Reality

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Author Message   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 851 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:42 pm:        I would like to start a new thread devoted to Facts. I have been involved in various aspects of business for several years now, and I have learned that there are simple facts that are always true across the broad plane of life. These facts are what I want to devote this thread to. There is a certain businessman in Waco that I know very well. This man is what anyone in the world would call 'accomplished'. His choice of business was the retail industry, and for many years he was the best in the industry. I don't mean just in a local market, I mean in a global market. He was a key player for one of the largest retailers in the world. He hired and fired more people than most of us will meet in a lifetime. He turned a large company into a global empire. He was, in simple terms, a giant of the retail industry. Yet this man is one of the simplest, hardest working, plainspoken men one could ever hope to meet. He could have reached hights of profit and popularity that are presently unknown to man. His brother was the Mayor of a city that hosts the most recognizable professional sports name in the history of the world. This man could have been an icon of the retail world. And yet, when he was at the threshold of what could have been the greatest part of his career, he retired. Why did he retire? It was simple, he wouldn't work on Sunday. He retired becase of personal convition. He retired because of honor. Today, this same man is a supporter of HH. This is what I call "reality". FH and her little mob love to sit at their computers and piously judge HH, yet the unsung hero's of this whole issue are those like the man I described above. The man I described above single handedly turned a fledgling company into a global behemoth, and yet his word means nothing to the big mouthed delusional posters like FH and ML. I look at people like FH, people who think they have everything figured out, and I just laugh. This lady somewhere in the Smokey Mountains thinks she has HH all figured out. Whatever. When I try to balance her so called "wisdom" against the wisdom of a man who ran a multi million dollar multi national business, I find myself speechless in recognition of her utter stupidity. Robin can say her little "prayers" here all she wants, yet when I hear the man I speak of above say a prayer of Blessing over HH, my Amen will certainly be much louder! (Message edited by dowen on January 16, 2007)   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 317 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:19 am:        What's your point? It's sad to me that financial wizards seem to fill your "heroic" ideal..... Even you should know that knowledge and wisdom are two completely different things..... $$$$$$$$$ it seems I see a little glint in your eye that might be pulling your sanity and logic while writing your latest post...... just my opinion (Message edited by truth hunter on January 17, 2007)   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 469 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:10 am:        You haven't hurt my feelings any DOwen. I wasn't looking to be your hero. I seek the approval of God over the appeasement of men. It is ok if you don't approve of me. DO, I am sorry you doubt my sincerity, but God knows I am sincere when I pray for the people of HH.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 896 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:59 am:        Thanks, Daniel. T_S, your mockery opinion above is pretty dumb. Especially as Daniel is emphasizing how the fellow moved away from all that from spiritual conviction and is a simple, hard-working, plainspoken man. And yes, Daniel, you are right on another point. Pharisee-ish prayers have been a common theme of the oppos on this forum. In one case it was almost a verbatim quotation from scripture, something like - "Oh, Lord,I am so happy that I am not like HH". Such 'prayers' fall to the ground, and true repentance prayers would a far better way. Shalom, Praxaluh   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1748 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.213 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:32 am:        If a man gains the whole world and losses his soul what has he gained? If the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1749 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.213 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:39 am:        I do not get what Daniel is trying to say...Lots of people don't work on Sunday...probably millions...lots of people don't work on Satuday...they try to observe the OT Sabbath...I know LOTS of them...but just because someone doesnot work on a certain day does not make them right...or even honorable people. Muslins kill in the NAME of THEIR god...that does not make them right...neither does the comparision make that man right or hh right...We are not saved by works alone or by observing days...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1750 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.213 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:42 am:        Daniel there are enough facts on this board alone for a criminal investigation...and you want more facts?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 852 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:09 am:        Hunter and Missionary, Your above posts are truly pathetic. The man I described above is not a member of HH, yet he supports them wholeheartedly. He is a pillar of the local community and a highly respected member of a local Church. According to you guys, he has been fooled and duped by HH. I find that charge to be idiotic. I spoke of his background because I wanted you guys to see that you are not accusing a simple "Joe Blow" of being hoodwinked. You are saying HH has duped a phenomenally successful and brilliant man, but even more important than this mans worldly accomplishments, is his vibrant relationship with God. A relationship with God that has led him to love and appreciate HH. Yes Hunter, in my eyes, this man shares hero status with my Dad and a few others.   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 318 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:21 am:        Yes Daniel that is exactly what I am saying, he has been duped right along with hundreds of other intelligent people, it is not an insult to anyones IQ (except yours if you think a smart person can't be duped). I will also add that it was the lowly fishermen that Jesus choose for his disciples not the smart intelligent leaders of the church, think about that for a second, Jesus himself was a lowly carpenter. I will also say along with ML that conviction means nothing in the quest for right and wrong.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 853 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:30 am:        I am speechless. TH, do you even read what you write?   truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 319 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:03 pm:        Do you?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 854 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:37 pm:        The arrogance displayed here on FN is amazing. Not only is it amazing, it is sad. Hunter is so hardened by his vendetta that he finds himself in ridiculous situations like the one above. I wish he could see what a fool me made of himself, yet, his rage against HH blinds him. Sad. A couple of weeks ago I spoke to a local school teacher about HH, and she told me that her class's annual field trip to HH is a highlight of her school year. She told me about how she has gotten to know several of the young people at HH, and how much she loves them. She told me how she had read some of HH's books, and how much they spoke to her. But, according to the mighty hunter, she is duped. She is fooled, she is simply too stupid to see what he sees. Again, the arrogance of the opposition is astounding.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1751 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.33.108 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:36 pm:        I have been on a lot of trips to villages like HH but that still does not make HH right. The catholics have a nice village like HH in Arkansas. 12 tribes have several villages here in Brazil...Jim Jones too had a village and had powerful important friends...but that did not make him right... A tour to HH is one thing to live in the city of the blind is another thing...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 855 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:58 pm:        I am not talking about folks who have just toured HH here. The gentleman I talked about earlier lives nearby HH, and visits them often. The teacher visits HH several times a year, has read some of their books, and has developed relationships with several members. Please try reading the thread before you post comments to it. Also, perhaps you should read about "strawmen" debating tactics. Thanks.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1753 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.133.171 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:10 pm:        lol...the same applies to Jim Jones supporters...many thought they knew him...Dowen...you need to realize that HH is dead wrong. And wrong at the core. Manipulation is wrong. People have lived with serial killers and did not realize who they were living with. How do I know? A good friend of mine her sister was married to one and did not even know it! (Message edited by Missionary_lady on January 17, 2007)   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 904 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:27 pm:        A simple caution that the forum sickness is trying to return. Jim Jones and serial killers. Since this has never had a real repentance and cleansing it will seek to return through back doors and it will take a real vigilance to keep the forum clean and crisp. Front channel, back channel, a word in love, a hard word, may be needed. And a true-blue cleansing would be the proper way, the lasting way. Shalom, Praxaluh   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 856 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:12 pm:        Thanks Praxaluh. The constant harping upon of Jones and serial killers, in comparison of HH, is truly sick. There are countless, upstanding, members of my local community that support HH and what HH is doing. Pastors, Law enforcement agents, Lawyers, Teachers, Politicians, Firemen, Engineers, Contractors, Salesmen, Businessmen, Professors, Carpenters, etc etc. Yet, ML, Th and crew are smarter than all of them. HH may be able to fool Baylor professors and the local Sheriffs dept, but they can't fool the Hunter and pastorette FH. Bwahahahahah. The utter lunacy of this mere handful of attackers is astounding.   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 971 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.127.95.181 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:19 pm:        Come one, Dowen, you're smarter than that! Gee, "Pastors, Law enforcement agents, Lawyers, Teachers, Politicians, Firemen, Engineers, Contractors, Salesmen, Businessmen, Professors, Carpenters, etc etc." support abortion -- it must be okay!   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 857 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:27 pm:        Yeah, I kinda figured someone would say that. Thanks for biting CS. Talk about strawmen my friend! You know full well what my point was, yet you lifted a quote, twisted it, and tried to use it against me. Classic Strawman. Practice what you preach, please.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1754 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.68.151 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:30 pm:        We are not impressed with who or who does not know hh exists...people all over the world knew Jim Jones but they really did not know him...Some that thought they knew him were Politicians, pastors, missionaries, Government people lawyers, teachers and on and on... But did they really KNOW HIM???? HH has never told their Baylor friends what they really believe...that they cannot do...   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 858 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:41 pm:        "HH has never told their Baylor friends what they really believe...that they cannot do..." You are a sick liar. You have NO idea what may or may not have been shared, yet you come here and spout your sick garbage. I honestly don't think that I have ever known someone with as vile a case of arrogance as yours. In you haste to write off the testimony of countless good people, you expose yourself as a political opportunist, willing to use anyone and anything to further your sick disgusting cause. Tis frightening. (Message edited by dowen on January 17, 2007)   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 973 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.127.95.181 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:51 pm:        You're right, Dowen -- I should have asked you for more detailed clarification before jumping on that statement. Please tell me exactly what it is that "countless, upstanding, members of (your) local community" support about HH. Then please expand on their depth of knowledge and experience in HH.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1756 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.5.191 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:08 pm:        I most certainly do...they mentioned that to me quite a few times...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1757 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.5.191 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:12 pm:        How could all these countless people know when members at level one do not even know all HH believes...lol...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1759 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.5.191 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:29 pm:        members at level 2 do not know either... Like my missionary Mom said, she leaves all the guidance from God up to the brothers... so their answer to her she takes as God's answer. That is foolish! That is dangerous. I would never trust one of those men with my imortal soul. I value my salvation more than that!   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 859 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:40 pm:        ML, Please stop with the petty distractions and prattle. It is useless. With every post you author, it becomes more and more obvious that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Some days you say one thing, some days you say another. All of it is nonsense. You have set yourself up as a queen bee know-it-all, and in the long run you are only hurting yourself. Anyone who disagrees with you, you write off as a duped nazi. Anyone who dares to stand against your tirades is subjected to even more verbal abuse by you. You have HH figured out, and no matter who tells you different, you are going to blaze ahead with your bigotry. It is sad.   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:08 pm:        There's a fallacy of argument here, Dowen. No offense, I don't presume to know your intentions. However, I must say, just because someone is smart, successful, righteous and affable doesn't mean that they will never be fooled. Don't misunderstand me, I'm NOT saying that this man has been fooled, I'm just saying this is a faulty argument. For example, the Mormon's are, some say, the fastest growing religious group in America. They've got LOADS of cash and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is considered by many to be one of the world's best. They have members that are extremely wealthy, I'm sure as wealthy and more-so than your friend. They have members that are intelligent: doctors, lawyers and intelligent businessmen. However, that does not mean that that means they are spiritually legit -- because they are not. Do you see the faulty logic? Just because someone's smart and successful *and* they support HH doesn't mean anything. Smart and successful people support EVERYTHING at some point. Name the cause or religion, and you can find tons of smart and successful "pillars of the community" that support that cause. It means nothing. Peace   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 368 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:14 pm:        Hello Dowen I will always admire your zeal and loyalty that is what makes you the quality person you are. I admire a man (like the one you mention) that will stand up for his or her principals even and especially when it cost them something. I wondered why the Chick-Fil-A restaurants were all closed on Sundays and after asking the manager I found out the owner of Chick-Fil-A chain of stores (a strong out spoken Christian) will not sign a lease if the store is required to open on Sunday. The result is the Chick-Fil-A in our local mall is the only store not open on Sundays. I admire that. I do not think anyone is saying that there aren’t quality people in HH. No one is saying the friends of HH are not quality people. As you know CB is an attorney in HH. There are many with college degrees, I believe DB is an engineer . Bro. T has a Doctorate in Education. The list goes on. There are many outsiders as you mentioned in all walks of life that are friends with HH. That does not prove anything for or against HH. The man that you mention you admire (from what you wrote about him so do I). Does he have children in HH or grandchildren, nieces or nephews? If he does, isn’t it logical he would do anything to continue to see his kids or his grandkids or other relatives. One of my greatest fears when we left HH was that my wife and or kids would want to stay. I was willing to do whatever I needed to do to have access to my family. (To the outside reader I write this because there are many families in HH now where the wife or the husband or kids are in HH while at the same time their wife or husband or kids are out. This division in the family makes life almost unbearable and trust me when I say one will do anything to avoid that situation). I am just saying if the friend you admire is not in HH but has kids, grandkids etc in HH that person is probably not going to do anything to jeopardize that. Has your friend read the Baptismal vows? Does he know what happens when people leave HH? Or does he just go to Fairs and Weddings and Birthdays and Christmas programs and Sorghum Fests. Because if that is his involvement no matter how many years he has been hanging around he does not know HH. RT decided to leave and take his posts with him and I admire his conviction. Why did he leave? He left because he could not continue to write as he did because he found out that much of what the ex-members posted was true. Why did PH change in his posts? He changed because someone he respected told him much of what the ex-members were saying is true. (I am not saying that RT or PH agree with everything myself or any other ex-member posting here). Likewise the friends (doctors, attorneys, teachers , politicians, law enforcement, etc.) that you mention do not know HH, they only know the part that HH wants them to know. That is OK but it does not prove the doctrine and practices of HH to be true (or false). It only proves what every ex-member has said from the beginning, there are really nice people who are sincere in their love and devotion to God living in HH. Keep posting little brother. Please however, do not be offended by my posts to you. It is just that since you have never been a member of HH, never signed a baptism vow and never made a Ruth / Naomi covenant till death do you part, it is difficult for me to accept you know the doctrines and patterns of HH merely because you were raised in a family living in HH through your teenage years. That does not negate your right to post or give your opinion nor does your lack of experience negate the value of your input. It just does not put allot of weight behind your words. Abiding together……. Under Grace   not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.176.74 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:30 pm:        bump for triogy..   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1760 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.5.191 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:42 pm:        Around 700 members it seems someone said HH has. Can you imagine this? 685 never read a newspaper today. Not because they did not want to but because strict discipline waits those that dare disobey. 685 never looked inside a good clean magazine today. Not because they did not want to but because strict discipline waits those that dare disobey. 685 never turned on a radio today. Not because they did not want to but because strict discipline awaits those that dare disobey. 685 never ate a piece of chocolate today. Not because they did not want to but because strict discipline waits those that dare disobey. 685 never drank a coke today. Not because they did not want to but because strict discipline waits those that dare disobey. and on and on... until it become ridiculous… It is not like a personal choice…hey I don’t want to drink coke it is bad on my health. No that is not it…it is because they are brainwashed into believing God cares If they drink a coke…or God cares if they eat pork…or God cares if they eat chocolate. I think the whole group needs to throw out the OT laws and read the book of Galatians. I am not against having personal convictions. Everyone needs personal convictions. I am not against a church preaching what they feel is Bible doctrine. But when a so called church punishes people for things that are not even a sin something is wrong. Every time my missionary mom would go out she would drink coke with us then Go on and on how she should not do that…Eat a piece of bacon then it would happen again…I am glad she did not get caught! YET when HH was represented in Brazil they drank cokes galore ate chocolate all the time…Why the double standard? Why stare your eyes out at the newspaper stand trying to read the headlines? Just go buy a paper if you want to. Why stare at the shows on the planes and then preach against them? No, I was not about to turn our works over to something like that. Go to the fair see if they sell chocolate ice cream? See if you can buy a coke? See if you can buy bacon… It is not the fact what a person eats or does not eat it is the fact that they are treated like little kids and must be told what they can eat and what they cannot eat… HH is so possessed about their image to the outside world their people inside are starved for the REAL love of God. I saw them become angry with a girl that felt her call to missions because she came to Talk to me without going through the proper channels. I asked my mom why they were so angry and that is exactly the answer… You have to go through the proper channels…lol…where does the Bible teach such Stuff? It doesn’t my friend.   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:55 pm:        Missionary Lady, I've seen HH members drink sodas -- Dr. Pepper's mainly. I've seen them eat chocolate as well. My understanding is that they use those things sparingly; that's certainly good advice for us all. Let's not be ridiculous.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1761 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.5.191 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:13 am:        I am only using an example of things they themselves told me and my mom told me...My young people saw them buy candy then hide it...It is not the fact whether they eat or do not eat it is the fact the list of commandments becomes longer and longer... I do not think you understood what I was saying or maybe I did not express my self well. NO. They do not drink COKE. I agree it is good advice. BUT good advice if given as law is no longer just good advice. I am trying to say it is normal for some people to eat bacon and it is not a sin. It might not be good for you but it is not a sin. It is not a sin to eat rabbit I have no ideal if it is good for you or not but one thing I do know it is not a sin. Trilogy, we are no longer under the law...we are under grace...when little things lile I mentioned and hundreds more become an issue who is more spiritual or who has more truth then it is flawed thinking. I have no problem with personal convictions. I stated that fact, but I was told perfume cause lustful spirits...NOW do not tell me that is true...My husband had on a TH shirt he bought at the Goodwill for a dollar and was told not to wear it...My husband is a foreigner and has no ideal what TH even means... The first time he went there they told him not to wear a tie...He comes from a country where a tie is worn by all christians as a sign of respect to God and His house. I sat in a service and listened to BA ridicule all other churches but theirs...Do you know what this does to peoples minds hearing this over and over again? It brainwashes them into thinking they are some rare type people who have a special revelation from God... Why do this to the poor people? The people do not know what is being done to them but let me tell you the top guys KNOW what they are doing...I cannot believe that HH is a christian church...I am sorry for being so plain...that does not mean that there are not christians there but the real christians do not know that slowing their rights have been taken away from them.   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:32 am:        Trilogy, we are no longer under the law...we are under grace...when little things lile I mentioned and hundreds more become an issue who is more spiritual or who has more truth then it is flawed thinking. I think with certain individuals in HH the whole "I don't eat bacon so I'm more spiritual" bit can be taking place, but I don't think it's across the board. I don't know how much real time you've spent with HH folks, but I have spent quite a bit of time over the past few years with them, and I've seen them enjoy some things like pepperoni on pizza (pork), cokes, chocolate and even listen to radio (albiet christian radio). NO. They do not drink COKE. Yes, they do. Sometimes. Heck, they sell soda at their fair -- just not caffeinated soda. But, like I said, I've seen them drink caffeine plenty of times, but not in excess. My husband is a foreigner and has no ideal what TH even means... I'm an American and I have no idea what it means. I sat in a service and listened to BA ridicule all other churches but theirs...Do you know what this does to peoples minds hearing this over and over again? It brainwashes them into thinking they are some rare type people who have a special revelation from God... Why do this to the poor people? I can only take your word on this because I wasn't there. I will say this, I think some things do need to change at HH. I think they do have some issues that need to be resolved, etc. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 370 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:04 am:        Hey Triolgy, Have you read the dietary patterns written for the members of HH? It is very real and very serious. People have been disassociated and even disfellowshipped over breaking the dietary laws. Having said that I think it is sometimes trivial to bog down on the specific do’s and don’ts. Radio was cut out when I was in HH. I am not saying that you were not with some folks from HH or you did not hear Christian radio in a car from there. You may have seen them eat a pepperoni pizza. I would bet that the radio and the pizza was for your benefit not theirs. They have served Rocky Mountain Soda for many years. You are right there is no caffeine and it has a different type of sweetener than white cane sugar. None of these things are significant in and of themselves, collectively it means that as a visitor you will see and experience what they want you to see and experience. Under Grace   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 907 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:35 am:        Thank you, Trilogy. I am a bit astounded at these posts. From the HH perspective (mine as well), pigs and the bottom-feeders (shrimp, etc) were designed by God as scavengers, not as food. Yes, that includes a full exegesis of Peter's vision, which purpose was given, to call no man unclean. This has been confirmed by virtually every good health-oriented teacher with whom I have ever been in contact. And here we have a forum where the big issue is that HH actually believes the Bible, that those unclean animals, rat and cat and eel and catfish and dog and oysters and all, were not designed by God as food for man. (There was no transformation of our digestive system at calvary, those animals were still not food, they were still unhealthy.) I could discuss some of the other stuff above, but this is so simple and Biblical and plain it deserves first note. Folks are throwing brickbats at HH simply for actually believing and understanding and following the Bible. Ah, the depths of confusion and rebellion among the oppos. 'Gasp, they seek to follow God and follow his patterns for health and well-being ..oh, no .. we need FREEDOM - to seek to follow God is SPIRITUAL ABUSE' Shalom, Praxaluh   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 471 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.109 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:37 am:        Pork, caffeine, including chocolate, regular white sugar, and white flour, are against the temple pattern. HH doctrine has levels they compare to the rooms in the temple. The temple patterns are taken as the Word from God coming through BA and a part of the course of faith like his other doctrine writings. The women do not buy it at the store unless it is for a visitor. They are allowed to eat it so not to offend those outside HH. To offend you by their diet is a greater sin then going against it. They can break dietary rules so not to offend you. They can have tea with caffeine at a restaurant and deserts with sugar etc at a restaurant, but they fix decaf at home; again except for when they have visitors. I kept white flour, sugar, and coffee in my home and used it when I had company from outside HH. I would have felt tremendous guilt if I had used it other wise. I did know one sister who used white flour to make her gravy, thinking the amount was so little it couldn't hurt. I wanted to do that too. I was afraid to ask my group leader if it was ok, because if the answer was no, I knew I would have to tell the other sister it was wrong. There are these games people play, just like children, trying to get around the rule your parents set because you don't agree with the rule. So if they get a chance to go against the rule when they know it won’t get them in trouble they go for it. Much like a child at his grandmother’s house gets away with some things he wouldn't at home, even if his parents are watching him.) The dietary patterns have exceptions when outsiders might be offended, so some people make good use of the exception. I loved it when my Dad would order pepperoni pizza while I was visiting him. I could eat it without feeling guilty. I am the kind of person that can not live in peace if I have a guilty conscience, so I would never have dreamed of buying it and taking it home for my family. When I was there, (seven years,) they did not order coke, only tea. The only time I drank coke was when it was offered to me so I would not offend the one offering. How would it sound if I said, "I am not allowed to drink that," or "it is against the rules?" Because ML was more than a casual visitor, I can see where they might be expected to keep the pattern around her, so they may have felt they had to hide it. Sometimes it is hard to know when you are treading on thin ice and might be crossing the line. People have been accused of deep seated rebellion for drinking coke. At least one brother was told it showed that there was a more serious issue in his heart because he walked into a store and bought a coke just because he was thirsty. Trilogy, it has nothing to do with "sparingly." It has to do with outsiders. I could drink coke every day if you offered it to me, but I could not buy it to drink at home alone once a week, or once a month without feeling rebellious or being afraid I would get caught.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 472 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.109 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:17 am:        Prax, what it comes down to is people can't make decisions for themselves. I am not against a church teaching it's members to eat healthy. We need to be good stewards of our body. But HH has gone farther than teaching. They have set down rules about what a wife can put on her table to feed her family. So much for a husband being the head of his home. The leaders decide what his family eats, and how they dress. (ML, they don't wear T-shirts except as underwear.) The husband doesn't say to his wife, "Honey, I don't mind you listening to this preacher on the radio, but I rather you didn't listen to this other one," because he is not the head of his home, the elders are. The Bible says that each woman should submit to her husband, but she is submitting first to other men. Her husband has say so only if the other men haven't already voiced their decision. It is pathetic how they treat these adults like little children. They can't trust them to know God's will outside of it coming from them. If there is a decision to make with no rule to follow, like moving or taking a job, they will tell a man to go pray and ask God then come back. If they don't come back with the decision the leader wants, they tell them to go pray again, and again, and again. When the man finally comes up with the "right" decision the the leader "confirms" it. We were in HH for seven years. After we left HH, my husband struggled with making decisions. HH had eroded his confidence in making good decisions. For most people this is a basic life skill. It is one he had no problem with before HH. For a couple years after HH, making even the simple decisions could cause anxiety. I had to build him up and encourage him in his ability to make good decisions for his family. Praise God that He restored what the locust had eaten. Thank you Lord for bringing us out bondage to men who wanted us to think we were nothing but worms and crawl to them for the good things that You so freely give. Thank you Lord that my husband can be the head of his house instead of these men.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 473 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.109 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:13 am:        DOwen: The man I described above single handedly turned a fledgling company into a global behemoth, and yet his word means nothing to the big mouthed delusional posters like FH and ML. I look at people like FH, people who think they have everything figured out, and I just laugh. This lady somewhere in the Smokey Mountains thinks she has HH all figured out. Whatever... When I try to balance her so called "wisdom" against the wisdom of a man who ran a multi million dollar multi national business, I find myself speechless in recognition of her utter stupidity. Robin can say her little "prayers" here all she wants, yet when I hear the man I speak of above say a prayer of Blessing over HH, my Amen will certainly be much louder! This lady in the smoky mountains was a member of HH for seven years. She has read their doctrines and was tested on them. She believed them and lived them. What you said makes me think that you can have no respect for simple mountain people; like they are dumb. You at least have more respect for big business men. Don't forget that God called the simple men to be His disciples.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 474 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.109 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:27 am:        This lady somewhere in the Smokey Mountains ...When I try to balance her so called "wisdom" against the wisdom of a man who ran a multi million dollar multi national business, I find myself speechless in recognition of her utter stupidity. Not that it could mean anything to anyone but you, who respects the success of this other man... (By the way HH has canceled many Sunday meetings, to have the members work for HH.)But here in the mountains, this "stupid" mountain family has built a national engineering firm that is registered and has clients in 47 states. He is an upstanding and very well respected man in his community. After being here just 5 years he and his wife were selected by county leaders as two of 24 people to participate in setting the goals for future infrastructure, (road, utilities etc.,) business development, education, health resources, and social/community development. This stupid woman you are talking about was one of two nominated as president of the Jackson County Development Association last year. (I declined.) Do not think for a moment that we are not well respected by those who actualy know us. God has blessed us so we can serve our community which is what we do on many levels. This man who HH had tried to reduce to a worm has been blessed by God, (instead of cursed like HH teaches,) when he took his family out of HH. Besides his national engineering firm God has blessed them with a 200 acres in some of the most beautiful land in the US. We have eight children; the last we took in when he was orphaned five years ago. God is blessing us with a new 6,6000 sq ft. lodge for our large family to live in. Why? Not because we deserve it; We most certainly do not. It is just because God is good. He knows that what ever He gives us is really His and He can use it for His purpose. I can't wait to see what His plans are. It has been such a blessing just watching it all come together. We have been blessed to see our pastor Sunday through Friday for the past 12 months, because he is the one, (along with his employees,) building the lodge. God has used this time to really deepen our walk with Jesus. I talk about HH and this board with our pastor a couple times a week. He is praying with us, that truth will prevail. So this stupid mountain woman is signing off at 6 AM. She has to show the builder/pastor the hardware and 40 gallons paint she bought last night when he gets here at 7, then home school to do at 8, and she is training a college student how to use Quick Books Pro at the engineering firm this afternoon. See y'all later. God bless you if you will accept it my prayer, FH PS. The biggest blessing in 2007 would count for DO's respect. I will be a grandma in a few weeks!!!!!!!   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 974 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.106.179.152 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:58 am:        Straw man, again, Prax!   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 910 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:27 am:        Hi Folks, So I still wonder, using the pork situation as the main base for discussion (although a lot of the concepts overlap, since God calls us not to pollute our bodies in an idle and careless manner) what is in fact the objection here ? The most I could see an objection to too easily bending for the sake of the visitor. This is always a difficult issue. What does the evangelist do when faced in another culture with a dinner, or customs, that are inappropriate? Often a matter of conscience. Personally I would not go out for a pepperoni pizza, or at the very least I would scrape off the ronis. . Perhaps in HH today this decision (there are a number of alternatives) is a matter of individual conscience. Here, whatever HH folks do will be used as a cause of offense by the oppos. That is their modus operandi, as they have no community, no fellowship, and no accountability for their blase attempts to distort fascinating Biblical questions for their singular-focused attempt to attack a Christian fellowship which takes their responsibilities before God earnestly, sincerely, with dedication. Shalom, Praxaluh   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 860 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:52 am:        CommonSense, You were quick to jump on Prax and yell "Straw Man", yet why were you so quiet about FH's use of the same tactic? FH accused me of calling her stupid, then proceeded to get all in a twist about it. Yet I never called her stupid. (Think about it, I live in Waco Tx, what do I have to gain from using stereotypes?) At any rate, it even further exposed FH as the hypocrite that she is. She may call people stupid all day long, yet don't you ever dare use her own language back at her!   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 976 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.106.179.152 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:15 am:        I find myself speechless in recognition of her utter stupidity. Wow, Dowen, maybe I'm stupid but I sure interpreted the above the same way FH did!   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 861 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:19 am:        Oh, but wait, I thought we could separate ones words and beliefs from them as people! Isn't that what FH does with HH? She goes on and on about how the members of HH are such good people, but what they believe is wrong and evil. She has gone to great lengths to try and separate what people believe from what they actually are. Yet, that doesn't apply to her?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 862 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:00 pm:        I have just always been under the assumption that it is OK to call people liars, nazis, fools, dupes, control freaks, power mad, etc etc, but still love them oh so very very very muuuuch. I guess in this case, what is good for the goose ain't all that great for the gander. I really am not out to call anybody names just for the sake of calling them names. I simply want FH to see that she is being shifty and hypocritical here.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1762 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.22.181 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:04 pm:        Dowen if you think HH is the right place to be please go there. You bring many things upon yourself because you preach one thing and live another. You are really a mixedup person. Your posts contain so much anger. It does not matter what you call people for facts do not lie. Are you wanting us to put names, exact dates etc. We can do that but a lot of people will be turn a shade of red...but IF that is what you really want it can be done. Many people have been deeply hurt some to the point they do not even believe God exists...Products of HH...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1763 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.22.181 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:17 pm:        I don't take my time to read Prax's posts but Daniel you need spiritual help. You are full of rage even against truths... I know that you do not know what really goes on at HH. Lots of people that live there don't even know each other but Daniel these people repeat the same stories. Does the church you go to deal with people as HH does? Examine closely the word of God. I know you do not like me but please listen to what I am saying for the sake of your soul, your family and your children. I know your folks are at HH...you are mostly sheltered from many real inside happenings. I am not on this board to discuss their doctrine but Daniel whatever they might believe or do not believe their manner is wrong. You cannot close people off from society and create a people in God's image. They are creating a people that do not know how to face the outside world... So many things are wrong there but no one dares question them for if you do you need to go pray through. The common people at HH are sweet, giving caring people but so are many cults...You might could help your family if you would open your eyes before it is too late. You being consumed by anger and fighting back does not help a people that are bound to a man made system.   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 979 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.106.179.152 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:40 pm:        Okay, Dowen, I'm a little slow, but I think I'm catching on now. Let's review: Insight into HH has credibility IF the individual: --grew up in HH but never became a member --left HH years ago and now lives in NY --is an upstanding citizen whose only exposure to HH is public events --will defend HH regardless of their involvement level Insight is NOT credible if the individual: --lived and worked in HH as a member for years but now lives in the Smoky Mountains --has extensive knowledge of HH doctrine --dares to claim from personal experience that the HH picture is not as rosy as it appears at public events --questions the biblical basis for HH "patterns" Hmmmmm....seems clear and unbiased. Don't know why it took me so long to see it! So, Dowen, would you unreservedly recommend that anyone join HH?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 475 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:59 pm:        DOwen, I never said HH members were stupid. I have frequently said they are sweet, hard working and intelligent. I am careful to differentiate between them and their doctrines. I have said many bad things about HH doctrines; one of them being that they are so deceptive that even very intelligent people have been deceived. I find myself speechless in recognition of her utter stupidity. If you meant that what I believe is stupid, what part of what I believe are you saying is stupid? Educate me.   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:21 pm:        Down, I'd like your response to this: There's a fallacy of argument here, Dowen. No offense, I don't presume to know your intentions. However, I must say, just because someone is smart, successful, righteous and affable doesn't mean that they will never be fooled. Don't misunderstand me, I'm NOT saying that this man has been fooled, I'm just saying this is a faulty argument. For example, the Mormon's are, some say, the fastest growing religious group in America. They've got LOADS of cash and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is considered by many to be one of the world's best. They have members that are extremely wealthy, I'm sure as wealthy and more-so than your friend. They have members that are intelligent: doctors, lawyers and intelligent businessmen. However, that does not mean that that means they are spiritually legit -- because they are not. Do you see the faulty logic? Just because someone's smart and successful *and* they support HH doesn't mean anything. Smart and successful people support EVERYTHING at some point. Name the cause or religion, and you can find tons of smart and successful "pillars of the community" that support that cause. It means nothing. Peace The only reason I'd like a response is because, when I peruse the archives here, I notice that you used a similar argument a time or two and I simply don't think it holds any weight whatsoever. Please know this is not by any means a personal attack against you. Like I said before, intelligent men the world over have supported and continue to support flawed religious systems. (Not that HH is a flawed system; I just don't think you can defend it the way you're trying to defend it in this post.)   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 863 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 7:15 pm:        Fair enough Tri, Yes, intelligent folks all through time have been guilty of supporting various, possible faulty, causes or Religions. I cannot argue that. What I can argue is, while I don't know all those intelligent successful folks, I do know the gentleman I spoke of at the top of this thread. I know him to be a Christian of sterling character. I know him to be a phenomenally successful business man. I know him to be an exceptional Father, Grandfather, and Great-Grandfather. And I know him to be called a duped fool by folks like Hunter and his gang who have never met him. FH and ML have never even met this man, yet they have the gall to come here and insult his, and thousands of others intelligence, by saying they are all fooled. Or duped. Or hornswaggled. Or too dumb to see through what ML, TH, GS, and FH are able to see through. Think about it Tri. Here on FN we have the word of a few hooded who knows who's (One is searching for glory, and another one resting), and maybe a handful more, going against the word of a thousand members of HH, men like the one I described above, Professors of Religion at Baylor, Pastors all over the States, the local Sheriff and hundreds of HH family members. Come on now Tri, who has more credit? The opposition wants you to believe that HH has fooled and duped all these people, phuleeeeeeze. Even if HH really wanted to dupe someone, there would be easier ways of doing it! Come on now, where is the sense of reason here? Think about it, 30 something years, and only 1000 members. If HH was really trying to fool people and suck people in, well, they did a horrible job at it. It is kind of comical actually. What I see on FACTNet is a mere handful of folks who left a Church for various reasons, and instead of moving on with their lives they have turned to a WWW message board to slander those they once called Brothers and Sisters. Reasons schmeazons, the "reality" of what FN has become is this, it has become a place for drive-by WWW gangsters like ML, Hunter (TH), SG and FH to come to, spray the board with cheap pot shots at HH, then cruise off into the sunset as heroic "Cult Busters". This is the reality of what FACTNet is. And these gangsters think they are smarter than ANYONE who might actually love and support the folks at HH. Even if that means saying a Religion professor at a world renowned Christian University is a fool. Or a Deacon of a local Church is a fool. Or local law enforcement agents are fools. Get real people.   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 981 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.235.231.148 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:23 pm:        And, Dowen, what we see is a guy who grew up in HH and seemingly supports and defends it wholeheartedly, whose family and work is there, but won't join it himself? WHY???? As I asked before, would you unreservedly recommend that anyone join HH? How about that religion professor? Have you encouraged him to join? Or the local law enforcement? What about that phenomenally successful business man? What is holding all of them back?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 864 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:30 pm:        Are you saying a Methodist shouldn't love a Baptist? And if a Methodist does love a Baptist, must he leave his Methodist Church and join a Baptist one? What about a Pentecostal? Should he love and support his Episcopalian brothers? If he does love them, must he leave Pentecostalism? What Denomination do you belong to CS? Do you love those of other denominations? Will you support your brother in another Church if he is being slandered? Or must you join his Church before you can defend him?   seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 119 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:40 pm:        God’s church is a collection of spirit-filled Christians who constitute the body of Christ. They are the many branches connected to the Vine who is Christ. The true church is a spiritual organism which knows no corporate boundaries. Some have mistakenly thought of the many different church organizations as the branches. This is simply not true. Individual Christians are the branches. Do not confuse the spiritual with the physical. When you were baptized, it was "into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, into the family of God" not into any church organization. Christians united by the Holy Spirit may voluntarily also unite into an organization to perform a common Work. Just as the Holy Spirit directs each Christian in his individual daily life, so a particular church gives direction to its members to perform a common work. Churches do this to provide a strong sense of direction so that their efforts can be better focused and coordinated to perform the work God has given them to finish. Guidelines provide a structured environment for churches. Any given church should never define the conduct of individual Christians, other than through the preaching of God's Word by its ministry, or unless the individual Christian's actions adversely affect the good of the collective church. Each Christian must decide for himself how he is going to conduct his own life. But, when it comes to common efforts of the church, then the church should provide firm direction. Guidelines are intended to provide direction so that the work of the Church has focus and, therefore, greater efficiency. How does all this apply to Homestead Heritage? Doesn’t the individual agree to the guidelines of HH prior to joining? Well, yes and no. One can only agree to the present guidelines. HH is always adding to the patterns and guidelines. And one main source of contention is the method they use to uphold these patterns. FEAR. Fear of the elders; fear of some other member ‘telling’ if your seen bending the patterns; fear of being ostracized if you decide to change your mind about a simple item. That is such a big part of what this board is all about. Not a piece of bacon or a coke but the way members are treated; the way HH hurts people spiritually and emotionally. That is what must change.   common_sense Advanced Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 982 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.235.231.148 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:41 pm:        Fair enough. So now the question is this: does the leadership of HH love and support their brothers in other denominations? Do they encourage interaction with them? As for you personally, it just seems a bit odd that you would paint this utopian picture of your upbringing in HH and choose not to be a part of it as an adult while still in such close proximity.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 915 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:54 pm:        Seekingglory, ". When you were baptized, it was "into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, into the family of God" No, SG, that may be the way you know water baptism, and Watchman, and the way of F_H and others today .... However it is not the water baptism I know, which is in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins. Thank you Lord Jesus for your word and the beautiful water baptism in your name. Shalom, Praxaluh   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 865 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:55 pm:        Hmmm, it seems several folks are posting at the same time. GlorySeeker, I will get back to parts of what you posted later. CS, Yes, not only does the leadership at HH love and support brothers and sisters in other denominations, they also encourage interaction with them. The gentleman I wrote about higher in this thread is a Deacon, I believe, in a local Church. For years, my Dad encouraged me to spend as much time with him as possible. I understand your thinking in your second paragraph above. The thing is, if you actually knew me, you wouldn't say stuff like that. Because if you knew me, you would know some of the odd, amazing, Supernatural, and just plain weird things that have happened to me over the years and shaped me into the man that I am today. I will most likely never be a member of HH. But that will never stop me from being their friend.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 478 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:08 pm:        FH and ML have never even met this man, yet they have the gall to come here and insult his, and thousands of others intelligence, by saying they are all fooled. Or duped. Or hornswaggled. Or too dumb to see through what ML, TH, GS, and FH are able to see through. Whattttt???? Never!!!!! He sound like a very intelligent man. I never accused of being dumb or unintelligent. He also sounds like he may be a devoted Christian. I would not claim to be more intelligent than him. I have a closer experience with HH who is not upfront and out in the open about what they believe. That is all. He would probably not take seven years of membership like I did to see through it.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1765 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.72.146 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:22 pm:        let me see how many revivals has HH had in the past 5 years? And who were the evangelists?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 479 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:23 pm:        God’s church is a collection of spirit-filled Christians who constitute the body of Christ. They are the many branches connected to the Vine who is Christ. The true church is a spiritual organism which knows no corporate boundaries. Some have mistakenly thought of the many different church organizations as the branches. This is simply not true. Individual Christians are the branches. Do not confuse the spiritual with the physical. Amen. The majority of Jews were looking for a physical kingdom and missed God. HH's focus is also on the physical. Even the authority of Jesus and His leading must be tangible for them through men. God's power to change men is in the Spirit, not by might or flesh.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1767 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.72.146 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:04 pm:        Phoenix fire Captain Autry Cheatham and his crew had just picked up their lunch when dispatch alerted them to a nearby shed fire. The four hoped the call would be brief as they arrived at 1222 East Clarendon, just 79 seconds later. ****It was 11:32 a.m., March 20, 1998.*** But what they observed as they pulled up to the home stunned them. Firefighter Gayland Bass recalls: "As I was going up to the fire, I was met by a little young guy who told me that his mother was trying to kill them, and she had set them on fire with gas. As I got him out of the way, I took a couple more steps. His brother was there, another little guy was there on fire. Pulled him out of the fire into the yard. "... I see the mother on the back porch with a can of gasoline, dousing herself with gas ... walking back and forth. I hit her with the hose line to put her out, and I knocked her down to the ground.... [Then] we found another little girl in the shed ... I just saw her hands, and I just blanked out." Firefighter Geronimo Ramirez Jr. picks up the narrative: "I thought I saw something moving in the backyard, and it just kind of looked like a mass there, a dark mass. And I looked at it again closer, and I could see it had feet." The mass was Kelly Louise Blake, a 34-year-old mother of three. "There was still some steam coming off her and stuff, so I went ahead and wet her with the hose." Cheatham burst into the scorching shed to try to rescue Blake's daughter, 9-year-old Venessa Fausto. His gear caught fire, but he didn't stop. "I was digging through the debris trying to get to the arm, because that's all you saw was her arm," he told police that day. "Once I got enough stuff off of her, I reached down and grabbed her arm and pulled her out. It was kind of obvious that she was dead at that point. We took her around the back and put her on the slab, and covered her up." The girl's grotesquely disfigured body lay under a bright blue blanket, next to a handpainted sign that read, "J R Snow Cones." It stood for the first names of Johnny Fausto Jr. and his younger brother, Ray; the boys used the sign when they hawked the treats in the neighborhood. Paramedic Suzie Gaw soon arrived with Engine 9. She saw 14-year-old Johnny cradling his horribly burned 12-year-old brother in the carport outside the shed door.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 866 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:05 pm:        "God's power to change men is in the Spirit, not by might or flesh." For once, FH, I agree with you. The question now becomes, when you personally witness The Power of God change someone, do you continue to write him off as "Just a man", or do you respect and honor the things he may share with you? I have seen God change men and women. I dare say you have seen God change folks. When a man or woman of God comes to you and shares with you, do you just say, "You're just a man, why should I listen to you?" or do you say, "Maybe God is speaking to me through this finite person?". I choose the latter. Your response should of course rely on the strength of your personal relationship with Jesus, using His Holy Spirit to confirm that which was shared with you. This "relying" on a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit thing is something that HH teaches with a vigor I have yet to see in any other Church. Contrary to what you scream here, The Holy Spirit DOES speak through mere men. The question is, what will you do with it? Spit on Him? Call Him names? Say "How dare you Jesus speak through a fallible man?" Will you use the man's errors and mistakes to write off what he may share with you? Or will you listen to what he may share, and say "Jesus, are you speaking to me?" (Even if He uses a donkey to speak it)   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 867 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:09 pm:        Please, everyone, do not feed the troll, which in this case is Mrs. A.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1769 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.72.146 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:26 pm:        Mrs. A a troll...give us some facts and call me whatever you want to call me... With the stones you throw I will build my castle...   not_scared New member Username: not_scared Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.176.85 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:37 pm:        ml, i knew kelly and her children. what she did was abhorent and i have never read what you posted. did hh contribute to what happened i won't comment on now. but please for the love of the lost children don't post that again. talk all you want of why it happened but i held those kids and that post hurt.   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:37 pm:        Please, everyone, do not feed the troll, which in this case is Mrs. A. While I think there is too much name-calling on this board, I'd have to agree with you here to some extent. While I don't think ML is an all-out troll, I've gotten to the point where I have to simply ignore her posts. I'm not trying to knock ML at all but I think her methods of bashing HH are ridiculous -- she does more harm then good. A few well-made points is much more effective than a million words that don't mean much. Dowen, thanks for the response. I see your point: You know and trust this man; you know he's not an idiot who could be easily duped by HH, etc. Point well taken. I think we agree in essence that all "movements" have intelligent followers to some extent. Even wise men can be fooled. Still, I'm not ready to say that HH is truly fooling any informed, wise men. However it is not the water baptism I know, which is in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins. Prax, I know the HH folks subscribe to this view of baptism as well. Were you an HH guy in the past? I never caught your background while I was looking through the threads here. I also know the view of baptism is rooted in Pentecostal/Assembly of God theology, the whole "Jesus Only" movement, etc. While I know and respect "Jesus Only" baptizers, I can not agree with their exegesis. Perhaps this isn't the forum to discuss this matter anyway. I will ask, however, a question to the Oneness and Jesus Only-baptism folks on this thread: Do you think that believers who have been baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and who believe in the orthodox view of the Trinity are truly Christians on the same level as you all are? I accept Oneness and Jesus Only believers as true brothers and sisters in Christ; although, I've always been curious as to whether the feelings were mutual.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1771 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.72.146 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:01 pm:        I wonder why that article was sent to me? I thought it was for posting.   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1773 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.72.146 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:20 pm:        I am sorry but no matter how hurtful things are, if it is true it does need to be posted. How else can HH be helped if they do not see where they are wrong? Many are trying to find out if hh drives people beyond limits...in their breaking process? Many times cuts and burns have to be cleaned out for things to heal...and people that are hurt by HH need to heal...and this is something that so many bring up...Some of us would like to know is it true? Was hh to blame? I would imagine even her children would like to know the real truth. I don't know things like this affect children in different ways. I have spent almost all my life raising street children, abused children...deep wounds are hard to heal. Did anyone take the children in and care for them?   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1774 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.72.146 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:21 pm:        Daniel asked for facts...is this a fact? a lie? a myth?   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 488 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 4:45 pm:        The question now becomes, when you personally witness The Power of God change someone, do you continue to write him off as "Just a man", or do you respect and honor the things he may share with you? I have seen God change men and women. I dare say you have seen God change folks. When a man or woman of God comes to you and shares with you, do you just say, "You're just a man, why should I listen to you?" or do you say, "Maybe God is speaking to me through this finite person?". I choose the latter. Your response should of course rely on the strength of your personal relationship with Jesus, using His Holy Spirit to confirm that which was shared with you. I have no argument with that. It is exactly how I feel and respond: "Maybe God is speaking to me through this finite person." This "relying" on a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit thing is something that HH teaches with a vigor I have yet to see in any other Church. NO, it is NOT that way in HH. HH believes in an experiential relationship with God. They believe you know God’s will through submission to a tangible authority in men set over you. In HH, it would be ok if I thought, “MAYBE God is speaking to me through this finite person,” if the person was my peer. But “MAYBE” wasn’t an option or question when it was someone in church authority. I wasn’t supposed to question their word to me. My responsibility was to submit and trust that God would cover it even if they were wrong. They taught me to trust them and doubt myself. I wasn’t even supposed to entertain doubts of whether it could or could not be God. I was supposed to accept it as God; and I did.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 489 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 5:08 pm:        An oath at Baptism; Do you confess at this time the supremacy of the will of God over your life? If so, answer, “I do.” Do you confess that God has an order by which He arranges human relationships so as to express that will” If so, answer, “I do.” constitution on membership: Allow me to quote from the last page, “You acknowledge by signing this Constitution that you hold to the Holy Bible as interpreted by the Spirit moving through the appropriate channels of leadership as your ‘curriculum,’ your course of faith, supplemented and more precisely defined and expounded by the interpretation given by the Spirit and recorded in Salvation Is of the Jews; Hallelu Yah; The Garden of God; Covenant Love; The Temple; The Bedrock; The laws of Consistency; The Foundations of the Temple Series, Volumes 1, 2 and 3; The Order of Perfection; The Service of the Temple; The Narrow Gate; Koinonia Covenant Confession; Who Owns the Children?; Wisdom’s Children; Building Christian Character; Beyond Violence; Beyond Pacifism; Culture as Spiritual War Series; Knowledge as Spiritual War Series; Justice Is Fallen; the Koinonia Curriculum and others that might be added in the future through the appropriate channels of leadership per the above, including various specific position and conviction papers, such as those on home birth and home education.”} “…Jesus said that only a slave does not know his masters business (John 15:15), and Paul declares that only those who are led by the Spirit, have knowledge of the mind of Christ(1 Cor. 2:10-16),have matured, that is, as sons of God(Rom. 8:14). This is why Paul could describe the child as a slave until the time appointed by the Father for him to come to his inheritance of sonship(Gal.4:1-2). The first level of discipleship, the situational, corresponds to this slave stage that every son passes through; he doesn't understand the will of God but rather learns the most basic lessons of submitting to authority…" When I left HH, after they had been established for at least 20 years, I asked them about this text...they admitted to me that only two and maybe a third member had reached maturity of Son-ship. The Apostle was one. They were the ones who knew the will of God. The rest stood under authority in either the slave or friend level. Only the Sons were sure to know the will of God. That is one reason why everyone else needs to be submitted to them. Dowen, most of the time you were there you were under your father's authority who was under them. You left, according to you, in rebellion. So, had you ever lived as an adult directly under the authority of the elders and had a choice to take their word as Gods or not? According to their doctrines and the teachings I sat in, I didn't have a choice.   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:25 pm:        foreverhis, Your comment above makes it sound as if the members of HH basically submit, not the the Bible as God's word, but to BH's interpretation of the Bible. Is that true? Can anyone in HH, ex-members, confirm this? Dowen, is the above quotation from foreverhis true?   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 6:35 pm:        foreverhis, Your comment above makes it sound as if the members of HH basically submit, not the the Bible as God's word, but to BH's interpretation of the Bible. Is that true? Can anyone in HH, ex-members, confirm this? Dowen, is the above quotation from foreverhis true?   not_scared Junior Member Username: not_scared Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.183.171 Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 11:48 pm:        question here, how come no one has attained the level of maturity that ba has except ba? no one else on earth has made it yet? so if ba does know the will of God, i assume it is to make all others slaves to Gods will as he, ba, interprets it? and even better administer it. so i guess everyone at hh doesn't know why they are doing what they are doing but blindly following a man who says he knows Gods will.   pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 9:35 am:        they have wonderful buildings and furniture and crafts...but so did the Shakers and where are they today? they remind me alot of the Shakers. they also had one person who was the total leader just like HH has. the shakers believed in absolute purity in each member; sects are not the Church of God...they are sects and there are fascinating things about some of them but they can never be universal; they cannot take the gospel to all the world because they cannot become all things to all men. their covenant is so tight that they are confined to a very small space.   pilgrim16 New member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 10:04 am:        to continue...the shakers had 19 settlements and attracted 200,000 people and lasted two hundred years. the leader, Mother Ann, was considered by them the absolute spiritual leader chosen by God and the one who received the revelations from God that shaped the community. even today their buildings and crafts are considered phenomenal. they have some pretty amazing similarities with HH.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 490 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.67 Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 11:03 am:        foreverhis, Your comment above makes it sound as if the members of HH basically submit, not the the Bible as God's word, but to BH's interpretation of the Bible. Is that true? That is the way it supposed to be in HH. That is what is expected of them. The submission is supposed to be more than outward obedience, it is supposed to be a heart and mind submission too. You don't even question his interpretation. (You don't become Bereans, I never even heard them mentioned when I was there.) You give BA honor, and according to BA honor includes trust. You have the faith that God can and does bring His infallible word to you through man. This is God's faithfulness to you. He wouldn't of set you in HH if you couldn't trust the leadership. To not trust them, is to not trust God. If there is a member who doesn't submit in his heart... that of course I don't know. Outwardly they would. I just can't know their heart.   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 491 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.67 Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 11:06 am:        When he got up and spoke on Sundays, even on things that were not in the Bible, it still was the "Word of God" coming to us...unquestionable. When he or an elder ministered to you. It wasn't, "Maybe this is the word of God." If it was that would of made the whole "tangible Jesus in the flesh" useless. The whole idea is that if we hear from Jesus personally, it could be what our flesh wants to hear and we can fool ourselves. But when Jesus comes in the flesh there is no mistaking what He says. You can not deny His word, will, or authority when it is standing right in front of you. Example: You have been up three nights in a row laying down your life printing brochures. You are finally done. Then they find a mistake and want them all reprinted. They tell you it can not be impossible for you. God knew/knows that this was going to happen. You need to lay down your life further for the body. You never even question if it is God's will. Everything in you saying it wrong is your flesh. So you crucify it and submit to what you know is the will of God, that which came from his tangible authority. That is just an example. You do this in every area: your diet, your service to the body, what you wear, your time... for years. So what are you going to do if your tangible Jesus says you should quit your job and work at the saw mill? What are you going to do if your tangible Jesus says you daughter is supposed to marry so and so? Are you going to start questioning him then? According to the dynamics described in BA's book Garden of God, all the small submissions are grooming you for the larger ones. See Garden of God by BA where he discribes these dynamics. In HH the Goal is to become more dependent, more submissive, and more subservient to God, aka, the Jesus in the flesh. This is maturing. Walking in obedience and submission to THIS authority of God is walking in the Spirit. This is moving forward. This is becoming One with God: Salvation. When will you become a Son of God and be led by the Spirit, and have knowledge of the mind of Christ? When it is the time appointed by the Father. So you just keep becoming "One" and pressing forward until the appointed time comes. It is not like us raising our children to become less dependent on us and more self-reliant. It is not like most pastors who have the goal to bring up mature Christians who will stand firm in their own relationship with God and become less dependent on their leadership until they don't even need it any more and become leaders themselves no longer under them. I never heard of anyone in HH maturing to the point that no longer needed BA or they were no longer under BA's authority. (Message edited by foreverhis on January 21, 2007)   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 11:47 pm:        Is anybody going to refute what foreverhis is saying? I'm surprised that Dowen or some of the exmembers in favor of HH have not refuted it. Is this true? Do members of HH follow BA without question? If BA asks you to do something, do you jump without question?   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 868 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.239.130 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 9:45 am:        Hey Tri, Sorry for not getting back with you sooner, I was out of town this weekend. I have read all of FH's ranting, and honestly, I think she has lost touch with reality. The claims she makes get wilder and sillier with every post. I find it hard to bring myself to 'refute' all of her vicious and pitiful rantings, but if you truly want me too, I will.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 923 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 9:45 am:        Hi Trilogy, Yes, I was an HH guy and I retained that view of water baptism over the years. We have discussed here a bit the doctrinal issues, as the organization of Watchman (Phillip Arnn) who is behind the brand-HH-as cult movement, actually views all oneness as cultist. For this reason the oppos don't like to discuss the issue as some proclaim oneness as foundational doctrine, others fudge, and some condemn it as heresy and doctrine of demons. They ally in their opposition to HH and don't like this underlying tension discussed, especially the mess of the views of the organizers, Watchman Fellowship. Phillip even once tried to do an anti-oneness-view-of-water-baptism posting, but his presentation was seriously flawed and the topic was dropped. It is on a thread here. > truly Christians on the same level We can see "titles" folks (usually Trinitarians) as walking with the Lord Jesus Christ, seeking to be his children, who need to receive the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins. There is a distinction in our views and while it can be put aside for fellowship and friendship and alliance (e.g reaching out to islamists and skeptics) I would draw a line when someone is supporting the 'doctrines of demons' accusation. At that point they are in a very bad way and must simply be exposed and not viewed as a Christian brother. Shalom, Praxaluh   pilgrim16 Junior Member Username: pilgrim16 Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 72.183.96.81 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 10:33 am:        prax, Adam "named" the animals but he didn't name dogs with names like "fido" or "spot." should the Bible say he "titled" the animals? Also, in Eph. Paul talks about the Father, from whom "every family on heaven and earth takes it "Name." should it say instead, "takes it title?"   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 7:43 pm:        I find it hard to bring myself to 'refute' all of her vicious and pitiful rantings, but if you truly want me too, I will. No worries, Dowen. :-)   wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:03 pm:        I would like to start a new thread devoted to Facts. (Do facts with a capital ‘F’ differ from facts with a lower case ‘f’?) I have been involved in various aspects of business for several years now, and I have learned that there are simple facts that are always true across the broad plane of life. (If this is the premise of your post, then what are the ‘simple facts’ that you are trying to communicate?) These facts are what I want to devote this thread to. (Again, since you have repeated it, what are these facts?) There is a certain businessman in Waco that I know very well. This man is what anyone in the world would call 'accomplished'. (Accomplishment varies from one individual to another. What one name calls accomplishment, another may not. But I will accept you version as ‘fact’.) His choice of business was the retail industry, and for many years he was the best in the industry. (Best in the business is subjective, therefore it is an opinion, not fact, since you can’t qualify ‘best’. For example, who is the greatest baseball player? It all depends on the criteria that you are using.) I don't mean just in a local market, I mean in a global market. He was a key player for one of the largest retailers in the world. He hired and fired more people than most of us will meet in a lifetime. He turned a large company into a global empire. He was, in simple terms, a giant of the retail industry. Yet this man is one of the simplest, hardest working, plainspoken men one could ever hope to meet. He could have reached h(e)ights of profit and popularity that are presently unknown to man. (Doubtful, unless his name is Bill Gates. The level would have been known to man. Don’t exaggerate to try to make a point, it will only detract from what you are attempting to convey) His brother was the Mayor of a city that hosts the most recognizable professional sports name in the history of the world. (Relatives aren’t the person. Who, or what his brother has accomplished have no bearing on the individual that you are talking about. Keep to the topic and avoid extraneous material.) This man could have been an icon of the retail world. (By what you have written above, it seem that he already was an ‘icon’) And yet, when he was at the threshold of what could have been the greatest part of his career, he retired. (This is subjective, some people only rise to a certain level. He may have reached his, or he could have gone higher than even you could imagine. We can’t speculate.) to be continued...   wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:13 pm:        Why did he retire? It was simple, he wouldn't work on Sunday. He retired beca(u)se of personal convi©tion. He retired because of honor. (I assume the honor you speak, is honor towards his conviction. If so, clearly state it. Don’t assume your reader would necessarily understand it. And definitely don’t leave anything for your reader to infer. When you leave them to infer, it usually means that you want them to infer something other than what is the truth, or else you would have plainly stated that truth. I see a tremendous amount of inference from many of the posters here on both sides of the issue. An example of ‘inferring’: am I to infer from these few sentences that it is honorable not to work on Sunday? Or is the honorableness(?) in obeying ‘a’ conviction, not that the specific conviction is not working on Sunday?) Today, this same man is a supporter of HH. This is what I call "reality". You have stated some facts about this man (some of which are subjective, so those are more opinion than fact), and ended with the man’s opinion of Homestead Heritage. Where are the ‘simple facts that are always true across the broad plane of life’? If you are going to start with a premise, you need to follow with supporting evidence for that premise. Maybe you should have started with, ‘Here is a character witness for Homestead Heritage. Here are his credentials.’ Then what you wrote above would be in support of your opening statement. You have demonstrated a lack of argumentative skills. ...one final post to go...   wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 6:25 pm:        FH and her little mob love to sit at their computers and piously judge HH, yet the unsung hero's of this whole issue are those like the man I described above. (And in what way is he an ‘unsung hero?’ Because he supports your views? Because he is a business success? What if ForeverHis brings forth another business man of equal business acumen and conviction, and he stated the opposite about Homestead Heritage than did your businessman? Is this man then also an ‘unsung hero’?) The man I described above single handedly turned a fledgling company (You wrote above that it was a large company. A fledgling company would be a small just starting out company.) into a global behemoth (Believe me, no one man can do it, it takes others also. Don’t try to inflate his status. I’m very certain he would tell you the same thing.), and yet his word means nothing to the big mouthed delusional posters like FH and ML. (Argumentum ad hominem is generally reserved for those times when you cannot win the argument on merit and instead try to discredit your opposition. Attack the topic, instead of the person, and you’ll convince more people.) I look at people like FH, people who think they have everything figured out, and I just laugh. (By the same token, don’t put yourself in their ‘shoes’ and think that you have it all figured out. Be man enough to say, “I don’t know. I’m not sure.” Sometimes we only ‘feel’ the front of the elephant and think it’s a rope.) This lady somewhere in the Smokey Mountains (Actually the Smoky Mountains are on the Tennessee/North Carolina border. ForeverHis states she lives in Kentucky, so your geography is in error) thinks she has HH all figured out. Whatever. (Statements such as this do not lend themselves to a quality argument.) When I try to balance her so called "wisdom" against the wisdom of a man who ran a multi million dollar multi national business, I find myself speechless in recognition of her utter stupidity. (Wisdom is displayed in many different ways. I have an IQ in the genius range, yet I severely lack in some areas of common sense. For instance, do not try to swat a biting insect on your arm with a knife. There is business wisdom, sports wisdom, spiritual wisdom, hospitality wisdom, etc. Wisdom in one area doesn’t necessarily translate into wisdom in another.) Robin can say her little "prayers" here all she wants, yet when I hear the man I speak of above say a prayer of Blessing over HH, my Amen will certainly be much louder! Daniel, you need to focus on your debating skills. If you want to be more effective you’ll have to do better. I was thinking of rewriting your post for you. I wanted to show a more effective way to bring across your point. But, expounding on a character witness doesn’t address any issue at all. Therefore, the entire basis of your post is flawed.   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 372 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 7:29 pm:        Dowen, Wise As A Serpent's post seems, well "wise as a serpent", you may should consider it. Your friend seems like an admirable person of some influence. However, does this man have children or grandchildren in HH? You mention that this man who is so successful and a deacon in a local church and that your Dad told you to spend as much time as possible with this man. I was in HH for awhile and I know your Dad would not suggest you spend time with an outsider unless he or your mom had a relationship with that person. You mention this man is a "great dad and grandad". I know it is not your grandad on your dad's side as I have said I know him. Could this be your grandad on your mother's side? SN and your mom are sisters and I remember their dad and mom coming to some events. There is nothing wrong with admiring any man for the right reasons especially a man's granddad. Daniel don't you think that if this man is your granddad that it would put a different light on your post? I mean if two of his daughters are in HH along with a passel of grandkids wouldn't that be a compelling reason to maintain a relationship with HH so he could see his kids and grandkids? Don't you think it might explain part of the reason your dad wanted you to spend time with him? I do not know that the man you describe is your grandfather, but if it is it would explain allot. If it is did your dad have anyone else not a relative or someone in HH that he encouraged you to spend time with? Please do not misunderstand if it is your grandfather I am not doubting his integrity. As I mentioned I admire a man that lives by his convictions. Please answer. Under Grace   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 373 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 7:50 pm:        Trilogy you ask…….. [Foreverhis, Your comment above makes it sound as if the members of HH basically submit, not the the Bible as God's word, but to BH's interpretation of the Bible. Is that true? Can anyone in HH, ex-members, confirm this? Dowen, is the above quotation from foreverhis true?] Again after another post by Foreverhis Trilogy asks… [Is anybody going to refute what foreverhis is saying? I'm surprised that Dowen or some of the exmembers in favor of HH have not refuted it. Is this true? Do members of HH follow BA without question? If BA asks you to do something, do you jump without question?] Dowen responds after … [Hey Tri, Sorry for not getting back with you sooner, I was out of town this weekend. I have read all of FH's ranting, and honestly, I think she has lost touch with reality. The claims she makes get wilder and sillier with every post. I find it hard to bring myself to 'refute' all of her vicious and pitiful rantings, but if you truly want me too, I will.] Trilogy, The simple answer is yes “the members of HH basically submit, not to the Bible as God’s word, but to BA’s interpretation (I would add to his additions) of the Bible. Is that true?” Answer yes it is true. Dowen is not going to call FH names and dismiss this. Go back and read the posts this is brought out on SEVERAL HUNDRED of them. Under Grace   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 496 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 9:02 pm:        This WAS writen by HH titled “How Do You Know?” From pages 81 & 82 ....so John gives the church the test to protect each flock from the hostile and murderous spirit of antichrist, warning us not to trust or ''believe'' those who have a spirit that cannot fully and certainly accept the anointing in ''us,'' who cannot accept the same authority that Jesus possessed as it '' continues to come in our human nature." If they cannot receive the Word that the ministry preaches as indeed it is, the Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13), if they cannot accept as constitutional (apart from their own decision in each situation) that the ministry beseeches them "in Christ's stead'' (2Cor. 5:20, KJV), if they cannot fully and certainly confess that Jesus' anointing continues to come in the flesh, in ''our human nature," in the local expression of the corporate Body of Jesus to which God would join them, but rather they refuse to "listen to us," then they are not to be received into fellowship in the Body. ..... Jesus then said In His ''good confession," ''Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." This is the same as John's test: ''We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us'' (1 John 4:6). Someone who refuses to submit to God's definition of truth expressed in the authority of tangible human flesh simply desires to manipulate the truth to correspond to his own desires. He resists any truth that would represent a given beyond his own mind, and so he denies any tangible authority that would testify to the absoluteness of truth. Such a person cannot hear God's voice in human flesh, for he desires to leave truth in the abstract, relativist realm of his own mind....   foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 497 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 9:06 pm:        From page 83 Paul underscores this necessity to discern God's authority in human flesh when he says that ''faith comes by hearing'' but ''hearing'' must be ''by the Word of God," and how can they ''hear without a preacher?'' (Rom. 10:14, 17, NKJV). Believers must receive the Word ''as it really is," the Word of God spoken through human flesh ''sent from God." To hear the Word as the word of mere men profits the hearer nothing. They must discern the Body of Christ (1 Cor.11:29) as speaking the anointed Word to them. Yet Paul says, ''but they [who have heard] had not all obeyed the gospel (Rom. 10:16, KJV). From page 84 All will be tested by the increasing light of God’s restored covenant. And the supream questions in this test are: “will it be revealed that we truly belong to Jesus? Are we willing to have Him define all our covenants and have His desires become ours? Can we submit to God’s authority in human flesh, or will it become a rock of offence to us? When the Son of man returns will He find faith in our hearts (Luke 18:8)?” So this authority, as Jesus said (John 17:2-3), becomes then critical in our ability to know God. From pages 94 & 95 A prospective member must trust the Spirit to give him the perfect doctrinal interpretation of God's Word, but he must also remember that because of both his limited function and his carnal nature, that interpretation will not necessarily or even normally originate through the individual himself. Paul said in Romans, ''Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,'' but "how shall they hear without a Preacher and how can they preach unless they are sent?" (Rom. 10:17, 14-15, NKJV). So if the Spirit leads a prospective member into covenant relationship with a Christian fellowship, he must trust that God plans to reveal His truth to him through them....   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1783 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.58.190 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 9:33 pm:        How could I have ever been so foolish to believe them???   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 869 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:32 pm:        Hello Serpent, It's interesting to see you back here, and thanks for your input. Also, thanks for the geography and grammar lessons. I welcome all criticism (although I do prefer the constructive type). You hissed, coiled around, and struck at my post from all angles, yet you missed the central point of it. I know I am not the most eloquent of writers, and for that I apologize. Perhaps you missed my point because of this, so again, I apologize. What I had hoped to accomplish in my post was to provoke honesty in the HH opposition. All of the discussion here on FN is worthless without honesty, and IMHO, honesty in the opposition is just about impossible to find. Snake, your wife and her friends here on FN are attempting to call men, like the gentleman I described at the top of this thread, idiots. ForeverHisSerpent, I challenge both of you to be Honest with yourselves, and think again about the path of animosity toward HH that both of you have chosen to tread. This path has caused you to call brilliant men fools. This path has caused you to call law enforcement officers dolts and idiots. And most importantly, this path has put you at odds with a thousand fellow members of the Body of Christ. It really is a shame. Dearest Snake, in regards to your comments about the gentleman I spoke of at the top of this thread, I assure you, he is everything I said of him, and more. I was in fact modest in my description of him. Mock my writing style all you like, but your sporadic hissings are truly venomless, in my opinion.   seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 122 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 10:35 pm:        People generally join Homestead Heritage because of a perceived path to honor God, to improve their personal walk with Jesus and to care for others through the form of community. These folks are generally most often altruistic, trusting persons who may be somewhat naïve. The majority are unaware of the method Homestead uses to recruit, school, and retain members. By using the enticements of a unique fellowship within a special community they employ thought reform processes that affect the decision making and commitments of the person who enters and stays. The techniques and methods Blair Adams uses and promotes creates a vast range of consequences—psychological, spiritual, social, and financial—suffered by those dominated and controlled by this man gone astray on a personal power trip. Blair and his ‘elders’ use guilt, fear, and intimidation to control the members. They employ the 10 basic methods as seen in so many abusive churches; control-oriented leadership, spiritual elitism, manipulation of members, perceived persecution, life-style rigidity, emphasis on experience, suppression of dissent, harsh discipline of members, denunciation of other churches, and the infliction of painful exit processes. Any person with HH membership experience can testify that the leaders of HH use all ten of these methods. Blair and Howard teach members to accept values and conduct that modify reality. Whatever they want to do is taught as doctrine. I can just hear Blair saying to himself many years ago, “if I create a community that obeys my rules, these rules are then reality, and if I declare myself a pastor I can put God's imprimatur on my wishes, my fantasies, my desires." How can he get away with it? He simply sets up a system where he is accountable to no one and therefore beyond confrontation Once a person is able to break free from HH then healing must occur. Finding confidence again to approach group or church affiliation and overcoming distorted spirituality are part of a long list of problems to sort out and deal with on the path to recovery. Prax would have you believe that this church is innocent of all charges and most posters here are spiritually dead. But without knowing the heart of any of the posters it is possible to draw a conclusion to all this by remembering.................. Any group that leaves a trail of broken people should be avoided. There is something fundamentally wrong with a church that has destroyed the lives of so many people.   wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 9:07 am:        Hello Serpent, It's interesting to see you back here, and thanks for your input. Also, thanks for the geography and grammar lessons. I welcome all criticism (although I do prefer the constructive type). (If you are open to it, it was constructive criticism.) (more to follow...) You hissed, coiled around, and struck at my post from all angles, yet you missed the central point of it. (Your central point, as stated in your opening sentence and reiterated in the next paragraph was “…that there are simple facts that are always true across the broad plane of life.” You have failed to deliver on this premise. If your point was emphasizing a character witness, then state so.”) I know I am not the most eloquent of writers, and for that I apologize. Perhaps you missed my point because of this, so again, I apologize. What I had hoped to accomplish in my post was to provoke honesty in the HH opposition. (There was no supporting evidence of this, in fact there was nothing written that even touched on this premise, so I guess that I and probably everybody else who read your post missed your point.) All of the discussion here on FN is worthless without honesty, and IMHO, honesty in the opposition is just about impossible to find. Snake, (Still can’t get away from argumentum ad hominem. Doing so belittles what you are attempting to convey.) your wife and her friends here on FN are attempting to call men, like the gentleman I described at the top of this thread, idiots. (I believe, the word is deceived. There is a difference between the two, and they are not mutual inclusive one to the other.) ForeverHisSerpent, (And aren’t you constantly criticizing others for calling people name and demanding that they stop? Rise above it and don’t lower yourself to their level. Otherwise, you cries of hypocrite will fall on deaf ears.) I challenge both of you to be Honest with yourselves, and think again about the path of animosity toward HH that both of you have chosen to tread. (I have not posted in a year and half, I made no disparaging remark towards Homestead Heritage in this post, yet you assume that I have a ‘path of animosity towards HH’. So you know how I feel at this time?) This path has caused you to call brilliant men fools. (Please highlight where I called this man a fool? I never even called him deceived, duped and blinded. I never called or inferred anything about him, other then your report of him may have been exaggerated a bit.) This path has caused you to call law enforcement officers dolts and idiots. (Again, please show me where I have done this? If, you feel you must bring an accusation against me, and not others posters, by all means bring forth the evidence.) And most importantly, this path has put you at odds with a thousand fellow members of the Body of Christ. (By the same logic, one could say that your path puts you at odds against a thousand others of the Body of Christ. I’m fairly certain that the other posters on this board could find just as many people who think the opposite of your thousand. Numbers do not make right. This is a form of argumentum ad populum.) It really is a shame. more to follow...   wise_as_a_serpent New member Username: wise_as_a_serpent Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 9:09 am:        Dearest Snake, in regards to your comments about the gentleman I spoke of at the top of this thread, I assure you, he is everything I said of him, and more. I was in fact modest in my description of him. Mock my writing style all you like, but your sporadic hissings are truly venomless, in my opinion. (I wasn’t mocking your style at all. I was constructively criticizing its content. I was attempting to help you in your argument, by pointing out the shortcoming in it. Not once in my entire post did I call a name, criticize anybody or anything at Homestead Heritage, discuss their doctrine or write one iota of anything that could even be construed as anti-Homestead Heritage. Please check your anger at the door next time.)   trilogy New member Username: trilogy Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.212.164 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 12:37 pm:        who need to receive the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins. Prax, thanks for the response. I appreciate your honesty. While I don't think that baptism does anything to assuage sins, I do respect your position. Peace.   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 942 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 1:19 pm:        Most welcome, Trilogy. We can have a doctrinally significant yet ultra-respectful and cordial difference in views .   praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 943 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 1:28 pm:        S_G "I can just hear .. saying to himself many years ago, “if I create a community ..." This is so clueless I simply want to note it and go on. And point out that even most of the oppos say that they believe the motives and intentions towards community were sincere and earnest and not personal aggrandizement in any way. S_G appears to be an exception on that one. From the point of one who was actively involved in the days and years leading up to the move to Colorado, the beginnings of crafts and farming activities, I will simply say that S_G should be aware that he is speaking improperly and falsely in his accusation and attempt to impugn integrity. Shalom, Praxaluh   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 377 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 4:43 pm:        Hey Dowen, Thanks for your kindness in my coming out post I think you at least understand why I valued ananemity. I do not know how much longer I will be posting on Factnet. Let me congratulate you on the above post when you said....."What I had hoped to accomplish in my post was to provoke honesty in the HH opposition. All of the discussion here on FN is worthless without honesty, and IMHO, honesty in the opposition is just about impossible to find." How about some honesty. You started this thread speaking about your friend you admire so much. Once again I am going to ask you is this man your grandfather? If it is it does throw a very different light on what you wrote. Your parents of course would encourage you to spend time with your granddad especially a man as Godly and accomplished as your mom's dad. I know your granddad respects and loves your family and your aunt's family. It does not however, mean that he agrees with the doctrine in HH. You are a luckey man Dowen, whether this man is your granddad or not you have one of the richest heritage I have seen in both sets of grandparents and in your uncles and in your aunt that I know. You have every right to be proud of the heritage that God has given you. Under Grace   not_scared Junior Member Username: not_scared Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.180.115 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 10:17 pm:        full disclosure is only fair.   dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 871 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 11:46 pm:        Hello NS, I do not want to offend you, but it is hard for me to take someone asking for "full disclosure" seriously, when he himself does not even disclose his own identity. Personally, it makes no difference to me who you are, you have your own view of things, and I respect that. But by your anonymously asking for "full disclosure", you put yourself in an odd situation. As for the gentleman I spoke of, he is not one that HH, and especially any of the detractors of HH, could fool. He is a brilliant man who loves and supports HH. Does he have differences with HH? Most certainly. The differences are not an issue though because of a simple thing called respect. HH respects him, he respects HH. Because of this, there is a vibrant relationship between he and HH. Each and every one of you could have that same type of relationship with HH, if you would be respectfully honest with them. My family is full of examples of this. DOwen. Oh, and yes, the gentleman I spoke of is a family member. Since he does not post here, I'd rather not use his name. Please respect that. The question the detractors need to ask is whether or not they are willing to look him, and countless other Christians, all in the eye and call them fools. The Hunter already has, so who else is willing to take a plunge into his black hole of bigotry? In this case, silence will speak volumes...   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1788 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.120.72 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 12:16 am:        Many people have been fooled...just because he is brilliant does not mean he can be fooled...sounds like you know little history...lol   under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 379 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.193.215.136 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:26 am:        Dowen, Thanks for responding. I do not think the man you speak of is a fool nor anything close to it. He is everything you speak about him from what I remember. I have also read about and admired his ministry in recent years. Not wanting full discloser just a note that spending time with your grandfather is not quite the same as spending time with a friend outside the fellowship. A person that has kids or grandkids in HH is most likely not going to do something on purpose to jeopardize the relationship with his flesh and blood. Under Grace   missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1791 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.137.249 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 8:29 am:        Many cults and dangerous ones at that have fooled the most educated... I live in a country that our president hates Americans and tells lies on America...I deal with people everyday that ask me questions about our country...doctors, lawyers, business people, owners of multi billion dollar firms... I personally know Medical doctors that have studies in the highest universities and practice witchcraft in its lowest forms at night in the wooded areas and cemeteries. It is not the fact if a person is suscessful or not it is a solid fact that many sucessful people have been fooled.   not_scared Junior Member Username: not_scared Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 166.165.183.111 Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 7:50 pm:        no worries dowen, just kinda saying what ug just said.

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