok! God Bless johnny | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 434 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, Read 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.(KJV) Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1489 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
1 john 5:7 was added by the RCC!!! It is found no where in any Greek Manuscripts | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 439 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, Can you prove to me beyond any doubt that you can not find 1 John 5:7 on the Byzantine Manuscripts from Antioch Syria used for the king James translation of the English Bible. I believe that in the King James translation of the bible they had been very careful not to add, take or change anything from the Greek Manuscripts. Please provide the evidence that this verse is not in the Greek Manuscripts. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1490 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245 http://www.godglorified.com/1_john_57.htm their are many many others you can look up for yourself! you realize that the trinity baptism was never once practiced by the Apostles themselfs! dosen't that strick you as strangs? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1491 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245 http://www.godglorified.com/1_john_57.htm their are many many others you can look up for yourself! you realize that the trinity baptism was never once practiced by the Apostles themselfs! dosen't that strick you as strangs? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1492 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245 http://www.godglorified.com/1_john_57.htm their are many many others you can look up for yourself! you realize that the trinity baptism was never once practiced by the Apostles themselfs! dosen't that strick you as strangs? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1493 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/religion/spurious.htm check this out brother | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1494 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
1992: "Three Witnesses in Heaven" in 1 John 5:7 (original forgery in one form perhaps 5th century AD, hardened approx. 800) forged in Greek to confute Bible Scholar about 1520. A whole Greek manuscript was forged, with an "inserted" verse, to confute the great Scripture scholar Erasmus Desiderius (1466-1536), and to bolster the Trinity dogma. According to modern researcher Bruce M. Metzger, Erasmus had researched many old Greek manuscripts, and he deliberately kept out of his Greek New Testament this verse in the 1st Epistle of John, 5:7:- "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." When its omission was protested, he said that he had not seen one Greek manuscript with that verse in. (It had been inserted into Latin translations.) Some time later, a Greek manuscript was supposedly unearthed (now believed to have been forged around 1520 in Oxford by a Franciscan friar named Froy or Roy) which included that verse. In his third edition, Erasmus inserted that verse, but also footnoted his suspicions that the manuscript had been prepared to confute him. (page 101) In the years since, of all the thousands of Greek manuscripts examined, only three others are known to contain this spurious passage. (p 101) The passage does not appear in manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate before about A.D. 800. Pope Leo XIII [1878-1903] ruled that it was not safe to deny it was authentic. But modern Roman Catholic scholars recognise that it does not belong in the Greek Testament. (p 102) -- based on The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, by Bruce M. METZGER (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, at Princeton Theological Seminary), Oxford University Press, New York and Oxford, 3rd edition, 1992, (Dewey 225.48), pp 101-3 Spurious verse 1 John 5:7 multiplied, quoted, now being reluctantly discarded. From the corrupt Latin version (which the RCC leaders declare is "authentic") the spurious verse was forced into the Catholic Douay-Rheims English translation of the New Testament dated 1582. Possibly because of the desire to bolster the trinity doctrine, and in spite of the warning footnote of Erasmus, it came into the Anglican King James translation of 1611. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1495 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
1992: "Three Witnesses in Heaven" in 1 John 5:7 (original forgery in one form perhaps 5th century AD, hardened approx. 800) forged in Greek to confute Bible Scholar about 1520. A whole Greek manuscript was forged, with an "inserted" verse, to confute the great Scripture scholar Erasmus Desiderius (1466-1536), and to bolster the Trinity dogma. According to modern researcher Bruce M. Metzger, Erasmus had researched many old Greek manuscripts, and he deliberately kept out of his Greek New Testament this verse in the 1st Epistle of John, 5:7:- "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." When its omission was protested, he said that he had not seen one Greek manuscript with that verse in. (It had been inserted into Latin translations.) Some time later, a Greek manuscript was supposedly unearthed (now believed to have been forged around 1520 in Oxford by a Franciscan friar named Froy or Roy) which included that verse. In his third edition, Erasmus inserted that verse, but also footnoted his suspicions that the manuscript had been prepared to confute him. (page 101) In the years since, of all the thousands of Greek manuscripts examined, only three others are known to contain this spurious passage. (p 101) The passage does not appear in manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate before about A.D. 800. Pope Leo XIII [1878-1903] ruled that it was not safe to deny it was authentic. But modern Roman Catholic scholars recognise that it does not belong in the Greek Testament. (p 102) -- based on The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, by Bruce M. METZGER (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, at Princeton Theological Seminary), Oxford University Press, New York and Oxford, 3rd edition, 1992, (Dewey 225.48), pp 101-3 Spurious verse 1 John 5:7 multiplied, quoted, now being reluctantly discarded. From the corrupt Latin version (which the RCC leaders declare is "authentic") the spurious verse was forced into the Catholic Douay-Rheims English translation of the New Testament dated 1582. Possibly because of the desire to bolster the trinity doctrine, and in spite of the warning footnote of Erasmus, it came into the Anglican King James translation of 1611. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1496 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
It had been and is being used to support the Trinity doctrine, including by St Thomas Aquinas, in Summa Contra Gentiles (written 1259-1264 and used in Catholic seminary training at times for centuries), Book 4, chapter 15, section 1, on page 104 in the Image Books 1957 paperback. The inserted verse probably helped deceive other Christians such as the Celtic Churches of Great Britain and Ireland, and the Waldenses or Vaudois of south-central Europe who had the Bible in the ethnic language and kept the Saturday Sabbath (extermination order issued AD 1487), French bible translator Lefevre and reformer Berquin (martyred 1529), and Martin Luther (1483-1546), who fought the selling of indulgences, translated the Bible into German, and was one of the most important leaders of the Reformation. Regarding Waldenses, Lefevre and Berquin, see The Great Controversy by E.G.White, 1998, Harvestime Books, Altamont (TN, USA). The defective Bible versions have continued to be stolidly reprinted in many languages and sold by groups like Bible Societies, Catholic Truth Society, Gideons, etc. into the early 2000s. Thankfully, it is rejected by the Wescott and Hort 1881 and other reputable Greek Testaments, and by modern multi-faith new translations. The Good News Bible (1966 and 1975) quietly removed the spurious verse 7, by giving the number 7 to the first four words of verse 8, "There are three witnesses:", and putting the number 8 to designate the rest of the old verse 8. The New Jerusalem Bible (1985) has a similar stratagem, "So there are three witnesses," to cover this embarrassing legerdemain. Ronald Knox's Catholic translation of 1945 had footnoted it "This verse does not occur in any good Greek manuscript. ..." (1957 ed., p N.T. 256), but neglected to say it occurred in hardly any Greek manuscripts! An excellent comment about this shabby affair is given by the notes in the Emphatic Diaglot: "This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifth century. It is not cited by any of the Greek ecclesiastical writers; nor by any of the early Latin fathers, even when the subjects upon which they treat would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious, and was first cited (though not as it now reads) by Virgilius Tapsensis, a Latin writer of no credit, in the latter end of the fifth century; but by whom forged, is of no great moment, as its design must be obvious to all." Link to http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/bible/compare/trinity.htm . [COMMENT: Who could deny that it had been invented to give a "third" pro-Trinity proof text? -- Religion Clarity Campaign, July 2003, revised 03 Feb 2004. COMMENT ENDS.] [Head document 1992.] | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1497 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
the reason i left factnet is becouse you people refuess to learn or accept what the Bible actully says over your personal beliefs! i wish you guys would truly study, maybe you woulden't think i was so bad if you truly proved things for yourselfs instead of rejecting things or blowing things off just becouse it don't agree with your doctrine! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.89.15.220 |
Called Please define "left Factnet"... | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1498 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
you need to do a deep study on the resurrection of Christ! and truly see just how the RCC deceived you, just See what day it actully feel on! Did you know or realize that Christ resurrected on the Sabbath and not on Pagan catholic Sun-day? theirs no such thing as {first day} of the week in the original Greek Manuscripts The day of pentecost was exactlly 50 days after the resurrection of Christ! Christ resurrection was on the first weekly Sabbath of 7 weekly Sabbaths leading up to the day of Pentecost 7 times 7=49 and the next day was Sunday the Day of Pentecost or the 50th day! you don't believe me get a calendar and mark a saturday any saturday and say to yourself that was the day of Christ resurrection, now count exactlly 50 days from that Sabbath you marked and you'll come up with Sunday the day of Pentecost! If you say that the resurrection of christ was on a sunday than counted 50 days from their than the day of Pentecost would fall on a monday and this my Brother could not be!! God Bless!!! Go ahead and check it out for yourself and get back to me!!! i can,t waite. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1499 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
hey saygoodnightgracie can you prove your sunday resurrection? You seem to be extra Bright??? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1500 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
I knew you people would not answer this or blow it of as usually!!! That only proves that you are immature baby want to be Christians!!! That is not wiling to take a true stand for Biblical truth, but will only hang on to your sad Apostate unbiblical Beliefs! The lake of fire is real going to be full! Just how can you escape it like this? If your never willing to admit your wrong, your stupid Pride is going to send you straight to hell, have a good trip and in joy! Johnny | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 440 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, Thank you for your message, I am doing some research into this matter. In the meantime you can read the following website, http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp?FROM=biblecenter It is also very interesting to see that the spanish translation, Biblia Reina-Valera 1602 says the same as the english translation, king James Version. I believe that Biblia Reina-Valera 1602 is the best spanish translation available. (1 John 5:7 is 1 Juan 5:7 in spanish.) 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.(King James Version) 1 Juan 5:7 Porque tres son los que dan testimonio en el cielo, el Padre, el Verbo, y el Espíritu Santo: y estos tres son uno. (Biblia Reina-Valera 1602) (Message edited by pilgrim on March 21, 2007) | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1503 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Yes Brother but what you are reading in both English and spanish was taken from the corrupt Latin Vulgate manuscripts of the RCC, and not from the original Greek, can you see that now? Their is no such thing as {First day} of the week in the original Greek manuscripts! Please truly study this!!! Its {First of Sabbaths} or the First weekly Sabbath! Have you counted the 50 days to Pentecost as i exolained it above! if so what did you come up with? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1504 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
There is no Sunday resurrection and the Trinity Doctrine was birthed out of the RCC through man made councils and creeds, that’s why there is no such thing as a Trinitarian baptism EVER BEING PRACTICED in the Bible! Please I beg you to truly consider these things and don’t worry what the rest of the world thinks of you! Take a true stand for Biblical truth no matter what the cost if you’re a true follower of Christ! Seriously look at just what the true biblical Apostles taught 2000 years ago than seriously look at what the so called church teaches and practices today and truly ask yourself do they match! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1505 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Truly Look at your 1611 KJV Bible, every scripture that has {First day} in it you will notice the word Day in italics! By order of King James himself! this brother lets us know that it dose not belong their or it dose not come from the original tongue, go to Matthew 1:21 and 1:25 you will notice the word JESUS in italics! Because it dose not belong!!!!!!!!!!!!! The angel did NOT come to Joseph and tell him to name that Hebrew Child JESUS!!! That’s a lie from Hell!!! go to Luke 1:31 in your KJV that angel diden’t tell Mary to call that child JESUS She was told to name that child yeshua= Salvation =Joshua in our tongue!!! And Jesus was chosen by the RCC and is not a literal translation of the true! And read just what acts 4:12 has to say about that! Go to Mark 16:9 and you will clearly see that it was Not JESUS that was risen!!! So what do we do with these facts ignore then? Blow them off and continue to go with the flow like most of the Apostate screwballs here on factnet that refuses to even consider these things! they will NEVER EVER Enter the Kingdom of God, because they have become apostate in their worldly belief system! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1506 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
matthew chapter 28 http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B40C028.htm this should explain everithing! Starting in Vayiqra/Lev. 23, we see the use of the Hebrew word Shabbaton or Sabbatwn Strongs # 7677, meaning special Shabbat or annual Set-Apart Shabbat Day. We see this term used in direct reference to the annual moadim/appointed times of Yom Teruah/Feast of Trumpets Lev./Vayiqra 23:24, the Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur Vayiqra 23:32, and the first and last days of Sukkot/Tabernacles Lev. 23:39. The word for weekly Sabbath is Shabbat, Strongs # 7676; Clearly Shabbatons are special days of annual renewal, along with the weekly day of rest known as Shabbat. But understanding the difference in the terminology between Shabbat and Shabbaton is essential in understanding the precise timing of Moshaich's rising from the tomb. In Greek there is no word for Shabbat or Shabbaton for obvious reasons. Greeks did not celebrate and honor the Shabbat. Not much has changed has it? [see “The Hidden Message Of First Timothy” available in audio at: http://store.yourarmstoisrael.org/Qstore/c000001.htm Therefore the terms for Shabbat and Shabbaton would have to be preserved in the Greek text of the Brit Chadasha by its authors. In Strongs Complete Dictionary of Bible Words under Greek #4521, Sabbatwn is said to be "of Hebrew origin" and by "extension meaning week or weeks". This is a key to understanding Yahshua's resurrection. In every Greek text where the resurrection is refereed to, the word used is the Hebrew word Shabbaton carried into the Greek text. We find this term as Sabbatwn in Matthew 28:1, Mark/Moshe 16:2, 9, Luke 24:1, Acts/MaAseh Shlechim. 20:6-7 and 1st Corinthians 16:2. Since there is no Greek words for either Shabbat or Shabbaton both Hebrew words are preserved in the inspired Greek text as Sabbatwn. Let’s look at the texts further. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1507 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Matt. 28:1 “late on Sabbatwn [weekly] as it was getting dark, [havdallah/motzei Shabbat] towards "mia twn Sabbatwn" came Miriam…Now we see the use of the word Sabbatwn twice. Since Sabbatwn is a borrowed Hebraic term identifying certain special days of the feasts, we know that this must be referring to one of the 7 weekly Shabbaths between Unleavened Bread and Shavout/Pentecost, during the counting of the omer. Furthermore the Greek word mia does not mean first as is improperly translated. It means one. Mia is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word echad (Strongs #3391). It can mean first in some syntax BUT not in the way it is used in the Brit Chadasha to prove a Sun Day resurrection. In order for mia to mean Sun Day, the Greek word mia would have to be used in conjunction with the Greek word hemera meaning “day”. In other words the Greek “mia hemera” can mean “first day”, as in the “first day” in a numerical sequence of days. BUT here’s the problem with those who teach a first day/Sun Day resurrection. The word DAY has been added to all the resurrection texts like Matt./Matityahu 28:1, Mark/Moshe 16:2 John/Yochanan 20:1, Luke/Lukus 24:1 where the Greek reads mia twn sabbatwn (one of weeks) or mia sabbatwn (one weeks) with the word day added in italics, meaning it is not in the inspired Greek text. The term mia twn sabbatwn again appears without the word day which has been added. Since the Greek word for day hemera does not appear IN ANY OF THE GOOD NEWS TEXTS ABOUT YAHSHUA'S RISING, we can easily conclude that the translators have had and continue to have an agenda in favor of justifying a Sun Day worship experience. But wait! There’s more. The true Greek word for absolute one as in a sequence of numbers is not the word mia but protos, which means first (Strongs # 4413) as in first, foremost, in a sequence, first as in firstborn or firstly. If the texts of the Brit Chadasha/Renewed Covenant were referring to a Sun Day resurrection, the word that would have definitively done so is protos. When protos is used as first in a sequential order it does not need the added noun hemera/day in order to identify the day as Sun Day. Using protos “on the first” would have been sufficient. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1508 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Rather than using protos hemera or “first day”, the Greek texts use only mia, which primarily means one of, not first, (especially without the added identifier herema) and connects the word mia to the Hebrew word Shabbaton. In all resurrection texts it is said that Yahshua rose mia twn sabbatwn or mia sabbatown. In addition some resurrection texts like Matityahu/Matthew 28:1 give us clear additional insight that Yahshua’s ressurection was at the ending or exiting of the weekly 7th day Shabbat as well. So by usage of the term mia twn sabbatwn the Hebrew writers of the Brit Chadasha are making it evidently clear that Moshaich’s resurrection took place on a day that was both a weekly Shabbat, as well as an annual Shabbaton. To translate the term mia twn sabbatwn as “the first day” of the week, is not only changing the primary meaning of the word mia it IGNORES THE VERY FACT that the Hebraic term shabbaton even exists in the Greek text as sabbatwn! This practice by the Baal deceived translators, have both added and left out or subtracted words to the inspired Greek texts, a sin strictly forbidden in Deut./Devarim 12:32, Rev 22:18-19 and Jeremiah 8:8, a sin for which the translators may well burn in Yahweh’s Lake Of Fire, as it is said that such a one will inherit the plagues or curses/kelalot, contained in the Word of Yahweh. I know you guys will never accept this! and this is why the lake of fire will be so full!!! http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/shabbat/?page=hidden_agenda_of_baal&type=3 | ||
| egk Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 377 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Called, Their is no such thing as First day of the week in the original Greek manuscripts! Please truly study this!!! Its First of Sabbaths or the First weekly Sabbath! We've been over this before. The Greeks did not have a concept of 'week,' therefore they referred to the day by how many days to or from certain days in the month it was (The Romans did the same thing and we remember this in the phrase the Ides of March.) The Jews speaking Greek, simply counted from the Sabbath, so the first of the Sabbaths was the day after the Sabbath or Sunday. One of the gospels states that Jesus rose on the first of the Sabbaths, hence on Sunday. EGK | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 802 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Pilgrim 1 john 5:7 issue is much ado about nothing.The JW,s,mormons and others who don,t have a clue about historical Christianity try and use this nonsense to disprove the trinity Saint Irenaues and Saint Polycarp were Direct disciples of Saint John himself a and both of them taught the trinity and Irenaues tells us it was directly taught by St. John during his stay in Asia . This coupled with many many other Saints tells us that the Trinity was accepted well before the 3rd century Here are a few writings of the Early Fathers God is One in Three Divine Persons "[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen." Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157). Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . There is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 [A.D. 110]. "For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;' He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180). Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155). Notice that these teachings were promulgated before the New Testament came into existance. Scripture existed, but it hadn't been decided as yet what to include in the Canon. Still, the teaching was very clear on what early Christians thought about the Trinity. Those who question the canon process of the Bible are going to have to ultimately question the whole Bible itself because as Christians we HAVE to believe that this whole process HAD to be guided by the HOLY SPIRIT Here is a good explanation of the epistle of John http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/08438A.TXT I wish you a Blessed Day! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1509 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Notice that these teachings were promulgated before the New Testament came into existance. Scripture existed, but it hadn't been decided as yet what to include in the Canon. Still, the teaching was very clear on what early Christians thought about the Trinity. Nice try Pro but again the RCC has been proven over and over AGAIN to be Apostate in its unbiblical teachings and practices, and the quotes of your so called catholic church fathers have nothing whatsoever to do with what the True Apostles chosen by Christ himself actually taught and practiced in Scripture! Your man made religious origination practices pure paganism and idolatry! And true Christians need to wake up to this stone cold fact! Would you tell me that the {First day} of the week truly belongs in your bible bob? I Charge you in the name of Christ to tell the people the truth on what these scriptures truly mean or render in the ordinal Greek Bob! If not you will have to answer to Christ himself! Johnny and why haven't you taken my Personal Challenge to the Trinitarian world at large??? Because it can't be done!!! | ||
| egk Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Called, Please locate a copy of the Lidell-Scott Lexicon of Classical Greek or a copy of the Arndt-Gringer (sp) Lexicon of NT Greek and you'll see that mia sabbatom is to be translated the first day of the week. The good Rabbi you quoted may know his Hebrew, but his Greek knowledge is deficit. EGK | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1510 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Let me help you Bob Without a First day of the week {Sunday resurrection} or a {Trinitarian baptism}ever being practiced in the scripture, or 1 john 5:7 being added, your Roman catholic Trinitarian doctrine is blown clean into Hell!!! SEVEN WEEKLY SABBATWNS Since when does the word Shabbat or Shabbaton refer to Sun Day? Or in what language does Shabbat and Shabbaton magically become Sun Day? Scripture does not speak of protos herema but rather mia twn Sabbatwn “one of the Shabbaths.” Which one? Glad you asked! The “official” Shabbatons are Teruah/Trumpets, Kippurim Atonement, and the first and last days of Sukkot. However over time the term Shabbaton came to refer to all the important annual Shabbat days in Israel that were not weekly Shabbats. As such, the seven weekly Shabbats between Unleavened Bread and Shavout/Pentecost are all considered Shabbatons, or special weekly Shabbats. This 50-day period is known as "sefirat ha-omer" or the counting of the omer (Lev. 23:16). During these seven weekly Shabbats, the counting would be ongoing, and the Day of Shavout/Weeks will have fully come on the 50th day after the weekly Shabbat during the Feast of Unleavened Bread or after seven completed weeks plus one day. Keeping in mind that Matt 28:1 mentions two Sabbatwn s we can see that Messiah’s resurrection was at the end of the weekly Shabbat, specifically one (mia) of the seven weekly Shabbats (shabbatons) during the counting of the omer, between the week of Unleavened Bread and Shavout/Pentecost. Which one of the seven weekly Shabbats? Obviously the first one, since He died during the week of the Unleavened Bread and rose that same week on the weekly Shabbat, the first of seven Sabbatwns between the 50 days. This calculation works out in both the Sadducee and Pharisaic reckoning. How so? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1511 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Let me help you Bob Without a First day of the week {Sunday resurrection} or a {Trinitarian baptism}ever being practiced in the scripture, or 1 john 5:7 being added, your Roman catholic Trinitarian doctrine is blown clean into Hell!!! SEVEN WEEKLY SABBATWNS Since when does the word Shabbat or Shabbaton refer to Sun Day? Or in what language does Shabbat and Shabbaton magically become Sun Day? Scripture does not speak of protos herema but rather mia twn Sabbatwn “one of the Shabbaths.” Which one? Glad you asked! The “official” Shabbatons are Teruah/Trumpets, Kippurim Atonement, and the first and last days of Sukkot. However over time the term Shabbaton came to refer to all the important annual Shabbat days in Israel that were not weekly Shabbats. As such, the seven weekly Shabbats between Unleavened Bread and Shavout/Pentecost are all considered Shabbatons, or special weekly Shabbats. This 50-day period is known as "sefirat ha-omer" or the counting of the omer (Lev. 23:16). During these seven weekly Shabbats, the counting would be ongoing, and the Day of Shavout/Weeks will have fully come on the 50th day after the weekly Shabbat during the Feast of Unleavened Bread or after seven completed weeks plus one day. Keeping in mind that Matt 28:1 mentions two Sabbatwn s we can see that Messiah’s resurrection was at the end of the weekly Shabbat, specifically one (mia) of the seven weekly Shabbats (shabbatons) during the counting of the omer, between the week of Unleavened Bread and Shavout/Pentecost. Which one of the seven weekly Shabbats? Obviously the first one, since He died during the week of the Unleavened Bread and rose that same week on the weekly Shabbat, the first of seven Sabbatwns between the 50 days. This calculation works out in both the Sadducee and Pharisaic reckoning. How so? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1512 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
If the Sadducees are right, and the reckoning starts on the day after the weekly Shabbat of the week of Unleavened Bread, (just at sundown of the weekly Shabbat, which would have commenced a first day counting) that weekly Shabbat would have been weekly Shabbaton number one right at sudown. If the Pharisees are correct, and the counting begins after the day of Unleavened Bread or the 16th of Aviv, that week’s weekly Shabbat was also the first of seven Sabbatwns during the 50 days of counting. Remember that scripture is clear that Yahshua rose at the end of the weekly Shabbat, all the while also rising on mia twn Sabbatwn (one of the 7 Sabbaths between Unleavened Bread and Shavout/Pentecost) as well! Actually, Matt 28:1 best reads as follows: “after the Shabbat ‘one of the weeks’ ”, meaning one of the seven weekly Shabbats during the counting of the omer, also known as Shabbatons or Sabbatwns. So the correct scriptural understanding of mia twn sabbatwn would fit either method of counting. We see this further illustrated in Acts 20:6-7, where Unleavened Bread has just passed into the first of the seven weekly Shabbatons between Unleavened Bread and Pentecost, and Luke the Ephraimite tells us that Rav Shaul/Paul gathered with and taught the disciples on mia twn sabbatwn, with once again the added word day appearing in italics NOT BEING IN THE ORGINAL GREEK TEXT. So we see the talmidim meeting on the first of seven weekly Shabbats during the counting of the omer. The Jews of the first century considered all 50 days as days of Sabbatwn, as witnessed by the usage of the term “fully come” in Acts 2:1. The 50th day of Pentecost was said to be “fully come”, as opposed to the other 49 smaller comings of Pentecost, during that 50 day period. The word fully or accomplished, is the Greek word sumplero Strongs # 4845, meaning to complete, fill up or sum total the 50 days of Sabbatwn. Admittedly, the Leviticus 23 Shabbatons were limited to three particular feasts but in Hebraic understanding both then and now, the Passover season does not culminate until Shavout. The entire 50 days is known as the “season of our redemption”, and the traditional rabbis teach that Passover was not completed until Shavout and the giving of Torah on Mt. Horeb. Scripture is clear in that Messiah’s disciples are to pursue, grasp and embrace the truth. Sun Day church worship is not a Renewed Covenant sacrament but rather an infiltration of the solar sky deity Baal/lord worship into the Renewed Covenant Israelite ecclesia. Nevertheless, it is still Yahshua the King over all Yisrael, who in these last days is surely purifying the sons of Levi and their students as a refiners fire, through the correction of His Ruach HaKodesh. this is called True Teaching Bob!!! Stop Deceiving people and come out from among them Selah | ||
| egk Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 379 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Called, Please stop typing and look up my 2 last posts and find the books I referred to. It will clear up this issue for you. EGK | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 803 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny ""quotes of your so called catholic church fathers have nothing whatsoever to do with what the True Apostles chosen by Christ himself actually taught" I hate to break the news to you Johnny. Don,t you realize that the early Church fathers were involved in the Bible canon process and they were ALL Catholic? BTW they battled against the Arians who denied the Trinity also. Got to go Mass at 11 am I wish you a Blessed day! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1514 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
I hate to break the news to you Johnny. Don,t you realize that the early Church fathers were involved in the Bible canon process and they were ALL Catholic? yes i do relize that Bob and its a scary though for me!!! | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 804 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
We rely on the Church guided by the Holy Spirit to tell us that Scriptures were written by the Apostles. There is no proof other then the witness of the Church and its fathers that tells us otherwise The Apostles wrote letters to The Church in various regions not different churches. Think about it? It was all one Church, then. Just one Catholic "universal" Church through out the world. This continued for over the first 1500 plus years of Christianity The Catholic Church is the same, continuous Church that has existed from the time of the Apostles. So,to say that the Apostles wrote letters to the Church before The Catholic Church existed is like saying that the Apostles wrote letters to the Church before The Church (or even the Apostles) existed. We see the word Catholic -that means "universal " being used by Saint Polycarp and Iganatius who was a direct Disciple of the Apostle Saint John "See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). "[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155). By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1515 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Bob I have nothing personally against you!!! But I have a lot against false teaching and Deception So I will ask you again in front of everyone!!! dose every NT scripture that states { The First day of the week} in our bibles truly and actually come from the original Greek manuscripts! And if we did take these scriptures from the original Greek Manuscripts would we have a Sunday resurrection? Or Sunday worshop? I have shown that { The First day of the week} dose not exist in ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPTS which the NT was originally written in !!! So would you like to admit for me and everyone else that the translation that we have in our English Bibles today actually comes from the Vulgate Latin manuscripts of the RCC and not from the original Greek manuscripts that the NT was originally written in , Please answer this guestion honestly and with a sincere heart Bob! And please do not avoid answering this post as you have many of my post in the past!Thank you and Be Blessed Johnny | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1516 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Bob I have nothing personally against you!!! But I have a lot against false teaching and Deception So I will ask you again in front of everyone!!! dose every NT scripture that states { The First day of the week} in our bibles truly and actually come from the original Greek manuscripts! And if we did take these scriptures from the original Greek Manuscripts would we have a Sunday resurrection? Or Sunday worshop? I have shown that { The First day of the week} dose not exist in ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPTS which the NT was originally written in !!! So would you like to admit for me and everyone else that the translation that we have in our English Bibles today actually comes from the Vulgate Latin manuscripts of the RCC and not from the original Greek manuscripts that the NT was originally written in , Please answer this guestion honestly and with a sincere heart Bob! And please do not avoid answering this post as you have many of my post in the past!Thank you and Be Blessed Johnny | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 805 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny and EGK Johnny ,I,m off on business for most of the day but,If you refer to EGK,s post #377 and #378 it should help you understand. Perhaps EGK will have some time today to help you more on this EGK, Sorry to throw this on you Dear Brother,but I,m just a simpleton sometimes -;;) Peace in Christ | ||
| egk Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 380 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Johnny, Get an ancient Greek-English or Greek-Spanish lexicon and see how these terms are translated. EGK | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1517 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Yes Bob I completely agree with you here! Except one thing , we are the walking living breathing church of CHRIST, The scripture makes it abundantly clear that God does not live in temples made with the hands of man, know ye not that ye are the temple of God and the spirit of God dwelleth in you!? So you see Bob the universal church as you put it is not a man made structure but a living breaching human organism or body made up of all true Spirit filled believers on the face of the earth! But your ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches that there is no salvation outside of her man made structure or religious origination, where you must bow down to her Pope’s as onto Christ himself, and call them Holy Father and kiss his ring, have you Catholics ever seen Matthew 23:9??? Where you go to Mass and sacrifice our lord and savor over and over and over when the scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ offered himself ONCE AND FOR ALL Bob and this is never to be repeated again in anyway shape or forum!!! It’s an abomination in the sight of God bob, And Its Wednesday and you just told me that you was going to an 11 o’clock Mass right! During this mass didn’t your priest call Christ down and offer him to the Father as a living sacrifice Bob, have you ever read in the book of Hebrews just what it will cost us if we sacrifice Christ afresh Bob??? Do you realize that partaken of the Lords supper is a once a year event on the night he was betrayed! And you are to eat the bread {and} drink the wine! Did your priest give you wine this evening with the bread and if so why is this being done outside of the Passover that we are commanded to keep by the Apostle Paul in 1 corinthians5:7-8 and why has your man made religion replaced this NT Passover with Pagan Easter sun-day???Well that’s enough for now Bob, just a few things to think about Be Blessed Johnny | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1518 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.11.79 |
Hi EGK I’m sorry I haven’t gotten back to you sooner! I hear what you’re saying but there is way to much strong evidence against this teaching of yours! And like I explained in my post if you take a calendar and mark a Saturday as the day of Christ resurrection 3 pm the ninth hour and counted exactly 50 days from their you would arrive at Pentecost Sunday! If you started with a Sunday resurrection and counted exactly 50 days from their you would wind up with a Pentecost Monday and that just wouldn’t work would it brother? Christ resurrected on the first Sabbath of 7 Sabbath leading up to the Day of Pentecost the 50th day!!!! 7 times 7 = 49 and the next day being Pentecost Sunday would be the 50th!!! It’s Perfect, Full proof, if you have a calendar and can count up to 50 you can’t go wrong my Brother, neither could you come up with any other conclusion, it just don’t get any better than that dose it EGK God bless you Johnny called | ||
| egk Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 382 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Johnny, Don't believe me. Get a lexicon of the ancient Greek language and look up the word for sabbath. You'll find that it was used by the Greek speaking Jews to specify the days of the weeks. EGK | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 441 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called: I am still researching why 1 John 5:7 is in the bible. I can only discuss one thing at the time so I will just discuss 1 John 5:7 case for its inclusion in the Bible. Look at the following website, http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/1John5-7.html Read the ' Trail of Evidence' from the above website for the inclusion of 1 John 5:7 in the Bible. "1 John 5:7 was in the first English Bible by John Wycliffe in 1380, in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1525, the Coverdale Bible of 1535, Matthew’s Bible of 1537, the Taverner Bible of 1539, the Great Bible of 1539, the Geneva New Testament of 1557, the Bishop’s Bible of 1568, and the Authorized Version of 1611." | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 442 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, Please look at this two websites as well. I am still researching because I want to find out the truth. http://logosresourcepages.org/Versions/johannine.htm http://www.scionofzion.com/1_john_5_78.htm | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 443 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
pro610, Thanks for the link and your message! Today, I just manage to read quickly though everything that was posted yesterday. Called, Which Bible translations would you recommend in the following languages: English, spanish, portuguese and Italian. I am still looking into the case for including 1 John 5:7 in the bible. I do not have any other motive to do this than finding out the truth. I know that you had posted me some links that said that 1 John 5:7 should not be in the bible and I did post some links to prove the opposite. I believe that we need to see both sides of the argument to at least try to arrive to the truth. Blessings Pilgrim | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 445 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, RE: 1 John 5:7 You can also see a Trail of Evidence in the following website, http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/m1joh5_7.htm | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1526 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.17.194 |
I agree Brother | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 806 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Part 1 of 2 Johnny,I,ll try and address a few things you wrote today as time permits me. you said ""But your ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches that there is no salvation outside of her "" The Catholic Church says that most protestant denominations are attached to her thru valid baptism and such. We call them our separated brothers and understand that many of them have been mislead ignorantly by false teachers from becoming aware of the truth that Christ established the Catholic Church. An example of the false teachers that mislead many would be Jack Chick . The Church even goes further than just the Protestants and recognizes that those who love abide in Christ ,even if they have never heard of Jesus. from the Catechism #1260 “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved" Here is an example of the this... The Gospel doesn't say that a person who never knew Jesus will be rejected. Christ refers to those who disbelieve Him, such as the Pharisees - when He speaks in John 3, for example. In Romans 2, Paul says that ALL men, even the Gentiles, have a law written on their heart. The Catechism details the "natural law" pretty well. Basically, God has written onto our hearts the Law of Love. Even a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ can "know" this law. If a person loves, He abides in Christ. 1 John makes that statement several times. We know that we can do nothing good without Christ abiding within us. Thus, when a person who has never heard of Christ can listen to that divine natural law printed inside of us - and the Spirit blows where He will. Thus, a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ CAN be saved - because they are not specifically rejecting Him - AND they ARE following His Law of Love - which is the summary of the Commandments, says James. The Catechism also refers to some Muslims - they may not have heard the truth of the Gospel, so they cannot reject it. They have been presented a scare crow by their mullahs, so they are considered invincibly ignorant (as the Catechism calls them and other such people). A person will not go to hell if he is invincibly ignorant and loves others. Many Muslims don't know Jesus Christ and the Gospel. They haven't been presented it. So how can they reject it? They only reject a scare crow, much like anti-Catholics who don't know Catholicism. | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 807 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Part#2 Here is more... http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html Certainly, the various religious traditions contain and offer religious elements which come from God,85 and which are part of what “the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures, and religions”.86 Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God.87 One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89 22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 808 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny, Now, I will address the Eucharist and hopefully go back on topic later Here are the facts... Every single Early Church Father believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is not even one single exception!Not one! Every one of them who were involved in the Bible canon process believed this Here is the proof http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html ALL Christians believed this for over 1500 plus years If you look closely at the lives of all of the Saints you will find one absolute distinct thing. They ALL humbly submitted themselves to Christ in the Eucharist. In doing so reveals the secret of the Saints who thus submitted themselves to the will of God. A Saint is someone who loves God,s will-who completely embrace what God has willed for them even if it meant the cross. This is a complete denial of self and the Saints knew that in the Eucharist this is attainable because they understood that humans are far to narrow for their own selves Thus in the Eucharist their minds were enlightened by the gift of faith reveal Jesus presence(that is veild) in the Blessed Sacrament beyond what human eyes can see,thus this kind of faith produces complete selfless Love that can only come from Christ himself indwelling in us. The Typology of the Eucharist is typed thruout the whole Bible and the Church Fathers knew it because the apostles taught it also. Here is the proof http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html Let me go on record and say.... I am willing to stake my own Salvation that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist-Body,Blood,Soul and Divinity' In the Eucharist my heart sees the obedience that is demanded for me to let go of myself to no longer live for myself ,thus in denying myself in absolute obedience to Christ, I can not give credit to myself in any way for the Love I give to others but, rather give all the credit to our redeemer Jesus Christ,whom I can do NOTHING without. In His Eucharistic presence I truly lose myself in Christ Eucharist Miracle at Lanciano, Italy 8th Century A.D http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html Eucharist Miracle Video of Betania, Venezuela http://www.dsanford.com/miraclehost/hostvideo.wmv Eucharistic miracles around the world. http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1777 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.79.36 |
Every single Early Church Father believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is not even one single exception!Not one! does that make it true? getting a whole group of people to accept something is not very difficult. it is just a symbol by which we can come to understand something about god. nothing more. | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 809 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
fof Regarding the Early "Christian" Fathers Go ahead and try and find writings from the early fathers that did not believe in the true presence? (Actual writings -not analysis of them) All their writings are available. I,ll save you the trouble.They don,t exist! Here are just a few of the Early Fathers writings,some of whom were Direct Disciple of the Apostles. "For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165). "He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200). "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). "For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165). "[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200). "He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200). There are literally thousands and thousands more of these writings. Not one of them denied Christs true presence in the Eucharist. Look,Brother! Don,t expect me to debate the Eucharist here on factnet. There are better more appropriate places like- free republic religion section 12:15 mass -got to go I wish you a blessed day! | ||
| skooter942000 Intermediate Member Username: skooter942000 Post Number: 391 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 66.81.217.155 |
CHRIST taught us to PRAY to (THE FATHER). = Matt 6 We have: [GOD] (THE FATHER) (THE SON/CHRIST) (THE HOLY SPIRIT) 'dare anyone' to disprove this FACT. - Using the Bible. (Of course) This site is seeping with LIES. [Beware of the Deceiver] - He dwells among the SHEEP | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Come Mr. Called, here is a challenge for you. If, oneness theory is correct, why was it invented in 1956 by David Bernard? Who is the daddy of Jesus Christ? But WAIT . . . did someone say challenge?!! I will give you any amount of money you can name to provide any one of the following: 1. One single gentile, in God’s Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages who was told quote, unquote “repent”, quote, unquote “be baptized for remission of sin” in quote, unquote “Jesus name only”. 2. One single soul in God’s Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages who quote, unquote “asked for’ or quote, unquote “sought after” quote, unquote “baptism in the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues”. 3. One single soul in God’s Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages who experienced a quote, unquote “second” or quote, unquote “subsequent” quote, unquote “event to salvation”. 4. One single soul in God’s Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages, who quote, unquote “lost” their salvation. To your titles theory, I will pay you any amount of money you can name to show: Example One “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:7,8 (KJV)” 1. A verifiable court case, where an attorney questioned someone, first as “father (1st title of your choice)”, secondly as “grandfather (2nd title of your choice)”, finally as “son (3rd title of your choice)”. Then as a matter of court record referred to three separate and distinct witnesses as being one. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 1780 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.161.79.36 |
pro, i have no intentions of debating such a thing as the eucharist with anyone. it is an interpretaion of christ's teaching just like all of the rest. jesus taught using metaphor. interpretation of metaphor demands a symbolic understanding of these things not literal. the problems that arise taking this stuff literally are numerous. for one it causes us to have to put our god given reason on hold in order to accept it. i don't want to hear that god is not reasonable either. | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 810 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
fof Christ did teach in metaphors but, the Eucharist is not one of those metaphoric teachings. It was never interpreted that way and there is a whole lot of prefiguring of the Eucharist from the Old Testament to the New. The disbelief in the real presence did not enter Christianity til after the reformation when John Calvin and his cohorts came as a "thief in the night" to start the foundation for the demythologization of Christianity. Dear friend ,there are certain supernatural mysteries in Christianity that our finite human minds can not ever understand. We accept these things by faith.We accept these things by teachings of the early Christians and the Saints backed up by Sacred scripture. Oh yes,There is at least one thing that Protestant and Catholics are in total agreement on -it is that without faith we have nothing. The Bible does NOT say that without UNDERSTANDING it is impossible to please God,It does however say that "Without FAITH it is impossible to please God" Here is something to help you if you ever want to rethink this http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchc3.htm You seem like a good man and I wish you well in your quest for the truth | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
I don't blame you for not wanting to debate the lunacies of the Roman Church. No fool does. In fact in my plus years around this sixty world, I have never met a single soul who equates the Roman Church with Christianity. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1529 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
I really have no idea what you’re talking about! I do not hold to UPC Oneness theology or Doctrine, nor do I hold to any Apostate trinity Doctrine! And one of the main reasons I left the UPC back in 2002 was the teachings of David K Bernard, I think he’s a screwball along with all the rest of your Trinitarian theologians! Acts 2:38!!! Then Peter said unto them, {Repent}, and be baptized {every one of you} i{n the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins}, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you= {JEWS}, and to your children= {JEWS}, and to all that are afar off= {GENTILES}, even as many as the LORD our God shall call= {GENTILES}. Did the Lord our God call you Brother???????????? If so! Then this scripture most definitely and unquestionably talking to you my GENTILE Friend!!! Acts 2:38 is the one and ONLY way that any and all NT converts were Baptized 2000 ago in and the one and only true Apostolic Church Founded by Christ himself! Our so called trinity Baptism only came along after Christ and his apostles died off! Can you or anyone else explain why this is so? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Perhaps you should have stayed with UPCI! Salvation was not available to the gentiles in Acts 2:38. Try reading your Bible for a chance. As to UPCI’s doctrine, the tract “60 Questions on the Godhead” was written by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society not David Bernard. My challenge remains. Unlike yourself though, I am not hung up on wording. You may show me any form of the word (repent; repentance; repented; remorse; turn; turned; etc.). | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1533 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. {THIS INCLUDS GENTILES!!!} Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance This includs Gentiles!!! luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. This includs Gentiles!!! Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Dose this not include Gentiles Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Try reading your Bible for a change Sir!!! the Gentiles are Called unto repentance as well as the Jews! No Repentance no Salvation!!!. and the first gentiles to ever enter the NT Church were Baptized Acts 2:38 in the Name of Yeshua Ha Messiah ONLY!for the forgivnessof sins, Try reading Acts CH 10!!! also read Acts Ch 22 | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1534 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. {THIS INCLUDS GENTILES!!!} Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance This includs Gentiles!!! luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. This includs Gentiles!!! Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Dose this not include Gentiles Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Try reading your Bible for a change Sir!!! the Gentiles are Called unto repentance as well as the Jews! No Repentance no Salvation!!!. and the first gentiles to ever enter the NT Church were Baptized Acts 2:38 in the Name of Yeshua Ha Messiah ONLY!for the forgivnessof sins, Try reading Acts CH 10!!! also read Acts Ch 22 | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1535 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries To baptize any other way would be Apostate, For their is only One water Baptism taught and practiced by the Apostles themselves 2000 years ago and that’s Acts 2:38!!! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1536 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
Please provide for me one single Trinitarians Baptism ever being practiced or recorded in the Bible!!! This was not a practice of the First century Church but you Trinitarians will not admit this stone cold Biblical fact!!! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1537 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
No one here on factnet is willing to truly learn anything! it blows my mind!!! At least pilgrim is trying to show himself aproved unto God by realy studing things! keep going Brother and don,t ever stop!!! | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 811 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny, My guess is your basing your whole argument based on websites you visit that are aware that we only have written copies of MSS containing Matthew,s Gospel dating back to the 4th century. This is because the earlier versions were burnt and DESTROYED by the persecutors of early Christians. Eusebius writes: "I saw with mine own eyes the houses of prayer thrown down and razzed to their foundations, and the inspired and sacred Scriptures consigned to the fire in the open market place (H.E. viii 2.)." However we do have the Writings of the Early Church fathers who DID have acess to these writings and lived close to the age of the Apostles. Here is just one such an example(there are others) in this excerpt from Justin Martyr... "Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165). Johnny, You need to step back for a moment and ask yourself wether you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or NOT. NOT just some of it.All of it! If you don,t believe that the Bible canon process was guided by the Holy Spirit, then how do you know anything else in the Bible is inspired? Matthew 28:19 is very clear-Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." I have already shown you many other writings of the Early Fathers that explicitly teach the Trinity well before the 3rd century. I wish you a blessed day! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1545 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
Johnny, My guess is your basing your whole argument based on websites you visit that are aware that we only have written copies of MSS containing Matthew,s Gospel dating back to the 4th century. Ok so you finally see my point Bob and admit yourself that other than the teachings of the Catholic Church fathers we have no written proof at all of the three fold baptism formula found in the tail end of Matthew 28:19! ever existed before the fourth century' “””””””Matthew 28:19 is very clear-Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." So my question is why this was not practiced durning the time of the 12 in the first century? Why was each and every NT Convert in the NT Canon baptized Acts 2:38 without exception Bob? | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 812 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny "we have no written proof at all of the three fold baptism formula found in the tail end of Matthew 28:19! ever existed before the fourth century'" So what! There are many other things in the Bible that we have NO written proof of either. This is exactly why Sacred tradition and the writings of the early fathers are so important. If you think that Sacred tradition was not part of the Bible canon process your kidding yourself. In many cases there were just fragments of certain scrptures,thus they had to rely on writings of the early fathers. You either believe this whole process is guided by the Holy Spirit or you don,t,Derr Brother. | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 813 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny Traditions of the Apostles came first, the Scriptures came next. God gave His Gospel orally first. The Apostles gave it to others orally first. The Scriptures didn't come until AT LEAST ten years later, Thus, the first ten years at least saw Christianity spread without any Gospel writings, any Epistles, etc. Later, when these same men of God wrote letters and the narratives of the Gospels, they naturally taught the SAME thing that they taught orally earlier to others. Thus, the oral teachings preceded the written ones, and the written ones did not overturn the oral ones. Nor does it say anywhere that oral teachings are encapsulated completely within the Scriptures. This is a foolish assumption that is proven incorrect based on the writings of the first Christians. Scripture was PART of the Tradition given by the Apostles. Thus, the Scripture did not "form" the Tradition. Apostolic teachings were given in both forms.People didn't own their own Bibles back then. They relied on their priests and deacons and so forth to teach them the faith. Many men expounded on the faith in what we now call "the Church Fathers". All of this is interpretation of the Apostolic Teachings, both oral and written, that followed from the Apostles themselves. Scripture was a PART of this revelation given to us by the Apostles. They did not set out to write a systematic theology book. They were writing letters to communities that had requested pastoral help. "What should we do about this man who took his father's wife for a lover?" (1 Cor 5). "What do we do about the Jewish dietary laws?" And so forth. Paul was not intending to write a treatise on faith. Later Christians treasured these writings, no matter how incomplete or confusing they sometimes appear to the reader. They came from the Apostles' hands! They heard the words of God themselves! Thus, you need to approach Scripture a bit differently then some all-encompassing book that Christianity GREW OUT OF! It was the other way around! Christianity produced the Bible through inspiration of God (so the claim that we make goes. The bible doesn't make that claim). Thus, when we approach Scripture, it is important to keep in mind what the intent of the writer was and how early Christians interpreted it. It was NEVER intended to be interpreted apart from the Church. Got to go. I know its late where you are so I wish you and your family a Blessed Evening! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1546 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
If you think that sacred tradition was not part of the Bible canon process your kidding yourself. Ok than why was no one ever Baptized this way before the RCC came along Bob? Are we to put the {Sacred traditions} of the RCC over the literal word of God Bob? Is that what you’re asking me to do? The literal word of God tells us that all NT Converts were baptized one way! And that would be Acts 2:38 in the name of the Lord without exception, now the RCC comes along and tells us to believe and practice some totally different Bon, sorry I can’t buy that! Can you blame me? In all honesty Bob? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1547 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
If you think that sacred tradition was not part of the Bible canon process your kidding yourself. Ok than why was no one ever Baptized this way before the RCC came along Bob? Are we to put the {Sacred traditions} of the RCC over the literal word of God Bob? Is that what you’re asking me to do? The literal word of God tells us that all NT Converts were baptized one way! And that would be Acts 2:38 in the name of the Lord without exception, now the RCC comes along and tells us to believe and practice some totally different Bon, sorry I can’t buy that! Can you blame me? In all honesty Bob? | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 814 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny , We posted within a couple of minutes of ourselves . Read my post #813 | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1548 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
All of this is interpretation of the Apostolic Teachings, both oral and written, that followed from the Apostles themselves. The only real problem I see and have with that Bob is the RCC can claim that the true Apostles practiced anything they want without written or documented proof! So are we just to say what the heck and believe anything they tell us! When the bible makes it very clear that we as true Christians must test every spirit and prove all things! They didn’t just accept the Apostle Paul’s teachings they went home and searched the scriptures diligently to see if these things were so Bob, should I do the same? I wish you and your family a Blessed Evening also Bob and am truly sorry I come against you so hard sometimes! Its not you I am coming against, please believe that Bob Am a sick man trying my best to hold of to just what the bible teaches with all that is with in me Bob! I just came back to the states about 2 weeks ago because they found tumors in my thyroid, so I had to leave my family behind in the Philippines until I can find out just what’s going on with my health and how to get it fixed if possible! So please pray for my family back home and ill be praying for yours Thanks and God Bless Johnny | ||
| pro610 Advanced Member Username: pro610 Post Number: 815 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.204.143.12 |
Johnny, I,m sorry to hear of your health problems and I will certainly keep you in prayer. You Wrote... ""The only real problem I see and have with that Bob is the RCC can claim that the true Apostles practiced anything they want without written or documented proof!"" At some point your going to have to trust that the Catholic Church was guided by the Holy Spirit if you are to believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. By claiming that Matthew 28:19 does not belong in the Bible you are saying that bible canon was not guided by the Holy Spirit in some cases and in other cases you say it is. By this measure how can anyone trust the Bible as being fully inspired? Do you actually think that God would allow the canon process to be corrupted by people? You see,Dear Brother. You are painting yourself deep into a corner because you refuse to believe that Christ founded the Catholic Church. BTW, where in the usa are you now? | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1550 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
Paterson NJ my home town! im going to rest for a while Bob ill get back to you a little later ok Bro god Bless Johmmy | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 448 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, RE: 1 John 5:7 Porque tres son los que dan testimonio en el cielo, el Padre, el Verbo, y el Espíritu Santo: y estos tres son uno. Look at the followings websites and you will see more reasons why 1 John 5:7 is in King James Version. You can also find this verse in many other old versions of the bible in several languages. The Argument From The Greek Manuscripts Records, http://www.1john57.com/RJack.htm You can also look at the next two websites, http://www.ovrlnd.com/Bible/casefor1john57.html http://www.1john57.com/threeletters3.htm Called, you kindly wrote in your post 1537,"At least pilgrim is trying to show himself aproved unto God by realy studing things! keep going Brother and don,t ever stop!!!" Thank you for the encouragement, I am not a brother because a I not a man but I can probably be a sister!!  | ||
| pilgrim Intermediate Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 449 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.134 |
Called, I am sorry I wrote the spanish Reina-Valera 1602 Bible Version of 1 John 5:7 by mistake in my previous post and I could not Edit the post. Here I am posting the English King James Version of the same verse. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.(KJV) Blessings Pilgrim | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1552 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.0.108 |
Well what ever you are pilgrim you got my Vote! I could never understand just how professing Christians can come against something without really studying it first! Or at least try to study it so they will have something in their corner to debate about! I just don’t know about the factnet crew!!! God Bless you johnny | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1688 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.171.177 |
I have noticed that not one single Professing Trinitarian Christian on any message board I have ever been on could ever come against my challenge and win, Why is that? People go around the corner, up the street over the bushes through the woods trying to explain this man made Doctrine birthed out of the RCC, but not one single Trinitarian can come straight against it and prevail! All the do is get mad it me kick my off the Boards, So I made a few adjustments and resubmit it once again, and humbly ask if any of you on this message board can meet this challenge as it is written without going down the street, around the corner, over the fence, through the woods or not {{{Yes or No}}} Please!!! No Fancy Trinitarian theology Terminology or Ideology or anything else "JUST ANSWER" {{{YES OR NO}}} Thank You!!! {My Personal Challenge to the Trinitarian world at large} I Pastor/Evangelist Johnny J Christen Jr. of {The Straight and Narrow Gate Apostolic Ministries} In the Philippines, Openly challenge {{{The Trinitarian world at large}}} = All of Christendom, To present or provide for me {Written Scriptural Proof} that the “Doctrine of the Holy Trinity” was “specifically and expressly” {taught} by Christ himself or one of the Original hand picked Apostles of Christ Almighty himself including the Apostle Paul or any othet NT Writter for that matter in the First Century Church that Christ himself come down to establish over 2000 years ago. In order to meet this challenge you must Present to me at least one Holy spirit inspired scripture from the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon, that {Specifically and Expressly Teaches} {Word for Word} The doctrine of the Holy Trinity as Defined by the Councils and Creeds of the Roman Catholic Church, such as {the Nicene and the Athanasian creeds}, And no other Holy spirit inspired scripture found in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon can contradict any part of this teaching whatsoever in anyway shape or form, or the doctrine of the Holy Trinity will automatically be considered nothing more than a Post Apostolic teaching of man that was birthed out of the Roman Catholic Church in The Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381 AD “The Basic teaching of the Holy Trinity As Taught in all Trinitarian Churches today” 1. We worship one God “in three persons” and “three persons” in one God. 2. Their are three" separate” and “distinct individual persons” in the Godhead, . . 3. “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” and these three are one. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1689 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.171.177 |
. These three “distinct” individual persons of the godhead” are “Co–Equal” “Co-Eternal” and “co- Existing” 4.{God the Father is the First person of the Godhead} {God the Son is the second person of the Godhead} and {God the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Godhead}. NOW!!! I will tear up my license to preach, move to the location of your Church or Ministry with my family, Join your Church or Ministry and faithfully support it until the day I die, {If} you can present or provide for me just one single Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles including the Apostle Paul or any NT writer for that matter specifically and expressly taught {in NT Scripture} that { We worship one God “in three persons” or “three persons” in one God} Or {If} you can present or provide for me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles including the Apostle Paul or any NT writer for that matter specifically and expressly taught {in NT Scripture} that {. Their are three" separate” and “distinct individual persons” in the Godhead,. “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” and these three are one. Or {If} you can present or provide for me just one Holy spirit inspired scripture in the 27 Epistles of the New Testament Canon where Christ himself or one of his hand picked Apostles including the Apostle Paul or any NT writer for that matter specifically and expressly taught {in NT Scripture} that {God the Father is the First person of the Godhead} {God the Son is the second person of the Godhead} and {God the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Godhead}. And {IF} You can show me at least one NT Convert in the 27 Epistles of the NT canon that has ever been Baptized in the {Trinitarian baptismal formula} found in Mat 28:19 You must prove to me beyond the benefit of a doubt that this so called {{{DOCTRINE OF THE HOLY TRINITY}}} Existed and was specifically and expressly taught in the First century apostolic church and recorded in our NT Canon, while the Apostles were alive and walked the face of this earth or its nothing more than an abominable teaching of man birthed out of the Corrupt Pagan Apostate RCC. Yours in Christ Pastor/Evangelist Johnny J Christen, of {The Straight and Narrow Gate Apostolic Ministries} In the Philippines, My personal Email yahshua2005@yahoo.com | ||
| skooter942000 Intermediate Member Username: skooter942000 Post Number: 468 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 66.81.220.181 |
- Is CHRIST Immanuel? - (YES or NO) saying CHRIST is NOT GOD, is like saying GOD exists - (and doesn't exist). Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. - From GEN (ONE) Let us make MAN in OUR IMAGE and LIKENESS. & (CHRIST IS) Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Either one believes in these verses, - (or one does not). - Time to choose , (Or lose) , - (or REND) X______________________________ Don <*))>< | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1690 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.171.177 |
Your post dose not meet the requirements of the challenge. Now can you simply meet the requirements of the challenge or not {{{YES OR NO}}} I must have made a mistake and have written my challenge in Hebrew or something, Ya that must be it!!! | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1691 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.171.177 |
I will try this again/ I humbly ask if any of you on this message board can meet this challenge as it is written without going down the street, around the corner, over the fence, through the woods or not {{{Yes or No}}} Please!!! No Fancy Trinitarian theology Terminology or Ideology or anything else "JUST ANSWER" {{{YES OR NO}}} Thank You!!! {My Personal Challenge to the Trinitarian world at large} | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1685 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.158.183.55 |
Called, you have been challenged in the past, and now skooter has given you but a few great scriptures proving that God and Christ are indeed 1. Once you have seen the Son, you've seen the Father. How can YOU deny Christ is God. and by the way I do not hold to the RCC stand that you presented. God is God is God; Father, embodiment of Father in the Son, and the Power of God. They have worded it differently than I would have, giving God ordered # for His Titles. They are all God. The Same God. There is only 1 God. Pretty easy dude. If you could see this, you will know how useless and backwards your denials are, for if one is Baptized in Christ's name, that is the important part. That is the credential. Whether an individual wants to acknowledge the Father and Spirit, as well as HAVING to know who Christ is (because we use His name), awesome, what is wrong with that... nothing at all but YOUR opinion. You are trying to divide the brothers/sisters on a topic that is not even a real issue. Christ is mentioned every time, and since He is God, there is no conflict, or contradiction. This IS your biggest obstacle. I would believe that blessings would follow, called. We say this out of HOPE and brotherly love. Take the edification. Peace and Find your Messiah. ps. besides Called, does anyone out there (who calls themselves Christian) believe that you can be a Christian and deny that Christ is God. Do you think that anyone could go to judgement with Called's opinion on Christ and be favored into Eternity? Just curious....opinions only, for only God knows. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1692 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.43.21 |
ezekiel I respect what your saying but the fact is it took at least 381 years and two Roman Catholic Councils and creeds to fully formulate and develop this {{{MAN MADE DOCTRINE}}} and no theological studies were ever done on this until the fourth century, you must admit that this doctrine was not literally or expressly taught by Christ or his chosen followers of that day in the First century Apostolic church, their was no such thing as a Trinitarian baptism ever being practiced in scripture by the Apostles themselves, So was everyone in the first century church baptized wrong by the Apostles? You said {{{for if one is Baptized in Christ's name, that is the important part. That is the credential}}} these are your words right Brother? So let me ask you a question ok, were you baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 2:38 {JESUS ONLY} or was you baptized in the Trinitarian formula found in the tail end of Matthew 28:19 which was never once practiced in Scripture?. But only came into existence when the RCC came into the picture, If you say yes you did get baptized in the Name of the Lord Acts JESUS CHRIST 2:38 {JESUS ONLY} that would mean for some reason you like myself have denied the trinity baptism in Matthew 28:19! If you say no you have not gotten baptized in the name of the Lord JESUS CHRIST Acts 2:38,{{{JESUS ONLY}}} that would mean you got baptized in the Trinitarian formula used in Matthew 28:19 which was never once practiced in scripture, which would also mean you have never been baptized in the name of the Lord JESUS CHRIST, Which would be a contradiction to what you wrote {{{ for if one is Baptized in Christ's name, that is the important part. That is the credential}}} So please explain to me out of Brotherly love just how you were baptized because that will tell it all! May God Truly Bless you and yours Ps. Please answer this because your truly confusing me here Brother. Johnny | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1693 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 141.150.43.21 |
Telling me that Jesus Christ is God or giving me scriptures to prove this is not meeting the qualifications of [[[ my Trinitarian challenge to the world}}} nor is YHWH/YHVH’s Name JESUS in other words Gods name is not Jesus, Nor is the Holy Spirits name Jesus, So getting Baptized in the Trinitarian formula Father Son and Holy Ghost found in Mathew 28:19 is not getting Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 2:38 as so many Trinitarian try to argue!!! Because the |
