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True or False

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Testimony majajh 46 1 11-30-07 8:17 pm

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missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1731
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.55.136

Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:24 am:

true or false?

HH has a place where the people can dump their "trash" mail by the mail boxes? Of course trash mail to them means magazines and the like.

HH teaches their people NOT to read Times. News Week etc?

HH teaches their people NOT to read a common Newspaper?

HH teaches their people not to read other religious teachings?

HH teaches their people that HH has a new insight of patterns for the church?

HH teaches their people that the authority there is Jesus in the flesh?

HH has closed Sunday Services (for their people only and only with special permission can a visitor be invited?)

HH has ONE apostle namely Blair Adams?

Blair Adams has no organization or brothers over him?

HH people are free to read Factnet? (openly)

HH people are free to visit other churches?

HH people are free to listen to radio, have a television, ect?

HH people are free to read an Irvin Baxter Magazine? (It is not the point if I agree or disagree with IB)

HH people are free to use birth control?

HH people are free to put their kids in public school?

HH people are free to openly at their wish have their babies in the hospital?

HH people KNOW what level their leaders consider them on?

HH people have been taught that BA has God's latest revelations?

HH people have been taught that God is constantly revealing new lights and patterns?

HH believe that BA has reached the level of perfection?

HH people are taught that perhaps HW has reached the level of perfection?

HH are taught that there is a direct channel of command from God...and BA is His first earthly contact?

HH people are taught to lie about what they believe to outsiders and say that is wisdom?

HH people are taught that there is a coming time of tribulation and HH will have bread for coming days for the people that will come running to them?

HH were taught at the last fair I attended that the slide show would be a great revelation from God etc...?

HH people are taught and prophecied to that God will use their patterns to bring a revelation to the earth?

HH people are taught to think whatever "authority" says is right and not to question it?

Now I await answers...Many of these things I have written proof that HH teaches these things and many more...

Really I do not care what they teach, people fall for anything except for the fact that they are brainwashing their people. America is a free land...but to brainwash people into believing that HH is some special place with special revelations is wrong and BA knows that.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:39 pm:

And a side note for all the good people still in HH. Please consider all those that have come and gone. It took some significant event to shake them loose from the bonds they allowed themselves to be held by. I pray you too will one day see the light. Please look for the light now. Don�t waste time. You are investing precious years in an atmosphere unbeneficial to God�s kingdom. At least open your mind�s eye and think outside your allotted box. The wheels are beginning to fall off because God is fed up with all He is witnessing in HH. Step back and look around. See the whole picture. It�s gotten ugly. What you see is not of God. If you decide to close your eyes and stay, I'll keep praying for you but................you can�t say, �I didn�t know�.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 886
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:57 pm:

And a side note for all the good people still in HH. Please consider all those that have come and gone. It took some significant event to shake them loose from the bonds they allowed themselves to be held by.

...significant event to shake them loose from the bonds they allowed themselves to be held by.

This quote is key.

What bonds do you allow yourself to be held by?

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1811
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.12.64.112

Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:25 pm:

The bonds of Christ and HIM alone...not some "madeup" bunch of laws...

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 887
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:11 pm:

Mrs. Alvear, by your own admission, you are under bondage to your own interpretation of what "The bonds of Christ" really are. You chose those self interpreted bonds, and you live by them.

HH is doing the same.

Why don't you take a break from your harsh and intolerant rhetoric against HH and treat them like you want to be treated.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1812
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.12.64.112

Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 10:30 am:

HH knows NOTHING of what the bonds of Christ would even be like...you are a poor one to judge... Never been a baptized member of hh and you sure know nothing of my church...go read your Bible ans see if the bonds of Christ relate to my true and false questions above...
You show YOUR lack of knowledge of knowing Christ...His bonds do not MAKE people not go on vacations with their children just because some so called leader does not want them together...lol. His bonds are not selfish bonds. His bonds do not drive people into killing their own. His YOKE IS EASY...His bonds do not drive people to run tattle on each other, his bonds do not treat people harsh like you have used the word saying I am harsh....How would you know...I invite you DANIEL to call any of my homeland suppoerters that have known me 40 years and ask if I am harsh. I invite you to come to Brazil and ask the people of my church if I am harsh?
I have never mistreated my church people, screamed out in a service, dismissed a service in anger because somebody could not sing "my" song...shall I define harshness that I saw at HH?

did my best to over look many wrong things I saw and heard there looking for the good there...All I saw was fear, bitteness and tattle tales...
all I heard was do not say this or that in front of so and so they will run tell...don't let anyone know this or that...don't tell anyone we did this or that...lol...
NO, I am not used to a Jesus like that...

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 968
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 5:37 pm:

And the tone (arrogance, bluster, anger, bitterness, agitated, feigned mockery, repetition) with which you write indicates that you are far from Jesus in any and every way today, definitely in anything related to HH. You remain consumed, bond, and Jesus would truly have you seek a change of heart.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1813
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.12.65.232

Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:42 pm:

your words have no meaning...go do something to save souls...

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 969
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 6:26 am:

Mrs. Alvear, the problem is not your works around Brazil.
That has its own history, and, by God's grace, its own reward.

The problem is that your heart is consumed with bitterness.
This comes forth clear as a summer day on this forum.

And whether in Brazil, USA, the cities or the backwoods,
your heart is always with you.

God is not mocked,
the good works do not mask.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

common_sense
Advanced Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 995
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.232.174.87

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:15 am:

A Bitter spirit (variation "Don't be bitter"): (1) The charge made against a person because that person still stands by what they first said. (2) Former members who say anything negative about the church or group are charged with having "a bitter spirit", so what they say is not given any credibility and ignored even though it is factually true. (3) "Don't be bitter." Said by the truly unkind in order to deeply wound, for (spiritually abused) survivors aren't bitter--we just hurt... a lot! Said to shame, usually in a very public venue and/or in front of other kind people or, worst of all, in front of the "Undecideds" who, upon hearing this condemnation, decide that yes, the (spiritually abused) survivors are indeed "bitter", when all we are doing is hurting... a lot!

http://www.batteredsheep.com/church-speak.html

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.12.65.232

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:05 am:

I am not bitter I am wiser than I was when I went to the village...

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 523
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.130

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:27 am:

Was Jesus bitter when he cleared the temple?

The pharisees could take it how they wanted. They could say He was an arrogant bitter mad man. But when it came down to it... they really needed to deal with what He was saying. They had either turned God's house into a den of robbers or they hadn't.

You don't like the message so you slay the messenger.

English is not the primary language for ML. It doesn't come across as smoothly and sugared as you might hope and her use of "lol" (laughing out loud) may be an attempt to lighten her response to you in a way that could be taken as mocking. Printed conversation is tough enough with two people who use the same language day in and day out and respect each other. Conversation with someone who is arrogant enough to judge your heart and intentions IS aggravating.

Why don't you deal with the message and leave her delivery alone... Admit it, you don't like the message. It is hard to excuse some of the practices in HH. Someone might agree with their practices, but they know they are an offence to most people. It is easier to slay the messenger... judge her heart... get people to discount her message by defaming her character or her manner delivery instead of dealing with its content.

It is a debating tactic and one that is easily recognized. It may be a smart and acceptable tactic in the political field, but it lacks integrity; especially among Christians who know better than to judge someone�s heart. I suggest you leave the heart judging to God and deal with the content of the message.

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 970
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:32 am:

Yes, it is always strange to see the psychobabble
constructs that will be used against any true form
of Christianity. We can be sure such men, plying
their wares to the unwary, would accuse Jesus,
they would accuse Paul.

And James spoke very clearly, this applies to the
loose tongues of bitterness that we see here.
This applies whether one has great respect for HH
or if one is unsure or questioning of their place
as men and women of God.

James 3
Even so the tongue is a little member,
and boasteth great things.
Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place
sweet water and bitter?

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts,
glory not,
and lie not against the truth.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1815
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.12.63

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:42 pm:

and a true watchman warns...
I hope when my people that I have worked with for 40 years look in my face in my casket they know I was not perfect but they will also know I reached and did everything in my power to help them and when I was wrong and that has been many times as their missionary I have asked their forgiveness...and bringing HH people was an example...we learned that everything that shines is not gold...

Fools gold shines and that is what I found when it cracked...fool's gold...I walked away not bitter as you post Prax but sad, very sad...It was a sad day for me for I had to call all my friends and tell them they were right and I was wrong...but I did it..
I am a leader of over 10 thousand people and growing everyday...I do not deserve this honor but with it comes a great responsibility.
I am just a simple old lady...you make fun of my writing and belittle everything I say....however God is using me to get the message across...so pack up your big words and lean about a Jesus that is meek and lowely...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1816
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.12.63

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:53 pm:

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 971
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:55 pm:

Mrs. Alvear,
"you make fun of my writing and belittle everything I say"

However that is simply untrue, as I do not make
fun of your writing. I am concerned for your
heart in this matter and I make that very clear.

When you talk about general matters, or real
doctrinal issues, or missionary work and Brazil, I
have 'belittled' absolutely nothing. Even
occasionally about your times with HH you
have written with some sincerity.

However, now, this has degenerated. Most everything
you say here about HH is one-sided, dubious, acrimonious
and much worse (until about a month ago).

So I do in fact share my heart to you and the
forum on those matters, quite simply.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1817
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.12.63

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 12:57 pm:

the greatest outburst of anger in the ministry of our dear Lord was when HE SAW THE PEOPLE BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF IN HIS HOUSE..by the ministry...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1818
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.12.63

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 1:00 pm:

the greatest outburst of anger in the ministry of our dear Lord was when HE SAW THE PEOPLE BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF IN HIS HOUSE..by the ministry...

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:38 pm:

Prax,

Janice is serving the Body of Christ with her words and thoughts on this board.
You and Daniel find it offensive because it censures a group of men you promote.

The book of Titus, primarily Titus 1:10-16, helps us to understand why the work of Janice on this board is so important. Paul is telling Titus why he is in Crete. The presence of false teachers was causing real problems among believers and was a danger to the health of the churches that had been established there.

Paul's ministry was plagued by Judaizers. These were Jews who professed faith in Christ, but attempted to wed the truth of Christianity with the Law and other Jewish ideas. Does this sound like HH? This is the same group that Paul mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:3-11. The Book of Galatians was written to combat their error as well as other portions of Paul's letters (cf. Col. 3:16-23). The false teachers in Homestead take the truth and mix it with error.

In verse 1:11 Paul says these false teachers must be "silenced." The way they can be silenced was mentioned in verse 9: "Exhort in sound doctrine" "Refute those who contradict"

"Because they are upsetting whole families" - This is the reason they must be silenced and not allowed to continue. There is no freedom given in the Word of God for men to teach whatever they want. The church is to be the "pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Whole households are being overthrown or destroyed by the false teaching of HH. This is similar to what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:6. There, women are influenced by false teachers with disastrous results. I remember asking one mother in HH when she would rest and enjoy a bit of life. She replied she would rest in Heaven. Until then she works like a slave. Satan began in the Garden with the woman and that is often the way he works today.

"For the sake of sordid gain" - The basic motivation of the leaders of HH is money. They have all their needs taken care of and they rule over a large group of willing �slaves�.

Because of this, these false teachers in HH must be dealt with firmly even though you consider her words harsh and bitter. No, Janice is following biblical instruction.

"Reprove them" - This is the same word used in verse 9 and translates "refute." They are to be rebuked or corrected.

"Severely" - This word means "sharply, harshly." There must be a firm and decisive response to the false teaching that is going on back then in Crete and today in HH. This becomes personal because it is the false teachers themselves who are to be reproved severely.

cont...............

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 135
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:39 pm:

cont.............

In verse 1:14 being healthy in the faith means you avoid and don't pay attention to the false teaching. This is much-needed admonition today when many believers are allowing themselves to be influenced by teaching that is contrary to the Word of God. Colossians 2:16-23 and 1 Timothy 1:3-11 should be compared to this verse.

In verse 1:15 Paul is talking in the context of Judaizers who would make the observance of laws regarding food and drink a necessary part of submission to God. Another example of the teaching in HH. The point is that these externals do not make a person pure or impure (Mark 7:14,15; 18-23; Rom. 14:14,20; 1 Tim. 4:1-4). The problem is not external - one of defilement through food - but internal. It is not the impure thing which makes men impure, as the Jews erroneously held, but it is impure men who make every pure thing impure, a truth foreshadowed in Haggai 2:13.

Verse 1:16 ought to be studied by all those who keep saying, "Judge not lest you be judged." I saw Pureheart and Daniel use this repeatedly.

So, final thought, these false teachers claimed to know God, and yet their deeds, just like the deeds of HH, showed them to be liars. These Jews (v. 10) prided themselves on being those who had a special relationship with God. Doesn�t HH preach and teach that THEY have a special relationship with God; a relationship that NO OTHERS have! I heard it many times with my own ears. Kind of sickens me when I think back that I was a part of that thinking for a time!

Salvation is by grace through faith. Our works testify as to whether our salvation is real or not (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph, 2:8-10).

So Janice is just offering a strong warning concerning the danger of the false teaching in HH. The leaders there must be silenced, and it falls to others in the Body, especially folks like Janice, to lead the way in maintaining the purity of the body. We are all responsible to avoid false teaching, to pay no attention to it and to warn others about it. So Steven, put a cork in it. Janice is blessed by her actions. It is her DUTY to stand on the rooftops and declare her knowledge of HH and warn others away from HH. Good Day............................

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 972
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:56 pm:

S_G
"For the sake of sordid gain" -
The basic motivation of the leaders of HH is money."

Hmm...
Now that one with some heart has left ..
Will any of the remaining oppos show integrity ?

Do you all like to be led by the nose by
the sick vitriol ?

1 Peter 3:15-16
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready always to give an answer
to every man that asketh you a reason
of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience;
that, whereas they speak evil of you,
as of evildoers,
they may be ashamed that falsely accuse
your good conversation in Christ.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 136
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:58 pm:

1. Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?

2. Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?

3. Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?

4. Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?

5. Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?

6. Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?

7. Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?

8. Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?

9. Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?

10. Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests?

11. Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?

12. Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?

"If you answered "no" to all of the above 12 questions, your church is very healthy. If you answered "yes" to three or more, your church is showing signs of being unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to six or more, your church is very unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to eight or more, your church is a full-blown authoritarian cult."

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 137
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:02 pm:

HH fits 8 or more!

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 138
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:04 pm:

By the way, since we post and you oppose our posts...........you are the 'oppos'. LOL

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:07 pm:

Prax, your empty reply falls flat.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 140
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:09 pm:

Time is up. Only get a short time on the computer. Gotta share it. See you tomorrow night.

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 974
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:15 pm:

Since a confused posting blizzard was apparently
designed (perhaps unknowingly, a conviction of unease),
meant to hide the word of God, these verses bear
reshowing and reading.

1 Peter 3:15-16
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready always to give an answer
to every man that asketh you a reason
of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience;
that, whereas they speak evil of you,
as of evildoers,
they may be ashamed that falsely accuse
your good conversation in Christ.

Thank you Lord Jesus for your beautiful
and precious word.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1819
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.74.22

Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 9:33 pm:

AND IT IS His WORD THAT is not bound by HH chains and extra biblical teachings...I am deeply thankful for HIS precious word...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1821
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.83.218

Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:15 am:

Thy word have I hidden in my heart so that I might not sin against thee...

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 7:40 pm:

There is a reason I made the statement, �The basic motivation of the leaders of HH is money.� First let me suggest that Blair started out in New York with a heart for God and was a blessing to the Body of Christ. At some point during the many name changes and moving of his church he has possibly fallen from God�s grace and I expect is a disappointment to Christ. If one thinks about the community and the church and the day to day operations it is obvious that acquiring revenue is a major objective. Many of the activities are designed for this purpose. When the end of each day arrives, do they ask themselves �How many souls have we won for Christ today?� Or do they ask themselves �How many people did we introduce to Jesus?� No, they do not!

In Matthew 21:12 we see that Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves. If he were walking the earth today and came upon Homestead I suggest He would turn over all the tables they have and chastise them for their behavior.

As for the way they treat the visitors, they welcome them and their money but when it is time for church, they send them away and close the gates. What would Jesus do? Let�s look at what he did!

In Mark 2:16-17 we read,� And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.�

I was a part of the revenue acquiring process for quite some time. We were always looking for ways to make more and more money. Finding lost souls and bringing them to Christ was NOT an objective. Introducing people to Jesus was NOT an objective. Why do you think they, the powers at HH, are so worried about public opinion? Public opinion is DIRECTLY related to public spending. If folks admire you they will visit and spend money. The fair; the Deli; the Barn; the pottery shop; the Woodshop; the Gristmill; all created to generate income. And a VERY IMPORTANT fact, except for some books and a few items in the Barn, you will not find any evidence of Christianity at any other building. No scripture on the walls. No mention of Jesus or the Bible anywhere on the Deli menu; not even a simple scripture. Look around while taking the walking tour. If someone accused them of being a group of Christians I doubt there would be enough visible evidence to convict them. If one did not know them one could consider they are just a bunch of folks that dress and act the way people did 100 years ago. Sort of a working living museum if you please.

Prax, what do you think Jesus would do if He visited HH today? Would he get behind a counter and help them sell their merchandise or would He turn over some tables and preach to lost souls?

common_sense
Advanced Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 996
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.141.52.225

Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 8:39 pm:

SG, I decided to check out your assertions for myself and spent some time browsing the HH website. Any mention of faith, the Bible, God, Christianity, etc. is glaringly absent. All the evidence pointed to a "working living museum" as you suggested.

I was reminded of this from Prax:
Remember, so much of how HH lives and work is
built upon the solid foundations of Christian
pioneers. That is why so many of the petty and
vapid criticisms fall to the ground, they really
are an attack on the very concept of Christian
community.

The HH website does indeed promote community. It extolls the virtues of pioneers. But Christianity? Haven't found it yet -- I'll keep looking.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1822
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.19.89

Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:27 pm:

Not even their "church" is called a church it is Santa Fe Hall...
Maybe they should have named it Kingdom Hall...that would have at least been more spiritual...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1823
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.19.89

Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:29 pm:

Not even their "church" is called a church it is Santa Fe Hall...
Maybe they should have named it Kingdom Hall...that would have at least been more spiritual...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1824
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.19.89

Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:35 pm:

Not even their "church" is called a church it is Santa Fe Hall...
Maybe they should have named it Kingdom Hall...that would have at least been more spiritual...

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 524
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.147

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 9:28 am:

MJ, a new member and friend of mine, made a bunch of cross-stitched book marks for the fair. She did beautiful work. But when she went to hand them in, over half of them were turned down because they had a cross shape or a cross on them or the word "cross" on it. When she asked why, she was told they might be offensive to a visitor.

We were so desperate to conform to the group and be accepted that we didn't see this red flag. To deny the cross of Jesus... or to be ashamed of it... And they say the fair is their big out reach of the year... I saw some scripture there, heard some songs about the blood, (which the song leader was later rebuked for sing during an HH meeting,) but not a mention of the "cross" of Jesus. Just like you will NOT hear the Gospel preached at the fair. I never heard it preached in any meeting in my seven years at HH. I never saw an unbeliever become a believer in Jesus while in HH.

Now, I have heard stories of it back in NY some twenty to thirty years ago.

There were some Israeli couples when HH was in Colorado who came to believe in their "Jesus in the flesh"... in HH authority and submission and how this saves them... But that was the closest thing I ever even heard of unbeliever becoming believers happening.

In seven years, I never saw it. I saw current believers come to HH and then learn of a different Jesus and a different Gospel that focused on their own "cross," their sacrifice and the blood of participation in the body, (the HH community.)

Has anyone else seen, while HH has been in Waco, Texas, since 1990-ish, an unbeliever saved?

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 975
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:25 pm:

Hi Folks,

I'll just first point out that by her silence F_H is joining into the chorus of the ranters that HH is motivated by money (and a cult, like a Kingdom Hall and such).

And any sincere person who has been involved with HH, even if they left in various circusmstances, would never make the lucre accusation, it is so absurd. Men and women in ministry who pour out their lives in service, who forsook other kingdoms to serve God .. and the tawdry crew of posters here takes such an absurd (laughable, if it wasn't so sick) potshot from their safe distance of the Fellowships of None.

Oh, would that the pentecostal and messianic and baptist and reformationist and charismatic churches had similar dedication, balances, efforts and service for the kingdom of God. Folks who have been around the chruch world awhile are well aware of the deep needs. And how HH follows and even sets a real standard (again, true even if one has distance and differs on this and that).

It is sad to see the sickness and confusion of these oppos that they would actually degrade themselves to such a degree with such a transparent accusation of convenience, only meant to deceive.

And yet once again, the very same scripture verses
cries out against these men and women of loose tongues ...

Please read this slowly and carefully,
asking the Lord Jesus to touch your hearts ..

1 Peter 3:15-16
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready always to give an answer
to every man that asketh you a reason
of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience;
that, whereas they speak evil of you,
as of evildoers,
they may be ashamed that falsely accuse
your good conversation in Christ.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:52 pm:

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:55 pm:

I was a part of the revenue acquiring process for quite some time. We were always looking for ways to make more and more money. I speak from experence. Prax remembers a very distant time.
BIG DIFFERENCE!!

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 977
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 10:15 pm:

Please notice how S_G tries to hide the word of
God by repeating the very same accusastion post
that the readers here who are truly familiar with
the heart and labors and dedication and service
and helps of the HH ministry will know to be
simply false, the worst type of cheap tin
accusation of convenience.

Better to allow the conviction of the Holy Spirit
to touch your heart than to try to mask the word
of God.

Shalom,
Paxaluh

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 10:23 pm:

In Matthew 21:12 we see that Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves. If he were walking the earth today and came upon Homestead I suggest He would turn over all the tables they have and chastise them for their behavior.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 10:24 pm:

In Mark 2:16-17 we read,� And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.�

common_sense
Advanced Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 997
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.235.230.61

Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 11:40 pm:

...dedication, balances, efforts and service for the kingdom of God.

That's the point! If the grist mill, the woodshop, the bakery, the fair, etc. are all meant as service for God, why is God not mentioned on the website promoting those money-making ventures? I am asking in all sincerity -- what is HH's reasoning?

...HH follows and even sets a real standard...

Is anyone denying that HH follows and sets standards? As far as I can tell, the question is whether those standards are biblical or not.

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 978
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 7:26 am:

Hi C_S,

If you are asking in all sincerity we may call for the trumpets as a new day has arrived !

The answer is not real complicated and it is a legit question. Although the music is Gospel and the literature touches many Christian aspects why are not the Fair and the businesses using that in their leadin ?

The world has an image of Christians as one-dimensional, impractical and much more (a big topic in itself). And this can be overcome when a believer develops a relationship with another. Paul speaks to this issue clearly in his "unto the Jews I became as a Jew .. To the weak became I as weak" discourse in 1 Corinthians 9. To a homesteader as a homesteader. To the home schooler, the community person, the family-oriented, the farmer, the environment-friendly, the craftsman the seeker, the inquisitive, the searcher .. here is are efforts and life to view, to see, to study. Come and be with us and share together.

Interestingly, Paul is often accused (even vitriolically) of deception for what he shares in 1 Corinthian 9. So it is no surprise that believers who are similarly transparent and sans jargon will be accused as well.

There is more that could be said on this. What attracted me in the witness from HH, how the Christian churches do follow their scripts, and more.

However I would prefer to keep the focus on the simple. You asked a fair question and it likely is asked by some to HH. For the forum, however, I have offered a bit of my sense and understanding.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 525
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.187

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:18 am:

HH is soooooo far from transparent!

Has anyone seen, while HH has been in Waco, Texas, since 1990-ish, an unbeliever saved?

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 526
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.187

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 11:36 am:

And any sincere person who has been involved with HH, even if they left in various circusmstances, would never make the lucre accusation, it is so absurd. Men and women in ministry who pour out their lives in service, who forsook other kingdoms to serve God .. and the tawdry crew of posters here takes such an absurd (laughable, if it wasn't so sick) potshot from their safe distance of the Fellowships of None.

to serve God?????

Only if BA is God.

They build HIS vision...his village, his businesses� Print his literature. Keep his house, his garden, his children, his getaway. Build his son's home... help furnish their autos.

Do you think God cares about the cattle if they are not raised to feed the hungry? Do you think he cares about the furniture if it is not made for those who have none? How about their bread, their gardens, their crops? How much of it goes to the hungry? How many orphans have the people of HH took in like the Shakers did?

My opinion:

They have a great tourist attraction. I have read people talking about it on the web. Some expressed they were surprised to find out that it was a religious/Christian community because they saw no mention of God during their visit there or to the web site.

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 527
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.187

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 11:39 am:

My opinion: (remember you asked for it)

And just what have they done to serve God???

Do they feed the hungry?

Have a prison ministry?

How about a hospital visitation ministry? (They do visit their own when they are sick at home and take them meals if they are not too busy with other hh work. As I saw the tourist side of HH increase, I saw less of helps even for members.)

Dig wells and set up medical clinics in third world countries?

Fathers to the fatherless?? (In my opinion, the men are too busy to be fathers to their OWN son's.

A single sister shared my land in TX. She worked HARD day and night to put food on her table and still did volunteer work for HH. My husband took her children fishing with ours. I saw no one else in hh be a father to that boy except to discipline him. She told me she wasn't even allowed to go to Sunday meetings because the children�s birth dad had called HH a cult and might make complications for HH. Though I think once the boy was old enough to "work" productively he would be taken under a brother and put to work.)

Prax... really.... what are they doing for God???? Let's see... they are working day and night writing and printing literature that "one day" people will come to them for and be enlightened and saved. I wonder if it will be for sale? And at what price? Total submission to HH authority? That is the price I expect it will be. How many missionaries did HH help until they found out they would not receive total submission to HH leadership in return? I know of at least two.

A saying I often heard in HH when we asked about missions was, "What do we have to do with the starving in Biafria?" (sp) Another was, "It is like pouring water into buckets with holes." (The first time I heard the bucket saying was when I was first visiting and planned on washing my elderly neighbor's windows.)

That is the lost and the needy... buckets with holes... unless HH used the ministry of the person(s) to look good. In my seven years at HH the only non-members I knew of receiving any help from HH was an elderly man/neighbor, and much was made of it. Oh, yeah.. I was so blessed, (and very surprised,) to see that they gave FREE ice-cream cones to some school children when they visited... until I saw the "ministry" to these children on the slide show at the fair for public display.

Seven years... in seven years... I should have seen more, lots more. I saw more than that in a week at the church I now attend.

Now is their, (the leaders,) motivation money?... I would never accuse them of that because I can't know their motives. But... Neither can I deny it. They are free to get on here and deny it if they wish and so are you, my conscience wont allow it. In my opinion too much points to it for me to defend them. Personally, I think more points to power than money. But again it is not fair to judge their hearts. I will leave that to God.

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 528
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.187

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 11:45 am:

My opinion continued:

As for the members... I feel they think they are laying down their lives for God. They have no monetary advantages to their service. It is just the opposite. They took their once "home based" business and put them under the direction of the leaders and I think they do not receive the monetary reward they would get otherwise for their work. They spend many hours days and nights, all night, working, "volunteering," printing and building HH buildings and assets. They build fences and lay beautiful rock structures, even their culverts are perfect. For their complete non-blemished and sacrifices to HH they will receive salvation. [not]

The churches around, (those who HH see as the harlot church and unsaved,) are feeding the hungry, visiting in prisons and hospitals, helping orphans and at risk youth, sending money and people to missions for nothing in return. But they will receive blessings here and their reward in heaven, even if HH thinks they are pouring water into buckets with holes in them.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?'

40 And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, F189 you did it to me.'

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44 Then they also will answer, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?'

45 Then he will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 980
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 12:27 pm:

F_H
to serve God????? Only if BA is God.

Yet another form of the same blasphemy as earlier.
Sad to see such depths of animosity and confusion.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 529
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 3:16 pm:

I did NOT say he WAS God.

I just said he is the one whose will is being done at HH.

You are the one saying it is God's will.

Sad to see such depths of confusion, denial and deception.

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 531
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 4:56 pm:

There is hope for us all.

I once believed something like this... and thought I would stand on the right side...

For I was hungry and you baked home made wheat bread to sell, I was thirsty and you dug a well and set up a windmill for your tourist attraction, I was a stranger and you welcomed me to buy your wares and see your craftsmanship and supposed self-sufficiency, I was naked and you raised sheep, spun wool and used a loom to make clothing to show and sell, I was sick and you took care of me as long as I submitted to your leaders and they gave you permission, I was in prison and you said there I would be also if HH wasn't my salvation.'

Then God led us:

James 1

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind...

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man's religion is vain. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Galatians 5

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Too all of us:

If we ask God HE will show us what HIS will is. Are we kept or keeping too busy to ask, let alone do what He will show us? Are we free to do what He shows us or have we given up our liberty to be led by the Spirit? Are we keeping ourselves untainted by hiding under the cover and rules of man made religion or by walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh?

May God help us all walk according to the Spirit's leading and may we encourage each other to walk in the Spirit and do the work of God.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 146
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 6:43 pm:

I think more points to power than money.

The two go hand in hand. I've never known anyone who desires one and not the other.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 6:55 pm:

tawdry crew of posters here takes such an absurd (laughable, if it wasn't so sick) potshot

Prax,

You, ol' evil one, are the sick one. You call all the posters you disagree with all kinds of names.
You disgrace the name of Jesus by your posts. All the readers can see through your words your true form.
Shameful it is!

But hey, you help us make our point.
You have the same attitude and pride and arrigance as the HH leaders and since they won't post you take their place.
And the world can witness what we speak of by reading your posts. Thanks!

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 981
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 6:55 pm:

Hi Folks,

Please note this two-faced presentation from F_H-

Now is their, (the leaders,) motivation money?... I would never accuse them of that because I can't know their motives. But... Neither can I deny it. They are free to get on here and deny it if they wish and so are you, my conscience wont allow it. In my opinion too much points to it for me to defend them. Personally, I think more points to power than money. But again it is not fair to judge their hearts. I will leave that to God.

You would do better to ask God to simply restrain
you from double-tongued syrupy asp speech.
And say nothing.

James 3:11-12
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries?
either a vine, figs?
so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 148
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 6:58 pm:

double-tongued syrupy asp speech

The foul words keep coming and keep coming.

Shameful, just shameful.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 149
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 7:01 pm:

Well,

I'm headed for Sunday night church.

Prax, you might find a place and search your heart. And ask Jesus for a cleansing.
You need it.

Back tomorrow night.............

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 983
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 8:08 pm:

F_H,
The following part had its own special irony.

"They are free to get on here and deny it if they wish..."

With S-G lying outright that HH is "in it for the money"
.. a bald-faced lie straight from the pit ...

And with you so, F_H so confused that your tongue ties in knots saying -

"..not really .. yes .. maybe ... I dunno .. sort of .. oh aren't I so fair"

You have the absolute gall to say -

"They are free to get on here and deny it if they wish..."

As if the wicked tounges of accusation and
calloused hearts here really would care one whit
or one bit for a HH 'denial' of .. something ..

Or perhaps you seek a 'denial'of your confused
two-faced mutterings of accusation.

Amazing.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

PS.
Oh, I noticed S_G is back to his insincere
imitation, parrot routine ... that is also
ironic.

common_sense
Advanced Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 998
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.141.53.85

Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 8:49 pm:

Prax,
Why are the HH operations so focused on making money? Where does all the money go?

What did you mean by "other kingdoms" here: Men and women in ministry who pour out their lives in service, who forsook other kingdoms to serve God ..

What do you consider "any true form
of Christianity"?

Interesting application of 1 Cor. 9. So, are you saying that HH members make themselves slaves to homesteaders, homeschoolers, woodworkers, farmers, etc. in order to preach the gospel? How far must the relationship progress before the gospel is shared? What happens when the homesteader, homeschooler, woodworker, farmer, etc. forsakes that vocation in favor of city life, public schooling, mass-produced furniture, and grocery stores? Does HH contine to make themselves slaves to them?

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1825
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.66.15

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:42 am:

no they cannot be "slaves" to any other type kingdom other than what will benefit a chosen few...ask those that wanted to go to collage...or wanted to be something else...

Their slave mentality is sickening...we are LOVE SLAVES to GOD and HIS work... not to the ever monry making invented hh society.

I just came from the woods to pick up some saints that had to work the past couple days and dropped by the house to pick up more supplies...we are enjoying a beautiful retreat during this carnaval season in Brazil...
Yesterday 5 we baptized...last night an all night prayer meeting where God spoke to many of our people...
Yes. where we are camping is very much away from everything right in the middle of the woods...

No one but God is in our area and us and the owners of the land...
Am leaving to go back just thought I would ask for prayer as God is moving in a tremendous way...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1826
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.66.15

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:46 am:

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 532
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.123

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:57 am:

I'll just first point out that by her silence F_H is joining into the chorus of the rafters that HH is motivated by money (and a cult, like a Kingdom Hall and such).

First you tell me I am guilty by my silence and demand I say something. Then I say something and you don't like it and say I was better off saying nothing.

"If you have nothing good to say, say nothing."

I was taking that position until you railed me for my silence.

I will not judge the heart of the HH "apostle." I have always given him the benefit of the doubt and considered him deceived by the enemy as I was when I was in HH. How could I judge him for that? I think he really believes he is God's voice and authority over the members and the details of their lives.

I saw his power over the members. I felt it in my own life for seven years. It is great and unquestionable. Whether or not power is a �motive� for the totality in his control of their lives and business I won�t judge. I think he sees his control and power as a way to eternally "save" them. I was told by my group leaders to pray for Bro. Blair because the weight of our salvation was on his shoulders.

People say that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I can just say that from what the eye can see, the ear can hear, and my heart felt for seven long years that the power is there and it is as close to absolute as I have ever seen. I see danger and that is why I post here.

Unlike SG I was never apart of the revenue system of HH. I have no inside information to either confirm or deny his opinion so I chose to remain silent about the money subject. Prax used my silence to accuse me so I feel to answer with what I know.

The financial report of HH is not shared with the members like it is in most churches. I have no idea what their salaries are or how much money was taken in or where it was spent. Some things are obvious like the needs of some areas and the extravagance of others. But as to why they were the way they were, I never concerned myself. I did read some business papers and I do know that HH takes �it�s portion� of the sale and the members are still expected to tithe from what they take home.

HH has a lot of assets, any human I can see that. I DON'T fault them for that, it is NOT a sin.

I saw all the free labor of members being poured out day and night, the sacrifices, the "laying down of their lives" in a very literal sense to see that the "vision" was accomplished and their hope for salvation in tact. I just assumed that the building of assets was more the result of abundant free labor in the guise of "laying down your life" than money.

The money never concerned me. There seems to be MUCH more serious things to be concerned about; the power and abuse of power being near the forefront, but behind the natural deception and spiritual deception, especially the false gospel of HH and its eternal consequences.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1827
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.66.15

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 10:02 am:

no they cannot be "slaves" to any other type kingdom other than what will benefit a chosen few...ask those that wanted to go to collage...or wanted to be something else...

Their slave mentality is sickening...we are LOVE SLAVES to GOD and HIS work... not to the ever money making invented hh society.

I just came from the woods to pick up some saints that had to work the past couple days and dropped by the house to pick up more supplies...we are enjoying a beautiful retreat during this carnival season in Brazil...
Yesterday 5 we baptized...last night an all night prayer meeting where God spoke to many of our people...
Yes. where we are camping is very much away from everything right in the middle of the woods...

No one but God is in our area and us and the owners of the land...
Am leaving to go back just thought I would ask for prayer as God is moving in a tremendous way...

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 888
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.236.242

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 5:53 pm:

Hello everybody,
Between work and the advise of a good friend ("You lie with dogs, you get fleas") I have steered clear of FN lately.

Some comments have been made lately that must be addressed though. Especially the idea that HH does not witness or spread the Gospel.

I see that higher up on this thread several of the HH accusers are railing at HH for not "reaching out to the lost".

FH said this;

...you will NOT hear the Gospel preached at the fair.

One point that must be made here, is if HH was actively reaching out to visitors to their Fair's and other events, then FH and her gang would be railing at HH for using "aggressive cult recruiting tactics".

The other point is, Yes, HH is very active in the local Community. Singing Christian songs in Nursing Homes, praying for the elderly folks there, helping in any way possible. They host hundreds of free field trips at their Farm, and many times God uses them to Minister to the folks who come to them during these trips. They are currently involved in an outreach in one of the poorest and most crime ridden area of Waco.
These are just examples off the top of my head, I am sure there is more.

This is just a simple example of the insanity that the HH opposition daily indulges in here on FACTNet.

__________________________________________________

Also, Serpent, where art thou?

Our friend Glory_seeker has committed a variety of grammatical mistakes, and has fallen prey to your arch nemesis, the fearsome ad hominem. You must come quickly and correct her errors like you did mine!
If you do not, I will be forced to consider your fangs to be worthless and empty of venom, and your hiss to be the hiss of a hypocrite.

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 533
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 7:17 pm:

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 889
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 8:34 pm:

Hello FH,

Your above post is shocking to me.

You have spent countless hours here on FN, piling up false accusation after false accusation after false accusation against HH. You have stood while folks called HH "Nazis". You have joined in and called HH a cult. You have stood by while the Watchmen scoundrels called the members of HH heritics.

You have done all in your power to cause HH as much grief as possible, and yet, you have the nerve to state "I am soooo glad you shared the good news."

The "Good News" of what Robin?

In your twisted world, how can HH even be able to Teach real "Good News"?.
You and your assembled accusers have called HH every name in the book, and yet, when the occasion calls for it, you lose all the self righteousness and put on some kind of act about how happy you are for HH.

It just reeks of hypocrisy.

wise_as_a_serpent
Junior Member
Username: wise_as_a_serpent

Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 8:35 pm:

Also, Serpent, where art thou?

Busy with work and more important things.

Our friend Glory_seeker has committed a variety of grammatical mistakes, and has fallen prey to your arch nemesis, the fearsome ad hominem. You must come quickly and correct her errors like you did mine!

I see no Glory seeker posting on FACTNet. I do see a SeekingGlory. I will assume that this is who you mean. I�m sure it was only a slip of the fingers, and not a backhanded snide commentary towards her.

If you do not, I will be forced to consider your fangs to be worthless and empty of venom, and your hiss to be the hiss of a hypocrite.

Please to point out where she attacks somebody personally. The only place in the entire posting would be:

Prax,

You, ol' evil one, are the sick one. You call all the posters you disagree with all kinds of names.

This appears to be in response, in like kind, to Praxaluh�s posting. I don�t condone it. I think we all can and should be above such childishness.

Now, shall I include all the places that you or Praxaluh have used ad hominem attacks in just this post alone? Be not hasty Master Pot in calling the Kettle black. For when you point your finger at somebody, know that three fingers are pointing back at you.

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 534
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 8:47 pm:

The "Good News" of what Robin?

1.Singing Christian songs in Nursing Homes praying for the elderly folks there, helping in any way possible.

2.They are currently involved in an outreach in one of the poorest and most crime ridden area of Waco.

3. That HH no longer considers them buckets with holes in them....

Of course I still think HH doctrine is dangerous, but I sincerely doubt HH is sharing their doctrine with these people.

I am just glad that they are even considering helping the needy. That is a positive change.

common_sense
Advanced Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 999
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 68.127.85.159

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 8:50 pm:

Your above post is shocking to me.

I have to admit, it was shocking to me, too. I was shockingly convicted to realize that I would never have responded with the love and grace and gentleness that FH did. The fruit of the Spirit is so evident in her reply, and I for one am blessed and humbled.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 890
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:05 pm:

"I am just glad that they are even considering helping the needy."

FH, this is exactly what bothers me so much.

It is like the guy who said "I am so happy that Mr. Jones has stopped beating his wife."

_________________________________________________

CS,
There is a term somone here on FN coined that describes you perfectly.

FACTNet lemming.

You run with the crowd, doing just enough "research" to pat yourself on the back for it, yet never having the integrity to actually look the person in the eye that you are calling a heritic and a Nazi.

I sincerely hope you avoid the destiny awaiting most lemmings.

common_sense
Advanced Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 1000
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.133.197.217

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 10:03 pm:

Dowen,
A lemming, huh? I'll have to give that some thought.

I don't recall ever calling anyone a heretic or Nazi, though.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 891
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 10:28 pm:

Hey CS,

Anyone who reads the daily barrage of posts of FN can see a certain kind of bizarre "anti-cult hysteria" that takes over when people begin attacking various Churches and Religious movements. I have seen it on almost all of the threads here.
Someone says "I had a bad experience at X Church", and suddenly, there is a handful of folks who have no idea what X Church is actually about, all jumping on X Church and concurring that it is indeed an 'evil cult'.

I think calling these people 'FN lemmings' is a perfect way to describe their behaviour.

True, you haven't directly called anyone at Nazis or heretics. You have supported those who have leveled those charges though. You have stood by and done absolutely nothing when those charges were made. You have, by your silence, made it clear that you have no problem with those kinds of accusations. Just as Saul had Steven's blood on his hands, you have blood on your hands.

common_sense
Senior Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 1001
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 67.125.106.45

Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 10:43 pm:

Wow! First a lemming, now a murderer?! Apparently, asking questions about HH is a serious offense.

http://www.batteredsheep.com/checklist.html

wise_as_a_serpent
Junior Member
Username: wise_as_a_serpent

Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:49 am:

The other point is, Yes, HH is very active in the local Community. Singing Christian songs in Nursing Homes, praying for the elderly folks there, helping in any way possible. They host hundreds of free field trips at their Farm, and many times God uses them to Minister to the folks who come to them during these trips. They are currently involved in an outreach in one of the poorest and most crime ridden area of Waco.
These are just examples off the top of my head, I am sure there is more.

Call me skeptical, if you want, I only desire proof of your assertions DOwen. I won�t just say �liar� liar� like some do when a poster makes a statement, I shall keep an open mind until I see proof one way or another. Being in Homestead Heritage has given me a certain dosage of skepticism. It is one of the main reasons that I left. Instead of �yeas being yeas, and nahs being nahs�, answers were couched in partial truths, not outright lies, but truths that were incomplete so that one would draw a different conclusion that what was actually the case (read about Aaron and the golden calf for a illustrative lesson). Yes, what I would call deception, you may differ with me, that is your prerogative. Their response to it was that they were just being �wise as a serpent�. If you want an example of this, I will relate to you the Arizona fellowship, that was a part of Homestead Heritage, then was never a part.

Let�s look at your statement regarding nursing homes. This was never done the entire time I was a member. Is this a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, decadal occurrence? Has it been going on for a day, week, month, year, decade or longer? How are they helping �in any way possible�? Reading books, changing bedpans, bringing cookies? Is it a single home or multiple homes? Is anybody in the Nursing Home related to a member of Homestead Heritage? These are questions that if answered would either make or break your assertions as truthful or not.

For example, if you show that they go to four different nursing homes twice a month on a rotating basis, bring cookies, sit and talk with the residence, sing to them and take walks with some, and have been doing this for 4 years, then this goes a long way to disproving accusations made by other posters. (A good refutation with facts does more to silent critics than many personal attacks against a poster.) If you show that they have gone to one nursing home, three times in the past 2 years, and sang and prayed with one of the elder�s relatives, then that would make your assertion somewhat less credible.

Similar information about the outreach in Waco would be necessary to make a proper evaluation. Outreach could mean a food pantry, counseling or simply that they have a prospective member living there.

edit - changes in italics

(Message edited by wise_as_a_serpent on February 20, 2007)

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 984
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 12:35 pm:

serp..
"Similar information about the outreach in Waco
would be necessary to make a proper evaluation."

And I'm quite sure that whatever is the precise
nature of the outreach would not meet the high bar
of acrimony of the oppos, in their 'proper evaluation'.

Based on the nature of their 'evaluations' of
topics like the junque (would be funny, if it
weren't so sad) 'they are in it for the money'.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1828
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.34.110

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 1:55 pm:

I know a group of them goes to a nursing home mom told me that. I wonder how many of them at the home have got saved? or even Baptized?

Pressure drives people to do a lot of things...this board is helping the cause so we will continue writing...

wise_as_a_serpent
Junior Member
Username: wise_as_a_serpent

Post Number: 43
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 3:36 pm:

Missionary Lady: How many were saved is not important. We are not in a number's game to put another notch on our spiritual belt. It is the doing of God's Will that is important. We are responsible for God's Word and Will to us, not that somebody else will accepts it (unlike Islam, we can't force people to convert). So a group that saves 100 people may be ranked better than a group that saves 2 in our eyes, not maybe not God's.

Yes, pressure does become a strong motivationing force (that's why peer pressure is what it is), but I can't and won't say that is the reason behind Homestead Heritage visitng nursing homes. God didn't invite me in on that conservation.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1831
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.72.1

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 5:59 pm:

yes, I agree numbers are not important. BUT it is imporant to get people saved and that was what I was trying to express. It is not enough to go sing some songs..we are in the work of the Lord to see a world saved.
God will require of us our best...nothing less...Noah was a preacher and eight souls were SAVED...He was sucessful! I agree to the fact that their are thousands that say they know Christ but have no clue who He really is...
I live in a world of idol worship. A world steeped in Roman practices. In Brazil alone each year over 100 thousand women in Brazil are victims of human trafficking for purposes of sexual exploitation. Little girls are sold on the sidewalks for sex. Thousands of children roam the streets with no where to go...sniffing glue...
People work in my aera for 5 dollars a day! I cannot buy into a gospel that polishes the same people over and over again while millions rush off into hell and have NEVER heard the name of Jesus.
Well, this is not a missionary thread but I weep to see people with great talents singing to themselves, living to themselves while God's world is hungry..I refuse to eat my bread alone...
and singing bluegrass at a fair is not going to save the world!

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1832
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.72.1

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 6:36 pm:

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1833
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.72.1

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 6:42 pm:

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1834
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.72.1

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 6:54 pm:

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 892
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 7:10 pm:

"I weep to see people with great talents singing to themselves, living to themselves while God's world is hungry..I refuse to eat my bread alone...
and singing bluegrass at a fair is not going to save the world!"

Mrs. Alvear, how in the world can you say something like this with a straight face?
What do you think motivated HH to want to work with you several years back?
If HH really is what you say they are, then why in the world did they donate thousands to your ministry and come to Brazil on numerous occasions?

Your bitter hatred of HH is driving you mad!

__________________________________________________

Hello Wise,

I would like to say that I appreciate your post #43. Thanks for the integrity there.

As to your other post, about somehow proving HH's various outreach efforts, I will pass. No matter what is said by me or anyone else who supports HH, it is written off and discounted. Why should I think this case is different.
Your wife and her friend ML have made it clear that since I am not a member of HH, my words mean nothing. And if I WAS a member of HH, then they would just call me a poor little idiot, a lost and deceived lamb. Soooo, why should I just face that kind of barbaric treatment again?

The Truth is quite simple, and I encourage anyone who wants to find out more about HH's various outreach programs and missions, to simply get in touch with them because no matter what I say, I will be railed at and discredited. Mrs. Alvear will likely pull one of her silly little "Shut up DOwen, I don't care what you have to say," and then in the next post, "Why doesn't DOwen answer me? Maybe because he can't? DOT DOT DOT.

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 987
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 7:38 pm:

Daniel,
"And if I WAS a member of HH, then they would
just call me ...."

And you left out 'brainwashed', their fav.

Meant to hand-wave away every testimony, every
life changed, every victory and beautiful move
of God within the brothers and sisters at HH.

Why .. they are simply 'brainwashed'.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 535
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 7:58 pm:

"I am just glad that they are even considering helping the needy."

FH, this is exactly what bothers me so much.

It is like the guy who said "I am so happy that Mr. Jones has stopped beating his wife."

I wouldn't of compared HH's past disinterest in missions to beating your wife. It is sad, yes, but... beating your wife? DO, do YOU compare the two to each other? Certainly you don�t think my answer to your question was that mean?

***********

Do these statements bother you? (I heard each of them multiple times at HH and so did others.)

FH: A saying I often heard in HH when we asked about missions was, "What do WE have to do with the starving in Biafria?" (sp) Another was, "It is like pouring water into buckets with holes." (The first time I heard the bucket saying was when I was visiting and planned on washing my elderly neighbor's windows.)

It was because of their lack of missions and other things, including these two phrases, during my seven years that I say, "I am just glad that they are even considering helping the needy."

Some of the truths about HH hurt. It hurts me. Now I hear they may have had a change and the hurt is lessened and I am blessed. I truly want the best of God for them.

I remember being at a Friday night meeting and PC sat up front and said he prays curses on DJ every time he thinks of him. Do you think that is what I do? Well I don't. I only pray good things for HH. Mostly I pray that God's Will will be done, because I can trust God to know what HH needs. That is how I pray for most people. I don't believe in cursing, that is an open door to trouble. We reap what we sew. But mostly the love of God for HH and even for others who some would consider enemies compels a Christian to pray in a loving way.

If as Christians we are to love our enemies, then why can't you believe I love the members and leaders of HH who are not my enemies?

Don't get me wrong, there are things about HH doctrine and practices that I despise, but the people I love. Surely since you are a Christian too, you can understand that.

HH had a fault, they changed it. I had faults I changed them. I have more faults to change and I am sure HH and everyone of us do. When we think we don't... then we have a serious problem. Surely HH leaders are humble enough to know there are needs even if they don't recognize the ones we want them to see. If they do then there will be more positive changes. And that will still bless me.

FH says: If the shoe fits... admit it. But know that even if you can't change your shoe size, you can change your shoes.

God, bless every person and every good work of HH and may Your will be done.

FH

wise_as_a_serpent
Junior Member
Username: wise_as_a_serpent

Post Number: 44
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:00 pm:

DOwen, by yours and Praxaluh�s passing, you are basically admitting to any casual or undecided reader to this site that your claims are empty. I don't think that is either of yours intention. If you have supporting evidence, then present it, let the chips fall where they may. A well written argument with supporting facts will go a lot further than a statement and a retreat (why should I just face that kind of barbaric treatment again?) I�m sure glad Jesus didn�t have that attitude.

ForeverHis was sincere in her post reacting to the outreach, but quite simply, you could not accept it.

Your wife and her friend ML have made it clear that since I am not a member of HH, my words mean nothing.

No, what they have tried to explain is that there is difference in being a member and not. Not being a member and being baptized into Homestead Heritage means that you will have a different level of knowledge of what goes on. A non-member wouldn�t have access to most of the literature (and some of the literature that I had access to is no longer generally available), wouldn�t have to have signed certain documents, wouldn�t have first hand knowledge of things stated at meetings. So there is a difference. There is just so much that as a non-member you didn�t go through (Although that sounds negative, I can�t think of the correct phrasing to make it neutral). On the other hand, as I have previously state, you have a perspective that some may not have in that your father is an elder. So, yes you do have something to bring to the table. Bring it, display it, and defend it, but keep your anger in check while doing so.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 893
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:59 pm:

Hello again WAAS,

No, I am not going to present something, "And let the chips fall where they may."

In a place where integrity is foremost, then possibly. Sadly, FACTNet is not such a place and folks like Mrs. Alvear have made it what it is by their random wierd comments, like the ones mentioned above where where she demands that I "Shut up", and then demand that I "answer her questions".
How in the world do you think that we can have a legitimate discussion about the workings of Jesus, in a place dominated by people who are so unlike Him?

Letting chips "fall where they may" means little more to me than tossing pearls before swine.
Swine who call my family Nazis.
Swine who accuse my friends and family of being child abusers.
Swine who mock HH daily, and call them money grubbers and power mad.
Swine who desire to cause HH as much grief and misery as possible.
Swine like the jackals at Watchman Fellowship who make a living off of sucking blood out of every Church they have a disagreement with.
Swine who tell people to shut up, and then mock them for being quiet.

These are the folks you are asking me to "let my chips fall where they may" with.

Sorry, I am not buying it. FACTNet is a classic "Kangaroo Court" and I do not wish to contribute any more to HH's trial therein.

__________________________________________________

P.S.
I did not write the above 'swine comments' out of anger. The accusers of HH have made their position clear, I am just reminding them of it.
DO

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 150
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 9:28 pm:

And the above post is from a HH elders son!

I rest.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 894
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:03 pm:

SeekingGlory,
Why do you refrain from displaying the same outrage when people call HH members Nazis?

Why?

What is worse, calling someone a Nazi or refusing to cast pearls before swine?

I could take the Nazi comments and say "SEE! See! This is what happens when bitterness and anger take someone over!!!"

What would be the difference?

Bottom line, your one-liner was nothing but inconsequential grade-school level childishness.

I am quite sure that the resident self appointed Hall monitor will turn a blind eye to your teenage antics, so I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to please, as the Hall monitor said, "Check your anger at the door".

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1835
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.122.39

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:27 pm:

Bottom line is really the truth bothers Daniel...He has produced no facts to disqualify anything that I have stated or anything anyone has said...
ART tried so hard to take up for HH but when he discovered their lies he stopped writing here. That is his choice...I will stand by everything I have stated about HH.
Daniel displays his upbringing right here on Factnet...lol

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1836
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.122.39

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:32 pm:

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1837
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.122.39

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:41 pm:

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 895
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:55 pm:

"Bottom line is really the truth bothers Daniel"

Actually, just the opposite.
The Truth set me free from bitterness and anger toward HH, and the Truth has provided me with Peace beyond measure.

"He has produced no facts to disqualify anything that I have stated or anything anyone has said... "

Anyone who has read even a small portion of the posts on this board will know your above words to be empty of truth.

"Daniel displays his upbringing right here on Factnet...lol"

What exactly does this mean Mrs. Alvear?
You obviously despise HH's way of doing things, and feel they have all sorts of things wrong, so I am forced to feel that you are mocking someone elses shortcomings. What a way for a Christian to act! I sincerely hope you do not feel that your words here are an example for other Christians to follow!

foreverhis
Advanced Member
Username: foreverhis

Post Number: 540
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.151

Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 11:54 pm:

Whoever called HH members Nazis shouldn't have done it. Could you be taking it out of context? Please post a link to the post. I don't remember seeing it.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1839
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.80.108

Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 9:54 am:

not all people who write at Factnet are swine and jackels...lol Daniel you have included yourself in your statement...

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 151
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 10:01 pm:

1. Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks? HH does!

2. Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers? HH does!

3. Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry? HH does!

4. Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation? Fits HH!

5. Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions? HH talks about it often.

6. Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"? At HH....Very much so!!!!!

7. Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God? According to HH...YES!

8. Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult? At HH not yet....but maybe soon?????

9. Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned? Their favorite words are...."it's the devil!"

10. Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests? Sometimes at HH...just sometimes.

11. Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion? YES!

12. Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances? This board proves this one.

"If you answered "no" to all of the above 12 questions, your church is very healthy. If you answered "yes" to three or more, your church is showing signs of being unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to six or more, your church is very unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to eight or more, your church is a full-blown authoritarian cult."

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 152
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 10:02 pm:

The above is my opinion based on my years there.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 896
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 11:47 pm:

Hello again SeekingGlory,

I found your above posted survey somewhat interesting, even as shallow as it was.

However, what I found interesting about it was not how you used it against HH, but rather how relevant it is in regard to radical views of our modern society.

With only a few exceptions or extremely minor changes, the 12 points contained in your survey could be easily used to condemn the very Nation in which you live.

In fact, radical Muslim's use those very same 12 points as a basis for murdering innocent people every day.

Just something to think about.

Of course, few people would be so mad as to accuse the Nation they live in of being an "evil authoritarian cult", but, if you have any integrity, you must admit that the very Nation you live in must also be a cult. According to the conditions laid out in the survey you posted, (and apparently support) then obviously, the US is the biggest cult of all.

I guess the question you need to ask yourself is; Why are you wasting your time in attacking a tiny little Church like HH? You truely have much larger fish to fry! If you actually believe in the principles laid out in your 12 conditions of Authoritarianism, then why are you piddling around and attacking HH?

[Mrs. Alvear's Church is also guilty of several of your 12 points, why are you not attacking her?

Hmm?

I'm just trying to promote integrity here.]

Personally, I think you are little more than a kindergarten bully, picking on those who will offer the least resistance.

Like I said above, your survey is shallow at best. But if you truly believe in it, then please realize the far reaching, and frankly absurd, implications contained therein.

(Message edited by dowen on February 22, 2007)

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1847
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.72.157

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:01 am:

Dowen does not even know me and has never been to my church.

The questions were:
Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks? HH does! NO my church does not...I have no control over information my people have...they are free to recieve any information...

2. Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers? HH does! No our church has never in 40 years ever put anyone to open shame...

3. Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry? HH does!

Questions are always welcomes in our mist...

4. Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation? Fits HH!
My husband never has claimed some special revelation...

5. Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions? HH talks about it often.
We are normal people and leaders. I doubt if my husband has ever heard about all those things HH uses to scare their people. Remember my husband is not an American and hates to even try to read in English and much less likes to write. He thinks Americans are strange people to start with...lol...and he hated HH.

6. Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"? At HH....Very much so!!!!! Never would this happen. We just had our retreat and 8 former members were with us singing and helping out. I just spoke last month at a church that at one time was affiliated with our group. No we do not think our people are the "only" ones so far ahead of other churchs...lol...
It stands to reason that not everybody is going to work together...There happens to be personalities conflicts and some people just do better in one plance than in another place.

7. Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God? According to HH...YES!

Lord have mercy NO...

8. Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult? At HH not yet....but maybe soon????? Our surrounding community comes to us for help I don't think they would if they thought we were a cult. One of our sisters is a nurse, a brother a nurse, a sister a lawyer and on and on...

9. Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned? Their favorite words are...."it's the devil!" NO, that is so stupid...We pass out papers to our people at times asking them how we can be better leaders, what they feel we are doing wrong etc...we need imput to be better leaders.

10. Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests? Sometimes at HH...just sometimes. We try to find out what is our peoples goal and help them achieve if possible...one boy wants to be a translator...we are helping him...one girl wants to get a good job and help her family we are trying to help her reach her goal. Sone of the yp want to learn sign language so we are paying someone to teach them...we have helped pay college for yp and special schooling for others...I don't know for sure if that is what the question meant but I have answered it the best I could...We put some boys through mecanic school...I cannot understand why HH would not want their kids to study in a higher school...

11. Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion? YES!

never..we do not practice shunning...we have never had a case where we would feel to even to something like that...
The Bible is full of people that had different opinions...

12. Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances? This board proves this one.

I cannot imagine my husband abusing someone...that is NOT his personality.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1848
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.72.157

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:03 am:

All churches have people that come and go...that is normal. How we treat them after they leave shows how much GOD we have in our hearts...

All churches that I have ever been to be it Baptist, Pentecostal, Full Gospel, or whatever are known by what they believe...How it is presented is very important. I have spoke at Full Gospel Men's fellowship here in Brazil, The big "downtown" Baptist church, spoke at the "boat" church on the seaside, spoke in the Assembly of God churches many times, done their state wide ladies meetings on occasions, spke at the UPC churches, and even spoke at a Catholic service at the request of the priest and spoke in a spiritist church! Do I believe all they teach? Of course not...but my Jesus is bigger than a church name. I do not belong to any of the above churches. I belong to a church called, Cathdral of Praise...
Some things we leave in the hand of God for Him to reveal...other things our life, its work tells the story.
I think 40 years on the field and over 10 thousand saved people tells its own story if I am real or not.
It does not matter what Dowen or Prax say I would like to see their fruits...for our Master said it is by a person's fruit we will know them. And I do not mean numbers I mean they could tell us what they are doing to promote the Kingdom of God...

wise_as_a_serpent
Junior Member
Username: wise_as_a_serpent

Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:04 am:

Questions are always welcomes in our mist...

I believe you mean 'in our midst' meaning among us. 'In our mist' would mean in the fog of confusion. And I'm sure Daniel or Praxaluh could have fun with that.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1849
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:33 am:

Daniel says, "I'm just trying to promote integrity here". and attacks our church and me and has never one time been to our church and does not even know us...

Daniel you must first know a church to talk about it...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1850
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:35 am:

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1851
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:53 am:

Most everyone knows I am a Oneness pentecostal believer. Everyone by now knows I have not said all is bad in HH I have said to me the bad outweighs the good.
This thread is not to discuss my beliefs I will gladly discuss them elsewhere but this thread is to discuss a so called church that does not even be up front with what they believe even to those who are considering being members...a so called church that has ever changing doctrines, a so called church that divides families, a so called church that has been accused of driving people to murder, a so called church that bows to every whelm of its leaders, a so called church that hides behind a doctrine that the members cannot even live much less those that make the rules, a so called church that lives in fear of someone telling on them, a so called church that does not even have open services for the public, a so called church that teaches the leaders are jesus come in flesh, a so called church that controls what the people read and see, a so called church that controls even the vacations people want to take...and on and on...

NO, my church is not like that...sorry Daniel try again...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1852
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:04 am:

Integrity Daniel is not a leader laughing to another person about the "jaded" folks at HH...

Daniel, why do you suppose ART quit writing here?

All you and Prax know to do is belittle other people but address the real issue you will not and neither will he...first because neither one of you are members of hh...and neither have put your life and soul in their hands...and I doubt if either will...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1853
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:14 am:

Among the thousands of churches I have visited see if you ever can find me anywhere on the net or in any place attacking or running down a church...that is not my habit...IF I write here it is because I see grave error and danger...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1854
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:17 am:

wise_as_a_serpent
Junior Member
Username: wise_as_a_serpent

Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:22 am:

In fact, radical Muslim's use those very same 12 points as a basis for murdering innocent people every day. So for clarification, are you saying that radical Muslims kill people because the people they kill supposedly adhere to the 12 points, or are you saying that radical Muslims adhere to those 12 points and that is their basis for killing.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1855
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:24 am:

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1856
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.91.73

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 10:28 am:

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 993
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 7:25 pm:

Mrs. Alvear, actually you are consumed with
attacking and running down a very fine church.

More than anybody I have ever seen you have given
yourself over to the spirit of accuser of the brethren,
railing against their 'good conversation in Christ'.

This is becoming your mark, your stain.

In contrast,
when I consider the heart of the brethren of HH,
this is the sense that I receive.

Philippians 1:8-11
For God is my record,
how greatly I long after you all
in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
And this I pray,
that your love may abound yet more and more
in knowledge and in all judgment;
That ye may approve things that are excellent;
that ye may be sincere and without offence till
the day of Christ;
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness,
which are by Jesus Christ,
unto the glory and praise of God.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1858
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.90.17

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:04 pm:

And you have given yourself over to protect something you know very little about and nothing about their more recent doctrines. Sad that someone so learned could be so blind...

And the servant of the Lord must not strive;

but be GENTLE unto all men..."

2 Timothy 2:24
That I did not see at HH...

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1859
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.90.17

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:22 pm:

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1860
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.90.17

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:25 pm:

The New Testament account describes false prophets confusing God�s people.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" 1Ti 4:1

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" -- Matthew 24:11

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1861
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.90.17

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:28 pm:

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. .....

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1862
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.90.17

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:49 pm:

If the watchman saw danger and did not sound the warning, and someone was killed or captured, then the watchman was to be held personally responsible.
God is going to hold a lot of people responsible for things that go on at HH...

I will continue to warn people. That is my job.

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 153
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 8:58 pm:

Daniel said...........I guess the question you need to ask yourself is; Why are you wasting your time in attacking a tiny little Church like HH? You truly have much larger fish to fry! If you actually believe in the principles laid out in your 12 conditions of Authoritarianism, then why are you piddling around and attacking HH?
Mrs. Alvear's Church is also guilty of several of your 12 points, why are you not attacking her?
Hmm? I'm just trying to promote integrity here.

My reply.....Daniel, rest assured I do not believe I am wasting my time writing about a tiny little church named Homestead Heritage. I have just begun my journey. If this tiny little church would close the gates and mind their own business just amongst themselves I would go away and fry my bigger fish. Instead they portray to the world one image and are in fact much different behind that fa�ade. My family was enticed by that veneer and subsequently deeply hurt by it. I and quite a number of other ex-members feel the need to offer a differing experienced view than what many people would otherwise see. I for one would feel remorse if I did not warn others about my experience at HH.

I am not familiar enough with Janice�s church to offer an opinion about her church. Also, her church did not deeply hurt my family so I have no reason to post about her. Please note that if any church in my future hurts my family the way HH did I will be just as determined to expose them. I also searched all over the internet prior to attending the church we now attend looking for warning signs from ex-members. If only this board had existed many years ago warning us about HH I could have prevented a grievous time in my families life.

Daniel said................Personally, I think you are little more than a kindergarten bully, picking on those who will offer the least resistance.

My reply............You and Prax are doing a pretty good job of putting up resistance to our posts. We drive in a nail and you attempt to pull it out. But the scar remains. And I know that you and your dad discuss this board often and Prax communicates with your dad and Howard so I consider that ample resistance.

Finally, I really hope you and Prax continue posting. Your insults and name calling can be considered stand-in statements from HH and helps us make our point.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1863
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.25.235

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 9:52 pm:

Seeking glory: I personally invite you over to visit me and our churches...please examine both and compare...
Come see the hundreds of families I have seperated the people I have shamed before the congregation the families that I have driven to do horrible things...Please do come over and talk to my people I personally will pay the translator for you to speak with my people without my presence so they can feel free to say anything they like...I think you will find a people that have a complete different outlook on God and his body...much different than HH..

know Daniel discusses things with his dad he even knew about my personal business.

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 995
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 11:50 pm:

We drive in a nail ... the scar remains.

Thank you, s_g.
An incredibly powerful and apt metaphor.

Shalom,
Praxaluh

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 996
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 9:41 am:

Nuff said.

This thread best closed.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1864
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.81.53

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 11:21 am:

afraid of truth? Why not be a real warrior and find out what HH really believes? You cannot do that for you are not even on level one with them..You defend what you do not even know...how sad for such a man as you...

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 997
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 5:07 pm:

Mrs. Alvear may not understand, others likely do.

A very deep element was brought forth with the boast ...

We drive in a nail ... the scar remains.

Those who have been involved in this campaign, please, think deeply ..
do you desire to be involved in driving in more nails ?
Is it really your mission ? To ..

...crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

common_sense
Senior Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 1003
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.226.64.141

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 5:40 pm:

Prax, I think you know very well that you are extracting a meaning from SG's words that he/she did not in the least intend. But by doing so, you seem to be equating HH with the Son of God. Talk about bringing forth a very deep element!

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 998
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 6:12 pm:

out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:34, Luke 6:45

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 999
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 6:20 pm:

Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him,
What are these wounds in thine hands?
Then he shall answer,
Those with which I was wounded
in the house of my friends.

pureheart
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart

Post Number: 439
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 6:58 pm:

I remember reading �seeking-glory� has very limited access to a computer. May I suggest abstaining from further comment about said expression until he/she has an opportunity to clarify? A desire for correct meaning should be primary.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1865
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.85.216

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 7:43 pm:

Prax says the thread is closed and comes back and writes on it...lol
I probably don't understand all your writings Prax you are right. But about HH you are dead wrong for I KNOW about them.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1866
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.85.216

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 7:51 pm:

Prax says the thread is closed and comes back and writes on it...lol
I probably don't understand all your writings Prax you are right. But about HH you are dead wrong for I KNOW about them.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1867
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.85.216

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 7:53 pm:

Prax says the thread is closed and comes back and writes on it...lol
I probably don't understand all your writings Prax you are right. But about HH you are dead wrong for I KNOW about them.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 897
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 8:17 pm:

ML,
I don't know who you think you are talking to here on FACTNet, but anyone with just a bit of common sense lightly passes over or ignores everything you write.
Sometimes it is comical to read your frantic multi-posts and realize how seriously you take yourself, but then you usually pull one of your John Kerry style flip-flops and you are exposed for the hypocrite that you truly are.

The sad thing is that I actually agree with many of the things you teach (Oneness etc.) and have in the past donated time and funds to the Oneness Pentecostal movement. Now I read pathetic posts like you put up daily and I wonder what kind of dragons I was supporting. Honestly, if you are representative of Christianity, then who can blame the thousands who look at Christians and say "No thank you".

seekingglory
Intermediate Member
Username: seekingglory

Post Number: 154
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.162.130.158

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 8:23 pm:

Prax said...........A very deep element was brought forth with the boast ...

We drive in a nail ... the scar remains.

Those who have been involved in this campaign, please, think deeply ..

do you desire to be involved in driving in more nails ?

Is it really your mission? To crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

SG replies.............Prax, you are really showing your evil spirit by trying to twist my words to fit your agenda.

You are one sick puppy................hiding behind head knowledge. Even Lucifer could quote scripture.

Integrity first; you say it; you should try it.

�Let Go and Let God�

found at www.chaplaincare.navy.mil/Devotions

As children bring their broken toys with tears for us to mend

I brought my broken dreams to God because he was my friend

But instead of leaving him in peace to work alone

I hung around and tried to help with ways that were my own

At last I snatched them and cried, "How could you be so slow?"

"My child," He said, "What could I do? You never did let go."

A few years ago I was straddled with memories of all the pain and heartache suffered

at the hands of a few HH elders. A friend told me to write down each bad memory

and nail it to a wall. Then walk away and leave it for God to handle. As I drive the nail

in I should remember God�s love for me. Even if someone comes along and removes

the nail the scar in the wall remains. Just seeing the scars will help me remember I gave

it to God so I could forget the pain. My nailing these memories is a means to let them go.

Prax, you and Daniel can pull the nails out as fast as I put them in but my seeing the

remaining scars will help me to forget. I pray by posting here I can spare someone

else the pain I and my family suffered.

Prax, I will repeat myself. You are wicked to twist words. Just plain wicked. God help you.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1868
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.50.138

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 9:53 pm:

Dowen, I don't even know what you are trying to say...I am a oneness missionary and have never denied that fact.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1869
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.50.138

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 10:10 pm:

Dowen, I don't even know what you are trying to say...I am a oneness missionary and have never denied that fact.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1870
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.50.138

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 10:14 pm:

Dowen, I don't even know what you are trying to say...I am a oneness missionary and have never denied that fact.

missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady

Post Number: 1871
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.50.138

Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 10:34 pm:

Dowen, I don't even know what you are trying to say...I am a oneness missionary and have never denied that fact.

still_learning
New member
Username: still_learning

Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 24.155.5.115

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 4:52 pm:

Praxaluh and SeekingGlory,

From casual observation reading this discussion board and what I know about Homestead Heritage, I would agree with Praxaluh that the leaders nor the people in HH are motivated by money whatever else they might be. There is no accumulation of wealth from what I can see. The leaders being treated well does not speak of money motavation.

Dowen,

Wise As A Serpent makes a valid point which you used a lame excuse for not answering. What would "reaching out" to a poor crime ridden neighbor hood or visiting a nursing home mean in the context of covenant community that believes and practices the way HH does gain from going out into the highways and byways so to speak? From what I have read and observed the process takes time, sometime years before one is allowed to make covenant and join the group. Helping people with no expectation of return (ever) would be a good thing.

So as the Wise Serpent ask if HH members did go off community and minister just to bless people, read stories, sing, etc I would find that remarkable and it could change my opinion somewhat regarding HH.

Simple question do HH members on a regular basis help people that are not a part of HH (not kinfolks or life long friends) that would never likely be a part HH just because it is the right thing to do

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 898
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 6:46 pm:

Hello StillLearning, thanks for the input.

I know some of the good things HH does for the community, and I am sure there is much more that I don't know about.
The problem, for me, is the rabid exmembers who will do who knows what to try and stop HH from doing any good in the community.
For example, if I were to share with this board that HH was going to conduct a street outreach at such and such a place, at such and such a time, that would be little more than a invitation for folks like the wolves at Watchman Fellowship to try and cause some disruption to those conducting the outreach.
You may think I am paranoid, but after reading the garbage these guys have posted here, and seeing first hand the things that Watchman have goaded people into doing, I wouldn't put it past them.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Watchman has already notified many local nursing homes about HH's "cult" status.

This is what I meant when I spoke of casting pearls before swine. Or in this case, wolves.

StillLearning, perhaps the best thing you could do is go to HH yourself and ask them what outreaches they are involved it. Then go and see it for yourself. If you like, I could put you into contact with someone at HH.

At one time, I also accused HH of not "Going into the highways and byways" enough. After asking a few questions, and seeing first hand how HH is reaching out to the community around them, those questions were answered.

I hope this helps, and if you are interested in contacting me, my e-mail is dowen21@msn.com

God bless,
DOwen.

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 899
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 9:47 pm:

One more thought.

The harsh reality is there are people out there who want to cause HH harm.
Whether it be on the web, or in the papers, or on TV or on the streets. These people are actively seeking to cause HH problems in every area that they can.

Lets look at some facts.

They have hired 'Cult hunting' professionals, using human lives as currency.

They have used the relatively unchecked freedom of the Web to viciously attack HH.

They are currently inciting the local paper to do some sort of 'investigative journalism' piece on HH.

Some of them have even 'picketed' HH events, (although quite feebly) carrying signs and banners and, if I remember correctly, some kind of PA system.

Bottom line, they have made it clear that they are nothing other than rabble rousers and instigators, busily sharpening pitchforks and lighting torches.

And now they are asking me to help them in their devious plot!

I do not feel that I owe them anything, and I will not fall prey to their carefully plotted game.

common_sense
Senior Member
Username: common_sense

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 71.137.159.200

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 9:57 pm:

Who exactly are "they"?

praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh

Post Number: 1000
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 10:04 pm:

still_learning
"the leaders nor the people in HH are motivated
by money whatever else they might be."

Well put. And I think you understand why I found this truly an astounding forum sideline accusation and responded forcefully. Some things go way beyond dumb.

Daniel, your caution on sharing too much information is well-founded and your warning appreciated. So many of the oppos have proven their ill-motives so we know that specific information will easily be misused. I have tried to avoid even initials of people (who are not here). btw, please say hi to your dad, since I didn't know I was having all this back-and-forth with him.

May those words meant as accusation turn to words of fellowship and peace and grace. In fact my best to any (who knows me, or not).

Shalom,
Praxaluh

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 900
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 10:06 pm:

CS,

"They" are those who are plotting, planning, and actively engaged in assaulting the Christians at HH.

I am sorry you missed that, I will try to improve on my word-smithery in future posts.

DOwen.

(Message edited by dowen on February 24, 2007)

dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen

Post Number: 901
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81

Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 10:08 pm:

Will do Prax, and thanks for your support.

God Bless,

Daniel.

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